Hart Family Crash - Pt 5- Pedal to the Metal continued

CPS call to 911 for sheriffs to do a welfare check. Sadly, the day the car was found.

Jenn looks like Teri Polo in that picture with the Bernie shirts, and I've no doubt she and the wife got "The Fosters" references all the time.

So all of this love and light were just trying to protect Osho’s image . The Hart’s likely were only passing members of the Osho group but w all of the bad press that Osho has gotten and is getting w the Netflix documentary , the Osho PR machine miscalculated by trying to get positive attention by being associated with this great family. I really do not think the Hart’s were really active members,

But now Osho will be linked w the hippy child killers and the bioterrorism attack,

Pretty much, R3.

Sarah and Jenn were involved with the festival scene going back to college days I read. The Beloved Festival, which posted a memorial to the family, has ties to Osho.

At link is an early story, featuring a video interview with Zippy Lomax and print quotes from Max Ribner and his girlfriend Kristina. All 3 were among those going the hardest to #protect the community

There have to be a lot of those types left in OR, no?

The death doula is also affiliated it is said. She was also all over the media.

Love and light!

And really I don’t think the Osho groupies are to blame. They really did not interact much w the Hart’s, saw them occasionally.. I bet the Osho leaders were like “oh crap... are we going to get blamed for this ?”

........

A lot of the language used in the writing did and by her defenders is from Osho. Not that it makes defending them ok in the least but it is kind of a parallel language of references, images, allusions. The Harts were involved in that scene since college so it could have had a considerable impact. We do not really know yet.

Ariana Huffington denies being involved in Osho?

How active is it really?

Confession time: I read a book by Osho. I could see how A. Huffington got sucked into it for a bit.

Why do these cults w Indian guys go horribly wrong? ....

Jonestown

Makes sense, the snap of Devonte lying fully on top of a musician in a tent, surrounded by people sitting along the walls, was said to have a Rajneesh vibe. Dunno.

Are there any reputable sites linking them to Rajneesh? The site linked at r596 of the last thread is a right-wing mess pushing a gay-men-are-communist-pedophiles-who-hate-Jesus agenda.

Are there any photos of the Harts at any gay pride events or Rainbow Family type evens? Say in Portland, or CA?

People in Portland have intimated on Twitter that they were part of a cult like group as are their big defenders - Zippy, Max and his girlfriend Kristina. Dozens have been posting #protect the community on social media. Some posts discussing the Harts specifically mentioned the teachings of Osho but later were edited to remove those references.

I do not know much about Osho and have yet to watch the doc on Netflix, but it was in Portland. Osho followers are organizers of the Beloved festival that they attended. A memorial to the family was posted on the website. There are several direct ties to Osho very close to them. The hugging thing with Devonte may relate to this, to them it relates to energy?

Another group, OneDoor, has also been mentioned as problematic, within their circle.

A lot of language and imagery used, water imagery, the many pics of meditating Hart kids, all go back to those teachings. Their crowd seem to believe in impermanence and reincarnation. Love and light!

r15, I haven’t seen any photos or evidence that they ever attended ANY gay ANYTHING.

Their primary focus seemed to be those Nahko musicians. And Bernie rallies. And Goonies fan club shit. Oh, and recently, gaming.

Didn’t see anything about them and MichFest, which is surprising.

From FB: Some new developments of interest 1) Coroner said they will likely be able to tell if the kids were malnourished or have symptoms of chronic abuse not caused cause from the crash 2) Sheriff said the last body recovered was mere yards from the original crash site (near the bridge) 3) Still no confirmed sightings of the family beyond the Safeway and very few tips have come in 4) No items of interest have been found in or near the water (tents, suitcases) 5) Actual blood relatives of the kids have been contacted for possible burial scenarios

Thanks, r18. I certainly hope the blood relatives don’t have to take on the expense. Certainly they’re not wealthy.

Still waiting for the light and love community to step up and raise some money for them. They probably opt for the cheapest shit because impermanence or some garbage.

R17

They surely couldn't have brought their mascot Devonte to Michfest, so what would be the fun in that?

[quote]I haven’t seen any photos or evidence that they ever attended ANY gay ANYTHING.

Sorry to repeat but it was at the end of part 4: Are we sure they were really lesbians?

Thanks, r16. I had seen comments from people connected to Onedoorland/Binah Zing/Gene Keys, but I must have missed the Osho ones.

The whole deification of Binah Zing is creepy as fuck, btw.....even more exaggerated than what they’re attempting with the Harts.

r20 Jesus, I like to think even the menstrual hut dwellers would have shunned that fucking photo op couple and their starving kids, I mean, I hope the systren at Brother Moon/the Gulag, would have snuck them food and given them hugs if they did get in.

R23

In other threads, the point has been made about how it's weird that the Harts had so many straight male friends when most lesbians mostly associate with other women. But that's probably it. We've solved the mystery. Other lesbians would never have let those women abuse and starve their adopted kids. Had Jenn and Sarah had any lesbian friends, their attention-seeking abusive scam would have been discovered and shut down years ago.

[quote]Didn’t see anything about them and MichFest, which is surprising.

why? They are not near Michigan. And does it even still exist?

They were obviously way more into the new age hippie stuff

I think that’s it. We always joke about lesbians and their intermingled network of exes, but it’s true. Randomly pick a 10-person sample of middle-class (or slightly lower) lesbians and it’s almost a sure thing that one will be a social worker. Add in all of the friends and exes they socialize with and that number goes way up.

Lesbians were too risky.

They were also a married couple that isolated themselves

since they both have education backgrounds, its almost as if they acted more like teachers than loving parents. my sister is a teacher and has no kids and she thinks she's an expert.

If they had nothing to do with "LGBTQ," I guess they could have reasons..

The no lesbian network thing is interesting but these gals coupled right up in college. Were they each other's first love? I wonder if they belonged to any lesbian group while in school.

It's so wierd that they started adopting in their early/mid twenties. Who does that?! Why wouldn't they want to get settled first in a career and have a life before dragging yourself down with responsibilities. To me, that is so fucking bizarre.

I still say Jenn became/skewed agoraphobic. Her weird stay at home behavior fits. Only went out when she was with the tribe, needed them for her public face. Couldn't do it on her own. It got worse as the years went by while she was home. Depressed, paranoid, dealing with increasingly older children and it spun out from there.

Why not have babies of their own? Maybe they were in it for the $ -and to have targets for abuse. This makes me angry....they couldn't even save the kids /dogs in the end?

It’s worth mentioning that with Oregon’s euthanasia laws that a “death doula” would possibly also be the one administering (legally) the fatal dose. It’s poison in Oregon, by the way. I find this unnerving if the death doula is connected to an actual cult, as it may not just be about people with end-stage terminal illnesses ending their lives.

I wonder if one of them grew up in a family that took in foster kids solely as a source of income and they were just carrying on the family sideline. Who would want that type of responsibility right out of college?

Of course, Tatiana and the others will just never admit it, like people who won't admit OJ is guilty, it's gonna be like that. Run off the road? Oh my sides!

#Pray4Devonte

Nahko accuses Devonte of having eating disorder.

R34 who the hell is that bitch? I haven't been able to keep up with the whole crazy story. Love the 3 "laughing" reactions her post got btw.

why did the Texas adoption link at R592 of Pt 4 thread refer to Jennifer's wife "Melissa"?

One long post I saw that talked about Osho was later edited to remove that material. Now the account is gone.

These are think it manifest it types, which is part of the going hard, maybe. With the negative focus on Osho right now, someone with sense said tone it down, like Nacho Bears label had him unavailable to the Seattle Times.

Stilll wondering what #protect the community was about though

R22, that was a good find. In most circles ODing in a hot tub at a young age would be a cautionary tale, here it is grounds for deification.

Many of these people have family $. Max, for example, is from a wealthy CT family. Binah had family $ too, I believe.

Is OneDoor an outgrowth of Osho?

Yes, "protectthecommunity" sounds cultish

The pic of Jen on the store camera doesn't really look like her

Remember the Ghost Ship fire? That was a hippy dippy crowd running that, too. Though I think some people were there just for the music and it sounded like fun.

They are resuming searching at the crash site today.

It sounds like the kids may be returned to blood relatives, despite the adoptions. In light of the circumstances that seem ok. Sorry for a FB link to a video with the Sheriffs Office, not sure where the guy who posted it linked to, so I am going with his link.

The Sheriff is going to put out a written press release at 9 am daily to try to handle the media attention. They have a FB and a twitter if people want to follow.

Are there any children still alive? I thought they were all dead.

2 bodies have not been found. They may wash up, or not. They are all believed to have been in the car.

They are looking for any evidence that may have washed up after the recent storm.

Do not understand the post at R44

and cannot see the facebook link

Return what kids to whom?

Everything in the family seemed to center around Jenn who is usually front in center in pics. If Sarah wasn't kissing or gazing at Jenn, she came off looking like one of the kids. Like other posters I am also struck how they seemed to need validation by straight male musicians and used their kids to do it. From looking at everything posted about these hippy festival types they are really coming off as mostly adhering to traditional sex roles despite supposedly being progressive. The women really seem to be in the background to these guys. These are not the type of guys who I think would really care about the welfare of the kids or even notice, as they seem to be more into the adulation they recieve. Even the video for Gym and Juice, the main guy a muscle head and the main woman a sweet girl picking fruit. Fuck, those two bitches needed MichFest. At least the boys would have been fed at the Sun camp. We might have to rethink whether the Sun camp was really a bad place. Cause if the lesbians who ran it are like ones I know who will steal an abused cat other dog to save it, the MichFest woman running the camp would probably have just taken the kids.

For some reason I feel like the crash was a separate thing and finding out about their possible connection to the cult was just a “bonus” (that might not be the best word) from digging deeper into the Hart’s home life/public life. I did read a bit of the comments from their festival friends/the “light and love” people and I have to say it is unnerving how many of them are still defending them, even after abuse allegations and investigations came out. I mean, I like to think the best of people too, but there is also a line I draw. Child abuse is 100% one of them.

R45, I’m guessing they mean returning the children’s remains to the bio family for the funerals, which makes sense since the adopted parents murdered them and it seems like they were kept isolated from their adopted grandparents. They probably didn’t even know them.

Which means some methheads are going to put up Gofundmes for the kids’ funerals, then spend the money on drugs.

yes, so what is the point?

pr media points?

Jenn was Thing 1 and Devonte was Thing 2

And wasn't Sarah thing 8? Sarah also left the family for awhile; seems Jen was the ringleader Narcissist.

If she made Sarah take the charge that should have been for her, that was another thing (and something serious).

Jen was at the wheel.

R48 “ At least the boys would have been fed at the Sun camp. We might have to rethink whether the Sun camp was really a bad place. Cause if the lesbians who ran it are like ones I know who will steal an abused cat other dog to save it, the MichFest woman running the camp would probably have just taken the kids.”

Damn - you are so correct! Women would have spotted those hungry, abused kids in one minute, turned in the Moms big time. Many of the MichFest. Women were nurses, Dr’s, Social Workers. DL likes to make fun, but I knew many women attendees and they were WOKE, Smart as hell and mothers themselves.

SO yes, Jen & Sarah were all about the self absorbed white, trust fund, hippy boy musician scene. IT was “providing better male role models” that might not care too much that these kids were uneducated.

This twit...

[quote]so i’m not sure what to think tbh. but y engage with LGBTQ haters or racist trolls when it slanders the memory of, at the core, good people with mental illness tryna do the best job they know how. damn we all sick. society pressure is hard. illuminate love.

An article on Dana DeKalb's 80-year-old father's 911 call. He called in November but when police spoke to Dana, she told them that it had actually happened in August and there had been no further incidents. Police chose not to do a welfare check.

[quote]“The other night, a little girl jumped out of the second-story window on the roof and then down onto the ground and ran to my daughter — and this was like two in the morning — begging them to help her,” the caller, Steve Frkovich, 80, told the Clark County dispatcher in the Nov. 18 call. He told the dispatcher there were kids who he felt were “being highly abused.”

[quote]“My son-in-law doesn’t want to get involved, but the more I sit on it, I just can’t live with it. Somebody’s got to go there and check on these kids,” Frkovich said. “Since she’s told me about it, I just can’t live with it … those kids, I think, are in very serious danger.”

...I just can’t with this one.

“Even if the abuse was there does not mean they did not have good and happy times”

Are you kidding me?? Those children were being fucking ABUSED, not getting grounded for skipping school or talking back. For these kids there were no happy times. They were born into this world already knowing fear and pain and heartache and then they got even MORE pain and suffering and heartache when these two wingnuts adopted them.

Even though he was calling mos later, I believe this man demonstrated excellent instincts and insight. I also think that his reveal the son in law was hesitant to report was spot on as evidenced that that the sil went over later to “check” on the situation. SIL actions were not so driven by conviction as much as a hey looksee, I’m sure its fine. I feel “Pop’s” would have been a good deal more observant and exacting. I’m down with the elder Frkovich, his intuition & moral compass was much stronger. Pops mulled this over for a while he was spot on.

Also for FKSAKE why did it take a week of visits by Devonte before CPS was called? A girl fleeing inthe night should have been a deeply alarming situation. The women were counting on exploiting the “embarrassment of meddling in not my business.”

A lot of people called to report abuse prior to the Dekalbs. at least they gave a shit and called. Some people wouldn't care or get involved at all.

As some of you think, CPS can be incompetent, and the time after families are contacted by CPS is the most dangerous for the abused party, as evidenced in the case discussed.

The one time I had to called CPS (mandated reporter), a social worker and I met with the family and spent four hours talking down the abuser so that he could see that this would be a positive step for him and his family. If we had not done that the father would have flown into a rage and beat everyone.

R38, she is a “psychedelic and backlight live painter at music festivals. Creator of Faerie Worlds, hypnotherapist and workshop instructor.”

Of course she is. What else would she be?

Can we please get al this hippy fairie shit off this link? I knew a woman that was part of that crowd and there was never a better con artist - they are nothing more than an updated “Carnie.”

R59

I feel sort of sorry for the Dekalbs but I also fault them for turning Hannah over right away. They should have bullshitted the Harts for a little while, maybe having the husband help “search” while the wife could try to find out from Hannah what the hell was going on.

Of course the county is going to look for next of kin to take responsibility for the bodies. The reason is, it costs money to arrange for a burial or cremation. Multiply that by all these bodies, and it's real money - money the county would rather not spend itself, unless it has no other option.

Since the kids were adopted, I'm assuming the Sarah and Jen's families were already contacted and asked if they'd agree to take responsibility for the kids' remains, and that they refused. I wouldn't hold it against them if they did, because, again, it gets really expensive. So next they'll contact the relatives by birth and see if any of them will agree to take on the responsibility and expense.

My family got a call from the Medical Examiner's office a few years ago, after finding a body in a home that belonged to one of our relatives. We were sure it was our cousin, but the remains were too decomposed for visual identification, and the ME said DNA testing is so expensive, they won't do it unless there's a real need for it. So they decided to just take our word for it that it was our cousin - and then they asked us to take responsibility for the remains. After finding out the cheapest disposal was cremation and that started at $1500, we declined. We gave the ME the names and addresses of our cousin's siblings and suggested they contact them.

A family born from the heart, not the womb

Poor kids

I wish there was a better way

I found it interesting that Mrs. Dekalb told the Seattle times that after her hubby told the "mothers" the missing girl was at there home they just "barged" in. This is really bad manners!

Yeah, that sounded weird. And having them all, all of them cover the next day and make the girl apologize.

The county can just take whatever assets those stupid cunts had left and pay for the childrens’ funerary disposal. They were their CHILDREN. Ship the remains to the Woodland PD and let them deal with it

I find it pitiable that NO ONE is ponying up for the murder victims.

Were the Harts totally estranged from everyone in their past? I haven't read anything from the women's parents, siblings, exes... nada.

$500 cremation.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

R70

I doubt those women were organized enough to have an actual will, which means whatever assets they had would go to their surviving children. I would assume that three of the kids being missing will hold off resolution of their estate for a while, at least until authorities identify the most recent body found and give up on looking for the last two kids. This is also assuming they had any assets. It wouldn’t surprise me if they were in debt up to their eyeballs. The only way I can support the kids’ bio families getting stuck with the tab for burials is if that means the kids are buried properly while the “moms” go to Potter’s field. Otherwise, it should be someone associated with those awful women picking up the tab.

That article in the Fail is just irritating to me because it makes it look like they were hunted and haunted by the KKK but I call bullshit on it, this is the kind of article that pushes the "they were run off the road intentionally!" narrative and we all know that's not fucking true!

R49, agree. The drive off the cliff seemed to be directly in response to CPS. The cult associations (Osho) may have impacted their daily lives and DEFINITELY was associated with the talking points and responses of the Hart defenders - Zippy, Max, Nacho, etc with their #protect the community BS. Their concern SHOULD have been protecting vulnerable HUMAN BEINGS!

Maybe those music festival were their big social & entertainment highlight, but they didn't really know anyone.

I agree w R77. They did not know these festival folks personally.

I thought the neighbor looked uncomfortable and noticed a lot of physical distance between him and his wife. I expected him to offer some physical comfort or support. If his very elderly FIL had called months earlier about Hannah, that explains a lot. I had read it was a relative, but not that it was her father. Bless his heart, he and his daughter seem like they were consumed with worry for the kids since that night. He called, so did she. It is Sarah and Jennifer who have blood on their hands. Other people were by no means indifferent to the kids.

I think Bruce did not want to have issues with the neighbors, he seemed leery of Jenn based on interactions with her and the proximity. There are some crazy people in that part of the country and she was, in fact, homicidal. I think they would have run whenever a call was made. Tragic.

R77, Max Ribner gave the children music lessons for about a year and is in dozens of photos with them, including swimming in a lake and at what appears to be the Hart home.

TX had the payments going to Jenn, so she may have been the only legal adoptive parent from TX. If so, maybe that is why Sarah pled to the criminal charge for the assualt on first grader Abigail. Poor little thing, punched and waterboarded.

The hitting of the other girl WITH A BELT, was that Hannah? occurred while the 2nd adoption was pending. CPS and the police did not prosecute but that was another point where state actors let the kids down. Maybe it just slipped through the cracks, with a MN report to a TX agency? That they DID NOT control themselves while under close scrutiny is astounding to me. These kids were TINY and very young. These are really hard core abusive tactics from the get go.

Somehow, I am guessing one or both did not have Mr. Rogers type childhoods. Or, did their parents foster for $ and abuse the kids? Sadly, I have seen such firsthand. In other families I have seen adopted kids treated horribly, as though they are servants to the bio kids. That said, group homes, an alternative, are horrific and dangerous too, so few good alternatives. Since they started fostering in their young 20s I am guessing they had prior experience with it in their families growing up.

R58, the problem with Jenn’s defenders is that if the primary abuser of Devonte and his siblings were his black birth family, or a mouth-breathing MAGA deplorable they would be up in fucking arms. But a criticising a sugar-free white festival lesbian? Never.

