American Crime Story: Versace Thread 6

I thought the ending conveyed the sadness of it all very well. The opening Ultravox song was jarring though since it’s from the early 80’s.

[quote]This final episode feels almost like a curtain call for a lot of the actors, like Jon Jon Briones and Max Greenfield. Was that a conscious choice to have them back and, in some ways, take a bow?Well, I think the point was to bring back as many of the players as you could. But they were all very active in those final days of Cunanan. Like, they really did think Cunanan might be coming for Marilyn Miglin. So it all dovetailed nicely. By the nature of the cross- country manhunt idea, the narrative was so spread out, so it was nice to finally have an episode where all of these great people could come back together. That was always part of the plan of the structure. Ryan Murphy

[quote]Max Greenfield’s scene in the interrogation room at the police station feels like the thesis for Versace, in that homophobia was so much of the reason the police didn’t pursue Cunanan. Yes, and also Marilyn Miglin [played by Judith Light] has a big monologue about family. So yes, but I think the reason I was interested in doing it initially and was drawn to it initially was because one of the crimes was apathy. Here was this manhunt, and it’s true that in Miami a lot of the police officers would not go into gay bars to put up the most-wanted posters because they thought people would think they were gay. So by pure apathy and being dismissed as, “Well, he’s taking out gay people, who cares!” that’s one of the reasons he ultimately had such a high body count — because people just didn’t care, particularly law enforcement.

[quote]Darren really leaves everything on the table for this role, even shaving his head. You were his biggest champion for this — how do you feel about his performance? I am proud of him and I always knew he could do it and I think he proved he could do it. I was very adamant about his casting. I thought there was a great dramatic actor inside there waiting to come out. He took his responsibilities very seriously, and that’s the best thing I can ever do having the gig I have, is believing in people and giving the opportunities for them to shine. I do think it’s the best performance of the year, and I think it’s the hardest. It’s a nine-hour descent into madness.

[quote]So when will ACS: Katrina start? Soon? I don’t quite know. We’re working on a couple of things. That’s a show where we have a lot of things cooking. We literally just edited the finale last week, so we haven’t made that decision yet. We’re never going to have a Crime Story unless we have the scripts down. I think the reason why Versace went next is because Tom Rob Smith had such a strong take on it. I am not in a rush to move forward with anything unless it’s perfect. So we’ll see what’s next for that.

[quote]What about Feud 2? Are you any closer with that? Still talking about it. We’re still deciding it. I have the new Netflix deal and I have all my shows with Fox, I don’t want to do something unless the scripts are ready and the casts are ready. I’m taking my time and just trying to get everything right.

I haven’t talked to you since the Netflix deal. How do you feel about this? I’m really excited. I’m really excited to do something else. I’m excited to explore new worlds and do all different types of programming and make documentaries. I’m also really excited about the shows I have with Fox, two of those are my Netflix shows, Ratched and The Politician. At least for the near foreseeable future, nothing has changed. It’s business as usual and I’m still there, and we’re all still close and cool. I feel good about everything.

[quote]The opening Ultravox song was jarring though since it’s from the early 80’s.

Most of the music on this show has been from the 80s, not the 90s.

[quote]Most of the music on this show has been from the 80s, not the 90s.

Why be accurate when I can just play the music from my own childhood? It's really about me.

While there is no indication that Andrew actually called his Dad, he did call someone

[quote]Andrew Cunanan called an acquaintance in an attempt to get a passport to flee the country, an FBI official said Thursday. At a news conference in Washington, FBI Deputy Director William Esposito declined to identify the recipient of Cunanan's phone call or even say where the person lived. But he said Cunanan's acquaintance did not contact the FBI after the call, despite the massive public search then under way for the fugitive. The FBI found out about the phone call during systematic questioning of known Cunanan associates that was part of the investigation, Esposito said. Esposito said the acquaintance "declined comment" when asked by the FBI why no attempt was made to contact authorities with the information. The acquaintance described Cunanan as "agitated and nervous" and said he didn't make any admissions about the Versace killing, Esposito added.

[quote]Did Antonio really attempt suicide? It is sad how he was treated.

Like Jeff Trail's suicide attempt, the show added that in for more dramatic stakes.

Thanks for starting a new thread.

I thought the last episode was good. Obviously North must have become friends with Mrs. Miglin. She was very gentle with her and her husband. Was Lee really a great guy?

To back up for a second

[quote]You’re projecting your own twisted fantasy onto this show. The show has nothing to do with incest. It’s all in your head.

Hmm, let's see what a quick google says.

BuddyTV

[quote]it's heavily implied that Pete is sexually molesting his young son

Vulture

[quote]Then, far more bluntly, Modesto looms over Andrew in bed, encouraging him to channel the same silence he bravely mustered after burning his foot on a heater (a story relayed to Orth by Modesto) years back. And then the lights go out. Yikes. We have uncovered nothing to support the implication that Andrew was sexually abused by his father

TVGuide

[quote] Did Andrew's father molest him as implied with Modesto turns out the light when Andrew is in bed

The Week

[quote] the suggestion that Cunanan was molested by his father, Modesto

Reading through old news clippings that say he was coming off meth while hiding in the houseboat. It feels like the whole drug use issue was ignored in the show. Maybe the drug use pushed him over the edge?

So did Versace and Andrew actually meet? They never really clarified if the scenes with them were just in Andrew's imagination or did I miss something.

Yeah Maureen spends a lot of time talking about Andrew's drug use r10, he was deep into drugs, sold them as well. The drug use definitely helped push him into crazytown.

The show has him using drugs, but I would agree underplays that angle. From what I remember one of his big fights with Jeff is when he tried to get Jeff to help move product.

I don't believe Andrew ever actually spent time with Versace...except in his imagination.

We've gone through this before, but there are several witnesses that attest to them talking to each other at the club in San Francisco. They tell the same gist, it seemed Versace was flirting with Andrew. I would consider this encounter certain.

Outside of that we really don't know. Maureen has one witness who says they saw Andrew driving in a limo with Versace later that weekend. But hard to know what to believe.

Like many things involved in this case, we don't know the truth.

I'm glad they showed Donatella for the bitch she is. If she really loved her brother she would have at least treated the man he loved with a little more respect. Her complete disregard for his pain tells you everything you need to know about her. She got the face she deserved.

Antonio D'amico has nothing nice to say about Donatella. Calls her a talentless diva whose brain was fried by drug abuse.

I know this is completely random and beside the point now, but why did they keep harping on David Madson's intercom/buzzer being broken, portraying it as being really suspicious and crucial to Cunanan's set up at the apartment? I assumed they were going to show Cunanan breaking it or something, but nothing ever came of that. Were we just supposed to assume Andrew broke it?

Got the face she deserved? For sure. What a cunt.

Good episode. I'm sad to see the series end. It was really engrossing despite the few inaccuracies--I realize it's not a documentary.

Yes, the whole drug taking/selling and escort past was generally ignored. It's still unbelievable that all this happened.

When 1997 flashed up on the screen, I remembered exactly where I was when the manhunt was happening. For some reason, when news reports say he died in a house boat, I imagined it being a small boat, not really a boat that has a house on it.

Which one of your wrote this article?

[quote]Darren Criss' Magnificent Ass in The Assassination of Versace Deserves Its Own Emmy

Darren's response

I missed the part with his Sugar Daddy...Norman? Because I always Andrew murdered him. I also think Andrew murdered a doctor in a Miami suburb.

[quote]Which one of your wrote this article?

Offended that you have to ask.

I spy the patented Criss humble-brag about "resonating with certain arbiters of taste and accolades".

It's a rather caftany turn of phrase.

Yeah, it is such an unnecessarily pretentious thing to say r24. I had the same thought.

Darren and Andrew really did have a few traits in common.

Do we think Criss will always be AC for the rest of his career? Because that’s all I see now.

No, he'll be Blaine.

What I found interesting is in the Vanity Fair podcast Darren Criss talked about one of the things that ate at him was how "gay" to play Andrew, since of course he is a straight(!!!) actor playing a gay man.

Seems weird for someone who has spent most of their acting career playing gay men.

[quote] one of the things that ate at him was how "gay" to play Andrew, since of course he is a straight(!!!) actor playing a gay man.

More award baiting. The craft of the actOR is hard, y'all!

All it takes is a bit of good old research since people who knew him are alive and things have been written and documentaries made. What a pretentious thing to say about a role based on a real person.

I thought Criss was good but didn't do Emmy-level work. I didn't see much of an evolution

[quote]What a pretentious thing to say about a role based on a real person.

There is no video/audio of Andrew though r29. There is nothing to copy.

[quote]I thought Criss was good but didn't do Emmy-level work. I didn't see much of an evolution

I thought it was a fairly one note performance for most of the season, with the highlights being episodes 7 and 8 for him. I'm sure 7 will be his emmy submission.

I support him getting nominated, but I don't think he should win.

I suppose if anybody wins for this series it will probably be a supporting actress trophy for Penelope Cruz.

People who knew him still live, R31. But it's also up to the director/writer/producers if that was such a great dilemma.

R33 Why do you choose to be offended by everything? He's one of the few actors who is really respectful and actually knows his place in this situation. Maybe listen to the interview?

Towards the beginning of this ep what did he throw in the water before he screamed? Also, how did he get a French passport?

This article really resonates with me. He bravely calls out his fellow critics for the underlying homophobia in their reviews.

Ryan Murphy has been good at supporting gay talent. Just saw this interview where Cody Fern said he was being forced into taking a break from acting before he got Versace.

[quote]ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: How did you get this Versace role? CODY FERN: I was actually in London at the time because I was working on a feature film that I was writing and directing. So I was in London because I went to work on the script with my writing partner. I was in a little bit of a rut in terms of where I was as an actor. I was always up for big roles, and it was always between me and one other. I was really selective about the work I wanted to do. I was frustrated because I wasn’t getting the gig. It always came down to star name, this that and the other. So I actually decided I was going to take a year off from acting and just focus on writing and directing. I had jokingly said the only thing that was going to put this production on hold would be if Ryan Murphy, HBO, or David Fincher called. So it’s funny now.

Re playing real people, there's a series right now on USA about the murders of Tupac and Biggie , called Unsolved.

The guy playing Tupac is a dead ringer and quite good. In fact everybody is good. The best surprise is Jimmi Simpson as one of the detectives, he's terrific.

Also, Darren Criss will be nominated and really should win. Gold Derby prediction center has him predicted to win by 525 users, while the next closest is Al Pacino at 115. Though there's a while to go, it's nowhere close right now. If Al wins for playing Joe Paterno, I have no faith in the system.

[quote]Why do you choose to be offended by everything?

MARY!

Judith Light deserves a nom for her spot on Marilyn. Mannerisms, expressions, little nervous head movements...Judith nailed M' s voice and body language. Anyone who has ever observed Marilyn can attest to Judith's excellent turn.

I liked this series, but Feud was better. I do think it deserves several nods.

Narrative definitely starting to form among the show's critical supporters.

I think that author makes a lot of good points r36, though his writing style is excessively fussy.

It is true that a lot of people regarded this story as too "niche" and "slight", exactly because it dealt with the lives of gay men. Conversations about race in America can be considered mainstream, conversations about being gay in America apparently cannot be.

R39, the Pacino thing hasn't even aired.

Why was one of his last acts shaving his head? Did he really eat dog food? That was unexpected.

R44 Well, yes I know that. I believe it airs in April. The trailer just looks average to me, I'm really not interested in the Paterno story. It either goes the way of them picking the "name" to win (which is Pacino)...or it goes the way of a young, kinda unknown actor sweeping in for the win (Darren). This scenario has me thinking of last year when Robert Deniro was predicted to win (not for performance but because of the big name), and Riz Ahmed (young, unknown) rightfully came in and stole it, unexpectedly.

Andrew Cunanan had shaved his head before he died. Maybe he was trying to change how he looked since there was the large manhunt? Who knows.

No evidence he ate dog food though, as Vulture points out that was not on the list of things the FBI found in the houseboat.

R35 He threw the keys to the Mercedes he had stolen in the water.

Do you suppose it was product placement with the Pedigree Dog Food? I’m always suspicious when I see a name brand. It always ejects me from my suspension of disbelief.

I don’t think so.l, R49. Maybe the bright yellow can and logo showed up better in the low lighting. If so, I’d fire that placement manager...

A can of Alpo might’ve looked like Dinty Moore Beef Stew!

We were watching “Nashville” last night and I noticed they had turned all the Fiji bottles around so you couldn’t see the label!

[quote] It always ejects me from my suspension of disbelief.

Pics please.

R[35] thank you. Still wondering how AC got a French passport. They showed it when he was packing after he spoke to his dad

Cody Fern’s twink boyfriend is obsessed with fattening up his ass. I guess that confirms Cody’s a top. I wonder if he’s a good lay.

Darren will be nominated for lead. Edgar and Max and Judith should all be nominated for supporting. They were all wonderful. Max reminded me of Dustin Hoffman in Midnight Cowboy. Edgar is an effortless actor who becomes the person he's playing without any grandstanding or pretense. He is the biggest film star of all of the guys but Ricky Martin and Penelope are the biggest stars in total. Cunanan's Father was annoying but probably spot on.

[quote]Still wondering how AC got a French passport.

Andrew Cunanan used a french passport with the name Kurt DeMarrs when he checked into the Normandy Plaza. We saw it in episode 2. That is taken from real life.

The person who I think most deserves to win is Jon Jon Briones, but I doubt he will even get nominated since he didn't have enough screentime. Same with Max Greenfield, who is not going to get nominated.

Edgar Ramirez might get nominated, but honestly he wasn't really given a lot to play with sadly. I think Darren and Penelope are the most obvious nominations. And maybe Judith Light, they clearly were trying to give her some extra screentime in the finale to support a possible nomination.

And the real Kurt DeMars was a friend of Andrew's in San Francisco who worked in advertising for Out Magazine.

R[56] R[58] thanks re:passport

[quote]Cody Fern’s twink boyfriend is obsessed with fattening up his ass. I guess that confirms Cody’s a top.

For sure, his boyfriend is proud bottom

So when Xavier Dolan and Cody Fern hook-up, who bottoms for who?

My ranking of the season in order of quality:

Episode 8

Episode 3

Episode 1

Episode 2

Episode 9

Episode 6

Episode 7

Episode 5

Episode 3

Episode 4

loved Marilyn tearing the cops a new one

You hate the David Madson episode r61? Poor Cody.

I think Darren should submit Descent, I feel that was his best performance overall.

My stand outs are Jon Jon Briones followed by Max Greenfield, too.

I think the show was full of solid performances all around, but I'm not as blown away by Judith Light or Penelope as most others.

