American Crime Story: Versace Thread 4

Cody Fern is a good actor, but he really doesn't have a good face for TV or movies. I think he'd have a better stage career.

Has Ryan Murphy announced yet what will be the topic for season 3?

So boring. Couldn't finish episode four. Darren Criss is cute, though.

I never started watching the show because I am familiar enough with Ryan Murphy series to have predicted everyone’s criticisms here: interesting premise, questionable approach to narrative, a few cute gay actors, a few talented actors, and then everything unravels into an incoherent or boring mess no one wants to finish. That’s been every season of AHS since Coven, and I felt the same way about Bette and Joan except I stuck it out because I am interested in the actresses who were potrayed (questionably).

I missed most of episode 4. I got too sleepy; and yes, r2, it got boring quick.

The problem they had with this season was there was no trial for Cunanan, so they couldn;t begin with him getting arrested like they did for OJ and then jump back and forth in time between the trial and the crime.

If they started with Cunana's adoelscence, and then moved forward in time to the big event (the assassination of Versace) in the second to last episode (that is, a week before he shot himself), then since most series lose vewers after the first episode, they'd have almost no viewers by the time they got to the big event. So they decided to start with the crime, move backwards, go to his adolescence, and then in the last episode they'd get the wrap-up.

This was they guaranteed they'd at least get a lot of viewers for the first episode (because they knew people would want to tune in to see Versace get shot), and hoped they could generate enough interest in Cunanan to keep viewer interest going. It was a big risk, but it was likely they'd lose viewers as they went at an alarming rate.

But the problem is that Cunanan is just not very interesting--he's not deep at all, but just a shallow little psychopath. The episode had some genuinely great episodes at #3 and #4 because they were vehicles fr great acting for Cody Fern and (especially) Judith Light, but there's not much at this point to keep anyone watching.

Ryan Murphy did not actually write this show r3.

Show runners actually do the most plotting and the most re-writing on most cable mini-series, r6, even when they're not credited. Murphy's hand is very much in the script.

R6 The shows he produces are consistently aimless, with far more style over substance. TV series’ qualities are variable, but I’ve seen few that so dependably fall apart partway through as his productions.

If Murphy does a Trump/Russian season- Judith Light can play Kellyanne.

Judith Light would be a great Kellyanne!

Season 3 should be Claudine Longet and Spider Sabitch - Aspen in the '70s ...

[quote]Judith Light would be a great Kellyanne!

They’d have to age her.

R12 Agreed. I’d love to hear Judith’s trained theatre voice strained to do that harsh Kellyanne whine.

On thing about this business about jumping back and forth in time - it makes me want to warn the characters not to go wherever they seem intent on going.

The show does seem a little cheaply produced. There aren't that many people in the cast after the first two episodes.

France's Conroy for Kellyanne. Absolutely.

Now, where could we fit Denis O'Hare? He needs to be involved.

Gabourey Sidibe for Sarah Huckabee Sanders.

Perfect match.

My choices for Season 3:

*The Marilyn Sheppard murder in 1954, which received nationwide headlines and inspired by the TV show and the movie "The Fugitive." The jailed suspect, Dr. Sam Sheppard, was exonerated years after he was convicted,but his life was ruined.

* The Sunny von Bulow case. Would love to see someone else play Claus and Sunny and the von Bulow and von Auersperg children 25 years after the movie with Jeremy Irons and Glenn Close (preferably with that asshole Alan Dershowitz not exalted this time). Mark Strong could be Claus, and Michelle Pfeiffer could be Sunny.

* The trial of millionaire Harry K. Thaw for murdering the greatest architect of his day, Stanford White, in 1906 on the rooftop of Madison Square Garden (which White had designed) for fucking his wife, the great sex symbol of the day Evelyn Nesbit.

* the kidnapping and murder of the Lindbergh baby in 1932

[quote] and inspired by the TV show and the movie "The Fugitive."

Sorry, that should read "and which inspired the TV show and the movie "The Fugitive.""

Looking forward to the next installlment.

Von Bulow and Lindbergh, excellent choice

I think the 1990 murder of pregnant lawyer Carol Stuart by her husband Chuck would be good for ACS. Chuck didn't want a kid and set up the murder in a bad part of Boston and claimed black man car jacked and shot them.

R22, that was done already in 1990, a TV movie starring Ken Olin called "Goodnight Sweet Wife: A Murder in Boston."

R23 That might not matter. There was a TV movie about Cunanan in the late 90s and there was a CBS mini-series about the OJ Simpson case sometime in the early 2000s. True crime stories have been revisited many times.

Season 3 is about the hospital during Katrina and season 4 is about Clinton's blowjob.

Was Andrew Cunanan as big a girl as he is being portrayed in this?

I just can't imagine a prostitute being successful if he were such a big ole queen.

I may have missed it but I have to ask -- what happened to the dog? Did the dog get murdered too? Don't keep us in suspense, Ryan Murphy!

The dog -- Prints was the name, I think -- was left behind. The coworker heard the dog when they came to check on him.

It's Prints (not Prince) and it survived.

I think one of the most intriguing mysteries about this whole story is what David was thinking over the course of those missing days. If he had escaped, I think Andrew would have been captured and none of us would be talking about this.

The dog was actually a Dalmatian. The mutt they hired just couldn't pull off the look.

Episode 4 and episode 5 were definitely the highlight of the season.

Is there not a new episode this week?

It’s really a disturbing and unsettling story - hard to watch

r33 No. Next episode is a week from Weds.

Does anyone know why Cunanan and Jeff Trail had a falling out in California?

That'll probably be the next episode r36.

Edgar Ramirez is up for the role of the villain in the next Bond film.

I just read that Trail got fed up of Cunanan's lies and the final straw was when he asked Trail to help him sell drugs.

The next ACS should be about the Jon Benet Ramsey case.

R40 They have to wait until the father dies.

Murphy made a mistake in putting the Versace/Cunanan case second in the series. He lost all the amazing momentum and critical success of the OJ show. He should have gone with a meatier case that had more widespread appeal, like Jon Benet or the Sunny Von Bulow murder.

I vote NEVER on Sunny Von Bulow.

I just can't take having to see that obnoxious dipshit Alan Dershowitz. Or anything that makes him out to be a genius.

Besides, I think the Glenn Close movie will be hard to top.

Could they do the Natalie Wood drowning? Probably not, because you know that Robert Wagner would sue.

R44 Wagner is pretty old and if he was to die within a year or two I could see Murphy and the other EPs immediately planning a Natalie Wood season. But, Natalie's two daughters still support Wagner and I could see them suing.

R38 is he going to be playing Raoul Silva's (Javier Bardem) younger brother who wants to avenge his brother's death, but also wants to fuck Bond? B/c I'd watch that...

(in my mind Bardem and Ramirez look alike, but I could be way off. Either way, they're both sexy Hispanic guys)

They wouldn't able to do Jon Benet, the father and brother would freak the fuck out. Donatella and Antonio are just griping but Ramsey's would threaten to sue.

Anyway Katrina is the next season with Clinton/Lewinsky being the fourth season. Those will get ratings back up since people actually know what those are and there's no homoeroticism.

Problem is Murphy's shows get worse with each season. Katrina probably went from an 8/10 to a 7/10 just for being changed from second to third season.

Except, r24, the Ken Olin version is terrific.

Oh, man. A Clinton hit-job right around the next Presidential election.

As for Von Bulow, BT, DT: "The 1990 film Reversal of Fortune was based on Dershowitz's books about the case, with Glenn Close playing Sunny and Jeremy Irons playing Claus von Bülow, a performance for which he was awarded an Academy Award for Best Actor." (Wikipedia)

[quote]The dog was actually a Dalmatian. The mutt they hired just couldn't pull off the look.

Don't you hate it when they cast actors who don't look like the people they're playing?

R49 At least republican hypocrisy will probably be something shown in that season.

Like Gingrich wanting Clinton impeached and then showing his adulterous ways.

I wish Ryan Murphy would keep coming up with his great premises for TV shows and then hand off the writing to more competent people. It’s frustrating that he comes up with great ideas and then squanders them through shitty execution.

Why not aPatty Hearst season?

R52 He didn't write this show

R54 See someone’s explanation above. Yes, he is the creator and the showrunner and he dictates the plotting even if he isn’t credited with writing weekly scripts.

Once you watch a couple of Ryan Murphy shows, you recognize how Ryan Murphy mangles storytelling.

[18] is brilliant with the suggestion for a Thaw/White/Nesbitt series. The Nesbitt story is one that is riveting and sadly forgotten for the most part.

The Versace series is a study of the closet and the damage and pain it causes--seen from various angles.

It will be interesting how Norman Blachford is portrayed. He is the rich everyman (if there is such a thing) that somehow came out of this Cunanan mess alive and yet prospers into his 80s.

This is really hard to watch. I couldn't even get through episode 4. There is absolutely nothing redeeming about Cunanan, he is just a one dimensional monster. Not interesting in the least.

That’s too bad, R57. Serial killers should be entertaining and charismatic, aspirational figures. If they’re shown to be uninteresting and unlikeable, what will motivate the next generation of great serial killers?

Katrina? This sounds like a flop and how does production avoid multiple law suits in a Clinton/Lewinsky project?

Re suits: what happened with the De Havilland case re Fued? Blood suckers probably got a few M for their effort.

Un hello, aren’t we overdue for FEUD: Kyle vs. Kim? The whole season will be set in the back of a limo.

R55 If you’ve seen London Spy on BBC you’ll see that Versace is much closer to a Tom Rob Smith show than a Ryan Murphy show

Let us know when the gratuitous Jessica Lange musical number episode comes along.

FEUD: SJP vs. Kim Cattrall.

The first episode takes place at the Elmer's Glue factor -- and then it works its way, backwards in time, to SATC's first table read.

I agree r61. Obviously as executive producer Ryan Murphy's influence is in the script and Tom was consulting with him a lot, but Tom Rob Smith literally wrote this entire thing, everything episode. And the writing does remind me of London Spy.

Tom Rob Smith is an excellent writer, but Murphy has the final say. Murphy's shows always lose steam. More important, did he and Brad Falchuk ever falfuck?

I liked London Spy, but there were some really silly things thrown into the mix.

Brad Falchuk looks like either a smarmy (and marginally attractive) Hollywood DB or a dopey lead singer of a cheesy cover band depending on which mom bob he is rocking at any given time.

Here he is wearing an outfit taken directly off an Abercrombie and Fitch mannequin.

Yes there was r66. People want to say Murphy's show off the rails, London Spy went off the rails hard.

There first couple of episodes I was such a big fan, by the finale it was just silly and ridiculous.

[quote]Besides, I think the Glenn Close movie will be hard to top.

Said no one, ever.

Oh dear R10, I didn't know poor people get to post in this thread

Given that the show has taken so many leaps, I bet it portrays Cunanan as having murdered Lincoln Aston. That will be the big surprise.

They got a drifter to "confess", but come on. Cunanan discovered the man's body with his head bashed in. What are the chances?

My favorite historical tidbit bout Andrew: His parents gave him the master bedroom.

And they wonder why . . .

I loved London Spy, the Assassination of Gianni Versace can't hold a candle to it.

I liked how London Spy started. And then actors.

But each episode got more and more far-fetched. Until I could no longer say, "Girl, PLEASE!" enough.

Yep r74. London Spy had three great episodes, but in the final two episodes the series lost its way. It made me sad because I was growing to love it.

Oh well, the show did treat us to Ben Whisaw grabbing Edward Holcroft's ass, for which I am thankful.

[quote]Oh well, the show did treat us to Ben Whisaw grabbing Edward Holcroft's ass, for which I am thankful.

As was Ben, presumably.

I love you r58.

A few points (after catching up on the series this weekend):

(1) I agree with those that say Cunanan had Madson in a bind with regard to calling the police following Jeffrey Trail's murder: if Madson had managed to subdue (or even kill) Cunanan and called the police, how would he have proven that he hadn't also killed Trail? That's not to say he shouldn't have tried to do something (anything) to escape from Cunanan, just saying it may explain why he stayed and went along with Cunanan's wishes;

(2) I agree with a poster on the NYT website who said they are not waiting for some grand explanation for why Cunanan did what he did -- he was a just a loser who gave into his demons to become a killer, period. The series at this point is really more about telling the stories of his victims, the ones whose lives and untimely deaths did not get the attention they deserved because they unfortunately were not famous like his final victim, Versace. Granted, a lot of what it's portraying is going strictly by what the writer THINKS may have happened based on Orth's book and other various reporting, but I still think it makes for riveting storytelling and performances from a cast of first-rate actors. Cunanan is just the unfortunate glue at the center of it all that connects them all together;

(3) Each time someone (or maybe it's one person) posts video of the real Jeffrey Trail giving that interviews in shadows of what it was like being gay in the military, I cannot bring myself to watch it. There is just something too sad (and also creepy) about it for me. Just no desire to hear a voice from the grave I suppose. May he (and all of Cunanan's victims) rest in peace.