R82, even more than about Jenn, my sense is it is about, literally, #protect the community and I think that harkens back to the Osho undertones, however different parties were involved.

Max, Zippy and Kristina had very similar talking points that they got into the media immediately and pretty aggressively about the Harts. They were also interviewed. Max even called the DeKalbs! That is pretty ballsy. He called them bigots as I recall.

Nacho was active but slightly less scripted and coherent.

Jenn and Sarah were involved in the hippy scene, festivals and healing, etc, since college.

in this video you can see how close the houses are together. they were not far a part at all. the news is old though. dated April 1st

[quote]Max even called the DeKalbs! That is pretty ballsy. He called them bigots as I recall.

That is wildly stupid not to mention shitty... why persecute people who were acting in good faith and trying to help alleviate the suffering of innocent kids? Even if the neighbors' fears had turned out to be misplaced (which tragically they weren't) it's still the right fucking thing to do.

I can't help feeling that everyone in Jenn & Sarah's Instagram-hippie social circle is a self-involved asshole. Like attracts like, I guess.

Hannah tried to run to the other house first. They had a little boy and they had seen that family outside before. They were not home, so at that point, in the middle of the night, she ran to the DeKalbs in a panick. Fuck the Sheriff for not doing a welfare check then. Those kids might be alive if they had shown up with CPS.

I still think of the cruel irony of self congratulating Jen's statement about how bad the kids had it b4 being saved by Jen --no doubt she reminded the kids about it too. Fucked up situation ...what a cunt

Ack, part of my post got cut from R86 - Fuck the Sheriff for not doing a welfare check when later called about that night - they could have been saved then. Those kids might be alive if they had shown up with CPS.

R87, unfortunately many people have children for all the wrong reasons. I was speaking to a woman once who told me that she had kids so she would finally have someone who would love her. I thought (but did not say aloud at the time) "That's not how this works."

I don't know what motivated the Harts but it sounds like a narcissistic family dynamic, something I have seen in my own family as well as others. The children are expected to meet the needs of the adults and make them feel better about themselves. Meanwhile the physical and emotional needs of the kids fall by the wayside. This dysfunctional dynamic is of course the engine for all sorts of abuse.

R89, when I was in my teens I knew a girl that was molested by her stepfather with the mother’s knowledge and consent. She went along because she had a very pretty little sister, about nine years old (much prettier than she was), and she told the stepfather, you can do it with me, just leave her alone. The stepfather was paying the bills, the mother was very messed up and useless.

I lost track of her for about a year. When I saw her next she was pregnant with a big bruise on her face. She said she would finally have someone who loved her. I felt so bad for her, and so scared for that kid. The father was a Mexican gang member. The girl was a very unattractive white girl with no gang connections. She was poor and not very smart. I’m not sure she graduated from high school.

I know nobody had really cared about her since they’d left her grandmother’s in another state, years ago. Probably the grandmother couldn’t afford to care for them any more, or got too old.

I’ve often wondered what happened to her. But it was just too dangerous for me to hang around with her any more because it wasn’t safe to be around her crazy parents, and everyone else she knew was extremely sketchy.

These are the type of people whose kids wind up in foster care.

I have heard people say they have kids so someone looks after them when they are old.

That doesn’t work if you’re crazy and treat your kids like shit, in most cases.

True, R91. That's a risky investment and a quaint, old fashioned fantasy. Lots of adult kids move away for careers or become estranged from their parents. And many (most?) who do have good relationships with their parents, and live nearby, still have no interest or ability to be nurse maids to them when they age.

I can’t help but wonder if Jenn had threatened to kill them all off before in this manner, or drive to that cliff side with the whole family in the car and threaten to do so in order to torture them.

I’m afraid they had a terrifying last minute of their lives. Or more than a minute if she didn’t hit the accelerator right away and they were begging for their lives.

Was that article in r66's link put together via Mad Lib?

It reads like two or more separate family annihilation incidents mixed and matched -- different photos, names, etc. So surreal, it's almost worth a read for that reason (not for any other, btw.).

The sheriff's department doesn't think they failed the kids by not acting on Dana DeKalb's father's call....

[quote]“It’s coming down to prioritization of calls and this call is a distance out. It’s by a third party of something they have no first-hand knowledge of,” said Sgt. Brent Waddell.

[quote]“I’m not sure we failed the children. Again, we handle a lot of these types of calls,” he said. “I don’t feel we failed them.”

RIP Hart children

Jenn could be the mother of Sarah too, in many photos. She had crazy eyes even in pics as a teen and seemed to age horribly.

Such a shame. If your family is abusive, calls to authorities often do NOT lead to things getting better. TX pulled them out of the frying pan and into the fire. RIP kids.

One of their few outside activities.

It is so hard for humans to reconcile being in close contact with monsters in skin suits.

They had attended a UU church in MN, guess even that got too risky.

Wonder what all that debt was from?

Here is Jeremiah, dressed as an elephant, watching Nahko. May have been the same festival where Devonte was dressed as a zebra. Such sweet kids.

One of the only times I have seen them in regular clothes. Poor munchkins.

Tubby Love, for real his name, who is some kind of leader in their circles has put out a memorial type video. Not sure what the imgur type thing is for vids. Did not see it on YouTube? Do not want to download it.

The deniers seem to have shifted to a different tag, #Hartforward

Some of the hippies are starting to call if like it is: exploitation on so many levels

to Jay Lash 2 hrs · Take a kid out of a struggle situation and make him hug everyone with a sign. He was crying most of the time. Jojo explain this to me.

Sierra was not the only one grabbed by her wrist. Look at Hannah here (in the mask).

Poor kid did not get much bigger by age 16, her bones were sticking out of her chest. In another snap from this series, Sarah had a big bruise on her leg and was wearing a cheerleader type skirt. Part of me hopes Hannah kicked her.

That kid, like Devonte, had not given up despite a decade of starvation and abuse. She tried to get help. One of the festival women who had tried to help lived in Seattle, that may have been who she was trying to reach when she went to the DeKalbs. Fleeting contacts with people who cared helped sustain these kids and helped them believe that they were deserving of help. The resilience of the human spirit is amazing.

Such a fucking shame.

Do these hippies not realise they are spraying white privilege around but turning these black children into minstrels?

To be fair, if CPS or police had arrived, Jen and Sarah would have passed their test. They were slick and manipulative. They had a lovely home, I’m sure there was healthy food in the fridge, and the kids were well-coached. Certainly CPS wouldn’t have removed the kids from the home on the spot.

And Jen and Sarah would have done what they always did. And maybe things would have ended somewhat the same way.

The article at R99 is key: they were vegan. Vegan means crazy. A vegan diet isn't good for growing kids. That is why the other kids at the hippie music festivals are skinny, too. Vegan diet plus withholding food as punishment when they are growing kids - that is what will send them begging for food next door.

Two people who majored in early childhood education would definitely know that a strict vegan diet would not meet the nutritional needs of children and adolescents. Ugh, another wave of hatred for this evil duo.

The vegans always block that out, though and claim it isn't true.

But why would they raise chickens, if not for the eggs?

Thanks for that article, r99.

So I’m getting the idea that things might have been under control, more or less, until rather recently? And then they snapped.

just because they volunteered at a farm doesn't mean they are vegan

R112, the man in the article said they were a vegan family.

Not that it means they actually WERE (they lied a lot), but they told him that.

Smith recalled a time that Jen, unhappy with the way female mannequins at Herberger’s had visible nipples because she believed it fed into society’s exploitation of women’s bodies, found a hacksaw from the store’s toolroom and sawed all the nipples off.

No one at the store reprimanded Jen, Smith remembered. Jen and Sarah “were really loved at that store,” Smith said.

What the entire fuck!! Sawed off all the nipples of mannequins????!!!!!!

I’m wondering if that had more to do with limiting what the farmers offered them. In an earlier interview they mentioned being alone with the kids while Jen and Sarah were working. And why would vegans be volunteering at a farm that raises animals for meat?

They told a lot of people a lot of things, from telling the Portland neighbor that the KKK burned a cross to telling some of the hippies that Devonte had an eating disorder to telling the DeKalbs that they had just recently started homeschooling. I don’t believe anything that came out of their mouths.

Damn you bitches move fast. I can’t keep up.

Well, she was right about the mannequin nipples.

I'm surprised she didn't get fired for destroying store property. It's Jenn's world and the kids had to live in it, unfortunately.

[quote]And why would vegans be volunteering at a farm that raises animals for meat?

For the free vegetables the farmer gave them.

Lesbians angry that a teenage girl didn’t enjoy a makeup counter makeover. But they objected to a mannequin’s nipples because society/exploitation of women?

Those fucked-up bitches.

R115, I guarantee those murderous bitches ate meat.

Being vegan was just another way to excuse the kids’ emaciated appearance.

And how pissed would YOU be if some crackpot bitches dumped their kids on you while they went to work? Free childcare. Or maybe those hippie farmers didn’t mind the slave labor. “We’re HOMESCHOOLING!”

Another piece of info.

I wonder whether Sarah had been beaten.

That is to say, I wonder whether she was beaten that night, as per the link at R122.

Sounds to me like she was poisoned maybe

No she was lying and trying to cover for why the CPS report was bad, "oh I was so sick, I had to go to the hospital" etc, she sounds like she was an asshole drama queen.

It is an interesting detail. Who knows?

That’s a grim thought, R125, but perhaps all of them were poisoned, and then Jen just drove around for a day and a half. Horrible to consider. I still don’t think Sarah (although complicit by potentially taking the fall for someone else) seems like an active abuser, despite the conjecture here, and the hearsay online. Poison is also more in line with female family annihilation. It would also explain the small amount of food Jen bought at the supermarket — potentially for herself alone. Then she drove the coast road trying to find a place to end it all like the Nahko song, maybe even visiting the glass beach where they’d had happy times before.

so what will happen to their house and belongings? I guess the bank will take back possession of the home.

She wasn’t sick. She was coming up with a story that would explain why she wasn’t answering her phone or coming in to work. And sending it at an ungodly hour to make it look legit.

My sister has come up with some real doozies (she’s BPD) and that is just the kind of detail she’d come up with, to make it more believable.

She sent the text to a friend, not her boss, R130.

Right r131 but she was still covering, she knew the reports would get out so she had to make up a story, I imagine she did it all the time with that freakish life she had.

It doesn't sound like making up a story. It sounds like panic especially given the time and how there was no further response.

No, R132, Ockham’s Razor means she was probably incredibly sick — my guess is that she was either poisoned or beaten. I suspect all seven of them were poisoned.

Eh, it’s possible she was poisoned. But that takes premeditation. It seems like the whole trip was a rash decision.

Not gonna rule anything out, though. Toxicology report should be interesting.

Occam's razor says no such thing. This thread is full of people coming up with murder-mystery scenarios. Stress can make you sick--and I'm sure the CPS visit, meltdown by partner, etc., was stressful--but poison? No reason for it.

My take--BPD is quite likely. People with BPD are prone to suicidal ideation and impulses. There's no reason to have been poisoning the famiily. Feeling that everything was crashing down and that there was no way out--well, having the impulse to hit the gas and drive over the cliff doesn't take a ton of preplanning--just a terrible moment.

Also, you don't normally have one crazy partner and one totally sane partner--dysfunction doesn't work like that. One's enabling the other, so it's folie a deux.

More and more I think they let any kind of abusers adopt kids. As long as the state does not have to provide for kids...they will give them away to asshole. Nothing is good about the Republican ran government.

If they all were poisoned at home that Friday night before Sarah's call, Jenn would not have been able to drag everyone, or just Sarah into the car. I don't think so.

[quote]But why would they raise chickens, if not for the eggs?

Voodoo sacrifices, Rose.

Nahko and the rest of that bunch are slipping. I though by now they'd be all over the other SUV with the missing family as proof that it was all an accident.

i don't think they were poisoned, take that shit to websleuths

It could have been intensely emotionally sick if the other one was freaking out or if they both were.

Ahhh, Websleuths; where they actually had a discussion about whether or not the SUV would be able to drive slowly down the cliff — very, very slowly — and only flip when it hit the rocks at the bottom.

Seriously.

Oof, r136, WW. That car ride, I can only hope they were keeping it light.

[quote]Also, you don't normally have one crazy partner and one totally sane partner--dysfunction doesn't work like that. One's enabling the other, so it's folie a deux.

VERY good point. That's what I think everytime DLers talk about Brad like he was some blindsided victim, and are always musing about how he was able to put up with psycho Angie for so long.

No she was calling in sick for work. My guess is she and Jen hadn’t worked out a response yet. This was the very least she could do to account for not showing up on Mon or whenever. R128 you better believe that “abuser” Jen made sure Sarah FELT like she was a guilty party. And she was starving the kids too.

Thank you R136 “Occams razor” says they are poisoned - LOL. OMG - the tin hats are too much in here.

R145, yep, even if one partner is totally crazy at the get-go, the rationalizing that starts to happen, means no one is in there keeping it together. The exceptions are in cases where one partner is staying with the other for external reasons--i.e. the mother married to a drunk in Prizewinner of Defiance, Ohio was Catholic with 10 kids in the '50s.

People with BPD are, unfortunately, not uncommon in the LGBT community--lack of a fixed sexual identity is one of the symptoms of the disorder--they'll be whatever they need to be to avoid emotional abandonment--I suspect people with BPD may be part of the reason Bis get a bad rap. They're also very good at mirroring other people and come off as very charismatic in a lot of cases (Marilyn Monroe and Princess Di are thought by some to have been borderline.). They do lie and lie very convincingly--because they, themselves, believe the lie.

So, let's make Jen (since she drove off the cliff and didn't work much outside the home) the one with BPD--she is charming, seems warm, attractive to people who aren't close to her. At the same time, she's incredibly needy and cannot ever acknowledge being at fault--it's either all white or all black with someone who has BPD, though which is which can turn on the dime. So, yes, goes with the savior complex, the Bernie-is-God complex. Would also go with the inability to take responsibility for, say, hitting her kid and doing something to not do it again. She probably convinced herself that the kid made her hit her or that Sara did, indeed, do the hitting.

It *is* possible that at least some of the kids were planning to run away--and if that were uncovered that would be seen as the thing someone with BPD most fears--abandonment. Abandonment for someone with BPD taps into their deep sense of nonexistence--there's no there, there with someone with BPD--no core sense of self. Throw in a CPS visit--and the possiblity of the kids (and Jen's raison d'etre and sense of identity) being removed and Jen could go into total meltdown mode.

So, Sara, then would be Jen's enabler--convincing herself that wonderful, lovable Jen just needs to be placated--they'll go away together to happier places. It's been clear from their history that Sara had no issues with doing what people in AA call a "geographic"--you just move and your problems will go away. Though, of course, they don't. Her bond to Jen, for whatever reason, appears to have outstripped any sense of responsibility to the children--though she probably rationalized her behavior--would be in keeping with the behavior of their festival buddies.

Only this time, they really do hit the end of the road--at least as far as Jen's concerned.

And, man, those poor kids. I used to hang out on a board for people who had a borderliner in their life--the people with "momster"s for parents really had it the worst. The father, in those families, was usually a narcissist.

Other new developments in the Hart family case:

Washington State Department of Social and Health Services documents obtained by The Oregonian/OregonLive this week provide more details about Devonte Hart’s actions in the days leading up to his disappearance. • Over a string of conversations, Devonte told someone who later contacted authorities — believed to be neighbor Dana DeKalb — that his parents were mean and not feeding him meals for days at a time. DeKalb asked if Devonte’s parents were abusing him, and he replied they did “sometimes.” • He urged DeKalb not to call police because he and his siblings would be split up. DeKalb asked why the children weren’t ever outside, and Devonte said his parents wanted to keep their children hidden. The documents also provide more details about Hannah Hart’s runaway attempt. • DeKalb said Hannah jumped from her second-story window at 1:30 a.m. six months before, rang her doorbell and ran into her house. Hannah was covered in weeds and blackberries and asked DeKalb to hide her. The girl said her parents were racist and had been abusing her. • All eight of the Harts came over the next morning. Jennifer Hart said Hannah had two missing teeth after falling and knocking them out and that Hannah didn’t want new ones. • DeKalb said Hannah looked like she was 7 years old. Authorities say Hannah is 16. Sarah and Jennifer Hart also fostered a teen in the mid-2000s, according to the Seattle Times.

The Minnesota Department of Human Services confirmed to The Oregonian/OregonLive that the couple was licensed to provide child foster care in Douglas County, Minnesota, for almost two years beginning April 1, 2005. The Harts weren't hit with any licensing sanctions, the agency said. They adopted siblings Markis, Abigail and Hannah in September 2006. Long before authorities showed up at the Hart's home last month, a relative of the family's neighbors reported his fear the children were in danger, according to 911 and dispatch records.

Steve Frkovich, Dana DeKalb's father, told a dispatcher in November 2017 that he was concerned about the children, according to the records, obtained this week by The Oregonian/OregonLive. He said he felt the kids were "being highly abused" and recounted Hannah jumping out a window and seeking help. The incident happened two months prior to his call to authorities, and Dana DeKalb said there had been no other issues since that one, according to records. It was determined that a welfare check wasn't necessary because of the "isolated incident," according to the records. The Seattle Times first reported about Frkovich's call. The news outlet, citing a Clark County Sheriff's Office spokesman, said the agency had no reports of problems at the family's home prior to the November report.

What a crazy case. Poor kids.

R148

Would the family isolating itself have caused needy Jenn to go into a tailspin, do you think?

good post R149

A Houston woman can not stop crying after learning three children adopted to a Minnesota couple 10 years ago have died.

By Nick Natario Updated 2 hrs 7 mins ago HOUSTON -- It's a shocking story: A couple adopts six children only to allegedly drive them over a cliff off the California coast.

Now we're learning even more about their past, riddled with abuse allegations, and that three of those kids were from the Houston area.

Devonte and his two siblings were removed from their Houston family nearly a decade ago.

At the time, they lived with their aunt. Her attorney only knew they were given to a couple in Minnesota.

She hasn't heard anything about the kids until this week, when she realized they were in the SUV that went off a California cliff.

Authorities say Jennifer and Sarah's SUV sped off a California cliff a couple weeks ago. Both were found dead.

The couple's six adopted children were also believed to be in the SUV, and killed in the crash.

Houston attorney Shonda Jones says three of the kids - Devonte, Jermiah, and Ciera - were from Houston. She represented their aunt.

Although it's been a decade, the case still bothers her because she never felt the kids should've been removed.

Jeezu Christ - these kids could never shake the racism from the system of Jen & Sarah, They couldn’t LIVE with their Aunt?? Apparently two white women trump a hard working loving blood relative. Maybe CPS felt her parents were Very present and manipulative - but their unit should have been given a chance. That sucks beyond comprehension.

The only thing I can think of is that they are safe now, they are not being hurt. They are not scareof and they are not hungry.