I also think Darren talking about being straight in all these interviews is, well, for one thing, he keeps getting asked about it, ever since Glee. At one point he seemed tired of it. But now I think he's realized it's important to be conscious since he's taking all these gay roles and he needs to be sensitive about it and address the very clear issue of straight actors doing this kind of thing.

Darren and his Fiance are both bisexual. No question.

R63, I didn’t hate Cody’s performance but yeah, I really hated that episide. The pacing of it alone was deadly, pun intended.

[quote]I think Darren should submit Descent, I feel that was his best performance overall.

Yes now that I am looking at the episode list that is what I meant to say as well, mixing up episodes here. 6, not 7, should be his emmy submission. With 6 and 8 being my favorite performances of his.

The only major (and still living) character who didn't pop up in episode 9 was Norman, Andrew's sugar daddy.

[quote]I also think Darren talking about being straight in all these interviews is, well, for one thing, he keeps getting asked about it, ever since Glee. At one point he seemed tired of it.

It's an assumption he's actually asked every single time, especially in non-real time interviews (print). Sometimes they just retell what he's said before.

Cody Fern is going to look pretty foolish at 30 this year moving up with this 22 flaming twink who's addicted to Adderall on his arm. He needs to move on QUICK.

[quote]Most of the music on this show has been from the 80s, not the 90s.

There were many 90s songs, but you're right, many many from the 80s, Very strange for a show based in the 90s. Maybe they had clearance issues.

Ryan Murphy is a terrible filmmaker who relies too much on music cues.

I understand why the tome periods kept shifting, but it may have played better in the correct order, especially the final episode last night.

R67. Agree, 8 was good also. But JJB steals that one.

R68 Oh, yeah. I actually would've liked to see a reaction from him, even if expected and irrelevant.

The final episode [italic] was [/italic] shown in the correct order. It was shown last.

[QUOTE]The person who I think most deserves to win is Jon Jon Briones, but I doubt he will even get nominated since he didn't have enough screentime. Same with Max Greenfield, who is not going to get nominated.

The prodicers submit an episode for an actor in consideration. The Emmy committee, unless they already watched the entire series has no idea how much screen time an actors has. It's based solely on the submitted episode.

[quote]There were many 90s songs, but you're right, many many from the 80s, Very strange for a show based in the 90s. Maybe they had clearance issues.

Yes because no radio in the world ever played a song from the 80's in the 90's.

I can't believe I watched this whole pointless mess.

I think this was Ryan Murphy's finest work to date. As much as one can look forward to watching the story of a sociopathic murderer, it was a weekly ritual for me, one that I will miss. Darren Criss was perfection. I had never watched Glee,so I was unfamiliar with him. Very impressive.

If you were of age back then, you remember how terrifying those three months were he was on the run. I remember sightings in Boston and NYC at the time I was going back and forth and no one could rest until they caught him. It truly was the last summer without an easily integrated internet, the World Wide Web had just been born- but people didn't have fast enough computers, broadband or modems to be connected like we are today, never mind smartphones. Cellular calls were expensive and by the minute, and also not something people used freely.

The series captured a lot of the angst of the late 90's, I had friends that died from AIDS and just missed the cocktail, hung out with plenty of wannabe guys like Andrew, and I think if your family didn't accept you being gay, you could relate to a lot of the subplots.

I really enjoyed the series but there are aspects I don't think my husband would like, and it brought back bittersweet memories of that summer.

Not being connected by smartphones allowed a lot of freedom- good and bad- like Andrew had on the run. It is something that couldn't really exist today, I think what makes it bittersweet is that in the last 20 years we lost anonymity and the ability to get away with stuff like we did back then (thank God) I'd be in jail for half the stuff I got away with!

so they really cut the whole Jay R Ferguson character: he just had like 1 minute in the first episode. How infuriating!

tragic decor aside, the house Cunanan broke in and died in was not bad at all. Anyone knows if it still stands today?

[quote]tragic decor aside, the house Cunanan broke in and died in was not bad at all. Anyone knows if it still stands today?

Houseboats don't stand Dear, they float.

What mansion did they use for Gianni's in the show? It wasn't a complete set, was it? It was pretty terrific.

R84, they were able to find a reasonable facsimile of Versace's mansion when they went to Miami and found a building known as the Versace Mansion.

They used Versace's real villa in Miami. Now it's a hotel.

Really, r86?

^yes, really

Thanks, r88!

What was the wound on his leg? Did they explain or show how he got it?

[quote] Edgar is an effortless actor who becomes the person he's playing without any grandstanding or pretense. He is the biggest film star of all of the guys but Ricky Martin and Penelope are the biggest stars in total.

???

Penelope Cruz has an Oscar. She's a much bigger film star than Edgar Ramirez.

Judith Light gave the most impressive star performance. That was a performance that was pitched to win awards, because it called attention to itself, but even so it was pretty magnificent.

My favorite more naturalistic performance was Joanna Adler's superb work as Mary Ann Cunanan, but I was also hugely impressed with Jon Jon Briones and Max Greenfield.

Criss was fine, but the part isn't that interesting because Cunanan just wasn't a very deep or interesting person.

I was not impressed with any of the people who played the Versace family, but that's not so much the actors' fault (especially not Edgar Ramirez's) than it is the screenwriter's. He wrote them like they were very shallow people living their life on an operatic grand scale. I found them very off-putting and uninteresting.

[quote]Re playing real people, there's a series right now on USA about the murders of Tupac and Biggie , called Unsolved.

[quote]The guy playing Tupac is a dead ringer and quite good. In fact everybody is good. The best surprise is Jimmi Simpson as one of the detectives, he's terrific.

I have been enjoying that show. It's kind of sad that some reviews trashed it. As for the recent based on true story shows, ACS: Versace and Unsolved have good compared to the Waco mini-series

Judith was ridiculous. She was chewing the scenery.

I’m not looking forward to the next series “Katrina”. I just have no interest in reliving that mess.

Has filming started on Katrina?

[quote]tragic decor aside, the house Cunanan broke in and died in was not bad at all. Anyone knows if it still stands today?

[quote]December 31, 1997, the houseboat started to sink. By December 23 it was tilting at about a thirty-degree angle. Carreira and Steinberg both claim the sinking was sabotage pure and simple, saying that a diver they hired found a wooden plank wedged strategically between the sea wall and the houseboat to jam the hull. The city did not bother to investigate—they wanted the houseboat destroyed.

There was a lot of weirdness in the houseboat and its ownership. Maureen spends a lot of time talking about the mysteries that surround it.

No r96, see r2 if you want to read to Murphy has to say about it.

[quote]Do you suppose it was product placement with the Pedigree Dog Food? I’m always suspicious when I see a name brand. It always ejects me from my suspension of disbelief.

It was not Pedigree. There was some made-up, generic-sounding name on the label.

[quote]I missed the part with his Sugar Daddy...Norman? Because I always Andrew murdered him. I also think Andrew murdered a doctor in a Miami suburb.

Can someone please translate this into English? Is he saying Andrew murdered Norman? Norman is still alive.

So the part where the gunman comes into the houseboat -- where did he get the location information from-- Andrew's father? And who sent him? The mob?

[quote]Can someone please translate this into English? Is he saying Andrew murdered Norman? Norman is still alive.

I wonder if it's the same poster who in a previous thread asked if Andrew killed the fag hag and her husband.

Judith was so convincing my boyfriend had his mobile out ready to order some Pheromone!

Did anyone else think that Max Greenfield was trying to recreate Hoffman's Ratzo Rizzo from Midnight Cowboy?

Maybe Judith will have a role in Katrina. She needs the work especially since Transparent is ending soon.

Dear R91, Penelope is not one of the guys but is a bigger star which I clearly stated.. And yes, R104, I totally thought that.

Yeah, I don’t want to see Katrina and I don’t want to see the Clintons dragged through the mud for the ten billionth time either. Murphy needs a rethink.

R101 I thought it was the houseboat owner calling his caretaker. Or did I get that wrong?

I'm re watching it. It's better the second time around.

This episode was my favorite. The funeral scene was incredible. Andrew pushing the projection TV device into the main room to watch it high up on the wall, the choir singing Psalm 23 with Andrew joining in with "ye though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil" as he looks up and has a smile creep across his face morphing into sadness, cutting to the Priest snubbing Antony's attempted kiss of his hand. Stunning. (I got goosebumps....MARY!)

I thought it was clever that at the end they chose to show Andrews burial site, and that his tomb looked exactly the same as all the other tombs. In contrast with Versace, who was buried in a very beautiful mosoleum.

I felt that the show was trying to make the point that Andrew spent his entire life trying to be "special", but in death he was anything but, because he was a phony his entire life.

r108 I guess you're right-- I must've missed that somehow. The guy just seemed kind of sinister and shady.

I wonder if you can object to being buried (or having your ashes placed) next to someone like Cunanan or Charles Manson.

I kept thinking that burial location was completely unrealistic. Who paid for that prime spot in a mausoleum and the plaque? He'd more likely be buried in an unmarked indigent's grave.

I stand corrected, he does have a site in a mausoleum, in San Diego. Weird that there's a website that tracks this stuff.

[quote]Who paid for that prime spot in a mausoleum and the plaque?

It was his mom Mary Ann who paid for it. From what I remember in Orth's book, Mary Ann claimed his remains and had a Mass for him at the church near the cemetery/mausoleum and some friends and relatives attended in support of her.

Ricky's character didn't die in real life and walked away with millions, right?

R115 LOL There are tons of sites dedicated to death, funerals, cemeteries, celebrity deaths and locating graves.

Fans of this phenomenon are called "death hags."

I assumed that was the real burial site for Cunanan shown in the series but it looks different than the one in R115’s link.

Say what you will but at least Murphy gave Light a decent wig unlike those cheap bastards at Amazon.

I'm really going to miss this show. It was nice having a show with mostly gay characters again. My only complaint is not enough Ricky Martin nudity.

Yep r121. I give Ryan a lot of credit for bringing this story where nearly every character was a gay man to television. I didn't think the execution was always perfect, but I still really enjoyed it.

As for the houseboat, the owner was some kind of rich Perv who Andrew may have either read about or met at one of those rich guy gatherings he used to go to with Norman. It is speculation that he knew what he was looking for and where to go, but it was more likely he'd read about or seen pictures of the houseboat. Apparently this rich guy used the houseboat mainly to hang out and party when he was in town. I'm thinking he was German, and he let friends use it. Andrew, of course was not a friend. He barely knew the guy if he knew him at all. More like he probably observed him and or read about him in fashion or gossip rags like W & Vogue. The rich guy had a caretaker type who would go down and check on things for him from time to time and that's how Andrew was discovered.

I saw on Twitter that Cody Fern was gloating to someone at a panel about making out with Darren Criss in a shower. That was a hot scene. Wish it wasn't such a wide shot though.

Darren Criss is a good-kisser r124, you can tell just from watching his scenes.

Colfer used to joke after their first kissing scene he was like "Damn Darren, I need a cigarette"

R125 Yeah, he really goes for it. His neck was bright red, and they were literally attacking each other. Even in his scene with Lee Miglin? Now if we would have gotten a fantasy sequence with Darren and Edgar...

Also, I have to admit, when you mentioned Colfer's name, I completely forgot about him since Glee. Does anyone know if he is still in the industry? Haven't heard much about him.

Did the priest at Versace's funeral really refuse the kiss on the hand from Antonio or it was just a dramatic license to show how gay couple were not accepted at the time? (not that the shit doesn't happen anymore now, but...)

He has mainly be doing his children's book series r127, though he did pop up as a guest judge on Drag Race recently.

Also do you have a link to that interview r124? I'd like to watch it.

Max Greenfield mopped the floor with Criss. I had to remind myself who the actor actually was both times he appeared on the show. The whole Gianni/Antonio relationship barely resonated because they were actually such a small part of the entire series.

R130 So, it was not an interview actually. It was someone who attended the panel and talked to him after it, I guess? I wish I could remember where it originated, but it was a text screenshot of someone's friend who was there and had the convo with Cody. If I see it again, I'll bring it here. Sorry!

[quote]Yep [R121]. I give Ryan a lot of credit for bringing this story where nearly every character was a gay man to television.

Lee was not gay! NOT GAY!!!

I thought you couldn't have a whole Catholic mass/funeral thing if you committed suicide. Has that changed?

Does Donatella still own the Lake Como house where Gianni is buried? It seems risky to bury a loved one at your home in case you sell it.

The ending at the mausoleum actually reminded me of the ending to San Junipero which was kinda weird.

Murphy is doing a series about Katrina next? Umm the hurricane? Who the hell is Katrina?

Katrina keeps getting pushed back and some of the initial leads dropped out. At first, they were being pretty ambitious with it, but probably realized the scale was too large for them. It's going to be about a hospital during that time. I don't know - it doesn't appeal to me at all. Better served as a movie, I think.

[quote]Colfer used to joke after their first kissing scene he was like "Damn Darren, I need a cigarette"

This was a one-off joke, the context being they did many takes for the scene.

An American Crime Story about Katrina is worthless if it’s not all about GWB.

Well all I can say is there were several shots of Darren Criss that convince me he is a very attractive man.

[quote] Murphy is doing a series about Katrina next? Umm the hurricane? Who the hell is Katrina?

She's the lead singer for The Waves, Rose.

R27, he recently said he's writing and directing a movie for 20th C Fox based on his fantasy series. No word if the Disney merger will affect this in any way.

^^ sorry it was for R127

One thing that does irritate me is that they filmed a BDSM club scene in LA last year for Versace. The reason I know is that one of my former colleagues does background acting pretty regularly. He tried to snag a casting call (because of the large bump - nudity) that called for guys ok wearing leather and performing a simulated gay sex act with the principal actor. He ended up not really pursuing it because they changed the time last minute, but I always wondered when it would show up. Guess it got cut, and we can assume it was Darren because Andrew was heavy into that scene.

Yeah Darren was bitching about how many scenes they filmed ended up getting cut r144, there was a little plotline where Andrew tries to become a porn star that was completely cut out.

Also Ryan Murphy remarks on Andrew being molested by Modesto. Basically to him Modesto giving putting Andrew alone in the the master bedroom was a big red flag that pushed him to that.