For those saying it may not be likely that Judith Light, Mike Farrell, and Cody Fern will get recognized with Emmy noms due to the fact there's no "guest star" category for limited series, I think they will all have a chance to be nominated but in the supporting acting categories for limited series. I think that's the only logical place for them to go and I think all three will be nominated (and certainly Judith if not Mike and Cody). I would not be surprised to see Finn get in there, too.

I think Darren will get a nomination for lead actor in a limited series.

You can't really put them in the same category. Judith and Mike are in one episode. Cody is going to be in like 3 or 4, it is actually a supporting role.

That means nothing.....ask Beatrice Staight and Judy Densh.

R80, I agree, just pointing out that if Mike and Judith are submitted for consideration -- and end up with enough votes for a nomination -- the supporting categories may be the only place they can go because there is no "guest star" category for limited series. I'm not an expert at how the Emmys work, just saying I don't know of any other avenue in which to recognize their work.

Perhaps the "guest star" categories for regular series could be expanded to include performances from limited series. Have they ever done anything like that before?

Don't I get any awards love?

[quote]Perhaps the "guest star" categories for regular series could be expanded to include performances from limited series. Have they ever done anything like that before?

I don't think the rule will change. If it did some people would be complaining quite a bit.

Hi DLers, I didn't get to ask before, but how did some of you come to know about Imelda Marcos?Just curious..

R85 she was highly publicized for her extravagant taste as First Lady of the Phillipines during the 80's/90's (I think). She had a ton of shoes.

I would love it if this show won some Emmy awards, it deserves them, particularly for acting. But I'm skeptical that it will, because the entire show is probably considered too gay to be accepted by the mainstream Emmy voting audience.

Which is ironic, since the point of the show is about *acceptance* in larger society.

If Joan and Bette didn't win Emmys why would this show?

Feud was up against BLL which won every single award.

As always with these things it depends on the competition, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see this series go empty handed come Emmy night though.

R86 Thanks! 😊

Joan and Bette was 1000 times better than the unwatchable frau shitfest B LL but still no Emmys.

Feud was campy, RuPaul's Snatch Game acting. BLL actually had good acting.

Theres something about Criss' body that annoys TF out of me. I think his legs are way too short for his body, and he has lady hips.

Maybe short but nice muscles.

TPTB should have informed the announcer on how to pronounce Versace. He says ver-sah-CHEE. The family says vair-sah-CHAY.

And how to pronounce Gianni. It's not Gee-on-ee. More like Jawn-ee. (similar to Johnny)

Criss is 5 inches too short

To feminine bottoms who are obsessed with a guy being taller than themselves r97.

[quote]Criss is 5 inches too short

Now, now -- we don't know how big his dick is.

Anyone know whatever happened to Jon Hackett? That’s who Jeff Trail was dating at the time of his death they said in the book and it was his birthday that weekend? That has to be a lot to live with each bday.

Darren fangirls on twitter are squealing about Darren threatening to jump over Ricky's fence

Why isn't it on tonight?

R101 is that an innuendo?

R102, it appears everybody wanted to get out of the way of the Olympics this week. Pretty much all the shows across the dial are repeats.

R103 Unfortunately no.

I know this was mentioned on the previous threads for ACS, but I just rewatched the episode with Max Greenfield, and all I have to say is WOW. He's not acting as much as he is being the embodiment of a tired, dirty, Miami Beach hustler. I hadn't seen him in anything else prior, but after seeing some of the other things he has done, I am blown away with what he did here. It's easy to overlook his performance because it just seems so natural and real.

“American Crime Story: The Assassination of Gianni Versace” continued to be a strong performer in the Live +7 rankings for Feb. 5-11.

Episode 4 of the FX series grew by o.6 points (0.3 to 0.9) in adults 18-49 with a week of delayed viewing, tied for the largest adults 18-49 gain of the week. Its total-viewer bump of 1.79 million people ranks second behind “The Alienist” (1.8 million), and “Versace” also ranks at or near the top of the percentage-boost charts.

R102, probably because it's President's day week and a lot are traveling, not much TV.

[quote] probably because it's President's day week and a lot are traveling

President's day WEEK? That is not a thing.

Yes some people were off Monday ( I wasn't), but it is not some huge holiday.

It DOES exist. For instance, at least 2 shows that I watch regularly are re-runs (or not on) this week, but start anew next week, "This Is Us" and "Modern Family."

Likely because of the Olympics.

R109 and R111 are correct. Presidents' Day is not a major holiday. The repeats running this week (and last week) are because of the Olympics. February is a sweeps month; if this was not an Olympic year, all of the programming would be new (and will be new again starting Monday after the Olympics end this weekend).

On the issue of what this performance will (or won't do) for Darren's career, I don't really think the needle will be moved much in one direction or the other. Don't get me wrong -- I think he's doing a phenomenal job (and have no problem giving him props for a job well done), but the problem for him may be that people will look at this and say, "Yeah, he's good in it but it's kind of the role he was born to play" and let it go at that. Once it's over, he may get nominated for an Emmy and/or Golden Globe, possibly even win one (more likely the Globe), but his career more or less will continue on the same road it's always been on -- i.e., cute/pretty boy roles, some with a musical slant, mostly on TV, some on Broadway, etc. I really like him and hope he proves me wrong by actually getting a huge boost from having played this psycho killer so chillingly and effectively, but just not sure if it will make that much of a difference. I think the answer lies in whether or not casting directors looking at him now and thinking only "Cunanan" where they used to think "Glee" will work for him or against him.

I wouldn't worry R113. There's always another Murphy show. With the Netflix deal Murphy just got, Criss is basically set for life. Though I'm sure he's also jonesing to originate a role on Bway for a shot at the Tonys.

Poor Darren, he's gonna be stuck with Murphy touching his face for the rest of his career.

Who, me, poor? I'm like a trust fund baby, bitches!

This series is riveting.

[quote]he's gonna be stuck with Murphy touching his face for the rest of his career.

It isn't Darren's face that gay men want to touch...

New interview with Cody Fern.

I still wonder if he plays for our team. He talks again about Cate Blanchett being an inspiration, says Denis O’Hare is one of the best actors of his generation and is directing a short film produced by Xavier Dolan.

Also, man, every actor is begging Ryan Murphy to put them as the lead in a netflix show in their interviews.

[quote]I would work with Ryan, again and again and again and again, until the end of time.

Cody Fern looks like Tobias Menzies who plays the evil gay sadistic character on Outlander and who played Brutus on Rome.

Darren Criss is hard to cast. He's handsome, but not in a typical way, and he's very short.

[quote] PTB should have informed the announcer on how to pronounce Versace. He says ver-sah-CHEE. The family says vair-sah-CHAY.

It's actually pronounced ver-SAYCE. Don't you know anything?

Darren Criss seemed like he'd be a natural fit as a self-important, artsy hipster type, since that is his own personality. But they basically had him play that in his American Horror Story cameo and he was oddly flat.

Criss plays gay characters better than straight ones.

It is hard for me to compare, since the only time I've seen Criss play straight is in that short AHS cameo.

Finn Wittrock I can honestly say plays gay better than straight. He consistently has better chemistry with men on screen.

R118 That post is referencing the gif where RM touches Criss' face

[quote]Criss plays gay characters better than straight ones.

That is because he can't act.

R127 ummm he's definitely a decent actor! Really good in Versace.

watching replays of some of the episodes

the lady playing Donatella is horrid. cant hear a word she says. dentures?

criss is ok, not memorable tho.

yes, fern is a stand out.

something off with the writing....also agree: the told in revers thing is tacky.

R129 she's supposed to be nearly incomprehensible. Just like the real Donatella.

they shoulda made her as fugly lookin as Donatella

perk the rather dull show up a tad

how could they take such a sensational story and make it so dull

I bame it on criss' portrayl.

banal.

It’s so boring! Nothing happened this week!

seems like its running out of steam

who are we sposed to be rooting for??? is there anyone to root for in this mess???

Marilyn miglin?? she was a model in her youth ya know....

Darren Criss seems to be playing the part like its a Sat Nite Live sketch....

or Lifetime movie.

I'm bewildered.

he should be playing it with a clown red nose on, with his cross eyed eyes..

maybe they can do a re- do next yr with whole new cast

VERSACE: TRY AGAIN

Ricky Martin can stay. I like seeing him (even if he is a bit old to play Antonio)

r106, I totally agree with you about Greenfield. That was kind of amazing especially since I've only seen him on mostly crappy comedy shows.

Marilyn miglin swinging to the beat...

CREME DELLA MIGLIN

My anus... erm, heart is so ready for Cody Fern!!

omg he is new star of 2morrow

delish!

makes criss look like an amateur...

Girl, you declared you were done with this show. Yet, you are rewatching episodes in preparation for the next one.

I'm still reading the Orth book. Just got to the part where Marilyn Miglin and friends find the body of "Lee." ( She made him changed his name. It used to be Al.) Anyway, Lee is very fastidious. About everything. Meticulous. Orth seems to play it down, and maybe that will change in a few more pages, but it was Duke Miglin the son, who knew Andrew. So far it seems like it was a superficial relationship, not any kind of friendship, but that is the apparent connection. I find the Miglin murder puzzling. I have to wonder if Miglin was a member of that gay fraternity. Lee Miglin was very very deeply closeted. So much about that case remains under seal, I'm intrigued, because how Lee Miglin met Andrew in the first place, and why he made his secretary drop off $2,000 to his house Friday after Marilyn left town is a mystery.

Yeah, Orth presents the evidence that Andrew knew Duke Miglin first. There is a friend in San Diego who said Andrew told him he knew Duke, and the couple who said they saw Andrew and Duke together at the airport.

There are still so many questions when it comes to what happened with Cunanan and the Miglins. In terms of the money, to me Andrew clearly told Lee he needed cash, so Lee had his secretary bring some.

The police interviewed a male prostitute who said he was hired twice to do threeways with Lee and Andrew.

The cash dropped off at that house makes it seem that Lee was expecting Andrew.

So both the son and dad were gay and may have had sex with the same person?

[quote]So both the son and dad were gay and may have had sex with the same person?

Now THAT'S a miniseries I'd watch!

I'm wondering if Maybe Lee thought he was helping Andrew because he was a friend of Dukes. Andrew could have called Chicago claiming he was looking for Duke because he had a financial emergency. Andrew could be very ingratiating and sort of overwhelming. Lee would have told Andrew no problem if you're Dukes friend I'd be happy to help you out. It's funny but as I read a bout them, Marilyn was the cobra. But Lee was surprisingly naive when it came to assessing people who might be trying to scam him. Not saying Lee wasn't Gay, because I believe he was . Deeply closeted. Marilyn probably knew, but she put blinders on and just insisted that sometimes Lee liked to "be with the guys." She'd never have admitted her Husband was Gay. Has no one ever spoken to Duke about any of this. I mean it's been years. YOu'd thnk by now someone would've wanted to talk to thim. I also wonder why the police report remains sealed today?

Of course people have tried to talk to Duke Miglin r146.

He didn't know Andrew and his father didn't know Andrew. That is all Duke has to say about the matter. He reiterated that stance last year.

If what that family is saying is true then this whole situation is one of the biggest coincidences and perfect succession of events ever. Therefore it's hard to believe that aren't just spewing bullshit!

I agree R148. think about it. Let's say I'm Duke , OK? I'm Gay. My mother doesn't want to hear it. She is completely, "La la la!!! I can't hear you!!!" Total denial. Now while my father isn't the most assertive, helpful person, he is a lot easier to deal with. He tries to be supportive of me as much as he can while still ignoring me being Gay.

I meet Andrew casually. He's very kind. He is very gregarious. We are talking and I tell about my parents, how tough Ma is but what a soft touch Dad is. Maybe Andrew tells Duke, " I'm in and out of Chicago on business so maybe I'll pop in when you're there to visit. Andrew was always looking for guys he could "visit." Especially rich guys.