This fact of the aunt, words fail me. Bit different than the story Jenn spun to the media and to Nacho Bear. Missed that loving custodial family member after the parents.

I hope this case leads to reform. Extended family is always better for kids, the aunt should have been provided the supports they needed and the funding that enabled Jenn to sit around and snack and game all day. It used to be the default, but after adoption incentives came into play, the system has become distorted. What pays is a stream of kids to adopt out and it leads to results like this.

Curios if the friend Sarah texted was a co-worker?

911 calls for welfare checks

From the father of Mrs. DeKalb

From the friend who got a text from Sarah (seems like kind of a work call out sort of thing to me?)

.......

What made the friend call 911 about the call? What made her think it was strange?

If she was calling about missing work wouldn't she just say a standard I'm not feeling well., I won't be in today..?

Kind of a sweet snap of Max Ribner, his fiance and the kids.

Oddly, Jenn posted a version with Max and Kristin cropped, out, she did the same with the photo of Max swimming in the river with Jeremiah and Devonte. Wonder if they had a falling out?

She called for a welfare check when no one had seen them or heard from them for 2 days after the text. I have known of friends/family/work to do the same thing if someone does not show up for work and cannot be reached.

Sarah made her text seem kinda dramatic, maybe that was to buy more time. In retail, you show up unless you are dying or hospitalized so that may have been a factor too?

Anyone want to guess what their mortgage and tax payments could have been in that part of WA on a $375,000 house? Just trying to figure out how tight finances may have been.

The text came at 3am. Most people at 3am are in bed or if grievously ill in the ER - nothing in between. She was neither.

I posted upthread about how the Father in law demostrated great insight and good judgement about the fate fo the kids. I wa also the speculating that the neighbor was “not wanting to get involved” beyond an - eh I will check it out tomorrow. Then he takes a WEEK to care about the Devonte saying he is not being fed. Jackass. So many straight men are like that. INFURIATING. Those kids would be alive had the cops got there earlier.

The tape of the father in law is heart wrenching, he is my hero. Natch they painted him as being “oh he is o out of it.” His daughter has to be pretty pissed at her husband.

The body language of the De Kalbs in early interviews would seem to suggest that, R161.

The dispatcher reported it, it was the sheriff who made the call not to do the welfare check.

Lots of people knew something was wrong. I still think they would likely have had the same family annihilation attempt regardless, unless the kids were apart from them and could be seized. With this sheriff, they would likely not have pulled all 6, they did not even want to drive out there. Given any window, Jenn would have tried for the grand exit.

....

R151, if Jen had BPD, the isolation would have been largely her doing--decompensating BPDs tend to isolate themselves as a means of keeping up their denial. Someone with BPD can't deal with being in the wrong--so she (they're mostly women, though not all) will go out of her way to deny/escape any situation where she's at fault.

BPD = borderline?

R165, yes--borderline personality disorder. One of the symptoms is suicidal ideation (oh joy)--more talk than action, usually, but a pretty high rate of actual suicide attempts. Don't know, of course, but it would fit what we know.

I don't see r165 could it be the repetitive CPS troll I blocked😀

I mentioned it already. I had an acquaintance who was *so* controlling over her kids' activities that when they all eventually left for college-post grad-job and she was faced with empty nest, she gave into her agoraphobia entirely. Husband basically ended the marriage and now if the family wants to see her, it's at the house. I think the husband checks in and shops for her. She only leaves the house when the youngest daughter (away at school) comes home to drive here. It's all on her terms.

This case is reminding me of her. And thanks to the BPD knowledgeable poster, I'm connecting the dots; it's very interesting. The control and the abandonment seem key here and in the Hart case.

R168, Some older BPD types go into a hermit state, but they aren't the only people who are agoraphobic. The key thing to me--i.e. the wow-this-person-is-crazy-tell--is the splitting. People are either all white or all black--and--this is the really screwy thing--a person can go from one to the other in the space of a minute. It's a truly bizarre experience to be at the receiving end of it.

So, if the Hart family was centered on a parent with BPD, it's extremely likely that some of the kids would be viewed as angelic and perfect and at least one would be a scapegoat. This happens in other dysfunctional families too, but it's standard operating procedure if there's a BPD momster in the mix. If there's a "bad" kid, then it's the momster's fault--and nothing can ever be Momster's fault.

Oops, that should be "not the momster's fault". (It's the evil kid's fault, or I remember one story where it was the evil road's fault.)

R154 First and most important, I am not intending to besmirch the character of the aunt in Houston. I just want to throw in some thoughts which occurred to me after reading the piece about the aunt and her attorney. 1. We don't know why the 3 children were removed from the aunt's care and custody. Common sense would seem to dictate that if it was a safe home in which a family member could adequately provide for the kids, there would be no cause to remove them. It is possible that the aunt did not have the funds to care for three kids, or even that her living situation was deemed unsatisfactory. Maybe she was living with a convicted felon or even a registered sex offender, or maybe the home was too small. I remember seeing a documentary in which the kids were taken from a grandmother because CPS did not approve of a boy and girl over the age of 8 sharing a room. And even worse, one child was having to sleep with the grandmother herself. There could have been substance abuse issues.

Granted that in the rear view mirror, there is no way that the aunt's care could have been any worse than the 2 adoptive moms, but cps would have had no way to predict that at the time. They were willing and ready to provide a clean home, food and clothing while keeping the siblings together. And they were "educated" and appeared to be middle class and mentally sound.

Again, the aunt may be a saint and a wonderful lady, but I just don't believe that cps would remove the kids from blood relations if there was not some sort of major red flag.

[quote] just don't believe that cps would remove the kids from blood relations if there was not some sort of major red flag.

😂😂😂

I don't speak emoji. What does that mean?

I don't blame the neighbor guy for being leery to get involved. If the parents are innocent CPS can make their life hell or if they are abusing the kids but CPS doesn't do anything then it gets really awkward when you live that close and share a driveway.

Agree R174, and more than awkward since Jenn seemed angry and crazy to the guy. Unpleasant even over the driveway. I wonder if the DeKalbs will end up divorced over this. The woman looked shattered and her husband said she had been very upset since Hannah came over in the night, something like 6 months ago. Their body language in the early interviews was very estranged from one another.

R171, I have similar reservations. With a grain of salt, of course, but I read on Websleuths (I know, I know) that the aunt wasn’t allowed to keep the kids because she was allowing the kids’ mother to watch them while the aunt was at work. If that’s the case, the aunt was not providing a safe environment for the kids. They were removed from the mother’s care for a reason.

And now that there are lawyers involved, I smell someone looking for a payday. Sorry not sorry.

Just to make sure I’m up to speed, in addition to the CPS troll, we’ve also now got a BPD troll? Are there any others I need to be aware of?

Snap of the kids with Nahko.

Jenn looks oddly old, even though the kids are very young here. She could easily pass for the mother of Sarah, too. They went to college together so I do believe that they are at least roughly the same age. One or both likely had significant abuse histories in their family of origin. That can be a real driver to save someone but instead, sadly, to repeat the cycle. It is very unusual for people to foster right out of college. $ may have played a role and I will not be shocked if fostering was a family pattern too.

In hindsight the aunt should have been provided with daycare for the kids. Out of the frying pan and into the fire.

.........

Is there anywhere on the web where you can find the actual ages (dates of birth) of all the Hart kids?

I'm getting confused, because there seems to be a lot of wrong information about the ages of some of the kids. Devonte was pretty clearly 15, but Sierra was his biological sister, and some places give her age as 15 too -- that would make them twins, or at least Irish twins, and then their other biological brother, Jeremiah, is listed as being 14. Three kids in less than two years for that mother? That makes no sense.

Markis, Abigail and Hannah were reportedly 19, 16, and 14 respectively... I guess that sounds reasonable.

I think it is kind of amazing that so many online are dreaming up narratives “explaining” away the actions of Jenn and Sarah. If Devonte’s black bio parents did this, or if the adoptive parents were white trash MAGA Christians, they would be instantly written off as the scum that the Turpin are.

But take 2 once semi-attractive white liberal lesbians and people, be they websleuths or even Nahko, are inventing tales of poison and eating disorders.

I assume the oldest boy Markis has different parents to the others. Yet he looks a great deal like one of the light skin sisters, the one without the glasses. Maybe they shared a mother?

Court case where the bio aunt tried to get the kids. This is public record and can be found by googling the attorney. CPS did the aunt so wrong yet gave JH chance after chance *smh*

"After the hearing, the 313th District Court signed an order dismissing Celestine's petition with prejudice, and without explanation. Celestine promptly filed a motion for new trial before the 313th District Court, which, after a hearing, was also denied without explanation. Celestine now appeals the October 2008 order of the 313th District Court dismissing her petition for adoption and the subsequent denial of her motion for new trial/reconsideration.

White and Lesbian trumps Black and Texan.

I’m sorry, I don’t understand the profit motive everyone keeps talking about. And CPS stealing kids for profit. That makes no sense at all. Can someone explain?

When the book about this is inevitably written, it should be titled "Out of the Frying Pan and into the Fire". I can't count how many times this phrase has come up in these threads.

R167 probably won't see this but i'm not a troll or a CPS /BPD troll. I probably said something she didn't like

I guess I'm the BPD troll, but I've actually only posted in this thread a few times--and a couple of times it was in response to questions. This is just one of those cases where the shoe seems to fit.

There is nothing quite as banal as a lesbian with borderline personality disorder.

R186, the book will be called "#Protect the Community" or

"Free Hugs"

R188, I, for one, appreciate everything you wrote. I thought you made a lot of sense. Time will tell when the authorities wrap it up and the experts weigh in with a final report. I'm assuming that will happen eventually (?)

Lol, the CPS troll repeated the same thing, ad nauseum. Though I did get a chuckle out of the suggestion that foster kids get their snap card and checks directly. "Okay, little Sally, here's your money and try not to buy $200 worth of cookies and candy this time, mmkay?"

I think we need to provide benefits to foster and adopted kids for their entire lives. Obviously, social security would go into a trust account. You think this has never been done before, but it is already being done for: rich kids, kids whose parents are in the foreign service, kids who attend boarding school, kids who parent(s) are deceased, etc.

Nahko looks like a hippie Kanye.

no one looks as angry-stupid as Kayne

R194 is off-topic but true.

I’m almost at peak saturation with this case. The frauen on FB and Websleuths are not talking technical details but sentimental schlock.

Max is faux deep. It reads like some in the hippie crowd are anti-choice. Max seems kinda dim.

.........

The TX court seems to have waived the 6 month waiting period for the second adoption, as the aunt was legally fightineg for the kids.

DURING this period one tiny girl was hit in the arm with a BELT. When there was an investigation, Jenn and Sarah claimed the child had fallen down the stairs. The investigation was closed. MN was responsible for reporting to TX, wonder where the cover up happened?

Devonte, Jeremiah and Sierra (originally named Cierra) have an older brother, 21.

Ok, to clarify re: R198, the court refused to waive the 6 month period for the AUNT, I was wrong above. She had had the kid for 5.5 months and had left all four with her daughter. The daughter went to run an errand and left them with their bio mom. Less than an hour later a social worker dropped by and the die was cast.

[quote]I’m almost at peak saturation with this case.

me, too

Max is drumming up business for his sideline, r196. He runs wilderness retreats meant to free men of their toxic masculinity via drum circle, howling at the moon, and hard, sweaty, loinclothed workouts.

Link, R201?

For you, R202

What does this actually MEAN? Is he setting himself up as a hippie life coach?

Thanks, R202! Great find.

The timing of all of this is just incredibly tragic.

An interview from their former foster child. interesting story

Sad to think of playful preschoolers eating chicken nuggets and being loved and going to being beaten, waterboarded and turned into little vegan robotic props. Ugh.

That the foster child was to be part of the family with the adopted kids and instead they dropped her off at a therapy appointment and she never saw or heard from them again, is really odd. Cruel. That teen was lucky and she considers her next foster family as family, still, as an adult. Glimmers of later Jenn and Sarah are there - the avoiding uncomfortable things while they snowball and the coldness are similar to the abuse and murder of the others.

It is unclear from the article if it was their decision or the state's, R209

People want black and white villains but there may be some grey to this story.

Of course the ending was awful.

The foster child tells a perfectly normal story. The depraved minds here should read it.

I meant the ending over the cliff at R210

Yes, the foster child told a normal story. It will disappoint some.

It was there decision to have no further contact, ever.

It is extremely cold.

their decision, cannot edit

It is not clear whether the decision was on their part or the state/agency's part.

We do not know yet who made the decision to move her. But the decision to never again have contact was the Harts.

Jen's extended reaction to the foster kid getting an autograph--perceiving it as a personal slight and resenting it for weeks is BPDish. So is the dropping her with no warning. The foster girl was sort of a prop for them--not a real person in a sense--so, when they got new toys (the three kids), they abandoned her without even a good-bye.

r186, how about a TV show? HART TO HART!

[quote]This is my friend – Jennifer Hart, a self-made festival lesbian and adoptive mother of 6 black kids. She’s quite a gal. This is Sarah Hart – she’s gorgeous. She’s one lady who knows how to take care of herself (but not the kids). By the way, my name is Max Ribner. I stick up for both of them – which ain’t easy; ‘cause when they drove off that cliff, it was MOIDAH.

W&W r218

Jenn lying about the foster daughter eating garbage strikes me as a continuation of her savior complex. Of course the girl couldn't just be a normal troubled teenager who hangs out with friends too old for her and isn't interested in schoolwork. Of course she had to be some sort of crackbaby who can't control her basic impulses.

Has anyone confirmed what the girl's race is? Was she also black?

Jenn made up the same kind of crap about Devonte, that he was born addicted to drugs, but, according to the article about Devonte's aunt, only Jeremiah was born with drugs in his system.

R217, I totally agree. The football thing really stuck out to me.

sounds like Jenn was the crazy one, as we had suspected

Another thing. It always bugged me that these two lesbians would take a teenage girl to a makeup counter to get a makeover. Unless the girl really wanted it, and from the story, it sounds like she didn’t. As “Lee” says in her interview, she was a “tomboy”, and it doesn’t sound as if the trip to the cosmetics department was a dream come true.

What it sounds like to ME is that they were almost punishing her. What the hell kind of real lesbians would DO that? I don’t know many lesbians, and they all have differing ideas about makeup. But I don’t know any who would force a tomboy to get a makeover. Least of all, the kind who’d destroy department store because of some grudge against society that overly sexualizes women or some such about patriarchy. A

Um, sociopathic ones, R223?

It was a primal rejection of HER, writ in cosmetics. The colleague noted that the girl looked very sad, of course she did.

At some point, Jenn started literally cutting Max Ribner out of snaps with the kids. He seemed to genuinely enjoy them, was that like the football to her?

There are photos of all of them together, like Max in the river with Jeremiah and Devonte, then on instagram Jenn posted them as rectangles only of each boy with a hand or arm of Max showing.

But for all the kids to deflect, her meanness and nuttiness would have been unmistakable. Menopause and perimenopause often make such types worse. She was facing them aging out of her house of horrors and leaving her, then CPS was an imminent threat to her control and ability to pay the mortgage.

The aunt said only Jeremiah was born exposed to drugs. Not Devonte.

[quote]The football thing really stuck out to me.

Agree, that was fucked up. She was a kid, of course an athlete is more likely to give a kid an autograph.

Jenn was such a massive narcissist. Look at ME, pay attention to me, it’s all about me.

R225, I’m nitpicking here, but I can’t believe that a crack addict only gave birth to ONE drug addicted child out of seven. Maybe they didn’t test him? Maybe the mother was clean for the birth, I don’t know... it just sounds like the mother was making lots of really poor decisions and it doesn’t seem unreasonable to assume he was. Anyway, RIP. Those kids had the deck stacked against them.

“The DailyMail.com has also learned that the deceased couple were married in Connecticut on September 1, 2009, Jennifer was listed as the groom and Sarah was listed at the bride.“

For someone who was ALL about bragging on FB, where are the wedding photos? No anniversary messages? Nothing. Even if it was a courthouse wedding and they were wearing t-shirts and jeans, wouldn’t there be at least ONE photo of them commemorating their wedding?

Wouldn’t there be a photo of them with the kids in matching T-shirts, cutting a vegan soy cake?

Why do I get the feeling the wedding happened so they couldn’t be compelled to testify against each other? As we all know, marriage provides legal benefits to a couple. I tease my husband that spousal privilege just means I can’t be forced to testify against him - doesn’t mean I can’t!

The kid herself said the makeup thing was not a big deal and she barely remembers it. We do not know the details around it. Other colleagues said Jenn and Sarah were loved in the store.

"Menopause and perimenopause often make such types worse."

And thw average age for starting perimenopause is mid-40s, with the average actual age for true menopause being 52. The women were both 38.

DL's lack of knowledge of women's biological life history never ceases to astound me.

I hope there can be a review of this case, a comprehensive evaluation of CPS and partner agencies, so we can reform and improve this program. Nothing like this should ever happen again. Foster and Adopted child deserve to be protected, safe and HAPPY.

I thought Jenn was 48 and Sarah was 38?

The poster who likes to stick "menopause and perimenopause" into as many threads as possible is downright creepy

48 came from a Youtube video made by a Websleuths loon. He found a 48-year-old Jennifer Hart in MN and didn't bother to check middle names. Like a lot of things (vegan, Osho, etc.) it has become "fact."

This story is dead. The Mendocino Sheriff's department has moved on to searching for the Thottapilly family, who have been missing for a week now; also in an SUV, underwater, presumed dead.

She says the Hart family stayed with her for two weeks. That's when she realized Jen was not the loving mother she pretended to be. Instead, she says the family was run “like a regimented boot camp, where true kindness, love, and respect for the children was largely absent.”

In a news conference Friday, the Mendocino County Sheriff announced Jennifer's BAC at the time of the crash was .102, and at least two of the children had an ingredient commonly found in Benadryl in their systems.

How much would one have to drink to reach that level? I know that it varies person to person, but...

How long was she driving like that?

I really hope the kids were drugged/asleep when it happened.

Police: Driver in Hart family cliff crash was drunk

of course she was, who wants to kill their family sober?

[quote].100 - Clear deterioration of reaction time and control. This is legally drunk in all states.

If she weighed 240, that's between six and seven drinks according to this chart. At 200 lbs, between five and six.

Carpenter says toxicology tests also found that her wife, Sarah Hart, and two of their adopted children had “a significant amount” of an ingredient commonly found in the allergy drug Benadryl

I do not think she weighed 200 or 240

more like 3 or 4 drinks according to that chart

Boozed up, hm? I don't know why I'm surprised but I am a bit. So now there is a side order of Aunt Diane in all of this...

Drugging them up with Benadryl - well that would do it. Either fast asleep or fainted into unconsciousness. All of them with such light body weights, a double dose would have them all devoid of every sensation until impact. Bitch simply could have said - “here all of you sleep and I will drive us home.” She stopped to make sure they were all asleep, seat belts unbuckles, then over the cliff she went.