[quote]The final two episodes shed a lot of light on Andrew Cunanan's relationship with his father. Do you feel like his dad was the real monster behind this tragedy? In no way did I want to glamorize what Andrew Cunanan did, because what he did was monstrous and horrific and took the lives of five people. I was interested in showing the trail of destruction that he left but also interested in… nobody is born a monster. Nobody is born a psychopath or sociopath and I thought, unlike OJ Simpson, where we never really went into OJ's backstory or childhood in that way, here was an opportunity that we could. And I thought that Andrew's father being a Filipino man and chasing the American dream and having to win at all costs – were things that he passed down to his son. And I think the physical abuse, the sexual abuse, that Andrew witnessed his father hitting his mother repeatedly, the violence that he grew up with, he became desensitized to it and that was all in the water and part of the reason why he was able to kill so easily and with very little remorse.

[quote]What is known about whether Andrew was physically or sexually abused by his father? The show strongly infers it, but doesn't actually go there. It's hard because it's hard to substantiate that. We had people discussing his childhood, who claimed in Maureen Orth's book that, look, any boy that's given the master bedroom…you have have to question what those motivations are about. But obviously, we had a point of view, and Maureen Orth had a point of view, and eye witnesses and people who knew Andrew. But everybody was a victim in it. It's such a dark, American story about identity and the quest for fame and all of that stuff, which are issues that I've always been interested in.

I think it was worthwhile to imply sexual molestation by Andrew's father. Andrew had a fixation on being cared for by rich older men, but he also wanted to abuse them for not living up to his expectations. Not everyone has those kinds of daddy issues -- they have to come from somewhere.

If you read the book, Maureen does ask Modesto if he ever sexually abused Andrew. She said he responded very calmly, "no," and then moved on super quickly. If you're being accused of abusing your son, that reaction was pretty odd. I forget the exact phrasing.

Hmm, so does Cody Fern count as openly gay? What are the rules here.

R117, he didn’t die and he didn’t walk away with hardly anything

R119 it actually looks just like the burial place in the show

The real Antonio didn't get the full amount of money that he was supposed to get in Gianni's will.

[quote]An American Crime Story about Katrina is worthless if it’s not all about GWB.

Yeah I would've liked for them to go all in how the government was fucking useless/malicious because there were a lot of black people who died or got their lives ruined, but the situation they chose for season 3 still fits with the rest.

Season 1 had failure of judiciary, season 2 had failure of police/fbi, and season 3 will be failure/moral dilemmas of healthcare professionals.

[quote]Hmm, so does Cody Fern count as openly gay? What are the rules here.

No.

[quote]I thought you couldn't have a whole Catholic mass/funeral thing if you committed suicide. Has that changed?

Today you can as the CC takes into account mental illness. Also, people still had them if they didn't tell them that the person committed suicide. That info was only known if the parents made them aware, and what family would? The CC had no access to a death certificate.

Of course, if a suicide was front page news, the church would know.

The Catholic Church changed their policies regarding funerals for people who committed suicide in 1983. My dad had a cousin with a history of schizophrenia and he committed suicide in 1986. He said that my great aunt who worried right about the funeral and was surprised when the parish secretary and priest both said the Church changed their stance.

I don’t think a full mass can be performed, though.

It's time to admit that Criss was the weakest of the whole cast (other than the bitchy queen in the party scenes-blechhh)and only got the part by virtue of the fact that he bears such a startling resemblance to Cunanan.

Murphy was smart to cut out all of the gratuitous sex stuff. Viewers like Barbra Streisand don't want to watch stuff like that. They want to see the more emotional and human moments between Gianni and Donatella.

R158 Sorry, cant. In my opinion he was not the strongest, but certainly no the weakest and do think he did a good enough job to deserve recognition.

This article gives details on Andrew's burial. I don't think a regular funeral mass was held. Orth noted it was a Mass of Souls that she attended where she saw that only 15 people including the mother Mary Ann attended. Cunanan's siblings didn't attend. The mother was able to pay for the mausoleum space with money from the Hard Copy interview. The article notes that Modesto wanted Andrew buried in the Philippines. Both parents were enablers. But, I think the mother was the lesser evil as she had mental illness. In a way, the mother deserved to get Andrew's body back while Modesto had left years ago and then tried to exploit the situation in a bigger way.

We must consider viewers like Barbra Streisand!!!!

Darren Criss worked that gun with his mouth didn't he? Took it like a champ.

I doubt that Miss Streisand is a Nielsen family!

[quote] The show strongly infers it

Oh, dear. And this guy is supposed to be a WRITER?

Criss was in almost every scene other than Versace’s story. That’s over 9 hours of footage. Hardly the weakest link.

[quote]Oh, dear. And this guy is supposed to be a WRITER?

Isn't that Murphy speaking? Murphy didn't write the show.

r167 But he IS a writer, no?

sorry, r168.

....

Murphy probably had some influence on Tom Rob Smith.

He really does take it well.

With Manson's recent death, next season needs to be about the Manson murders. I never get tired of that stuff.

Who should play Sharon Tate?

Tarantino’s shooting a film about it soon with Margot Robbie as Tate.

Just because someone is in most of the footage, that doesn't mean they aren't outacted by everyone around them, including the soundtrack, R166.

r175 is there skating involved?

I kind of wonder Murphy and his writers would have done with the Tonya Harding/Nancy Kerrigan story for ACS. It would have been fun to see their stories played out over 8 episodes and then in the final episode there would be the scene of Kerrigan's brother accidentally killing the dad and then Nancy defending her brother on cable news channels.

[quote]I kind of wonder Murphy and his writers would have done with the Tonya Harding/Nancy Kerrigan story for ACS.

Turned it into some Gender Studies/Tumblr SJW bullshit.

[quote]I kind of wonder Murphy and his writers would have done with the Tonya Harding/Nancy Kerrigan story for ACS.

They could still do it, but it work better as "Feud."

I bet Simon Halls had a bitch fit when he saw footage of that hug.

Wait, Cody Fern isn't out? He's all over his BFs Instagram, kissing him, romantic hashtags, etc.

Do you think that Cody's Kadarashian wannabe twink is fuming yet that he isn't bringing him to any events and deleted all his pix except one on IG, essentially hiding him from the world?

Cody is working with his pal Xavier Dolan on his own film right now. The twink honed in and befriended Dolan's producer partner. lol. He obviously wants get connections out of this relationship.

Cody was wearing the twink's fagalicious pants to the set of Versace. Those purple stripped ones. If Cody is really 5'11" and the twink is only 5'6", Cody must have really short legs or the twink must have a really short torso.

Every time I see Cody Fern I see Andrew Mcarthy.

I would have loved to have had a scene with Norman and Terry Sweeney watching the news about Andrew with Sweeney giving Norman side eye.

[quote]Wait, Cody Fern isn't out? He's all over his BFs Instagram, kissing him, romantic hashtags, etc.

Cody has never pretended to be straight. But he also has never said he was gay in interviews about Versace. That that as you will.

[quote]I would have loved to have had a scene with Norman and Terry Sweeney watching the news about Andrew with Sweeney giving Norman side eye.

Yes, that would have been a fun little scene.

Can't believe Cody seems to have no relationship with his gay brother. He invited his other brother, who appears to be his half-brother to Hollywood, as a birthday president, along with the twink. He totally ignores the gay bear brother. It's sort of sad. Almost like his ashamed of him. Maybe they have issues.

Cody just re-followed the twink on Instagram. The twink doesn't follow him though. Cody's brother doesn't follow him. His bear brother is almost nude. It's hilarious.

*birthday present

Cody's bro.

[quote]Do you think that Cody's Kadarashian wannabe twink is fuming yet that he isn't bringing him to any events

This picture was taken from the set of Versace, but yes, he doesn't bring him on the red carpet.

[quote]Can't believe Cody seems to have no relationship with his gay brother.

There might be real reasons for that. God knows outsiders never know family dynamics.

R185 Thank you for bringing this up!! Was the first thing I thought myself when I first saw Cody Fern in this series for the first time. (Don't know him from anything else). But DAMN, the resemblance!

Ready for Cody.

Cody's mother, probably referring to his brother:

By Sandra Ciabarri - Posted on Aug 2, 2011

i also have a gay son and again its not what i would wish for my child to be but it is something that you must as a parent accept if you love your child. My son also has a wonderful partner and they are both extremely gentle happy people. It is certainly a shock when you are first told but it is something that very quickly becomes a concern to a parent because you know instantly that they are going to be met with widespread prejudice and disdain by the community at large. I support my son and his choice and if others choose not to then it is their loss.

Yikes r196.

It could be worst of course, I've known guys whose parents were completely antagonistic, but that post is the lowest ring of "acceptance" possible.

His choice...

Well, it was 2011, 7 years ago. They come from Southern Cross, a little place in the middle of nowhere in Australia. She has Vote Yes for gay marriage on her Facebook page with her son.

I love how Cody Fern padded his bio, saying he was the first person to attend university in his family, which is not true. His mother is college educated. Love actors. lol He did go on scholarship though. His brother didn't attend.

R117, Antonio didn't die in the series, either.

Yes, r111, that visual point was made. But another, more universal point was made as well: In death, we are equals. Outer trappings---the foci of both men's lives--- of lush gardens or elaborate mausoleum matter not. In death, Andrew Cunanan became as Gianni Versace.

Andrew Cunanan, not Donatella, was the Medusa.

If any of you are fans of "Elementary": I could swear (Mary!) that in Season 4's Episode 3 ("Tag, You're Me"), there is a prominent photo of Darren Criss (wearing Cunanan-style glasses) tacked onto a wall of photos of paired doppelgangers!

R111, Why the Clintons (and why plural, anyway?)? Katrina was under Bush's watch. Just like 9/11 was. Not to mention the illegal invasion of Iraq.

Good times.

Did Andrew really kill himself when they stormed the boat or had he already offed himself?

He was already dead r202. It took them awhile before they even stormed the boat, the whole thing was a chaotic mess in real life with a lot of miscommunication.

Wow. That brother looks very different than cody. Looks like trash that doesn't give a shit. And i mean that in a good way. Haha. That's not gonna work for pretty boy brother's acting image. Datalounge detectives be going in! Love y'all.

Cody's brother's boyfriend is very complimentary towards him. Cody's brother just couldn't give a shit. He deals in parrots. It's hilarious. He's a big bear nerd. He watches every other Ryan Murphy show except Versace, although, to be fair, it probably hasn't reached Australia yet. He could at least have given it a follow. He has like two photos with Cody. One with his boyfriend at one of Cody's stage shows back in Australia, and one at home, where he's not even standing next to him. Last year, at Cody's big homecoming, his brother is no where to be seen. The twink is there though. It must have been his first introduction to the family. I doubt the mother is pleased. While it's nice that Cody would go for a total flamer, it's sort of sad that he would go for someone so friggin vapid. He's well-educated and he'd banging some idiot who does Youtube videos with Matthew Lush. He's been with the twink for almost four years. Said twink doesn't even have a real job, nor wants one. Get it together Cody.

r203

thanks, could they tell how long he had been dead before they came in?

So is this just a Cody thread or

Why can't it also discuss Cody r207? I mean the show is over, there are only so many things to talk about. Plus there is a new gay actor on the scene, of course DL will want to discuss it.

r202 a shot was heard from inside the houseboat at 8:03pm, hours before the authorities stormed in.

OMG, I never knew that Maureen Orth is the widow of NBC's Tim Russert! I used to watch him every Sunday morning. This makes me respect her even more.

I know everyone is gay on DL, but thoughts on Edgar? Gay or nah? He's pretty flirty with Darren.

Edgar is Bi. He slept with two people I know. One from column A, one from column B. Don't know if he's hit up any Trangenders yet.

[quote]a shot was heard from inside the houseboat at 8:03pm, hours before the authorities stormed in.

But was that the suicide shot or the one Cunanan fired to warn off the caretaker? (Or was that part just made up for TV?)

Ricky Martin isn't much of an actor, but he's sure nice to look at.

R211 Ricky and Edgar have known each other for a while and call each other brothers so probably not straight.

[quote]What I found interesting is in the Vanity Fair podcast Darren Criss talked about one of the things that ate at him was how "gay" to play Andrew

He played Andrew *very* gay. I wonder if that was a choice or an actor who had no other options.

I don't get the love for Judith Light. She was chewing the scenery like it was pastrami form the old Carnegie Deli.

Cody posted a new pic of the twink. Someone asked who it was. A person explained it was Eric Smith, Cody’s boyfriend. People were surprised Cody was gay. With each message about Eric or Cody being gay, and there weren’t that many, Cody deleted them. They are now completely gone. So Cody is indeed closeting himself.

And I'm sure that Cody's PR agent is very happy that the strategy of creating buzz is working.

Yep r219. I saw that as well, every comment that referenced Cody being gay or his boyfriend Eric was deleted. I guess Cody Fern does not want people knowing he is gay, which is disappointing.

So why post pix of the twink then? Maybe to placate him? Maybe he was going to throw a hissy fit. “I WONT BE IGNORED, CODY!”

[quote]What I found interesting is in the Vanity Fair podcast Darren Criss talked about one of the things that ate at him was how "gay" to play Andrew

When someone says "how gay" they mean only one thing, how flamboyant and femme. Because that's the stereotype shortcut for "gay" in popular culture.

First, he was a real person who lived not that long ago, people still live who knew him and how he came across. Second, he was atracted to guys and slept with guys, that's what gay is. It isn't equivalent to how much you gesticulate or how much you wiggle - or not - your ass.

Third, if they wanted to be true to his gayness, they should have shown the bsdm club scene they apparently shot.

Do Edgar and Ricky converse in Spanish?

Yes. they use the word "pinga" a lot.

Hee Hee!

After reading Cody's mother's reluctant but accepting words about his brother being gay, I imagine she was nearly apoplectic when she learned that both her sons bat for the other team.

I am the only other member of the "not too crazy about Criss's performance as Andrew. By no means did he stink up the joint, and he surely did have his moments. But on a level of at Sarah Paulson and the black dude who played Chris Darden in the OJ TV movie, I felt it was not such a tour de force turn. I guess I would give him a B-/C+. I really liked the actor who plated Jeff Trail. He completely convinced me that he was a proud Navy man whose heart was broken by the dismissal from the service. And I enjoyed his interactions with Andrew.

Criss is best in scenes when he is by himself. As soon as he in next to another actor, you realize he's a bit amateurish.

I thought Ricky would have more nudity in this series. Interesting.

I'm just happy we got a nice showcase of Darren Criss' ass. As someone that watched "Glee" I've been wanting to see his ass. And I was afraid it might only be a small glimpse or something.

R230 Yes, now that's one fucking amazing ass. A lot to grab onto. The glimpse we saw of Ricky's was unflattering, but it may have been because it was so quick.