All I'm saying is maybe Duke had a very superficial encounter with Andrew, they may have even been at the same clubs or knew some of the same people. It was all easy to dismiss. Until Andrew's name comes up as the suspect in your father's brutal murder. How horrific it would be .My mother already thinks Gays are filth. Then she discovers someone who was Gay...who her son was friendly with, murders her husband? In their home?

[quote] Therefore it's hard to believe that aren't just spewing bullshit!

Since Mom's been on HSN for years, she's had a lot of exposure to spewing bullshit.

No one was probably more relieved than Marilyn Miglin when Andrew shot himself.

If it's true that Andrew met and knew Duke Miglin in California (which seems plausible), then it looks like Duke Miglin has spent two decades of his life promoting this story of "a random killing," just to please his deluded mother.

I wonder if he will come clean on the details after she passes away.

OFGS, LM was gay.

R153, who are you talking to? Do you think that Marilyn Miglin reads Datalounge?

She should probably consider advertising her various youth serums here.

She is the joke of HSN. Still selling that crud mud of hers. . They need to get their hands on Duke and get the real deal. Maybe he knew the killer also. . Kinky

Marilyn is my mentor

she wears a dress of blue

marilyn is my memoir

I take her to the mall. don't hate me cause I'm purdy.

[quote]I have to wonder if Miglin was a member of that gay fraternity.

I have wondered about that too. Did FBI or other law enforcement agencies look into it?

We may never know. It seems like a big heavy blanket was thrown over the Miglin case. The police report was sealed. I have no idea what else has been sealed. There was never any trial so no need for any kind of disclosure. They had Andrew's evidence. Apparently Marilyn went apeshit when she saw that Andrew had clipped off his whiskers and left all that hair clippings in her bathroom sink. There was soap scum ring around their bathtub. He left a huge hunk of ham in the office where Lee worked. All this post mortem. So he killed Lee then spent the night and made himself at home.

I don't think Duke or Marlena their daughter will ever do anything to make the crime pubic. Orth had to interview people who knew them, and the cops in Chicago. It was not easy. No family member was very forthcoming. I don't like Orth but she is very thorough. She is laughably ignorant about the Gay community and yes, homophobic too.

I'm sure Marilyn is just thankful she didn't go home a day early or else she might not be around anymore either.

OOPS....I meant PUBLIC...not pubic.....

[quote] The police interviewed a male prostitute who said he was hired twice to do threeways with Lee and Andrew.

Where's the source for this???!

I know his was just a murder of convenience, but does Orth say much about William Reese in the book? How much coverage, if any, does she devote to him? For instance, did she interview people who knew him to perhaps piece together what he did that day leading up to his death? To his life and family? Or was he merely a paragraph or two?

I can't help but wonder if the reason Cunanan killed Miglin was because he wanted Miglin to make him his regular kept boytoy (like all those other rich old men in his life had done previously) and Miglin refused, thus setting Cunanan off. I know that may sound crazy but it's obvious Cunanan was hardly a rational human being.

R164 Well, she talked about his family and things he did, like Civil War reenactment. He was shot execution style which is awful, kneeling and waiting to be slaughtered.

Thank you, R166. How sad. Like all of Cunanan's victims, he deserved so much better.

Their schtick is that the cops in different citys did not much share info, and get the thing solved quicker. Who can say. so many murders in a year, and this one legendary cause of the name VERSACE.

Happy this show is back tonight. I missed it last week.

This show is brilliantly done. And this is from me who wanted to love Feud but got po'd at the glorification of Joan Crawford. Murphy has made up for it here.

I'm curious if Ricky will do anymore acting after this. After all, he only took this job for money and so he could be with Edgar one last time before their schedules get busy, but even in the latin american world he's moderately successful due to being so old.

Did Ricky get dermabrasion for his acne scarring? His skin looks good.

Not sue I will watch it anymore, the told in reverse thing bugs me.

We both know you are going to devoutly watch every episode and come here to bitch about watching it r173.

Can't wait for the gif of the diving scene. I like his wide ass.

TERRY SWEENEY?!?!?!?!?

OMG, I love Ryan Murphy.

More Laura Brannigan. Nice.

Lee Miglin hanging out at Andrew's birthday party in San Diego? Nice to see Mike again but that was an unrealistic and unnecessary flair.

r178 yeah, that just seemed too convenient for dramatic purposes. It didn't ring true.

Andrew was such a transparent bitch.

Who’s the horrible actor playing Norman’s friend? Conmunity theater acting.

Shame on R180 for not knowing gay history. For your sake, I hope you’re a clueless tween.

I guess Michael Nouri has held up pretty well. He looks better than his real life counterpart.

Is Nouri bi? He's been married twice but there were rumors at one time. I know he was close to Tony Baekeland, the old money gay guy who was seduced by, then murdered, his mother, Barbara Baekeland.

Uhhh, yeah, I knew that Andrew was not exactly a well rounded compassionate individual but the way Andrew is written and the way Criss is playing him makes the others look incredibly stupid.

I thought Episode 4 was great, but Episode 5 had some things that didn't make sense. If you had a friend you didn't trust, and that friend told you he stole your gun, would you confront him and tell him you were done with him? I don't think so. If a pathological liar told you he had a gun and then invited you to come over and talk, I wouldn't go over, I would call the fucking police. It's hard to relate to characters when they are written to behave in a way that is stupid.

Ah, now eventually you do plan to have Versace on your, on your Versace show, right? Hello?

[quote] It's hard to relate to characters when they are written to behave in a way that is stupid.

Well these are real people. Andrew did take Jeff's gun. And gay men didn't really look at the cops as their friend in the 90s. Jeff Trail did join the cops, and quit because he found it unbearably homophobic.

And nighmares/dreams don't count

I had that same ugly shirt that Andrew wears when he leaves his mother.

I had one with hunter green sleeves. Comfy as hell.

I don't remember the postcard business in Orth's book. Was that invented for TV?

This episode was Darren's best performance so far, the first time he has impressed me. Of course the writing finally allowed Andrew to be more of a three dimensional character.

Criss was better but the episode wasn't great.

I really liked this episode

I did too r193, overall it worked for me.

I agree Criss was really good.

He used his own credit card for the hotel? He didn’t steal one of Norman’s?

Terry Sweeney, who was fired from SNL, played Norman’s friend? Wow. They could have cast that role a hell of a lot better.

We finally saw his ass.

happy, DL??!

R196 in the last episode, it showed American Express cut his credit and he had to beg to charge the plane ticket to Minneapolis.

He likely got his Am Ex originally because he had the sugar daddy

[quote]I don't remember the postcard business in Orth's book. Was that invented for TV?

It wasn't in the book. I assume it was made up fpr TV, which is odd since it was such a big plot event the show has used.

I'm reading up on the Tony Baekeland story. That should be the next miniseries. I don't recall the movie and was too young for the book. Was the movie with Julianne Moore (seriously) and Eddie Redmayne successful?

Episodes without brutal murders just aren't that interesting.

I hope the future episodes show what made Andrew Cunanan suddenly pretend to to be wealthy

[quote]We finally saw his ass. happy, DL??!

Well we saw his ass in episode one, but yes I'm glad to see it again. It made me quite happy and was a wonderful way to start the ep, thanks for asking!

I felt for David in that conversation with Andrew.

I've been in that situation before with a friend. You try to get to know them better and have a honest conversation but it breaks your heart because they are unable to be emotionally honest and tell the truth, still have to throw in their lies. Though it was nice writing, the mix of lies and truth Andrew. Everything he said about his parents behavior was true, though everything he said about their lives was of course false.

Though their presentation of who David Madson was a person continues to be their own made up character.

R200 that story really needs to be told in a format like this. The movie was certainly well made and beautifully acted but there were so much left out. You could certainly fill a miniseries from the book Savage Grace without making so much of it up, as Murphy tends to do.

I felt it was boring. Rather see some reruns of the Alienist.

The show is definitely losing viewers/interest. There seems to be less posts during each episode, which indicates to me people are losing interest and tuning out.

Vulture episode fact check at link

Is the FBI Dossier on Cunanan a worthwhile read?

I liked the episode a lot. I felt like Criss was finally doing a good job.

The guy playing David is fantastic. The scene where he tries to get to know Andrew but knows they'll never happen was beautifully acted.

I love Joanna Adler. She’s always brilliant. Happy to see her working in this.

R207 I thought the dossier was interesting. Had things that didn’t make it into the book because they weren’t verifiable but seemed believable.

Is this the episode where he looks out over the pool and you see his ass? If it is, I'm the guy who told you I've seen these episodes and YOU LAUGHED at me. When I saw the episode their was a sock over his dick when he dived in the pool. What did they do to that shot? Just curious?

[quote] I'm the guy who told you I've seen these episodes and YOU LAUGHED at me. When I saw the episode [bold]their[/bold] was a sock over his dick when he dived in the pool.

Now we're laughing at you for other reasons.

"even in the latin american world he's [Ricky Martin] moderately successful...." Oh, r171, you're a card!

THERE was a sock. SHUT UP YOU QUEENFACE. I know the difference.

They CGI'd the cock out.

Terry Sweeney as Miss DataLounge was divine! I thought of ALL OF YOU during her far-too-few lines.

Terry Sweeney was the best. I follow him on fb and he seems like such a nest guy.

Did Jeff and David really hook up or become friends or is this just dramatic effect for the show?

I hope Ricky is counseling Darren on coming out - the engagement announcement a few weeks ago was laughable.

R219, time to put the fanfiction away.

R218 No, so much of this was invented, like the postcard thing. Trail's real issue was Andrew's drug dealing.

upon viewing tonights episode which showed criss' ass , I can now understand why mr murphy hired the kid for this role. can u imagine eating them melons out? did the whole crew get a crack at it? was he contracted to be nude in between scenes? ...... EMMY BY GOD. EMMY.

The show's boring. You're boring.

You wonder whats in the souls of the creatives who got excited about this show.

As an audience, we hope for some insight into the dark side of humanity.

I'm left searching for insight into the creatives.

Empty, soul draining show.

And not in a GOOD way.

And there IS a good way.

I still don't know why they named this after Versace. It's barely about him and it demeans the other victims who come across much more sympathetic than he does, not that he deserved it.

They must read DL because they added a much needed card at the beginning of the episodes telling us this was happening a year before all the murders. They finally understood 99% of viewers don't have a timeline about Cunanan's life handy while watching and these random dates on the screen are not enough.

[quote]I still don't know why they named this after Versace.

Because they want people to watch. Versace is a name that people recognize. It's not that complicated.

A lot of fine acting from everybody in this episode. A great cast.

I wanted a Tasteful Friends tour of the entire house. God what a marvelous orgy location.

A very interesting article written by someone who knew Cunanan's family.

still no Gamma Mu mention in this episode. will they ever talk about that?

The previews showed him and Norman first getting to know each other right r231? Gammu Mu might get a mention next ep.

There is no Lincoln in this story and Lincoln was an important part of Andrew's life. In fact I thought it was Lincoln who sent him packing when Andrew presented him with his "List of Demands." Wasn't it Lincoln who took Andrew to the Gamma Mu events? Or am I getting Lincoln and Norman confused?

In general, I have to say that IMO the problem with this presentation is the pacing. It's a directing and an editing problem. And there are certain scenes where it is too obvius that the directing is lacking. When you fuck up a scene where Edgar and Penelope are reciting their lines in an obvious fashion, as if they don't know their lines, then you have a directing problem because those two are both pros when it comes to acting. And I also have to say that FX HAS TOO DAMNED MANY COMMERCIALS. It actually ends up affecting my attention span and breaks the continuity. We've grown accustomed to putting up with a certain amount of commercials, but really this is excessive.

Versace will probably have only 20-25 minutes screen time for the entire series. Shame.

But I'm not mad with the amount of screen time Finn and Fern have gotten. They're adorable.

[quote]It actually ends up affecting my attention span

I seem to have misplaced mine some time in the mid-nineties.

[quote] Though their presentation of who David Madson was a person continues to be their own made up character.

Yes, a lot of the show is completely made up - to fit Murphy's one-dimensional, over-simplified vision of all the characters & events. David Madson's portrayal was white-washed into some kind of 'martyr-twink' (whereas in reality he was apparently a BDSM-loving bodybuilder, who cheated on his partners). His death was tragic, but that's not a reason for the showrunners to completely re-write and 'sanctify' his real-life appearance and character.

As for Jeff Trail, the portrayal of his 'shocking, traumatic, self-harming, suicidal' life in the Navy is reportedly not only wildly exaggerated, but completely fabricated by the showrunners:

[quote] Vanity Fair: "Orth reports that Trail ... was actually popular with the 42 men he commanded ... His stymied career prospects had [less to do with homophobia and] more to do with his ill-judged joke gift to a superior officer (a set of the board game Clue, because the man was thought of as clueless)."

