American Crime Story: Versace Thread 5

online it says matt bomer directed the next episode, 8

yay

bet he a gr8 director

eager to see him in Boys in band.

ok, bak to Versace after this last foto

what is the point exactly of doing the thing backwards???

It's been a great show, not amazing but maybe i had too high of expectations. Still excited to see how it finishes.

Donatella was the smart one, it seems.

That David was adorable, talking about the girl from high school.

That "no Asians" stuff from the escort agency owner was rough but brutally honest.

Yeah that scene was pretty good. I wondered why she didn't just take his pic and put it on that board in the background. Apparently all these older guys found him attractive.... so how would it hurt her just to put up his pic and see what happened?

....because he was TOO desperate. You want someone who will turn tricks and be in demand....not someone looking to latch onto a rich client so you are cut out of the $$$$ and lose a high end client to boot.

Oh, she could tell he was using it to find a sugar daddy... interesting, I didn't pick up on that in the scene with her yelling ASIAN! every second, but that makes sense.

This show is a bore.

Uh oh. Now they the Bachelor season has ended, Versace has some new viewers.

Thanks for starting a new thread.

It's not boring to me. It's just not pushing this story as far as it could go.

When he said ,” Keep the change “ after buying the glass of red wine, how much did he tip? Norman noticed. I couldn’t see how much money he put down.

probably a 20.....remember, this was mid 90s......the wine was probably 2 or 3 bucks.

I've been enjoying Darren in this show, but I'm extremely curious where his career will go from here. His successful roles have all been queer ones. Will he continue with these roles, or will he finally play a straight role (other than the one he plays in his personal life)?

R17 I'd bet Murphy uses him for one of his other shows. Maybe Horror Story? I know he guested on Hotel, but I imagine he'd play a bigger part after starring in Versace.

I wonder if he'll purposefully do a couple straight roles next since all of his most famous roles have been gay guys.

Only two more episodes. I'm looking foward to the last one- what he does after he killed Versace.

This hasn't been my favorite series, but I'm glad I've stuck with it.

A lot of the older fraus tuned out after the MM episode.....you dont take on one of their idols and not expect a backlash.....i mean. to perpetrate those lies against such an upstanding hetro male.

I'm sure he'll work with Murphy again (especially since Murphy got that huge Netflix deal), but I wonder if he wouldn't want to branch out and work with someone else so he doesn't keep looking like Murphy's pet. I will say that people like Sarah Paulson have done really well sticking with Murphy, so what do I know?

^^^^perpetuate^^^^

The episode was good enough but I still can't deal with mushmouth Donatella

Poor Ricky spends most of his scenes leaning against furniture.

I thought a few episodes ago, when Jeff met Andrew for the first time at the bar, Andrew was already a “kept boy” as he appeared haughty and very self-confident. In last night’s episode, he was still working at the drugstore, hating his life, and he and Jeff were already good friends at the bar. Sloppy editing.

[quote]A lot of the older fraus tuned out after the MM episode

MM?

R17 If he gets the emmy (lol) then he'll probably be able to find a show outside of Murphy's work. But if Murphy pays him good enough I can see him sticking around a la Sarah Paulson due to the netflix deal.. No way Murphy wouldn't cast Criss as a lead in something there.

was the after-opera dinner with the three old gentlemen hinting at the closeted gay "fraternity" Gamma Mu? I read about it here. But the words "Gamma Mu" were never uttered.

I think Penelope Cruz is one of the strongest things in the whole series, and I would like her to win some award recognition.

r27.....Marilyn Miglin

I'm surprised by Cruz's performance in this project. Quite good so a spporting Emmy nod wouldn't come as a great surprise.

So is Cody Fern really gay?

Where did all his money come from? I would have thought credit card companies would have cut him off.

I'm sure Donatella Versace is secretly loving the show: last night episode portrayed her as smart, glamorous, compassionate angel of fashion.

R35 She's probably not watching. At best she's having a minion watch for her.

The depictions of the gay bars are terrible; they all look like tacky lunch counters with the lights turned off. The Mandarin hotel room was beautiful (esp that bathroom!) and I like Versace's studio as well.

And what was up with that creepy old guy at the end of the bar who approaches him at closing time? Is he supposed to represent the dismal future of all gay men?

Google search of Norman Blachford turned up an interesting article from TIME magazine from 2001 called DEAD MEN TELL NO TALES. (I tried but failed to link it, but it is worth reading); among other details it says that the FBI notified Sylvester Stallone that Cunanan had been asking bartenders about his and Madonna's habits in Miami. Also that Cunanan had some kind of fantasy about killing Nicole Kidman. And evidently there was some relief among certain parties after Cunanan's death, so he couldn't name names.

The whole story is so creepy; all that loss of life, and so grotesquely, in such a short time.

While it's likely true that clients aren't requesting many Asian escorts, he didn't look it. The madam didn't know until he told her.

[quote]It was apparently inspired by a passage in Truman Capote's Answered Prayers, where the male protagonist went to a cold-assed blonde woman who ran an escort agency, The Self Service.

That's why I love DL. You bitches have seen every film and read every book and get all the references.

That wasn't the opera, they were at the La Jolla playhouse. Which in real life is three boring university buildings.

Who played the madam? She looked and sounded very familiar.

SO MUCH OF THE SHOW IS NOT TRUE, ITS HARD TO TAKE ANY OF IT SERIOUSLY

LUV EDGAR AS VERSACE, HE ACTS THE PANTS OFF CRISS AND ALL OF EM.

SEEMS LIKE CRISS IS IN SOME OTHER MOVIE....GLEE GOES LOCO. ?

I never heard of Criss before this show so to me his performance seems good - tonight it was almost sympathetic. I actually lost interest in the Versace storyline by this point. Just how looney was Cunanan’s mother?

The actress playing his mother is horrible. I’m sure the real mother was a bit off herself but the portrayal on the show makes her seem highly retarded.

The actress who plays the mother is channeling some unholy hybrid of Blanche DuBos and Beth Howland.

Gianni didn't have ear cancer-- he was following a watermelon diet.

Is it true that NBC is planning a live musical version for its annual holiday treat? Working title is "Bloody, Bloody Andrew Cunanan."

[quote]The actress playing his mother is horrible. I’m sure the real mother was a bit off herself but the portrayal on the show makes her seem highly retarded.

I agree, her scenes are cringe worthy. Cunanan's real mother was mentally ill and was unable to work and collected SSDI. Orth's book and articles by other journalists describe her as being awkward and she was one of Andrew's enablers since his childhood. The linked article from a neighbor of the mother's is quite sad as people knew or suspected Andrew was abusing his mentally ill mother. I do wonder if a neighbor or family friend could have contacted police and adult protective services due to the mother not being all there mentally.

The mother is definitely weird and super spacey.

Marilyn Miglin, being the die hard salesbitch that she is, must be thrilled with all the free publicity that her products got with this show.

r40 Molly Price from Third Watch.

miglin is my fave character, she and her rich ass closet hubby.

I alwys check out HSN to see if she on, so old now she cums on wid her daughter, but she do most o da talkin. BAK AT WORK IN 2 WEEKS AFTER HER MAN WAS MURDERED. ATTA GAL.

In the first episode of the show i'm pretty sure i saw that guy who was on Mad Men playing Rizzo, the hot bear. He played a detective in Miami i think. He was basically an extra!!

The Miami detectives will likely be back in the last episode and maybe this next one.

I’ve been thinking a lot about the method of telling the story - this backwards format. The next episode is supposed to go more into Andrew’s troubled relationship with his father.

I believe the though process was that if the story was told in a linear fashion one might feel some sort of sympathy for Andrew - especially those who don’t really remember when the events took place. A difficult relationship with his father, a mentally imbalanced mother etc. might build sympathy for a person who deserves none.

Showing the horror of Andrew’s actions first doesn’t really allow a viewer to find him relatable at all. You can still see the causes but it takes away any chance of the audience finding him sympathetic.

There is a musical of Andrew called "Disposable" and it debuted at the La Jolla playhouse. Where else?

A few episodes back Donatella was worried that Gianni's coming out in the magazine would make the famous people stop buying/wearing his clothes. (and he said 'at least we'll still have Elton' haha). Did that ever happen? Was his brand damaged by publicly stating he was gay? I wouldn't think so, but was it?

And was it Perry Ellis she said lost business b/c people found out he was gay?

R56 In real life that interview didn't get a whole lot of attention, so I don't think the brand really suffered. I mean most of the people who knew anything about Versace knew he was probably gay. Perry Ellis company fell apart after he died of AIDS, it is true he was visibly sick towards the end of his life. AIDS could have had an effect on the brand, however many fashion labels fall apart when their namesake designer dies, they are usually bought up by portfolio company's and lose their luxury appeal.

1990s or not, absolutely nobody thought male fashion designers were anything other than the gayest of gay.

Donatella must have been tripping! It must have been an Italy thing

I think it's easy to forget that in the 1990s, we still didn't have the internet! (It was only getting started then.) News only traveled through TV, radio, and print media. We were only starting to have a 24/7 news cycle back the, and it was only on cable news. So the news of Versace's coming out would not have gotten to many people, and not as quickly as it does now.

R54 Well, maybe that's a good thing. Mindhunter did it better of course, but I know in that show they were deliberately trying not to glamorize the killers, but rather portray them as the fucked up individuals they were.

I mean, a tragic past "explains" but does not justify these people's actions. So maybe it's good we're not feeling sympathy for Andrew, much as we're explained why he was so messed up.

I like that they're trying to make us feel more for his victims than for him (even if they may portray them as better people than they were; no one is without flaws, anyway).

By this point I do get how he came to have friends and lovers and people who liked him, at least. And though he may have some relatable qualities, I don't feel sorry him and perhaps no one should.

No matter how many episodes we’ll never have a plausible reason why he did it, other than possibly roid rage. That missing gap may be why the viewership isn’t as great as expected.

Do you thing Andrew got the idea how to off Jeff by witnessing the Ep. 6 murder?

think^^

Any video of Perry Ellis being helped on stage?

Here's an actual photo from 1975 of Andrew's mother and siblings. I don't know who the tall gentleman on the right is? An uncle? That's certainly not his father.

That's his father.

It is, R66? That looks like a completely different person from this photo of his father?

Older brother not his father?

I actually like the nervous, flighty actress very much who plays Andrew's mother. She had a horrible life, but I am so glad she was not killed by her son.

While the murder did occur there is no proof that Andrew witnessed it. I have been in and out of these threads so I am not sure if it’s been mentioned before but after each episode Vulture.com has been going over each episode and detailing what was fact and what was a construct of the drama narrative. I have found them interesting and helpful.

So if Vogue was having its 100th anniversary in the '90s, that means they started in the 19th century? What did they write about back then? The latest in bustle design? Lace-up corsets? Whether good girls showed ankle?

Hee Hee!!!

MAJOR FLUB THAT ITS TOLD IN REVERSE

MAYBE WHY ITS TO BEHIND THE ALIENIST IN RATINGS

R73 Flub? Shut up about the Alienist already.

I think Criss is doing a good job. Who else could have done it? He's perfect. Like someone else, so much is made up i can't take it seriously. I'm looking at it as a fiction gay horror movie.

More realistically, it looks like Andrew's mother should have been played by Kathy Nijimy.

I agree, R76. I love Kathy. They should throw her some work here and there, and she would be right in her element as some frumpy Italian housefrau.