Could Cody’s mother not know her son’s a bender? Could Cody have introduced the twink he brought home last year as a friend? The photos are hilarious. He isn’t sitting next to Cody at the homecoming. Maybe Cody doesn’t want word getting back to mama. She already had one meltdown over Jayden Big Bear Fern being a flamer, not our Cody too. 🤣 Could third time be the charm with the youngest half brother? She’ll have a heart attack.

Still can’t believe a 30 year old university educated guy who got there on scholarship who worked for a big commerce agency in Australia who then went off to Hollywood and won the Heath Ledger scholarship and has workshopped with some of the greats has also spent the last four years fucking an airhead 22 year old who talks about nothing but his ass and the Kardashians. Cody talks about acting methods and deep philosophy... sex is enough for him... for four years?!! Jesus. I’d kill myself having to deal with a twink like Eric Smith and the flamers he hangs around with. Hopefully Cody ain’t into drugs and ain’t barebacking.

R229 Maybe there wasn't enough budget for all the makeup needed to cover all his tats.

Were there any Italian Americans in this thing?

[quote]spent the last four years fucking an airhead 22 year old who talks about nothing but his ass and the Kardashian

Yeah I am surprised Cody's boyfriend is so damn basic. Makes me think a little less of Cody.

[quote]Were there any Italian Americans in this thing?

Francesca Fanti who played Versace's english speaking mother is Italian.

[quote] With Manson's recent death, next season needs to be about the Manson murders.

Too late. Next season is about Hurricane Katrina. You've not been paying attention.

How is a hurricane an American crime? Sounds like it should be on The Weather Channel. Audiences want murder, sex and nudity not rain and wind.

[quote] How is a hurricane an American crime?

For god's sake think of the Heineken dealers.

r238 = Barbara Bush. There was nothing wrong with the way Katrina was handled!

And I will say, we have learned Cody doesn't use google alerts on himself/has seen this thread. If he had he would have gotten Eric to shut down his private instagram account or at least make it private.

r238, your ignorance is staggering.

The ratings will back me up R241.

In other words, then, you're saying the American public is as ill-informed as you are.

Katrina will have better ratings than his season did at least.

Yeah I thought it was weird when that poster tried to bring up some ratings argument, when the ratings for this season were not great. This was the niche season (read too gay), it was a hit on the DL but not so much in culture at large.

Just binged to episode 5. It's not as riveting as OJ. Very dark. The ping-ponging timeline of the storytelling is bad. Ramirez and Criss are both really good. Emmy nominations are a lock for those two.

In Live + Seven Day ratings for the week of March 7, ACS was the fifth most highly rated show in cable (18-49 demo). It was 0.1 rating behind Atlanta and The Alienist, which tied for fourth.

Not OJ numbers, but not a ratings bust by any means.

I think, overall, this was a net negative media exposure for gays. It reinforced a bunch of deep-rooted ideas about gay decadance and or tawdry party life, and had almost no sympathetic or admirable characters at all. Even apart from all the deep flaws in the storytelling/structure just the choice of subject matter was questionable.

And here I was thinking that Darren and Cody surely fucked after that shower scene. But by the looks of that boyfriend, looks like he has a different...type.

Nobody is really gay. God doesnt like it. I was gay for ten years, and then I read the bible. I think everyone here should too.

Cody told a Darren Criss fan who was wearing a shirt with his picture on it, “I got to make out with him in the shower!” This was at the For Your Consideration event. Cody’s twink is no one to be seen in photos with Cody’s older gay crowd, nor is he on their Friends list. It seems like Cody has his friends and the twink has his and they rarely mix. Still though, having to listen to Eric Smith would drive a person nuts. Eric was a emo twink 10 years ago who went by a bunch of names online and became an internet meme. He was a big Belieber. In one of his Eric Smith videos, he directs people to visit an office for skin care - it’s a plastic surgeon’s office. He looks different from ten years ago. I wonder if he had some work done.

[quote]Cody told a Darren Criss fan who was wearing a shirt with his picture on it, “I got to make out with him in the shower!”

That's one way to win fangurls for himself among the gay-fetishizing Criss fanbase.

10 years ago r251? Didn't someone say Eric Smith is only 22.

According to the book, David Madsen liked black men and went through at least 3 black boyfriends.

Yes, we talked about that. I thought it was odd that they didn't have the extra that David hooks up with while Andrew was visiting black.

His experience with Andrew and Greg Nelson largely turned him off from white guys.

[quote] Just binged to episode 5. It's not as riveting as OJ.

What made the OJ series more interesting was the intrigue of the trial. This one had no trial.

Imagine if OJ had died soon after he killed his two victims. That would have made for a pretty boring series.

[quote]10 years ago [R251]? Didn't someone say Eric Smith is only 22.

Try Googling the names Jake Archie, Bruno Harper, Jake Archuleta

Cody’s trolling twink back in the day.

....

[quote]Imagine if OJ had died soon after he killed his two victims

If only.

Cody being all submissive to Darren in the initial bathroom shower scene. Mmm. Had high hopes they would show their BDSM relationship.

Do we know for a fact that they had a BDSM relationship?

R261 If I remember correctly, weren’t they seen only kissing in the shower? Did I miss something? How was he being “submissive”?

Cody’s twink goes on and on about how much he hates armpit hair but how he keeps it on because of society but it doesn’t fit his aesthetic. Good Christ.

Is he actually dating Jessica Chastain?

Jessica Chastain is married r265.

Edgar is her gay buddy.

Edgar is hot as fuck. IFHH and ILHFMH.

Edgar is ghey, henny.

I hope we get to see more of Edgar.

We’ve already seen his cawk.

They were in Zero Dark Thirty together. That's probably where they hit it off.

They would make a good looking couple, but I'm more interested in seeing his bf. if he has one.

Who has he been linked with before? Male or female.

that thing at r264 is Cody Fern's BF??? Jesus, how embarrassing!

Darren Criss did an interview with Peter Travers where he talked about Andrew's assimilation into the BDSM community, and how their show got into it, but not much at all. So I'm thinking there was definitely some cut material. It would tie together why he wrapped his face in tape, as well as Lee's face and that old guy in Miami. Did anyone catch how he knew immediately where David's toys were? I think I saw a paddle, ball gag, etc.

R271 I don't think he's been seriously linked to anyone at all.

I 'm re reading Orth. David was a top and Andrew was a top and they argued about sex. David bottomed for him a couple times but Andrew complained that David was telling him what to do, and then David complained that Andrew wanted to do S&M things, "weird things" and David refused. David flirted around the fringes of the S&M scene but while he'd go to the S&M bars from tie to time, and was seen there, no one remembers him doing anything.

Andrew, according to two young guys he hung out with before he went on his rampage, they said Andrew reached a point where he would spend money on Porn especially "raw" S&M Porn, and he'd do meth and masturbate. That was his sex life after things unraveled for him with both Jeff & David. When his sister and his friends would ask Jeff why he kept hanging out with Andrew and putting up with him, Jeff said, "Andrew is like a brother you know he's fucked up, but he has no one at all, and no where else to go, so you put up with it. " or words to that effect.

At a certain point though, Jeff was over it. He was done with Andrew, and Andrew's drug dealing, and his lies. Andrew lived more and more with his false image. He was a nuisance every one dreaded when he'd just show up and some social gathering and tag along. His turning point, IMO was when Norman threw him out. He was so sure Norman would take him back, call him, etc. but it didn't happen.

The TV series is pretty faithful to the book. I don't know about the murder of Lincoln, Andrew claimed he was there, but no one knows if that was the way it went down. The guy who killed him, was accurate though, and the killer confessed. The attitude of the cops is really the whole point to me. The homophobia definitely got in the way of their investigation.

Darren makes me hard.

Darren looked real good in a lot of his scenes. Ryan got some good shots of him......

You sure you read it right r275? I don't recall ever David ever being described as a top, when Maureen talked to other boyfriends I remember one specifically described him as an enthusiastic bottom who liked it rough. But I don't have the book in front of me right now.

maybe the tv show decided to not really show the SM and drug part of Cunanan's life because that would have confirmed every bigot's idea about gay "lifestyle".

R278 I also thought David was exclusively a bottom as well. Which is why it kinda worked out for him and Andrew...until things fell apart of course. David was known in that scene in Minneapolis.

J'adore r218.

Light presented like an anorexic loon. I like her work generally, but this time she gave too much.

In the interview at r16 Antonio states that Gianni's will left him 1) an annual payment from his trust of about 30k dollars for life and 2) all of Gianni's properties.

I believe the miserable annual pittance which says a great deal about Gianni's take on their relationship.

But re the homes he states he didn't want them so he gave them back. Gurl, Please.

Its fairly evident Gianni himself didn"t show Antonio much respect so why would Santo and Donatella?

The high journalistic standards of the Sun are shown again r282. Gianni outlined that Antonio D'amico was to get a MONTHLY payment of 30k (that was also tied to inflation), not per year.

Well Cody Fern’s a top, so maybe he demanded to portray David as one. 🤪

Cody and his bf are both bottoms.

Cody would have left him by now if he was really a bottom.

Well how would that work? Two bottoms? Double ended dildo? That’d satisfy his bf of nearly four years? Hard to believe. Unless they have an open relationship. I can’t believe Eric Smith is faithful regardless. Maybe Cody went to West Hollywood and explored his sexuality and this dude was his ss relationship. It’s pathetic regardless. Cody needs a slap.

[quote]How is a hurricane an American crime? Sounds like it should be on The Weather Channel.

Next season is being adapted from the book Five Days at Memorial by Sheri Fink. Believe it or not, a hospital in the United States of America ("We #1! We #1!") was cut off from the outside world for FIVE DAYS. They had no electricity, no running water, the temperature was 100 degrees, and they had a floor full of sick and terminally ill elderly patients. 45 people died in that hospital and anywhere between 9 and 24 of those may have been victims of euthanasia.

[quote]David flirted around the fringes of the S&M scene but while he'd go to the S&M bars from tie to time,[/quote]

Pun intended?

R287 Who the hell are you to say who Cody should love or have as a boyfriend? Don’t we have enough straights telling us who we “should” love?

R290 = Eric Smith shaving every last hair off of his body and injecting his buttcheeks.

Who's the top in a Cody/Darren/Finn situation?

^^^ Who is Lucky Pierre?

[quote]Who's the top in a Cody/Darren/Finn situation?

Finn's wife, with a strap-on.

R293 Darren, without a doubt.

"Yes, we were all in the same bathroom last night. And that’s all I’ll ever say about that! #gq"

Of course none of them want anything to do with poor Cody. Won’t even give him a follow.

Cody is too busy with his hipster Instagram photoshoots.

[quote] Darren looked real good in a lot of his scenes. Ryan got some good shots of him......

I never read the book but I thought one of the reasons Cunanan was bitter and angry was because guys his own age didn't find him attractive. It was hard to convey that with Criss because he's cute. He's cuter than Finn Wittrock so I didnt understand why guys would prefer Jeff over Cunanan.

[quote] It's time to admit that Criss was the weakest of the whole cast (other than the bitchy queen in the party scenes-blechhh)and only got the part by virtue of the fact that he bears such a startling resemblance to Cunanan.

Nope. Never paid attention to Criss before but he was completely captivating. This is a starmaking performance for him. He will be among the biggest of stars -- like Golden Globe Winner Matt Bomer.

R299 Yeah, it was strange. Especially that scene with Finn & Darren at the bar. But I think they tried to say it was a "look" those guys had. Blonde, preppy, etc.

[R299] Highly recommend the book -- the show definitely did not feature some of the most titillating and most compelling parts of the Cunanan story included in the Orth book.

A few years ago the highly redacted FBI reports on the Cunanan investigation were made public. I had read the book before I read the FBI reports and, Maureen Orth is either a phenomenal investigative reporter and/or had a great FBI source because the FBI files validate the accuracy of the book.

[quote] Cody is too busy with his hipster Instagram photoshoots.

They're over two years old. Everything on there is so freakin random. lol. His bf is posting almost porn of himself on two accounts and on a third sells shit he finds in thrift stores. He's Cody's stylist, I guess.

I don't think I want to read the book. He was a twisted, demented sick fuck and I only want to think of him that way. I dont want to read anything sympathetic about him.

If Eric Smith were a woman he'd be getting pregnant right about now. I'm afraid he's going to get left in the dust as Cody starts to hit this big leap in his career.

Everyone was really good in their roles, even Finn W., who I normally hate. Max Greenfield, the man who played the father, Ramirez and Cody were standout good. Criss was very good, but sadly, the others were phenomenal. Cross may get a nom but he may not win if he has stiff competition.

R304 I don't think the book ever made Andrew sympathetic. Orth detailed how spoiled Andrew was by his parents from his early childhood and on. Some of the things depicted in the show like Andrew having the master bedroom, getting a sports car etc were detailed by Orth. Also, the book mentions the incident of Andrew throwing his mom against a wall and mistreating her in other ways.

Vulgar Favors on David, Andrew and S&M

Page 163:

San Francisco friend John Semerau claims that more than once Andrew invited him to have three-ways with him and David. “I had dinner with him and David on two occasions. They wanted me to have sex with them. I never had sex with them,” Semerau says. “Andrew then invited me to come to their hotel room to see the new leather underwear and cock rings they had bought.”

There is also a leather scene in Minneapolis, and Minneapolis police say that David was acquainted with it. ,,, A couple of blocks down the street [from David's loft] is Y’All Come Back Saloon, a popular gay bar that on Sundays features “tank night.” “You can put a wall between two pool tables in the back and section off part for the tank. People have sex on the pool table, people perform fellatio right then and there. Nobody pays attention, because that’s what happens in a hard-core leather bar,” Stan Hatley reports. His onetime roommate worked there.

It, too, has a dress code, and Hatley says he saw David Madson at the Saloon on tank nights. “I guess you could say he was dressed appropriately.” Stan explains that Monday night, the Saloon’s “S&M night,” is more for straights, who congregate on a big dance floor. “You go there; they hang people in cages and whip people with whips.” On Thursday, the S&M night is at yet another Minneapolis gay bar, Ground Zero, where the cage is in the main room. “I had seen Dave Madson in these types of places,” Hatley maintains. Nevertheless, the Madson family and many friends do not believe that David was ever involved in rough sex

R305 Darren is predicted to win by 7/9 critics so far on GoldDerby, as well as about 600 users. The next closest is Al Pacino at around 100 votes. Penelope and Edgar will be nommed but don't look to be favored to win. Penelope is up against Laura Dern. Judith could also sneak in as a nom. No shot for Finn or Cody. The category is stacked.

I hate when one of you bitches say "he's a lock for an Emmy nomination". Get a life.

Well he is. Whether he wins or not is the question. Murphy will certainly try to get him one.

Is this the type of show to be forgotten by the time award season comes?