[quote] "Michael Williams, a friend of Trail’s, told the San Diego Reader that while Trail loved the Navy, he also did public health outreach in the city’s gay community, “like Project Lifeguard, which has to do with safe-sex programs,” so clearly he wasn’t that paranoid about being discovered."

Trail was an intelligent, level-headed pragmatist. He advocated for political change in the Navy, that's why he did the CBS "48 Hours" interview. He was against the (new, just introduced) "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy. But there was no indication that he attempted to hang himself or that he self-harmed with a knife. He was apparently popular with his subordinates.

The showrunners decided to make his Navy life more 'tragic' and violently shocking to get an emotional, tearful reaction from the viewers. But it's a disservice to Trail and his memory - he wasn't some fictionalized suicidal, self-cutting victim, he was in reality the opposite - quite brave and stoic.

What Disney character did he have tattooed on his ankle?

Marvin the Martian r237.

I find it acceptable that the show doesn't feature David's interest in BDSM sex. That wouldn't add anything to the story for me. In fact, I'd find it an annoying ploy to titillate straights who are just certain that all gay men are kinky.

There is no real proof that David was "into" BDSM, none of the other guys he dated (and there are a lot of those) back that up. Just because he acquiesced to do with it Andrew doesn't make it some defining characteristic.

That is not where the show goes wrong. But the differences between what we know of real life David and show-David have been hashed on many times in these threads.

Darren really does have an amazing ass. I'm glad he's finally showing it off. I also think that, acting wise, this has been his best episode yet.

I may be greedy but I hope Darren shows his ass at least one more time.

R236 They've really done Jeff Trail's memory a disservice, portraying him as a frightened, pathetic character, attempting suicide and the self-excision of a tattoo.

I can't believe, in retrospect, people quibbled about the few inventions in Feud. It now seems like a documentary compared to this.

I'm hoping Darren gets his ass out again, too. Is it too much to hope for a sex scene with Michael Nourri?

Though I will say in this episode. Real life David loved nice things, it was one of the things him and Andrew had in common. As far as we can see he kept accepting Andrew's lavish gifts.

Also this idea he was some untraveled bumpkin was bizarre. David travelled a lot for work. I mean that is how he met Andrew in the first place, he was traveling to California for work. He traveled around the country, even taught a class in Boston at Harvard.

Yeah still waiting on a sex scene with Criss in it! He's playing a damn rent boy/escort so if there isn't one then that is bullshit!

The whole sub-plot about the Navy trying to identify gay officers by their tattoos seemed a bit silly.

Back in the 90s, there were literally thousands of navy officers (both gay and straight) with the same cliché, interchangeable tattoos (tribal; barbed wire band; Chinese symbol; and "Mom"). Even if smn said "yeah, I fucked a guy and he had a tribal arm tattoo" - that wouldn't narrow down the list of candidates at all.

Jeff Trail had a somewhat unique tattoo - but it was almost hidden, down on his ankle. Because according to military/navy regulations back then, tattoos shouldn't be visible outside of uniform. During a quickie hookup (in the "toilets cubicles between Pierce 5 and 6", as fictionalized in the show) generally no one will have the time or the opportunity to examine your hookup's ankle tattoo. So the fictionalized scene where Trail tries to bloodily cut off his own ankle skin makes very little rational sense. It's just gore for the sake of gore. And it also seems out-of-character for the real-life Jeff Trail.

The Versace podcast people on Vanity Fair are upset this show has sexualized Cunanan at all r246 (seriously, one of the guys hosting is gay and was bitching that they were showing off "Andrew's" ass again). Because of who Andrew is, don't think this show would actually do a sex scene that is meant to be hot and not creepy.

[quote]During a quickie hookup (in the "toilets cubicles between Pierce 5 and 6", as fictionalized in the show) generally no one will have the time or the opportunity to examine your hookup's ankle tattoo

People did notice Jeff's tattoo. Several people that Orth interviewed in San Diego who went to the gay cruising spots know of "that guy with the Marvin tattoo"

Ummm it's a Ryan Murphy show. Those always have a lot of man ass in them. Murphys not gonna let his personal boy toy Darren not bare his.

R248 But he was an escort so thats obviously part of the story.

I welcome it r251, just saying I was surprised other people find the idea of killer being sexualized "wrong"

R249, that sub-plot still doesn't make any sense. If, in that fictional story, they had an officer who wanted to out all the Navy people he fucked - it would be easier for the Navy to ask him to identify them in a lineup of photos.

Jeff Trail might have had a unique funny tattoo - but many gay servicemen have generic ones, or don't have them at all. Which means, that 'test' would fail. And many straights would get caught up in that 'sting' as well - b/c they happen to have similar tattoos.

Also, I don't recall in the news about Trail's autopsy that he had knife marks on his ankle. Trail already had a horrible death - for the showrunners to invent that he also cut his own body beforehand is taking too much liberty with reality.

I wasn't trying to say that subplot happened, as far as I know it was completely made up.

My only point was people recognizing Jeff his tattoo was a real thing from the book. That is what probably inspired Tom Rob Smith to make up that plotline.

Are Cunanan’s parents still alive? Have they ever talked to the press?

Andrew's mother died in 2012. As far as I know his father is still alive.

Nice things were David'sweakness. That was the one thing, according to Orth's book, that made him give in to Andrew even when he was clearly not interested in a relationship with him.

Apparently, Cunanan attracted people to him by his charm and charisma. I’m not seeing that at all in this show. “Andrew” has moments of sweetness but it’s hard for me to believe that this guy could bewitch Norman and Madson and Miglin and others. Tall tales and confidence wouldn’t seem to be enough.

Even the scenes where he meets Jeff Trail at the gay bar—“Andrew” was far from irresistible. Nice and cute but nothing extraordinary.

Maybe we’ll see more of Andrew’s apparent magnetic personality in the remaining episodes.

[quote]Have they ever talked to the press?

Andrew's family with the press was pretty much an embarrassing disaster. I imagine this will be covered in the last episode. His mom was delusional. His siblings and father were just out to get paid.

When Criss dives into the pool it looks like he doesn't have a dick. I realize they can't show that but if someone dived in nude like that their junk would be all over the place.

[quote] I realize they can't show that

FX can't show dick, but Netflix can. Stay tuned.

If what R236 said is true, which I think it might be, then what theyve made of these people's lives for fucking entertainment is DISGUSTING and the ratings seems to be their karma.

FUCK THEM ALL !

If you want to gain trust between communities, this bullshit capitalizing on a persons murder is no way to do it!

Dirty dealings all around!

Netflix shows do full frontal?

Of course they can r263, not that you see it that often. But "Sense8" and "Altered Carbon" had full frontal I know off the time of my head.

R261 I actually wouldnt put it past Murphy to cast Criss in one of his netflix shows mainly so he can show off his dick. Murphy is not subtle.

I mean every actor has it in their contract how much they are willing to show. Don't know if Criss would be okay with going full frontal.

I mean I'm sure he was happy to show off his butt, he knows he has a nice butt. American actors tend to be terrified when it comes to putting their dick on screen.

I'm liking the "going backwards" mode of this series. It really makes the audience demand to know what the motivation for each step was.

[quote]I mean every actor has it in their contract how much they are willing to show. Don't know if Criss would be okay with going full frontal.

Why not, he barely held onto the towel in that insta thirst trap.

Darren seems like the type that would be down for full frontal. Something about him, like he just doesn't give a shit.

Nah, he gives a shit. Meaning, he knows his audience, and also wants to be seen as 'edgy'.

R270 Showing your dick is being edgy?

So do people think Andrew went on a murder spree while hooked on drugs? I guess that would make sense, especially for how vicious the attacks were.

Was he ever diagnosed? Did he actually believe his delusional or was it all a scam? Was he a pathological liar (couldn't stop lying); was he deemed a full-blown psychopath by experts? I'm just curious as to what experts have chimed in with. I doubt he ever sought any sort of mental treatment?

Is the depiction of the mother in the show at all accurate?

R271, dumb comment.

Steroids can increase aggression and make someone quick to anger

Yeah, the meth use definitely played a part of it r272.

Andrew was way deeper into drugs than most people around him realized, he tried to keep that part of himself hidden. He sold drugs as well, which I am surprised the show hasn't covered. That was part of his income stream.

And I am pretty sure Andrew was selling roids r274, not necessarily taking them.

If it wasn’t steroids, what was he injecting between his toes in the scene where he was on the phone with the credit card company?

Is his mother still alive? Have the parents ever done an interview?

Ramirez shows dick in Carlos. Maybe Murphy will cast him again on Netflix.

r277 see rr256.

Damn. Jeff is so masc4masc lol

The scene between David and Andrew at the table was very effective and I think it was Criss' best moment. Criss hinted a little at Andrew's love for his parents - fondly remembering getting the master bedroom - but masking it all by making it seem like his parents were perfect and well-to-do.

And Fern's reaction - knowing that Andrew was once again pretending showed how isolated Andrew was in his own fantasy.

R281 The crazy thing is that about 75% of what he told David in that scene was true. Thats fairly honest for him. Which makes that scene a bit sadder.

R237 and R238 just to clear the record, Marvin the Martian was never Disney. It’s a Warner Bros. property appearing in Looney Toons cartoons with Bugs Bunny.

OK, many cartoon characters from non-Disney appeared in [italic] Who Framed Roger Rabbit, [/italic] a Disney production, including Marvin the Martian from Looney Toons.

The real Jeff Trail was haf!

The real David Madson.. not so much.

If the majority of this series is fictionalized courtesy of Ryan Murphy, does that mean anybody connected to these characters wouldnt talk, like AC’s siblings, father, etc? I can’t imagine they couldn’t flesh out a more fact based script.

Yeah its already been said many times, but i have to chime in. I find the time sequence irritating in this project. Binge watching it might be more interesting, but i think the story would be better told from start to finish while incorporating Versace's activities into every episode thus juxtaposing Versace's rise against Cunanan's descent.

Like others I'm not feeling any charm or seduction from this Cunanan. In fact he's rather repugnant in rvery way

The whole thing seems to be created to show the 'acting chops' of criss. Mess....

The scripts are based on Maureen Orth's book as it says in the credits of each ep r286. She interviewed everyone there was to interview at the time, our knowledge of what "really happened" is based on that. The show didn't even try to reach out to any of the people's families or anything like that.

But this is a TV show first and foremost. The job of any writer is to make the best show they can, not to make some slavishly accurate documentary. Of course they alter things for the sake of the story they want to tell, that is their job as a writer.

I have fun pointing out the differences, but I get it. That is how it works.

This show is really good. I liked the last episode a lot and not just cause we saw Criss' ass again.

The problem R289 is that the gratuitous changes in events and characters haven't improved or enriched or advanced the story, they've only cheapened it into melodrama.

Too many commercials to watch the s how at the time of airing. Record and watch later is imperative.

I found this episode interesting, but with each episode I find that Darren Criss's acting is more and more community theater level.

Everyone else acts circles around him. I think he is very amateurish.

And his legs are damn short.

Darren Criss is actually getting better for me each episode.

I've said this earlier in this thread, but yeserday's episode was the first time in Darren Criss' entire acting career where he made me believe he could actually act. Best performance I've seen him give, and I've watched every damn episode of Glee.

R276 - ideally you inject steroids with a long needle deep into a muscle in an area without too many nerve endings - so the outside of the glutes is the most common place - around where the outer upper corner of a jeans back pocket hits - some guys do shoulder injections too.

Injecting between the toes is one if the places addicts inject to keep their arms free from track marks.

ryan, how do I audition for ur next sexy violent show? I can travel, and I'm kool with whatever anyone wants to do to my body.

Episode 6 was a good episode. Thoroughly enjoyed it.

OMG Terry Sweeney from SNL was great

The episode didn't do a very job of explaining why he'd had such a severe falling out with both of his friends.

You could see why they would have been growing tied of him, but not why they wanted to make a break.

If I recall correctly, the birthday party (where he gave Trail the shoes to give him) took place at a restaurant called California Cuisine.

[quote] If the majority of this series is fictionalized courtesy of Ryan Murphy, does that mean anybody connected to these characters wouldnt talk, like AC’s siblings, father, etc? I can’t imagine they couldn’t flesh out a more fact based script.

R286, I read that Murphy made the executive decision not to contact or talk to any of the relatives of the characters. His team reportedly just went off Orth's book, but significantly changed some of the main characters.

