Gymnast Kathy Johnson Clarke

Brian and Kathy. Oh, those blondes get it later in life.

Kathy at the 84 Olympics

He was one of my first crushes as Merle "The Pearl" Oberon on Eight is Enough.

Kathy looks fine. She's in her 50s, battled an eating disorder for years and has never had plastic surgery, all things considered she looks completely appropriate for her age. She was nearly 25 at the LA Olympics, almost ten years older than Mary Lou Retton, so even then she wasn't a baby.

She always looked a little older than she was... lucky for her too. That's why Don Peters left her alone!

Don Peters left her alone because she already looked like his mother.

She has a little bit of Tonya Harding in her looks.

Kathy herself admitted battling an eating disorder in her late teens in order to try to look younger. However, she claimed to have conquered it by 1979. It's very bad genes. Her mom looked equally bad at the 80 Olympic trials.

Her looks are one of the main reasons NBC never hired her for gymnastics commentary. Why they stuck with that Canuck bitch Elfie whateverhernameis for so long, I'll never know.

She deserves some credit for sticking around and making it to 84.

R9.. Elfie was a former gymnast as well... and very flexible. She used that to her advantage.

This beeeetch no good as me!!

I'm aware of that, but are they saying that there were no American female gymnasts who could have provided worthy commentary and also had more of name value in the States. Elfi had a very similar approach to broadcasting as Kathy.

And that was rhetorical because look at how long they've stuck with Tim Daggett, who is one of the worst commentators in any sport that I've ever heard.

None of you white American bitches could tumble back to back like ME!!!

And I'm talkin' to you Shannon Miller, you birdfaced mousy bitch! !

Fuck you, Dominique. I did it ten years before you did.

R13 you missed the point. The American Girls just weren't willing to do what Elfie was!

[quote]None of you white American bitches could tumble back to back like ME!!!

Nor could we fall on our big butts at not just one but TWO consecutive worlds, losing a chance at two titles to... ME!

Which was what exactly R18, give Dick Eberson head?

Bingo, R20!

You still an ugly bitch, Shannon, despite your plastic surgery... and at least I never married a gay husband! !

[quote]And that was rhetorical because look at how long they've stuck with Tim Daggett, who is one of the worst commentators in any sport that I've ever heard.

I guess you've never had the pleasure of hearing me!

[quote]You still an ugly bitch, Shannon, despite your plastic surgery... and at least I never married a gay husband! !

Well... I'm the most decorated US Gymnast in history... and I'm not a closeted Lesbian... unlike some of my former African-American teammates.

MY PUSSY STINKS!!!

What was that Dom?

Nobody repeats quite like Dawes!

Don't forget about ME! The REAL Dominique!

Shouldnt you be busy divorcing your Eurotrash parents, Ms. Moceanu, or being an underage whore sucking cock in the Cayman Islands? ?

Didn't realize until I read the thread that Johnson had eating disorders (no surprise in that sport) .........but when I saw that video the first thing I thought was 'a lifetime of being too thin and getting too much sun)

But she certainly doesn't look THIRTY years older than her real age, OP.

All of you bitches need to bow down to the great of your GRAND WIZARD, ME, AMY CHOW!!!

R30, I said she looked 40 years older, but you get my drift. Her mom looked equally ancient when Kathy competed and she was very fat. Kathy talked about her eating disorder in IG. She said she was the oldest gymnast and although she couldn't be 13 again, she could look like it. Ironically, she felt she found her cure when she went to Don Peters who allowed her to use her weight and maturity in her sport.

Sun damage is a very real possibility because both she and Brian are long distance runners.

Brian looks fine for a 60+ year old.

The sun darlings, the sun. Blondes are especially susceptible to premature wrinkling if they spend too much time in the sun without an SPF lotion on.

I'm just telling everyone it was meth.

That's what an average 51 year old white woman who hasn't had plastic surgery looks like.

Women in sports age particularly badly, mostly due to sun damage. Back in her day as well, sunscreen wasn't much of a thing.

But it is slightly hilarious that someone thought "51 year old women looks significantly rougher than she did when young" was thread worthy, particularly on a gay site.

Good for them for aging naturally.

Darling R37, gays talk more about women aging roughly than anything. Maybe if you dykes did the same, you might not have a thread devoted to why you care so little about your appearance.

[quote]Women in sports age particularly badly, mostly due to sun damage.

Why would this impact a gymnast?

Yes, R31... don't forget about ME!

Amy Chow was a phenom when it came to the skills she could do... but the problem was that she was so wooden and awkward to watch.

You American girls were never any good on beam. Just watch ME!

p.s. Kathy was always a better commentator than Elfie.

Dominique Dawes was part of three Olympic medal winning teams. No other American woman has ever done it nor is likely to do it again.

Kui was more difficult but Yang Bo, in my eyes, remains the best beam worker ever. Watch how perfectly the elements are woven together and the rocking horse leaps were started by her. Even the simple full turn becomes a beautiful move. Best is the unreal combo of the back handsprings into the full twisting straddle down.

R45.. agreed. Surprised someone else here remembers her. This was one of her best routines:

[quote]Dominique Dawes was part of three Olympic medal winning teams. No other American woman has ever done it nor is likely to do it again.

Everyone knows that was only by default.

Not to take anything away from Dawes achievements Teodora but they came after the fall of the Communist bloc. Traditional powers like USSR and East Germany were no longer the red machines that churned out athletic champions like so much Kleenex.

Oh you Americans so easily impressed. Kathy was in her 20's when she went to her Olympics? So what?

I'll be 41 and headed to my EIGHTH Olympics this year!

Correction, my SEVENTH. I'm a gymnast, we don't do math.

I'M FEELING VERY IGNORED HERE AND I DON'T LIKE IT ONE BIT!!

[quote]—Kerri Strug, one-legged savior of Atlanta

You aren't needed and never were.

P.S. we already had the Gold when you stupidly injured yourself and ended your career.

LICK my furry pussy, R52!! Nom nom nom

Everyone know I was the best American gymnast in training, CONSTANTLy beating the likes of Kim Zmeskal, Shannon MIller and Dominique Moceanu in training sessions! It's a travesty that I was constantly overlooked by the media in favor of those bitches!

[quote]Everyone know I was the best American gymnast in training, CONSTANTLy beating the likes of Kim Zmeskal, Shannon MIller and Dominique Moceanu in training sessions! It's a travesty that I was constantly overlooked by the media in favor of those bitches!

Yes, because killing it in training and choking in competition is what counts!

Strug struggling!

[quote]He was one of my first crushes as Merle "The Pearl" Oberon on Eight is Enough.

You seriously think they named a character "Merle Oberon"?

Why did Shannon Miller always look like she was wearing a pamper beneath her leotard?

As a gymnastics fan in the 90s, I'm finding this thread is hilarious!

[quote] Well... I'm the most decorated US Gymnast in history...

Not for long! I got your number, hussy..

[quote]—Simone Biles

Please... we ALL know you don't count. And you're not going to sweep like I did at TWO Olympics.

With all due respect Miss Shannon, you can get on your knees and kiss my BLACK ass.

Now outta here with you, and take Dominique Dawes and Gabby Douglas with you, while you at it! There's a new black queen, and everyone knows my gymnastics is fingerlickin' good!

Kathy Johnson also said she because of her eating disorder and gymnastics training she didn't get her period until she was 24.

Yang Bo is the queen of beam! The greatest ever, so glad she got some love here.

Simone Biles might win 5 gold medals at the Olympics next year. She's like the Michael Phelps of gymnastics, she's won the World All-Around title three years in a row. Never been done before (though never possible in consecutive years until about ten years ago). The only event she has no chance in is uneven bars because that's the only event Russia is good on these days and the Chinese always have one or two stars there, as well.

[quote]Never been done before (though never possible in consecutive years until about ten years ago).

Exactly.. it's why her accomplishments aren't that impressive and just don't count. If the All-Around were held every year, they would have handed Shannon three consecutive wins too!

[quote] If the All-Around were held every year, they would have handed Shannon three consecutive wins too!

The World Gymnastics all-around was held 3 years in a row during Shannon's era (1993, 1994, and 1995).

But thanks to ME, the world was spared from Shannon's ginormous scrunchie winning the title for a THIRD time!

OH, that's right, Lilia... I forgot about you... like the rest of the world.

Mo Huilan? Who was that, again?

Oh yeah! Her!

Did China end up beheading her for failing at the Olympics?

I LOVE this thread! Especially the special guest appearances by Ms. Dominique Dawes and Shannon Miller!

Gymnastics used to be so much fun to follow in the 90s! Why are the gymnasts so blah these days?

[quote]Lilia P., polishing my two Olympic gold medals

Mo has become a huge Entertainer in China... not a prostitute like you, Lilia.

By the way, everyone knows they handed you both Golds. Your routines sucked and completely lacked difficulty.

Simone... you can kindly sit down. Nobody will be offering you movies or endorsements because... well, let's just say... you have a face only a mother could love.

You'll never be me... 3-time Olympian AND the only one of these has beens to star on Broadway!

Blonde or not, athlete or not, sun-damaged or not. That is one of the worst cases of female aging I've ever seen. There's really no excuse for it, not in this day and age.

Oh look everyone, I've found Mo Huilan in 2016!

Unfortunately, she's not looking too good!

Oh, Simona... still so bitter that your lover had to give up her Gold?

Mo Huilan really was the best All-around gymnast of the 90s. She was beautiful to watch on all 4 events, each packed with originality and difficulty. Too bad her federation turned her into a nervous basket-case by the time she competed in Atlanta.

[quote]—Simona Amanar, shaking her titties

Excuse me, I am the Romanian Gymnastics Treasure that shakes her titties!

[quote]Excuse me, I am the Romanian Gymnastics Treasure that shakes her titties!

And her vagina!

What about ME!

^^^

Is that Justin Timberlake circa 1996?

Mo's scores were low-balled at the 96 Games while Lilia's were inflated.

Mo totally was screwed in 96. Even with her lousy floor routine, she should've still walked away with an AA silver had her bars and vault been scored fairly.

I hated Lilia's beam work. For all her pristine form, she sounded like a lumberjack on beam. Very clunky and heavy. Mo floated on the beam with grace.

Kathy: She's been around for a while. I competed with her.

Bart: You mean way back then, Kathy?

Kathy: Thank you, Bart.

R80 if Mo had been scored fairly on bars and vault she would have won Gold even with the step out on her floor.

I remember Lilia having several errors and not being deducted at all.

Mo's AA bars:

Lilia's bars with a major error... and yet she somehow got the same score as Mo.

82 responses and no mention of [bold][italic] ME?? [/bold][/italic]

I was not only the face of Romanian gymnastics, but I did a helluva job tucking my cock before meets!

[QUOTE] battled an eating disorder for years and has never had plastic surgery

That was my first thought when I saw her image, that being (that) she looks like someone who once had an eating disorder. Their flesh often looks petrified.

Mo Huilan was ridiculously overscored on her AA beam, with her stumbling dismount and still a 9.800??

[quote]—Gina Gogean

No one's mentioned you because you were BORING. The only time you ever did anything interesting was when you did this routine on speed.

[quote]The only time you ever did anything interesting was when you did this routine on speed.

And when you cracked your head open on beam:

[quote]82 responses and no mention of ME??

Let me correct that for you...

90 responses and no mention of ME???

I am the Painted Bird of Odessa who won the Gold under tremendous pressure... the weight of knowing if I didn't, my entire family would be executed.

The Romanians did have an incredibly high number of ugly girls. There were some cute ones like Cutina and Dobre but often they were like Eberle, Gogean, Silivas and Szabo.

"Before you know it, I'll grow up to be a big, fat Romanian woman with fat thighs and a mustache like my mother. We don't age so good." Gilda as Nadia

You were also the Ukrainian bitch who cheated by participating in the AA when you did not qualify fairly!!

You also tried POISONING ME!!!!

[quote]There were some cute ones like Cutina and Dobre

I'm glad SOMEONE mentioned me!!!

[quote]You were also the Ukrainian bitch who cheated by participating in the AA when you did not qualify fairly!! You also tried POISONING ME!!!!—Roza Galieva, rightful qualifier to the 92 AA, throwing shade from Uzbekistan

Oh, shut up, Roza, you were injured! You were also ugly and only qualified because I was the one forced to do all the difficult skills.. and there was no way you would have even finished in the top 10.

94 responses and no mention of ME... the champion who was cheated out of the 91 Worlds and 92 Olympics????

La-la-la La-la-la, I can't HEAR YOU!!

I can only smell your bitch's jealousy even all the way out here in Romania!

What about ME?

I was abused by Karolyi! Well, I was really just pissed that he wouldn't name me to the 2000 Olympic squad.. but whatever, Abuse!

This must be Bizarro-DL, as nearly 100 responses and no mention of DL GODDESS Svetlana Khorkina?

You luckily must have missed R77, R98.

^ You mean the way Khorkina also MISSED a proper block on the incorrectly-adjusted Sydney AA vault horse?

I wonder if Kristie Phillips adjusted the horse for her.

^ R100 don't forget she went on to do this fantastic bars set.

Kristie at R101... nobody called for you. Don't you have Pudding Pops you need to take to your mother?

I'M STILL FEELING VERY IGNORED AND I DON'T LIKE IT! I DON'T LIKE IT ONE LITTLE BIT!!

Fuck you, asshole. My mom had to give up Pudding Pops for a whole week in order to get me to Texas. And I starred in a fucking movie, so go douche with Drano.

Kristie at R105... porno does not count as film work. Nevermind, you said, "fucking movie," so you didn't lie.

Anyway, this forum is for champions... you know, those of us who actually made it to the Olympics.

Listen cunt R106, I would have made it to the Olympics if any of those bitches on the team allowed me to adjust their equipment like mom and I planned.

Coulda Woulda Shoulda, Kristie!

Oh Phoebe, go back to the diving board and do a reverse two and half onto your ugly mug. You obviously knew your bronze medal was a fluke so you, like that other cunt Mary Lou quickly retired.

Yes, R109... and yet I qualified into the AA and two event finals... and Kristie qualified for...Over Eaters Anonymous.

And get your facts straight. I didn't retire after the Olympics. I continued on until my Epstein-Barr wouldn't allow it. I then went on to successful Diving, Snowboarding, and Muff Eating careers.

Fuck off Phoebe. Everyone knows I got my big bones from my mother. And I still get fan letters all over from people who cherish their Beta copies of "Spitfire" I always imagine when I give that Commie bitch a seizure, it was really you doing your stupid Addams Family floor exercise.

Ooooh girls, it's Monday, and I'm gonna have me some of Alec Yoder's balls to play with today!

You bitches jealous yet??

That black bitch is nothing compared to me. And I got myself a white boy, too.

I [bold]SPEET[/bold] on you all from culd maw of SPESS!

That thieving bitch Olga Korbut stole my hair bows!

I vanted to ride coattails of Nadia, but my name sounded like weterinary disease, no?

All these posts and no one has mentioned Elena Shushunova being able to compete as the world's first Male-to-Female transgender at the 88 Olympics???

I saw her tuck her cock in the Seoul locker room but no one would believe me!

That's a man, baby!!

Shushunova looked like 58in Seoul, I can only imagine what she looks like now.

Silivas didn't look like any ingenue either.

No, R112.. not in the least. Who hasn't had to beard for one of our male team mates?

Man - Shushonova and Dominique Dawes had some rather manly side-scales on beam. I like those gymnasts and all - but their side-scales were kinda butch!

R96 is the fakest post in this thread (and that is saying a ton) - because there is no way that Gina Gogean will ever have anywhere near enough personality to twerk. She has been a corpse since 1993 - and when you are dead, you ain't coming back. Why do you think that one gymnastics messageboard named their virtual cemetery (a place where they dump threads that they want to kill) after her?

I remember when she wrote some open letter, or article - denouncing some Romanian gymnasts who dared to protest the fucked-up, soul-killing training regime. She came across as a completely uptight, arrogant, condescending corpse. She is DEAD.

R91 - I think Ecaterina Szabo was pretty when she was Mary Lou Retton's bridesmaid at the 1984 Olympics - but by 1985 Worlds, it was like she had aged 20 years. Credit to her for continuing to compete through 1987 and showing some quality gymnastics - even if she did look like she should have had daughters who were on those teams with her.

Actually, I can appreciate the mature look that she and Elena Shushonova brought to mid-'80s gymnastics.

Dominique at R70 - leave it to you to criticize the looks of folks who are more racially pure than you are. Go ahead and pat yourself on the back for your watered-down blackness - as though your thin lips, caramel skin, and wavy hair make you prettier than I. My full-twisting double back off beam has much better form than yours did on your best day - and I can think of some other things that I do better than you did, too. Crybaby!

[quote] Why do you think that one gymnastics messageboard named their virtual cemetery (a place where they dump threads that they want to kill) after her?