[quote] I don't know who the tall gentleman on the right is

Tall? He's about the same height as the mother.

brent Corrigan coulda done it better dats who

Please forgive me. I have dvr'd the entire series so far, but have yet to start watching. My experience with most of these is that they start great, then peter out by the end making me feel I've wasted 13 hours of time. The OJ Simpson series was an exception. And Feud was definitely worth it!

So if anybody cares to comment for me at this point, is this worth watching? (going thru this thread I'm thinking it's not and on the verge of erasing what's in my queue).

Thanks DL.

It is worth watching. I look forward to a new episode every week.

Michael Nouri is a hot granddad

play it backwards cause the way they done did it aint workin.

I like it more than OJ and almost as much as Feud.

Never go for trade

The guy that plays David is sexy as hell. Gay?

Jeff and David were better looking IRL

"Molly Price from Third Watch."

She was also in Feud (the director's wife) and The Knick (where she played the society wife of the grifting hospital administrator).

I hope she becomes a Murphy regular.

R80, how lazy are you?

You don’t want to watch an episode to check it out and you don’t want to read this thread. Jesus Christ.

Take 2 hours out of your fucking life, watch a couple episodes, and make up your own mind about continuing.

So next week is essentially about Cunanan's childhood and then the last episode is about the manhunt after he kills Versace, right?

Honestly, the biggest failure of the series (for me) is their rather desperate attempt to keep the Versace story going in a parallel track. The thematic connection to Cunanan's arc is tenuous at best. They should have just owned up to the fact that they were doing a mini-series about Cunanan. (Which, I suppose, would have been commercial suicide, but at least it would have made more artistic sense.)

[quote]While the murder did occur there is no proof that Andrew witnessed it.

I would not be surprised if he was the perpetrator.

That kind of brutal, repeated attack to the face is fairly rare. And he was the one who "discovered" the body.

I thought this was a dullest episode so far.

Apparently, the ice cream tantrum did happen. But while the mother had a friend over for dinner -- and Andrew threw the tub at her head, not the floor.

I was surprised by Andrew being so overt in demanding a price list up front. I thought he would be more coy at working a client, making them think it was real is part of the job.

r51, What's with the puerile patois?

For an episode about someone becoming an escort it was a bit dry and dull.

I found the Versace bits completely gratuitous.

It's like a mashup of two unrelated shows.

Cunanun had no real connection to Versace. What happened in Milan years before he was killed has NOTHING to do with the story.

And I don't think Donatella would be happy with the depiction. Yes, she is shown as a shrewd businesswoman, but it also makes her look as if she had no creative abilities. And in fashion, that is important.

Darren Criss & Cody Fern

Another

Another

R96 and R97 are secret shots from before the cameras started rolling.

"Artistic" mirror shot.

Ok, last one

I wonder why they picked Cody Fern for this. He's so twinky by comparison. He gives off a really young vibe too.

They picked him so Murphy could get an erection without needing to touch himself.

Bonus Darren Criss dick shadow

One more for your enjoyment.

Criss has got distressingly short legs.

It looks thick because he is wearing a modesty garment over it for the set.

Any gifs of him diving into the pool? That was a great ass shot.

[quote]I wonder why they picked Cody Fern for this. He's so twinky by comparison. He gives off a really young vibe too.

I thought the same thing. In some scenes he seemed like someone in their late teens/early 20s rather than someone close to 30. Cody has a bit of baby face.

If you’ve been playing the Datalounge Drinking Game, please stop taking a sip of your booze each time someone complains that an actor doesn’t exactly resemble the person they are portraying.

If you’re not already dead of alcohol poisoning, you will be soon.

R95, I think the show is drawing parallels among all these people who are hiding or have secrets. Some out of shame, some out of fear, some because of injustice, and so on. One of the best episodes was the one that focused on Jeff Trail and his semi-coming out by virtue of the 48 Hours interview contrasted with Versace's soft coming out in The Advocate.

R106 Cause he's short (5'8" at best) so......

Also do one every time someone bitches about the reverse order of the timeline, r110.

I've enjoyed the show and look forward to watching each week. I think Criss has well exceeded any expectations regarding his portrayal of Cunanan. And my friends that watch it all like it--what's interesting to ne is that they are a diverse group, including two straight guys and my 80-yr old mom.

I think its drawing an audience partially because it's a new show with a limited run during the dead days of winter. Doesn't everyone watch more TV during the winter? I know I do

[quote]Bonus Darren Criss dick shadow

Based on that, I'm sure Criss won't get considered if they decide to do a remake of this.

The guy playing David is my favorite. Damn he’s sexy. I then saw the real version who also seems sexy but clearly older and more muscular. The Jeff actor resembles his real life counter pact better.

imagine whut the str8s mus think when they watch this gay murderous conundrum....glad they aint one huh

Because straights never commit murder, R117...

Yep, here's one.

----

I think the show is terrific. However, the back and forth narrative does make certain things confusing. I'm constantly asked by people also watching, who this person is or was, and it's not because they haven't been introduced yet, it's just that the timeline is so out of sync you forget. Then people wonder if this individual on the screen was already introduced or not. You'd literally have to go back and rewatch all the episodes to make sure.

Darren Criss, who I think is excellent in this, btw, revealed how much has been cut from the show. Entire back stories and even Skeet Ulrich's characters. It's amazing that FX allows their shows to go long, some 60 minutes, so 90+.

Was Andrew ever quoted as having a big dick, cause I saw a picture of it and it wasn't big.

While I think it's careless that many of Murphy's shows use creative licence to the extreme when telling the stories of real people, he at least is bringing attention to stories that people may not remember or have cared about. "Feud" was the worst thing he's ever produced. It was offensive. However, at least it got the younger generation interested in Old Hollywood.

Do you think Darren would show peen on Broadway?

R124 He should do a revival of Equus just so he could.

The reverse chronological order doesn't bother me, but it makes it impossible to ever find anything redeeming about Cunanan. Doesn't matter if the later episodes highlighting his youth help me understand what may have caused his descent into the person he became. Given what I've seen from the beginning of his murder spree and overall horrible and toxic persona, I wouldn't care at this point if he was a horribly abused kid. I still wouldn't give a fuck about him. But, someone upthread said that maybe the show was set up like this for that very reason - so we don't sympathize, even just a sliver, with him.

R80, I totally agree with R81. The series is most definitely worth watching.

[quote]Too many commercials to watch the s how at the time of airing. Record and watch later is imperative.

That's what I've done with every episode -- tape and then watch over the weekend.

Bless you, r119/r120. That's what I was hoping for.

[quote]The reverse chronological order doesn't bother me, but it makes it impossible to ever find anything redeeming about Cunanan.

Why should you? He's not redeemable.

Woah.

The FBI's entire file on Andrew, including his purchases.

Did Andrew kill Lincoln...

....

Where is the pic of the real Lincoln? Cause the guy who played him is HOT.

"Cunanun (sic) had no real connection to Versace. What happened in Milan years before he was killed has NOTHING to do with the story."

It's a plot device to show the trajectories of two gay men of different social strata, age groups, and accomplishments, seemingly parallel and thus never to meet, but which are lines on a collision course.

I'd probably read the FBI file on Cunanan but doesn't it contain graphic photos of the murders? If so, I'd rather not see that (yes, I know, mary!).

[quote]Cause he's short (5'8" at best) so......

He's around 5ft6. I've seen him from three feet away.

[quote]Did Andrew kill Lincoln...

Yes! Can we finally clear my name now?

[quote]That's what I've done with every episode -- tape and then watch over the weekend.

"Tape?" Are you posting from 1987?

Burl STIFF! A new DL fave!!

Link please, R123.

This show is becoming a bore.

I was hoping for a nice clear view of Cody’s ass.

r57, I still have this red Perry Ellis dress shirt. One of his trademarks was to put a pleat where the sleeve met the shoulder panel.

That r58, and a Catholic thing.

I agree r70. A little too "American Psycho."

R76 &r77, I love me some Kathy Nijimy. I can only imagine it's by choice that she doesn't work more. Everyone I know loves her.

r80, if you skip through the commercials, there is meat there. They are telling the story in reverse, but if you are familiar with the story, you can keep up. We DVR it and watch it the next day, instead of Maury.

r83, my husband has suggested we do the same thing.

r123, I took, "Feud" with a humongous grain of salt. From the beginning of their movie careers (even though Joan had a 5+ year head start), Bette was an actor and Joan was a Star.

Sorry, R44, you can’t take Feud with a grain of salt. Your reaction must be blind rage and incredulity and you must post about your distress on Datalounge over and over again. It’s the proper way to react to a Ryan Murphy production on this website.

When i go to bed at night i thank the Baby Jeebus for Ryan Murphy.

R14 I know Norman gave him his own Amex and paid the bills. They argued about it towards the end of the relationship when dumb ass Andrew gave Norman his "list of Demands."

Are Darren Criss and Aaron Tveit still fucking?

Darren is going to do just fine. I agree about Ricky. All he does is lean on furniture and look concerned or resentful. Then there are the meaningful glances between him and Edgar. I have to say. Casting Edgar Ramirez as Gianni was sheer brilliance. He is unbelievable.

I do have to complain about pacing. The way this was edited and the way it's structured, they have drained all the dramatic tension out of it. There are a lot of popular true stories out here that a re recreated for movies or TV, and still they manage to have a certain tension to them even when we are familiar with the outcome.

I had to laugh at Ricky in the last episode. He had like one line (I'm not afraid of her temper) and spent the rest of his time looking from Gianni to donatella as the argued. It was like he was watching a tennis match every time the camera showed him.

He might get something to do in the last episode.

I know they filmed a lot and then threw it out (Leto? Hello??) but isn't there a murder missing? The graveyard guy? And didn't he send a week at the west side club in Manhattan? Its a blur between my memories of the time and the Dunne book.

[quote]When i go to bed at night i thank the Baby Jeebus for Ryan Murphy.

Do you find your bed oddly empty when you retire R146?

They showed the murder of the cemetary caretaker, R151.

R80 well worth watching. It's as much about the gay experience in the '90s as it was about Cunanan.

A very solid series with a couple of brilliant episodes.

Hey 151 here went back and rewatched 3rd episode - My dvr stopped early and I missed The murder of the graveyard worker. And boy did I really miss something. Judith Light done shook that Emmy Tree with her final scene in the TV studio. Touching AND chilling. How many can do that??

It’s “about the gay experience” if you’re a sociopathic spree-killer

Then it obviously should appeal to about 98% of the DL r156.

Judith was chewing the scenery.

Darren on Andrew:

wait, Leto was supposed to be in this??? I knew about Skeet whatshisname, but Leto??

Who was Skeet playing?

^ a porn producer

-----

Darren looks really good in that video. His dancing is also very feminine.

The actor playing the dad is very good.

Is it a fact that the dad had sex with Andrew?

Hmm, both young Andrew and young Gianni are shown writing left handed, but I'm pretty sure we've seen Darren and Edgar writing right handed in this series. Am i wrong? Too bad I don't have the episodes recorded to check. Continuity errors like that bug me.

Obsessed much, Pete? Creepy.

Modesto was straight out of Glengary Glen Ross with his tactics.

Darren looks great with a beard. I get the impression that he doesn't mind being typecast as gay. I think he could have great success in musical roles, but I'm having a hard time seeing him convincingly play a straight man pursing a girl. He's too pretty.

Matt Bomer’s doing a really good job directing this episode.

One of the best episodes this season.

I love Andrews car. I want it.

The actor playing Andrew's father is terrific.