R238 There's Something Wrong with Aunt Diane...

Oh shit.

After seeing the photo of Sarah and Jenn face by face up thread, I don't believe for a second that they were the same age. In fact, if I knew nothing about them I would assume they were mother and daughter. Jenn looks early 50s while Sarah could pass for 25(in that one particular photo.) There must be a 10 year age difference.

I tried my best to read through the summation of the Texas case(Harris County) of Celestine and the adoption, but by the end of it I was more confused than ever. I feel quite sad for the grandmother, and I imagine the judges involved in the decision feel bad about the end outcome of their decision. I agree with some who have posited that those were at risk kids whether they stayed in Houston or they were adopted by the Meanie women. They would very likely not have led a Brady Bunch family life had they remained with Granny Celestine. But they likely would have survived their 18th birthdays. So....bad decision by the court.

Judging from the recent photos, I would say she weighed 200. Now, if she is very short, it could be higher, but assuming she's 5'6-5'8, I think she was a size 14/16.

She wasn't fat and that last photo isn't very clear.

R241 Given the fact that they drove into the ocean around the time that most kids would be getting ready for bed (after 9:30PM on Sunday, March 25th) Benadryl could effectively send the kids off to dreamland.

I'm a little surprised because I assumed someone so selfish and sadistic to kill all six of their kids would have gotten off on hearing them plummet to their deaths.

Also, since everything I know about cars & cliffs is from TV,-- Can someone please explain why the vehicle did not explode when it crashed into the rocks and waves? ;-)

In the article it says 2 of the 3 kids had heavy doses of benadryl in their systems. Maybe she only gave the benadryl to the kids she liked?

Sarah had benadryl in her system, too

maybe they haven't finished the testing?

R252 here, i wish i could delete my comment. you are correct, R253, they haven't finished testing.

No explosion. Water. Only television cars always explode.

It made the whole thing a lot easier for her if everyone was out - notice she had to be totally plastered herself. She will go down as one of the biggest female killers in history, goddamit a Lesbian to boot.

I bet never, not for one single day did these two women ever work on thier issues of racism or white priviledge.

R250, she was fat. She was so fat she looked pregnant.

R248, I have been going back and forth about what their lives would have been like, depending on the situation.

My conclusion is that they would have been better off with their bio families. Even if it had been chaotic and some shady people around, they would have been free. They would have been in school where there were mandated reporters. Their aunt would have at least taken them to the doctor and dentist once in a while. Maybe in school they would have found mentors in their teachers. They would have been able to use computers. They would have been able to enjoy being with people who looked like them and understood them.

They would have had a chance.

.........

why does the choice have to be between two bad situations?

I wonder when she was drinking? Do you think she was chugging beers while the whole family sleptin the car? Did they camp somewhere and she started drinking there?

Hehe so it was an accident after all. Booze and Benedryl, dark night. You frauen are always mean to each other because i you hate yourselves.

R260, that’s a good point. It shouldn’t have been. But it was.

I wish I could press a “rewind” button and made their bio mother infertile.

R261, that sounds about right. Maybe she told everyone to take their sleepy pills and once they nodded off, she took a few shots and GERONIMO.

I don't know if this has already been linked, but there are lots of photos here. Click on the 88 and scroll down.

She wasn't fat?? Have you not seen the 25 or so photos of her in those black and white tribal./batik-like leggings?

Okay, she was zaftig,

not fat

The foster daughter said Jen loved kids, that she wasn't in it for the money, that they took her to many events, that they were kind to her. A lot of you were hoping to glean negative info to pile on Jen. But there is none so you ignore her interview What's wrong with you, ladies? Why so mean?

I'm just trying to envision the timeline of that night. I guess Jen talked the family into taking a hefty dose Benedryl before starting their drive, telling them to get a good night's sleep while she drove and that Sarah could take over driving in Oregon the morning. The crash site wasn't far from the origin, so I doubt she drank 4-6 drinks [italic]while[/italic] driving. She probably stopped at the pull-off, knowing ahead of time that that was the destination, and then downed a six pack while sitting there lamenting how badly the world was treating her. Once she felt sufficiently buzzed, she unbuckled everybody and, as the title of the thread implies, put the pedal to the metal. Fucking shame, whatever the timeline. Also sad that this will play into the festival crowd's claims that this was an accident..."There was no abuse. She had one too many Bud Lite Limes and dozed off at the wheel. #RIP Hart Tribe".

R267 Not recent.

recent and not fat

R268 is Max or Zippy.

She was a fat mentally ill murderous cunt. And she looked like Sarah’s mom.

I don’t like people who abuse and kill children.

[quote]The crash site wasn't far from the origin, so I doubt she drank 4-6 drinks while driving.

You know the origin?

Makes sense she drugged them. 6 kids and her partner would definitely have been screaming, trying to stop her, trying to get out of the car, etc. , if they were fully awake. Poor kids. She could have just killed herself and left them to live. Yeah this really has many of the signs of a personality disorder having taken over.

Sarah should have split from her when she made her take that charge.

Wow, this just keeps getting weirder and weirder. I'm looking forward to the indie documentary that is sure to come. I just hope it doesn't portray Jennifer and Sarah Hart in a sympathetic light, as the filmmakers of "There's Something Wrong With Aunt Diane" did with the abominable Diane Shuler. They made it seem like she was a basically "good" person who got a little sick and overmedicated herself with booze and pot, and ended up killing eight people, including herself and four children. I hope Jennifer and Sarah Hart aren't made out out to be basically "good" people who got in over their heads by adopting a slew of children with various problems and ended up snapping under the pressure and killing themselves and all of the children. I hope they're made out to be as bad as they were.

R276, I didn’t think “There’s Something Wrong With Aunt Diane” made her seem like a good person. She seemed like an asshole to me. A pathetic control freak asshole. In my head, I’m conflating her with Jen already.

R262 R268 Didnt you read this article? These were NOT nice women. I hope this bill IS PASSED so something like this will never happen again.

This is the petition to create a National Registry to protect Children.

"I didn’t think “There’s Something Wrong With Aunt Diane” made her seem like a good person."

I thought it did. It implied that she wasn't feeling well and drank vodka and smoked pot to relieve it, but overdid it and went into a "delirium" that caused her to speed over a mile in the wrong direction on the Taconic State Parkway. One of the commentators in the film, a doctor or an official or somebody like that, actually said that she was a "good person." The movie really softened what Shuler was, an impulsive, controlling secret alcoholic and pothead. I wish the movie had raked her over the coals.

It wasn't an accident--an accident wouldn't have someone accelerating in a straight line for 70 feet. Even if you accidentally hit the gas pedal instead of the brake, your instinct would be to swerve. It also takes some doing to get that kind of acceleration going from a dead stop on mud.

Benadryl is used by a lot of families to dope up kids for trips--it's mild and works as an alternative to a crying baby on a plane. So, yes, probably what it was used for. Sara was upset, anxious and feeling ill--so it would make sense she might take Benadryl to sleep for a long journey.

It's possible, over the years, that Sara had talked Jen out of suicidal impulses before, but she wasn't awake to do it this time. Or she might have been in agreement this time. We'll never know. Both, IMO, are at fault.

And, yes, since they're dead--the natal family we know about would have been the better option--the aunt actually tried to get custody--that's work and money. I suspect Texas just wanted them out of the system. The New Yorker had a story in the New Yorker about a single mother who lost custody of her kid because she left him in his crib while she went to a job interview. Even though she did all the stuff she was supposed to (and had a good job as a programmer), she still lost custody--mostly, because the kid was young, cute, white and, thus, had a foster family that really wanted to adopt him. There's a certain point when the system seems to start working against reunification. If it had been a different foster family, she probably would have had the kid back in no time.

I was surprised that Jenn did not graduate with a degree, Sarah did.

I have known a few people who went to college, never graduated, were always kinda off and the women got much worse and more dysfunctional in mid-life.

Jenn has ALWAYS looked way older than Sarah and the difference in recent photos is quite striking. A bit has come out about Sarah but I am not sure if much is known of Jenn and her childhood and family. One or both of them was exposed to an abusive household.

If they were THAT abusive in someone elses home, what were they like in private? Or had they lost any sense of propriety at that point? Really disturbing story.

Grape juice?

There are a lot of photos of Jeremiah and Devonte in just shorts or in underwear. Just those 2.

I have known parents who were drunks who had their kids drink mocktails to keep them company while they boozed it up.

Anyone familiar with this? The tribute seems odd about a client? Dunno.

The aunt in Houston's heartbreaking story.

Some believe that the women followed the dubious advice of this woman re adopted kids, this is from Quack Watch. It does sound familiar.

Since they were never around other families and kids, they never had a reality check about normal kid behavior or adult responses to it.

Despite the use of the word attachment, it is the OPPOSITE of what is commonly known as attachment parenting.

This sounds a LOT like what the former friend in SF reported to CPS, wow.

Why don't you ghouls go back to websleuths? Your fetish for homicide & torture is grotesque. You are the people for whom movies like SAW are made.

Jenn & Sarah were house guests from HELL. I hope that information is shared between states in the future.

R290, I guarantee that I have been on DL longer than you. I do not even know what websleuths is. If you do not want to read this thread, scroll on by.

What does #protect the community mean?

I think the book should be called something like - The Terrible Cost of Free Hugs

No it will be Free Hugs:

and the second part of the title will have something about a nightmare or tragedy

Yes, “Free Hugs.” I positively HATE that neighbor husband.

Why R294?

Try to eep up! Just read the damn story. He was ok with Devonte begging for food, saying they were hungry for a nearly a week before he assented to his wife calling CPS.

So the lesbians are now following Quiverfull/IBLP RAD practices when yesterday they were members of a new-age meditation cult?

It’s a bit hard to keep up.

Oh, R296, I expected you to say that only the FIL called after Hannah came over in the middle of the night.

I hate Jenn and Sarah, who are solely responsible for the abuse and murder of these kids. Unless the cops came unexpectedly with a warrant, unlikely since the records are not shared across states, Jenn would always have taken the kids out on her terms. Lots of people had called in lots of places, Sarah had a criminal conviction for abuse of one girl, another girl when to school bruised while the second adoption was PENDING. It was still approved despite a bio aunt fighting hard for custody of the next 3 in TX. So, lots of things to feel hate about but the neighbor at least did try to help. How many kids have you fed or rescued today?

Sure is some mix of both, R297.

It was an acident, you hateful freaks.

I think R274 is right. Someone earlier said they bet Jenn had poisoned them. She did, with Benedryl. Jenn truly thought she loved those kids and were raising them right. That was part of her mental illness and Sarah was her enabler. With CPS called again she was not going to let them take her family. That's how I see it. The aunt admitted in the one interview linked that she called the mom to babysit the kids and was upset she had to go by CPS's rules on that. That is why they wouldn't let her adopt. Big no no to have the mom babysit unsupervised when CPS told her they couldn't have contact with the mom. Those kids were just screwed by everyone.

R300 You are joking, right?

More with Nacho Bear

Is this David Chilly Love?

R298, R296 here. I Mentor so you can just buzz off. The husband was neglectful for 5 days worth. His own FIL made that point.

301 I was the one who posted they were poisoned upthread and was laughed at

Wrong link at R304, think THIS is David Chilly Love?

R304 is Nahko

Tubby Love is actually skinny, so think this is David Chilly Love?

R305, the incident with Hannah was MONTHS earlier. There are timelines. That is what the FIL called about. to get a welfare check. The sheriff did not feel like it.

Good for you for trying to help kids. Not enough do.

Blaming people who tried to get the kids help shifts the focus from Jenn and Sarah, the murderer and enabler. I do not believe that Jenn would have allowed those kids to be removed alive, so who called about what in which state was not likely to ever make a difference, just MHO, YMMV.

Bio mom, yikes

Jennifer Hart, high school

R308 I disagree totally. It is important that people in society understand the basics, including “it takes a village.” People that see abuse, should report it. People that see children severely stressed or frightened should report it. The husband was negligent - TWICE. He took nearly a week on the second occaision to report events to the CPS. No one is taking the damn focus off those two women - every headline screams it.

People are too fucking lazy to step outside thier comfort zones to look out for the most vulnerable amongst us. They were FUCKING CHILDREN - what are YOU hiding R308 - what have you neglected?? Child rapes? Starving kids? Elder Abuse? Get real - it is largely obvious when children are deeply abused - you ASK THEM esp if they are CONFIDING IN YOU AND ASKING FOR HELP. People like you are disgrace.

R305 is a Bot

These kids were literally crying out for help, going to people's houses, begging for food, begging for help. WHY were they not removed from this obviously abusive home? Why was nothing done to get those kids out of there? That's what boggles my mind. What do abused children have to do to get help these days? Boy, being a kid truly sucks. You're at the mercy at whatever adults happen to have possession of you.

Meant to say R308 is the Bot....

Now it seems they didn't take the kids to dentists....that alone should be enough to pull them out of that adopted "home"

Hannah most likely was trying to get the neighbors to take her (and the other kids) to Seattle to be with the woman who reported the cruel treatment by the moms to CPS.

According to the photo caption of that old guy w/ Devonte's bio mom, he is the bio dad of Jeremiah and Sierra. So that means that Sierra and Devonte were not twins (unless by some rare occurrence, one guy's sperm fertilized one egg and another guy's sperm fertilize the other).

The sheriff said that they didn't find any luggage or sleeping bags. It's possible that they washed out to sea.

Jenn looked old even in high school. Being overweight makes you look older and being an alcoholic ages you really fast.

Whoever said that the moms were nice to the foster girl. Yeah, really nice they led her on thinking she was going to be the older sister of the newly adopted TX trio and then ditched her without warning and cut off all contact.

Foster kids already deal w/ abandonment issues. What a horribly cruel thing to do to her. And to lie about her eating out of the trash is an awful thing that they repeated w/ one of the adopted daughters.

Do you mean Alexandra Argyropoulos who contacted DHS in Oregon re the Hart's cruel treatment of their kids? She lives in the Bay Area.

Yes, Alexandra. I thought she lived in Seattle.

I think I mocked the person who suggested the poison motive. Apologies.

Poisoning and drugging are two different things. One is to kill, the other to temporarily incapacitate. We also don’t know who took the sleepy potion willingly or knowingly.

But yeah.

Only one kid had Benedryl in his system, insipid twits.

For everyone who thinks calling CPS and removal are a perfect way to achieve safety for kids, TX REMOVED them and put them with Jenn and Sarah. The neighbor calling and CPS coming were what triggered the driving off the cliff. A record of calling is not necessarily even disseminated, it does not appear that the CPS worker going in response to the call about Devonte knew about the call about Hannah.

Try to help. Call if you are concerned. But the simplistic thinking is just wrong. Read what happens in a lot of foster homes and group homes, it is not pretty and may be more deadly than the home that kids were pulled from. Read what happens with a lot of international adoptions. Read the story about the Ethiopian girl who was starved to death, linked above. Her brother was ultimately saved, but it took time. Jenn was not going to allow an end that was not on her terms. She likely had plans for a Jonestown exit since the night Hannah ran, if not before.

A lot of kids are vulnerable whether they are in their "birth" homes, adopted, or fostered. Society doesn't talk about it because it is a huge problem with no real solutions in sight.

Yes, R313 and R323. And foster homes and group homes are not free of exploitative adults either. It has always been very dangerous to be a kid. Changing the law so information is shared across state lines may help save lives, but that will not change the fact that removal is often out of the frying pan and into the fire.

Safety or exploitation?

Frying pan to fire

People want simplistic answers that make them feel good.

There is a continuous need for young bodies (typically kids of color from the system) and for young images (often white kids, often created in the home). The US leads the world in the creation of images of children. No one wants to think of either of these things, the suggestion that Devonte was being groomed with the free hugs bs and the commands to hang on half naked men who were not relatives was shouted down on earlier threads. As was the idea that all the photos of Jeremiah and Devonte in underpants or Devonte dancing in underpants at 12 in a PUBLIC youtube video was consistent with advertising techniques (see An Open Secret). Easier to blame the neighbor, who did care and try to help, and to think Jenn is an anomaly and Sarah really loved the kids. There may have been a whole slew of reasons Jenn wanted to keep the kids young looking for as long as possible. Hope they were just starved, beaten, waterboarded and murdered but I would not rule out exploited in images for money if not worse. She had the equipment.

OR foster care, could be anywhere

Some say, I would not call CPS, I would call the police!

Likely middle and middle upper class white people to have a certainty that the police are always some panacea.

That may lead to kids/teens being sex trafficked too.

Often the people attracted to lower paying jobs with a high potential for abuse of power (cps, cops, teachers, judges) have other agendas.

Definitely try to help kids, but do not be naive. And do not just look away from these issues or you are helping enable. There is an enormous amount of evil in the world and kids are so vulnerable and at times, so lucrative.

Is there truly no way that this woman was so drunk that she simply drove over this cliff? The roads are windy and unlit? I had no idea that it was night when that truck crashed...

It is clear that these women were both FUCKED in the head.

The Benadryl thing would depend on the levels in the blood. Couldn't they all have allergies? I know entire families who have allergies and take that shit-

I have a hard time wrapping my head around a woman being so fucking evil to truly do this..

She punched a first grader black and blue and held her head under water in a cold tub, 10 years ago, for having a penny in her pocket. I have no problem seeing her killing them all.

Sadly, there is no shortage of evil people on this planet. They tend to prey on kids, the disabled and the elderly most readily.

A little has come out about Sarah and her family, not much about Jenn. Why did she leave college without a degree? Did something happen when they were both training to be teachers that indicated that they would not be fit? Seems a given that her family was abusive, did they also exploit the system by taking in kids for $?

Kids are so vulnerable, where do you get a supply of them?

Jenn was not an anomoly

If you have lived to adulthood without knowing how evil can be easily be perpetrated on kids, count yourself lucky. Out of the frying pan and into the fire could be the story of millions of kids, not just these 6.

Class actions on behalf of kids, judicial oversight of the system, lawyers make money but little changes. The financial incentives should be changed and homeschoolers supervised by the BOE, which might help deter some abuse.

If you are a stable person with good social support, consider fostering one child. There are far too few SAFE places for them to go, if removed.

are there stable people on DL?

Debatable.

But, the only person you can control is you. Blind faith in a system that already made these kids lives worse is willful ignorance.

The neighbor said he was not surprised at how it ended. Tragic. He read Jenn accurately, based on their few interactions.

Someone on another thread said they had seen the cops come with a warrant and take a door off hinges to do a removal of kids. Rarely does that happen with anyone, even less frequently when the adults involved are white. Jenn was a family annihilator, with her own little Jonestown. Not only would a phone call not have been likely to save those kids, a phone call triggered their demise.