That one gymnastics messageboard is a virtual cemetery itself, so maybe that whole website should be renamed DEADGINA, instead of just one forum.

R117, Ironic that the gymnast who pioneered her eponymous skill on beam that is infamous for being punishing on the crotch has a dick! Training it must have been rather sadomasochistic:

R125 - tell the truth and shame the devil. Your proposal sounds like a good one to me - but a certain big-headed (figuratively and literally) someone would never do it.

You can all kiss my tiny, perky ass!

Cathy you've always been a slut. When you did those naked shots for SI, I hope they sanitized the beam after you got done with it because who knows where your vajayjay had been.

Dominique Dawes was never nominated for a Tony!

R78 wins this joint - though I suspect that s/he is also Rs 1 through 130.

Wait - I actually meant that R125 wins.

Dominique Dawes didn't pursue the acting/Broadway thing for very long, though at one point she expressed ambitions of being a movie star. I wonder what happened? Did her butch lookalike Jada Pinkett-Smith verbally harass her into dropping the idea?

[quote]I remember when she wrote some open letter, or article - denouncing some Romanian gymnasts who dared to protest the fucked-up, soul-killing training regime. She came across as a completely uptight, arrogant, condescending corpse. She is DEAD.

Hadn't heard about this until you mentioned it. Linked below. To say that she comes off as an arrogant, condescending corpse is ridiculous...

[quote]“I am shocked by the manner in which mediocre gymnasts, who only managed to win one medal and that in a team competition, who were accepted by the team and only excelled with the team, can throw dirt/smear the work and the results built upon sweat, effort and self-sacrifice at Deva. I am referring to Sabina Cojocar, who is better known since she started this scandal than she ever was in her entire career

That right there shows she's a shady cunt worth of becoming a DL Icon!

Who knew the little bitch had it in her?

*worthy of

So Gogean is really not any worst than Zmeskal, Okino, Retton who justify the Karoyli's abuse, then?

I've always found it interesting with regards to former Karloyi students and abuse accusations because there are quite a few who have changed their tune through the years, all of whom are American and all of whom are involved in some way with Elite gymnastics in the U.S. namely, Kristie Phillips and Chelle Stack (off the top of my head), others like Zmeskal never made accusations but also were always involved with the sport (Kim opened her gym not long after retirement). It served their professional interests to renege on their previous abuse accusations. Okino I'm not as sure about, she made some anti-Karolyi statements in Joan Ryan's book, but then claimed she was misquoted.

Now there are a slew of Bela's Romanian pupils who have levelled charges at him and have not rescinded: Szabo, Ruhn, Eberle, to name just a few. It's interesting because back in the day before Nadia had her image overhaul post-defection, there was clearly no love lost between her and the Karolyi's but I don't know if she ever was explicit with what her issues with them were. Once Nadia was cleaned up by Paul Ziert/Bart Conner, she refrained from making any negative comments, though she has never gone out of her way to support them and you NEVER see her interacting with them in any way at public events. That said, it is telling that even after the Romanian National team was returned to Karolyi after they had been taken away briefly in about '77-'78, neither Nadia or Teodora Ungureanu (the other top Romanian who had medalled in bars and beam in Montreal) returned to Karolyi as their personal coach. It will be interesting to see how the Karolyi's legacy plays out once they've lost their power/influence in U.S. gymnastics, because right now Marta runs the whole damn thing.

[quote] Karolyi after they had been taken away briefly in about '77-'78, neither Nadia or Teodora Ungureanu (the other top Romanian who had medalled in bars and beam in Montreal) returned to Karolyi as their personal coach.

Who was her coach in 1980?

Although I agree with the bulk of your post R137, I don't know if the timeline is quite correct. Nadia has stated several times that she returned to Karolyi, first after she gained the weight and made a comeback of sorts in 78, then at the 79 Worlds in Texas where she got the team Gold with a one handed beam routine and then the 80 Olympics. Karolyi defected in 81 and I don't think Nadia ever competed or dutifully trained after Moscow. Ungureanu was something of an afterthought after Montreal and Romania moved on very quickly to newer, younger girls. Karolyi was the Olympic coach but claimed Romania took the designation away from him when he refused to lie about the ages of Szabo and his then rising star Anka Kiss. Anyone can clearly see that's a total lie.

Blondes don't seem to age well. And from what I can see, most avid athletes (elite runners, etc) end up looking young(ish) from the neck down --- although, usually a little leathery- and ropey-looking --- and hard and dried-up, facially. Moderation is still the way to go.

R137 the abuse allegations are certainly interesting but I find it also interesting as to which gymnasts also level abuse allegations at Bela. Most of the ones that have come forward about Karolyi (at least in the US), also had beef/issues with him for not making their careers happen, Kristi Phillips for example.

Another example is Dominique Moceanu. She cried abuse allegations only after Bela wouldn't name her to the 2000 team and then when Marta wouldn't let her compete in 2006. None of her teammates corroborated her stories of abuse and, whether they did happen or not, it also seems like Dominique is also taking her frustrations out about her own father on Bela.

You don't hear allegations against him from his gymnasts like Nadia, Mary Lou, Kim, etc. That might be expected if you go with the belief that they were successful and don't want to tarnish the image. However, I think it's worth looking at some of the other gymnasts who came through his gym and have nothing to do with the sport now, so have no reason to not say anything. Gymnasts like, Dianne Durham, Betty Okino, Kerri Strug, Brandi Johnson, Phoebe Mills, Jenny Thompson, Kelly Pitzen, Amy Scherr. Some of them aren't big names, so maybe nobody's asked them.

Anyway, I find it all really interesting because you can view it both ways. You could say the big names don't cry abuse because he made them champions... but you could also say that the ones complaining are only doing so because they're bitter about the years they spent that didn't get them where they wanted.

And for the record, I can totally see Bela being verbally abusive.

Also R137 to say that Nadia doesn't have much to do with the Karolyi's isn't exactly true. You can find several pictures of her with them, a lot of which are fairly recent.

[quote]there was clearly no love lost between her and the Karolyi's but I don't know if she ever was explicit with what her issues with them were.

I remember reading something where Nadia stated she was pissed at the Karolyi's for defecting and leaving her alone. She said something like she was pissed they didn't tell her, pissed they didn't take her with them, and pissed that she felt like they basically abandoned her when she had come to depend on them.

The Americans never seem to have great feet like Liilia or Bo.

....

Why did Bart and Nadia marry?

They're bearding for each other R146. It was also a plan to bring them millions. It worked.

Do you even have to ask R146? What I'd like to know is if Paul Ziert, Bart's queen of a coach ever came out. The first time I heard him talk, the gym bag fell out of his mouth. Long time rumors that he and Bart were lovers.

You silly Bo and Mo fans... I was the real deal.

First Olympic AA Medalist and First Gold Medalist on Beam for our country. And I made it TWO Olympics.

You silly Bo and Mo fans... I was the real deal.

First Olympic AA Medalist and First Gold Medalist on Beam for our country. And I made it TWO Olympics.

R150, look how long it takes her to set up her tumbling skills. She comes to a dead stop. Bo made each element flow into the next.

BO DIDNT WIN GOLD DID SHE? BO COULDNT EVEN STAY ON.. Not to mention nearly falling off 3 times just standing on the beam!

Bo and Mo were the most talented Chinese beam workers, no doubt, but the unfortunately they also happened to be the biggest headcases the Chinese team ever produced.

[quote]Bo and Mo were the most talented Chinese beam workers,

Excuse me?

Why is there no love for me????

I liked Dobre:

Yes, R156 Dobre was always quite flexible... even though she is a disgrace to our country and team.

[quote]Karolyi after they had been taken away briefly in about '77-'78, neither Nadia or Teodora Ungureanu (the other top Romanian who had medalled in bars and beam in Montreal) returned to Karolyi as their personal coach.

Incorrect. Karolyi was Nadia's personal coach in 1978 through the Moscow Olympics in 1980.

[quote]there was clearly no love lost between her and the Karolyi's but I don't know if she ever was explicit with what her issues with them were.

As mentioned above, Nadia was pissed that the Karolyi's defected and "abandoned her." She was also upset because she felt their defection negatively impacted her own life... and it did. Because the Karolyi's defected, the Government monitored her at all times and she was not allowed to leave the country.

I have to say these gymnasts have some nice perky titties.

[quote]I have to say these gymnasts have some nice perky titties.

They're not as nice as us figure skaters!

#pepperoninips

Lilia? Seriously?

Please. I was the best competitor to come out of the Ukraine!

Lilia's beam work wasn't even half as interesting or difficult as mine...

Will someone marry me for GREEN CARD?? PLEASE??!

I cook and clean your house, and then do balance beam!!

Yes, Luisa, you were fantastic... I mean, you only used the same exact beam routine for 6 years.

What about ME! The only bitch of my era that could do a triple twist properly... AND the only one willing to talk shit about Shannon Miller during her reign of terror!

[quote]The only bitch of my era that could do a triple twist properly.

Not so fast... go sit down and burn yourself with another curling iron. I'm the best triple twister, I'm pretty, look like a woman, AND I'm an Olympic Gold Medalist.

I can karate-chop all those weak-ass Chinese bitches dismounting beam with their sissy double-tucks!

I'm the REAL MISS ASIA, ready to go NANKING on them!!

Trying landing that dismount, Yang Bo!!

Sure Mari, at R168... You definitely are the REAL Miss Asia... Real Miss Asia who never won shit!

Nadia, her asshole coach and the entire country of Romania are still upset at my brilliant floor exercise at the 1980 Olympics because it cost her the Gold AA. Her fall on bars didn't help either.

No, Nadia has stated that the Karolyi's were not her personal coaches after she was taken away from them in '77-'78, they were however the National team coaches so she was still training with them much of the time. The Karolyi's dumped Ungureanu from the National team because she no longer kept them as her personal coach, they could not dump Nadia for the same reason because she was Nadia.

Also, Karolyi had no issue with age falsification of Eberle and other gymnasts, though he makes differing claims in retrospect. Nadia (and the Karolyi's) have given different stories over the years about a lot of things, so it's very difficult to know what's true.

Also, Dianne Durham was shopping a book a few years back which I'm pretty sure didn't have nice things to say about the Karolyi's. Okino has said negative things, but then rescinded them. Add to that the almost unanimous dislike of the Karolyi's by their former Romanian charges (outside Nadia) and sort of Ungureanu (as a coach, she had a gymnast, Sabrina Vega on the 2011 U.S. World team) and I just can't imagine that there wasn't some abuse taking place.

I also have to say R171 that these are GIRLS. Karolyi's remarks were meant to hurt their feelings, to humiliate them, to motivate them. Many times, they were without family or friends in an atmosphere that was cutthroat. Would boys have done better with such a coach? There are certainly examples in other sports, possibly even gymnastics.

I also agree that everything quoted should be with attribution because the source makes all the difference. Or possibly, don't believe anything the Romanians say because lying was a way of living in Romania.

[quote]No, Nadia has stated that the Karolyi's were not her personal coaches after she was taken away from them in '77-'78, they were however the National team coaches so she was still training with them much of the time.

Link? By every account, the Karolyi's were her personal coach. You see her with no other coaches in any competition footage.

[quote]Also, Dianne Durham was shopping a book a few years back which I'm pretty sure didn't have nice things to say about the Karolyi's.

Did you read the book? Did she talk about what was in the book? Because otherwise that's just speculation.

R174, this is a gossip message board...everything is friggin speculation, however, if you read the manuscript of Chelle Stack's mother's book, you know the Karolyi's had 'issues' with Durham.

R173, you would only see Nadia with the Karolyi's at competitions because they were the National team coaches---there is a difference between that and a personal coach. Like I said, the Nadia still worked with the Karolyi's because they were the National team coaches, but they were not her personal coaches.

And R172, you do realize the absurdity of demanding citation while at the same time stating that all Romanians are liars, right?

R175, R172 did not ask for citation.

With regard to Durham, you're the one that said Diane was shopping a book and that you were "pretty sure" she didn't have nice things to say about the Karolyi's. Those two things do not necessarily equal two. Diane has never publicly said anything negative about the Karolyi's, so there's no way to know for sure or even be pretty sure that she has anything negative to say about them. I don't take Chelle's mom's word on what issues were between Durham, because that doesn't come from the source. And Chelle's mom had her own issues with the Karolyi's.

As far as Nadia goes, that's incorrect. If she had personal coaches that were not the Karolyi's, they would have been seen as they would have been allowed on the floor at other events (non-Olympic/World). I'm happy to believe that Nadia had other personal coaches... however, it's not cited anywhere. Do you know their names? I don't seem to see that information anywhere. Where did she talk about this? Link?

And for the record, I would totally believe that Bela could have been abusive, at the very least, verbally. But I still maintain that you have to consider both sides and the sources.

Kathy is just your garden variety American woman. Take away their makeup, breast implants, hair coloring and access to plastic surgery and this is what lurks underneath.

You need to quit complaining; at least she had the good sense to dye her hair once she completely went gray. I see women like this every day on the commuter train.

Shut up, R154. Kui's routine couldn't even beat mine.

Well, Gina.. everyone knows the Romanian squad was trading BJs for medals so....

Don't hate R180. Those bonus points were well earned, believe me.

I'll give Gina a pass since who knew she could be such a delightful, shady, cunt?

Whatever, bitches! Bet you couldn't do a counter-kim on bars, now could ya??

Gina at R183, please sit down you stupid bitch.

Gina, a counter Kim, really?

Bet you can't do a Liu Xuan, oh, that's right, bitch... a one armed giant, one armed giant into Gienger named after ME.

Seriously, Gina... try doing some real bar work. You know, like a Mo salto, named after ME!

That's a fascinating bit of gossip that the Karolyis and Nadia are never seen interacting when they show up to the same gymnastics events. Something that I've noticed myself (at least those times when I've read International Gymnast Magazine) is that Paul Ziert has been pretty viciously negative toward Bela Karolyi (or the Karolyis in general?) in his columns. This could be telling - since he is presumably so close to Bart Conner and Nadia. Ziert used to be friendly with the Karolyis, I believe - when they defected, Ziert helped the Karolyis out when when so many others in the American gymnastics community snubbed them. So it's interesting that Ziert now appears to despise them, and does so so publicly. I think that Ziert may have the goods on how terrible the Karolyis were in Romania - to Nadia and to the other gymnasts.

Paul Ziert also seems to be an opportunist, a schmoozer, and a capitalist - always on the make for opportunities to promote the sport and make money off of it. Someone like him wouldn't burn their bridges with people as important as the Karolyis without some bombshell reason. I've imagined that - while Nadia has been advised to whitewash her experiences with the Karolyis in public - in private, she has been frank to certain confidants (i.e. Bart) about what went down. It's as though Ziert knows something, and not even he can pretend that the Karolyis are halfway decent people.

There have been tales of the Karolyis rudely snubbing some of their former gymnasts at meets - even Dominique Moceanu has alleged that they have ignored her in some rather shocking ways (and this was even before Moceanu started blabbing to the media/public). But you would think that they would want to put on airs for Nadia - their most special "success story".

Speaking of Moceanu - I seem to recall that Ziert had high praise for her poise and "courageousness" in telling her story of abuse.

Dianne Durham was shopping a book? I'm surprised if she couldn't get published. It often seems that almost anyone can get published on some level; maybe not 50,000 books at some top-of-the-line company , but *somewhere*. Her contemporary Kim Hamilton was able to publish her biography a few years back - with nowhere near the accomplishments at the elite gymnastics level as Durham. Who remembered Kim Hamilton except for aging U.C.L.A. fanatics?

I wonder what all Durham had in this book, if no one would touch it? I guess Durham is more threatening to the whole Mary Lou Retton mythology than Kim Hamilton - that is something to consider.

If Durham had anything negative to say about the Karolyis in her book - it would be a stark departure from pretty much everything she has publicly said about them since 1985. Durham has all but kissed their asses in public - she seems virtually as pro-Karolyi-cheerleader as Retton. I think she has even (indirectly) criticized those gymnasts who have spoken out against them.

Another thing: although Dianne Durham has not appeared to have worked for the Karolyis directly, she has been quite involved in the gymnastics world and has relied on the sport to make a living. She owned a gym for a long time, and has worked as a coach and as a judge. I think there is pressure not just from the Karolyi camp - but from the gymnastics community in general to maintain a certain code-of-silence about the negative aspects of life as a gymnast.

The other former gymnasts who don't appear to have had much to lose by criticizing the Karolyis may have just been intimidated, or have just been trying to keep their options open - since so many of them seem to end up making their living from gymnastics. It was odd how Betty Okino almost did a complete about-face after she gave those interviews to Joan Ryan and to a Chicago-area newspaper in which she came across as disillusioned and resentful (toward Karolyi). I think she may have faced (covert) intimidation from people who were unhappy that she made the sport look bad.