R308 again, I thought he was very good, but as someone mentioned upthread he was great on his own, but when he was acting with someone more talented, it showed. I appreciate the stats, but i also thought Sterling K. Brown was a lock and I was wrong.

Not saying he is undeserving, just that there were others who were fantastic.

R311 First season got quite a few accolades in general but this season might get lost in the shuffle since it's not even brand new among other reasons.

GoldDerby sometimes messes up with their predictions. Last year, many of the experts, editors, and forum users were predicting that Rita Moreno would get an Emmy nomination for the One Day At A Time reboot. She was snubbed when nominations rolled around.

A snub is when a big name doesn't get nominated and is expected (see Rita or Al this year). Darren is not a big name. Regardless of your personal feelings about Darren Criss, it's pretty obvious he's getting nominated. Whether he wins, who knows. Last year, users did NOT overwhelmingly pick Rita, and it was split on experts. Also most of these voters don't watch half the shows - they just check off the shows they recognize. This would bode well for ACS in general, because of the name recognition. Also, R312? Sterling won his Emmy.

R309 You might be in the wrong thread if you're that ~hot and bothered about people predicting Emmy nominations for the LEAD actor in the SHOW thread. I've pulled the thread description down for your easy access: Continue to discuss your feelings on the finale, the season, its award chances, and Cody Fern's boyfriend.

[quote]Nope. Never paid attention to Criss before but he was completely captivating. This is a starmaking performance for him.

Dude, you're late. THIS is his starmaking performance. The song even went to Number 1 the next week.

Broadway

[quote]Last year, users did NOT overwhelmingly pick Rita, and it was split on experts. Also most of these voters don't watch half the shows - they just check off the shows they recognize. This would bode well for ACS in general, because of the name recognition. Also, [R312]? Sterling won his Emmy.

Right now, most the Gold Derby editors are again picking Rita in the comedy supporting actress category. Most of the experts predictions are also picking her. Again, I think the Rita prediction won't pan out this year and I'll laugh at the Gold Derby experts and editors again.

I think Darren will get nominated in his category for ACS. But, I don't see him winning.

A nomination for Criss is kind of like a win for him. Never thought he'd get this but judging by his performance he deserves it.

I was wrong. David bottomed, but he was always telling Andrew what to do. I just checked my book.Pages 161 - 175 give us the full picture of David...including the fact that he was stii ill dealing with a real bastard ex who stalked him, and behaved so outrageously David had to go y to court. Greg Nelson.

Cody Fern was already familiar with Criss as he went to see him in Hedwig.

How did Maureen Oath find out so much about Andrew and David’s sex life?

[quote]How did Maureen Oath find out so much about Andrew and David’s sex life?

From interviewing friends of Andrew and David respectively. You find out what Andrew told people about it, and what David told people about it.

David complained that Andrew was awkward in bed, which isn't surprising.

Also Andrew was excited that he found a guy that would let him do "whatever he wanted" to him.

The other thing I got from Orth's book is that Andrew liked the S&M porn and began watching more and more of it, even wanting to try certain things on David who seemed to draw the line at bondage. But Andrew spiraled downward into a haze of S&M porn and meth.

For those who hated the reverse chronological order, found this on tumblr.

[quote] I thought one of the reasons Cunanan was bitter and angry was because guys his own age didn't find him attractive. It was hard to convey that with Criss because he's cute.

Cunanan was so lazy he almost never went to the gym, and as we all know, hot gay men in the prime of life (especially in California, where Cunanan lived) usually have a rule of: no pecs, no sex. Older men looking for sugarbabies as a rule care much less about that (they often just want someone cute and younger); but as Cunanan became older and gained weight, he became even less attractive even to the sugardaddies.

One thing that was a little odd about the miniseries is that even if Darren Criss is not hugely muscular, he certainly is thinner and more toned than Cunanan was during his rampage, by which time Cunanan had even become chunky (being a short man means you wear weight less well than taller men do). And since Cody Fern is more of a twink than a bodybuilding hunk (which is what the real David Madson was), the element of Madson rejecting Cunanan sexually--which was an important part of the arc of their relationship in real life--was missing from the miniseries.

[quote] It was hard to convey that with Criss because he's cute. He's cuter than Finn Wittrock so I didnt understand why guys would prefer Jeff over Cunanan.

Of course, that is a matter of opinion. I find Finn much cuter than Darren. And he is a much better actor. Andrew was cute, but once he started doing a lot of meth, he let himself go. By the time he died he was wearing size 36 jeans. No wonder he killed himself.

One of the most curious things from the Orth book that the series did not include [it would have been difficult to work it into the series] is the story of the houseboat.

The houseboat was owned by a German national called Torsten Reineck who just happened to own Las Vegas' largest bathhouse: the Apollo.

Orth wrote that inside the houseboat, police found .22 caliber bullets under the bed, some “white powder in a clear plastic bag,” which was not tested, and a fake passport and driver’s license in the name of Matthias Ruehl, the same alias that Torsten Reineck used—Matthias “Doc” Ruehl—as the operator of a gay bathhouse in Las Vegas.

The passport and license were from the unrecognized principality of Sealand—a piece of rock about the size of a football field six miles off the British coast. “Sealand” was also the vanity license plate of the big Rolls-Royce Reineck drove around Miami.

On July 23rd Reineck had gone voluntarily to the Las Vegas FBI with a lawyer. Reineck told the FBI that he was a big fan of Versace’s and said he had met Versace’s press secretary once, but he claimed that he did not know Andrew Cunanan and agreed to take a polygraph test the next day “on the Cunanan matter only.”

Reineck never showed up for his polygraph and the FBI in Las Vegas didn’t even start looking for him again until a week later. Reineck had been wanted in Germany since 1992 for for tax fraud (although Germany had not yet asked for his extradition) and also had overstayed his visa.

Orth presents evidence demonstrating that: 1. Cunanan had been to the Apollo many times. 2. Cunanan and Reineck were acquaintances at the very least.

While she did not claim that Reineck was harboring Cunanan, she certainly presents a compelling argument for it.

She writes of an interesting exchange between the houseboat's caretaker and his son which suggests that the caretaker did not randomly check on the houseboat that day, rather he was instructed to by Reineck.

Cody Fern isn’t a twink. Twunk? He’s sort of fit fat.

Marilyn Miglin: "We had the fairy tale."

Me at TV: "No, honey, you had the fairy."

lmao.

Thank you to R326.

[quote]A nomination for Criss is kind of like a win for him. Never thought he'd get this but judging by his performance he deserves it.

I thought he was good in the role and deserving of a nomination. The one based on a true story limited series that was a total letdown was Waco.

Why does everyone say “Waco” was so bad? I’ve only seen the first two episodes, and plan to see more later.

I’m still withholding judgment until I see the whole thing, but I’m wondering why others didn’t like it after watching it all?

New interview with Cody.

Cody sure is good looking and his acting in “Versace” was great; his management must be thrilled right now.

It really is like he has a whole career now overnight. Interesting to see where he goes from here...

Well this will be House of Cards’s final season, so it’s not going to end up being an ongoing gig and it’s on Netflix. He could easily disappear. He said that 2019 would be devoted to his first feature film. He’s producing it with Xavier Dolan and his people.

Cody did a short film where he did a cockney accent. It was unbelievably convincing. I was waiting to see if he would come out as gay in the above interview. lol

The only thing with Cody is that he seems to have no fashion sense or “style”.

The loud and over the top outfits he wears don’t really do anything for him and end up detracton from his looks and talent.

He should get a decent professional stylist stat; image is part of having a long career in Hollywood.

At least Darren Criss and Edgar Ramirez try with their style and fashion—and they usually look good on red carpets...

*detracting from

Cody is not ashamed of being gay, he is ashamed of of people finding out about the silly airhead he dates. It ruins his serious actor image.

I don’t know why, but I feel like that boyfriend would try to burn Cody bad (and publicly) if he dumps him.

There’s something so “Look at ME!” about him that makes me think he wouldn’t let Cody get away easily right now...

The bf is his stylist. They already share clothes. I agree, the twink will ruin him. He’s already a known druggie and a narcissist. However, the fact that Cody has been with him for so long makes me wonder what the connection is. Hopefully Cody isn’t dabbling in the drug scene as well. Twinky just posted yet another underwear shot of himself sitting on the floor on his Instagram story. He lists Airbnb on Facebook as his job and stylist on Instagram. lol. Good god. How many guys has this boy blown to get a ticket to LA? He only has a high school education. He ain’t gonna be a twink forever.

Cody is cute and humble. I agree, he and Darren has really great chemistry in the show. Would be interesting to see them in a show together without all the darkness. I thought at one point he might work in his sexuality, but I don't blame him for keeping it strictly about the role.

thank god its over. criss was a bit of a let down, mrs miglin was my fave: on with the cosmetics show luv......finn alwys a high point, ... some of the smaller characters held more appeal than the main ones. his mom's role was a bit wasted. . I feel the script was ...adrift.

DO ONE ON GAYBOY AARON HERNANDEZ...if ye dare.

[quote] I thought at one point he might work in his sexuality

You must have missed his instagram comment deleting spree, boy doesn't want to be out.

From the way Darren played cunnanan, I failed to see why he was so seductive, cute, but immensely annoying. the brilliant cody I could have seen in that role, he has the look and the charm.

BEST OF LUCK TO U CODY, I GREET U ON THE PERCH OF A FAB CAREER SIR.

^^ Colin, D.G., etc - why do you keep signing off with different names, when it's the same account that stalked all of these Versace threads to cry about Darren Criss?

Younger Andrew Cunanan was flashy. He got your attention. But he was also smart. He could talk you under the table he knew so much about so much. But his strong suit in the earlier days was hooking people up. He would introduce people to one another and include them in his parties and dinners. He flashed a lot of money around and made up fanciful stories about his background, and he could talk about all kinds of stuff, make you feel like he "knew people" etc. To guys who were young and just finding their way, he was like a mentor, and he was remembered by a lot of people from that time as a kind, generous interesting person. He knew he wasn't going to make it in Porn, or as a model, so he decided to go after the older rich guys many of whom were closeted, but some ere not. He would study. He read voraciously magazines about fashion, about architecture, art, interior design, celebrity, etc. and he was always up on the latest. So much so that he could easily give the impression that he was an insider. When he met Norman and Lincoln it was no accident.

[quote]But he was also smart

I'm surprised the show left out how Andrew tested at a high IQ as a kid.

[quote] Andrew was cute, but once he started doing a lot of meth, he let himself go. By the time he died he was wearing size 36 jeans. No wonder he killed himself.

Quintessential DL pointless bitchery.

Yes let's have Cody Fern play a half Asian dude, lol

You go a whole season and Ryan wouldn't spare one kiss. Impressive for him.

Instead of Katrina, Ryan should do the Madalyn Murray O’Hair story.

I would love to see “American Crime Story: The Black Dahlia Murder” at some point.

To borrow from [R356], it has everything!

There’s never been a decent, satisfying, or comprehensive film or television adaptation of the story—and that story captivated Hollywood and the U.S. for *years*.

If Murphy went by the Steve Hodel book on the murders along with the interviews given by Hodel’s sister, Tamar, they would have an excellent, bone chilling real life villain in the form of the very well connected Hollywood doctor, George Hodel (the accused murderer).

There’s so much to that story: class differences, America’s obsession with fame, the male/female power dynamic, police corruption, corruption in Hollywood, illegal abortions, a sadistic killer, a murdered secretary, a dismembered wannabe starlet, and OMG, that fabulous but completely terrifying looking Frank Lloyd Wright house Hodel had built and lived in on Franklin Ave. in Hollywood!

Not to mention Hodel’s debauched life of incest with his daughter and granddaughter and all the children with different women he had living in his house as his “harem”.

Also of interest would be that he was an underground abortion and STD doctor to the stars, had blackmail files on all the rich and powerful in Hollywood and L.A. politics, and had twisted lifelong friendships with director John Huston and most of the most famous surrealist painters and photographers of the day, like Man Rey and Salvador Dali...

The “Black Dahlia” herself, Elizabeth Short....

The creepy ass Sowden House that the evil Dr. lived in and is alleged to have held Elizabeth captive at for several days before torturing and murdering her...

GRAPHIC CONTENT WARNING ON PHOTO

The “American Crime” part of the story....

Who would play the evil Dr. though?

Someone on another site suggested Jeffrey Dean Morgan for the evil doctor.

American Crime Story: Election 2016

R315, sorry I meant Golden Globe. My mistake. I thought SKB was so good in People v OJ that I thought he'd sweep all the awards. Darrin, I dunno. He seems to be outacted in every scene.

American Crime Story: The Final Punishment of JonBenet.

Featuring Datalounge's own sassy Patsy Ramsey.

That cunt Susan Sarandon can play Patsy Ramsey.

Sarandan is too old.

I would hire Susan Sarandon to take out my trash.

Years ago, there was a very good movie that I saw several times I liked it so much. I think it may have been about the Black Dahlia. It was called "True Confessions" and it starred Robert De Niro and Robert Duvall as brothers. One was a semi corrupt police Detective, the other was a priest. Anyway, they cop is assigned to a homicide where they find a woman's body in a field in L.A. and she's cut in two. He tracks it back to some prominent Catholic Church Patrons, rich guys who suck up to the bishop, etc.

I wear a 36 waiste.

Argh R362, I never want to see Jeffrey Dean Morgan eyefuck mugging for the camera ever again.

I find funny that the some of the most moving moments in ACS:Versace were Marilyn's tv sales. They were really well written and conveyed grief and resilience. And Judith Light acted the shit out of them.

Article from 1997 written by a friend of Jeff and Andrew.

Great Article, R372

thanks for the article.

Does anyone know the full name of "Corporal Jay", from R372's article? Let's look him up!

What is everyone's thoughts on Emmy chances for this show? More in particular Edgar, Judith, Penelope, and the show in general? I think there's a consensus that Darren will be nominated, so I'm curious about the others.

Mini series is never a tough Emmy category.

Miss Cody Fern's House of Cards villain role drops in August. There's a whole bunch of photos of him in 2015 with the West Hollywood gheys for Coming Out Day. Can't scrub them.

Is Cody considered a twink? A twink can't be 30, can they? His body ain't twinky.

Compared to most of DL, Mike Farrell is a twink.

Nice cakes.

How was Cody's body on ACS? I can't remember if we saw him shirtless, up close.

He has the body of what you expect when someone eats light but doesnt work out at all. Slim but soft with no muscle definition

Why did they obscure Cody’s ass shot in the shower? It looked pretty good from what we could see. I’m sure his twink bf gives him tips.