Surprisingly, IIRC Criss bemoaned this decision in an interview - he wanted a more factually fleshed-out story.

[quote]OMG Terry Sweeney from SNL was great

Was that hair color on purpose?

My favorite thing about this past episode was Laura Branigan's "Self Control."

I forgot how much I loved that song!

it's totally fair they didn't talk to the victim's families and friends. Not only out of respect but because it would have taken months of interviews and a lot of time trying to make truth dramatically resonant for a tv show. TV is a fast biz, people. I think they did a great job all considered.

Original Self Control by italo-disco cutie Raf, later covered by Laura Branigan for american market

I had no idea that Laura Branigan died.

Wow, that's sad. :o(

Why use a 80's song for a show set in 1997 tho

Because the song is called "Self Control," R309, and it applied to the character.

Andrew Cunanan had absolutely no self control.

R309 That was a sloppy touch.

Music licensing can be expensive.

I commented in an earlier thread how interesting it is that so much if the pop music is from the early 80s. I’d love to know why they made that choice.

Gloria was in episode 2 so I guess someone on the production is a Fanigan.

[quote] it's totally fair they didn't talk to the victim's families and friends. Not only out of respect but because it would have taken months of interviews and a lot of time trying to make truth dramatically resonant for a tv show.

I think the more important reason is that, had they paid respect to people's recollections of the victims & events, they wouldn't have been able to create such an overly fantasized tale. Ignoring more realistic accounts helped them create as much BS as they pleased.

It was also an issue of cost. It takes a lot of time to interview all those people -- and some would want to be paid.

It is easier to just use one source. And then make up the things nobody knows for sure.

I enjoy the show for what it is. Not looking for a documentary here.

r313 "Fanigan" - love that term. I've been a Branigan fan for years and never heard that.

I thought using Self Control tied into using Gloria in an earlier episode. Maybe Andrew was a fan of Laura growing up gay in the '80s.

[quote]You could see why they would have been growing tired of him

I'm still waiting to see why they would have had anything to do with him in the first place. Thus far, there's been nothing even the slightest bit attractive about his personality.

R318 In the next episode we will see how David and Andrew met and had an initial attraction. We should see it more then I'd guess. Or at least what David likes in him.

R318 Yeah, I don't get that either.

Especially Norman. He is portrayed as being very smart. How could he put up with crazy, lying Andrew for a year? Especially when Andrew wasn't giving him the dick every night.

The scene where his mother is giving him a sponge bath was C R E E P Y.

[quote] And then make up the things nobody knows for sure.

Except that's not what they did. Even with very little research, they could know for sure whether Madson was a twink or a bodybuilder. And they could know for sure whether Trail was a self-harmer or not.

There's creative liberty / filling in the gaps, and then there's just re-writing history.

Norman was too nice but maybe he thought he could help Andrew and the good times together outweighed the bad.

So R316, what exactly IS the show you so enjoy?

An in depth rendering of the psyche of a killer??

No.

Insight into a moment of history and its participants?

Uh, not exactly.

What IS there to enjoy in such a show??

I'm actually curious cause I feel its a crime happening all over again.

I'm with R314 all the way.

BS and a theft of the truth while pretending to be all about the truth.

r323......HAHAHA......troll.....there is a disclaimer at the beginning of each episode stating its based on Orths book, conversations are fictionalized, etc.......try to disguise your irrational Ryan Murphy hate better.

R323 it's just a show and you're ridiculous

I find it annoying when something is based on real events, to make unnecessary changes.

The birthday party was at restaurant in San Diego I've been to, not at a home in La Jolla.

[quote]I'm actually curious cause I feel its a crime happening all over again.

I'd like to say that I feel your pain, but I am wildly indifferent to it.

The changes don't effect the overall show in any meaningful way so who cares?

Many of these changes were built for dramatic effect. This isn’t a documentary.

It made sense that everything happen at that house because it showed what Andrew was enjoying until his fall and subsequent mental break.

to the posters complaining the party was at a restaurant: you understand that placing it at the house SHOWS you everything you need to know about Cunanan and his sugar daddy? What did you want, a 2 hour restaurant scene where the characters explain what's going on in Cunanan's life at the moment? it's called teleVISION, it's not a radio drama.

R323 - Hollywood has always plaid fast and loose with “what really happened” when making product based on real life events. And in the past they were less upfront about it / you ever see The Battle of a Little Big Horn? I’m not saying it’s “right” but a work of dramatic narrative isn’t a documentary or a history / true crime book.

In this instance this series is really “about” exploring homophobia & what it did to people using those events / time & place as the framing device. Bit the real commentary is on our present era. Think of it more as an allegory like The Crucible more than a true crime drama.

The David Madison character was drasticly changed for purposes of storytelling, drama & empathy - they feel this “type” suits the story they want to tell better than the “real David” - and the location change from a restaurant to a home provides for much more storytelling possibilities as the above poster points out. You may not agree with or like what they are doing - but it’s what happens with these types of movies / tv shows / plays more often than not.

Jeff Trail wasn't as hot as people think. That's him on the left.

I think the point is the murdered victims aren't here to defend their representation on screen. So the showrunners should at least not invent things that would (unfairly and without proof) significantly damage the victims' memory.

People say "oh, it's just a TV show, it's not a documentary". But it's actually a wide-reaching (globally marketed and distributed) portrayal of these people. It will leave a more lasting impression about them than any small documentary. I'm watching this in the UK with friends, and people are commenting: 'How sad that Jeff Trail tried to cut and then hang himself'.

This is how the viewing public will basically remember or think about this real person from now on. Not many will read the book or try to fact-check - they'll just believe that a fact-inspired show wouldn't go so far as to completely fabricate a suicide attempt for a real victim.

Smn upthread mentioned that the victims' friends & family weren't contacted, inter alia, "out of respect". But it's even more disrespectful for those close ones to switch on the TV and witness (in total surprise) that their loved one was a suicidal self-cutter (which apparently wasn't the case). This is damaging stuff and can cause a lot of unnecessary, bewildered grief.

FFS r333....then dont watch if it assaults your delicate sensibilities.

While facts may not be accurate, the victims definitely aren't portrayed in a bad light. In fact it's the opposite. They are being portrayed as so giving and incredibly good people.

I'm liking this show. Darren Criss is really good. When Andrew tells Norman he doesn't want to be "ordinary" by working hard, going back to school and getting his degree, I flashed on a friend who had a similar life (without the blood and murders). And he said the same thing to me. "Working for a living is ordinary." He lived off rich guys his whole adult life and millions of dollars passed through his hands, but as he hit his 40s the guys he pulled had less money. He was still extremely good looking for his age but his last sugar daddy wasn't super rich like the others. He was younger, drove a Lincoln, and my friend told him, like Andrew, that he wanted a new Mercedes SL. He got really pushy about it. The guy refused and eventually asked him to leave, at which point my friend went nuts and beat him up. The police were called, restraining orders were issued, and the locks were changed. His life became "ordinary" real fast and even his own family wouldn't take him in.

[quote]This is how the viewing public will basically remember or think about this real person from now on.

As a member of said viewing public, I will neither remember or think about this real person from now on.

In real life, Norman looks like the red-headed guy that bitches at Andrew at the start of the show--same small frame and red hair. The actor who plays Norman, is way too beefy. Norman is basically a quiet, engineer-type. He is a very nice, low-key guy. When the scandal hit, Norman left the country for Canada where he is from. Mellow guy. Just don't call him the Widow Cunanan.

Has anyone pointed out that Cuba Gooding Jr. looks nothing like OJ Simpson? So distracting! Epic Ryan Murphy FAIL!!!!

R334, it's called reviewing.

R331, the show already had a fact-based arch about homophobia in the navy (Trail allegedly responsibly stopped a bully fight against a 3rd person). That could have been enough. If they wanted that story arch to be even more 'dramatic' / 'blood-gushing gory' - they could have done what responsible showrunners usually do: invent a fictional character ('John Doe') and show him as a suicidal self-cutter in the navy. There was absolutely no need to push that fictional story onto a real-life person (who got murdered afterwards to boot).

R335 - I agree, but they also portrayed them as rather weak people (both mentally and physically), when they were apparently quite brave and strong. Would you like smn to create a TV story about your loved one - but make up a fictional story that he, for example, poured gasoline over himself and lit himself on fire, trying to burn himself alive? I mean why not - it will look very 'dramatic' after all.

Never really cared if an actor matches a real life person unless it's someone super recognizable. Never knew what Norman in real life looked like so his appearance on the show doesn't matter to me.

Norman Blachford on the left.

Thank god it's not Norman Blachford on the right.

He was not the most attractive. Most shows get actors far more good-looking than the real life counterpart and that's definitely the case here.

[quote] Trail allegedly responsibly stopped a bully fight against a 3rd person

Nope.

Since this thread is currently largely a debate over how true crime gets turned into movies I am going to post this link here - this film is about two true crime cases, one - Ed Gein being quite well known. It isn't a doc, and is in no way a conventional narrative, but if you like offbeat, moody films it is pretty terrific.

"For his career-long excavation of the American national character, James Benning found two of his most striking case studies in a pair of murderers whose crimes took place 30 years and more than half the country apart. Landscape Suicide, like many of Benning’s films, consists largely of footage of places, landscapes, and roads accompanied by—or paired with—speech. The speech, in this case, comes from the court testimonies of Bernadette Protti, who stabbed one of her California high-school classmates to death in 1984 over an insult, and Ed Gein, the infamous Plainfield, Wisconsin, killer who made trophies out of his victim’s bodies, read aloud by actors directly to the camera. Benning’s America is a country terrified equally by the wilderness to which it’s in thrall and the civilization it’s set up to keep that wilderness at bay—and nowhere in his work does that tension become more chillingly clear." - FSLC screening notes

You're right, R345. I thought at least that bit of Trail's depicted life might be true - but apparently even that story isn't based on his life:

[quote] Newsweek: "But the rescue of another bullied gay soldier, Trail's attempted suicide because of homophobia within the military, and his desperate attempt to carve off his Marvin the Martian tattoo—as we see Trail do in the episode—is pure speculation. ... Trail's friend San Diego friend, Michael Williams, said in a 1997 interview, "He loved the Navy". "

R324,

I'm not talking about "fictionalized conversations" but whole characters that, had they been written with more depth and truth could have given US the pieces to put together the true nature of why these people had such fated encounters.

I like being given those tools to do that through entertainments that PROFESS to be unravelings of a mystery.

And R325, it is NOT just a show.

And some of us dont feel "ridiculous" for feeling so. Tell that to the loved ones left watching this now.

As R333 beautifully put it:

"I think the point is the murdered victims aren't here to defend their representation on screen. So the showrunners should at least not invent things that would (unfairly and without proof) significantly damage the victims' memory.

People say "oh, it's just a TV show, it's not a documentary". But it's actually a wide-reaching (globally marketed and distributed) portrayal of these people. It will leave a more lasting impression about them than any small documentary. I'm watching this in the UK with friends, and people are commenting: 'How sad that Jeff Trail tried to cut and then hang himself'.

"but they also portrayed them as rather weak people (both mentally and physically), when they were apparently quite brave and strong.. Would you like smn to create a TV story about your loved one - but make up a fictional story...?"

And finally, R327-

You are about as honest as this show, for if you were " wildly indifferent" to me you wouldnt be responding TO me in a post that responds to nothing BUT me .

Of course that kind of mentality would support this kind of show. You have a popcorn watching friend in R325

And I hope R333 is writing.

I am sure, YOU R325 and R327 are NOT!

R348 You are very passionate about this. Its kind of sad.

I think it's funny that Andrew thought celebrating a birthday close to 40 was the time to try to UP his hooker fees.

Especially wearing size 36 jeans.

Close to 40?

He died at 27, that was his 26th birthday they were depicting.

Agree with the posters saying this isn't a documentary so turn it off if it offends your delicate sensibilities.

The reverse timeline is fascinating and it appears as if Murphy actually pulled it off... something few artists sans Pinter have done completely successfully (Sondheim, Kaufman & Hart and Christopher Nolan included).

While I had no desire to rewatch OJ once it was over, I eagerly await the chance to binge this just to see how it all feels as a collective piece.

R351 My mistake. I thought the banner said "Happy 36th Birthday!"

I just looked it up and was struck by how not handsome he is in these pics:

That whole group in San Diego that he was a part of was the creepiest and sleaziest group of people I've ever met. They were much worse than the show is portraying.

spill R354!

I love this series and everyone in it.