If Nadia was upset when the Karoylis defected, that doesn't match the sentiments of the rest of the then-Romanian National Team. IIRC, Ecaterina Szabo has said that they were celebrating ferociously on the plane-ride back to Romania when the Karoylis didn't show up to board, and the plane left without them. (I cannot remember if she said that Nadia was the exception.)

R144: I can think of some Americans who have come pretty close to having Lilia/Bo feet. Jaycie Phelps, for example, had good feet (though she overall wasn't as aesthetically-pleasing as those gymnasts).

Phoebe Mills had good feet. Many other American gymnasts had/have good feet - though their feet may not have been QUITE as freakishly archy and limber as Lilia's or Yang's.

I'm more impressed with a 4'11" gymnast who can do a counter-Kim than a 3'2" gymnast who does one. But I sure do hope that Kim Gwang Suk is still alive. Maybe someone will luck out and discover her Instagram pseudonym.

She looked much older than her age even at the 84 Olympics - she was 24 or 25 (oldest on the team).

She doesn't look great, no, but not THAT bad, not "91". Never change DL when it comes to aging hyperbole.

The thing about Kathy Johnson is that she aged a lot between 1984 and 1994 - but hasn't aged much between 1994 and now. That's right - get all of your aging over with in a hurry.

And I don't think that Kathy looked older than 24/25 at the 1984 Olympics. She could have passed for 18 at those Olympics. I'm surprised that she even looked *that* old - since at that time, she had never gotten her period.

R39, you queens age the worse.

Okay, I have to say, this thread really reminds me of "classic" DL and I'm enjoying the fuck out of it. They fictional back and forth between gymnastics stars is as good as the R&B/Pop divas reading each other on Got 2B Real. Very fun, LMAO.

Yang Bo was incredible.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

I NEED 7 INCHES OR MORE INSIDE ME NOW!!!

I know the names, results, and everything else aren't as well known as with the women, but the exact same thread for male gymnastics stars would be fun. But, again, I could have named a lot of the women gymnasts in this thread off the top of my head. While I could name some men from the past and would most likely recognize a lot of names, I couldn't name the majority of big stars without doing research.

R196, maybe because you dykes look so fucking bad to begin with so aging is preferable.

[quote] Jaycie Phelps, for example, had good feet (though she overall wasn't as aesthetically-pleasing as those gymnasts).

Yes, but she was probably the most aesthetically pleasing gymnast on the entire American squad. Realistically, she was the fourth best gymnast on that 96 Team.

[quote]though their feet may not have been QUITE as freakishly archy and limber as Lilia's or Yang's.

You know why Yang's toe point was so good right? Starting at about age 3 their coaches make them sit in splits and then place heavy stacks of bricks on top of their feet.

R198 please. We all know you're Trans.

[quote] Betty Okino almost did a complete about-face after she gave those interviews to Joan Ryan and to a Chicago-area newspaper in which she came across as disillusioned and resentful (toward Karolyi).

Or you know, we could just believe her when she insists she never said the things Joan Ryan said she did.

[quote]I'm more impressed with a 4'11" gymnast who can do a counter-Kim than a 3'2" gymnast who does one. But I sure do hope that Kim Gwang Suk is still alive. Maybe someone will luck out and discover her Instagram pseudonym.

Listen, bitch. I was 4'4 in Barcelona and when that cunt Gina was doing MY skills she was 4'6. By the time she got to Barcelona she was 4'7 and couldn't do the skill any more. So don't give me this 4'11 bullshit. Even when she could do the skill she could barely complete the transition to low bar anyway, because she sucks, like all Romanians do on bars.

And yes, I'm still alive and happily living in a prison camp in North Korea for failing to bring honor to my country.

[quote]Alexei Nemov, Russian King of twinks

Alexei was never that into dicks... some of his teammates on the other hand.... trust me on this.

Read an interesting interview with Tatiana Lysenko where she wrote about how she attributes her aesthetics to how her coach trained them. Basically, she was training with older girls who were already doing all these skills she hadn't been trained on yet. They got a new coach who looked at those skills and was not happy as he felt their execution was atrocious. They were just learning these big tricks to be able to do big tricks and had no concept of the basics. He made them re-learn everything starting from the basics. Because Tatiana was new and hadn't learned the skills, she got to start from scratch and there for her foundation was solid.

It struck me that this is why today's gymnastics seems so sloppy and displeasing to the eye. The gymnasts only learn big elements to rack up points and don't bother with basics. The elimination of compulsories is probably one of the biggest contributors to this. The fact that they don't have to spend any time having to do compulsories and just focus on doing huge tricks without even thinking about execution is why someone like Biles can be so successful.

Sidenote: Another reason Biles has been successful is because she's been propped up by the USA's enormous domination of the sport and the decline of the former big programs throughout the world. This isn't to diminish the success of Biles, she's obviously a phenomenal athlete, but all of these things have contributed to her being able to win so many titles and be untouchable.

r206

details!!

I really miss the lost elegance and grace gymnastics used to have in the 70s-mid 90s. Compulsories demanded that gymnasts point their toes and straighten their backs and legs.

Now all the top girls look like roided out midgets with terrible form. Yeah they can do crazy skills now, but I'd like to see Biles try and do Yang Bo's beam routine in perfect form and see how well she does. It's a lot easier to do difficult skills when you have the form of a wet noodle. The beauty of gymnasts like Lilia, Mo, Bo, etc...is that they did difficult skills but looked amazingly graceful and beautiful doing them with straight body lines and carriage.

R207, I agree about the elimination of compulsories but it was a sport killer. It had to be done, the same way school figures were eliminated from figure skating. However, if anything, the sport lost itself with the success of the Romanians. No dance, poor foot and ankle form and the athletics usurped everything. But the fall of Communism also killed the machine that drove their concept of gymnastics.

R120 I don't think that it was necessarily a sport killer. I think they could have made some adjustments so that the compulsories still standardized what the gymnasts had to focus on and perhaps made it more like the short program in figure skating.

R211, the sport could not financially sustain another few days of competition. Period. They even had to shorten teams.

You're joking, right R212. You think Gymnastics is hurting for cash?

The sport couldn't sustain another few days of competition? Uh... you do realize that there are still the same number of days of competition, right? In fact they've increased the number. Prelims IS what the compulsories used to be. No extra day required. They've extended Event Finals to take place over multiple days when all events used to be competed in the same one.

Also, just so we're clear... reducing the team size had nothing to do with finances. I don't know where you're getting this info.

The fact is that Olympic sponsors were not interested in compulsories and they were always the weakest selling ticket at any gymnastics event. They were the weakest ratings wise. Prelims involve different routines, not the same one, over and over again. As for reducing team size, sorry, but some teams could no longer afford to field the six gymnastics teams. Fall of communism, you know.

Gymnastics is a ridiculously expensive sport and the fan base as well as participants have been waning as well. If something as relatively inexpensive as womens basketball can lose money hand over fist, you can only image what sort of red gymnastics is in. A recent survey from the NCAA showed that not one single collegiate womens gymnastics program in the US made money last year.

Yeah, R215, however, as mentioned above, the compulsories could have been tweaked, and low selling or not, you can bet compulsories still outsold a majority of other Olympic events. That had nothing to do with the elimination of compulsories. Viewership and sponsors had nothing to do with it. Compulsories were originally eliminated because the FIG felt that it would help boost the sport in countries that didn't normally participate, or didn't do too well in the sport.

Reducing team size was not concerned with teams that couldn't field five (not six) teams. It had to do with again, trying to include countries that had WEAK teams.

This was the same reasoning they eliminated the 3-per rule in the AA which I still find ridiculous.

R217, that was also with the fall of communism, meaning those countries no longer had the funds to have their gymnasts train for those extra hours in order to master the compulsories. Who do you think ran the FIG?

[quote]If something as relatively inexpensive as womens basketball can lose money hand over fist, you can only image what sort of red gymnastics is in. A recent survey from the NCAA showed that not one single collegiate womens gymnastics program in the US made money last year.

Well, let's be frank.. do you think women's basketball has ever had the interest or viewership that gymnastics has had (especially world wide?) And no one has ever been interested in women's collegiate gymnastics.

You mean the fall of communism in countries like Russia and the USSR... which took place over 25 years ago?

*Romania (not Russia)

Womens basketball has had two pro leagues and the attendance at the NCAA levels still dwarfs that of gymnastics. Gymnastics has seen its star rise and fall and the rise is only during the Olympics. During the late 70s and early 80s, it was big year round. More and more schools are cutting gymnastics programs. Here in LA, there is not one single public high school that offers gymnastics as a competitive sport.

And mens gymnastics on the collegiate level has grown so dismal that it appears they have trouble fielding enough teams for a championship. I believe in the Pac, there are only two programs, Cal and Stanford and they can't even compete in that division because there are no other teams. I remembered seeing the National Championships a few years back and the production looked like it was from the old Public Access days. Add to that zero attendance and you have a current portrait of what was huge in the '80s.

R219, and just so we're clear, womens basketball is way bigger worldwide than the U.S. Players have found that they can go overseas and make obscene amounts of money playing in Europe and Asia. The pro leagues there are thriving.

When was the last time a public high school in LA offered gymnastics as a competitive sport? I never heard of one in the 90's.

Venice High won the championships in the late 90s, which was, I believe the last time they competed. Not only was it too expensive, there was no interest. The coach said the other schools didn't even have the equipment anymore.

Interesting R226. If they were the last ones who had it... who the hell did they compete against?

It was like one school, maybe Palisades and that was for the championship.

Kathy Johnson Clarke sorta reminds me of Lady Colin Campbell.

[quote]Alexei was never that into dicks

He's more into carbs these days.

Just to let you bitches know, in 1979 and 1980, I was the crush of every pubescent girl in America. Well, me and Kristy McNichol.

Kindly sit down, Tracee. Everyone knows my voice alone launched a thousand dildos.

And don't forget... I was the winner of the U.S. women's first individual event gold medal in Olympic history.

Not true, Doc Marten, and you know it. Quit trying to make gym lezzies happen!

And did any of these other bitches have such beauty that the Dutch Queen named a rose after them? You know like how in In 1982, the Queen christened the Julianne McNamara rose?

Thought so.

Shut the fuck up, Julianne. You only got that medal because there were no Russians or East Germans there. I beat Nadia, Nelli and Elena M.

Oh shut up R235. You're pissed that the only thing people remember you for is as a stand in for the Nadia TV movie.

I on the other hand got to fuck Scot Baio.

Well haha, Julianne. Todd Zeile also divorced your anorexic ass when he hit it big as a movie producer. And big fucking deal. Scott also fucked Tracee so he must have a thing for girls with no tits or ass.

Whatever, Martha or is it Marcia? Who knows. Nobody considers you anything in the pantheon of American Greats. Meanwhile, I held THREE world title simultaneously, s, including the ALL-Around title. And don't give me this bullshit that I only won on American soil... I beat the rest of those commie bitches in France too.

I'm not even a gymnast, but you can all go EAT A BAG OF RAW FUCK!

[quote]I'm not even a gymnast, but you can all go EAT A BAG OF RAW FUCK!

You mean like you did every time you hit the ice... literally... on your ass?

You also weren't a skater either.

Chris "Corky" Burke speaks better English than the real Gina Gogean, so this is obviously an impostor. Fat fuck Sarah Hughes, most likely.

DISMISSED! Kisses!

[quote]—Sasha "Petite Fucking Flower Without a Single Gold Medal" Cohen

Screw all of you ASHY black-American gymnasts! I'm the coolest ebony queen of gymnastics! A true innovator of the sport!

R206, you can't leave us hanging like that! Especially not about Nemov's teammates who loved dick on a gay gossip board! SPILL!

Thanks for ruining my day, r230

"And mens gymnastics on the collegiate level has grown so dismal that it appears they have trouble fielding enough teams for a championship. I believe in the Pac, there are only two programs, Cal and Stanford and they can't even compete in that division because there are no other teams. I remembered seeing the National Championships a few years back and the production looked like it was from the old Public Access days. Add to that zero attendance and you have a current portrait of what was huge in the '80s. "

I don't think men's COLLEGE gymnastics was ever huge. There were many more teams and athletes participating, as men's gymnastics was one of the major "victims" of, Title IX, but in terms of making money and having huge crowds, that was never really a thing. There IS a consistent viewership for elite gymnastics -- Olympics, Worlds (if they do any marketing), and events like the America's Cup, which for some reason doesn't translate to college. Maybe it's because the college is seen as amateur and the international events are seen as "pro" level.

R246, it was HUGE at UCLA in the '80s. You're correct, it was a victim of Title IX. The crowds were not only large, they were very knowledgeable. Art Shurlock and Makoto Sakamoto had Peter Vidmar, Tim Daggett and Mitch Gaylord on the team and the girls in the crowd shrieked like they were rock stars. Nationally, it was big but obviously took a backseat to womens gymnastics, the same as in the World Arena. Chris Waller is an assistant coach on the womens team and has been trying to bring back the mens team to no avail

There is decent viewership for Worlds and AC but the crowds are never sellouts. They used to be. The ratings for the Olympics are good but it isn't the must-see attraction it once was.

He's all but forgotten now, but I had a huge crush on Charles Lakes, who was the top US contender for the gold in 1988 and the first-ever black Olympic gymnast. Turns out he was a Scientologist.

Poor male gymnasts! :(

Isn't there some gay sultan in Brunei or Saudi Arabian prince who can pay them big $$ to perform and compete for his own viewing pleasure???

Point being that a modestly successful gymnastics venture like mens gymnastics has fallen off the radar and a wildly successful one like womens gymnastics is hardly the picture of robust financial health it once was.

BTW, the US was trying to eliminate the compulsories for years in the 70s and 80s. The FIG voted it down every time, it was thought because it gave them a competitive advantage because their athletes would have more time to devote to more routines. Do you really believe they eliminated them to give other countries a chance? I can just see a family in Peru. Do I feed my family or buy little Maria a new pair of tights.

Gymnastics has fallen off the popular bandwagon because Sally Housecoat and John Sixpack don't understand the f'ing scoring anymore!

They understand perfect 10's because that's what Nadia and Mary Lou scored and won gold medals with! When some ridiculous score like 14.530484 flashes, nobody understands what the fuck that is!

Thought I'd add another gem from the past. Li Li from China. LOVE that backspin on the beam. Geesh, routines were so much more interesting.

R249, that's not far from what's been suggested when it comes to womens basketball overseas. Lots of very wealthy men putting millions of presumably dirty money into a vanity project. The irony is that lots of towns began embracing these teams as they have no other professional sports.

Li Li's routine is amazing!

It's true: routines in all the disciplines are boring and unimaginative now.

Say what you want about Kathy's looks, but she was a damn fine commentator--always fair and objective, and clearly LOVED gymnastics. I always loved it when she would freely express her awe and admiration for a Non-American gymnast.

Elfi Onion-Bagel and Tim Faggot were always so biased and would fawn only over the Americans while underplaying the beautiful gymnastics by non-American gymnasts.

LOGO could make a fortune by televising men's gymnastics-- but only if they were done in the nude.

You bitches could have at least mentioned my exquisite bars...

German giant into Tkatchev.

You bitches are the worst. All this talk about lines and toe point and none of you mention me? Seriously, Jaycie Fucking Phelps gets a mention and I don't?

Unfortunately lost in the Tracee/Julianne/Kathy/Marcia crowd was Amy Koopman. She was the most artistic of the girls of her era but wasn't the greatest athlete.

Agreed with R197 - you bitches are in fine form on this thread. Well done!

[quote]BTW, the US was trying to eliminate the compulsories for years in the 70s and 80s. The FIG voted it down every time, it was thought because it gave them a competitive advantage because their athletes would have more time to devote to more routines

...interesting since USA Gymnastics, despite the FIG eliminating compulsories in 1996 still requires its own gymnasts to compete compulsories until they hit Junior Elite.

"Yang Bo is the queen of beam! The greatest ever, so glad she got some love here. "

And, she has no Olympic or Worlds gold to show for it (though she does have a World Cup Final gold). I don't say this to disparage her, but to point out that this thread is proof there are a ton of incredible gymnasts who didn't achieve the biggest prizes in the sport. No doubt, Bo won many "big" competitions on beam (there are very respected meets other than Olympics and Worlds), but for whatever reason (an off day, a competitor having a career routine, suspect scoring) she didn't get it done at arguably the two biggest meets.

Also, she didn't have as many chances. The Chinese, in particular, really seem to keep the assembly line churning and most Olympic caliber gymnasts only make it one Olympic cycle (a few make two). They really don't have athletes like Khorkina or Gogean who compete in two or three Olympics in addition to 4-7 World Championships over the course of their career.

[quote] The Chinese, in particular, really seem to keep the assembly line churning and most Olympic caliber gymnasts only make it one Olympic cycle (a few make two). They really don't have athletes like Khorkina or Gogean who compete in two or three Olympics in addition to 4-7 World Championships over the course of their career.