They showed Cody’s body in his first episode when Andrew does the killing right in front of him. They get in the shower together. Cody had two shower scenes in that episode. Amazing the difference in body types between him and his bear bro Jayden.

I'm sorry I try and I try, but I just could not feel good about Judith Light's performance. it was way too over the top. Too much muchness.

Judy Light is gonna win an Emmy for this role.

The only reason Criss will be nominated is because he was the star. Everyone acted circles around him. Max Greenfield deserves a nom. I really had to think of who he was in real life as I was watching his scenes.

Max was amazing! Cody and co, thanks to the way the show was shot, left their characters alive. They shot their characters’ deaths first. Judith, I agree, was too over-the-top, and I adore her. I thought she had Parkinson’s. All the shaking. It was too much.

Look. No individual Emmys for what amount to be cameos. Just nominate the whole ensemble and get over it.

Glad I'm not the only one who wasn't crazy about Judith. I think everyone was at the very least decent. But if only one actor could get an Emmy, I'd choose Jon Jon Briones.

Jon Jon was great, but if anyone gets an Emmy it'll be Darren Criss. and he earned it.

Edgar Ramirez and Penelope were excellent, and so were Jon Jon and Max Greenfield.

Can they nominate ensemble for a limited series?

[quote]Max was amazing! Cody and co, thanks to the way the show was shot, left their characters alive. They shot their characters’ deaths first

Max's character didn't die.

[quote]And Judith Light acted the shit out of them.

Yes, she doesn't have a subtle bone in her frail body.

Just now catching up on the show. Do we know who that hot bouncer was in Episode #1?

Did he have a line? I can't remember.

Is Edgar fat in real life?

R393 I was surprised to learn that the real Ronnie is still alive and living in Florida. Oddly no one has interviewed him about the show.

Is he still alive r398?

I remember Max Greenfield mentioned he had no idea whether Ronnie was still alive or not.

R399 Yes -- I was bored at the office the other day and decided to look him up (his last name is in the Orth book). I discovered that he's in his 60's and still living in the Miami area.

He's probably a DL'er.

The show is pushing Darren, Edgar, Penelope and Judith. They are all within the top 5 of their categories on Gold Derby, with Darren (#1), Edgar (#1), Penelope (she's waffling between #1 and #2), and Judith (#5). Cody's name is being submitted, although he's unfortunately not even close. Finn isn't being submitted by the network. It seems like FX though is using Cody to do some of the lower level campaign press this week, so I'm sure he will appreciate that good exposure.

Yeah Cody Fern has zero name recognition and didn't play a flashy character. He did a good job, but I don't see it happening for him.

Cody is talking to The Wrap this week.

So basically they’re giving Cody a consolation prize? That’s nice of them.

What self-respecting adult male goes by the name “Jon Jon?”

[R299], [R327]. You’re right, I’m just reading Orth’s book now and there are several quotes from people who knew him or had seen him around Hillcrest that said they found him unattractive. He was also quite overweight, before his rampage; people quoted in the book in San Fransisco said they didn’t recognize him because he looked so different & not in a good way with all the extra weight he gained.

How horrible.

hope its redone as a mini series in a few years

with more competent actors, cept for the divine Judith light, and edgar Ramirez..

Well, he was fat in gay eyes. So he was probably like 120 lbs.

Fat , not obese R410 !

According to a previous thread, Cody Fern is fat.

anyone else find mr criss hard to look at or accept in this role??

Mr Criss makes my peen hard. He is a hottie and will win an Emmy for this role.

As I re read the Orth book, she was quite careful in the book not to come right out and say Lee Miglin was a closet case. She mentioned he was wearing black bikini panties when his body was found.. They mention a few times that the killer was in the house "for some time." and they talk about there being no forced entry. Of course they also talk about Lee being seen in his garage doing something with the garage door open. His neighbors across the alley saw him out after Marilyn left town, but before Andrew arrived. There was also some very vague speculation that Andrew may have met Duke, Miglin's son. But nothing nearly as overt as what Ryan Murphy gave us with the TV series. He leaves no doubt.

Jeff, David, and Lee Miglin's families were so relieved that Andrew was dead. His Suicide ended it. No trial.

Just got my copy of Orth's book. Jesus Christ, it's 584 pages long! I sure hope it's well-written if I'm going to devote that much time to it.

R409, R413 Your obsession with a show and actor you hate is truly embarrassing. How many times will you say the same thing? Tragic.

Honestly I just ignored that poster. You will miss nothing of value, he is incredibly tiresome.

What's next for Darren besides marriage?

I hope Darren announces a new acting role soon.

I'd like to probe a little more. As I said, reading Orth she was very careful about Lee Miglin. But Murphy was not. He even had a scene with Lee and Andres at Norman's house party . Later there were some vague references to Andrew visiting Chicago or mentioning "people I know in Chicago" but nothing significant, and it seemed like only after Andrew was charged with Lee's murder did people from the San Diego/San Francisco days "recall" a mention of Chicago.

Do we know of any more substantial reports about how Andrew came to Lee's town house? I remember in Orth's account there was some speculation that it was random. A neighbor claims Lee was out in his garage working and he had the garage door open. So one theory was that Andrew was walking down the alley and saw an elderly man and just went for it. I personally don't subscribe to that. I think it's more likely it could have gone down the way Murphy portrays it.

I believe Andrew knew Miglin in a very superficial way. He'd met him at some social gathering, maybe from that fraternity, and looked into his background. Probably read about him in architecture Digest, or some business publication like Forbes. Then when he was on the run he called him from Minnesota, told him he had an emergency and need some money. OTOH, there was also a vague reference from Orth that someone said Andrew had met a guy named Duke from Chicago. Which of course Marilyn and Duke emphatically denied. Their position was this was a random crime by some sick spree killer. it's just a loose end that keeps bothering me. I'd like to hear what other s think or might know.

There was discussion about this if you go back in the threads, though I know that is easier said than done.

The short answer is we simply don't know. As you would've read, Orth tells one account of a couple that claims they saw Andrew and Duke together at the airport. The FBI got an account from a rentboy who said he got picked up by Lee and Andrew to have a threesome.

How did Andrew come to know the Miglins? Through Duke? Through Lee? If it was Lee, where did they first meet? It could be Gamma Mu, but it was never confirmed Lee Miglin was a member of Gammu Mu. These are all very good questions that we simply don't know the answer to.

That Andrew knew them is something no one really doubts, nothing about what happens fits with it being random. Andrew was parked outside of Miglins house in this specifical residential area for days (got a ticket Wednesday, Lee died Sunday), he went directly to Lee Miglin's street after he killed David (or was David with him at the time, that goes back to us not even knowing when David died).

Gamma Mu was something I felt should have been explored. It really explained why he had all of these connections in different cities and how he was able to break into circles so easily. He was one of the younger members, and therefore, pretty impressive. I get why they didn't add it - it almost seems like an entire subplot and with a mini-series, that is tough to do. I think a lot of Gamma Mu members knew important details about him but would not share, for fear of being outed. Again, would tie into the closeted storyline they ran throughout the series.

Norman could probably tell us if Andrew ever met Lee.

Agree, [R424]; those details would have added more clarity to the narrative....

Andrew's niece or nephew (Elena's child) has been posting on another forum. Elena "has strong feelings about Orth and believes she's an underhanded charlatan. Orth came to MaryAnn and stuck around her by pretending to have been a friend of Andrew's. MaryAnn later kicked her out after catching her scrawling down notes." About Andrew: "I guess one thing to offer would be that Andrew wasn't exactly the kind of superficial person the show, and Orth, make him out to be. His pursuits were, definitely. But he really was extremely intelligent and capable, not only faking it just well enough to slip past detection. That could have been what he thought about himself, something like a highly contrived impostor syndrome, but that's just raw conjecture. That he never truly applied himself to achieving excellence is a tragedy."

The fuck would his niece or nephew know about him. If their mom or dad talked about him they would probably lie instead of honestly speaking of their conniving, egotistical uncle.

R415 The story that Orth shares about the escort who had connected with Miglin and Cunanan on multiple occasions was verified by the FBI documents that were released in 2012 (I posted a link earlier in this thread).

IMO, after his son moved to California for college, Lee Miglin may have used the name "Duke" when interacting in the gay world. Why? If Lee gave someone his phone number and Marilyn answered the phone, she wouldn't interrogate her husband about who is this person, etc.

One thing that the Miglin family has done so well that it's almost scary is to silence both the Chicago Police and media about the death of Lee Miglin.

In 2014 after the FBI files were made public, the ABC affiliate reported the escort story which you can find by Googling "Andrew Cunanan killings: FBI documents released"

However, you'll notice in the attached video from May 2017, that Duke Miglin is not challenged with that info -- he denies that his father knew Cunanan and the FBI report is never mentioned.

[quote]One thing that the Miglin family has done so well that it's almost scary is to silence both the Chicago Police and media about the death of Lee Miglin.

It's the power of pheromones, darling!

Darren Criss shouldn't get the Emmy for this. He was good but not award worthy.

Well The Miglins new everybody who counted politically in Chicago and in the Catholic Church hierarchy. And Chicago is a very political town. As a major architect/real estate developer, Lee Miglin a Marilyn had that town wired. Reading Orth you saw how the Police Department even deferred to her.

Having read Orth's book, I would say it was extremely well researched. She definitely did her homework. Worthwhile if you're interested in a more complete factual picture. I read it after ACS aired. Anyone read Three Month Fever by Gary Indiana? I have read he uses a lot of conjecture and takes poetic license to fill in the blanks. Worth the read or no?

I have wondered the same thing, [R433].

Just to add to the others, I’ve read that FBI file and a woman who was interviewed by the FBI (name was redacted) insists she saw a picture of Lee and Andrew together at a party. She gave specific information about it (the picture was taken indoors, Lee had his arm around Andrew’s shoulder). She didn’t know who Lee was until his pictures aired on the news after his murder. Always wondered why that piece never came out.

There is no doubt in my mind that this was not random. The facts just don’t play into a random killing in such a tony neighborhood.

I think there’s no question that Criss gets nominated and to me, he is worthy of a win. He had a heavy lift and if he submits House by the Lake, Creator/Destroyer or Alone, he has a chance.

I'll be surprised if Criss isn't nominated. A win? He has a chance but it's not incredibly solid.

A photo of Andrew, fat, and with Norman.

R433 The Indiana book is well-written, but is heavy on poetic license and light on facts. I think that because I had read the Orth book I was disappointed by the Indiana book because his hypothetical scenarios did not mesh with the facts of the case. I often found myself thinking that if I were straight and clueless about various niche aspects of the gay world, Indiana's 'inside the mind of Cunanan' scenarios might have been enlightening. I probably would have appreciated the Indiana book much more if I had not read the Orth book first.

[quote]Just to add to the others, I’ve read that FBI file and a woman who was interviewed by the FBI (name was redacted) insists she saw a picture of Lee and Andrew together at a party. She gave specific information about it (the picture was taken indoors, Lee had his arm around Andrew’s shoulder). She didn’t know who Lee was until his pictures aired on the news after his murder. Always wondered why that piece never came out.

I'm guessing somehow Marylin Miglin somehow used influence over the FBI like she did with Chicago PD to keep that out of the public.

How come there’s no home video footage of Andrew out there to view?

Thank you R439.

Why was this scene so dark?

It wasn't just Marilyn who wanted things kept quiet. It was Lee Miglin's business partner too. There was a lot of money tied up and major development, etc and there's no way a scandal that projected an image of Lee as sleazy and corrupt via his association with Andrew, would work in Chicago. Too many powerful people were invested in keeping it quiet.

If I'm not mistaken, the report including interviews with various people on whether there was a relationship or any connections at all between Andrew in either Duke or Lee or both, those records were all sealed. I don't know whether it is even possible to get the unsealed or whether it matters now.

Why did Ryan and co move to obscure Cody Fern's butt cheeks? Did Darren have something in his contract where he would be the only one showing off his ass in this series constantly? Was he afraid of being upstaged?

[quote]Was he afraid of being upstaged?

Gurl, please. More like Cody Fern knew his ass wouldn't measure up.

Cody's cakes are just fine.

Ryan should make up for his crime by producing a new series starring Cody Fern, and making sure that there is at least one Cody Fern butt shot per episode.

Just don't let Cody's brother act as his butt double!

Hope Darren shows his ass again in whatever role he has next. That's why I want him to do another Murphy show.

Cody’s butt double.

Maybe Cody was a little uncomfortable so they filmed that shower scene in a way to cover his butt up more. Darren certainly was cool with flaunting his several times.

Oh, please, Cody has no clout. He knew what he was signing up for. I wonder if he’s blowing people for roles yet.

[quote] Cody Fern's boyfriend

Excuse me?? Where?

R445 cannot be bothered to read any posts other than the OP.

Welp, you cant expect me to read through 450 comments just to find it

His boyfriend is Eric Smith ya lazy bastard

R458 Wtf Cody is a top?! Lol thanks anyway 😘

[quote]Thank you [R439].

X2

You just saved me some money.

R459, what do you think?

Cody could do SO much better.

[quote]If I'm not mistaken, the report including interviews with various people on whether there was a relationship or any connections at all between Andrew in either Duke or Lee or both, those records were all sealed. I don't know whether it is even possible to get the unsealed or whether it matters now.

I don't think all the records are sealed. A poster upthread mentioned an FBI interview with a woman who had seen picture of Andrew and Lee together and IIRC, a rent boy told the FBI that he had threesome with Andrew and Lee.

It's unlikely that ACS:Katrina will be made. I'm curious if Murphy is looking into other stories for a season. Maybe the Lindbergh kidnapping or RFK assassination.

You’re right, R463. I’m the poster that mentioned it and, if you read the FBI files that have been linked in previous threads, it’s right there in black and white.

Marylin Miglin didn't have the kind of pull with the FBI that she did with the Chicago Police Department so the feds were able to release interviews/possible evidence about a link to Andrew and Lee.

I might be remembering it wrong but didn't one of the Miglin neighbors see Lee and a young man in baseball cap walking around the neighborhood.

Murphy needs to do a season around the Lana Turner, Cheryl Crane and Johnny Stompanato murder.

Lana attends the Oscars ceremony, with daughter Cheryl Crane, where she's nominated for Best Actress for Peyton Place, and a few hours later, Stompanato is lying dead on Lana's bedroom floor.

Who should play Lana, Cheryl and Stompanato?

Ooooh, *good one*, [R467]! There’s even a melodramatic trial in the story where Lana tearfully took the stand for hours (“giving the performance of her career” most in the press said).

That would be some juicy stuff and a great part for Murphy to cast (well the daughter of course, but especially *Lana*).