Intense episode

The actor playing the dad was perfect. This was easily the best episode so far for me.

The scene with the dad in the Philippines was so intense!!!

It was well done aand cohesive. I don't think Andrew's trip to the Philippines really happened but it's been so long since I read the book.

Jon Jon Briones

R178 I think he did visit the dad and like the show was disgusted with the state of his living situation.

The cab driver made it seem like it would be horrible but it wasn’t.

I thought that, too r181. I was expecting a slum like in India.

Maybe it was worse in the daytime.

R181, The cabbie didn't think an American would want to go to a poor section.

Well, in the eyes of Andrew, I'm sure it was a slum.

Jon Jon Briones was so intense. Had he been younger, he would have been perfect as Andrew. He really captured that mix of charm and intimidation.

Yes, r167, little Andrew is shown writing left-handed, and older Andrew applies for the drugstore job writing right-handed.

Andrew Cunanan really did go to the Philippines to visit his father, and it was awful. And yes, Maureen Orth writes about it in her book.

r187, I'm really not sure why you would bother posting something didn't happen when you clearly don't remember the events of the book.

Sorry, I meant r178, not r187.

This episode seemed populated by real people, not actors, not caricatures.

As a result, we can now see that Criss's portrayal of Andrew has many notes, not just one.

One of the Cunanan sisters was blonde and it was believed by many that she was the product of an affair.

Interesting interview with MB. Wish they had left this episode 90 mins. It was the best one yet.

Another interview with Bomer

It was ninety minutes, no?

So did dad molest Andrew?

This was weakest episode of this season . I blame it on weak direction

R151, I didn't know that Cunanan had spent time at the West Side Club. Was that in the Orth book?

Weak? It was terrific!

R194, The only weakness is in your poor grammar, IVAN.

They really upped the creep factor in this episode. It was intense and sad.

R197+Paranoid eldergay

r199 doesn't understand the English article "the."

I agree with others, this really was the best episode of the series. And thanks R179 for the actors name, he was very good. He really captured the go-go 80s mentality very well. Anyone who lived through the 80s ran into more than one guy with Pete's personality. The line about being able to go to America with nothing and becoming a success being a lie was my favorite scene because it's so fucking true.

I do remember hearing about Cunanan spending time at the West Side Club bathhouse but how can anyone spend a week there??

R200. is a toxic Elder homosexual who plays grammar nazi on DL

I thought it was the worst episode too. So boring. My boyfriend fell asleep and didn't even care to rewatch. The actor playing the dad was really good though. I thought kid andrew was good casting too.

I guess some of you expected lot of Gay sex and nudity, and fucking all over the place. And then, with the murders, you wanted to see more blood, and with the interlude in Florida you wanted it to be grittier and nasty. Sorrreee!

What I find strange about the series is that other than Darren Criss, every episode seems like a different style of filmmaking. It doesn't have cohesiveness for me. I enjoy each week but as stand alone mini movies.

I personally did expect more gay sex! Sue me!

R206 The creative team on the show actually intentionally made each episode as an homage in way to a certain film or type of film. I think it was a cool idea but in hindsight didn't make for a cohesive show. I do like so many aspects of this show from the acting to a lot of the aesthetics. However there is something a bit off about the execution and that's disappointing.

Darren’s dancing was so damn gay!

So many cringeworthy elements in this episode:

The dad's Spanish-influenced (yeah, he's Filipino) machismo and bravado. Gross.

The awkward gay dude who crushes on Andrew.

The whole "this is the best school in San Diego - we're so elite!" thing. Jeeze, it's not fucking Eton.

R209 he can't help it. It's only natural.

Did I miss something about why the dad never liked his other kids and treated Andrew like a prince? Was this explained?

The father was a sociopath, right? Like hardcore.

Was Andrew's father sexually abusing him?

If Andrew was so elite and smart, why didn't he go to fucking Yale or Harvard?

The dad was at young Andrew’s bedside, mentioned kissing his toes when he was injured from an incident with a heater and then turned the light off. The camera angle seemed to make it clear that the dad was molesting him.

The mother's so fucking annoying. Is she still alive?

She passed away in 2015 I think, R217. I hope her other kids took care of her into old age. That could not have been an easy last almost-20 years for her.

Excellent episode. For a split second, I did feel some sympathy for Andrew. I had to remind myself that he murdered all those people. It really was a step by step lesson on how to a raise a sociopath.

I wonder what Cunanan's siblings think of the show. I watched a special that said Cunanan's nieces and nephews know nothing of him. Which makes sense. I wouldn't tell my kids about their murderous uncle either if I were them.

If Andrew was so smart, he should have known his Dad was being extremely weird and should have resisted.

Resisted? He was a kid and was taking advantage of in many ways according to the show.

How did he find his dad in the middle of the Philippians?

Loved the CHARIOTS OF FIRE and BRIDESHEAD REVISITED posters in his room! Not to mention his carrying the TEDDY BEAR, like Sebastian. I knew a guy, in his 40s at the time, who actually did carry a large teddy bear into a party. The problem was, the party was in Memphis TN and none of them had seen or even heard of Brideshead Revisited. They looked at him like he was NUTS.

Andrew had a pass to the West Side Club in his belongings that was purchased May 5th. No one knows how long hesitated there because the surveillance video from the check in automatically erases at the end of each month, He was in NYC May 5th to 8th and may have been at the West Side Club the whole time. The whole thing was very vague, but then in that period anonymity was key so of course no one remembered anyone from a bathhouse

This episode(Creator/Destroyer) had great suspense and drama (unlike the previous two episodes). It really helped clarify how Andrew became a pathological liar. My only quibble with it is that it offered a whole lot of Destroyer (Andrew) and only a little bit of Creator (Gianni Versace). The line that was most memorable to me was when when Gianni's mother told him that success would take hours, days, months, and years of hard work. Andrew certainly never got that kind of message from his father.

Great final scene at the drug store

[quote]The line that was most memorable to me was when when Gianni's mother told him that success would take hours, days, months, and years of hard work. Andrew certainly never got that kind of message from his father.

Agreed R226. Gianni's mother made it clear he needed to work while Andrew's father lavished everything on him without actually telling him he needed to work, which I think makes sense as his father worked his ass off in the Philippines and most likely didn't want Andrew to have to do the same which is a terrible thing to teach a kid.

I think it was made clear to Andrew’s parents that he was extremely bright so they probably thought he wouldn’t have to work particularly hard to achieve success.

I remember the 80’s and could see someone getting caught up in the age of greed, etc. it was the first decade that white collar careers exploded and everyone wanted to be Gordon Gekko. This episode really brought me back to all that.

And the preppy look! So many people didn't catch that the preppy handbook was supposed to be satire!

Criss seemed more confused and less creepy in this episode. Briones was brilliant. Camera work was gorgeous, too. Matt Bomer did a good job directing. This was the best episode yet.

The casting of all the secondary roles were spot on, too. I don’t think much of him as an actor but Bomer has undeniable talent as a director.

Bomer is a decent actor but he definitely shouldn't give up acting. He's too pretty to only be behind the camera.

Andrew's dad straight up told him, 'you'll be successful because you're special'. That's a terrible message to give to a kid. And since he was given everything he wanted, I can see why Andrew just expected success to happen for him without actually working for it.

Nice contrast with Versace's mom's good advice.

That's what most American kids have been told for that last decade, R235. Everyone's a diva superstar.

I love that these final episodes don't have lots of gore and sex. They just slowly build up why Cunanan had the ultimate emotional break.

He thought he was special but refused to work for it.

He tried to fake it, but when people found out, they abandoned him

Cunanan just wasn't emotionally prepared for that. Plus, both his parents were nuts so he got those genes.

Excellent episode that finally explains his pathology.

Agree the directing was masterful especially the scene of the father running from the FBI.

Nice use of Mosquito netting

I recall the scene where Andrew pushed his mother away from him while he was packing to leave her apartment. He pushed her so hard that it fractured her shoulder. It was the only time that Andrew had any "real" emotion and seemed upset and actually sorry for his actions. OTOH, she didn't seem to be overly upset. Now I know why. Andrew's father pushed and hit her all the time. What a brutal horrible man. I blame him for what Andrew became.

I took the title Creator/Destroyer to mean that Andrew's father had both created him and destroyed him.

Best episode of the season. The only fact they left out was that Andrew actually did go to a University after high school but he later dropped out. They also never mentioned that he had a genius IQ, that's why he was the favorite child.

I'm with the crowd who thought it was a bore. And I have been yelled it in the past on this board when I complained about the gore and sex so it wasn't what I was looking for. It just seemed to take forever and, yet again, we got about 10 minutes of Versace.

It wasn't at all boring to me, however the show didn't take it far enough with what it was trying to do. It was slow at stretches.

The Calabria flashbacks were beautiful. I'm stilli a bit irked by the fact that italian people speak english to each other but i guess that's popular tv for you: only The Americans dare with long sequences with subtitles.

So, Andrew's dad sexually molested him?

R245 I agree. Also the scenes between Donatella and Gianni in private didn't bother me, despite the fact that they obviously would speak in Italian to each other.

R239 the mosquito netting was terrible. THey are never hung like curtains. They have to totally enclose a space to work,

R242 A scene in the previous episode brought his foray into college.

His sugar daddy offered to pay for him to continue

The Vulture weekly analysis of the episode has a few interesting links: a 1997 video interview with Cunanan's brother and sister (they look sane and attractive, i didn't expect that) and the Cunanan's yearbook picture. Watching the episode it seemed pretty obvious they were hinting to sexual molestation from his father, but the article says nothing about it. Was that in the book?

^wait, sorry: the article DO talk about molestation.

They used Samantha Fox's Touch Me! LOL! Was it popular in the USA also? it was huge here in Europe in 1987.

R252 yes, that song was everywhere in the US!

"The Vulture weekly analysis of the episode has a few interesting links: a 1997 video interview with Cunanan's brother and sister (they look sane and attractive, i didn't expect that) and the Cunanan's yearbook picture. Watching the episode it seemed pretty obvious they were hinting to sexual molestation from his father, but the article says nothing about it. Was that in the book?"

I wouldn't be surprised if it happened or if Murphy was just implying it. He tends to like to lay on all awful aspects of being gay - he made Jeff Trails's saga more tortured than it was in real life.- Not that sexual molestation is an inherent aspect of being gay, but we have a gay character who ends up a sociopathic murderer. I can see Murphy wanting to suggest that some of those seeds spring from molestation

The dad was so fucking annoying. I'd love to hear from the siblings. It's so bizarre; not favoring one child (that happens), but to that extent - and the youngest (it's usually the oldest).

per Vulture, Cunanan called a molestation hot line for help when he was younger, but apparently the culprit was a priest. But nobody is 100% sure about this. R225, watch the interview with Cunanan's brother and sister at R250's link. The confirm most of what the episode showed. What surprised me (as i said before) is how well put together and relaxed they look. It's like they are describing their fun, dumb, spoiled little brother, not a psycho killer.

Love this, everyone does a great job. Favorite segments were the Miglins! The real Marilyn strongly resembles Chilly Pepper at Chicago's baton club lounge!

Jon Jon Briones was in the ensemble of the original cast of "Miss Saigon." When it was revived a few years back, he was The Engineer.