Well, back in Bo's time.. it wasn't really common for gymnasts to have a life cycle of more than one Olympics. Look at Svetlana Boguinskaya. She was 15 in Seoul and stuck around for Bareclona and was often mocked and told she was too old to keep competing.

Also, I love Yang Bo... no doubt she was one of the best beam workers in the history of the sport.. but if we're honest, she really had no business being in the Olympic Finals for Beam if you consider her compulsory routine. She was way overscored... two bobbles, one major one, and she still scored a 9.8. It was obvious the judges wanted to give her the opportunity.

While the scoring was inflated for her, it was nowhere near as bad as the unconscionable score they gave Christina Bontas for hers.

Christina Bontas... the bitch could barely stay on and still scored a 9.9!

I guess that's true, R263. I mean, many of the gymnasts spotlighted here didn't last more than one Olympics. That's probably more common than lasting more than one Olympics. But, it does seem like some of the major champions of the sport, the best of the best - Miller, Khorkina, Gogean, to name a few, were around for multiple cycles, not to mention participated in a larger number of Worlds.

As far as the Olympics, it can really be dependent on when someone "breaks out". If an athlete breaks out the year before or year of the Olympics, they have a much better chance of making it to a second Olympics (though it's still tough). That's why Biles is sort of fascinating. She really broke through right AFTER the last Olympics, won three intervening Worlds AA titles and now is expected to easily win Olympic gold after being a star for three years. No matter if she fulfills that promise or (and it wouldn't be that crazy) caves to the pressure, i get the sense that the Olympics is the end of the peak, even though she's only 18. Would she really go through three MORE worlds and go to the 2020 Olympics? I guess she could take a few years off and try to come back. Or, maybe she can just do it like Khorkina.

R266 just to touch on some of the things you've mentioned.

After 1992 it was much easier for gymnasts to go to more Worlds because they changed the format. Until 1991, World Championships were only held every other year. This doesn't count the 1992 Worlds which was only an Apparatus event. Additionally the 1993 event did not include a Team Competition.

Further, gymnasts like Miller, Gogean, Strug, Dawes were able to stick around longer for several reasons. First, the timing for their ages was right. They were all 14/15 at their first Olympics. They were fortunate that they were young enough at their first Olympics to still have a shot at another one in 1996. By the time 1996 rolled around, the sport hadn't evolved that much. None of them were really doing anything more difficult than they did in 1992, mostly because they didn't have to. The code started rewarding a lot of easy front tumbling and other skills.

After 1996, with the elimination of compulsories, you saw a lot more gymnasts sticking around because they didn't have to spend as much time training them. And then, over the years, the equipment has also evolved and doesn't beat their bodies up as much.

Interesting that you mention that Byles is "only 18." Back in 1992, like Boguinskaya, she would have been considered close to ancient and almost past her peak. While Biles is talented, I think her achievements are essentially a product of fortunate circumstances. The world of gymnastics today is one where the field just isn't that deep.

[quote] I guess she could take a few years off and try to come back.

Sure she can!

[quote]I guess she could take a few years off and try to come back. [quote]Sure she can!

I'm the only one that could pull that off, bitches!

I HATE THAT FAT COW WENDY BRUCE!!!

WHOSE cock did she suck to get on that God-damned team, anyway????!!?

Because of her, the world never got to see what delights I had in store for the Barcelona audience!

Lol, R268. I did say "try". But, you're right; it's rarely worked.

[quote]I HATE THAT FAT COW WENDY BRUCE!!!

You really want to go there? Fat? hahahaha. Look in a mirror, Kim Kelly. That is, if you can get more than half your body in front of it.

Why did they choose me for Barcelona? Well, let's see... one, I wasn't fat like you. Two, I looked like a girl. Three, I wasn't fat like you. Four, I didn't look like a lesbian cabbage patch doll.

And I may have sucked a few cocks in my day... but I didn't suck at gymnastics like you.

Does anyone here remember when women's floor (and to a large degree men's floor) went from primarily established tumbling passes ending in a "big" move and maybe one "side" pass to the onslaught of combination tumbling with fewer singular big moves and more smaller, interconnected moves? Anyway, I never really liked it, but that's just my opinion. Yet, there was one gymnast who was maybe the first to go all out with combination tumbling and did a crazy double pass where she interconnected maybe 15 skills all the way across the floor AND back in succession. The only thing I remember was that the first time I saw her do this was at a meet where the floor looked like old hotel carpet, and her music had birds chirping. She embodied the sort of crazy uniqueness that I used to love in gymnastics.

Brian Patrick Clarke is kind of crazy. I remember him holding vigils and giving crazy emotional speeches during the OJ trial.

Nutbag.

Meth probably for the wife.

R273 are you talking about Omelianchik?

Yes, R275, that has to be who I was thinking of. Not the specific meet I was thinking of (based on the color of the floor ex mat), but the music and the double tumbling pass is definitely what I was thinking of. Thanks.

Awww, isn't she cute? She did the back-to-back tumbling first, and her choreography was cute for a little girl, but I did it second and did it with far more interesting, innovative choreography. :-D

Sit down, Silivas, you silly bitch. You may have done it second, but I did it third AND BEST. Also, your choreography, like all Romanian choreography, looked like a retarded, drug, addict did it. And your music sucked. Techno Mozart? Please.

My music and choreography took your breath away as you weren't sure if I was going to tumble or strip.

And back to the back-to-back tumbling... you did two double twists... I did a double twist and ended in a double back... because I'm hardcore and better than you ever were.

Now kindly kiss my black ass.

R276 this might be the one you're talking about.

I believe it was at the Goodwill Games and Bart described the mat as looking like a rug at a Holiday Inn. Kathy said she thought they were supposed to be flowers.

I loved at those very same Goodwill Games in '86, Kathy and Bart were both commentating on both the men and women (women usually don't commentate on the men) and the Soviet gymnast, Valentin Mogilny had just completed a routine and was greeted by his coach with a kiss on the lips, to which Kathy said: "I wish I was that coach!" I've loved Kathy for saying exactly what I was thinking and I don't think I've ever heard a commentator say something like that ever. Mogilny, though, was especially beautiful. He just passed away a couple of months ago at 49.

R261, that's because many in our contingent believe that compulsories create the gymnast, similar to what has been echoed on these boards. Muriel Grossfeld, in particular, has been a strong advocate of compulsories.

I remember that too R281 and I even taped it. Kathy's exact words were "why can't I be the coach." Earlier, Bart said of a female gymnast, "I think I'm in love. She's about half my age." And Kathy came in "So don't even think about it." Can you image Tim and Elfie having that kind of banter?

The aforementioned Mogilny

What happened to Mogilny? Was he sick, or accident? I guess I should Google.

I don't care about any of these bitches. All I know is that I want Danell Leyva inside me, quite deeply.

R286 of all the photos you chose to post.

Tiny meat.

Danell Leyva?

Please... my dick is bigger.

I can't believe you bitches. Yang Bo? Li Li?

Please.

I'm pretty sure neither of them scored the first 10 in Barcelona (and one of the last in History) nor did either of them win a Gold medal, let alone two medals, in Barcelona.

STFU you bag of bones, "Lu" Li!

Everyone knows I AM the REAL "Luo Li." Yes, I was a little porkier, and I was only ever seen once in my entire competitive career, and Monica Phelps confused me for a chunkier version of you, but my bars smoked yours!!

Luo Li give me a break. You only made it to one competition and then went home and got shot for bringing shame to our nation. You don't deserve the Li name.

Girls, girls, can you all stop fighting and just acknowledge that none of you were as cute or amazing as ME?

Mo Huilan, honey, you was UGLY with a capital "U" and that big 'ol black mole on your face! In China, we call that mole, "the 1,000 year curse." All of us wonder if you was ever able to get yo self a man with that mug of yours!

Now I, on the other hand, was a true ravishing beauty! A real porcelain china doll!

Oh, you Chinese bitches don't know shit. If it wasn't for me, you'd all still be working at the Louis Vuitton factory.

Yang Yun... do NOT come for me. You nearly destroyed our Nation's Gymnastics glory. And what are you doing now? Oh, yes, you married your own brother!

I on the other hand am one of our country's most beloved celebrities. So much so, they call me, "China's little Angel."

Shut up, Ma "the moose" Yahong! I was zee best bars champion in the late '70s and early '80s! And you look like a tall, awkward country bumpkin with buck-teeth, too!

Ma can get on her knees and suck my East German cock!

Oh, Maxi Pad.. you are hilarious. When was the last time your CUNTry was even had a real Gymnastics Team?

P.S. Nobody knows who you are.

R297, Maxi, there were so many rumors that you were really Max. You didn't even have the beginnings of titties when you retired.

Great interview with Silivas. Her and Boginskaya are very good friends now. Go figure. But Kathy Johnson was my fav female commentator. She was informed, passionate, spoke even when men were competing with informed insight. Loved her. Now she is relegated to college gymnastics....

I guess I really shouldn't try to look for any love here, right?

Max with her equally unconvincing tranny coach. Dig those badly drawn eyebrows.

The real mystery is why Silivas went from looking like this, a pretty, porcelain doll in 1987, to a butch, baby, Dyke a year later in Seoul.

R303, there are those who feel her changed look hurt her chances for the AA medal but look who won it, so there goes that argument.

What are you trying to say R304. I verrrry pretty. I very feminine.

One has to wonder why they let Shushonova go with the butch haircut too.

Daniela... Elena... why do you bother? We all know I was the real Goddess in Seoul!

And while we all know Elfie and Tim are awful commentators, can we all agree that the Japanese are the WORST? They never shut up.

R276, there's your mat in R307.

Svetlana, maybe they never shut up because they're happy you have worse teeth than they do.

R308 no, this is the one that R276 is looking for:

Elena at R309 my teeths is pretty now so you can shut up because your хуй is still very large and crooked.

Does anyone remember when Amanda Borden fell on the beam and then after she finished, grabbed her vagina in pain... on National Television? ha. It's probably the reason she has no children today!

Svetlana, considering your reputation for giving bad blow jobs and swallowing, it'll be only a matter of time before those are ruined as well.

R313... Elena you so mad because I lock my door and never let you near my пизда́.

BTW, Svetlana, you're lucky you're a famous Commie otherwise you would have been prosecuted for killing your coach, the way you should have been. It's poetic justice that you now look like Martina Navratilova.

Elena after she finished her succesful transition.

Is this where people are posting comments on Jaycie Phelps' feet?

Jaycie's uncle.. would you kindly go away. Spend your time being more productive. Maybe contact Jaycie and her family and help them out... you know since they're still in massive debt from Jaycie's training over TWENTY years ago.

I love how in this piece Svetlana has a picture of Yang Bo up on her wall.

r312 Ummm Amanda has 2 kids. Gurl bye!

R320 doesn't mean they came out of her damaged Vagina, Mary Lee.

Oh Amanda Borden...didn't she have the same bars and floor routine for like 10 seasons?

Fuck you Jacycie at R322. You know I only used Robin Hood for 4 years and then changed it to some awesome Jerry Lee Lewis for 3 years!

I see nothing wrong with using the same bars and floor routine year after year after year....

Oh, how we all wanted to shove that screechy violin music you loved to use up your vag, Shannon.

How DARE you cunts go 323 responses and no mention of ME!!! I am gay man in Russian warrior's body!! I have thighs of power bottom, ass of steel, and eyebrow burnt by too much cum!!

Choke on this like you choke on beam, Kim Zmeskal at R325.

Honey R326, you don't need to tell us you are a man. We all could see your balls come out of your leotard when you squat landed those double front vaults. You weren't fooling anyone.

We all called you the "porcelain princess," Shannon, because you used to play that f'ing screechy violin music whenever you used the tour bus toilet! Well, guess what? It didn't work! We could all still hear you queefing and shitting, and BOY, did it stink like a mothafucka in there afterwards!!!

Shannon, kindly shut your mousy mouth. I know you're pissed because you look like an aborted fetus, but do not come for me. I see that you tried to steal my middle tumbling pass... too bad you suck and could only do it thru to a double twist, unlike me who could power through to a double back.

Let me leave you with this... me doing FOUR Whips thru to a double back.

Now eat my shit.

R327...bitch, don't embarrass yourself. Everyone knows I was the best fake-ballerina gymnast in town. Some cutesy music, along with some half-ass pirouettes and those Eastern block judges were eating out of my Ukrainian ass like it pooped honey butter.

Dominique at R329 please try harder. And don't give us this shit that you could hear anything when your ears were always firmly planted in between Kelli's thighs.

Oh, you didn't think we knew?

R331 we already took care of you. Your routines were shit. Your technical skills were that of a Level 6 and you only won because the judges hated Mo. Now kindly go back to yawnsville with your ass.

Oh yeah? Well at least I wasn't forced to give Steve Nunno his nightly rimjobs! You think we didn't notice those curly, black butt-hairs in your teeth when you ate breakfast ?

Think again!

Ooooh, Bitch...you just got served by R334, Shannon!

Dominique at R334... stop deflecting. Those rimjobs led me to two World Championship titles and a robbed Gold Medal in Barcelona... what did all that fish breath of yours get you? Oh yeah, two falls in two consecutive World Championships. PLUS, as "accomplished" as you were, you could still only get billing as the "second Dominique" to a fucking midget who hadn't won shit.

Gina at R335, kindly shut the fuck up. This conversation is reserved for us with Olympic Gold Medals.

We all know Team Olympic golds don't mean shit, Dom at R337. Isn't that right Amanda Borden?

Of course they mean nothing to you Gina at R338.. since you know.. you have none and youre such a disgrace you and your team lost the team Gold to some awful Americans. You and your squad are a disgrace to Deva.

Omelinachik, Silivas, Dawes.... you bitches want to talk about back to back tumbling? Try doing it out of a double layout.

p.s. I was a breath of fresh air for floor exercise... and I could dance. Unlike you stale, bitches!

Thank you Silvia, but no one, even Bulgs, know who the fuck you are. But thank you for posting that video of yourself. It's like being Miss Congeniality since you never won anything and I mean anything.

^ Yaaas, my good shady sista. All the Bulgarian girls know how to do well is twirl a ribbon on a stick, juggle some bowlin' pins, and catch a little ball with their vajeene.

You bitches only catch a little ball? I can catch a bowling ball.

Gina, go crack your head open. Oh, wait... you already did that, didn't you?

My sista Lilia, you forgot those vulgar Bulgs also know how to twirl a hula hoop around their necks.

R345 is a fraud and NOT ME.

And Lilia, I am not, and will never be your "sister." I have no respect for people who only win because everyone else faltered. And to bring up Rhythmic Gymnasts? A real gymnast would never bring up those God awful, useless things. Real gymnasts were raised to be world class athletes. Rhythmic gymnasts were raised to be prostitutes for politicians, especially in your home country of the Ukraine.

Now kindly refrain from ever speaking to me directly again.

R344...Yep, then I got the fuck up and finished my routine like a boss, with probably a concussion and linear skull fracture no less. Because that's how we Romanian robots roll! We do not deviate from our programming!

R347, wasn't that your explanation for your jacked up face?

Exactly R347 you were able to still compete because cracking your head opened doesn't bother someone that has no brain!

Also, you know that when they called you, "The Face of Romania," it was because you look poor, stupid, and useless, right?

Milo, they called her The Face of Romania because she turned into a big, fat Romanian woman with fat thighs and a mustache like her mother. It's so hard to do gymnastics when you're arguing with storekeepers.

Can we stop with all these European trannies and get back to my wrinkled ass? This is the most press I've had in years.

Kathy, just be grateful you've mentioned half a dozen times. It's better than what some of us other got.

I'll say

I'll say x2.

^ Oh FYUCK OFF, Kyathy Ryigby. At least you got Stay-Free Myexi-Pyed commyershul. I hyed to steal condiment to gyet noticed agyain.

Yes, Olga, and you were printing counterfeit money in your trailer, if memory serves.

For those who couldn't decipher poor Olga's mangled ravings, here's what she was talking about.

Listen to that cunt, Nadia, talk about you Americans. You can hear how much disdain she has for you all, saying that your squad is only, "good."

Once a bitch, always a bitch.

This was the first commercial. They added a brief clip of her competing because Cathy says "you've never heard a celebrity talk about feminine protection" and no one in America had ever heard of her.

Yeah, Cathy at R356... like anyone believed you were getting your period.

Nadia flicked chalk dust in my face after I won the Gold Medal. It's worth it to see how old she's looks today.

I love how the announcer says "champion gym-NAST," like she'd never heard of gymnastics, much less Cathy Rigby.

Will somebody please lend a sister a hand?

There's no toilet paper, I've got the runs and I'm just about to go WWIII on this toilet!!!!

Just thought I'd give you bitches something exquisite to start the morning off with.

My floor routines were the best because... well, violins!

I wonder what her pussy looks like.

Wonder no more, R364.

Hey, girls...wasn't it cute how R363 kept trying it get that pathetic double layout around but couldn't without piking? You got lucky at Nationals, but we all knew that sorry attempt wouldn't save you in Atlanta. By then the only pass you could do was the full-in, a pass bitches were doing in the 70s without spring mats.