Who would be Ryan Murphy’s Lana Turner?

More Lana and daughter Cheryl at one of the most followed trials in American history...

Lana and Johnny. I hate to say it, but could Bobby Cannavale play him?

Lana was dickmatized. that's why she never had a lasting relationship with any important man. She was a slut, just like them!

He’s wearing Fred Mertz’s pants in R470’s pic.

How about January Jones as Lana?

Bobby Cannavale as Stompanado...

Emma Roberts as the murderous Cheryl Crane?

Donatella gave a new and very honest interview about her life (and of course ACS is discussed too)

Madonna or Gaga as Lana Turner.

The FBI interview that r435 refers to is with Andrew's sister Elena. This is through deductive reasoning because names are redacted, but she basically says 5 years prior to the murders, Mary Anne Cunanan showed Elena photos of Andrew with older men. She thought two of the photos showed an intoxicated Andrew with his arm around an intoxicated Lee Miglin. She never paid any attention to these photos until news reports showed the victims and she recognized Miglin.

R466 One of the issues that Orth details is that after the FBI became involved after the Miglin murder (1st murder in a State other than Minnesota) the Chicago PD was not providing information to the FBI in a timely manner. When Chisago attempted to get details about the Madson's Jeep from the Chicago PD, they basically refused for weeks. As a result of the Chicago PD withholding and delaying information, the FBI had to do a more thorough investigation into the Miglin murder.

You are correct about the neighbor seeing Miglin and Cunanan walking in the alley behind the Miglin house.

R478 Thanks for that info! If Andrew's sister is the source, I'm very skeptical of her claim. - How would she know that Miglin was drunk in the photo? - Given everything we know about Maryanne Cunanan and her relationship with Andrew, it's difficult to believe that Andrew gave her photos of himself to keep (much-less photos of him with his sugar-daddies.).

r479 I think it was more that Andrew left the photos at MaryAnnes after he moved out.

A lot of the FBI files are redacted but in some cases you can figure out who an interview is with - for example, at the link page 10 is his mother, 15 his sister, 17 is Lizzie Cote, 20 is Lizzie's husband, 97 is Norman Blachford...

R470/474 I'd watch that in a heartbeat--and hopefully RM would employ the flashback scenario so many here hated--the series would have to start with the murder to keep the audience interested. I'm sure fewer contemporary viewers know the Turner saga than the Versace one.

And I'm on board with January as Lana. If you think about it, there's more than a few similarities between the two in looks amd talent level. Plus we've already established that JJ's beauty is best showcased in the fashions of that era.

Let's hope RM reads DL!!!

Fat Andrew with Norman Blachford

R480 THANK YOU for the page number references for the FBI files.

I just finished reading all six threads of this topic and boy is their a ton of "Fake News" in your comments. YES, I am the real Greg Nelson. The story, the book and the movie are all major train wrecks of half truths, lies and misinformation. I am so tired of people writing things about me that they know nothing about. I take full responsibility of my irresponsible behavior towards David, however there are two sides to every story. My behavior was a direct result of the physical and psychology abuse I endured during my two year plus relationship with David. I was 18 when I first met David and started dating David when I was 20. David was the first person to tell me, "I LOVE YOU" For a 20 year old who had been fat most of his life, bullied during puberty, a victim of sexual abuse and a child of an alcoholic these were life changing words for me to hear. As David mapped out our life and purchased us rings, I fell head over heals in love with him. I felt 100% that he was the man I would spend the rest of my life with. Everything started out great until he revealed his dark sexual side to me. I was too green to understand what it all meant and I made a personal decision to take the good with the bad. What I failed to understand was how deep his dark side was. As time went on, the dark side took over the shining light of our relationship. David became more and more abusive and since I was not out at the time I had no-one to discuss what was happening in our relationship. When I did go to the police after having a board broken over my back they simple said, "Just go home and you two boys work it out" Remember this was 1996. My stalking behavior was driven by a naive attempt to receive an apology from David. What I failed to realize was that as long as I stayed angry at David, he still controlled me. If you talk to abuse counselors, you will learn that it is very common for abuse victims to have a difficult time letting go of anger towards their abuser. Both David and I are to blame for the path our relationship went down. I still feel shame about the abuse and what transpired as a result of my attempt to bring closure to all the pain David caused me. My behavior towards David was not acceptable and I take responsibility for my actions. However David was nothing like the guy in the book or movie. Yes he was charming, funny, kind, but he also was dark, cruel and selfish. The portrayal of David in the movie is about 25% accurate. To tell the complete story of David Mason would take hours to write. I just want people to think twice before they make statements about people they know nothing about. This nightmare of our relationship still haunts me today. I trust no one(not even my partner of 22 years), I suffer from extreme PTSD and in recovery from addiction issues. I have spent years in counseling to try and understand how I got myself into this dust cloud of chaos. The movie was difficult to watch and brought up a ton of old baggage. Reading the comments people have made is even more painful and frustrating. Almost everything that has been written about me is misinformation. There is no point in telling my side of the story since the damage to me has been done. It would have been nice if just one of these authors would have picked up the phone and done some fact checking with me. I am not a bad man, just a broken man. Finally I want to clarify a few issues, I never told anyone that David infected me with HIV. My HIV status is a private matter and should be kept that way. I did threatened to mail dark sexual pictures of David to his work after he lied about me in court, but never actually mailed them. I was just so angry with how David was continuing to take advantage of me and refusing to show any remorse for the abuse inflicted on me.. David did not deserve to die, but I am not surprised that his dark side is what led to his tragic death. Andrew contacted me twice to tell my that David was his now his property. That voice still haunts me today.

I’ll buy seven paragraphs, Pat.

Uh...

Marilyn knew Lee "struggled" and they had a chapel in their basement, I guess it was to "pray away the Gay."

R464, How about Natalie Wood's death and the events leading up to it? Olivia's case went bust, so could Wagner and/or Walken sue successfully?

R484 I have no way to know if you are the real Greg Nelson, or someone representing that point of view. But I do sympathize with the whole "two sides to every story" perspective. I'm sorry for your trouble, and struggle with mental health issues.

Emmys... Darren and Cody.

So now that season 4 ISN'T going to be about Clinton's blowjob, what should it be about?

The ratings on that would've been pretty damn big so I'm not sure what else is big enough to replace it.

Thanks for sharing your story with us Greg. I respect that you own up to the mistakes you made, it is nice to see.

And yes, as you would've seen we agreed with you that the show's portrayal of David Madson was laughably white-washed. They didn't portray any of his faults that are obvious just from reading Orth's book.

Interesting to hear that David's "dark sexual side" predates him meeting Andrew according to you.

Greg/ r484, do you think that David had direct involvement with Jeff Trail’s murder?

R484 Thank you for sharing your story.

Might you be so kind as to share your thoughts on one aspect of Madson's life that I've never understood which is his history of "dating" guys who lived far away?

For background, after [or during] his relationship with Cunanan (who lived in San Diego), Madson was in a [allegedly] serious relationship with Rob Davis (who lived in Washington DC).

Thoughts?

In reference to your beautifully written and informative story, do you think Edgar Ramirez is a top or a bottom?

Edgar, Bottom. Cody, Top. Ricky, Top

Gracias, R496

At best Ricky is vers or too kinky a person to limit himself to one role.

What about Darren? Bottom?

Yes, the post before was from the REAL Greg Nelson. David had an extremely dark sexual side when I met him. I am a pretty open minded gay guy when it comes to sex, but David's interests were borderline unhealthy. The letters I found that showed his responses to Gay S&M personal ads(way before the internet) were extremely intense. He spoke at length about being so into his Master that he would eat his shit, willing to be branded, pierced from head to toe etc. A year into our relationship I just wanted truth, not the lies upon lies which I would always catch David in. It was when I caught David in lies that the abuse started. I thought things might get better with David if I gave him my blessing to spend a few nights a month to play out his fantasies with a Professor at the U Of M, Dr Johnson. I asked to meet Dr Johnson and see his dungeon so that I knew where David was spending his time. To this day I have never seen a home like this. From piss showers to rooms of chains, cages, toys, gear, cameras etc. Dr Johnson was extremely intelligent and very intense. Dr Johsnon and David had a special bond. David was his SLAVE. He slept in a cage , was always naked, shaved from head to toe every time he arrived, came home in cock cages and chastity and that is the vanilla version. I thought so little of myself that I was willing to accept this in our relationship. As I said before, I am a fixer of people. SO to better understand what David desired, I called Dr Johnson privately and requested a session with him. I never told David this. Well I lasted about 90 minutes before getting so freaked out I had to leave. I drove home and cried myself to sleep. Once again I like guys who are sexually aware, however this was beyond aware it was dark in evil. There was talk for devil worship and other dark thoughts. David wanted to be completed dominated and even wrote about castration. Needless to say I was never going to fulfill his sexual needs. David suffered from a Madonna/Whore syndrome. David was attracted to me because one he thought my family had a ton of money and two, I played the role of the "Martha Stewart" husband. At the end of the day it was all about David's needs. He wanted NO ONE to find out about his dark sexual side side. I still have the sex photos and letters that David wrote, but I never sold them to the press. David said he want to spend the rest of his life with me. When I told David "I LOVED HIM" that meant I would take the good with the bad. When you don't love yourself and someone tells you they LOVE YOU, you will accept any behavior. I should of left at year one, but when one does not love themselves they settle for pretty shitty standards.

Did Maureen Orth reach out to you when she wrote her book?

What did you know about David and Andrew's relationship? Did the show get Andrew right?

I am still angry that Maureen never picked up the phone and attempted to verify her facts about me. When Vulgar Favors was published I was devastated about what was written about me. In one article she stated I went into a downward spiral when my mother committed suicide. I was beside myself with that claim. My mother died of a heart attack which can fact checker could see on her public record death certificate. I did call her about after I read that and told her that if my niece or nephew every read that article and ask me if Grandma killed herself, that I would bring them to her front door so that she could look them and the eye and explain how my mother killed herself. That is also when I learned suing for libel is next to impossible unless you are knee deep in money. We literally live less than 2 miles from each other in DC. I have a been at a couple of social events that she also attended. I was very tempted to go up and introduce myself. However, you are in a no win battle once a label is placed on you. She could easily turn me introducing myself to her into "I FELT THE EYES OF "THE STALKER" ACROSS THE ROOM, I KNEW SOMETHING WAS AMISS HOWEVER I COULD NOT PUT MY FINGER ON IT. IT WAS ALMOST LIKE I COULD HEAR DAVID TALKING TO ME FROM THE GRAVE....

No I don't think David killed Jeff.Does anyone know if David really met Jeff at the front door.? David always buzzed people into the building. If Jeff was buzzed into the building my theory is that David was in a major form of bondage when Jeff entered into the loft. I think David witness the whole murder but was in a form of bondage that prevented him from doing anything. Once Jeff was killed they wrapped him in my grandmother's antique rug. David knew that he was more than likely going to be implicated in the murder. David was using steroids, the murder took place in his apartment and how could he explain the reasons of being in bondage to a jury. David knew that all of his dark secrets would not play well with the press, his family, friends, the police or a jury. Itbreaks my heart that poor PRINTS(Our dog) lived in that terrible atmosphere for 72 hours. The whole theory of David being paralyzed from fear is such BS. Everyone in the neighborhood knew Prints and David. David was not scared of anyone. After the murder he ate at a restaurant where everyone knew him by name. Who the hell does that when a dead body is in your loft. You can't tell me that he had no opportunity to break away or get help. David was covering his own ass and knew that he was going to be exposed if he went to the police. David wanted NO PERSON to know about his DARK SIDE. It would of been a media circus and the double life that he lived would be exposed. I think he knew based on the evidence that he would more than likely be charged with Jeff's murder.

[quote]Does anyone know if David really met Jeff at the front door.?

We have no idea. The show freely admits that was just a decision that they made to have David present when Jeff was killed. Maureen Orth made clear she was never able to figure out if David would have been present or not.

You might be referring to another article that Maureen Orth wrote for Vanity Fair at the time, but in the book she makes no claims about your Mother. So this isn't a story that is going to spread, personally I had never heard that before you said so and I've read a lot about this case. If that makes you feel better.

I will say if David was really that secretly kinky, it helps explain why he put up with Andrew for so long. Andrew was also into really rough and violent S&M, it fits that David was not a lamb being drawn into that world by Andrew, but that this was his thing too.

Thank you, that makes me feel better. I really thought all of this was behind me until this movie was produced. I think maybe the comment was in the Vanity Fair article written before the book was published., I also need to go back to Gary Indiana's book and review where I am referenced.. I have a box f notes some place in the basement. I am 100% the suicide comment was made, I just now need to verify my source, Another thing I find strange is that I do not have one picture of David and me together. How does one have a two year plus relationship and have no photos.I know we had a ton of pictures but I think I left them all behind in the move. I don't even have a single picture of David. For a so called stalker you would think I would have a box full of memories. Unfortunately the only pictures I have are negatives of David that were sent to me by his Master Dr Johnson. The pictures show David tied to a toilet, no hair on his body, in full bondage and red marks all over his body. David was furious I had those negatives and he wanted to do everything in his power to discredit me. I would never release those negatives to anyone. Two publications offered me a ton of money ti sell them however at the end of the day I guess my love for David was genuine because I just could not be that hateful.

There seemed to be very few pictures of David period, I think I've only seen like three in the media. And I actually never saw a picture of a young you, only current ones.

just curious, is my name out there very much? Where did you see pics? No big deal just curious.

Honestly Maureen described you as handsome in the book, so I was googling around for a pic and I found this interview you did recently. I was happy to see you seemed to have turn your life around and was doing well.

In my part of adding to this enlightening conversation: Ricky - top; Cody - top; Edgar - bottom; Darren - vers.

Man, this is a great thread! Thank you DL and thank you Greg for being so open about everything.

Everyone of us has made mistakes in life and in relationships; no judgement here.

Thank you very much for your posts.

I think that it was obvious that you loved David but that you and he were both young and complicated people—and the relationship itself was likely confusing, complicated, and unhealthy in several ways...

It happens.

Kudos to you for having the courage to move forward from a very challenging situation and to put your focus on becoming the best and healthiest person you can be. God Bless you and all that. Really.

Grateful again for your input and wishing you and your family the very best in the present and future! :)

P.S. Greg—if you have any additional information, insight, or input about Andrew C. (even just personal thoughts), I’d appreciate hearing it.

I felt like there was more to know about him (and who he was/his actions and motives) than what was featured in the show and would appreciate anything you’d have to add about him (again, even just personal opinions...)

Thank you again.