Here's what didn't work for me. OK. I get that the father was the sick twisted bastard who convinced Andrew he was completely special, and daddy was a monster, a psycho, abusive piece of shit. I suspect he terrorized his entire family and from a young age Andrew felt safe only because of his father's favor. That had to be traumatic. But IMO the scenes with Andrew & his father in the Philippines, didn't show me a disturbed unbalanced young man. It showed me someone who was finally realizing his father was a liar , an asshole, and had left him and his mother and siblings literally stranded with no home, no money and nothing but lies. Andrew was angry at his father. If he had stabbed his father he would have been justified. At least I'd understand it. Then later when he applies for the job at the drug store he tells the guy his father owns pineapple plantations. Reverting to his fantasies. IMO it just seemed like it wasn't working. Andrew had to already be fragile. Already suffering from some psychosis otherwise his father's betrayal would've been a wake up call. And they didn't show that well enough for me.

R259 You are trying to find logic into a psychopaths behavior. It was fascinatingly disturbing that while he is angry with his dad, there is something that he has inherited at a very fundamental level. Reverting to fantasies is a very common contradictory behavior in abused children. It's a defense mechanism and also a manipulative behavior. For a tv episode this complex part of his psyche was brilliantly shown

I only recently learned that there are many photos and videos of Edgar Ramirez completely nude, showing off his ass and cock. I know it's not porn, but wow! He's very sexy!

Welcome to the club, R261.

R260, you make some excellent points. Thanks.

Thanks for sharing links to the Ramirez dick pics

Matt Bomer directed and did a great job. The whole FBI scene was really intense.

While the FBI was after his father, he most certainly never made it onto their Most Wanted List, so I guess Andrew was more successful than Daddy.

Modesto was such a POS that after Andrew killed himself he came back to the US with a filipino director in tow because he wanted to shoot a doc about his beloved son who was "framed", of course. A con man til the end.

Is the dad still alive?

I think so. Like Joe Jackson, the biggest pieces of shit tend to stick around for way too long.

So true r269

Ramirez has a cute dick and ass. I wouldn't mind him showing them off more.

And Darren's ass is nice also.

R249 I know what episode you're referring to, but in the most recent episode, it was implied that Andrew graduated high school and then worked at a drug store and had no other opportunities.

In real life, Andrew went to the University of California in San Diego. He probably could of had a normal, happy life had he just stayed in school, but he wanted success without having to work for it.

R272 that is so true. And then he has another shot with Norman, and he really shit all over that. Norman had him investigated. Norman knew he was lying with his fantasy life. and yet he had a gorgeous home to share with Andrew, gave him a car, they traveled to wonderful places, he had a credit card with Norman paying the bills, and Norman was more than willing to put him through college. He even boosted Andrew's ego, pointing out his good qualities, and talents, then Andrew shits all over that with his stupid list of demands. And baby when Norman was through with him he was through.

[quote] He probably could of

*shakes head*

Amazing.

Can’t wait to see the final episode. Then I think I’ll try watching it backwards (last episode first). I’m more impressed with Darren Criss with each episode. Wish we could have seen Versace as a teen or young man, though. Apparently the episode was pared down from 90 mins to 60mins and some of the Versace story was abandoned.

R272 Again with the 'could of'? Oh, dear.

Criss's dancing isn't natural. It's the typical exaggerated TV gay, basically lifted from Will and Grace.

R278 please post a video of you dancing at a house party to Whip It. Teach us how a real gay gets down on the floor.

The episode that aired for me was 90 minutes. Or was it really 60 with 30 minutes of commercials?

Either way, it started at 10 and ended at 11:30.

I would've liked teenaged Versace as well. I felt so bad when he told his mom 'my teacher called me a pervert.' that sucks.

R278 What, did you want him to perform the foxtrot at a high school party?

R278 Andrew Cunanan wasn't a natural teenager. Apparently he was really extra, so...

Agree Matt Bomer did a great job. Looking forward to what he directs next.

Agree Jon Jon Briones was amazing.

And I also think Darren Criss turned in a great performance in this episode as well (more like in the first two episodes and the Descent one). Maybe it was Bomer's directing. Sometimes all it takes is a good director to draw a good performance from someone.

That scene between Andrew and Modesto in Manila was a favorite.

(Agree about everybody's nice asses.)

Did Modesto favor Andrew so unhealthily because of his mother's postpartum depression or...? I didn't exactly GET why he thought Andrew was the special one at such a young age. Maybe I missed something. Or maybe the man was just too messed up?

R281, simmer down. It's played up gestures.

R283 The point is that he's being attention-seeking and literally takes over the floor. Playing it up is the whole point.

r282 I read somewhere that Modesto favored him because he was the least Asian-looking of the bunch.

You do know that Matt Bomer and Darren are good friends? I'm not suggesting anything untoward here. But they became good friends when Matt worked on Glee I think he played Darren's older brother or something. But they sang together on the show I remember it because Matt Bomer was so damned hot in the sequence even though the song was shit. anyway, I think the fact that they're friends may have had something to do with Matt being able to get a good performance out of him, although in truth, Darren has been doing a great job with this character all along.

That would be such an Asian thing to do. Asians love white people more than white people.

R278 Andrew and his younger sister had a different upbringing than the two older ones - Modesto called them "street kids" while the two younger were incredibly spoiled and grew up in their "wealthier" phase. I think the postpartum issue was pretty big, as Modesto pretty much raised him alone. Agreed about the Asian comment. He also felt he was super handsome.

^^ Sorry, meant R282.

R284, I mean played up as imitation. I know what the scene goes for.

Creator/Destroyer was the first episode that I truly enjoyed, in fact I may watch it again.

Yes, Bomer did a masterful job. But I do not get the majority's view of Criss both looks-wise and acting-wise. I find him quite difficult to look at depending on the angle and distance from the camera. I may be the only one who feels this way, but I think the real Andrew was much better looking(obviously not at the end stage of his life.) And that dreadful looking Lizzie, his "debutante" BFF has to be the fugliest actress I have seen in a long time. Her nose is so distracting and weird. I cannot believe that her agent would not almost demand that she fix it.

I give the entire series thus far a C+, but the last episode was an A-.

R286 Yeah, I watched Glee, I know they're friends and maybe that favored their dynamic or their collaboration, which is not a bad thing at all (some actors and directors just work great together and do it often; I would enjoy these two working together like this again). And I like Darren a lot, but I'm not always sold on his acting, at least on camera. I do like his performance on this show OVERALL, with maybe a few weak moments , though also a few brilliant ones. And I think this episode was one of his strongest. Then again, Descent and the first two were directed by other people and I though he was great in those also. Just saying good performances sometimes do have a lot to do with the directors (sometimes actors are just good) and Matt seems really promising as one in general.

R287 Yeah. That explanation would make sense, too. It's sad. It's what colonization and imposing Eurocentric beauty standards worldwide will do to a person.

My favorite episode of the series.

I was just smiling through much of it...watching Jon Jon Briones work. I'd never heard of him before, and within 5 minutes he won me over. I get genuinely thrilled to see someone new (to me) performing so damned well. Beautiful job. Just a pleasure watching someone act with such [bold]intellect[/bold]...

(Also...lulz...watching it, I thought, "Oh, I know those DL queens are gonna be appreciating how fucking good this guy is..." And you did.)

R293 Did we ever colonize Japan? No. And yet they are obsessed with whitening their skin. And everyone is familiar by now with Korean's industry of serious plastic surgery to westernize the faces of the youth, male and female. I realize we have a military presence there, but we never colonized them. The only European colonization which I can think of is GB with Hong Kong, and the French with Vietnam. And honestly, neither of those locations seem terribly taken with Europeans.

If you could educate me as to how your opinion was formed, I would like to learn more.

I love the music but most of it is from early 80's, wrong time frame

The Philippines was an American colony R295. There were plenty of other Western colonies in Asia, Japan wanted to “liberate” them in WW2 and become the colonial power in the region instead. Did you pay attention in school?

[quote] gain with the 'could of'? Oh, dear.

He could of used could've, but them he wouldn't of pissed you off, and that could of been his goal.

Good post R294. Briones really was the standout in this series and he was a joy to watch.

Christ, the ONE time I write "could of" instead of "could have" on DL.

I am so sorry that I triggered the sensitive grammar queens.

[quote]You do know that Matt Bomer and Darren are good friends? I'm not suggesting anything untoward here. But they became good friends when Matt worked on Glee I think he played Darren's older brother or something. But they sang together on the show I remember it because Matt Bomer was so damned hot in the sequence even though the song was shit. anyway, I think the fact that they're friends may have had something to do with Matt being able to get a good performance out of him, although in truth, Darren has been doing a great job with this character all along.

Criss had been terrific all along but now you're seeing the Andrew who people fell in love with, not the first episodes serial killer. It's written that way. You now see that the married lady who takes him into her life and home sees him being shunned on the dance floor and takes control.

R295 Also, there's America's modern form of imperialism, which overwhelmingly spreads eurocentric beauty standards and it's been strong for a long time now. A lot of people are exposed to these standards everywhere in the world and it does affect people who aren't white, even outside the US, to the point of making them consider their own features unattractive.

Ugh, sorry for furthering "the discourse". Back to ACS, the point is, Modesto thinking Andrew was special because he looked the least Asian makes total sense and it's terrible and even setting that side, he was just a terrible person and the episode was great and the acting was great.

R301 And yes, agreed.

Now I'm really (morbidly) looking forward to the suicide in the finale.

At the height of Cunanan fever a friend of mine from California said "all you have to know his how people in San Diego treat Philipinnos and you know why Andrew went crazy." Can someone explain that to me --

R304, I will venture a guess. California has a high population of Asians than the rest of America, particularly around the large cities of Los Angeles, San Francisco, and San Diego. But even among these populations of Asian-Americans, there are hierarchies. Japanese and Chinese are at the top, Koreans and Vietnamese are in the middle, and Filipinos are at the bottom.

You're so authoritative when it comes to that hierarchy, R305. Are you certain? Because that's not what I heard -- from three of those five groups.

Today Santo Versace told an italian radio show that he watches the series because he wants to understand "how many lies they could tell". He said it's a "porcheria" (a shitshow), a dumb show full of lies. And that it's all about Cunanan but they used the Versace title to cash on that. He said it was "obscene".

Andrew changed his name once he was on his own (usually to DiSilva). Most people did not realize he was half Filipino. He sometimes claimed to be of Italian or Spanish descent and other times he said he was Jewish. So if he was aware of prejudice against Filipinos in So Cal, he mostly avoided it. I think the scene about the escort agency rejecting him because he was Asian was made up.

Have you got a link to the italian radio show, per piacere?

Yes, r300, I AM "sensitive" regarding this error. "Could've" and "would've" and "should've" would otherwise be written "could'f" and "would'f" and "should'f."

Yeah, it's apparent that the Versace family doesn't even want the world to think Gianni was gay, let alone a gay man with AIDS living with a gay man and who was murdered by yet another gay man.

Re: Modesto's singling Andrew out as "special" to be spoiled:

Perhaps it began after Andrew's I.Q. was tested as 147.

[quote]Today Santo Versace told an italian radio show that he watches the series because he wants to understand "how many lies they could tell". He said it's a "porcheria" (a shitshow), a dumb show full of lies. And that it's all about Cunanan but they used the Versace title to cash on that. He said it was "obscene".

Translation....they didn't pay us.

[quote]And that it's all about Cunanan but they used the Versace title to cash on that.

He's not wrong here.

Elliot Rodgers is another half-Asian, half-white who went berserk.

R186 I stated it had been a long time since I'd read the book. I figured someone would correct me politely if I were wrong, not be a cunt about it.