You pussies think you did a double layout? I was the first who did it and it was higher and more dynamic than any of you could have dreamed.

Pepsodent, I saw you this weekend on the UCLA/Alabama gymnastics meet. Not only are you physically turning into KJC2, you are a completely shitty commentator, always calling moves wrong and getting your history incorrect. I did wonder if Greg went from fucking Megan to fucking you but he likes his girls underage.

[quote]Love, Dominique D., Simona Amanar, and Gina G. (double layout queens)

You tried it, but no.

[quote]Love, Dominique D., Simona Amanar, and Gina G. (double layout queens)

hahaha. Thanks for the laugh!!!

Try a real double layout...

[quote]Love, Dominique D., Simona Amanar, and Gina G. (double layout queens)

Dominuqe? HAHAHAHA. Oh, please you knock-kneed, bow-legged, pigeon-toed, bitch. Your double layouts were barely any better than Strug's Kermit inspired ones.

R204 I talked about it in one of the other threads about male gymnasts.

Sorry, meant R244, I talked about it on one of the other threads.

Nadia was basically saying in that clip that the Americans were good, but only because of foreign coaches.

Yeah.. she calls the Americans, "good," and the Romanian's "great," despite one country basically dominating the sport for almost two decades and the other barely being able to make themselves a presence.

I could never get into Khorkina. I mean, I admire her excellent bars (of which was the undisputed queen), but the other events? Not so much. Her floor lacked double saltos or difficult tumbling, and her vault was all limbs everywhere. She had her moments on the beam. I do respect that she brought something different to the table in terms of height and long lines, but eh, just not my cup of tea.

[quote]she brought something different to the table in terms of height and long lines, but eh,

Excuse me?

I did it first... and better!

I actually didn't think Khorkina was that great on bars. I think she had her moments, but mostly, was just overrated. She certainly did not deserve to win as many bars titles as she did... especially over Bi Wenjing, Amy Chow, and Mo Huilan.

It got to the point that judges were just handing her titles on bars like she paid them off. She probably did... in titty flashes.

R380, that would have been a .5 deduction.

I was the last gymnast of the modern era to receive a 10.0... and the first to flash my titties for cash!

That photo R382 makes her look like a fat cow. Alas, I never saw the DVD where she did gymnastics nude.

You're welcome, R383!

I don't know whether to thank you R384 or put a hit out on you.

No one forced you to watch R385... but you know you wanted it!!!

In all seriousness though... I actually feel really bad for those Romanians who were sort of forced to have to that. I say forced because they needed the money so badly and the Government wasn't really supporting or offering them anything for giving up their lives for the country's glory. It must have felt pretty degrading for them to have to do that and then to have their country/sport's association disown you for it sucks.

R386, I do agree with you. Although the Romanians were known for having an extremely high sex drive, it does appear as if it became a simple way or survival for many, even Nadia. I don't doubt that she used her vajayjay on that guy who helped her escape.

And I would have really thanked you if it had been the Romanian mens team.

Here, R387... I'll make it up to you. Naked male Romanian Champion

R388, Yay!!!

Shannon Miller was fat, over-the-hill and looked like the Cowardly Lion by 1996. Everybody was over her and Steve Nunno, including the judges who were not giving her the same high scores that they were giving her in 93, 94. I would say by US Nationals 1994, the judges were over her, which is why she took silver in every event to Dawes. Anybody who thought Miller had a legit shot at AA gold in 96 is smoking crack!

Khorkina was the poor man's Boginskaya! She was inventive enough to come up with variations to compensate for her deficiencies brought on by her height and lack of strength, but her dance was atrocious; all the aspects of which the Soviets were renowned: carriage, arms, releve, extension, were entirely non-existant in her gymnastics. You can still see it in some of the contemporary Russians like Komova, Mustafina, and Pavlova (who just retired), but Khorki was severely lacking and I never felt that she could compare to gymnasts like Bogi, Mukhina, Illienko, Omelianchik to name my favorites, who were really just gorgeous to watch and personified the Soviet standard.

[quote] I would say by US Nationals 1994, the judges were over her, which is why she took silver in every event to Dawes.

Really, Dominique?

What major All-Around did you ever win?

Where'd you finish at the 96 Nationals?

And I'm pretty sure I was 8th AA at the Olympics... where were you? Oh yeah, all the way down in 17th. Sorry, boo!

Now kindly eat my shit.

I miss the days when there were multiple gymnasts who could contend for AA titles.

Nowadays, everybody knows Biles is going to win, and there are just a tiny handful fighting for silver. BORING!!!

[quote]all the aspects of which the Soviets were renowned: carriage, arms, releve, extension, were entirely non-existant in her gymnastics.

Boguinskaya was indeed the last of the great Soviet legacy. Then again, that's probably to be expected since she was really the last to train under that system, having gone from 88-92.

Yes Shannon, and you were never going to place any higher than 8th AA with those atrocious, so-called double layouts on floor and off the bars!!! Why you cried so much after stumbling on floor, I'll never know - you were never going to win!! Such drama queen! Always crying and always scared of your loudmouth coach!

At least I medalled in back-to-back Olympic AA's and maintained my place!

Shannon and Dominique DID cry a lot...but at least you knew they had emotions (I'm looking in your direction Kim and Kerri)

Kerri Strug was the biggest [bold][italic] SOURPUSS [/bold][/italic] in all of American gymnastics history!

And that's just her vagina!!

[quote]At least I medalled in back-to-back Olympic AA's and maintained my place!

Yes, you got Bronze... because everyone else fell and the judges hated that Midget Mo. Congratulations! Two bronze medals... and several humiliating, naked, titty shaking videos... all for $300.

[quote]And that's just her vagina!!—Amanda Borden!

You would know! And yes, Amanda.. we ALL know why your teeth were so white.

[quote]Shannon and Dominique DID cry a lot...but at least you knew they had emotions (I'm looking in your direction Kim and Kerri)

Sort of funny that Kim never cried through her entire Barcelona ordeal.

R400 - you know Karolyi was having none of that shit. You know he wanted to smack Shannon every time she threw a crying fit in public, but her creepy coach with the porn-stache was always there to protect her.

haha. I remember when Nunno said this to her.

Nunno was such a douchebag! It's a testament to his talent that he never produced another gymnast near the level of Shannon.

R403, definitely true. I've always said about Miller/Nunno that Miller didn't need Nunno. She was obviously extremely gifted and would have excelled under anyone. Unlike Karolyi, who seemed to be able to churn out Champion after Champion, Nunno only ever had Miller. After Bela retired he got lucky and had all these gymnasts flock to him, but despite how hard he tried to make them little Shannon's, not a single one of them was worth anything.

Yeah, I think Nunno was more a motivational cheerleader for Shannon than an actual technical coach--which is exactly what she needed to excel at the elite level. With her natural talent and work ethic, she would've excelled regardless, but with Nunno she flourished. She always seemed incredibly fragile and shy, and I think Nunno's unbridled energy and unwavering devotion to her lit a fire inside her and kept her positive, focused and in good mental shape.

Shannon would've crumbled under a coach like Karolyi. Although he's probably a better coach than Nunno, his M.O. of verbally and emotionally humiliating his students to get results would've crippled Shannon's self-esteem. I think Strug, Zmeskal, Retton, etc., were tougher and needed that negative reinforcement to keep pushing themselves.

Shannon cried at the drop of a hat. Can you imagine her succeeding under Bela? Hell no.

[quote]Shannon cried at the drop of a hat. Can you imagine her succeeding under Bela? Hell no.

I'm trying to remember if I've ever seen one of Bela's girls cry.

Who knows, maybe he would have successfully made Shannon stop crying like the fetus she looked like.

There were certainly others but I remember Kristie Phillips crying numerous times.

I would swap the ideas R405. I think Karolyi was a brilliant motivational coach. The girls might have hated him but at the end, they did it for him, for his approval. They feared him the way you would fear a father but wanted to please him.

R406 Absolutely he would have...but in turn I don't think Shannon would've been nearly as successful as a gymnast. She probably would've become a basketcase, much less an Olympic champion.

Strangely enough, for all of Bela's reputation as a great coach, all his girls post-Retton ended up chocking at the Olympics and falling way short of their promising talent (Zmeskal and Moceanu, in particular). Food for thought.

[quote]Strangely enough, for all of Bela's reputation as a great coach, all his girls post-Retton ended up chocking at the Olympics and falling way short of their promising talent (Zmeskal and Moceanu, in particular). Food for thought.

Well, in reality, he only had one gymnast after Mary Lou that realistically had a chance at the AA (Kim) and two, counting Kim, who really had any expectations on them, with Dominique being the other (although realistically, DM had no chance in hell at getting an AA medal, even if she hit all four routines).

The problem with Bela's athletes was that he didn't train them to peak properly. He also over-trained them and ignored injuries until they became too big of a problem. Both Kim and Dominique didn't live up to their potentials at the Olympics in large part due to injuries. Both had stress fractures in their legs prior to the Games.

[quote]The girls might have hated him but at the end, they did it for him, for his approval. They feared him the way you would fear a father but wanted to please him.

Agreed. I've seen countless routines of Kim, Betty, Kerri, Dominique, etc. where when they finish and walk off the podium, they don't react. Instead, they look at Bela to get an indication as to whether he's pleased or not. If he is, then they light up.

R409, and let's also not forget that Mary Lou won the AA in a boycotted Olympics. She was undefeated in singles competitions for, I believe, two years but in a team competition, she would not have had the advantage.

R411, I'm also now reminded that Mary Lou went into the weeks before the Olympics with an injury to her leg too. It's a consistent pattern with Bela's athletes.

Oooh Mary Lou! How the mighty have fallen!

No wonder when I mount beam after you, the beam was wet and smelled like sewer!

Eat me, Ecaterina Szabo... from the looks of it, you certainly know how.

Now excuse me while I go and make some cash... I'll let you get back to sharing the bed with your four brothers.

Gymnastics is one of the most physically punishing sports out there. No wonder they tend not to age well.

Bela Karolyi is a beast. He drives his gymnasts mercilessly and starves them. His technique works with some people. It ruins others.

A particularly pitiful gymnastics casualty was Christy Henrich. Not a naturally talented gymnast, she made up for it by "sheer work ethic", according to a coach. A rather obsessive personality to begin with, a judge said she needed to lose weight. She was 4'11 and weighed 95 pounds. Supposedly from that day forward she "literally stopped eating." Even after her gymnastics career ended she could not recover from her anorexia. She died at age 22. She weighed 47 pounds. Hers was an extreme case, but anorexia and bulimia are par for the course for female gymnasts. They are supposed to be as tiny as possible in order to do the difficult, explosive moves now required. Those poor girls. What they have to go through seems like torture.

[quote] They are supposed to be as tiny as possible in order to do the difficult, explosive moves now required.

Have you seen most gymnasts these days, though? Let's just say that fewer are built like pixies, the way they were in 1992.

R409 You really think Dominique Moceanu wouldn't have medalled in the AA if she hit her routines? I totally disagree. Her routines were creative and had a decent amount of difficulty to challenge if she hit.

In fact, she hit 3 of her 4 routines in the team competition, so there is some sense of what she would've scored in the AA with similar execution: 9.812 (bars), 9.850 (beam), 9.837 (floor). If she nailed her vaults as well, she would've easily medalled. Assuming everyone performed the same, 9.577+ would've given her silver that night, and 9.757+ would've clinched the gold for her.

And both her vaults were out of a 10.00, so scoring between 9.7-9.8 was super realistic if she hit the landings.

I think people don't give Moceanu enough credit as a gymnast because of all the media hype and expectations that she failed to live up to. When you're billed and prematurely crowned as the "Next Nadia," you're already working against a massive tide.

But you if you look past the hype, Moceanu was actually very talented and had enormous potential. Her compulsory beam set was executed beautifully, so she had solid basics (unlike Strug, Dawes and Chow who all had horrendous form issues). It's sad she was never fully healthy at the elite level, because by 98 she had grown and matured a lot and had beautiful body lines and stature that she didn't have at 14.

They are still quite a bit smaller than average, R416. I will never forget coming up behind Ashley Postell and Katie Heenan right outside of the Gaylord Arena in Nashville during 2004 Nationals. It took me a few moments to realize who they were - because they were substantially more petite than they appeared on TV. I thought they were junior gymnasts at first. And these were two girls who had some of the more mature bodies on the U.S. National Team.

Who knew gymnasts, and a female at that, interest Datalounge this much, over 400 posts.

R418, it's also heredity. Have you seen basketball players, even female ones. You'd think they had pituitary damage. The most successful gymnasts have the body for the sport and are scouted by the coaches for that.

R415, it's very unfair to bring up Karolyi in regards to Christy. Everyone knows it was Al Fong who was behind that disaster but a closer look suggests that Christy would have been anorexic under any circumstance. Gymnastics became the unfortunate catalyst.

I don't really have an issue with Al Fong with regards to the Henrich situation, I think she was going to wind up with an eating disorder regardless of her coach, she really shouldn't have been taking part in a sport that demands perfection, yet at the same time is judged subjectively like elite gymnastics.

I do take issue with why he kept allowing Julissa Gomez to keep vaulting the Yurchenko vault, when clearly she had no aptitude for it and it had been causing her problems for a couple of years by the time of her accident(team-mates of hers at Karoly's said that it was scary there, too)

R417 nobody said Moceanu wasn't a good gymnast. However, all the hype around her prior to Atlanta was from the US Media. She was never seriously considered a serious contender for a medal. And being labeled, "The New Nadia, " means nothing as it's just a label any one will slap on an athlete that's young and they want to build hype on. Alexandra Marinescu was also labeled, "The New Nadia," that same year... and like Dominique, was not a serious contender.

To take her team scores and say if she hadn't fallen and then compare those scores to the field and say if they competed similarly is faulty on so many levels. One, you're negating the fact that scores in the Team are inflated because you're competing with a team and so scores have to rise. Dominique benefited by going later in the lineups. None of the athletes were going to score as high in the AA as they did in the Team. Second, using your method negates that if you're going to alter DM's score by hypothesizing that she didn't fall on her vaults, you also have to do the same for the other athletes who made mistakes during the Team or didn't get the scores they normally would have. Four, there's no way DM would have scored a 9.8 on vault. The most she would have scored would have been a 9.725 (and that's being generous).

And either way, if you did take DM's scores and inflate them with an additional .6 for vault (again, no way she would score a 9.8. even in the AA she only managed a 9.706), she still would not have won gold. Her total, with the inflated number would be 39.269.

Simona Amanar would have won Gold. Her AA during the team final was 39.387.

At any rate, leading into Atlanta, nobody in the Gymnastics community really considered her a threat for a medal. Despite the medias hype, she was really not in the top 10 in those that were really considered in contention by judges, coaches, etc. When she got to the Olympics she barely had any International experience. The only major competition she had been in prior to was the Worlds in 95. Judges were not going to put her on the podium when the field was that deep. As pointed out above, they wouldn't even put Mo on the podium, even though she was clearly one of the best and had been on the scene for several years.

Moceanu had a promising Worlds debut in '95 where she was 5th AA, and had medalled on beam, had she kept up the momentum she established there and won American Cup, won Nats and won Trials, she would've had a shot. But, she lost her momentum in '96, didn't win Nationals, didn't compete at Trials, plus being injured, she just hadn't placed herself as the top American AAer in '96 and that was the only way she would've had a shot at medalling in Atlanta.

R421, actually, many close observers feel that Karolyi's training allowed Julissa to do the vault. It was when she switched gyms and the workout intensity was lower that she started having serious, serious accidents. Yet, her coach allowed her to continue. It's an interesting footnote. Karolyi's girls did have injuries (as did all gyms) but never something this serious.

I have to say, as much as people complain about Karolyi he was a huge advocate of conditioning and strength (perhaps to a ridiculous degree), but when you look at his gymnasts in the Zmeskal era, they all look like tiny bodybuilders, except for the leggy Okino.

[quote]but when you look at his gymnasts in the Zmeskal era, they all look like tiny bodybuilders, except for the leggy Okino.

Only because Okino had only trained with him for about two years. I'm surprised he actually took her in, frankly.

R426, he didn't initially, she was put on his Hopes team who didn't train with him, but then she beat most (all?) of the girls from his group at an event and he brought her in.

I know R427. I'm just still surprised he took her in to train.

R422 Of course variables will change when applying scores from one aspect of competition to another, but the essential point is still a valid... Moceanu had more than a decent shot at an AA medal if she hit. Her scores from Atlanta reflect that. It was clear that when she did well, the judges were willing to award her. That's evidenced in her compulsory beam score, her 3 hit routines in the team and her floor in event finals (where she scored a 9.825).