Change the laws re: sharing of info, change the degree of regulation of homeschoolers, change the financial incentives for a supply of kids to adopt out of the system. Do what YOU can, in your orbit. Offer to help a relative who is struggling by babysitting, taking an older child for a summer, etc. No one was able to save these kids but knowing people cared helped them hang on. Do not be so quick to victim blame or to dismiss issues about control or grooming.

Men and women who have been physically attacked and bullied for their sexuality, cut out of families, fired from jobs, why such a rosy view of what humans are capable of? Is everyone here middle and upper middle class with great life and childhood experiences? Maybe those who know the real deal are avoiding this thread and the same sad tale...

As the cheesy song said, and it has always been true...

Of 909 victims of mass murder (defined as 4 victims within a 24-hour period) in the US from 1900 to 2000, more than half occurred within an immediate family. Although the total number of familicide cases are relatively rare, they are the most common form of mass killings.

Scary...hope the kids were asleep and not scared. RIP.

[post redacted because independent.co.uk thinks that links to their ridiculous rag are a bad thing. Somebody might want to tell them how the internet works. Or not. We don't really care. They do suck though. Our advice is that you should not click on the link and whatever you do, don't read their truly terrible articles.]

Is this Jay Lash in the photo? With Devonte? Or Jeremiah?

Anyone been to Beloved?

The Independent has a good article on family anihlators. Since DL will not allow a link, try

www. (dot)i ndependent (dot) co (dot) uk/news/uk/crime/anatomy-of-family-murder-killing-spree-home-invasion-a7639966 (html)

you can still get the article if you click on R337

Thanks, R340.

No way to know if the Harts had anything to do with Osho, but there are ties to Beloved. The stories out of OR are amazing. Anyone seen the Netflix series? #protect the community has overtones

R335 “The neighbor said he was not surprised at how it ended. Tragic. He read Jenn accurately, based on their few interactions.“

And yet, R335, like the male neighbor just wants us all to collapse in a helpless mass and ... do NOTHING about these kids - because Nothing works at all...or be afraid of the Jenns/abusers of the world.

People this is how Americans are trolled and defeated by Bots, the GOP : our institutions and public services are hopeless and useless. So just deal with it and give up.

Bottom line - reject bullshit like the above - if you see kids being abused - going hungry call the cops - vote to fix and fund our Social Services Safety Net. And fuck that neighbor that listened to Devonte plead for food for nearly a week.

CPS in OR did not document the sizes and weights of the kids. There was objective evidence that could have been obtained that could have correlated the report of the adult about the withholding of food. Yet, the investigation was closed at the first pretext for doing so.

Blind faith in phone calls is just not borne out by these kids and their worsening situation with each call. After OR they were isolated even from the festival people.

Not saying not to call but the call by the DeKalbs was literally the catalyst for the family annihilator. Removal in TX led to their placement with the Harts. There are no simple, easy answers.

R343 Jesus we get it “no simple easy answers.” What the fuck with your CPS is useless trolling? Blocked.

The only way to prevent , decrease and intervene against child abuse is to ensure that adopted and foster children have comprehensive benefits for life. Right now, CPS and the partner programs are beacons for child abusers and nut jobs. We have to cut those people off. Children belong in a good school too with great teachers. And what the fuck is a social worker? These children have already been through the ringer, they need the best medical doctors and expert child psychologists. Not some losers, abusers, nut jobs.

If you block the “CPS is useless” troll many many many posts disappear. I think this thread is being trolled by a Bot.

If you are concerned, plan before you call to maximize chances that the victims (kids or adults) will be made safer.

Gather evidence if it is safe to do so without tipping off the abuser. It can be easier to help adults, abusers literally have legal control over kids, ,so be strategic. Photos are helpful. Provide a burner phone to victims. A recording device can create evidence. Get advice on safety planning, many DV groups can provide this, I have linked a national hotline. Consider having someone perceived as highly credible within the system make the report - was the acquaintance downplayed as a hysterical woman? Was the older man a dismissable old coot? Sucks that stereotypes exist but be strategic when there are literally lives on the line. Even a written log of observations over time can be perceived differently and as more credible than just a verbal account. If you know people who work within the system in some capacity, try to get the report steered to someone most likely to act, unlike the workers in OR who did not establish heights or weights to correlate the report of food being withheld or the sheriff in WA whose office declined to make the drive for a welfare check. We all have networks, use yours if there are useful connections.

Most importantly, if you are concerned about a child who is a relative, first get certified to provide care so that there is a place for the kids to go when the report is made. This greatly increases the chance of action being taken. Placement with safe, certified family members GREATLY increases the chance of action and of greater safety being the outcome.

TX investigated and put the kids with the Harts. MN investigated and the second adoption was still allowed despite a kid being beaten with a belt while the adoption was pending. MN convicted Sarah and then the kids were removed from schools. OR found the report unfounded at the first opportunity and did not even try to document physical evidence of heights and weights. After that report the kids were isolated even from the festival acquaintances. WA LE declined to do a welfare check when called re: Hannah and her midnight escape attempt. When CPS was called in WA, the kids were murdered. Not the outcome that anyone but Jenn and possibly Sarah wanted. So what might have made a difference? Strategy, documented evidence, sharing of information across state lines, access to the kids by trained mandated reporters.

WIshing and hoping and misplaced blind faith do not change the reality of abusers. Can and does the system protect victims sometimes? YES!!! Be smart and thoughtful about how to increase the chances of that outcome. If the victims are kids, there may just be ONE chance. Do not be so quick to deny and minimize reality when it is unpleasant. Be informed, be smart, work the system like Jenn and Sarah, but to the end of the kids SURVIVING.

Just trying to raise awareness as to how to increase the odds of greater safety and survival. Mrs. DeKalb is visibly shattered by the fact that she wanted to help, she tried to help, and this was the outcome. Be as strategic and as informed as possible to increase the chances of increased safety and an outcome different than frying pan to fire.

Not one, R321. Two children (and Sarah) had significant amounts of Benadryl in their system. The labs haven't come back yet on the third.

No way to know but wonder if that was common on their drives as they were said to sleep in the suv to save $. Not comfortable for that many people in vehicle that size, so maybe this helped everyone sleep? If Jenn was bipolar, as has been speculated on these threads, maybe that mania helped her drive through the night. Guess I am just hoping that the kids did not know what was coming.

It sounds like tensions were building in the home for a while. I read that the former festival friend who reported them may have moved to Seattle? Perhaps that is who they were trying to escape to?

I keep being struck by the fact that they had not given up. So tragic.

Those plans do not help or work. There is no protection from Intimate partner, family and child abuse. There is no program. Most shelters are private and they cherry pick only some woman. These shelter are not link to any state or federal programs because there is not one. Shelters tend to be run by religious nut jobs. They can throw woman and children out on the street at any time. If women run to a shelter, they lose property and housing rights too.

There is, also, no property and housing right and protection program for CHILDREN.

Some children and adults DO get to safety, R350. No guarantee but if concern, rather than self righteousness, is the motivation for wanting to help, better to try to make them safer rather than less safe due to your attempts.

A lot of kids do get removed and put with safe family members, the best outcome. Far better than rolling the dice re group homes or foster care which often attract predators (see Jenn and Sarah).

Adults can try to disappear once they have escaped.

Markis was an adult but may have been disabled. The kids were in a very cult like environment, very like Jonestown. The degree of isolation was extreme, like the Turpins. But they lived to tell, sadly, Devonte, Markis, Jeremiah, Hannah, Abigail and Sierra did not. All we can do is try to learn how to increase the chances for a better outcome next time. We cannot control anyone but ourselves. Unless we are system actors, all we can do is be as informed as we can as to how to best influence them to act decisively in a way that increases safety. In the case of the Harts, tragically, all system actions resulted in greater isolation and ultimately, death. We cannot change that but we can learn from it.

Homeschooling should not be allowed if there is any conviction for child abuse. Kids pulled out of schools should be tracked by BOEs. That is one place where change may be possible although there is a homeschool lobby. Tracking CPS actions and abuse convictions across state lines is another. Not aware of a group that would lobby against that.

There are photos at R286's link

I guess he put that up before more details were released.

Sierra at a festival

An article from OR:

Maples’ horrific death drew increased attention to the isolation that some abused or neglected children face. In 2010, an official state review into her death identified the need to train workers what to do when children don’t have access to “traditional community supports,” such as schools or regular doctor visits. The review said the department would consult outside experts to improve practices for children who appear to have been cut off from the outside world.

“Experts will be asked to advise the department on how to improve its evaluation of information both when screening and assessing calls of suspected abuse involving children who are more isolated,” the summary of that review said.

Officials wrote in a 2011 follow up that all case workers would be trained using that expertise by February 2012.

That year, after consulting with national experts, Department of Human Services officials beefed up their written guidance for case workers on assessing whether at-risk children are isolated. They also developed a training focused on isolated children. They shared that with case workers and their supervisors online, including through a 90-minute interactive webinar.

But a 2013 independent review found Oregon child welfare workers weren’t faithfully following official guidance on child welfare investigations and needed retraining. The review found wide deviations from the state’s official standards in many units, branches and regions. In a small survey, fewer than 10 percent of child welfare supervisors said they understood the information that workers needed to gather about each child, which included their degree of isolation.

Clackamas County child welfare supervisors did not undergo the retraining the outside experts said was needed to correct that problem until November 2013, after the Hart case had been closed. Lois Day, who became Oregon’s child welfare director in 2011, was fired for poor performance in 2016.

Under the protocol written in 2012 and covered in the 2013 retraining, social workers must look for signs that the children may be isolated and seek opinions from people outside the family. Among the questions case workers are instructed to consider: Does the child have access to individuals who can protect (them)? Do they have a place to go for help? Do they have friends/relatives/neighbors they can talk to? How often? Do they have access to a phone? A computer?” Jennifer and Sarah Hart had been estranged from their families in South Dakota for years, relatives, friends and law enforcement sources say. The children last attended school in April 2011 when they lived in Minnesota. After they moved to West Linn in 2012 or 2013, next-door-neighbor Bill Groener observed that the family kept to themselves and the children generally remained indoors, even in good weather.

Friends say Jennifer and Sarah Hart made sure none of the children had cell phones or a social media presence and kept them from surfing the Internet. Even close friends of the Harts did not visit them at their home, several said in interviews after the deaths. The closest neighbor to the family’s final home, in rural Woodland, Washington, told child protective workers the blinds were kept closed at all times, the children would literally run from the car into the house and one son told them his parents purposefully hid their children. The boy said his and his siblings didn’t speak up about their parents’ abuse because they feared the six of them would be split up, neighbor Dana DeKalb told child welfare workers.

The part about them not having cell phones or being on the net is in line with environmental/New Age type thinking (and frankly, intellectual thinking) - it should not be included as a list of abuse

It is on a list of signs of isolation that CPS is supposed to look for. Might be great to not have electronics if the kids attended school, or had activities, or had family they saw regularly. They were completely cut off in every way, which CPS is supposed to take seriously. There was no safety net around these kids. No contact with mandated reporters, teachers, doctors, etc. They could not use dental records to identify the girl found in the oceans since they cannot find a dentist who treated the kids, despite Jenn posting about Hannah being at the dentist.

Many kids who are home schooled use an online curriculum. They Skype with friends and relatives. In this particular case, it was another source of potential help that was blocked.

R355, it is definitely abuse to keep people separated from friends or family or make it impossible for them to callfor help. Especially if you live in a remote location.

My dad lived in a very remote area and had many chronic illnesses and was frail. He was kept from calling or receiving calls from concerned family members. His siblings would call and be told by his abusive wife that he was napping. He was right there listening, but terrified to call out because he had been beaten and his life was threatened. Family members who called were told again and again that he was unavailable. We all suspected something was wrong, but couldn’t get through.

He finally was able to call when his wife was gone. He arranged to be picked up early in the morning when she was asleep. But even in those horrible circumstances he was unwilling to leave immediately. It took weeks to coax him out.

I think that people in these circumstances have Stockholm Syndrome and even though they know they have to leave, they are so fearful to be out in the world in interacting with people after years of isolation, they need to be reassured they’ll be taken care of elsewhere before they’ll go. Just escaping to some unknown fate isn’t enough.

In every case I’ve heard of, the abuse victim just calling for help takes an extreme incident, because they are so isolated, they can’t imagine being able to function in the real world again with normal interactions and challenges. They feel incapable.

That’s exactly why isolating is a prime form of abuse.

Anyone on this thread from PNW? Wonder why the stop/drive to Naselle WA before heading south? It has a population of only a few hundred. Anyone been there, or know anything about it?

A lot of kids are targeted, groomed, bullied and some have been lured for rape and murder via social media.

Plus it increases stupidity!

blocked the cps and child trafficking trolls, i think about 30 posts are gone. Someone is obsessed.

But, but, but, according to DL, children are NEVER groomed nor trafficked, R359!

R360 may block you, but I blocked him instead. Cannot fix stupid and willfully naive. He is probably a Max Ribner and Nacho fan.

CPS is ridiculous to be pro social media/internet as this is well known. Cell phones have been linked to health problems as well especially young people. Social media/phones/internet are not suitable for children.

I don't think this case had anything to do with trafficking, though. There are cases where that happens but I think this is a parent who didn't know how to be a parent and ended in crazy panic-murder. I think people who have no idea about hippies or new age types are imaging more sinister stuff than really exists. I think this couple went to the music fests because it was a social thing for them and on some level they liked the ideals though obviously did not live up to them.

Maybe. But the public vid of a 12 year old dancing in his underpants is unusual, as is the boasted of thousands of free hugs on command, seemingly mostly given to adult men. There are a lot of photos of teen Devonte and teen Jeremiah in underpants that were public on FB before Jenns page was locked down after their deaths. The girls always seem to be fully dressed, but not those 2 boys. Jenn had a lot of camera and video equipment. You never know and a lot of red flags were present. Hopefully that was the one means of exploitation she skipped but nothing can be ruled out with someone capable of long term starvation of and later murder of 6 kids.

Wonder why Jenn did not graduate from college? Wonder why Sarah never taught, despite having a degree in it? Wonder what went on in Jenns family?

Many shelters don't have the resources to accept male children over a certain age. A friend of mine needed a shelter to escape her partner and she had no choice but to leave her 14 year old son behind as the shelter wasn't equipped to handle older boys. Another shelter accepted teen boys up to the age of 16, but it was full at the time.

[quote]Wonder why Jenn did not graduate from college? Wonder why Sarah never taught, despite having a degree in it? Wonder what went on in Jenns family?

A lot of people drop out/do not finish. It isn't that mysterious. A lot of people do not work in the field they studied.

I just think the free hugs thing was part of the peace love thing they were into. I do not think it was about anything else. The free hugs idea has been around for a while. I actually got a "free hug" once from a person that was doing it on a street corner with some other 20 somethings. It can actually be cute and harmless but yes they went overboard with it. We don't know if Devonte liked doing it or not. They seemed like very nice kids, too bad there was such a terrible end

I was the one who posted the link re safety planning as it was one that addressed the safety of children.

I do not think either woman was the victim of the other, nor was one trying to escape. I think both victimized the children, since they met them. The kids, if removed, would likely have gone into group homes, perhaps foster care. Maximizing the chances of a successful intervention where the kids are made safer is the goal, not making a phone call and patting yourself on the back. Be informed. Be strategic. Know the risks and how to minimize them. Lives are on the line.

I am sorry that your friend had that experience and hope she and her son are ok now. That must have been a terrible choice.

R364 seriously?! But that’s her KID!! That makes me so angry that they would put her through even more pain and agony than she already was!

I had no idea that there were some places that have restrictions like that when it comes to what kid they will accept or until what age they will accept them in. That’s just heartbreaking. I hope her and her son are doing okay now❤️

R306 Thank you so much for all your insight and advice. Photos are an excellent idea, burner phones, all of it. I esp agree that reaching out to an influential person to advocate is also critical. I am planning to share your post. It is important. Those kids would be alive if this information had been common knowledge....

The one shelter she was at didn't take males over the age of 12, the other over the age of 16, R366/R367. I don't think it's because they set out to separate teen boys from their mothers on purpose, more that they don't have the space for older boys. Anyway, they're both doing better now, thanks.

Benadryl in the system doesn't mean anyone was poisoned. It does indicate that people were possibly asleep.

This is already terrible, but some posters seem to look for ways to make it even more terrible--and there's a whiff of horrified glee to go with it. Ugh.

It doesn't mean they were poisoned. But it does make it easier for the driver to drive off the cliff and take out 4-- or 7-- other lives along with your own. (I hope LE will clarify what the reported "substantial" amounts of Benadryl equals.) #nogleehere

Benadryl works well for allergy and guess what? Its allergy season in Calif. And only one of the kids had signs of Benadryl use. Are you girls rubbing one out as you fantasize the facts of this case?

House in MN

Hey Op, this is not a fictional soap opera. These kids were really abused and killed. We need really justice and action to prevent this from happening to other children in the cps system.

If Jen was going to poison her family she would have used something stronger than benadryl. Poisoning is trying to kill someone with a substance. She drugged them with the benadryl and then drove off the cliff.

Which CPS system were the kids in, R374?

Datalounge is the dumping ground for all things not allowed on Websleuths.

Well did they have any new photos or info at websleuths or is it just the dumb talk about nothing?

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

R379

It also could have been student loan debt.

Is it the drugs or are these transformative festival people naturally strange?

The young girls were magical negros too. They also seem to lack boundaries about physicality with adults who are not family. Nacho and Max were not the only ones who loved the attention of the kids.

R367

Many shelters have residents sleeping on cots in one large room. In that instance, allowing teen boys to stay in those shelters is inappropriate, if not dangerous. The solution is to have more shelters for families that are equipped to handle teen boys who may or may not be safe to have in one big room with vulnerable girls and women.

R358

I’ve lived in Seattle for 15 years, and I’ve never heard of it. It looks like it’s sort of one the way to Astoria, where the Goonies house is, although driving on the Oregon side of the border would have been faster.

Yeah, they usually don't let boys over 12 in women's shelters. It's been a debate for a long time, but most of the time teen boys can find either their own place to stay or they're put into foster care. This is an old article, but it shows that the debate has been around for a long time. JFYI, most shelters I've heard of have no problem taking boys under 10-12 though.

R329

The SUV was northbound before it made a left turn onto the lookout, stopped for a while, and then accelerated off the cliff with no skid marks from swerving or braking. Does that sound like an accident?

Some people persist in putting Turpin info into this case when we don't really know.

It's stupid to give kids cellphones or have them on social media. The environmentalist types are against it. There are photos of the kids posting with books.

Why didn't the two fucked up women just kill themselves? Why did they feel it was necessary to kill the children too? To end their young lives was just pure evil.

Yeah, the kids should have been left alone to live. I do not think both of the women were in on it.

So they could not tell what the women were really like, I assume, R388. Jenn probably thought that everyone was as gullible as the hippies and would think it was a tragic accident.

More details about what was said to CPS here, records released yesterday

R381 R382

Those poor Hart kids surrounded by adults with emotional/psych issues who projected onto them.