"Criss had been terrific all along but now you're seeing the Andrew who people fell in love with"

I mean, he's certainly not as anywhere near as bad in these episodes (because he's not a killer) but I'm still not seeing someone who people would fall in love with.

here it is, R309

"Today Santo Versace told an italian radio show that he watches the series because he wants to understand "how many lies they could tell". He said it's a "porcheria" (a shitshow), a dumb show full of lies. And that it's all about Cunanan but they used the Versace title to cash on that. He said it was "obscene"."

It's not so much full of absolute "lies" as it is with a lot of made up fiction and distortion of real life events (though some stuff is accurate).

Thing is I don’t find that the Versace family has really been painted in a negative light in this series. The Cunanan family on the other hand.

R315, that crazy guy was not even bad looking. But he had gay face for days!!

[quote]I will venture a guess. California has a high population of Asians than the rest of America, particularly around the large cities of Los Angeles, San Francisco, and San Diego. But even among these populations of Asian-Americans, there are hierarchies. Japanese and Chinese are at the top, Koreans and Vietnamese are in the middle, and Filipinos are at the bottom

I worked with a Vietnamese doctor at a family health clinic several years back. She mentioned by treated like shit by a Japanese professor during college.

That's very true, R320. The Versaces come across pretty well. Sure the fight, but it's shown as commendable "passion." They're shown creating, supporting each other, talking things out after arguing, working hard, achieving, loving.

Has the family led any effort to tell its own story about the family or Gianni or the murder? Because if they haven’t, they certainly could.

The show is called the "assassination" of Gianni Versache. It is obviously about the killer and the crime. Still they did show the Versaces in quite depth and with good values. There would probably be no show about Versace if he wasn't murdered. This is supposed to be a crime story. It stands to reason that they should explore and highlight the criminial.

did the other victims' families say anything about the show? I get both the points of view. This was a pop phenomenon so it was only natural that it became a tv show. But still I'd feel terrible if I were related to one of the victims. Even - like in this case - if everyone was portrayed with great respect.

[quote] I figured someone would correct me politely if I were wrong, not be a cunt about it.

You must be new here.

R305 here. I don't claim to be an authority; I was venturing a guess on Asian hierarchies. R306, please share your perspective.

"[R200]. is a toxic Elder homosexual who plays grammar nazi on DL"

Does this mean you're a toxic Elder homosexual who doesn't know enough about grammar to be a grammar nazi on DL?

'Cause that's what it sounds like.

I remember dating the general manager of one of NYC's most notorious nightclubs in the late 90's, he told me was a former Versace model and we hit it off while I was waiting in line one night. I'd come in straight from Boston every week, play around with him in the office, while he was on the phone talking Italian. This went on for a few months, he invited me to Miami several times, and I could never seem to get it to gel with my work schedule.

I read Versace's bio years later and his name popped up as his pimp. I only realized then that was Versace himself on the phone on the other end all those times, and his inviting me wasn't being nice,

it was his job.

The cemetary caretaker William Reese's son Troy made a comment last year on Facebook about how the show was going to cover the murders. Troy doesn't seem all there. He was interviewed last year by Dateline for the 20th anniversary of the murders. He talked about how strangers sent him and his mother letters of support. Troy was arrested last summer for trying to solicit sex with a minor. It was a situation where an undercover cop posing a teenage girl had communications with him online.

Before that scandal, Troy set up a GoFundMe to raise money to be a traveling preacher and he mentioned that his father was a victim of the serial killer who also killed "Johnny viciti" The GoFundMe is linked below with a video of one of one Troy's Dateline interviews.

With all the money gone, how the hell was Andrew able to purchase an international airline ticket at the last minute?

That would have cost thousands of dollars.

[quote]Japanese and Chinese are at the top, Koreans and Vietnamese are in the middle, and Filipinos are at the bottom.

Um, no. Vietnamese, Cambodians, Laotians are all in the bottom rung.

[quote]I remember dating the general manager of one of NYC's most notorious nightclubs in the late 90's

It had everything.

I was wondering that r332 - and how he knew the random area where his dad was staying.

R330. Its a Small Gay World.

r335, Andrew had his father's (or uncle's) address. He didn't need to know the directions; the cabbie knew the way.

[quote]With all the money gone, how the hell was Andrew able to purchase an international airline ticket at the last minute?

[quote]That would have cost thousands of dollars.

I think the scene of Andrew being in the car with that older guy may have been to imply he had started escorting in high school and may have had money saved up which his mom may have not known about it. But, I agree it would have cost thousands to fly at the last minute.

Maybe I'm alone, but I don't think Donatella has been portrayed very sympathetically at all. Cold as ice, all about appearances, the money and the business, treated her murdered brother's gay partner terribly. And stupid! Who did she think she was kidding that people in the 1990s didn't already assume that some flashy male fashion designer was gay?

[quote]I think the scene of Andrew being in the car with that older guy may have been to imply he had started escorting in high school and may have had money saved up which his mom may have not known about it.

Except he refused the money being offering him, thinking they were really dating.

That makes me think he hadn't quite gotten the gist of being a escort yet.

Was there any explanation for where he got the money to fly internationally at the very last minute in the book?

[quote] Who did she think she was kidding that people in the 1990s didn't already assume that some flashy male fashion designer was gay

And no, it wasn't an Italy thing. They all knew/know. Boys/men are playing or watching football, not sketching women's dresses.

[quote] At the height of Cunanan fever a friend of mine from California said "all you have to know his how people in San Diego treat Philipinnos and you know why Andrew went crazy." Can someone explain that to me --

They misspelled the name of their nationality, and that drove them murderously insane.

[quote] Japanese and Chinese are at the top, Koreans and Vietnamese are in the middle, and Filipinos are at the bottom.

What about the... (shudders) Thais?

Where do Mongolians fit in?

At the very top according to DL, R344.

Japanese

Chinese

Korean

Thai

The rest of SE Asia.

R339 The real one was a bitch to Antonio. He was supposed to get a certain amount of money a month for the rest of his life and any house of Versace's to live in, and he got neither. She even admits in an interview she never liked him but tried to treat him with respect for Gianni, though if she actually did, she would've tried harder to give him what was in Gianni's will.

....

R348 Neither of them looks particularly attractive.

Based on certain knowledge it seems like Cunanan and Madson had a more significant relationship than the one night stand the show portrays.

Japanese, then Chinese, then dirty knees and finally look at these.

Seeing as Andrew's mother is dead, and we all agree that the Versace family looks pretty damn good in the show, I would bet that the one person who is the most pissed off about it is one Marilyn Miglin. I imagine she is beside herself since she tried so hard to make the murder appear random. The movie doesn't evocate even a tad on Miglin's sexuality, and that in itself must b hard on her(because it makes their marriage look like a lie. She always claimed that "their love affair" was a storybook romance for the ages.)

I hope the mom was at least taken well care of in her last years because she seemed to have an awful life.

marilyns products are horrible crap. I bought some skin crap once that was like blue jello.

The Versace family did not come across good at all, R352. And even less so now with the brother Santos' interview. Gianne's mom was the only one who came across as sympathetic.

If Gianni had made clear in his will that Antonio was to receive a monthly stipend and the use of a Versace house until death he would have received them.

The people who think the real David Madison was more attractive than the actor playing him are crazy. He looked 10 years older than his age and average at best.

R353 I don't think she was, I'm pretty sure she survived off disability and social security and lived in a shitty apartment alone untill the day she died.

I agree with R357.

When was that photo taken of them cuddling? Andrew looks bloated, which makes it look like it was taken just before the killings.

I thought was got too much of the Destroyer and not enough of the Creator. I would have liked a few more scenes with Versace as he grew into his talent. And maybe, at the end, when we see Andrew going to work at the Pharmacy they could've cut to Versace opening his first dress shop.

I had previously interpreted the title as "creator" of the monster AC had become. At the same time Modesto destroyed his son's ability to be self-sufficient, humble, and hard working, he created a narcissistic entitled monster.

But yea it would've been interesting to see more versace rather than just the little kid version.

Are ee supposed to think Andrew and his father slept together in the Master Suite? In one scene we see Pete dressing and pulling his clothes from the MS closet.

^ when they move into the bigger house, Modesto tells Andrew that he'll be using the closet in Andrew's room to store all his suits. that's why he's dressing and undressing in his son's room.

[quote]when they move into the bigger house, Modesto tells Andrew that he'll be using the closet in Andrew's room to store all his suits. that's why he's dressing and undressing in his son's room.

Inferring the reason why he was always in that room.

[quote] The movie doesn't evocate even a tad

Is this a new word?

I think the poster meant "equivocate," r366.

(A reference by post number would supply the context!)

R352 here I meant equivocate, not evocate

no sure what went wrong there

Okay.

Most Philipinos were laborers and did menial work. So for Andrew's father to present himself as a stockbroker, and for Andrew to get in to Bishop was a very big deal for them.

[quote] Most Philipinos were laborers and did menial work.

I beg your pardon!

I thought that the implication was that Modesto did rape young Andrew. I'm thinking of the scene where Modesto tells Andrew the story about how Andrew didn't cry when his feet were once almost burned. Modesto seemed to be saying, you didn't cry then so don't cry now. But I haven't read the Orth book so I don't know if that's something she covered. Can any readers of the Orth book shed some light on that?

r370 see r342

I used to live in La Jolla and was an art broker at the time. I knew Norman. I mostly dealt with his partner Peter and only with Norman during any financial transactions. I was actually unaware of the Cunanan connection at the time. It was never mentioned in the circles I was in. Norman was very respected in the community as a patron of the arts. Watching the series has been odd and a bit surreal. Having known Norman, I think that he was fully aware that the relationship was a trade off. Cunanan benefited financially and Norman had a younger piece of eye candy. In my opinion, Norman probably got tired of being jerked around. The man was generous but aware that he was being taken advantage of and wanted out. The Norman I knew was a philanthropist, genuine and kind but a shrewd negotiator. Peter is nothing like Cunanan, in case you’re wondering.

[quote]If Gianni had made clear in his will that Antonio was to receive a monthly stipend and the use of a Versace house until death he would have received them.

IIRC, the issue with Antonio living in a Versace house didn't pan out because the homes and properties were owned by Santo, Donatella, and Versace's niece Allegra. Gianni should have left Antonio a home outright, but didn't.

There is no proof that Andrew was ever molested. Fact checkers have debunked that already. The show is taking liberties.

[quote]I thought was got too much of the Destroyer and not enough of the Creator. I would have liked a few more scenes with Versace as he grew into his talent. And maybe, at the end, when we see Andrew going to work at the Pharmacy they could've cut to Versace opening his first dress shop.

I agree. There should have been a couple of scenes of Versace growing up and working on his talent with encouragement from his mother as comparsion to how Modesto Cunanan didn't encourage hard work and instead spoiled Andrew.

R310 is triggered!!!!

I wouldn't be surprised if Andrew was molested, he seemed to have a sadistic hatred and contempt for older men (just look at the Lee Miglin murder). But since Andrew was raised Catholic, I think he was most likely molested by a priest or someone else in the church, not his father.

This show really highlights the ways in which spoiling a child screws them up for life. I know several people who had childhoods similar to Andrew, they're not killers but they all lack compassion and they're extremely entitled. They think the universe is going to just give them everything they want. They don't want to work for it.

The creator vs destroyer is a theme and not particular to one person. Gianni's mom vs the teacher trying to crush his creativity. Modesto building his son up and tearing him and his other children and wife down. There are creators and destroyers all around us. The theme ran through the episode brilliantly.