Again, when she hit, she had the potential to score in the 9.8s, which would've kept her in the medal mix. So, I disagree that she had no realistic shot at a medal even if she hit 4 for 4. That's just not supported by what we can extrapolate from what actually did occur. Now if everyone hit their routines, then I agree she'd have no chance. Mo would've been champion, but it stands to reason if others had made the exact same mistakes and gotten the same scores, and Moceanu hit 4 for 4...even if you deduct .025 off her team scores (minus vault) to account for team score inflation, she still would've taken silver.

At the same time, you can't use logic to determine scores. It's so often at the whim of the judges. It's also the environment at the time. For example would Mary Lou have gotten that gold in Tokyo?

Moceanu was a media darling but was also resented in certain circles. That alone put her at a disadvantage.

Frankly, you're not making a whole lot of sense R429. You clearly state that if Moceanu hit and the others faltered, she would have a shot at Gold... well, yeah, anyone would. You then go on to state that if everyone else hit, she'd have no chance... which again, drives home the point. Going into the Olympics, you consider that everyone is going to hit and therefore who has a realistic shot... Moceanu was not considered a serious contender and was not going to win Gold.

You say she had the potential to score 9.8s and you point out to the team competition to prove that. Again, you can't use the Team scores because they've been inflated due to scores rising based on a team effort. (Event finals is also a very similar situation). Look at her scores in the AA itself. She didn't score a single 9.8 and didn't have any mistakes in her bars or vault.

You cannot take scores from the team competition for one athlete and chalk them up to scores from other athletes in an AA competition, that makes absolutely no sense.

If you want to take everyone's best scores on each event and the tabulate then that's a different story.

And Mo was not going to win Gold, even if she didn't step out on Floor. Podkopayeva was the pre-determined winner.

Without the step on floor, she would have scored a 9.750 (which was what she scored in the Team competition with a nice, clean program). That would have put her total at 39.149, still behind Lilia's 39.255. They had been low balling Mo all night and increasing Lilia's scores to make sure she won.

The fact that they wouldn't even put Mo on the podium at all is pretty clear they weren't going to let her be the Gold medalist.

Mo was blatantly overscored on balance beam, receiving a 9.8 with a HUGE, HUGE stumbling step on the dismount. I love Mo, and would have loved for her to hit 4 for 4, but c'mon now..

If all of the heavy hitters hit in the AA, I think the medals would have been Lilia, Mo, Dawes and Amanar.

R433 yes, but she was also low-balled on the other events, most notably vault. And there's no way Lilia should have gotten a 9.8 for that Bars set.

I think the AA medals were realistically being fought between:

Lilia, Gogean, Amanar, Mo, Dawes, Khorkina.

I agree about Lilia's overscored bars. But let's say Lilia wasn't overscored on that event. Guess who would have won been the rightful AA champion?

You guessed it!

I agree with R431. Trying to take someone's better/potential scores to compare against scores of others who had mistakes doesn't work.

No, just no, Dead Gina. You were overscored on everything... always. You should have been deducted two full points for making people sit through your boring ass routines.

p.s. Gina at R435 there's no way in hell they would have let you win Gold. Medal, yes.. Gold, no. They don't allow boring, uninteresting, safe, dead, robots wear the crown.

[quote] They don't allow boring, uninteresting, safe, dead, robots wear the crown.

I totally agree with this statement! This is what I have been trying to convince everybody for YEARS now!!!!

[quote]—Carly Patterson.... remember me?

No, Carly, we don't. 400+ messages and the only person to bring you up is... you.

P.S. The only reason you won is because the only people who have it worse than boring, dead, robots are whores. Whores will never be allowed to be Champion.

For as much talent as the USA had in the 2001-04 quad, boy did that Olympic AA end up being a boring wash! Robot Carly, anorexic over-the-hill stork Khorkina, completely unforgettable Zhang Nan!

The AA field in 2004 is literally a list of, "uh... who?"

I meant completely forgettable, not "unforgettable."

I literally cannot remember a thing about Zhang Nan's gymnastics, and to think she was the first undisputed AA medalist for China.... for shame

How can you not remember my beauty and grace????

Ahhh yes, the Chinese lesbian with the boy haircut! How could I forget her!

Zhang had zero charisma. Another Szabo. No wonder she was so easily forgotten

Zhang Nan seemed to pretty damn good tumbler. And, she's one of only a handful of gymnasts who don't rush those double or triple upright spins and fall out of them (why are those always included in a floor routine BTW; I guess it's just tradition like men doing a strength move; or a requirement).

But, she is incredibly dull and boring; can't sell it to save her life. The look on her face is sheer blankness. And that depressing music.

[quote]those double or triple upright spins and fall out of them (why are those always included in a floor routine BTW; I guess it's just tradition like men doing a strength move; or a requirement).

They do them because they're a requirement.

Is the blue eyeshadow a requirement as well?

It should be.

Gymnasts are very short because the training that starts when they're still little girls stunts their growth. It even affects their voices. Some of those girls sound like Munchkins.

Basketball players are very tall because the training that starts when they're little boys stretches their bodies. It even affects their voices. Some of those boys sound like gorillas.

[R431] The original assertion made was that "DM had no chance in hell at getting an AA medal, even if she hit all four routines." Period.

And that's an overreaching statement given what we can extrapolate from the events in Atlanta. Given the scores she did receive for the routines she nailed, it stands to reason Dominique would've gotten similar scores within the same range (give or take a few tenths) had she reproduced them. You keep saying the team scores are inflated, they're inflated...but several gymnasts achieved the exact same score between multiple phases of the competition. Miller scored a 9.862 on beam for team, AA and EF for a similarly executed routine. She also got the exact 9.787 for bars in team and AA for the same executed routine. Podkopayeva scored the exact same 9.887 on floor for the AA and EF (both executed flawlessly). Khorkina got the same 9.850 bars score in the team and EF.

Therefore, this notion that Moceanu's scores would've automatically been reduced for a routine that was executed exactly the same between team vs AA, just doesn't hold water to me. It's perfectly reasonable to assume, for example, that Moceanu would've gotten the same 9.850 beam score (or close to that) for the same routine she did in team competition. Same for bars and floor. She scored lower on bars in the AA not because of inflation (or deflation?), but because she heavily piked her dismount at the end, which should've been in the layout position. That was a huge deduction. That's why she didn't get in the 9.8s.

So, following your logic, all Moceanu's scores in Atlanta where she did well (scoring 9.8 or above) was inflated, regardless of whether in team or EF. Only in the AA was she scored fairly and accurately? That doesn't make sense. She scored very well when she hit, and scored badly when she faltered. She was probably one of the most fairly scored gymnasts at the games.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume her scores in the AA would've aligned closely with her team scores if she managed to hit her routines again in the AA. Maybe not exactly the same scores, but certainly within the 9.8 range, and maybe even exactly the same. It happened for other gymnasts.

Again, if everyone was on their A-game that night, I agree, Moceanu most likely wouldn't have won a AA medal--simply because there were better gymnasts than her.

BUT...that was not the original premise. The original assertion was simply that she didn't have a chance in hell if she went 4 for 4--and that I disagree with. If the field performed and scored what they did that night...and Moceanu instead hit everything...she would've easily medalled.

There were better gymnasts, yes, but they weren't *THAT* much better that a perfect Moceanu couldn't touch them.

Moceanu didn't even originally qualify for the AA final, she was the fourth American and only three qualified. She only competed because of Strug's injury on her vault.

Well, of course she didn't--she fell on both her vaults which, for her, was very uncharacteristic. It was a fluke choke. Had she landed those vaults, and scored even in the 9.650-9.7 range (which was very characteristic of her past performances), she would've qualified 2nd behind Miller and over Dawes and Strug by a mile. Anything higher than a 9.705 and she would've qualified 1st for the Americans in the AA.

Point is she had the goods to challenge for the medals and the judges were willing to reward her when she hit, so all the BS about her having no chance whatsoever (especially if she hit all her routines, including vault) is ridiculous.

Again, DM had no chance in hell of winning an AA medal. You're being obtuse. You clearly state:

[quote]Again, if everyone was on their A-game that night, I agree, Moceanu most likely wouldn't have won a AA medal--simply because there were better gymnasts than her.

To assume thatat least eight other gymnasts would have crashed badly enough (especially where the judges had no choice to not overlook it) is ridiculous.

Yes, if EIGHT more likely medalists happened to crash then sure... you might as well say, if all the top gymnasts faltered, then Lisa Skinner totally had a shot at a medal! Because that's basically the logic you're using.

Moceanu, was never going to medal. But if you want to believe she stood a chance... if everyone competed subpar, that's your right!

And to question why Miller, Podkopayeva, and Khorkina scored well in the Team is sort of a no brainer. They were all going to score well because they had years and years of International experience. DM had one Worlds competition under her belt.

The basic point is that Liu Xuan was totally a medal contender prior to the Vault being fucked up in Sydney!!!!

Dominique was not ever a serious contender for a medal. Trying to say she was is revising history. Was she a good gymnast? Yes. Did she have skills and was she polished? Yes. Did she have the reputation and was she seen Internationally as a possible medalist? No.

The point is that gymnastics is a totally subjectively judged sport. There were several weird AA champions. Remember Bicherova? To your last question, did she have the reputation and was seen internally as a possible medalist in 1981? No. Dominique could have been like Bicherova, although she was a better gymnast. That's what made gymnastics so fun in the past. Even established stars could make a mistake and a newcomer would burst on the scene. Davydova in the 1980 Olympics was a reserve on the team before Mukhina's injury and still got the AA gold and she'd toiled on the International scene for years without success.

[quote]To your last question, did she have the reputation and was seen internally as a possible medalist in 1981? World Championships are not the same as the Olympics.

As said above, believe what you want, but Moceanu did not go into the Olympics as a medal favorite (at least not outside of the US hype). She was not going to get the kind of scores she would have needed to (even if she hit flawlessly). Look at what they did to Mo. You think they would have scored DM fairly and not Mo?

And as someone else said above, had Moceanu maybe won McDonald's Cup, Nationals, and Trials, she may have been considered a more realistic hope for a medal, but as it stood, she wasn't going to get one.

There is a difference in having the technical ability and content to get a medal, and then there's the actual politics of the Games.

Again, nobody said she didn't have the goods to be a medalist.. they were just never going to give her one.

Also, World Championships are not the same as The Olympics. World Championships are quite often when they will allow an upstart to Medal/take the title to boost them up for the next Olympics... ahem, Lilia.

R460, Davydova won the 1980 Olympics and she didn't even make a single world championship team to that date.

And Mary Lou Retton had never competed in a team competition before 1984.

R461... it was in the Soviet Union, the mentality was anyone but Nadia.

As far as Mary Lou.. boycott.. in Los Angeles.. and she at least had International Experience and as mentioned above, won the American Cup, Nationals, and Olympic Trials. If there hadn't been a boycott, she wouldn't have won.

The over-emphasis on "team finals gold" has killed the AA gymnast.

Olympic teams are now composed based off of plugging in event specialists who will maximize scores counting towards team totals.

I miss 1992 when those bitches were all about the individual glory and the AA gold was the pinnacle of all golds.

*more International Experience (ie won an AA Title) than someone like Moceanu.

Yes, by all means. Moceanu totally had a chance for a medal if everyone else that was better faltered and there was a boycott of one of the major powers in the sport!!!!!

R463, that's exactly the point. Anything can happen in a competition. Davydova? There was Kim Shaposhnikova, Fillatova but Davydova had never won anything. I mean anything. Nadia fell on bars otherwise she would have been the champion but watch the entire competition and it was strangely fairly scored.

You can say Mary Lou wouldn't have won and I have my doubts as well, but the she was still undefeated for two years prior to the competition and had beaten ever top female gymnast, including Gnauck and Shushunova.

Look at the events Mary Lou was undefeated at..

And anything can happen... but again, the point? Realistically, Moceanu was never seen as a serious contender for a medal and was not going to win one. You can have your asterisk and say that if all the top contenders faltered, she could have had a chance... fine. But again, same could be said for any of the qualifiers who ranked 8-24.

My favorite thing about early to mid 90's gymnastics was how some of them were so cunty.

As mentioned above, Elena Piskiun gave zero fucks about Miller and called her out for pulling out of the 93 World Vault Finals.

I also loved how, of all the gym/teammates Kerri Strug had, the one she hated most was Shannon. I'll never forget the 94 Team Worlds when Kerri spat out, "We can't all just revolve around Shannon," after Nunno pulled Shannon out of the competition.

Love this thread!! Hilarious! Also love that we will probably need a Part II!

Oh, how could I forget the DELICIOUS feud that Zmeskal and Boguinskaya had going after the 91 Worlds. Some excerpts below:

Whatever it was and whether Zmeskal started it with a similar snub Saturday night, only the principals know. And they were saying little.

'The night before, Kim did not shake my hand,' Boguinskaia said when encountered near the arena, four hours after Sunday's competition.

Zmeskal was reluctant to talk about the incident, which happened in the awards for floor exercise, in which Zmeskal was third and Boguinskaia seventh. It was seen by nearly all 12,790 people in the Hoosier Dome, which immediately echoed with whistles and boos. The crowd booed again as Boguinskaia left the arena.

'I don't know why she did it, and I don't really care,' said Zmeskal, 15, of Houston. 'I don't think this is what we should be talking about. We had a bunch of great gymnastics.'

'She better retire after this,' Karolyi said of Boguinskaia. 'It's a pretty sad, sorry way to retire, but she better do it. She has lost the respect of the athletic community forever.'

Boguinskaia, 18, who came here as defending champion in the all-around and floor exercise, Sunday won her first gold medal (balance beam, 9.962) of the meet. Her comments after finishing second to Zmeskal in Friday's all-around were effectively the first salvo in this escalating Hoosier hysteria.

Boguinskaia said she would have won had the meet been in Europe; Karolyi replied that Boguinskaia's era was over; and Boguinskaia shot back that Zmeskal wasn't a good enough gymnast to end her era.

[quote]Boguinskaia shot back that Zmeskal wasn't a good enough gymnast to end her era.

What a cunt! Love it!

Something else happened during the vault awards ceremony Saturday night, but it went largely unnoticed. The French wire service, Agence France-Presse, reported that Zmeskal had not shaken Boguinskaia's hand.

'I can't remember not doing it,' Zmeskal said.

Yuri Titov, former Soviet gymnastics chief who is now president of the International Gymnastics Federation, said he had received a report of the Zmeskal snub from another federation official.

The beauty of that whole Indy fiasco was that Bogi and Zmeskal were both left in the dust of their two team-mates who had more difficulty in Barcelona (Gutsu and Miller) and wound up finishing 5th and 10th respectively. Then the two of them wound up both training with Karolyi (and Moceanu) during their comeback attempts for Atlanta. They now seem to be quite fond of one another.

Nobody liked Kerri Strug. She whined about Zmeskal leading up to Barcelona when she was training with her and then someone here posted how everyone on the tour hated her (though, I think she did her own tour after Atlanta, IIRC) I used to feel bad for Kerri, but in retrospect at her peak she was a poor man's Zmeskal. I believe she trained with Shannon and Nunno for a bit, I can imagine that ended in tears (especially with Shannon involved).

Well Shannon was an annoying little goody two shoes mouse. I mean, I respect her as a tough competitor and her remarkable achievements, but I didn't find her particularly rootworthy.

R474 what was interesting about Barcelona was that the top three who were considered the most likely medalists were all usurped by the #2 on the squad, Boguinskaya, Zmeskal, Bontas were replaced with Gutsu, Miller, Milosoveci.

As far as Kerri's tour.. she initially tried to go on her own tour as the "star" which further isolated her from the other 6 girls. The tour was a miserable failure and she had to go crawling back and join her teammates on their tour.

And I always felt bad for Zmeskal. It was a shame she couldn't compete her Olympic Trials Floor Routine in Barcelona due to her injury (if she had, I wonder if she would have stayed in bounds in the AA). Rumor has it that she had actually trained the opening (of her trials routine) with a full twist and then three whips into a full-in.

What the USGF did to her at the trials though was really fucked up. That's one thing I agree with Bela on.

[quote]Well Shannon was an annoying little goody two shoes mouse.

Apparently that was all an act!!!

Yeah, but wasn't Shannon's first husband gay? I was never a fan of Shannon's, was a fan of Dawes at the time. Couldn't stand that turd sticking out of the scrunchie hanging out of the back of her head. And the bent wrists in her 'classical' choreography always seemed like an 8 year old girls idea of what a ballerina would do. But I recently saw her interviewed on that skating webcast TSL and she came across very well.

Well her first hubby was obvs gay, so she had to get some dick somewhere! Can't blame a girl for that!!

I hated Shannon during her competitive years as well. It always bugged me that in three Olympic attempts, she never went into any of them "fairly."

[quote]—Kim Z's also gay husband!!!

To be fair, Chris... at least Kim has a dick to please you with.