The Hart kids were used as minstrels, models, props, punching bags, worker bees, and apparently massage therapists.

They were children for heaven's sake!

These festival people sound damaged and most likely many are remnants of Osho's enclave as has been brought up. Standing Rock attracted people who had emotional problems. If they were helped to get over their troubled pasts, then I guess I'm ok with it ultimately. But, it can be a burden and distraction to the pressing, urgent problem at hand -- in Standing Rock's case, the stopping of the pipeline being built.

It's very disturbing that Jen and Srah seemed to adhere to that crazy, hateful book that the Xtian mass adopters are using as a handbook. The one that killed the poor Ethiopian girl, Hana, in Seattle. No telling how many other kids are being abused and tortured.

Jen and Srah claiming that the foster girl in MN (and was it Abigail or Hannah?) were eating out of the trash or off the floor sounds like something the Hart moms read in a textbook in college. They knew that particular issue would get immediate results from authorities and used it to their advantage to manipulate the outcome.

The online news reports have so many errors. CNN's article above says that Devonte had 4 sisters instead of 3. That is shoddy reporting.

It's sad to think the kids' last breakfast was a banana. Money was spent for Jen's booze instead - a bottle of Vodka?

R393, it boggles the mind, how any of this stuff gets published. So many typos and inexcusable factual errors.

.....

R395

The Mendocino Sheriff's dept needs to hire someone to be their spokesperson, help create good "missing" flyers and run the website even if they have to get college or high school interns to do it. The sheriff is a disaster.

The worst story was by the news agency who published the garbled story of the Harts and some LE guy w/ a blonde wife that was like the 2 stories got shuffled together. Nothing made sense.

CNN has no excuse for the error about the wrong number of sisters.

Look at his bones, horrible

Skeletal Devonte, wrong link at R398

Jeremiah - who could do this to children?

Ugh, bad link above, need to stop looking at these horrific photos for the nite.

This, is poor Jeremiah - the cruelty, over years, is astounding.

Does anyone know if they would have gotten food stamps?

The girls looked so frail. This is so much like the Terpins. If only OR had weighed and measured them when the report was made.

Nacho is not super observant. Their bones were poking out. Hannahs chest was even worse, all the bones were in sharp relief. They treated these kids as mascots that made the feel good about themselves.

I'm curious about the time-line of the children's adoption. How long were they in care for and did Jen and Sarah participate in a foster to adopt program? If so, how long did they foster the children before they adopted them? Were the children made permanent wards before being placed with the Harts or after?

I posted a bit in one of the other threads about my experience fostering and then adopting from the public system, and it wasn't easy, nor should it be. Multiple people dropped the ball in this case, and sadly, the children paid the price.

There’s a photo of little Hanna with her sternum and upper ribs poking out. I’ve only ever seen that in photos of anorexics or starving African babies. It was horrifying.

I think Hannah was estimated to weight 45 lbs at the time of her disappearance, age 16. Her sibs were tallish (for that family), it is heartbreaking what starvation can do to stunt growth. That is the weight of an average SIX year old girl.

R403

I think the answer is "No" to your question about whether the kids were foster-to-adopt. I think the Houston news agencies have the articles were I read it. Everything seemed to be accelerated or waived.

There are a lot of mistakes in many of the news reports from all states involved. The aunt of Devonte, Jeremiah and Sierra did not lose custody because the bio mom visited. It was because she left the kids with her daughter who then left the kids alone w/ the drug-addled bio mom. This was a violation of a court order.

The aunt seems like she would have been the best guardian. She even rented a 5 bedroom apt (upgrading from her 3 bd) in order to have space for the kids.

R402

The colorful clothes distracted people from looking at the protruding bones. Who is that wearing a diaper next to them, Max?

I notice they had plenty of money for zebra costumes, etc. The kids never wore the same thing to a festival twice. It would have been nice if those bitches had bought them food instead.

R401

That bone protruding is very sad. I wonder if it is part of a birth defect. Devonte's twisted small frame may have been a birth defect also.

I would think that they qualified for SNAP (food stamps) based on the number of kids (plus some were disabled) and that they probably had no savings, debt, and Sarah was the only one pulling in a salary that was probably $50,000.

They may have bought their home in order to receive more SNAP benefits. I wonder if the seller was a festival go-er. I don't get how they could qualify to buy the home that they did.

I wonder whether Sarah ultimately received a cash settlement for being rear-ended in the car crash. It takes a while to get the money, she may have been unable to work, and she may have had a long time in court. So, it would help explain why they were evicted after the crash and then later were able to buy a house.

Why do you think they were disabled, because Jenn said so? Because every word she said was a lie.

I think that it has been reported that the kids had disabilities. The oldest boy, Markis, most certainly appears to have some issues. Also, Sierra speaks during one of the videos (singing guy in pink hot pants) and seems to be challenged.

I did not see it reported anywhere that they had disabilities.

They look quite bright.

R412

this is just one... first paragraph

That is not a credible source, R413

someone has to research it all to get info. It will take a long time.

r310 Jennifer looked middle age already in high school

No parent should require or train their children to embrace total strangers. WTH??

I mean, why? Was it to get more "followers" on YouTube or Instagram in hopes of making a buck? Money the kids would obviously know nothing about?

Was it for a more nefarious purpose?

Too many Americans have "Reality TV show" as a life goal.

Well, we don’t know if they were “challenged” or “disabled” because the children were pulled out of the school that would have assessed them for special needs. Teachers begin screening and assessing in kindergarten. I’ve read that the kids were in three different schools while they lived in MN. I don’t know how those cunts managed the transfers because it’s quite difficult to get one unless you move. And then again, if you DO move, the school will allow children to stay because it’s GOOD to have stability. I suspect Jen heard things she didn’t want to hear and flounced off to another school where she heard the same thing and rinse and repeat. That is just what a BPD would do.

Is there any record of an eviction happening? If so, where did they go?

Is there any record of Sarah taking a leave from work?

Do not forget that Jenn also got a monthly check from TX.

Jenn posted on social media that Hannah was at the dentist. Yet, the authorities have not been able to find a dentist who treated the kids, which is delaying the identification of the girl found later.

So I am dubious about an eviction without proof.

She claimed to have been in a roll over the day after Christmas when travelling with the kids to visit Sarah. Then she posts a photo on social media of the 8 of them already in Portland on Christmas day. Both cannot be true. They later used a go fund me to raise $ for a new car, but was the roll over just a story? I get the demands of retail at Christmas but did they get there to spend Christmas with her or did they go on the 26? Did she roll the car or not? If so, what day? Was it a story to raise funds?

2 weeks seems like a long visit for a family of 8

This has a pretty decent timeline

I knew a straight couple who did this with kids they adopted from Russia. The kids did appear to have RAD, they were very physically affectionate with anyone not their adoptive parents. That said, the way the parents treated them seemed abusive and so the kids could be reacting to that too. I cut off contact, it was so uncomfortable to be around. These theories are quackery but desperate parents overwhelmed with the needs of kids they thought that they could love into normalcy, seem to glom onto it.

Kids on stage with other musicians beginning around 5 min mark. Having such little kids around all those drunk and high adults was likely another attention getting tactic of Jenn and Sarah. Toward the end Devonte says peace & love into the mic and Jenn is beyond thrilled.

They were the Jackson 5 and Jenn was Joe. Keeping them small kept them cute longer and starvation kept them weak and controlled.

Shangri-La was 6 years ago - Jenn hyped it on social media

The costumes were attention getting and definitely obscured, at times, the starvation

The part about gathering enough picks for his siblings seems true, given that he was trying to get food for them this year.

That was too chaotic a scene for little kids. If they liked the music scene so much they shouldn't have taken kids in.

All the kids are dressed in funky new agey style not just them

The kids were how they befriended the musicians though and how they got on stage. Jenn would never have stood out in that world without the kids.

It doesn't surprise me when I heard Jen was from Huron, SD. Huron is full of the most mentally unbalanced, inbred morons in a state full of mentally unbalanced, inbred morons. It is the asshole of South Dakota. I'm positive now, given that and their "education," at Northern State, (an awful school composed of 3rd rate everything) that they were planning to game the system from day one.

Jenn and Sarah look very well fed. Hannah was estimated to weigh 45 lbs at 16.

Too bad the Harts lived in PNW and not NJ. These kids got luckier.

There was NO reason that CPS could not have gotten heights and weights on the kids to substantiate the report in OR.

In the NJ case, involvement of CPS did not rescue the kids but it did not trigger annihilation by the parents.

Once hospitalized and fed normally, the teen boys gained weight rapidly. So much for the eating disorder BS that covers for the most shocking of cruelty.

I hope the other kids in the house, who tried to cover for the adults, get a lot of help and that they never have kids.

I had been unaware of this particular type of depravity until fairly recently. Acquiring victims, being lauded as white saviors, the impunity, all while being funded by the taxpayer.

No school, no medical care, no interventions to enable the kids to be functional adults should = NO CHECK for these sicko parents. THAT would have gotten Jenns attention.

One boy from the NJ family grew 15 inches and gained 95 lbs. Human resilience, if given a chance, is truly remarkable.

Caseworkers were useless re that family too and were far more heavily involved. The boys were not as isolated, but people at their church bought the lies.

RIP Markis, Jeramiah, Devonte, Hannah, Abigail and Ciera Rose. You deserved so much better.

A CPS worker who was involved in saving the brother of Hana posted elsewhere about the Harts. It took a while, but he was gotten out and is alive. Are adoptive families not screened properly? Do they not understand the scope of needs of these kids? Kids with PTSD could not be a worse match for a controlling narcissist. There is punishment instead of compassion. Kids who have food insecurity are typically given boxes of non-perishable food by their CAREGIVERS, NOT THE NEIGHBORS, so that they can have ready access to food they control. Using food as a weapon to the extent that it significantly stunts growth is NOT a treatment for food insecurity, it CAUSES it.

This struck me from the Slate piece

In other words, problems that adoptive parents have frequently attributed solely to adoptees, for being too damaged to adjust to family life, sometimes have a cause in the parents as well, who may embark on challenging adoptions with abundant zeal but no training or preparation, and a system that provides few real checks. Adoptions that go as catastrophically wrong as Hana’s are due to more than just one bad book, but a toxic combination of unprepared and overwhelmed families, inappropriately harsh parenting that exacerbates traumatized children’s behavior, and an oversight system that too often fails to consider either. And the children’s side of the story is rarely told.

Take out fundamentalist Christian and sub in Nahko and veganism and you have Jenn and Sarah.

This, too...

“Any family that tries to bring in adopted children, it’s like trying to put a square peg in a round hole. A lot of people make the assumption that if I just push hard enough, that peg will change into the right shape and will fit into our family,” says Hinman. Sometimes that works, she says, but other times, parents respond to failure by just pushing harder and harder. “I think there was a fear, probably starting way back at the beginning of it, where they crossed over the line and knew they crossed [it] and thought … if we ask for help now, then they’ll take all of our kids.”

The conviction for abuse of Abigail in MN was probably the worst of all worlds, triggering the removal of the kids from public schools while not creating meaningful long term intervention or oversight.

Their arm, esp Markis, are literally skin and bones. How did they not see and how do they not see it still? This Tubby Love/Jay Lash character, anyone know anything about him? Seems like a big fish in a small pond?

How about showing kids love by using the taxes of the people of TX to BUY THEM FOOD AND LET THEM EAT IT?

The picture at r435 of Marquis rail thin arm really explains his “jowls”, they are in fact not jowls at all, rather his jawbones sticking out due to being so malnourished. Horrific.

#protect the community

I think that is Chilly Love behind most of the kids, anyone know who that is behind Markis?

More Heart Visions Photography

David Chilly Love has a lot of photos of the kids on his FBook.

R437 The guy behind Markis is the guy who sings in a video while wearing pink hotpants and a pink scarf. You hear Sierra speak. It's outdoors and the kids are sitting in front of him w/ their backs to the camera. His name is something like Fantazzi. Other posters might remember his name correctly.

Thanks, R439.

You guys are right in that Jenn probably lied about most things on her social media. The news about Sarah being re-ended, eviction, illness/hospitalization came from Jen's post on FB where she was explaining /ranting why she hadn't updated people.

There was something really wrong with Jen. Reminds me of the autistic kids I knew who were laser-focused on some band or TV show. Knew a girl who was fucking OBSESSED with Katrina from Katrina and the Waves. Dude, I don’t even know where she got all the photos (this was pre-internet) and she made fan sketches and wrote fan fiction and shit. She was also moody and quick to anger, etc. I feel like I knew Jen, because I have known people just like her.

Why is Devonte always being held or carried by grown-ass men? Always. I halfway feel like making a compilation of all the photos of him being manhandled.

There is definitely something wrong there. It’s not just one or two photos. It’s everywhere. I’m not the NAMBLA commenter, either. I’m a straight woman.

Fantuzzi

Fantuzzi and Max both seem to be positioning themselves as some kind of lifestyle brands.

He remind anyone else of Tiny Tim?

The Oregonian has added more Rajneeshee pics to their Facebook page. Anyone watching Wild, Wild Country?

For those without FB, a lot of the pictures are also here.

Beloved has some direct Osho connections and is in OR. What about Wookiefoot and Harmony Park in MN? Seems that they were into the festival life as far back as SD?

It struck me in reading about the foster daughter that the women did not seem to have friends their own age, nor did they encourage her to have friends and they prevented her from seeing kids outside of school. They did not try to connect with other families fostering or at her school, she described life as the 3 of them, outside of work and school. Then, they ghosted her. It is very odd.

Anyone on the thread fostered an older child? If so, did you try to meet other families or become involved at their school?

Lots of pics of the kids here if you scroll though, for folks trying to stay out of the media, they are mentioned several times. The photos are from 2015.

I have never seen the Goonies, can anyone do a synopsis or explain why it might have resonated so strongly for Jenn and Sarah?

R448

I'm almost exactly Jenn/Sarah's age, and The Goonies was just one of those movies every kid of our generation saw. The main plot point is of plucky kids saving the town from evil bankers (essentially), so that might have resonated with them, especially with their fixation on molding their kids to be those plucky, heroic kids who save the day. But it also could simply be the nostalgia of their own childhoods -- if it hadn't been the Goonies, it would have been the Breakfast Club.

..........

Thanks, R449.

The FBI has the Devonte, Ciera and Hannah on their kidnapped list. Wonder if they have more information that not all of them were in the car? If so, wish a search had been started more aggressively, sooner, on land. It would be amazing if some of the kids lived and got to grow up.

Places the Hart family may have been, from the FBI.

......

R453 Was camping gear found in the wreckage?

R452 Given the unusual, excessive amount of affection that Devonte showed adults in numerous videos and the fact that the bodies of the missing kids have not surfaced, I think that the FBI is doing the right thing by classifying them as missing persons and actively searching for them. Although there is probably a 1% chance they're still alive, it's good that the FBI is treating it as much more than a 1% chance.

Agree, r456. Not calling it pathological exactly, but I think it’s outside the boundaries of “appropriate“. And maybe so far as “grooming”. Add to it the racial aspect and... yeah that’s not cool.

Just in..hope the other two ran away

Sorry wrong post—was wanting to know if the 4th child of the Hart family was ID’d yet. The one washed ashore a week later

R489, I heard that they haven't been able to ID that one yet because the kids never went to a dentist. They need to test the DNA for a match with the bio families of the missing kids.

Hannah’s description on the FBI’s “missing” site said she may have been wearing a bridge, so it’s possible that a dentist was finally tracked down.

A more likely scenario: that information was relayed to police by someone who had been lied to by Jen. As in, “we had a bridge made but she refuses to wear it.” They were seeing the same festival people year after year; at some point, people must have asked.

Does anyone know if the families of Jen & Sarah have claimed the bodies... damn them both. Fucking Jen and Sarah being her enabler.... I would not be surprised if Sarah knew this would be the end and she agreed to it with Jen - the 2 were such horrific control freaks.

This whole thing, just no matter how familiar we are with RACISM and Child Abuse, occurring by members that would have easily been posters on DL - members of a gay community just has upset me beyond imagination. Those 2 women had everything education priviledge, sure being an out lesbian is still no picnic in this country, but they had to basically turn into “child hoarders” taking advantage of AA children that were at risk but still with loving family members??

They never added one single thing to any of these childrens lives. Not one thing at all. Then they fucking killed them. I want a breathalyzer or something to determine these horrible traits in people. This must never happen again in this community.

R461

As if those control freaks would have allowed Hannah to refuse to do anything, whether wearing those ridiculous costumes or a bridge that undoubtedly would have been costly to the parents.

those children were born not standing a chance in hell. For their sake I hope none of them are alive at this point. Do. you have any idea what the rest of their lives would be like? It would be no better or worse than what it was a few months ago and in ten years when they have done something horribly wrong to someone else because of their own personal trauma you would be screaming for their heads. They are all much better off dead.

R459, they announced today that the body that washed ashore was Ciera. Hannah and Davonte are still missing.

Thanks, r465. I still think it’s interesting/significant that the two still missing are the ones who ran afoul of the murderous cunts.

Rest in Peace beautiful Ciera Rose

One of my theories is that they beat the everloving crap out of Devonte and Ciera for bringing CPS into their business (“See what happens to tattle-tales?!”) Maybe even killed them? Teach the others a lesson, even though they were most likely frightened enough anyway. Jen told her guild people to take over, Sarah came screaming up the driveway and they evacuated soon after.

When it finally dawned on manic panic Jen that there was no way out, she killed whoever was left.

The truth is most of these local cps are religious nut jobs too, who often believe in physical and emotion abuse as punishment. The CPS does not work to help stressed out families or decrease and intervene in child abuse cases. We need a serious mandatory evaluation and REFORMS to the Child Protection Systems.

Also, CPS treat adopted and fostered children as sub human. It is actually that appalling.

Jesus H Christ-THEY NEVER WENT TO A FUCKING DENTIST!!!!

They probably never went to doctors,either. Why am I surprized.

They totally could have gotten medical and dental care from the state.

I wonder if they murdered Davonte and Hannah (the snitches) and dumped the bodies somewhere during their final trip?

R470, it wasn’t about the cost. They didn’t want doctors to see missing teeth, bruises, matted hair, protruding bones, stunted growth and single digit BMIs.

Not to mention, it’s a bother taking 6 kids to the doctor. I have three kids and can only schedule two per visit. That’s a lot of schlepping that would cut into gaming time.

You"re right, R470. I've been meaning to call my state senator and representative to see if someone is working on changing the laws on homeschooling. Homeschooled kids should have to see a doctor and a dentist twice a year and have a walk-through of their home by someone who can check on their education level.

That's a nice thought R473, but what about Christian Scientists and other sects which don't believe in using medicine or medical doctors?