[quote] Most Philipinos were laborers and did menial work.

Most Filipinos in CA are associated with nursing.

[quote] In my opinion, Norman probably got tired of being jerked around.

Too much jerking around; not enough jerking off.

Our Filipinos are accountants.

Interesting that you guys are so intrigued in the incest angle

I just watched the episode. Best one so far, and it's all because of Jon Jon Briones. He elevated the performances of everyone else in the ep when he interacted with them; the second to last segment in the Philippines with Andrew was the best of the entire series, IMO

Throwback.

David is really cute 😍

[quote]I thought that the implication was that Modesto did rape young Andrew. I'm thinking of the scene where Modesto tells Andrew the story about how Andrew didn't cry when his feet were once almost burned. Modesto seemed to be saying, you didn't cry then so don't cry now. But I haven't read the Orth book so I don't know if that's something she covered. Can any readers of the Orth book shed some light on that?

It's been years since I read the Orth book. But, I don't remember being covered. The theory about Andrew being molested by a priest might have been mentioned.

Is there any proof that Andrew received special treatment from his father??

The living siblings have said as much. I think that's enough proof.

[quote]that's why he's dressing and undressing in his son's room.

No, it is not.

R388 The interview with his brother and sister.

r388....somewhere in one of these threads are the FBI files....read them....they contain interviews, reports, etc.

Hmmm?

[quote]The living siblings have said as much. I think that's enough proof.

Yeah that and Andrew's friends have also said that they knew that the older brother and the first oldest sister resented Andrew for the special treatment.

Many times the youngest child in the family is spoiled. But, Cunanan was a more extreme example.

This whole series has worked best for me as a series of portraits: Modesto, David, Jeff, the Miglins, the hustler/addict played by Max Greenfield. All of those actors have been tremendous and the stories of those characters have been so interesting. It’s just the main story that feels uninteresting to me.

If I watch this again, I think I’d watch the first episode, then jump to this one, work my way backwards and the watch next week's finale last. They did the show a big disservice doing it this way.

R393, thanks for sharing that. When you see the full context, that yearbook page is chilling.

R393, the yearbook test is incorrect. It should've been "Après moi, le déluge."

The episode just started again on FX; nine minutes in.

"Interesting that you guys are so intrigued in the incest angle"

Actually, your statement reveals a lot about you, dear.

What exactly does it reveal, dear, other than an observation about posters’ shared interests?

Well for one thing, your affinity with patriotic swimwear.

Both Jeff Trail and David Madsen were attractive

Is that all, r403?

Real David= Top

Show David= Bottom

Thanks for that pic R393. What I find amazing is the other pages have a pic of the student and other photos and a write up while Andrew has one pic and that one quote. I wish someone could shed some light on that or intercept his personality from that. For a guy who loved to big himself up that is a sparse page.

Does anyone have a theory why Andrew's section is blank on r393? What does it mean??

It means that's all he submitted to be put next to his picture in the yearbook, dope. Jesus.

Andrew began lying about himself at a young age, probably because of shame.

In the yearbook, i'm guessing that other students wrote about their families, hobbies, etc. Andrew couldn't do that since he had told so many lies to so many classmates over the years.

So instead, he wrote a vague quote.

R285 Elena Cunanan is blonde and blue-eyed, and in fact Pete was sure she wasn't his daughter.

[quote] Does anyone have a theory why Andrew's section is blank on [R393]? What does it mean??

It's not blank; it says "Après moi, le deluge" ("After me, the deluge"), the famous quotation made by Louis XIV that predicted that his reign, the zenith of the Bourbon dynasty, and disaster would follow afterward. (He was correct: his successor and grandson Louis XV bankrupted France with his many wars, and Louis XV's successor Louis XVI would reap the consequences with the French revolution.)

Cunanan wrote this in his yearbook to be ultradramatic and stand out (which is what he always tried to do). There's little indication it meant he knew he would go on to murder five people, but it's always cited as somehow prophetic by people who write about Cunanan.

There's no indication in the Orth book that Modesto molested Andrew, but perhaps another book has implied as much. It would not surprise me at all given how slavishly devoted Modesto was to Andrew (which has been corroborated) and how Andrew always sought old older daddy types to protect him and care for him. Although the show does not indicate it by casting someone younger than David Madson was when Cunanan killed him, Madson himself fit into this pattern, since he was several years older than Cunanan and Cunanan saw him as very successfully established as an architect in Minneapolis.

No book or newspaper ever stated not hinted he was molested.

Was there any evidence that he ever had any Asian-American friends (much less boyfriends)? Did he have any other relatives outside of his immediate family in the US?

The yearbook was discussed more here.

R414 From what I remember of Orth's book, Andrew was usually friends with white people and his known boyfriends all appear to have been white. Orth did mention racism towards Asian groups in San Diego.

Andrew probably had relatives from his mom's side of the family here in the US.

The performance that's actually impressed me the most throughout the whole season has been the off-Broadway Joanna Adler as Mary Ann Cunanan, Andrew's mother. It's a VERY hard role, because Mary Ann was utterly pathetic, miserable, and clingy, but Adler has really been knocking it out of the park as a woman who made terrible choices and is clinging to what little she has had.

Call me crazy, but I think Andrew's brother is quite attractive.

R418 [bold] CRAZYYY

The guy who played Andrew's tito was fake Filipino. He kept saying "dito, dito" (here, here), but then he pointed to the shack where Modesto was and repeated, "dito." He should've said, "doon" (over there).

Andrew was known for saying that he did not want to be ordinary. It was a fate worse than death to him.

Making the one cryptic statement rather than listing a bunch of bullshit clubs and achievements actually did make him stand out and made him seem quite mysterious.

Mission accomplished. And I do not believe that Pete molested Andrew nor do I feel it has been suggested by the movie. There are a lot of people here who look askance at any parent who is a bit "extra" with their kid(see Ivanka Trump.)

I had an overly enthusiastic parent due to the fact that he was so ridiculously proud to have produced me, and I can assure you I was never touched in any way sexually by him. And while it did not quite reach the Trump/Ivanka model, it was pretty damn close. I think Pete literally idolized Andrew because he thought he had the potential to be everything that Pete could not be. And on top of his impressive IQ, Andrew could "pass" as white or at the very least "white adjacent" which Pete could never do. It was an unhealthy relationship to be sure, but I don't believe it was sexually consummated in any fashion. That foot kissing scene, which may or may not be accurate, is probably the most extreme form of idolatry and "affection" which went on between them.

R420 It was obvious. His accent was different. He's probably either Japanese, Chinese or Korean.

A quick look at IMDB will tell y’all that the actor’s name is Ruben Madera. That’s a Filipino name.

Barbra Streisand's comments on the show:

"I binge-watched your show last night, Gianni Versace, but it's very scary to me. I have to go fast,” she adorably revealed. “I like the parts with Penelope Cruz and Edgar Ramirez [who play Donatella and Gianni Versace, respectively], but I don't like [Andrew Cunanan, whom Darren Criss plays]. He's so good that it's so awful.”

“Oh, this poor individual. Is any of this true stuff about him?” she asked Murphy, who replied with a resounding “Yes!” as the audience chuckled.

"That poor older guy he was with!” she remarked.

“Barbra, why did you watch that?” asked Murphy. “That’s not for you!”

[quote]she adorably revealed

Well, that never happened.

R423 Thats weird, he does not sound like a Filipino

R423, it's also a Latino name and he's played Hispanic characters throughout his career.

I'm enjoying this series way more than I had expected. Criss has exceeded my expectations as well.

I think the backwards timeline is a wonderful device, for the reasons noted in other threads, and also because I tend to glaze over early in movies with all the backstory thrown at me before I've found myself engaged in the story. I think this was a great way to get me (and probably others) riveted from the very beginning, and then slowly introduce the various life events that led to that murder.

I too have known people like Cunanan, during my time in NYC, and the running theme is always indeed entitlement and laziness. When I was in my 20s, I had to drop a few friends back in the 90s for being lazy (yet charming) users, and now only spend my time with people who have earned their own keep and am much happier for it in my late 40s.

I think when Pete was trying to read the bedtime story to young Andrew, that was an example of Pete promoting work, and trying to instill patience in his son, when his son was bored at the prospect of sitting up in bed and having to focus on a long story.

I think that if Pete had NOT molested Andrew as a boy, then it's really irresponsible to the gay audience to portray that. It adds fuel to the notion that gay sexuality is nurture, and not nature, and the result of some dysfunction.

I agree with all the posters who are distracted by Cruz' Castilian accent. I don't care if some of you "are Italian" or are "from Italy" or "know Donatella", I don't think you are listening carefully. I've spent a lot of time living in Spain AND in Italy, and the very first thing I noticed about Cruz' Donatella was the very Castilian lisp (which Cruz has in real life). Also Cruz is way too petite and cutesy to play this boorish Calabrian diva. It just doesn't ring true to me.

I am also annoyed that the Versaces don't speak Italian to each other in US or in Calabria, in this series. Would it have killed the production to have set up some subtitles for those few minutes? Let's have an air of authenticity, and celebrate Italian culture if we're going to profile these people. Italians in Italy do NOT speak English to each other...(and, they don't have Castilian accents). LOL.

I've enjoyed reading these threads. Some really great scoop and insight here.

[quote]In the yearbook, i'm guessing that other students wrote about their families, hobbies, etc. Andrew couldn't do that since he had told so many lies to so many classmates over the years.

I kind of remember the Orth book mentioning that Andrew didn't allow a lot of his friends to meet his family. Andrew for awhile rode with other Bishop's School students to school and that he didn't let them into his house. IIRC, he lived like 15 miles away and he was probably embarrassed that he didn't live in a nicer neighborhood.

Isn't it strange how we haven't heard anything about the upcoming season of AHS? Have they even started filming yet?

Murphy should really just pull the plug on AHS. It hasn’t been good since the first half of Freak Show.

Edgar Ramirez speaks Italian in real life, and I know Ricky spoke a little (at least was able to sing some) so it is a shame they didn't have them speak it on the show. Not sure about Cruz, maybe she didn't want to? Or the show runners didn't want to bother with it.

Mr. Ramirez looks uncannily like Versace and acts well, but Mr. Martin is a bust as his boytoy, visibly older, and a limp actor.

People wanting to watch this again is spookier than Andrew EVER was ;)

Forget Harvey Milk Day. We should have Andrew Cuanan Day!

R405 LOL! The real David was a sub bottom. It's part of the reason Andrew was so into him. Andrew was actually a top who hated to bottom.

[quote] "I binge-watched your show last night, Gianni Versace, but it's very scary to me. I have to go fast,” she adorably revealed.

GURRRL!!!

R433 who do you think should have played Antonio? I agree Ricky looks a bit too old - he looks older than Versace. They put makeup on him, but they can't quite hide the wrinkles.

I get why they chose Ricky, but there must be a hot Italian actor in Hollywood who could've done a good job.

^^^ Has Ricky been in the sun too much?

R427 Ruben Nepales wrote a book about being Filipino in Hollywood

Wrong Ruben. This one.

R431 I... have to agree.

And yeah, I know why Hollywood in general sometimes handles foreign languages that way, but it did irk me that two people whose first language is Italian would speak to each other in English with Italian accents when alone. I know it's implied they're not actually speaking English and it's for the benefit of the audience (I guess?), but I think both actors speak it and it just would have been better.