R468, Mary Lou won the Chunichi Cup, which was a huge deal at the time because no American had ever won it, even Kurt Thomas or Bart Connor. She won the American cup beating Yurchenko who was the current world champion, who also fell from bars.

There will always be falters. Szabo faltered in 84. Nadia in 78 and 80. In 79, she was injured. Davydova fell in 1981. It's the nature of competition.

Yes, and it's very likely that 8 of the top competitors will all falter!!!

"Olympic teams are now composed based off of plugging in event specialists who will maximize scores counting towards team totals. "

I don't know why this was ever allowed to happen. It was much better when everyone on the team had to perform in every event. It was also better when they truly tested team depth by having six gymnasts per country in team finals and count 5 of the 6 scores. They should go back to that. Three gymnasts per event is ridiculous. I'm betting it was done for TV purposes - a more streamlined team final.

Forgot to sign my post at R484

R485 it started after Barcelona with the idea that it allowed gymnasts who were exceptional in an event or two, perhaps world class, but struggled on the other events, to make a World/Olympic Team and have a shot at competing for medals.

If they wanted to do that, then perhaps they should have pulled the Event Finals and made them a separate qualifier and not based off the Team Competition (like most every other sport).

I too think that the six gymnasts/five scores count is preferable. I hate the whole 3/3 thing. It's not as exciting as they wanted to believe it was.. in fact, it's boring as shit.

To be fair, the U.S. is the only team right now that can field a team of 6 strong AAers, China maybe... Russia and especially Romania have benefited from the the drop to 3 up 3 count format in team finals. Russia has some good specialists, but will be relying on their two top AAers from London (Komova and Mustafina, if she can comeback!) as their top 2 (probably only 2) AAers in Rio. Romania has 1 top level AAer.

I also hate how they changed the AA qualifying from 3 to 2 per.

The USA, at least as late as 2000, was still focused on AA gymnasts being able to hit all 4 events. Otherwise they would've spared Atler the nightmare of needing to hit bars, and she could've been a 3-event gymnast. Too bad for her.

It is boring, R487. And, I love your idea about separate qualification for individual events. That's the way it should be. Kayla Maroney, for example, should be (or at least should have been) competing for international vault titles as she was a top gymnast in that event (fall in event finals at the Olympics notwithstanding). But, if she's not one of the top 6 AAs, she could still compete for those titles if there's separate qualification.

I know that few countries can field 6 good all-arounders, but isn't that the point? The team competition SHOULD measure team depth and the strength of the countries' overall programs. If you just have a a couple of stars and one other decent gymnast, then your country can achieve glory in the AA and event finals.

At the VERY least keep the requirement that all gymnasts in the team final perform on every apparatus. At most cut to 5 gymnasts if you want the field to be leveled.

And, 3 AAs per country for AA final is a complete travesty and wholly unfair.

Whoops, meant that only 2 AAs per country is a travesty. R491

So do you guys, like, totally think that Miller and Zmeskal's husbands were butt fucking behind their wives' backs?!?!

Because that would be totally hilarious if they did!!!

They totes had guilty cockbreath and lube-ass when they came home to Kim n Shannon! !!

R494 I love it's Amy Chow--perhaps the most bland and square of all the personalities discussed here--would know that. :-)

[quote]perhaps the most bland and square of all the personalities discussed here

FUCK YOU.

Amy cries. I never did

Everybody knows I was the true wild child partier of the Mag 7 bunch!!

Everyone would know to make it to my room to start off each night with some VODKA ass-shots and a little bit of blow!

I could do a mean keg-stand, too!

For some reason I always thought Amy Chow would come out as a lesbian. She seemed so non-girly and plain back in the day compared to her other teammates. She tried occasionally to look/be feminine, but it always seemed unnatural on her--even now. Whenever I see her in reunion photos, all the girls look very made-up except for her...but not an an understated elegant way, but in a "I just threw this dress on because it's what I'm supposed to do" tomboy kinda way.

Oh well, she married a man, so my gaydar was way off. But even in her wedding photos she looks way too plain...again, like she just randomly picked any wedding dress and threw it on. No sense of elegance or femininity.

R498 I think she comes off that way because she's awkward, period. She also seems to be one of those types that values education over "girly," things. Clothes, hair, makeup, etc. are after thoughts to her.

Despite outward appearances, I bet there's a decent chance she'd be a cool person to talk to - more interesting than she seems. Then, again, she could just be a true bore.

Judging by her gymnastics, Chow was in it for the tricks, anything requiring the slightest semblance of artistry was lost on her and so I'm not surprised that she probably gives zero fucks about what she wears. She's a doctor now, correct? Wasn't she also going for another Olympic team in diving or some sport? She was also an accomplished pianist.

While training for the Olympics Chow was also a competitive diver, competitive pianist, and Honors student. No wonder she didn't give a fuck about makeup or clothes.. she didn't have any time.

I find artistry vs. trickster to be one of the most interesting aspects of gymnastics. Obviously, it is the ultimate thing to be able to do the hardest "tricks" in a way that is elegant and graceful. But, few can pull that off completely. So, there's always this sort of back and forth between the two aspects of the sport. Not only does it differ from gymnast to gymnast, but even from event to event for the same gymnast. You'll see big tricks/high difficulty with horrible artistry and also beautiful artistry (less so these days) with middling difficulty. But often, you'll see high difficulty with" decent" artistry and high artistry with fairly high if not exceptional difficulty, and then the judges have to choose what they value.

Unfortunately, it's becoming geared more towards "moves", because of the fucked up, no limit scoring system which allows gymnasts to overcome mediocre artistry by piling on the difficulty via individual moves and connections without limit. Very robotic. I think the scoring system reflects a fear of bias and fulfills he need for casual fans (the huge portion who watch just the Olympics) to easily understand why one gymnast is scored higher than another (she did 3 twists instead of two, she did three moves in a row rather than two). People who are used to the much more objective nature of most sports seem to appreciate that.

R498 Oy, you were right about the wedding dress. Looks right off the bargain rack from TJ Maxx or something.

But looks aside, she did her thing and accomplished a lot of impressive stuff in her life. She's pretty much the only one of the Mag 7 who doesn't continuously milk her Atlanta experience for income/publicity. Obviously she didn't build her life around gymnastics, thus making it easier to move on from it when she retired.

Funny... Chow went to Stanford and Kerri Strug also ended up there. I believe they were there at the same time. I'd bet they never bothered to see each other the whole time, ha.

Dawes was also supposed to end up at Stanford but didn't end up going.

[quote] Obviously she didn't build her life around gymnastics, thus making it easier to move on from it when she retired.

Even more remarkable was that she was the only one out of the Mag 7 who was really even seriously in shape for the 2000 Olympics. Unlike the others who tried, she didn't have to struggle in the gym to get back in shape. Even without training as hard as she had (or consistently) as she had prior to 96, Chow was still in pretty much the same competitive shape in 2000.

Chow also somehow kept up her difficulty level in 2000 despite not having trained that much prior to the Olympics.

She's general pediatrician with an orthopedic surgeon husband. She did well for herself. What is Shawn Johnson doing these days?

Lol, I love the the life of long threads, where there's smaller debates and discussions within the broader topic. Who would have guessed that there would be a conentrated portion of this thread exuding love/respect or Amy Chow.

I feel like Amy had such bad luck at the 2000 games. She could've medaled again on bars, but had that disastrous mistake on her prelim set that kept her from EF. She also had lots of big tricks to possibly make a splash in the AA or other EFs, but characteristic for her, she kept making silly errors and was hit and miss from routine to routine. No consistency.

She was looking good leading up to the games, and I thought, finally, it might be her time to shine a little individually on the international stage...but by the games, she was all over the place.

r504

She looks pretty, her husband... not so much

I mean, let's be honest... we all should just pretend the 2000 Olympics never happened.

Were Raducaan or Chow part of the vault fuck-up? Khorkina got really screwed because she wasn't offered a second chance at vault until after she completed a horrible bars routine, which has to be the direct result of crashing on her value due to the too-low vaulting table and being distressed.

R510, I had similar hopes for Chow in 2000, I always liked her, gangly as she was, she just seemed like a sweet, hard working kid. I am glad that she did manage to get her small moment of glory with her UB medal in '96 and getting a move named after her. That 2000 USA team was such a mess, though. I guess they were sort of redeemed when they received their retroactive bronze medal, but everyone, save the then unknown Schwikert underachieved.

R505 Yeah, the Mag7 seemed close in the early afterglow of their win, but you can tell they really don't interact much nowadays. I think Shannon and Amanda are still close, mainly because their both evangelical soccer mom fraus now.

Kerri is also a right-wing nut, but she seems like a loner.

r513 Raducan vaulted on the wrong height but did fine... Not sure about Amy

I believe that Chow vaulted on the correct vault.

After that whole fiasco with the vault they really probably should have ended the competition and started over. How the hell can you have a fair competition when half the competitors competed on faulty equipment?

I'm still amazed none of the ladies were injured or killed vaulting that day.

R517 I remember that the solution to that was to allow those who vaulted before it was fixed to go ahead and vault again... which was a crock of shit. Everyone knew the damage had already been done and that those who vaulted and fell had their psyches fucked up for the rest of the competition.

R451 thinks he is funny. He is not. He's just retarded. An unfunny retard.

Actually R451 and R520, you're the retard. You said something totally stupid and it was expanded using your same methodology and you sounded like even more of a moron than your first idiotic post.

If anything, the very harsh diet of a gymnast would contribute to stunted growth.

How many of the 2000 AA ladies fell or were screwed? I only know of Khorkina and Elise Ray.

Around half of the competitors vaulted with the table too low. Many crashed or had vaults worse than normal. All were offered do-over vaults with the proper height table. Some had finished another event by then (many poorly since they were deflated by the poor vaults), some had not.

I'M A MAN, BABY!!!!

Someone STILL hasn't resumed taking their Depakote?

Amy Chow looks better in that wedding photo than I expected her to look - from reading the preceding posts. She's just not trying to impress everyone from Bart Conner to In Style Magazine - which I can definitely respect. Weddings have long since become a competitive sport - and Amy was having none of that.

And isn't her husband quite the happy geek.

I have noticed how poorly Amy was dressed at times. I remember one year she and other honorees were paraded before a U.S. Championships crowd for some reason or another - and she was dressed like she was making a 3:00 a.m. run to a West Virginia Walmart. Very IDGAF.

I am LOLing at the thought of poor 'ol Kathy Johnson googling her name, finding this thread, and then wading through all of the comments!

It's ironic that Chow was so artistically undeveloped and inelegant; of all the Mag 7'ers, she had the advantage of being an advanced classical pianist and had extensive exposure to the rich artistry of classical music. You would have thought that such a musical background would have translated to more artistry, rhythm, and musicality in her gymnastics. Not that she had to be a ballerina - but something significantly more compelling than what we saw from her.

At least one feature showed snippits of Chow playing the piano, and I wasn't that impressed. Her playing seemed wooden and unsophisticated to me; it seemed that she had similar deficits of polish in her piano playing as she had in her gymnastics.

Over 500 replies - and no one has brought up how Kathy Johnson seemed - or seems - to resent Mary Lou Retton - and still seemed a little bitter about Mary Lou's good fortune as of a few years ago? It sounds like she and Julianne McNamara viewed Mary Lou as the Butterball who had a joke of an international record and who "stole" the glory that they were due themselves.

R529 Amy Chow was just way too introverted and awkward. While she may have been an award winning pianist, I don't think that necessarily translates into her having an advantage to translate that into artistry or rhythm. I think she was drawn to the piano the same way she was drawn to gymnastics, diving and medicine... it's the technical aspect of those things that interest her. The rest of it is ignored... like her hair, face, and wardrobe.

R530 do you have any examples of that?

I'll never forget when this happened to Chow. Of all gymnasts that this could happen to.. ha.

Kathy gave an extensive interview to Dave Lease a few years back on his old Aunt Joyce blog, and she didn't seem resentful toward MLR, but more realistic with regards to how she would've actually done had the Soviets competed. KJ was a huge fan of the Soviets, as you can see from the interview OP posted and MLR was nothing like them. I do have to say that KJ was probably the most elegant gymnast the US has ever produced, her shoulders and arms were exquisite and up to and in some cases superior to the Soviets. That said, she had one of the most unfortunate falls ever at the '84 Olympics when she fell out of her triple twist mount on floor and wound up falling off the mat and off the podium. Truth is, she was never close to getting that triple twist around and should have never gotten credit for it.

I don't think McNamara has ever said anything negative about MLR publicly. They seemed friendly at the '84 Games, though it is interesting to note that McNamara actually could have still won her gold medal on UB even if the Soviets had attended, though not with the watered down routine she used that year, but had she kept the much more difficult routine she was doing in '83 she would've had a shot. When I was a kid I always like McNamara more than Retton because I thought she was the 'graceful' one. Watched her again as an adult, turns out she wasn't graceful at all and her shoulders were always up near her chin. I think as a ten year old, graceful = pretty.

[quote] do have to say that KJ was probably the most elegant gymnast the US has ever produced

Bitch, please... you tried it, but stop.

[quote]They seemed friendly at the '84 Games,

Well, they were gym mates... they had to. Even Kerri played fake nice with Kim and Shannon when they were on the floor.

Here's the aforementioned unfortunate FX of KJ

Shannon, please! You always looked like a 7 year old at a Pop Warner Ballet and Jazz Class.

You bitches are so rude. How dare you call me inelegant and say I had a lack of artistry, rhythm and that I was awkward.

Fuck you all. You want to see awkward? At least I wasn't a mess like this cow. That shit was just gross and embarrassing.

I love the image of Amy Chow doing a google search of her name and finding all the love on this thread. Though, I would imagine Amy Chow is probably not the type to google herself. Alicia Sacramone, on the other hand...

ugh. If Alicia Sacramone finds her way here well, let's just remind her that she fucked it up for the US, she sucks, she'll never be consider great and... she's a man.

We all wonder where she kept it tucked.

[quote]How many of the 2000 AA ladies fell or were screwed? I only know of Khorkina and Elise Ray.

Half the gymnasts competed on the wrong vault, which was about 18 of the athletes.

The unfortunate thing about it was that the groups that vaulted on the wrong vault included the top 9 most likely to medal. I believe 2000 was the year they decided to group all the gymnasts by their qualifying ranking and have them all compete in the same rotation (in the past it was a random draw).

Because they did this, the top 9 contenders for the qualifying had to start their competition on the faulty vault because they were grouped together and forced to compete in Olympic order... which starts on vault.

r542

The prelim grouping started the next year, in 00 it was still random. Khorkina started on FX

I think Amanar started on UB in 00

Nevermind, I don't think 2000 was the year they started grouping the athletes, but the top gymnasts from 2000 seemed to either start on vault or floor, which means they were all pretty much knocked out by the faulty horse.

By the way, since we've talked about the changes in scoring, etc. Thoughts on when they switched women's vaulting from best of two, to average of two, to one vault?

Preference?

r546

I prefer the VT rules of the 97-00 quad..so much variety and innovation in that era. I was thinking about how past results would be different with only one vault in the WAG AA, Miller would be Olympic champ not Gutsu

Not only would I like to see the qualifications for Event Finals be held separately from the Team event, I'd like to see the All-Around done the same way. There's no reason the qualifier has to be done through the Team event.

The IOC could easily make the All-Around a different event, much like every other sport, and say each country can qualify 3 athletes (or 3/2 like Figure skating, depending on placements at Worlds). It's up to each country to determine who those athletes are. Countries could then hold Trials to determine which 3 compete or just select from within the team. The All-Around competitors would not necessarily have to compete in the Team Competition.

[quote] ugh. If Alicia Sacramone finds her way here well, let's just remind her that she fucked it up for the US, she sucks, she'll never be consider great and... she's a man.

[quote] We all wonder where she kept it tucked.

[quote] —Nastia

You ugly Russian skank fivehead! You're the most overrated bitch ever, and a true cunt in this sport who [italic] everyone [/italic] hates! To know you is to hate you, and you deserve to date that closeted gay bottom Evan Lysacek! And you may have won the 2008 AA Gold, but almost nobody remembers you except for some psycho bitch on GGMB who is obsessed with you!

Here's mine, where's yours?

And no, I'm not talking about your dick, Alicia. Have you transitioned completely yet?

Hilarious that someone tried to depict Chow as the partier of the Mag 7. I'm the one that toured with them (posted about Alexei up top).

Chow was as you can imagine, always extremely reserved and shy. Unlike the others she also wasn't weirdly religious. She kept to herself most of the time and when on the road mostly had her head in a book. She was also different because she didn't really do seem to do gymnastics for the fame or the glory. It really seemed like she was just doing it because she liked to do tricks. Her parents also didn't seem pushy at all when it came to her being in the sport. She and her family also didn't come off like they were trying to make a ton of money off the Team Success. She basically did the tour because the other girls needed her to join them and the money wasn't bad to throw into her savings.