The root of the problem in both home schooling and children not seeing a physician in a timely manner is the government's decision to allow Christian families to opt out of government schools so that prayer and any religious affirming teaching could be removed from school. IMHO it comes down to "we may lose a few every year, but that's easier than dealing with the ACLU and other people demanding the freedom from religion."

As a lifelong atheist, I am in favor of cutting out prayer and evolutionary denial from public school curriculum. However as with everything in life, you give up a bit whenever you gain a bit. It's a shame, but I don't see mandated doctor visits happening.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

R473 and all of us. Please sign and get your friends and family to sign this petition started by Alexandra the family friend who tried to get help for the Hart Kids.

More than a few of the festival goers seemed manipulative and phony. it's a shame that the Harts refused help from people that was directed at helping the kids like jackets, blankets, and food.

At first I thought the woman who met them at a festival and told Jen that she wanted to be in their lives was a bit clingy (dancer, healer, whatever) . She is a black woman who was adopted by a white woman. She felt like she had a kinship and offered help about de-matting the Hart girls' hair (but was refused).

But I read some of her FB and she is lovely. Very warm and genuine. She radiates through her photos. Her dancing on stage looked inviting not like Osho, lock-wearing blonde, Trust Fund Baby crap. Damn! If only the kids had a mom like her or the Hart moms allowed her to be a mentor to the kids.

I am still holding out hope that the strongest 2 who bravely told of the abuse are still alive. Maybe they jumped out of the SUV at some point. If all of the kids have perished, I hope that they are all buried together in Texas. Devonte was afraid that the 6 would be separated. I want them to be together. I want the woman who sang, "Jesus Loves Me(Them) to sing at the funeral - no Nakho!

This breaks my heart. RIP kiddos. I hope that the others are alive, but if not, I hope that they are found so that they can be buried.

Has any information come out about Jenn - history, family? There was a bit on FB about Sarah but it sounded pretty uneventful, think it was family of 4, she babysat, intact family, etc. Jenn is said to have been from a large Catholic family, dunno if that was true?

Who says that about Jennifer's family, people making up stuff on Websleuths?

Websleuths is impossible to read these days --- endless giant avatars and closing quotes that take up so much bandwidth and time to scroll. Who the hell has time for such nonsense? On the Nanny stabber forum, it seemed to be 2 women who had no insight or insider information chatting to each other.

I haven't checked to see if Reddit has any insider info on the Harts.

That she came from a large, Catholic family? I think it was a FB post by a former teacher or classmate. They both came from small towns. Why would someone make that up? Never been to Websleuths, there is plenty of discussion on social media.

R480

Reddit has almost nothing about the Harts last I checked.

R475

Her hair was properly maintained in that photo from 2016, which makes me think either Jenn got too lazy to do basic grooming or they’d had a professional do the girls’ hair which became dicier the more emaciated they got.

Why didn’t they give them food??

to punish and control them, R484

R482 thanks. It saves time. I guess all of the #ProtectTheCommunity crowd are on private FB accounts. R483 As I posted that, I realized Sierra's photo had her in barrettes not the scarves. I don't know what girl is seen from the back sitting on rocks w/ Jeremiah and she has matted hair.

There is an old adage that a crazy parent does more damage to their child of the same gender so the Hart girls may have had it worse than the boys.

Maybe DLers who grew up w/ alcoholic parents can tell us, could it be that alcoholism is the main factor in Jen's behavior and mistreatment of her kids?

The closed blinds, gaming, etc sounds more like it has to do w/ drinking to me. She probably gamed at night while drinking a few glasses of wine. Her obesity could have been from drinking.

The big Irish Catholic families that I knew growing up had the same structure --- dad (in this case Sarah) who worked to support the family and left parenting to the alcoholic mom (Jen). 3 kids to a bedroom. Older kids babysat and parented the younger ones. They had a lot of responsibility. Mom was drunk and out of it, except to embarrass the kids when friends came over, especially dates and prom dates. At least one kid was an addict of some sort and always one mentally ill kid out of the 9. The baby or next to the last kid was always infantilized because the mom didn't want to be without a baby.

Did anyone else see this pattern in their school friends who were Irish Catholic w/ large families?

The closed FB group is very "not all white people."

6 Kids, teens some with needs. Yeah if you starve them they will monitor behavior in order to eat. Esp they will keep each other in line If they are punished all for one. Food deprivation. Idiots.

R488, what’s wrong with saying “not all white people”? Or is it okay to make sweeping generalizations about an entire race of people?

The question of race has been discussed plenty in that group. It’s been pretty civil. I’ve seen a few flounces and the rare ban. The mods are tolerant. If KR was banned, it was for a good reason. Not because people don’t want to talk about the bad things these white women did.

Jen Hart's BFF is going to start speaking for the family

r491, she looks like an extra from In Living Color with that sweater

I do not understand the point of defending them in the media? Surely it is about #protect the community.

Why claim none could be independent adults? I have known of pretty disabled people who lived in shared housing and had workshop type jobs and made the happiest life that they could. I do not think the kids were more impaired than that.

Jenn seems to not be able to distinguish between HER wants and needs, the kids always living together, with her, as she had no other life, and their abilities or wishes. People taking her words at face value may be confused but the rest of us see through it. NO ATTEMPTS were being made to set the kids up for a life outside the family, it was like a cult. Did she want to live on their disability checks always?

Devonte, when asked about the homeschooling, said that they had books. I will be surprised if they were educated in any way. Quiverfull or tree hugger, sucks for the kids either way. Are these people so caught up in the trigger words of their identity life that they cannot see the basics of care that were withheld from the kids? I still do not believe in the cross burning or in threats in the mailbox. Jenn was paranoid or it was a crafted story. The photographer who took the photo of Devonte and the cop got only positive feedback. If strangers were contacting the family, why the mention of their names and quotes about Jenn in the article about the Goonies in 2015 or the grandstanding with Bernie in 2016. She was super off and it is a fucking shame that those kids will never get to grow up.

None of these friends saw them in person. You do not know people from texts, esp if they had literally been out of touch for a long time. Jenn had withdrawn even from the festival people, they were starting to object to public abuse or make reports, and from social media.

Devonte told the neighbors that they used to withhold food for a meal but now it was days, even for him, the favored kid. How much was $ a factor I wonder? That house was a stretch on one retail mgt income.

I still do not understand WHY OR did not get heights and weights on the kids to substantiate the report. That was the last, best chance to save them.

[quote]Are these people so caught up in the trigger words of their identity life that they cannot see the basics of care that were withheld from the kids?

What does happen to kids who’ve been badly homeschooled? I guess the fundie girls get married ASAP. Maybe the rest become Walmart greeters.

The purported friend said that she lost people who were part of her EVERYDAY LIFE in a FB post. In the article linked above, it was clear she had not seen them in person in a very long time, possibly since 2016, and that Jenn had not even replied to her texts in months.

What is the point of this PR campaign? What does #protect the community really mean?

To claim that the kids were educated, and that they had access to books, music and nature at any time would be appropriate for a preschooler, not teens.

Jenn claiming that the kids could never be independent was about HER needs and was a reality SHE was trying to create. Homeschooled kids need some basic protections, esp if so extraordinarily isolated.

They want to raise $ using the names of the kids? Any proof that the Hart kids raised money for human trafficking causes? Hmmm...given the concern over images, plus Jenn and her video and photography equipment, is that a Freudian slip?

The only people in their lives seemed to be concerned/reporting/cut off or to amplify her paranoid delusions. There house was constantly vandalized? Pics or it did not happen.

Their house...

The WA house looked pristine. It was remote enough that the sheriff did not feel like driving out. LE had no calls about them prior to the DeKalbs, so no reports of threats, vandalism, stalking. No cameras, etc, no security system, and continued famewhoring using their names in mainstream media in 2015 and 2016, not buying the BS of Jenn. Who will track where any $ raised goes? Is this just another bilk the hippies scheme? Sure seems that way.

You can see the friend with them and the kids at the Bernie rally

R495, it is my understanding that most homeschoolers use a curriculum, either provided by the school district or online. What the Harts seem to have done is more in line with something called unschooling, or more properly, Jenn was making it impossible for them to leave even as adults, so they could live off the disability checks of the kids always.

What Jenn did was putting lipstick on the pig of basically human slavery and calling it words that would resonate with the hippies.

Jenn seemed to have a plan that the kids would stay with her until death. If they were unable to function as adults, caaaa-ching! God forbid she prepare them for life, whatever their capabilities and get a job to pay her mortgage instead of scheming to live off the taxpayers (TX or fed) for LIFE!

It literally is human slavery to acquire humans to do all your domestic work, starve them to maintain control, and withhold education and access to the outside world except when it benefits Jenn.

What does #protect the community really mean?

Where does concern for human trafficking come in? I do not recall ever seeing Jenn mention that as a cause of the kids. It is crafty to hit on that emotional word, then turn reality on its head to bilk the gullible for money, rather than say, change laws so other kids might stand a chance to be protected. Trippy, huh?

Let me clarify w factual information re Jen & Sarah’s concept of raising children with “disabilities.” In fact children that are born To Mothers struggling with cocaine or rock abuse eventually outgrow their early development difficulties. If given attention to early developmental problems the teen years can further distance them from the myth of “Crack Babies.” Every single one of these kids can go on to lead completely normal. Fulfilling lives.

I hate these bitches.

Yes, r500!

I really wonder what her end game was.

I would THINK that if she wanted to keep receiving benefits for a “disabled” adult child, she’d have to produce the kid once in a while, medical assessments, etc. My sister is a Special Ed teacher and works with older teenagers. They focus a lot on job training and getting them as independent as possible. And there’s a lot of paperwork and constant assessment and reporting.

I can understand wanting to defend and support your friends. If my friend was accused of child abuse, I would probably have conflicting emotions myself. That being said, however, if my friend had multiple abuse charges like this with documented occurrences, then I wouldn’t be able to ignore those facts. I would obviously be shocked and probably also feel guilty for not having seen/missed the red flags. But in the end I would not be able to turn a blind eye like some of these people that “knew” this family. There is NO excuse for child abuse.

The DeKalbs are back with a new story. This time it was the husband who decided they had to report it.

The interview is broken up into multiple videos.

[quote] Devonte told the neighbors that they used to withhold food for a meal but now it was days, even for him, the favored kid

Link plz

I'm not the person who posted that, r506, but they said the same thing in one of the videos at r505.

Also, regarding homeschooling, they said that when they asked Devonte if they were being homeschooled he said, "we have books."

I am still just gob smacked that two lesbians used their kids to get close to male artists like a bunch of straight groupies. The more I see the pics and writings Jen does about it, the more stupified I am. Could Jen have been bi and playing both sides? Keeps Sarah off balance and devoted to trying to keep Jen? It is just weird they didn't congregate to any lesbians or lesbian artists like they did to these men. Sorry, just a puzzle to me and trying to make sense of all that male hugging. I would think lesbians would be more careful how their sons interact with other men in that way.

R508, If Jen was BPD (borderline), then her sexuality was secondary to her fear of abandonment. Her sexuality was whatever she needed it to be to hold on to a partner. Similar thing applies to her perception of the kids--if being unable to function as independent adults meant they'd never-ever leave her, then, by golly, they'd never be functional, independent adults.

R508, that’s what I keep saying! Aside from them being married, there was nothing to indicate that they were lesbians. Zero involvement in actual LGB causes, for all the new age festivals, they never bothered with MichFest, their musical idols were male.

It’s almost as if the “lesbian” label was a cloak of martyrdom.

R509’s explanation makes sense, though.

Maybe they thought these straight male musicians wouldn’t be have any interest in a couple of lesbians, when evidently there were a bunch of hippie groupies around to worship them, so they used the kids to get the attention of straight males.

Middle aged lesbians = meh. Cute, huggy kids = a free pass to lots of attention.

But why were they so interested in male attention to begin with? Clearly they are unqualified lesbians.

^ oops, were unqualified lesbians

Maybe they were both untreated bipolar or had NPD and needed attention from somewhere. Because they were living in a remote area and must not have had any friends around, they were looking for approval and kudos from somewhere. Strangers that lived far away would be the only ones that wouldn’t look suspiciously at these two. These dummies that thought they were such role models obviously weren’t noticing that the kids were starving to death.

Probably people going to a festival were high and not noticing how messed up the kids were. I think the real problem started when they knocked the teeth out of the one little girl. That couldn’t be hidden.

I'm sorry, but there are plenty of lesbians in the PNW. They could have found them with little effort, including artistic types. I think R509 is right about Jen and Sarah just fell for her and just followed along.

R186, or better just "Into the Fire".

I just talked to a lifelong resident of Alexandria, MN today. I asked if he'd ever heard of a cross burning in Alexandria at any time in his life (early 30s) He said absolutely not, that would never have gone unnoticed. It never happened.

There was a lot of anger at the time of the photo so I believe that they could have got a lot of a harassment about it , but maybe not from the cross burners.

Who knows - could have been from numerous directions.

I wonder if Jenn just made up these stories of burning crosses, threats in the mailbox years later, etc OR if SHE actually believed them?

Curious if anyone at Kohls could confirm that Sarah was even IN a car accident as was described as a cause of the family almost becoming homeless?

This new defender - is she Osho? OneDoor? Her name used to be Ava - when did she change it? What is her angle? Is she credible? Does she have good judgment re: the care of kids? She claims to be a co-owner of a daycare in OR that was shut down.

Jenn wanted attention from the football player, too. When he signed the ball of the foster teen, Jenn called her a brat and did not speak to her for DAYS.

Is it that they were guys or some fame association thing? I do not get any sense of chemistry between Jenn and Sarah whatsoever. Is it a kissing Jessica Stein kinda thing? It seemed like they really were super isolated by choice, and that Jenn seemed to be deteriorating mentally for a while, by her own admission and by increased terrorizing of the kids. That they starved them and were abusive in front of other adults, leaving bruises at festivals and visiting virtual strangers for TWO WEEKS with a family of 8, then acting so controlling the host called CPS is something that many abusers would hide in front of others, esp when they had been the target of so many investigations. Even after the conviction in MN it did not seem to alter their behavior even in front of others, which ime is unusual. I have known plenty of abusive adults but it is more common to be of the --wait till we get home! -- variety.

Just incredibly sad. Still wondering what #protect the community means. Part seems to be using the Hart name for, cough, fundraising, cough.

After hearing what Jen said to her friend about the kids never marrying or having kids of their own, I wondered whether Jen had Munchausen by Proxy. It might help explain why she was starving the kids so they would remain small and sickly. Jen's stories about vandalism and racist abuse from Devonte's photo sounds like those women who say they have a stalker and have threatening emails but they, in fact, are the ones sending the emails to themselves.

The deKalbs said that only Devonte went outside to do chores. So, I don't think the kids had "access to nature at every moment" like friend claimed.

Ah, that is interesting, R521.

Small and sickly meant steady narcissistic supply for Jenn AND an income stream, first from TX, then disability payments possibly for Markis and the kids as they got older. I think that there would be a certification process though and there the no schooling re-branded as homeschooling would be exposed?

I think Jenn and Sarah were both seriously unbalanced.

It's been mentioned a few times that Jen became really depressed after the photo of Devonte hugging the cop blew up, can anyone here explain why? Why didn't she relish in the attention? Try and parlay it into her reality show dream or whatever? Did she think it would cause people to look to closely at them? When you're as brazen as these two were --grabbing them so hard they leave a bruise, with holding food, humiliating them in public--wouldn't she think she could control the narrative?

I wonder how solid their relationship was, like many others have mentioned, they seem more like sisters than wives in the photos.

Jen could have gotten depressed after Devonte shot to fame w/ the cop-hugging photo because she wanted to be the famous one.

Was the photo before or after the CPS investigation in OR?

Jenn is in the background of the photo and looks smug as can be. The photographer described Devonte as seeming afraid of his guardian and her making him cry before he even approached the photographer.

That is an interesting point, R524.

Re the Devonte photo and getting depressed over it - She probably thought it was a "good" photo about peace and love, etc but the big reaction was negative because it was a peak time of anti-cop sentiment and a peak time of racial division. She misread what people were thinking at that march and online.

*Too closely at them

Sorry about the grammar, typing on my phone excuse.

Devonte and the other kids could have been flooded with offers that would have taken them away to bigger, better futures --- having lives of their own that were not dependent on Jen and Sarah. The danger was that the kids would be able to see greener pastures. Devonte was 3 years away from being 18.

Jenn isn't in the background of the famous photo but she is in another photo in the series (wearing something different).

Jen and Sarah probably had a host of personality disorder and psych problems.

Jen - Borderline, bi-polar, alcoholic, over-eater, liar, sadist, narcissist, Munchausen by Proxy, and using kids for money.

Sarah - enabler, bully and physical abuser

That is Jenn in the background, holding the sign, according to the photographer. He described her as the guardian. She is holding a cup of coffee.

No that isn't her with the sign. (It doesn't even look like her). She is in another photo wearing something else. I will see if I can find it.

In the article from 2015 about The Goonies, there are mentions of the family with a bit of a focus on Jenn, her 6 months making the costumes, etc. Re: the photo with the cop, I think the photographer kinda had her number and did not care for her, so maybe the focus did not become her as she expected? Did SHE want to be the one to take the photo? She was wearing a very nice camera herself. Anyone know if it was before or after the OR investigation? Did she think that thwarted her plans somehow? I was struck that she frequently traveled to festivals alone with the kids, and lived with them alone for what, a year or close to it? She did not seem to have a support network of help at all. Maybe they raised each other while she gamed?

[quote]Her name used to be Ava - when did she change it?

Nusheen/Nosheen is a very common Persian name. Maybe it’s her middle name?

here he is with her, not that other person

.........

R533 Yes, of course! Jen's first wish would be to be the hugger that went viral. Second choice , be the photographer who took the viral photo and got his name blasted around the world.

Thanks, R535, those are her thighs for sure and that is their dog.

Appreciate the clarification.

[quote]Any proof that the Hart kids raised money for human trafficking causes?

She said raise money 'to stop fracking.'

This new friend is a yuge airhead. She's applying to open a day-care center. Who would want their kids in the care of a Jenn apologist?

I never really --got-- the photo. I thought it kind of trivialized the point of the protests and what BLM was trying to do, dismissing police shootings as something that could just be hugged out?

I find it really odd that the kids were provided with music from a decade before even Sarah and Jenn were born. Who did she think those videos of Devonte dancing would appeal to?

It still feels like there is a piece missing. Were they really all going to be living in that house together in a decade? Trotting them out as a little feel good minstrel show of magic Negros when they were clearly stunted and starving 20 somethings? Did she think that they would never grow up?

I also wonder if Sarah actually lost her job or if that was a pretext for moving away after her probation ended? Sarah was gone a lot, really wonder if she was getting some on the side from someone? She has bruises on her legs in some photos, wonder if the kids kicked her?