R442 How about they speak Italian with AMERICAN accents? Then we'd all be really plucking our hairs out!

r433=The New York Times.

R439 Yeah him loving tanning and the beach is one reason. He also smoked for a long time and his younger self was probably no stranger to hard drugs.

I agree, r433, and alas to that, for I love Ricky! Antonio needed some savoir-faire, some pizzazz of a sunny disposition, and Ricky played him doomy and gloomy, all hooded eyes and serious mien.

Well, gripes and all, I'll still want more after the final episode!

Antonio was 38 when Versace was slain. Ricky was 38 in 2009, and looked like this:

There was a time when everyone on TV spoke English, whatever language they were meant to be speaking. It was a trope and audiences just accepted. But now, it’s a cheap device and rather classless, as if it assumes the audience won’t stand for reading subtitles.

[quote] Isn't it strange how we haven't heard anything about the upcoming season of AHS? Have they even started filming yet?

We have heard and they don’t start filing until the summer, dope. It airs in October. Invest in a friggin calendar. It’s a ten episode show.

r449 Stop making shit up.

r450, AHS is not ACS.

And r449? Please add the post numbers with quotes. TIA.

The next season of AHS is set in the future. The show usually begins filming in late summer.

The next season of Feud doesn’t air until next year. There could be a year off in between seasons of ACS.

"American Horror Story" fans, start a thread! You are confusing people here!

Penelope acted in italian movies and she speaks good italian. Actually, her best performance outside spanish cinema was in an italian film, Non Ti Muovere: she was so good there that there was some oscar talk for her performance. check it out if you can.

r451 WTF are you talking about?

[QUOTE]You are confusing people here!

Not a particularly difficult task on the DL.

Witness r456, for an example.

I think Cunanan's yearbook quote is pretty cool

Likewise, r458. He was a smarty-pants kid!

That quote could be the mantra of the GOP or worse. Words for the narcissistic and sociopathic.

I think that Ryan Murphy is transforming television. He knows how to tell stories from the point of view of a gay man without alienating his straight audience.

R461 isn't anyone straight watching this Versace show or any of the other things Murphy has produced?

Is Jessica Lange coming back for next season's ACS? Murphy hinted that she might make an appearance. The show has gone downhill since she left.

AHS r463

I really enjoyed Lange on American Feud.

^i loved her in American Frances

R443 Well... yes... thanks for putting things in perspective.

[quote]I had an overly enthusiastic parent due to the fact that he was so ridiculously proud to have produced me

R461 TRUE.

They seem close

How flirtatious...

R411, Louis XV said, "Apres moi, le deluge," not Louis XIV, as you said. Actually, the original quotation was "Apres nous, le deluge" and was spoken by Madame Dr Pompadour, mistress of Louis XV. Louis replaced plural nous with singular moi. He said it after the French lost the Battle of Rossbach in 1757, during the Seven Years War.

Finally watched the latest episode.

I'll reiterate that I thought it was the strongest episode yet. Jon Jon Briones was fantastic, man he knocked it out of the park. Darren Criss did well also, Matt Bomer was able to pull a pretty strong performance out of him.

The episode did a great job of capturing the oddity of Andrew's childhood. Though they left out when he tested at a high IQ in 3rd grade, that helped cement Andrew as special in his parents eyes.

I will agree that it really bugged me that the scenes of Versaces childhood in Italy were in English? Really? We are way past the point where stuff like that is necessary, you can have it in Italian with subtitles. That felt distracting lowbrow for what is meant to be "prestige" television.

[quote]Words for the narcissistic and sociopathic.

Preach, I can't believe we gave some Andrew-lites who found his yearbook quote cool. It is so self-centered, boastful and cringey. It typifies Andrew well, but some people should take a hard look in the mirror at themselves.

Interesting outfit on Edgar. Is the suit suede, cordoroy, velour?

It must be felt

Do you think Jwan allowed Ricky to fuck Edgar

[quote] and was spoken by Madame Dr Pompadour,

Madame de Pompadour was not a Doctor.

Madame de Pompadour had her own Dr. Who episode.

Edgar should just come out already. Be like Versace and do a spread in The Advocate.

Edgar is the last hope Venezuela has, he probably just doesn't want to fuck it up by coming out.

[quote]Do you think Jwan allowed Ricky to fuck Edgar

Of course it would've been allowed

As I was watching episode 8, I thought something was missing. Later, I realized what it was -- there was no *watery moment* in the episode. Almost all of the previous episodes had a moment of watery submersion, that acted either as a metaphorical baptism/cleansing or an excuse to show off male nudity. (As was mentioned in the video done by James Corden.)

Some of them are parallel to each other, some are not.

In Episode 7, Andrew and David have a hot shower together in a fancy hotel room, vs. Episode 4, Andrew and David "cleanse the sin" of Jeff's murder while washing the blood off -- note that both of them are semi clothed, interesting touch.

In Episode 6, Andrew swims naked and alone in Norman's pool, vs Episode 2, Gianni swims (clothed) in his mansion's pool, sharing a moment with Antonio

Episode 2, Andrew showers at the beach while chatting with a new friend. I think this one is just to show of Darren in his thong.

Episode 2, Andrew showers in the hotel room while wearing duct tape over his head. This one is to cleanse the sin of killing Lee Miglin.

Episode 1, Andrew wades into the water and screams at the ocean. This could be considered another cleansing (to atone for killing Versace), but he's not really remorseful as much as he is angry and crazy.

[quote]I agree, [R433], and alas to that, for I love Ricky! Antonio needed some savoir-faire, some pizzazz of a sunny disposition, and Ricky played him doomy and gloomy, all hooded eyes and serious mien.

That's because almost all his scenes were with either dead Gianni or a disapproving Donatella. He was up and smiling when it was just him and Gianni out at the disco. There was a purpose to it.

R468 You can't conceive of such a thing can you? Are you a parent?

Also Modesto/Pete Cunanan is apparently died. He died in the Philippines before Mary Ann passed.

dead*

[quote]So is Cody Fern really gay?

Well he likes speedos

Great post R486

Speaking of water, this show needs MORE as far as emotion goes.

[quote]Episode 1, Andrew wades into the water and screams at the ocean. This could be considered another cleansing (to atone for killing Versace), but he's not really remorseful as much as he is angry and crazy.

This is such a trite overused image. And it didn't read crazy at all, just shouting.

R486, maybe because episode 8 had a different director.

Maureen Orth says Jon Jon Briones was her favorite

[quote]Maureen Orth, who wrote the book this season of Crime Story is based on, marveled at the accuracy of Briones’s portrayal. “I interviewed Pete Cunanan,” said the author. “And when I saw Jon Jon, I thought I was watching [Pete] on the screen.”

[quote] maybe because episode 8 had a different director.

There have been 5 different directors for this series.

So tonight's episode will likely be about the whole houseboat suicide. It will be interesting to see how Ryan can use that to tie a nice little bow on his series. Can't imagine how since it's basically just Andrew offing himself.

If they’re smart, they’ll cycle through the main beats of the entire story again in twenty minutes or so, only this time in chronological order, leading up to the pulling of the trigger. Blackout.

The reviewers were given the first 8 episodes, so what happens in this one is the big black box.

Andrew killed himself?! Spoiler alert, bitches!

I'm sure they will also belabor the point that the cops still never found Andrew, and his reign of terror only ended when he took his own life.

Maybe they'll bring the ghost of Gianni back. Except instead of being a tailor this time he'll be the angel of death.

Gianni will sprout giant wings, kiss Andrew on the forehead, forgive him and take him up to heaven. Cuz, you know, misunderstood homosexual and all.

So has our boy Dolan fucked Cody yet?

My favorite part of Andrew's yearbook is not the pretentious quote but the full-on cookie-smelling look on his face

Miss Cody Fern looks pretty in the R495 pciture.

[quote] He died in the Philippines before Mary Ann passed.

What did Mary Ann? A kidney stone?

My poor friends in the UK are traumatized tonight because Episode 4, the one where Trainer and Madson were murdered, just aired on BBC2. There weren’t any commercials to give them a break.

Cody is gay and has a bf. Before it was publicly announced he was cast, his entire IG was full of cute pics of them. The bf was pretty femme (lots of dresses, etc.). He deleted everything the night before his episode aired and did a new aesthetic.

Let me clarify my comment above -- he could also be bi.

While it is not hard for me to believe Cody is gay, I've argued he seemed gay in interviews, if he deleted his insta account he did it before his episode aired. I remember searching for it around the time of the premiere and it was down.

And surely you screen capped an image if you saw him showing off a boyfriend on insta?

That's what I'm saying. I never saw that his IG was down, but the day before (I think that was when, give or take a day or so), all these new photos showed up in my feed. Because he deleted the rest and started over. And "surely?" No. I didn't screenshot because I did not care at all. I follow too many people to go around screenshotting. I followed him after he did an interview stating he was in ACS but couldn't say who he played. I really don't care to prove it - that's what I saw.

I spoke too soon - here's stuff from his bf or w/e he is.

Badass, you came through big time. Glad to have that hunch confirmed.

Wow what gay face.

Haha r517, I find it adorable that Cody's boyfriend is this super femmy queen. The type of guy most DLers would say gross to.

Cody is a top!

This guy says what you bitches are thinking

[quote]He's too hot for me tbh

What are you guys talking about? They look straight to me. Just brahs dong brah stuff.

OK, what do we think about the final episode? It seemed a bit busy to me. Not exactly satisfying, although there were some good scenes. Maybe it was supposed to represent the confusion in Andrew’s mind?

[quote]what do we think about the final episode?

I think it doesn't air for another hour.

Damn. Every with every actor sucking up to Ryan Murphy, the winner is Ricky Martin. He is in talks with him to develop a starring vehicle for him.

[quote]"I want to give Ricky [Martin] his own show," executive producer Ryan Murphy tells E! News. "He and I have been talking about that, so we are working on that. I feel the same way about Ricky as I did Sarah Paulson when I gave her Marcia Clark—which is, I knew Sarah was capable of anything. Ricky is, too. I knew that, given the opportunity, he could really surprise people."

Ricky is a horrible actor, I can’t imagine him carrying a show.

r524........they so fucked.....probably did a 3way with him

R486, Nice analyses! You know we'll be looking for the "watery" in the final episode!

"Will all great Neptune's ocean wash this blood clean from my hand? No, this my hand will rather the multitudinous seas incarnadine, making the green one red." (Macbeth, 2, 2)

Cody and his beau have been together for a while, they have a couples pic from May '16.

Gayer than unicorns prancersizing.

R524 Murphy has a crush on Ricky, huh

Stephen King has tweeted about the show. He's a big fan. Ryan Murphy just held an event with Barbra Streisand who announced she's binged watched it and had to ff through all of Daren Criss's scenes because he scares her.

Holy shit! I've been trying to get a read on Cody Fern but couldn't. His brother Jayden's gay. I don't think his mother knows. She says in one post that her "son" is gay and posts a picture a "Jayden" but not Cody. She wasn't thrilled at first but is accepting. I wonder if he hasn't come out to her yet. Wow. I did find one post where he said that a guy looked like a totally "daddy" but that was about it. There were a few with girls and one where he like a joke about a girl and a blow job. So I was sure. Jesus. I guess he really is gay. Maybe bi?

Never mind -- if that's his boyfriend, there's a video on that Instagram account with Cody's brother Emerson, so I guess his family would be aware, unless they're totally retarded. Amazingly, the family doesn't make any references to it. Cody's brother is gay, gay, GAY on Facebook. I mean REALLY gay, along with his party. Nothing about Cody at all.