R508

Why David's master send you this picture? To gloat? It sounds fucked up. I am usually very liberal about people's sexual kinks. If David was into BDSM, it doesnt mean he was a bad person and deserved to be killed. But anyway, thank you for your input. It was fascinating to read.

Greg, thank you for posting. I believe you but a couple of things:

- the general consensus and (I believe) the police report is that the buzzer to David’s apartment either was never set up or didn’t work. Someone had to have gone down to let Jeff in.

- I’ve never heard that David ate at a restaurant where everyone knew him by name after the murder. There was a possible sighting of them at a restaurant near where David was killed, but that was debunked by Orth and law enforcement. Can you give more details on this?

So Cody Fern should have been tied up in this thing.

I get why they didnt want to go into the BDSM for this show. Maybe they felt it wasn't that important even though it was a sizable part of some of these men's sexual lives.

[quote]I should of left at year one,

Oh, dear.

[quote]It would of been a media circus

Oh, dear dear dear.

Dear R512, which ones on your list have topped Edgar? He seems like a power bottom.

i said this already and i repeat it now: they knew very well but chose not to show all the "dark side sexuality" and drugs so beloved by Cunanan and David (and probably other main characters in this saga) because they didn't want to confirm every bigot's bias about gay men: that they are "depraved" and utterly promiscuous. Murphy would've never done that. Not to mention the fact that you need "heroes" along with villains for a story to work, dramatically. Especially if it's a tv story.

Then it’s not a true story. It’s fiction, r521.

Well it is fiction r522, it is a TV show.

All these things are *based on*/*inspired by* a true story. A drama is not a documentary

^of course it's fiction, R522. That's why it's called "drama" and not documentary. (and documentary can of course be manipulated anyway too)

R523 There are so many people whose entire knowledge of the OJ and Cunanan sagas is solely based on American Crime Story.

The show has made a Google Image search for OJ Simpson or Andrew Cunanan somewhat surreal, creepy and troubling as nearly half of the results for OJ and almost all of the results for Cunanan are of scenes and actor portrayals in American Crime Story. If Google is going to place labels on "news" articles, it would probably be a good idea to label the image results as "fictional portrayal" or "non-historical."

How the fuck are they supposed to do that, r525. Do you understand how search engines work?? You think Google handpicks images??

R521 One of the most messed up and offensive things Murphy & Co did was to erase Jeff Trail's boyfriend, Jon Hackett, from history and replaced him with Jeff Trail's sister. Considering all of Murphy's babble about the social importance of this show and the truths it would reveal about gay life in the 1990's, erasing Jon Hackett from history proved that Murphy's words were empty.

Yes,the impact that meth & coke had on Cunanan's life [and body] was not accurately portrayed; but I was surprised that they did include it in multiple scenes.

David Madson and Jeff Trail were portrayed as pure as the driven snow. Completely inaccurate portrayals -- hell, no one is as pure as the dead are portrayed in American media.

R526 I'm sure they can figure it out... I'm not demanding that it should be done, just suggesting that it would benefit one's understanding of actual history if they did.

Wow, Twitter is a scary place. I saw some girl say that Chris Colfer should have played Andrew because he's "more believable as good looking." Um....what? Someone else thought Santo was Donatella's husband. And then another though the storyline was "too gay" for a true crime story...

I mean you can always find some crazy people out there who say stupid stuff about anything if you go look for it r529. Now in the social media era, everybody has a platform.

R529 That was probably one of those delusional Chris Colfer idiot fangirls. I don't think Colfer is on good terms with Ryan Murphy.

The Colfer fangirls are probably depressed as Colfer's career as taken a dive and some of the projects that he had announced are in development hell.

[quote]I don't think Colfer is on good terms with Ryan Murphy.

Ryan Murphy freely admits "Glee" was a clusterfuck and he is only on good terms with three people from the show. Lea Michele, Darren Criss, Chord Overstreet.

R531 Oh wow, ok, that makes total sense. I did a double take because I haven't heard shit from him after Glee. I can't even imagine him in anything else. I never finished the series, so it's ending seems like a lifetime ago. From a show like Glee, there's usually only one or two careers that survive it. I'm looking at IMDB and it shows that Chris was the lead? I always though it was Jane Lynch or Lea Michele. So strange.

Well even in her book, Orth seems to want to paint David as some one who may have "flirted " with bondage scenarios or dropped in to a S&M place, leather bar, etc. but more out of curiosity than to participate. In fact she seems to emphasize his family's point of view, and the opinions of neighbors and coworkers who talked about what a charming sweet, kind person he was. So David=Good guy, Andrew= Monster. The contrast was very obvious and Orth clearly subscribed to David's family's viewpoint that he would never be into S&M and couldn't hurt a flea. So yes, the dramatic license in the TV show, and the one sided, inaccurate portrayal in David's case, were feeding off Orth to some extent. And the scene in the fancy hotel room where they were eating lobster and David didn't want to get in to all this lluxury and lies, and he did the whole "just tell me about you, Andrew" according to Orth, David did like luxury, too and enjoyed the gifts Andrew gave him.

R533 Colfer was supposed to play Noel Coward for a biopic. He said that because of Brexit, funding for the movie was lost. I recall sometime after Glee there was some article that he was developing a drama pilot. During Glee it was said that he was working on several screenplays and one point he had sold a pilot to Disney Channel. A lot of TV pilots never get filmed and get completely dropped by production companies, studios, and networks.

Colfer is still working on the YA novel series and he released a novel about an actor last year. It will be interesting to see if he ever gets another screenplay produced or gets a TV show he created on air. IIRC, Colfer's movie Struck by Lightening was mostly panned by critics. I saw once and thought it was ok, but not as good as the Colfer fangirls made it out to be.

Thanks for the update, R535. Just another failed Glee career. If you don't have one thing actually in production post-Glee at this point, it's probably time to throw in the towel. I think Lea could survive on Broadway, if anyone wants to even work with her. Though her and Darren are in a whole other ballpark in comparison to the rest of that cast. Well, at least Darren.

Colfer was in the Ab Fab movie.

[quote]Wow, Twitter is a scary place. I saw some girl say that Chris Colfer should have played Andrew because he's "more believable as good looking."

Never happened.

[quote] Just another failed Glee career. If you don't have one thing actually in production post-Glee at this point, it's probably time to throw in the towel.

The failure laments are a bit premature. The first thing he did after winning the Globe was to get a book deal for the fantasy series, which turned into a commercial hit for him. He'll probably milk it even more, if he manages to get the movie deal off the ground.

A couple years back Criss got a producer deal for a TV pilot but no sight of it yet. A romcom he did after Glee got into some festivals and that was it, unless he gets the Emmy nom. He's also making a final push to become the next Nick Jonas which isn't happening, hence buying himself a "piano bar", and teaming up with Lea Michele to get into larger venues.

Entertainment careers are a crapshoot. No one ever thought Jared Leto will one day get an Oscar.

[quote]Thanks for the update, [R535]. Just another failed Glee career. If you don't have one thing actually in production post-Glee at this point, it's probably time to throw in the towel.

Are you one of those idiots that think if you don't have a movie opening every week you don't have a career. It's not a secret that Colfer is not concentrating on being in front of the camera. He is a New York Times best selling author and all his books have been translated all over the world. Currently he is working on the screenplay for the film version of his first "Land Of Stories" book which 20th Century Fox green lit and he will direct.

lmao.

Look up any of Glee threads and take the discussion of that cast and their fcray fangirls tweets there.

19:44 for video footage of David and audio. Literally half a second.

To cleanse the Chris Colfer fangurls from the thread...little clip of Jeff, 16:07.

Nice find r542. Amazing to finally hear David Madson's voice.

Chris Colfer looks nothing like Cunanan. The twitter fangirl probably didn't know Colfer and RM aren't on good terms.

If Colfer is working on a behind the camera career good for him. I really didn't think he was that great of an actor on Glee.

Colfer is not as fey in person. He's not particularly good looking though. He looks like someone who works the Men's floor at Saks or Bloomingdales.

It's old ladies like R519 who keep real gossip away from DL. Tiresome cunts.

Anyway, I remember an interview, I posted it here in one of these threads. One of their rules with this series is never to portray the victims in a negative light, they didn't want to do damage to these people's memories. A lot of their decisions, especially in regards to David, make sense if you remember that.

[quote]The twitter fangirl probably didn't know Colfer and RM aren't on good terms.

No, they know. This tweet story is a wank.

Back to your scheduled programming.

I'm pretty sure RM isn't the only reason Colfer ain't working. It's just one of many.

The cleanse didn't work on the Colfer hags though.

Anyways. R548, I think that makes sense. Especially non-famous victims that didn't live their lives for public consumption. I respect that about the franchise in general.

Ricky Martin is at The Hollywood Reporter's Emmy photoshoot for supporting actor potential nominees. There are 30 of them, and I didn't see Edgar. He should be there.

[quote]I'm pretty sure RM isn't the only reason Colfer ain't working.

On cue, the "if it ain't acting, it ain't work" troll.

[quote]He looks like someone who works the Men's floor at Saks or Bloomingdales.

He looks like someone who works the Men's ROOM at Saks or Bloomingdales.

Did Trail or Madson's friends or families release any response to ACS?

Was Cody at the Emmy thing with Ricky?

Superb series. Bouquets and awards all around - save Ricky Martin.

R555 No - Ricky was the only one from ACS.

Nobody gives a shit about this anymore. Not until nominations anyway.

^ Well no shit. It's over and the only people who really cared about this season were Darren Criss fans. Nobody cares about Versace and it's following one of the best seasons of TV in recent memory so this season will always been followed up with "...but it's not as good as OJ's season".

When award season comes around and season 3 starts happening then this season will get more attention.

Here's some deleted scenes if nobody has seen them yet.

This season was meant to have one more episode so I guess some of these would've been in that one.

Nah, that’s just Edgar candid.

Cody with his son.

Edgar does quite a bit of twirling in his private life!

Andrew Cunanan’s murder spree kicked off 21 years ago today with the bludgeoning of Jeff Trail.

I just finished Orth’s book and mostly enjoyed it. She hints that Lee Miglin’s gay son Duke knew Andrew. And she writes that Antonio didn’t fare as badly as was shown on the show. Versace left him $30,000 a month, to be adjusted for inflation, plus the right to live in any of the Versace homes. Antonio declined the latter. The whole houseboat/gay sex club owner/mafia connection is one of the biggest questions about the case that the authorities chose not to pursue. Oh, and I can’t believe that no one told Orth to remove one comment on page two of her book. That’s when a young man (possibly Andrew) called her while she was writing about the case for Vanity Fair before Andrew killed himself. In the book she describes the caller as a “gay male voice.” Um, would that be like Paul Lynde or Rip Taylor or Charles Nelson Reilly, Maureen?

I was surprised when I read Orth's book, that according to her Gianni Versace was not as well known before his murder. He certainly wasn't a household name back then, and they were not nearly as profitable either. It wasn't a major fashion house by any stretch. A lot of people thought his taste was garish and vulgar, and he designed for prostitutes and drug dealers.

Whereas it was indeed considered a bit garish and vulgar, adored by soccer players and pop stars and so on, Versace was one of the most reputed and well-known fashion houses in the world, at least in Europe.

True R567, but apparently not nearly as well known to the FBI agents and the police in Illinois and Minnesota. Even Orth seemed surprised at that.

Madonna - the biggest star on earth in the mid 90s - was in Versace ads. Versace was already a global name before Gianni's death.

R568 White trash and stuffy old white men wouldn't know fashion that's popular among big stars at the time?

No way.

Versace = Eurotrash

Some Darren fans are pretty salty that Edgar and Ricky aren't kissing Darren's ass now that the show is over and they aren't doing promo, lol.

Nice Cody interview. Talks about footage he saw of Andrew and David holding hands on the run.

I don’t think he saw the footage. He’s talking about the footage that was in evidence and written about.

My god, Cody goes totally flamer at the end of the interview. lmao.

I wonder how big Cody’s cock is.

He better wear a condom when plowing that dirty twink.

Someone has footage of the real Andrew and David holding hands while on the run?

So he meant there is footage in the show of them holding hands on the run and references a witness account that said the same thing. Per Vulgar Favors that witness account is shaky at best.

Yeah Maureen very much doubts the official narrative of Andrew/David, she thinks he died days earlier.

Cody mentions that he, Darren and Finn are great friends. Interesting group.

Right, such good friends that they don't even follow him on Instagram. lol.

They only say they're friends so Darren's fangirls will keep talking about them and the show. They and the 50 year old men here who like Cody are the only ones who keep talking about the show.

Which is normal for a show that's not on the air any more and for people who are not working together any more (I don't talk every day to my old co-workers that I used to get along with and go out drinking with every Friday, doesn't mean I don't like them). Still hoping for some Emmy recognition and there'll be more talking then. I keep stalking this thread for those who are reading the book and keep posting interesting stuff.

I'm watching Cody's interview now, and it is so hard for me to reconcile this thoughtful, well-spoken guy with being the same guy in a relationship with some basic bitch who only wants to talk about his (not even impressive) ass.

Would you consider Cody actually hot or average? I go back and forth. I can't really decide. His accent may bump him up a notch, but sometimes he looks sort of meh. Nothing to write home about. He'd get lost in a crowd. He'd be classified as "cute" but not Hollywood good looks.

Darren was nominated for an MTV award for ACS.

Short clips of Pete & Mary Ann talking with Larry King about their prince Andrew.

LMAO. His father is such a mess.

They both seem pretty gross and out of touch with reality to me.

Modesto appears exactly as he was so well-portrayed in the mini series- as a smarmy, lying conartist. Maryann seems like a serious whackjob.

Not making excuses at all. Plenty of people have fucked up parents/childhoods and manage to not become entitled, self-important, narcissistic psychopaths who go on killing sprees.

....

So does Cody shave it all off, or did one brother inherit hair and the other didn't?

Vulture names The Assassination of Gianni Versace: American Crime Story one of the best shows of 2018 (so far).

A new Darren Criss ass. There can never be enough.

[quote]Would you consider Cody actually hot or average?

He is good looking guy, but wouldn't be considered a hottie.

There are strong rumors that some (if not all) of the Versace cast will be at the Met Gala tonight. Donatella is one of the hosts, which makes this interesting.

Cute Judith and Darren interaction at some event.

I would be surprised as Donatella was furious about the show and she is a sponsor. She might just want to berate them in person!

Donatella doesn't really have a problem with the show r597, Penelope knows her and she reached out and got her blessing.

She'd probably be more upset if Maya Rudolph were attending.

Jon Jon Briones is going to be in "Sweet Charity" in LA.