R354 Weren't they into piss and bondage? And videotaping underage tricks?

The show has been fantastic. It honors the lives of the victims more than any other true crime movie or show I can remember. Criss is outstanding- I met a ton of those kind of removed, sociopathic gay types in the '90s. He does is perfectly. And amazing turns from Cody Fern, Finn Wittrock, Judith Light and on and on.

I think its a major accomplishment. I like it better than O.J. Look, I hated Murphy for years because of Glee, which, as Bret Easton Ellis said, "was like stepping in a puddle of HIV" But I think he's been great with O.J., Feud, and now Versace. Solid, entertaining, and engaging shows.

[quote] I hated Murphy for years because of Glee, which, as Bret Easton Ellis said, "was like stepping in a puddle of HIV"

What??

[quote]I hated Murphy for years because of Glee, which, as Bret Easton Ellis said, "was like stepping in a puddle of HIV"

Is there any remark more bereft of wit?

[quote]I hated Murphy for years because of Glee, which, as Bret Easton Ellis said, "was like stepping in a puddle of HIV

Ellis is pathetic and agreeing with his homophobia is deplorable. You just annihilated the rest of your post with that sentence.,

And OJ was a much stronger show than this -- if you overlook Travolta's acting and Gooding's looks.

They are so different but I like this one a bit better.

[quote]Norman was too nice but maybe he thought he could help Andrew and the good times together outweighed the bad.

I got that vibe. Some people have savior complexes where they try to help people out in certain ways and it doesn't pan out the way it intended it to. The scene of Norman offering to pay for Andrew to go back to school reminded me of my father's cousin. The cousin had a successful career as an engineer. He wasn't not mega rich, but lived comfortably. At one point, he bought a cabin in the hometown he grew up in to use during the ski season and summers. There he met up a woman who he went to high school with. She had been in prison years before for drugs and she had kids. They started dating and she eventually moved to the city where he worked and she brought her kids along. He doted on her kids and spoiled them for awhile. Eventually, he asked the girlfriend to get some kind of job and he told the kids that they had to get good grades in school and do chores to earn the things. It backfired with the kids. They didn't want to earn anything and they asked to move with their grandparents. The girlfriend stayed on longer, but she would start jobs and quit them. She ran up credit card and other debts. He would forgive and kept thinking he could "save" her. He finally got fed up and kicked her out of his house. Later on, he told people that he felt sorry for her and wanted to help her improve her life. She just wanted him for money and stuff for her kids.

Yeah, that puddle remark.... What kind of person would say something like that let alone about a TV show?

R211 Have you seen future episodes? Does Criss have any sex scenes? Just wondering.

I was genuinely surprised he didn't kill Norman. He seems to have rejected Andrew worse than any other guy did.

Just rent a porn already, R211. Jesus.

R368 Fuck off. Im not wanting it to be like a porno. A person can want what they want.

One does wonder why he didn't kill Norman. Maybe he felt like more of a father figure to him.

R285 David Madson looks like the guy from Freier Fall and the guy who played Wolfgang fron Sense8

He honestly probably wasn't even thinking of killing anyone till long after Norman dropped his ass.

I keep fantasizing bout other actors playing Cunanan. Who would u pick?

maybe......: mr leto. ...he does crazy so well.... said to have biggest cock in town.

r373, go back to sleep.

Jared Leto isn't half asian, so no.

is that why Darren got the job? I think not. its cause his ass tits and cock are adored by the creators and his anus hole in particular is adored by them. it stretches easily and can accommodate the most foreign of objects. he a real sweetie.

Acting ability or Asian blood are not a factor. nor should they be. that would be racist....

R349 -

whats kinda "sad" is NOT having passion about a topic YOU'VE DECIDED TO COME TO COMMENT ON and then NOT commenting on the topic but other peoples passions ABOUT that topic!

Thats more than sad: its a waste of space.

Why not go where YOUR passions lead YOU??

I'll stick with mine and others here like R333 and R340 who are very passionate as well and actually willing to TALK ABOUT THE SHOW AS WELL AS POSTERS,thank you.

Now back to topic: I'm sure Ryan must have planned some great episode one origin story for our Andrew.

Otherwise...what a wasted opportunity.

huh?

Yeah, Darren definitely got this job because he is half-filipino like Andrew was and looks similar to him r376. He would have been he first choice for any casting director.

But you do you man,....

huh?

Darren was extraordinary in this episode.

Terry stole the show a Ms. DL.

It's like watching a play by an amateur playwright who has no sense of how to create drama or write dialog. I doubt I'll finish it out.

How many episodes are there? I thought I was 10

Random trivia: the hotel where Andrew stayed when he had David come visit him in L.A. was The Langham in Pasadena.

That 'room' is the 'Tournament of Roses Suite.'

And I'm sure now it cost a hell of a lot more than the $2k+bill, especially with all those add-ons of the car/flowers/lobster dinner, etc.

Beautiful nonetheless.

I just can’t with Ricky Martin’s Cesar cut in the flashbacks. And I had a Cesar cut back in 1995!

Buuuummmmpppppp....

Many guys did. Thanks, George Clooney!

[quote] Agree with the posters saying this isn't a documentary so turn it off if it offends your delicate sensibilities.

R352 doesn't understand the concept of reviewing a work. I bet he goes on Rotten Tomatoes or Amazon reviews and tells people: 'Why are you posting reviews, analyzing a work and its significant bad decisions? Don't like it - then close your eyes, people'. In his dream dystopian world there are no dissenting or negative reviews of any work - everyone just watches with praise or stops watching & keeps silent about the work's problems.

It's 9 episodes

agree with above. pitiful script, too many cooks in the kitchen. MESS

THE ALIENIST IS SO SUPERIOR

MURPHY AND COMPANY SHOULD WATCH IT AND LEARN...

casting is everything....

This final (I presume) image of Andrew creeped me out.

The Alienist I just read has 3 times more viewers than that Cunanan thing.

R392 Is that dried up blood or facial/chest hair?

I think it’s blood.

R11, I vote for a series on Alfred Bloomingdale and the much younger dominatrix Vicki Morgan, complete with murder, palimony, Betsy Bloomingdale, and Nancy Reagan!

Andrew saw David talking to Jeff at the party in episode 6 and looked jealous. Was it his perception of their attraction that fueled the ghastly rampage in Minnesota?

[quote]agree with above. pitiful script, too many cooks in the kitchen. MESS

This show has an unusually small writing room. Tom Rob Smith is literally the only credited writer for the entire series. That hardly EVER happens.

[quote]Was it his perception of their attraction that fueled the ghastly rampage in Minnesota?

That was my perception.

The show implies that. The book makes no note of anyone, including Andrew, ever thinking Jeff and David had a thing. They didn't at all as far as we know.

It makes sense though R400. Why would Jeff move to Minneapolis. If it was for work, couldn't he find something better job than a mininum wage manual labor job?

Life can be weird that way, it does seem to be a coincidence that Jeff ended up moving to Minneapolis where David lived.

[quote]AT THE END OF OCTOBER, unable to find a job in San Diego, Jeff culminated a three-month search by landing a job in Minneapolis as a district manager for commercial accounts at Ferrellgas, a propane company that actively recruited ex-military people. Jeff was anxious to repay money he had borrowed from his parents, and promised friends he would come back in six months. Even though Jeff had supposedly cooled toward Andrew, in September he had allowed him to fly along with him to a job interview in Houston. Jeff did not want to be alone. Now Jeff was leaving a warm and sunny place he loved to live in a far harsher climate. The news that Jeff would be in Minneapolis was all the incentive Andrew needed to mount a new campaign to reinsert himself into David’s life. He called David’s loft, and David’s sister Diane Benning answered. “Don’t even call him back,” she instructed. His sister had warned David not to have anything to do with Andrew. But Andrew persisted, with the excuse that David could help show Jeff around.

[quote]While facts may not be accurate, the victims definitely aren't portrayed in a bad light. In fact it's the opposite. They are being portrayed as so giving and incredibly good people.

And in some – or many – cases, likely being portrayed far more sympathetically than they were IRL.

Did Norman Blanchard really have a partner who died of AIDS?

R404 Yes.

I think the conceit of showing the story in reverse order is brilliant. If you watch carefully, you'll see that Andrew's lies and half-truths always refer back to something that happened or someone he knows (and was jealous of). Once you know this, you see how the writer is rewarding you for paying attention, because you are able to connect the dots in your head. But if you're not sophisticated enough to recognize this subtlety, then feel free to complain that they didn't dumb it down enough for you.

Tom Rob Smith is a genius.

[quote]He honestly probably wasn't even thinking of killing anyone till long after Norman dropped his ass.

There is a lot of speculation that Andrew had killed someone in San Diego. He died like Trail died. And Andrew was the one to "find him." A vagrant later plead guilty, but you can never trust the police with people with no power.

[quote]Once you know this, you see how the writer is rewarding you for paying attention, because you are able to connect the dots in your head. But if you're not sophisticated enough to recognize this subtlety, then feel free to complain that they didn't dumb it down enough for you.

I'd pat you on the back for beings so clever, but you beat me to it.

[quote]. But if you're not sophisticated enough to recognize this subtlety, then feel free to complain that they didn't dumb it down enough for you. Tom Rob Smith is a genius.

[bold]MARY!!!]/bold]

This thread could use some Darren ass

R410 I wonder if that beautiful booty has had any dick in it or at least been rimmed?

Attention all gays!

Look into the shadow, and tell me what you see...

R411 Yes

R411 Yes. Probably his girlfriend with a fake dick, cause he says he's straight!

R412 No way! Wouldn't he wear a cock sock?

[quote]Wouldn't he wear a cock sock?

If they were only filming him from the back for that shot I guess he didn't find it necessary to put in on.

R416 But wouldnt he want some modesty on set in front of the director and crew? I mean I realize he would still be basically completely naked, but his junk wouldn't be out on display.

R412 There's no way that's his cock. Has to be something else.

Some actors care about being covered, some don't. Alexander Skarsgard was noted for never wearing a cocksock while filming "True Blood"

Though this helps answer the question where Darren Criss would be okay with a full frontal scene. He doesn't seem to care about being naked.

[quote]Has to be something else.

What else is swinging between his legs casting that shadow as he walks?

[quote]What else is swinging between his legs casting that shadow as he walks?

Ryan Murphy’s tongue?

R421 omg lol

I wouldn't doubt Murphy's been in that general area before.

Hugh Jackman doesn't like to wear cocksocks. The Wolverine movies crew gifted him with a reel of his penis.

[quote]I wouldn't doubt Murphy's been in that general area before.

Murphy is more asexual than people realize. Now ask about Darren Criss and Adam Shankman.

R424 What about Shankman and Criss? And Murphy sure really likes to get his male actors naked for an asexual guy

shit no wonder murphy hired the talentless criss.

HAS TALENT WHERE IT MATTERS .

IMAGINE HIM STRAPPIN THAT THICK ASS AND THIGHS AROUND MY HEAD...

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

R426 STFU!!! Criss is acting very well in this show.

Darren's ass is pretty flat, not gonna lie.

If only Criss was four or five inches taller. His legs looked so squat this episode when he was walking to the pool.

Like the ass,though.

R429 Not nearly as flat as a lot of guys with his build.

I was waiting for Andrew to have a big dramatic Judy Garland moment where he proclaims, "I am Mrs. Norman Blachford!"

So it looks like there are three more episodes: two which continue to go (mostly) backward, then the final one which deals with the aftermath of the final murder and the hunt for Cunanan.

How much time elapsed in this episode? At the beginning, we're told it's a year before the first murder in Minneapolis, but at the end of the episode, he tells his mother he's going there, so has a whole year gone by?

[quote] Embellishment can work both ways.

You mean outright lies can work both ways, R403. Describing some of the bizarre re-writing they did as “embellishment” is a big understatement.

E.g. in a book about you, the author will write that you suffered from a depression disorder and stuck your head in a gas oven. But that’s ok since it’s just “an embellishment”.

THANK YOU R403. These people claiming its not a big deal what the "writers" did with the truth of these peoples lives are the people who find this great storytelling.

It is a travesty.

Shame on the Pink Mafia circa 2018

put ur glasses on Gertie

his ass is thick and fukin hot!

Seems like a love triangle gone horrible awry. And why didn't Versace use bodyguards when he went out in public? He could afford it.

Unless you are the President no one has bodyguards every time they leave their house. Who wants to live that way?

And it wasn't a love triangle in real life, as has been discussed above.

R437, who's the dude with the big tits? Certainly not Darren Criss (or Andrew Cunanan).