My sister and I are both gay r533. I swear gay clusters in families.

Because its in the genes.

[quote] if that's his boyfriend,

...Is this something that is in doubt to you lol?

There are multiple photos of them kissing, photos of them labeled as bae and bf, people calling them their favorite couple. I don't know how it could be more transparent.

I have enjoyed this thread almost more than I've enjoyed the show. Actually, the rapier wit of DL has enhanced the experience. We have the series on DVR and watch each new ep on Thursday. I'm watching it live tonight. I love you DL, and have since David E linked me here from Salon.com in 1999!

So THIS is the boyfriend? lmao.

I want to commend these threads for staying sane. The "Feud" threads started off great here, but a couple of deranged posters went crazy in them and forced me to stop going to.

[quote]I will agree that it really bugged me that the scenes of Versaces childhood in Italy were in English? Really? We are way past the point where stuff like that is necessary, you can have it in Italian with subtitles.

This is so stupid. It is filmed for an English speaking audience.

Which is why you have subtitles r540.

Countless shows and movies have scenes that take place in another language now. It is pretty old-school to be afraid of that.

Cody and his boyfriend appear to go back together a pretty long time, at least early 2016. That's a lifetime in gay years. However, the boyfriend is only 22, Cody is going to be 30 this year! The boyfriend is a stylist. lmao! Poor Cody. The boyfriend is from Virginia. I hope Cody knows what he's doing and this little twink doesn't get vindictive and outs him when he dumps his ass when he pulls a fast one.

If Cody was that scared out of being outed he would have had Eric delete all those pictures. He clearly wants to keep it low-key, he is not tagged in any of them, but he did allow it to be left on the internet.

Judith Light is back!

Too bad Judith isn't in the running for an Emmy.

Judith Light should be in movies and getting Streep 's role. Is is a fucking great actress.

Judith Light is great...at giving the Judith Light performance. Let's be honest, it tends to be pretty samesy.

[quote] Andrew killed himself?!

No, Rose: he lived, and married the woman now known as Michelle Bachmann.

And glad we saw Max Greenfield again as well. Doing a tour of all these guest stars through the season.

God, I hope we don’t get Bette Midler’s woefully untalented daughter again.

R541, And countless that don't.

Loved seeing Judith and Max again!

Couldn’t Andrew get Chinese delivery from what was in that bitch’s handbag?

Uh, oh, Cody's beau has a shady past, lots of drug problems, plastic surgery, alias, etc. He's known online.

Where was he staying and how come he didn’t know he/she would be back at any time?

"I'll hold you like I used to"

I'm sure you would love that Pete.

That Andrew was molested by his father is the show invention that makes me the most uncomfortable.

R555, There is no molestation in the show. Some viewers are inferring.

Where were the owners of the houseboat?

You’re projecting your own twisted fantasy onto this show. The show has nothing to do with incest. It’s all in your head.

The show's implication was his father molested him r556.

That's like saying the show never claimed Versace had AIDS, sure they never directly said it, but the obvious implication was there.

No twirly über gay prancing about this episode? Will there be a montage at the end?

The FBI did fuck up pretty bad. I hope Marilyn actually did read them like this in real life.

Marilyn is still a bitch because she had others cover up that her husband was gay.

[quote]Marilyn is still a bitch because she had others cover up that her husband was gay.

What does this even mean? A straight woman doesn't want people to think her husband (who she has kids with) is gay so that makes her "a bitch"?

To all the people asking about the Houseboat. The entire thing is pretty mysterious. Maureen Orth says it point blank, no one in the Miami Police Dept thought it was random Cunanan was able to hide out on that houseboat.

The owner of the Houseboat was Torsten Reineck. He is a shady character who owned a gay bathhouse in Las Vegas.

There was even a possible connection to Versace. But once Andrew died the case was basically closed, these things weren't investigated further.

[quote]At 4:30 P.M., the first inkling that the houseboat might not be a random location was introduced when the Miami Beach police lieutenant who was the liaison with the Drug Enforcement Administration in Miami informed Navarro of a “possible connection” between the houseboat owner, Torsten Reineck, and Gianni Versace. . But there was so much going on right then that no one followed up on the lead.

[quote]Countless shows and movies have scenes that take place in another language now. It is pretty old-school to be afraid of that.

It's not a question of being afraid of it. 1/3 of the movies I watch are in other languages.

People like you are silly. It's not realty. You saying, "If the character is Italian, he must speak Italian" is tantamount to saying, "If a scene takes place at the Vatican, it must be filmed at the Vatican. You can't use a set!" It's a movie; licenses are taken.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

hated how it ended.

What was that hallway? The mausoleum of the unclaimed?

Yeah, it was a pretty low-key ending. Shocked by how much focus there was on Marilyn Miglin.

The best part was Ricky/Antonio realizing how he was going to be cast aside now that Gianni is dead. It was sad how Antonio D'amico was treated. It is nice that show has been able to tell his story to a wider audience.

[quote]What was that hallway? The mausoleum of the unclaimed?

No, it wasn't a mausoleum of the unclaimed. Andrew's mother claimed his body and the remains were put in a mausoleum connected to a Catholic church. A funeral mass was held on the mother's request.

Was Edgar Ramirez’ name in the final credits? I didn’t see it.

R565, your Vatican analogy is flat out stupid. The Americans is one of the greatest series ever, not least because it used subtitles when necessary.

Nice touch of the Archbishop (or whatever he was) not allowing Antonio to kiss his ring.

That was a letdown of an ending.

I liked the song at the beginning, though.

The show was nicer to Andrew's family than they had to be. His Father wasn't only one blatantly trying to cash in on Andrew's murders, his siblings were just as bad.

But they are still alive, so I guess better not to go there.

So Skeletella hated this because she comes off as a bitch?

Thanks for the clarification, r570. The way it was presented it looked like a modern day Potter's Field

[quote]Was Edgar Ramirez’ name in the final credits? I didn’t see it.

He was the first actor listed, before Darren Criss.

Judith Light should've been cast in Big Little Lies Season 2.

Skeletella pretty much admitted years ago that she disliked Antonio and there was some media coverage about the mistreatment of Antonio and the court battle over the inheritance. Skeletella and the other Versace family members are pissed that this show brought up how they disliked Antonio and the Versace family knows that people these days are a bit more gay friendly and will sympathize with Antonio.

Not a big enough name, R577/bitch!

The dreaded appearance of “M” makes it official: this thread has gone to shit. The end.

It was fun, guys. See you at threads for the next Ryan Murphy production.

Have a good night.

Get back to shaving the hair off your buddy Harvey Weinstein's back, M.

I 've loved Edgar Ramirez for years. I'm glad he got a TV show since this will make more people aware of him. I think he is an amazing actor.

Darren Criss on the finale

[quote]"This is a guy who could have gone to court," Criss says."He could have stretched it out forever. He could have been Charles Manson. If he was looking for fame and notoriety then he could have stuck with that. He could have been incarcerated and continued to be on magazines for the rest of his life. He adds, "This is a guy who has curated his entire life's story very specifically, to the T. His backstory, what his parents did. Different people knew different versions of him because he was very specific of how his image would appear and what his story was. So I think he must have come to a point where he realized that if he was incarcerated, that narrative was taken away from him and the only way to control or almost canonize his notoriety and infamy would be to take his own life."

[quote]We had done the People v. O.J. Simpson, which wasn’t really about O.J. Simpson,” Brad Simpson explains. “The surprise of that show was that O.J. Simpson was really a supporting character. After the first two episodes he just sits in court until the finale. Really it was about the lawyers. We were surprised by the way people thought the Versaces would be leads instead of supporting characters.”

[quote]According to Simpson, when the Versace team was figuring out episodes 3 and 4 of the season, which involve the deaths of Lee Miglin, Jeff Trail, David Madson, and William Reese, they felt it would be “disrespectful” to cut away from the deaths of these four men simply to spend time in the more luxurious and high-profile world of the Versaces. Though he concedes the story of the Versaces after Gianni’s murder was more “melodramatic,” he worried delving too deep into that world would result in criticizing the famous fashion family and break the rule of the season, which was to not “demonize” the victims in any way.

Thanks for the reminder that Cuba Gooding Jr was hideously miscast as OJ.

Anyone know what's next for Ramirez? He should be a huge star by now with his talent.

Him and Penelope are supposed to be reuniting for a movie together.

[quote]It was sad how Antonio D'amico was treated.

So odd that Donatella was so disgusted by someone she viewed as a kept boy. She was married to a former male model who certainly wasn't attracted to her delicate features.

Interestingly, her husband wasn't depicted that I saw.

R588 Well Antonio's gay, probably constantly reminded her Gianni was gay, probably viewed him as a gold digger and enabler for Gianni's ~lifestyle~, and was probably jealous that Gianni had another real close person to him that wasn't her or his niece.

Did Antonio really attempt suicide? It is sad how he was treated.

[quote] Interestingly, her husband wasn't depicted that I saw.

He had practically no lines, but he was in the early 2 episodes.

I thought the last episode was well done. Overall I would have to say the series was quite good. Definetly worth watching.

The finale was okay but the last episode, directed by Matt Bomer, was the best episode of the season in my opinion and gave more insight into Andrew. Jon Jon Briones and Darren were excellent in the episode.

Also once again the best part of this episode (besides Judith who was wonderful) was Andrew's father making an appearance. Jon Jon Briones really captured that selfish, sell-everyone-out attitude perfectly. The best scene was Andrew watching his father on TV using him as an opportunity to make money.

This series was terrific. Everyone did was great job. Very surprising how great Bomer did with directing as well. I'm also glad that they knew to stop it with 9 episodes.

Interesting how one of the last scenes had Donatella staring at her reflection in the Medusa medallion. She is now both the face of Versace and a Gorgon.

What was interesting too was that they had Penelope Cruz's face before that shot look very puffy from crying, and so when she looked into the distorting Medusa medallion image worked into in the mirror she really looked hideous--it intentionally foretold what Donatella would soon do to her face with all the horrible disfiguring plastic surgery. (By cosmic irony, she has become the Medusa that brands Versace)

I loved the creepy last scene with the close up of Cunanan's marble memorial stone in the mausoleum, and then the traveling shot to reveal all the hundreds of exactly similar memorial stones in the hallways of the mausoleum. In the end he became exactly what he most dreaded being--just one among the masses, like everyone else.

R572, the song at the opening of the finale was "Vienna" by Ultravox.

R507 It had that same effect on me, I could not watch another episode for quite a while.

boring finale. shockingly lackluster....matts episode was the best one, seemd more polished and poised than the amateurish other ones...

Pose looks so very shallow. wtf up with r murphy???

hey ry ry: do one on aaron queen Hernandez...

Judith Light deserves an Emmy for her performance as that cold bitch m miglin.....

I have never liked Marilyn Miglin, but it has nothing to do with her behavior surrounding the murder of Lee. I just can't take her pushing blabbing and selling on HSN. However, I can't believe that some of you would call her out for pretending that Lee was not gay. It's one thing to be an out and proud gay man, but can't you understand WHY she wouldn't be out and happily declaring her dead husband to have been in the closet throughout their 40 year marriage? Good lord, that is not homophobic, that is denial used to deflect serious pain and hold onto sanity.

If someone in the story is a homophobic bitch, it is Donatella. She may have loved her brother like a god, but she hated the gay in him and in his lover.

~FIN~