I imagine that both had to come from pretty abusive backgrounds to take the risk of leaving bruises while an adoption was PENDING. I cannot fathom the degree of entitlement to literally enslave - beat, starve, work and make $ off of - little black children, then cloak yourself in the mantle of martyr and white savior. I have seen the pattern with adopted and foster kids being treated badly though, firsthand. Breaks my heart.

A short vid of Devonte...he does not seem so impaired that he could never leave home?

If someone else can upload so it is not a FB link, have at it. I pulled it off the FB group page. Thanks.

I’m really curious why Markis didn’t move out. Was he that tremendously disabled? Or did the Harts just that successfully isolate him, uneducate him, and bully him to the point that he felt he couldn’t leave? Ultimately it was Devonte taking care of them all, but Markis, as the legal adult, could have actually done something.

I guess just add that to the list of mysteries we'll never get answers to about this case.

I have a family member who is pretty disabled and who moved out, lives in a group home and has a workshop job, friends, etc. These kids were not only isolated from support services, there is no indication that they got ANY education whatsoever.

It seems that there was never an intention for the kids to leave, perhaps to keep the $$$ coming in? Their lives never really changed from those of preschool aged kids. They were also meant to supply narcissistic supply to Jenn and Sarah, I guess. The photos with Sarah all look so fake, like the kids are miming affection and she is a statue accepting it.

I would really like to know how they got the mortgage for that house in WA. After the last recession, banks tightened up their lending and getting a mortgage for that house on that tiny income seems impossible on paper.

The interview with the neighbors was heartbreaking, the husbands demeanor less demonstrative than the female is what left the impression he was kind of aloof. So he called CPS. Still though, why a week?? I will never understand that.

I find the remarks questioning the couple’s status ludicrous and homophobic - “they didnt behave like lesbians” - what do you expect? Should they have been groping each other in public?

Autopsies will tell us how long this abuse had been going on. These women have made their marks in history - sociopathic killers, nothing else.

They got a few thousand a month for the kids from the state of TX and possibly Markis got disability payments too? Thus the need to keep them all on site? Does that change the numbers, R545? It was speculated that Sarah likely made in the mid 50s. They did sell the house in MN and then rented in OR.

They seemed to cause rather than remediate issues in the kids. Long term starvation that would stunt growth so dramatically surely would have cognitive effects, no?

I think the neighbors are pretty traumatized, as is the father of Mrs. DeKalb who called 911 months ago about Hannah. The sheriff declined to go out and do a welfare check. His 911 call is hard to listen to.

R546, do you think a CPS visit a week earlier would have had a different outcome? I imagine this was the go to plan for Jenn for years.

I imagine that the prior call getting no response from authorities and fear of making things worse might have made them hesitate. When people are willing to kill their kids, the system is not really set up to prevent that. Even beating first graders black and blue while an adoption of 3 more helpless little kids was in the works did not cause any big response by the system.

When OR received the report of food being withheld, they did not get weights and heights on the kids. I believe that CPS could have gotten an order requiring them to produce the kids for that purpose. That said, would they have just killed them at that time then? I find that less hard to believe than the neighbor fearing this outcome. He said he was not surprised by it. He read Jenn correctly, thought on some level she was capable of something like this, and knew the authorities had not acted once before. Did they ask Devonte about prior CPS involvement? I read they asked him about other things.

The timing of the call could have changed things if a child had starved to death during that week period, but otherwise it would have just hastened the end. This, it just feels so Jenn that I cannot imagine her allowing any other end to the story. Dramatic, her as the ultimate victim and savior, etc. Bet the Nacho driving into the ocean to be free song was playing as she upped her liquid courage. Evil monster.

But if those SS benefits end when they turn 18, that fact figures into the equation. They must've had some decent equity from the sale of the previous house. Just looking at their ~$75,000 yearly (guessing), it's cutting it very close. And from the pictures, the house seemed to be nicely furnished. For that matter, I wonder what their CC debt was. I know I'm pretty nosy. On the face of it, it doesn't seem like they could swing all this. Maybe they were up to their eyeballs in debt.

Adults can get federal disability income, R550. Agree that $ is one big missing piece. They could NOT afford to lose custody of the kids and that income. The cars were pretty old too.

Shocked that a Patreon account has not popped up, she seems the type.

All those costumes for the kids must have taken time to find and must have added up - wonder if she deducted them as part of her photography business?

Public school provides free childcare and services but the price is you cannot beat your kids black and blue or starve them. Jenn could have gotten a job if they were in school, but she had no degree, which would limit her earning potential. It seems like she envisioned it as kind of a mini cult where they would all live together just as they did when the kids were in preschool. Unrealistic and even in WA they could not escape CPS.

The photographer described the photo as staged --- what was Jenn hoping the outcome would be? A reality show, a new age Partrige Family, with hugs? How was it to be monetized?

Jenn was always going to have limited earning without a degree and with her mental issues. Being a SAHM to kids with income streams attached seems to have been her career choice. The physical abuse started when the kids were tiny, when there were just 3 of them. The investigations drove the isolation. The newest community member defending them said something like Jenn might have felt she had no other option which is disturbing. There were lots of options, but Jenn and Sarah would likely have served time, like the Terpins.

Nusheen appears to sell weed and run a daycare.. she also hadn't seen the harts in two years. She said the bodies have been cremated Nusheen Ava Bakhtiar They have cremated everyone who has been found and sent them back to South Dakota. Jen's aunt and I are working to get the ashes back to OR. I have been tasked with hosting the memorial. She feels the kids were not starved nor abused.

The bio family wanted the kids sent to them and to have a funeral *smh* The Hart family chose this lunatic Nusheen to be the spokesperson for the family? yeah right. She said Jen trusted her so much.. I guess she was Jen's dealer

Wow, I wonder if there will be a fight over custody of the remains. We haven't heard from the other bio (Markis and siblings) family, right?

Jenn and Sarah were okay with the public schools educating the kids until 'the system' interfered. Those poor kids never made it out of elementary school before the unregistered homeschooling started. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and say J&S had the intention of moving to Oregon and doing proper homeschooling. Registering with the state and all that. What prevented that from happening? Laziness, realizing that she was over her head? So weird to me. Most SAHM look forward to having a break with the kids in school for several hours a day. And six of them gone would be heaven, you'd think.

I hope the kids are buried away from J&S. It's annoying that the delusional friend and Jenn's delusional family have control over the funerals and burial decisions. Not right.

I think the cop/Devonte photo was a pivotal point for Jen's narcissism. She didn't take the famous photo and it damaged her ego so much she made up lies about the cross burning, etc. If she had taken the photo and received credit, i think things would have been a LOT different. I doubt there would have been a made-up cross burning. She'd probably be on the Today show with Devonte, getting her 15 minutes.

R555, but they were already off the grid in terms of keeping the kids isolated. No homeschooling, no doctor/dentist visits. Maybe the famous phot was too much intrusion and she made up the harassment to keep out of the public eye and the move to WA was another move into isolation. In WA any social network contact (with the exception of her gaming guild) was eliminated. Further and further away from everybody.

[quote]I find the remarks questioning the couple’s status ludicrous and homophobic - “they didnt behave like lesbians” - what do you expect?

I expect them not to act like teenage girls desperate for attention from Nacho.

As much as you want to go on about the music festival people, they hadn't been a factor in the Hart tribe for years. They hadn't gone to a festival or been in contact with any of them for several years. That scene was two chapters ago. Has no relevance to the current day Harts, imo.

There are no Harts left, just remains.

R554

I'll repeat my wish that the kids are buried properly and Jenn and Sarah get dumped in a potter's grave, but it looks like my wish will be denied.

This is almost as bad as the gravestone for Hana (the Ethiopian child starved and frozen to death by her fundie adopted "parents") saying her age at death was 16 instead of 13. Had the courts accepted that fake age for her, her adopted "parents" would have been sentenced for much less time in prison. The scumbag extended family of those monsters set that fiction in stone, spitting in the face of the Ethiopian community in the area who wanted to have a gravestone made for her.

R556, that's a great point.

Jen hacksawing off the nipples of mannequins at work is bizarre. She was likely sexually abused by a man.

R543, it may be that Markis didn't want to leave the younger children at the mercy of the abusive parents.

It's also true that trauma and abuse have strange and profound effects upon people that are often hard to understand unless one has experienced them oneself. Markis may have felt unable to leave in the same way an abused spouse feels powerless to leave her abuser. It is well known that people who are being abused may even defend their abuser and claim to love him/her as illogical as this appears to outsiders (see Stockholm syndrome).

Abusive relationships can result in a phenomenon called traumatic bonding. Trauma bonds bind victim and abuser together emotionally and psychologically. They are extremely powerful and can persist for years, often even after the abuser is dead. If the Hart children had ever managed to escape their immediate plight and survived into adulthood they would likely need a great deal of therapeutic intervention to help them cope with what these women did not only to their bodies but to their psyches.

He also would not have the money to just up and move and pay for an apartment, and wouldn't know anyone.

R521, it really does seem that muderous murderess Jen had some sort of Munchhausen’s Syndrome. The attention coming from musicians and festival people, not doctors. Same need to be validated as a “good mother” and martyr.

DeeDee Blancharde did the same shit to Gypsy. Keeping her small and toothless. Paraded her around, spent plenty of time with ADULTS, called her too “disabled”, and the whole time the kid was perfectly fine and just dying for a normal life. She was also polite and well-behaved. I could go on. Suffice to say, Jen was a monster.

r519, I think that Nusheen woman is one of those histrionic types that come out of the woodwork when there’s a tragedy. You know, the type who attends the funeral and has a big dramatic meltdown, weeping loudly and trying to climb into the casket with the deceased. Meanwhile the family has no idea who she is. And it turns out that she’s the wife of someone the deceased used to work with, two jobs ago.

Some people just have to insert themselves into a tragedy, no matter how tenuous the connection.

If they could not get attention from Nacho, they were all over Max Ribner. He, has, wisely, quieted down.

Agree, R566, except for the telling fact where she wants to --fundraise-- in the name of Devonte on his bday. What, the closed for violation daycare loss of income crimping her lifestyle? She had a fbook post in 2014 saying she missed t hem, yet claims that they were part of her daily life?

I just do not see how Jenn and Sarah thought this would end except as kind of a family cult, lilke the Terpins. At least that Quiverful family on reality tv is kinda, up and out, re the kids. Finances had to be tight. What was the plan, or increasingly, did they not have one?

Even for Jenn, this is really strange. Allegedly they would sleep in the car.

The kids seemed to exist to serve as companions to Jenn, like pets. She once posted about Jeremiah, all about HER, that he laughed at HER jokes, etc.

Sarah always looks fake with the kids to me, her smiles do not look genuine or seem to reach her eyes. So she was living separate a lot of the time. Wonder if she had someone else?

[quote]I just do not see how Jenn and Sarah thought this would end ..... What was the plan, or increasingly, did they not have one?

I don't think they had a plan, ever.

If Jenn and the kids were gone for long stretches of time, or if Sarah lived in another state for a year or so, it seems that if Sarah wanted to, she could have left the relationship or have gotten the kids help. She was not immersed in the control of Jenn daily nor was SHE the one isolated with no job.

Still wondering where the idea to foster right out off college came from. Jenn seemed to see her job as living off the $ from TX and perhaps disability payments. There was no sense of the kids with a right to their own potential, safety in their bodies, food. So driving them off the cliff was sort of a continuation? I think the kids still could have had a chance if they had been removed. They were able to attach to one another, which some abused kids have never experienced. They were still trying to live, to get help. Jenn probably experienced that as what felt like a survival threat to HER. If the kids were taken and that income lost, she had no career, no network, nothing to show for being 40 at all. It all seems so delusional, and they started acquiring these kids when in their 20s, so early.

The Hart family has made no statements whatsoever I do not think? There had to be signs of how profoundly off she was?

How could Jenn afford to take six kids on endless road trips? The cost of gas (for an SUV especially) would seem to be prohibitive. And did they spend the night at a campground? sleep in a WalMart parking lot? It just keeps getting weirder and more inexplicable.

R570, I was imagining what it was like for the kids, under the thumb of Jen. I wonder if they whispered their plans to escape, how scary Jen was, who they could trust if they DID get away.

When I was a kid (and even now!) my sister and I took comfort in each other, against our mother.

R568, well, that’s a rather face-saving way of putting it. Seems Jen had one foot out the door!

I’ve read that Jen was the one who wanted kids, but Sarah sort of indulged it.

And I really have to wonder why Sarah didn’t just LEAVE - she had so many chances. It’s not as if she were fat and ugly. I’m sure she could have (and probably did) many other partners and futures.

She was isolated, too. Why speculate that she had other partners? There is zero proof of that. She had been with her a long time. Moving with her over the years. The problem is they did not really know other people

A lot of couples get that way.

Sarah obviously did love her “family” just not the kids enough to see that they were fed and nurtured. However she did love her GF who let her come and go as bread winner. Sarah came running when the Feds came knocking. That is all you need to know about her. GUILTY.

R574, I disagree that Sarah was isolated. She had a job. She traveled independently of the Tribe. She had at least one friend in Cheryl Hart. She traveled to a wedding without the Tribe. She went ahead of them to look for a house and job in OR.

R575, no doubt. I don’t think Sarah was a victim at all. Co-dependent for sure.

Thank you R576 - frm 575.

You can have a job and still be isolated

I don't think either of them talked to many people. There is a text up thread that attests to this.

Those so called Mothers were bananas. I cannot believe they still have people defending them. I do find it very telling, that no family or friends who have know either of them from beyond festival going has come forward. No one from, HS no cousins, siblings, parents -nada. Super strange.

There was a hs friend of Jenn who spoke out early, they had not seen each other much in person in decades. Think her name was Jammie or something like that? She was from MN, I think, and seemed to be echoing the statements of the culty festival crowd.

Ava was such a close chum she does not know that their name is Hart. But she will fundraise in their murdered kids name...

weren't some of the culty newagey people spelling it that way as well (on purpose)?

Maybe, 582? I had not noticed, good catch.

Weed Daycare Girl claims the bodies were cremated already? Shouldn’t they do autopsies first?

I feel like hardly anyone is talking about this story. It’s definitely not getting the attention it should.

R560Agreed.

Now we know how the families of the Jonestown Tragedy feel about the fact that Jim Jones is buried along with all the survivors under the memorial to those lost at Jonestown. There is one black female pastor who lost s mother and an aunt there, and she has been fighting to have Jones and his name removed from the memorial for years without any success.

When you have a child your job is to prepare them to be able some day to take care of themself and live in the world. Jen saying that these kids would not be able to live on their own is her sick way of not letting them leave. I wonder if even before CPS showed up if she felt the clock ticking and knew some day those kids would leave home and spill the beans on how they were treated.

With no education or social connections, she thought she had them trapped.

This reminded me of the Harts a bit - wonder if Jenn or Sarah had health issues for real of if that was more of Jenn and her delusions or manipulations? How common ARE people like this?

Jen's background.

The daycare pot grower did not know them in school so why is she commenting on that?

Her stealing random stuff suggests mental instability and impulse control. She externalized all that inner chaos into controlling 6 other humans.

I think Sarah is an enigma - had she left Jenn when she moved to OR? Or was it about her probation ending (for battering a first grader) and Jenn being delayed trying to sell the house in MN?

Thanks for posting, R598.

After the photo of Devonte and the police officer went viral, she said reporters staked out the family home for weeks. Their mailbox filled with positive messages from people worldwide, she wrote on Facebook. “Kim Kardashian = #breaktheinternet. Devonte Hart = #healtheinternet,” she wrote.

Her positivity dimmed in 2016, after the Pulse nightclub shootings in Orlando and the election of Donald Trump, events discussed frequently online. She wrote often that year about Black Lives Matter and said a man had called Devonte a racial slur in downtown Portland.

“I’ve been struggling with the colorblindness I’m surrounded by in my circle(s) of friends. My children are black.”

“There are so few people in my life that I feel really GET it,” she said. “Love and light seem to be the only things in the tool box. That’s not being an ally for black lives.”

---------- Neither is starving black kids, beating black kids or holding their head underwater for having a penny in their pocket. Nor is using them to meet your needs because you have been off since early adulthood and cannot function as a normal adult.

An ally does not withhold FOOD, EDUCATION, MEDICAL CARE or ISOLATE, nor does an ally MURDER while cloaking herself in the mantle of white savior.

Jenn Hart was off, paranoid, delusional, unable to function in a normal adult way.

It is disconcerting to see that Hannah had grown normally until the adoption, and does not seem to have gotten much bigger since. Starvation, a medical issue? She was taller than the other girls, initially. CPS thought that they were putting them in a better home but Jenn was batshit and both were abusive.

Sounds like the kids were doing fine in school before they were pulled to hide ongoing abuse. The idea that they could never leave was part of Jenns disordered thinking. Such an incredible shame.

Yes, they look like sweet kids.

From FB, another odd story: it really sounds like she had undiagnosed mental illness, many are known to manifest in early 20s.

-------------- Jen has told a story of being raped in college to her friends that makes very little sense because her story is that she was out jogging at night Lee and was accosted and raped by a stranger. As a rape crisis counselor, I can tell you that that scenario is very very rare and it’s the type of scenario that the police take very seriously so if it had been reported, we would know about it. And the thing is that it just doesn’t make sense that she wouldn’t report something like that I know that most people would report a stranger rape 1000 times more than people do acquaintance rape which makes up for the majority of reps. It sounds like she was a huge liar or delusional or both. But when you look back in hindsight most of her stories were very unbelievable. I am under the impression that Jen did not have much life experience and that she made up a lot of stuff from the perspective of someone who doesn’t have much understanding of how the world works. She seems like someone who was very sheltered all her life.

Petty theft charge likely put the kibosh on Jenn working in retail, no? Was she qualified for much else? She never got a degree.

Next thread, when this fills up...

No mention of the Hart family taking in foster kids. Unusual to do that in early 20s, esp as a lesbian couple at that time. Thought maybe there was a family history. The principal of the hs Sarah attended has made some comments, no mention of it in that family either.

They do not seem to have been part of any gay organizations to have been part of any lesbian communities, no gay parenting groups, or interracial adoption parenting groups. Just the cult of Jenn and sporadic contact with the hippy types.

When did the taking a hacksaw to the nipples of the mannequins supposedly happen? Sure sounds like another of Jenns tall tales if it did not lead to destruction of property charges or loss of a job. How could she keep working in retail after the theft charge? Maybe background checks were not as common then?

[quote]The principal of the hs Sarah attended has made some comment

link?

This photo was from 2009. In 2008, before the adoption of the final 3 was finalized, Hannah, the tallest girl, had gone to school with a bruise on her arm from being hit with a belt. Look how tiny this child is, imagine a year younger, and leaving bruises with an adoption pending. The following year, in 2010, Sarah would be prosecuted for child abuse for punching Abby, the little one to the far right, black and blue before sending her to school. Abby reported that it was Jenn who beat her with fists and held her head under water. These were TINY, young kids. Sickening.

It was a teacher, not the principal who spoke a bit about Sarah.