The hard thing about the show is that Andrew Cunanan was such a horrible person, and not in a fascinating way.

On the other hand, the camera just loves Darren Criss--he has one of the most striking profiles.

[quote]Unless you are the President no one has bodyguards every time they leave their house. Who wants to live that way?

Yeah, plenty of rich celebs don't have body guards around all the time. Maybe Versace never encountered problems with fans when he was out in public.

I’m still waiting to see what was so charming about Andrew. So far he’s been an obvious flake and annoying.

R442: I have seen Donatella Versace going around in Milan. I didn't notice any bodyguards either.

Last night Donatella was on an italian talk show: she looked quite good (for her standard), her face was less "melty" than usual. Of course no questions were asked about the tv show. Anyway, the host asked her if she knew Donald Trump. She said she met him only once at Mar a Lago: Versace had rented the place to shoot a campaign with Madonna. "Was Trump nice", she was asked. A disgusted Donatella said "He invited us to dinner. Kentucky Fried Chicken. That's all you need to know about him".

Here she is, last night

I love Kentucky Fried Chicken!

^me too, but i can only imagine Donatella and Madonna's faces before the buckets and (THE HORROR) the plastic plates!!

But would you serve it for dinner with the Versaces? I may have sprung for Boston Market. Them being fancy folk and all.

No, R449. But then I'm not Orange Foolius.

Sorry. I love Bret Eason Ellis, and love that he's not all PC. I don't always agree with him, but I admire his boldness.

Rosa Parks was bold, and in some respect non-PC.

B.E. Ellis is a self-hating toad.

R452 Ellis has his follies and foibles, as we all do. But he's smart, and I really enjoy hearing his opinions, even if I don't agree with some of them.

Gays need to be more open minded, if you don't mind me saying. You don't have to agree, but at least understand where people like Ellis are coming from. I would actually love to know his opinion on Versace.

[quote] I would actually love to know his opinion on Versace.

Well, you just go right ahead and ask him r453.

No need to share his response here.

This series is an uncomfortable watch because I have to remember all the phoney people I've had in my life over the decades. Small comfort one learns to edit them out of ones social life or god forbid one's bed. They are still there professionally tough. Creepy borderlines. Also the times I had folie de grandeur when I was young. Ick.

I agree with above. We haven't seen Andrew be someone one would want around. The sugar daddy with the big house who did a background check on Andrew. Was still willing to support Andrew when he say what a lying fake and money grubber he was. That characterisation didn't make much sense to me.

Andrew gave the old guy good head.

R455 Well he'd been found out and still tried to lie to him. Then he just dropped it. He is very fake, but I know people like that and they do have plenty of friends.

[quote]Sorry. I love Bret Eason Ellis, and love that he's not all PC. I don't always agree with him, but I admire his boldness.

OMG, that makes you totally EDGY, too, right?

Yeah, get back to us when he starts using the n-word in interviews.

Going backwards might have been interesting to see with a well-known story, but it does not help at all. It gets more confusing as it goes. Is it over yet? I wonder if I'll like it if I watch it in the reverse sequence. Cunanan is portrayed so oddly though with the cardboard acting, which I am no longer convinced is "his character" after the birthday party episode where his "charisma" was supposed to show through. It did not.

Why would any eldergay want to keep that kind of mess around? Was there ever a shortage of queens who needed sugar daddies?

Yes, it’s over.

There's definitely no "cardboard acting".

Darren Criss is good, in the same sense that my coworker's son was surprisingly good in his high school musical.

Criss is actually quite impressive. Better than the comment above would have someone believe.

The bar for Criss was so low that anything better than his previous TV forays is impressive.

r459 r460 see r433.

Who cares if the bar is low? He's doing a wonderful job and not just in comparison.

What R459 types. Why would anyone keep such a revealed psycho around?

He wasn't much of a psycho at this point. Just an entitled brat.

R461 / r463 / r466 (etc) - Sorry hon, his acting is bad - the complaints about it have been consistent on every thread & elsewhere in critiques of the show. He's one-dimensional and dull. His lines are delivered with no motivation. There is nothing interesting about the character. If you can't tell the difference when you watch him interact with other actors on the show, then I guess you don't understand what acting is.

He was clearly a basket-case in the "lets be real" restaurant dinner with the unrequited love object and equally bat shit with his sugar daddy. He was also insane with the gifts his friend had to give to him. I am speaking of the characters in this fiction we are watching. The military guy - I dunno - i think he would have called bullshit, publicly, when Andrew lied about his career at the party.

[quote]the complaints about it have been consistent on every thread & elsewhere in critiques of the show.

Thanks so much for informing the DL what our opinions are supposed to be!

Um, R471- you did the EXACT same thing to other people's "opinions" about 3 hours ago and again 6 hours ago.

And I wasn't telling you what your opinion should be. I was telling you - you are alone in that opinion. So, enjoy. Good. For all the time and money they wasted on this, someone should like it - even if it's just one.

R471 here.

Actually, I did not as I am not the poster to whom you are referring.

Just another denizen of the DL who recognizes that you are an insufferable twat R472.

I am an insufferable twat because I am saying I agree with 90% of DL and the rest of the critics on shitty acting on some lame tv show that nobody is watching? Wow - How DO you get through your day, you delicate flower princess? Or do you just sit home and collect retirement / disability checks?

R334, not R333 here, but it's not a delicate sensibility. how would you feel if you went through something horrific and then you were painted not as who you are for dramatic license?

R469 R475 How about people can have their own opinions about what they think is and isnt good acting, moron. If you disagree that's fine but don't act all superior. By the way I've seen way more great reviews for the show and his acting than otherwise. No clue what you are seeing.

R473 its gotten amazing reviews. And I like it. My friend like it. Its only bitter old queens who hate everything that hate it.

The script for Andrew isn't great. Maybe its not so much Darren's acting. He's had some good scenes.

Actually r475, you are an insufferable twat because you are an insufferable twat.

R477 - I offered my opinion & got called an insufferable twat & now moron by you. So, listen to your own fucking advice & read the fucking thread properly before talking to me about what I should be doing ok cunt?

And I'm hardly "acting superior" - just because you have an inferiority complex & read my comments that way doesn't mean I intended them that way.

The reviews for this show are not amazing r478.

It got a 74 on metacritic. Positive reviews , but it did not earn rave reviews from the critics.

R481 and R482

Thank you so kindly for so eloquently proving my point.

r480 you've had enough DL today. Seriously. You're not funny, witty, interesting, or offering anything. Go away.

Girls! Girls!! GIRLS!!

You're ALL insufferable twats!!

R483 One of your posts is you seeming to say anyone who thinks he is doing a good job is wrong. That is acting superior. Im fine with you not liking the show but don't tell other people they are wrong in liking it. Also the majority of reviews are positive. Maybe not insanely glowing but still quite positive.

R487 that bitch started the whole thing with his post at r461. So, there's your "acting superior" twat.

85% on Rotten Tomatoes, BIOTCH!

Audience score 93%

R488 Cause he said Criss' acting wasn't bad? So? That's his opinion. He's not saying anyone's wrong in theirs.

Oh, wait - that bitch is you - I just blocked you so I wouldn't have to see this shit anymore & r487 is r461. How ironic! You started this whole idiocy with your comment where you invalidated my opinion to begin with.

Calm the fuck down r489. I am not talking about the whole show. I am talking about one character's acting. If the show was that bad, I wouldn't be watching it anymore. There are 4 threads on this and you've missed EVERY single comment about Criss' acting somehow?

Also, the ratings are low & it's niche so those tend to score higher.

Ugh enough r490 - this isn't 4th grade. The POINT was he was having a meltdown over me "acting superior" by invalidating other people's opinions when he started it to begin with. This board really needs usernames.

Yes, with an average rating of 7.02/10 r489. Those are considered positive, but far from excellent reviews.

Anyway, I wasn't part of this argument. Just wanted to insert in some facts about its critical reception in case people were curious.

shut up! what a dull debate.

Is there anybody here who would fuck this guy? I doubt it which i find to be the show's primary short coming. Cunanan must have been the gay Ted Bundy, charming and magnetic and exceptionally good looking to lure his targets. But none of this is apparant in the show.

R494 I don't know why everyone seems to think Cunanan was some gay Ted Buddy, he wasn't. He was fun but also annoying. Many of his relationships were sustained due to the fact he would spoil his friends/bfs. He used to shower David with fancy gifts and (unlike the show) David took full advantage of that. I wouldn't date the guy but he was getting me into clubs and picking up $300 dinner tabs I would probably be his "friend" too.

R494 His friends were all as bad if not worse then him (personality wise). They weren't killers but they were all users, vapid queens and shameless crystal whores. Him roommate was a hot item in the San Diego scene for being a gay porn actor. 90% of his "friends" sold photos and interviews to the highest paying tabloid during the manhunt and the rest offered up stories for free afterwards. So if you ask "who would accociate with this guy?" Well that's your answer.

R496 So the majority of DL?

I watched a special on this case and they interviewed people who knew him as a "friend" but they said they sensed something off about him and that he could quickly get annoying. Some dropped him and others used him for what he gave them like the other poster said.

The [italic] Master Thespian [/italic] at r469 is the final arbiter of all things ac-ting. No other opinions matter, because [italic] Master Thespian [/italic] has spoken.

why do you continue to engage?

I want to know more about the superior twat and defensive twat

Haven't we all known someone like Cunanan? I know I have. And I think Criss is doing pretty good in the role. The part where Andrew said he slept in the master bedroom reminded me of a guy I knew who had his mother and sister shunted off to the rear of their place while he took over the living room and dining room as kind of his own apartment. He was hot, put on lots of airs, and his father ran an auto salvage yard so he was always driving an Eldorado or a Mercedes when we were both like 19. A lot in this characterization rings true for me. And I like the way Criss is putting it across.

Someone who is a serial killer? No, I don't think I have. How weird to think that everyone has known serial killers

LOL R503. Don't take it so literally. Not every narcissist kept boy wannabe turns out to be a serial killer.

Is he a serial killer or a spree killer?

Serial killer, According to the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), the general definition of spree killer is a person (or more than one person) who commits two or more murders without a cooling-off period; the lack of a cooling-off period marks the difference between a spree killer and a serial killer.

thanks

R506 wouldn’t that make the first four murders spree killings?

R508, not at all. Jeff was bludgeoned 4/27/97, then a gap of few days before David was shot on 5/03. Another day elapsed before Lee was killed 5/04. William was shot on 5/09. Gianni was shot dead on 7/15.

Well, I consider Andrew was a spree killer because of methodology as much as timing. the lapse of a few days isn't enough for me to catagorize him as a serial killer., and his disordered behavior also led me to that conclusion. I'm reading Orth and right now he is in Florida, and she is ragging on the cops and the FBI guys in the Florida office. It's obvious they were uncomfortable dealing with Andrew being Gay, but even moreso, it is the shear level of incompetence from Minnesota, to Chicago, to Florida that is really appalling.

A couple days gap meets the definition of a spree killer, it is only between Reece and Versace that actually actually took a break and stopped murdering for a while.

Also, btw. We don't actually know when David died. 5/03 is his official death day, but he might have been killed as early as 4/29. No way to know for sure.

[quote] The maximum duration between murders in spree killing is generally considered to be seven days. Serial killers, on the other hand, may cool off for weeks, months and, in rare instances, even years between murders.

The first four murders are classified as spree killings, since they take place only a few days apart. Andrew is on the spree killer Wikipedia page. The only cool down period was before Versace’s murder when he was in a Miami for two months. So he is a blend of both.

R496, I didn't know that Cunanan's roommate in San Diego was in gay porn. Was that in Maureen Orth's book, and do you recall the guy's name?

R513 Erik Greenman, it's mentioned in the book but I looked him up and he was in a few late 90's porn videos. I'll post a link if I can find the titles again.

I'LL USE TOM AS MY SEX TOY; Murderer's perverted fantasy about film idol Cruise.

Sick serial killer Andrew Cunanan plotted to kidnap Hollywood star Tom Cruise and sexually torture him.

Former flatmate Erik Greenman revealed: "Andrew was passionately in love with Cruise. He was totally obsessed."

He said Cunanan would play one vile sadistic porn film endlessly and tell how he longed to re-enact it with the Mission Impossible actor.

The scene showed a young man strapped to a chair and tortured with an electric cattle prod.

Greenman, 25, said: "More than once I came home to find Andrew watching that shocking torture scene.

"He'd say: 'I want to tie Cruise up, use him and make him beg for more.' He even referred to his nightly visits to gay bars as Tom Cruising."

The serial killer turned his room into a shrine to Cruise, collecting newspaper cuttings and buying his videos.

But he hated Cruise's wife Nicole. Greenman said: "He told me he'd like to kill her so he could have Tom all to himself.

"He also boasted he would kill the actor if he couldn't have him sexually."

Cunanan deliberately sought out Cruise lookalikes in gay bars to sexually torture later with whips and chains.

Greenman said: "He took them to a bath house or a hotel before arriving home at 4am."

He added: "Andrew's mind was warped beyond repair. He had pictures of Tom plastered all over his bedroom.

"He'd rent five Cruise videos and spend the whole evening stopping them frame by frame studying Tom's every gesture. He told me: 'Tom ages like fine wine. He's the perfect boy toy'.

"Tom was everything Andrew wanted in a lover - hairless, boyish frame and incredible smile.

"He described bizarre sexual fantasies about dressing Tom in full leather bondage and outfits and dominating and humiliating him.

"He was so nuts over Tom that every time he headed to the bathroom he'd grab an article from his shrine and read it in there."

Another pal revealed that Cunanan claimed he was approached by comedy star Eddie Murphy while working as a transvestite hooker in West Hollywood.

Mike Scott, a Los Angeles-based male model, alleged: "Andrew said Murphy beeped his horn and got him over. He was about to get in the car when the cops came around the corner and Murphy panicked and drove off. He doesn't know how lucky he is."

Deranged Cunanan also bragged he:

WAS beaten "black and blue" by his father throughout his childhood.

MAY have infected Hollywood stars with AIDS.

Thanks, r514. When I google "Erik Greenman" and "Cunanan," all kinds of articles pop up.

R517 he did porn under the name "josh conners" here is a list of his films.

Erik at 0:24 in the video (and the screenshot apparently)

What was Erik's porn name?

I think I found Erik on Facebook. He has a photo of an S&M Stewie from Family Guy. ugh.

More photos of Erik.

[quote]We don't actually know when David died. 5/03 is his official death day, but he might have been killed as early as 4/29. No way to know for sure.

How is this possible? Even back in the '50s and '60s they could estimate the time of death much more accurately than that.

Is there any video footage of the real Andrew out there?

How do some people here think David wasn't attractive? He was gorgeous.

Do you mean the actual David Madsen was gorgeous or that the actor who plays him, Cody Fern, is gorgeous?

They look very different.

That one photo that seems to be most prevalent isn't the most flattering, R525. I've seen other pictures of him where he is really handsome.

[quote] If you can't tell the difference when you watch him interact with other actors on the show, then I guess you don't understand what acting is.

My, we ARE superior!

R516 the timing of the Eddie Murphy thing is very interesting to me.

The world was completely unaware of Eddie's thing for Asian trans women until May 2, 1997. That was the day he was pulled over at 4:45am with Shalimar Seiuli in his car. This timeframe falls between the murders of David Madson and Jeff Trail. Cunanan would not have been in contact with Erik Greenman after his murder spree started.

This means that, assuming Greenman is telling the truth, Cunanan wasn't making it up. He very likely WAS approached by Eddie Murphy while he was dressed as a trans. Cunanan wouldn't have known about Murphy's thing for Asian trans otherwise.

CRAZY SHIT! Eddie Murphy tried to have sex with Andrew Cunanan!

R516 Right. Since he was not HIV+.

The trolls on this thread.

Fingers crossed they show Darren Criss dressed up like Julia Roberts in Pretty Woman when Eddie Murphy (played by Arsenio Hall) pulls up in a Rolls-Royce.

How did being a tranny street walker fit into Andrew's folie de grandeur? This is a new detail, to me.

There were many "stories" about Cunanan that circulated. The transvestite thing was bullshit. But yes at one time there the cops/media were warning being the gay serial killer might be dressed as a woman, it was considered pretty eye-roll inducing.

So now we have stupid and gay! trolls who believe Andrew was a cross dresser AND he was an AIDS Typhoid Mary?! Murderous Mary... Poppins!

R534 those are quoted tabloid stories that were printed in 1997. Erik made up that tom cruse story after the globe offered him $85,000 for "a juicy interview". His friends were all horrible.

R532 & R533 see R535 above.

R518 Lord he's still whoring 20 years later.

OMG the Nob Hill Theater is still there! Has anyone ever been to that place? Back in the 80s I dropped my BF off there so he could see Lee Ryder who was his idol of idols. He told me afterwards that the fantasy was better on video.

R537 different Josh Conners unfortunately

can they make it so criss's hot ass does the talking and hot his .....uh......face?

Spree Killer sounds frivolous; light and breezy. On a Spree through Gay Paree!

Spring Spree with SJP

Use new Spring Spree Douche for that April-fresh feeling "down there!"

[quote]Why Didn’t ‘The Assassination of Gianni Versace’ Catch On?

R544 Too much gayness for most people. It knocks off a giant group of people based simply on that.

r545......DING, DING, DING....and we have THE winner !

with each episode I lose interest more.

which episode did matt bomer direct ??

You just can't believe the stories a bunch of drag queens and tranny escorts in SoCal were claiming about Cunanan. Those are people who will say ANYTHING to get attention --they were heaven-sent for the National Enquirer.

I wonder what Andrew thought of Früsen Gladje.

[quote] Do you mean the actual David Madsen was gorgeous or that the actor who plays him, Cody Fern, is gorgeous?

David. He wasn't unattractive at all.

In some photos David Madson was very handsome

My, that red hair is atrocious on the catty guy.

Molly Price was brilliant as the escort agency recruiter.

Conspiracy Theories

In a bizarre twist of events, a dead turtle dove was found next to the body of Gianni Versace. Police had written the event off as freak coincidence. One of the bullets Cunanan had fired had struck the gate of Versace's mansion and a fragment had ricocheted and hit the dove. That explanation however, did not stop conspiracy theories that the dove was left as a message.

"One of the first motives that we felt was a possibility, was… that it was a contract hit, or organized crime, Mafia if you will because there was a dead bird found next to the body," said Carlos Noriega, a former lieutenant with the Miami Beach Police Department.

Well, Penelope got her episode.

Did Versace really have ear cancer?

R555 At the time, Versace was very sick and "ear cancer" was the excuse. He got better right around the time the new HIV cocktail came out.

Michael Nouri is GOOD LOOKING.

R557 I know right, it's a show so everyone looks better than their true life counterparts but I'm like "seriously Andrew?" That house, that money, and he's not even gross, just older...

Darren Criss doesn’t look Asian so that scene with the escort agency lady was stupid.

I agree R559. A pimp would sell you LaWanda Page and tell you she was a dead ringer for Taylor Swift.

An agency for gay escorts is extremely rare (in the U.S.). They have been a few, but none run by a woman.

R561 the scene was not in Orth's book. It was apparently inspired by a passage in Truman Capote's Answered Prayers, where the male protagonist went to a cold-assed blonde woman who ran an escort agency, The Self Service.

Interesting episode showing the murder of norman’s Bf —referred to earlier in this thread.

Andrew finally had a taste of the high life. When he lost it (and the guy he liked), he snapped

I like this show but it seems unfocused with the direction it went in this episode. Apparently they cut a lot of stuff and were changing it while filming. It kind of shows.

R564, source?

It was kind of weird to have Finn back in this episode for me. I guess I lost track of the timeline and thought we were going back before they knew each other.

Next week we get Andrew in high school. Did you know he was voted 'Most Likely to Be Remembered' by his senior class. They weren't wrong...

R562 that exact scene wasn't in the book, however it was mentioned that Andrew was in contact with some sort of escort agency that basically denied him. He was able to get older men due to the fact he was young, and able to hold a conversation. He also knew a lot about subjects most 20-25 year olds did not.

R565 It's from the latest edition of a Vanity Fair podcast called Still Watching: Versace. Tried to post a link that didn't work.

Thanks r556. I didn't think that was really true, but if he did have hearing sudden hearing loss, it's possible cancer may have been the reason.

So, the part where Andrew walks in Norman's bf being murdered was dramatic license, I take it?

They really shouldn’t have included the shot of Lincoln’s battered head.

What was Norman's occupation? Something with oil I thought I heard Andrew say?

That house was gorgeous. TV Norman wasn't bad, either! Tall, kind, and had a nice head of hair. Yes, please.

It's crazy how tv can go all in on the violence crap but will wimp out on the sexual stuff. The escort plot was a bit weak. Well thats american television for you.

R573 I agree however I was shocked they even showed a quick scene of Andrew and David naked in the shower. 10, hell even 5 years ago their is no way that would be shown on a network show. Not two men anyway...

I've always thought Michael Nouri was a good looking man, from Flashdance to today.

Regarding the escort service scene:

[quote]The scene of Andrew being degraded and rejected by a mercenary escort-service owner who “can’t sell a clever Filipino, even one with a big dick” served its purpose, i.e. motivating Cunanan to set out on his own in search of wealthy older men he can seduce. But there’s nothing to verify that such a specifically humiliating encounter occurred. In fact, Orth reported that Cunanan was in the employ of an escort service circa the early ’90s, working in both California and Florida. Contrarily, a cringingly dated Washington Post story subsequent to Cunanan’s death on Andrew and other “trophy boys” puts forth that he was primarily an independent contractor. Either way, the job interview portrayed in “Ascent” appears to be more of a storytelling contrivance than concrete catalyst.

Nouri was a great beauty back in the day, that’s for sure.

R573 Yeah, not saying I wanted anything explicit but there was no indication that Cunanan and Norman had anything sexual going on.

R578 if you want to see a young man fuck a skeleton go watch "Call Me By Your Name"

Yes that was a perfect recreation of the La Jolla Playhouse. Perfect.

R579 if you're referring to Armie Hammer, I'd fuck that "skeleton" in a heartbeat.

A skeleton? Michael Nouri is not that.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

each episode gets more desparate...

Trust with d Sutherland looks better: well written n cast

o dear, marys are still bitter over that georgous work CALL ME BY YOUR NAME

BEST FUCKING PICTURE OF THE YEAR

seek help, my ducks, ur dreams can be restored at some cost....

He was well endowed? That's what they said tonight.

so much of it is lies.....who can say.. half of the show is fiction.....alas

Is Cody Fern gay?

Penelope Cruz is simply fabulous.

Also, I think I'm in love with Donatella now.

the alienist is so much better than this. better ratings too

I have to shower after watching Versace....

repugnantly sordid and amateurish

More deliciously bitchy Terry Sweeney in the new episode, he looked suspicious of Andrew from the start

is Andrew the MAN WITH THE SILVER SMILE

There was a smidge of Andre Leon Talley realness in the background of that scene where Dontella is getting photographed. Not full on caftan Andre, but still.

Did Donatella and Gianni talk to each other in English with Italian accents?

Would you rather read subtitles or hear them speak in English?

Michael nouri is hot silver fox

was hot bak in the day too, only yesterday....

With Terry Sweeney as The DataLounge

odd they threw this queen into the mix

gee thx ryan

I like the scenes between Donatella and Gianni. The argument over the complexity of the dress was interesting. I wonder how real it was. Donatella was more business minded and Gianni expected everyone to wear a leather dress like that - to go out day-to-day?

I love Gallo the bitchy queen.

The one-liners are very campy, but still funny.

Almost at 600 . Here is thread 5

IMO the escort service "audition " scene was bullshit. Just going by the way the TV version set that scene, there is no way an escort service would have turned Andrew down if he were good looking or well endowed which he was in his younger days, before he went to fat. According to the TV version, this did happen in his younger days, before he met Norman and Lincoln. And honestly it's the married, closeted guys, and Older men who would have been his main clientele. So the scene wasn't believable.

Now the way Orth described it in real life was more believable. It happened in Florida in the weeks before the Versace murder. He was turned down by the escort service because he was an obvious Druggie (meth), looked too old and burned out, and he was physically way out of shape. So instead, he had his new friend pimp for him and he did his own soliciting and that's how he lived in addition to selling drugs.

The other thing I was pissed about was Lincoln's murder. There were rumors that some how Andrew was involved, but that was all after he killed Versace. Before he killed Versace, no one looked at him as a perp for Lincoln's murder. And the TV version puts him in the house as an eye-witness who narrowly escaped. Complete bullshit.

I thought a few episodes ago, when Jeff met Andrew for the first time at the bar, Andrew was already a “kept boy” as he appeared haughty and very self-confident. In last night’s episode, he was still working at the drugstore, hating his life, and he and Jeff were already good friends at the bar. Sloppy editing.