If you wanted to have a conversation with her you really had to put in a lot of effort to make her say more than a few words, but once you could, she could talk about a variety of subjects. She was much preferred to be a listener than a talker though.

R551, more about Alexei and his teammates who liked dick please!!

Actually, R521 you're the retard. You said something totally stupid and you sounded like even more or a moron than your first idiotic post. You are indeed moronic, stupid, idiotic....a retard.

R553, ooh, two days to come up with that. Congrats. The nurse just came in with your Namenda. BTW, that wasn't my first post on this thread but it was yours, so nice try.

BTW, R553 is the genius who came up with the brilliant post at R451 that gymnasts have stunted growth because of intense physical activity early in life. Of course, it doesn't do that to kids in any other sports but she's clearly upset that someone parodied her stupidity.

The poor retard at R554 and R555 is very upset. Oh well, that's his problem.

I don't think this information from a sports injury publication will be helpful to the retard at R554/555 (he's a retard, so he can't comprehend very well at ALL) but others might find it interesting:

Female gymnasts tend to be short, they begin to menstruate later than usual, and their skeletons are rather non-robust. What is responsible for all of this?

Some sports-medicine experts believe that specific – but not well-identified – characteristics of gymnastics training do indeed hinder growth. For example, researchers from Deakin University in Australia and Western Washington University in the United States who analysed 35 clinical reports (cross-sectional, historical, and prospective cohort studies) found that élite-level gymnasts may indeed be at increased risk of adverse effects on growth. This group found that adolescent-female-gymnasts’ skeletal systems matured at decreased rates during periods of regular gymnastics training, but then began to catch up during periods of reduced training or else retirement, suggesting that something about gymnastics training was affecting growth and maturation. The Deakin-Washington researchers found that the greater the number of years of gymnastic training, the greater the reduction in growth; they also found that gymnasts tended to have more problems with their spinal growth, compared with elongation of the bones in the arms and legs.

There is evidence to show that some gymnasts grow at slow rates during training and engage in “catch-up” growth once gymnastics training ceases, suggesting that gymnastics can temporarily stunt growth. We believe that in many cases the cause of such slowdowns may be related to poor diet, however, rather than the rigours of gymnastics training per se.

Can you two bitches take your bitchfight elsewhere? Don't ruin a great gymnastics gossip thread!

Anyone care to discuss the ugliest Leotards you've ever seen?

I'd like to throw these in the mix... the one Nunno made all his girls wear when he tried to make them all mini-Shannons.

Oh and of course this one for the ugly leo pile.

R556, no attribution either. Thanks for winning. You posted the single most boring post in this thread. Back to your bath, cupcake.

One of the ugliest was this one worn by the Romanians at the 2000 games.

BTW, the most successful gymnasts are self selected. Those with naturally lighter and smaller bodies are the ones predisposed to the most success. Those without pretty much drop out. Studies have shown that nutrition is the largest factor in inhibiting growth in all kids.

Get it R556, or retard with only one thing to say in this entire thread?

And to put a period to this argument, R556 went to Google to try to find evidence and posted it unattributed without reading the entire piece. To bore everyone some more, here is the Conclusion, which retard R556 didn't bother to read:

So what’s the bottom line? Gymnasts are shorter than “normal” individuals and other athletes, but much of the height difference is caused by genes, not the gym. The only real mechanism which has been proposed to account for a gymnastics-related slowing of growth rate has been bony growth-plate damage in response to the stresses and high impacts of gymnastics training. There is some evidence to support this mechanism, but it is confined to the radius of the arm and thus does not apply to the leg-length and sitting-height differences which have been observed in gymnasts. There is simply no convincing evidence to suggest that gymnastics training forces gymnasts’ growth plates to close down prematurely. There is, however, evidence to show that some gymnasts grow at slow rates during training and engage in “catch-up” growth once gymnastics training ceases, suggesting that gymnastics can temporarily stunt growth. We believe that in many cases the cause of such slowdowns may be related to poor diet, however, rather than the rigours of gymnastics training per se.

R531, I guess you're right. Though at a certain point in the classical piano world, you have to become more than a human metronome. She was "award-winning" at piano? She must have won those awards when she was, like 10 - when kids may rely on some precocious knack for technique, and not much is expected in the way of artistic nuance.

I do have admiration for her high achievements across several different disciplines, though. It's just that it's remarkable how childishly computer-like she was as she was excelling at these things. I wonder if she's slightly Aspie?

I wonder if she's become more assertive as she advanced through her schooling, and as a pediatrician? Medical school can be rather cut-throat - in some ways, I'm curious about how shy, reticent Amy managed that.

R532 - what R534 said. When I made that comment about Kathy Johnson's attitude toward MLR - I was primarily relying on what I remember reading from the Dave Lease interview. Reading snippets of it now, I see that Johnson was a little more diplomatic than what my initial impressions of her comments were. But I'm sure that the years (and Johnson's consciousness of her public image) have resulted in her being careful about expressing her views on MLR - I mean, she can't be like Abomb and the crew.

Read it for yourself (I don't think this is the entirety of what was originally published). There is enough there to give one the idea that she doesn't exactly worship at the altar of MLR's Olympic gold. And I think she (and others) must have struggled with some jealousy.

I don't think the jealousy/resentment of MLR was only limited to the U.S. women's team. The media's and corporate America's obsession with MLR also negatively affected members of the 1984 U.S. Men's Olympic gymnastics team (who won team gold), and other athletes who did well in Los Angeles. I have definitely sensed some palatable resentment of MLR from certain "peers". And did you see the renowned HBO documentary on Greg Louganis that aired last fall? In it, Greg made some comments about how much trouble he had translating his Olympic success into endorsements/financial success; besides the "gay thing", he specifically mentioned how Mary Lou and her perkiness hogged all of the endorsement opportunities (though he said it in a MUCH nicer way).

Damn R551 - you put in enough leads for a show on Investigation Discovery.

Who are all of the religious nuts of the Mag 7 - or of the tour in general?

I'd like for you to put names to all of your sly references (though one of them is quite easy to figure out) - and include me with the crowd who wants you to kindly spill on the gay sex.

So every single Mag 7'er was either a religious nut, an obnoxious glory hound, or had obnoxious glory-hound parents. Except for angelic Amy Chow and her angelic family. Ha!

Oh, you just know that Amy Chow's parents were closet helicopter parents. They were simply modest enough to keep that ranting Tiger Mom stuff behind closed doors.

Besides the Mary Lou Retton-related comments, what Kathy Johnson-Clarke had to say about Dianne Durham's misfortune was interesting. She gave somewhat of an insider's view of the miscalculations that contributed to Dianne being disqualified. Boy does Bela Karolyi (not surprisingly) come off as arrogant and smug during that fiasco - and his narcissism cost his athlete big time.

Kathy gives quite a different narrative than what Karolyi (IIRC) claimed in his biography. Karolyi made some defaming claims about how Peters sat back and let Karolyi and Dianne mistakenly think that they could petition onto the Olympic team - knowing all along that Dianne would be disqualified and his own athlete (Kathy) benefiting from the disqualification. From what Kathy says, Peters acted more selflessly than that - but, who knows? Kathy's version could be biased toward the coach who kicked her troubled butt in gear and helped her get her act together in time for 1984. Of course, she gave this interview years before Peters' dirty laundry was aired.

Don Peters was indeed manipulative... I mean, he was a pedophile and rapist so.... I'm likely to believe Karolyi over Peters.

Further, Kathy was the one that benefited from Durham not qualifying so she might be siding with Peters on that one because it justified her placement on the team.

[quote]Oh, you just know that Amy Chow's parents were closet helicopter parents. They were simply modest enough to keep that ranting Tiger Mom stuff behind closed doors.

Are you asserting that because... she's Asian? That's nice of you. I mean, you think that about her but you don't think that about the other girls that were on the team?

From what I could tell, Amy's parents were not "Helicopter Parents." They actually seemed to be the ones that were the least involved while she was on the tour. She was the only one who didn't have her family traveling with her.

And I didn't say she was Angelic.. she was just innocuous and didn't get into it like the rest of them did.

Another one of Karolyi's star pupils in the 1980's was Dianne Durham. She was Bela's frist elite gymnast in the United States and (like Kristie) a two time Junior National Champion. She was the training partner and close rival of Mary Lou Retton. In fact she beat Mary Lou for the All Around title at the 1983 National Championships, as well as placing 1st at the Pre-Olympic Games meet. (Mary Lou got 2nd) Dianne's chances of making the Olympic Team looked great until an unexpected vistor came into the gym one day. "A man named Scott Crouse flew into Houston. He met with Diane and her parents, and persuaded Diane to leave my gym" Bela recalls "Scott was a former technical director for the U.S Gymnastics Federation. He is a man who considers himself the greatest technical gymnastics specialist in the country. He told the Durham's that I was favoring Mary Lou; he told them that since Mary Lou was white and that Dianne was black we favored her. He said we didn't have any experience with black people and that for Dianne the best way to get the exposure and training she needed was to move to his gym." Karoyi said "I was upset that the Durhams didn't discuss this with me. They just left."

It didn't last for long however and Dianne was back in time to compete at the Olympic Trials. After compulsories, Dianne was in 3rd place. During the 2nd day of competition, Dianne had a bad landing on her first vault; her arm slipped off the horse and she landed short. While it wasn't a failed vault, she only received a 9.45. She had sprained her ankle and Bela instructed her not to do her 2nd vault, her first score was good enough to maintain a high enough position. Her last event would be the bars, so it wouldn't be too much pressure on her ankle. While Bela was helping Mary Lou get ready for her next event, assistant president Cherly Grace told Dianne that she didn't need to compete bars, she told her she could petition on to the team and that she shouldn't make her injury any worse, but Bela didn't like the sound of that. He told Dianne to compete anyways. "I watched Dianne chalk up. It was almost time for her to begin her bar routine. I ran over to spot Mary Lou and when I ran back to the bars, Dianne was not on the podium. 'Marta' I yelled, 'did Dianne already perform?' Marta pointed to the bench where Dianne was sitting. 'Dianne, didn't I tell you to get ready for bars?' Bela asked 'Yes, but I'm skipping the event because of my ankle. They told me to skip this event. It will be okay!' Dianne replied. I stormed over to the jury and demanded that Dianne be given the chance to compete bars. They told me that her chance was over because she had already scratched." Bela recalls.

Dianne ended up placing 9th and 15 minutes after the competition was over,the team was announced. Dianne was not on the team. "The rules stated that no athlete could qualify for the Olympic Team without finishing the competition. Since Dianne had scratched herself from bars, she was automatically eliminated from the team. Don Peters had watched Dianne scratch herself knowing that by doing so she would be eliminated. He just let it happen, quiet like a fish. And with the emlinination of Dianne, a space was opened for one of his gymnasts. It was a heartbreaking moment. In my life I have never been so hurt or frustrated. I blame the U.S.O.C and myself. I do not think Cheryl Grace acted viciously. Her intention was not to eliminate Dianne. She acted according to some rule of decency, for Dianne's welfare." said Bela. When the 1984 Olympic Team left for the Games. Dianne Durham ended her gymnastics career.

Doesn't sound like Karolyi, at least in that interview is directly blaming Peters, rather he's saying Peters just sat by and watched it happen happily. Who knows though, Peters might not have known the rules.

Either way, one has to wonder if Karolyi were in that situation, would he speak up for an athlete challenging one of his own for a spot? Somehow I doubt it.

According to the very weird rules that year, four girls automatically got their spot: Mary Lou, Julianne, Pam Bileck and I believe Michelle Dusserre. The other two spots were to be decided in training camp. The others who made the team of six were Lucy Wener and Tracee Talavera. Kathy and Kelly Garrison and Marie Roethlesberger were the alternates. Lucy was injured and she was not given clearance by her doctors to compete, so she was out. The final two slots went to Talavera and Johnson with Marie being the on-site reserve. If Dianne had been selected to the team, it's likely she would have bumped Talavera, not Johnson as Tracee had been on a downwards trajectory after a pretty substantial growth spurt. Peters had four girls on this roster, Bileck, Dusserre, Johnson and Wener. Julianne also trained with SCATS for years before heading to Karolyi for a couple of months, so he could probably lay claim to her as well. As it stood, there would be no one to fight for Tracee, who was with an unknown Bay Area gym and she was considered the most likely gymnasts out. Karolyi even stated that he wanted to start Kathy on every event to set the table for the other gymnasts because of her experience.

Chow was not only a competitive Diver while competing in Gymnastics, she also competed in Pole Vaulting.

McNamara did not train with Peters for years, she trained with him possibly a year, she trained with Dick Mulvihill until at least 1982 and started training with Karolyi in early 1984.

Bela's account of what transpired with Dianne Durham almost sounds too good to be true. Especially, all those years later. Chelle Stack's mother claimed in her book that the Karolyi's made quite a few racially charged comments when referring to Diannne, when Chelle first came to train with the Karolyi's in '82-83 (Chelle subsequently left and the returned in 1987). Also, it's interesting that Karolyi refers to the 1984 Olympic Trials as the end of Dianne's career. I guess he forgot that she competed in 1985 at the American Classic for a different gym. But were he to mention that, perhaps too many questions would arise about why Dianne saw fit to leave his gym after Trials in 1984 and train somewhere else, if he was not the one responsible for her scratching. Also, had Dianne and Mary Lou competed at the 1983 Worlds instead of Karolyi withholding them from competing (he claimed they were injured, but they were both fit to compete, Karolyi just didn't want them to have to compete behind the Iron Curtain, a strategy that worked brilliantly for MLR) as they were supposed to, Dianne would have been able to scratch from Trials as only members of the previous years World team could scratch and still be allowed to petition on to the team.

Again, not trusting anything that comes from Chelle Stack's mother... who has her own beef with Karolyi. Dianne has yet to ever say anything about it herself, so until that happens...

I'm contributing this to the damn ugly leotard pile.

Another reason that NBC didn't use Kathy was because NBC loves to manufacture the drama of an event in their editing whereas ABC let the drama occur as it unfolded and Kathy called NBC out for that numerous times in the press

NBC didn't use Kathy because she already looked old as shit.

Who is NBC using this year? Nastia?

R582, yes, she got the gig again. If we could only get rid of Tim......

And NBC coverage has always been shit. It's all about 20 minute Fluff pieces and 5 minutes of actual competition and in all events, they only bother to show the Americans.

ABCs Olympic (and sporting coverage in general) was always much better.

R584, because that's what marketing has told them is most appealing to female viewers. If we're talking American female viewers, they want the backstory, the sobstory and the feel good victory of the Americans. American Idol ring a bell?

And there was plenty of unhappiness of ABC's coverage of the 84 Olympics. Blubbery, jingoistic, were things I remembered hearing. I'm not disagreeing that ABC's coverage was better but since this is for a mass market, they have to make their product more appealing to a wide audience.

At least in ABCs coverage... you actually get coverage of other teams that aren't from the US.

R586, that was 30 years ago. ABC hasn't telecast the Olympics since the 88 Winter games. Times have changed. Do you think American audiences are more or less receptive to teams outside the US getting coverage?

R587 did you miss the part about (and sporting coverage in general)?

R588, did you miss the part about "Are American audiences more or less receptive to teams outside the US getting coverage?" It applies to sporting coverage in general as well. If people are not interesting in seeing US womens basketball in the WNBA, (a complete ratings flop despite a gigantic media push at the end of the last century) why do you think they'd want to watch Ukranian rowing. Different times all around. ESPN and the proliferation of sports channels made something like Wide World of Sports obsolete and by necessity, they had to become much more narrow in their focus.

UGH, why did they choose Nastia? She is NOT a good commentator. Borden would have been much better. Or even Shannon Miller!

R589 I agree with R586. ABC sports coverage was always better than NBC and yes, they do cover other countries much better than NBC. Just looking at Gymnastics alone, compare NBC coverage to events starting in about 93 - 2000 and they were already only covering US gymnasts with maybe a handful of gymnasts from other countries and packing coverage with sob stories every 5 minutes. Compare that to ABC's coverage of Worlds, etc. at the same time, they were not only covering more athletes outside of the US, they didn't have as many fluff pieces.

Agreed R591. It's a shame they got rid of Wide World of Sports. They used to even cover the European Gymnastics Championships.

I actually didn't mind [italic] some [/italic] of the fluff pieces, especially some of the ones that featured international gymnasts. It humanized the gymnasts, and you got to see a small glimpse of their life story.

R593 I didn't mind the fluff pieces either.. but they started making the 5 minutes long and airing them every 10 minutes so that you basically only got a tiny fraction of the coverage of the actual event.

Also, a certain point all the pieces started sounding the same... poor, desolate, waif who was given over to the country by her parents to bring honor and glory to their Nation!

Oh, and all their fathers left and abandoned them.

New thread to continue these fascinating discussions.

How dare you, R595! This was MY chance to get my 15 minutes of fame on DL.. and you ruined it by replacing my name with HERS?!

KJC, just like America, this thread was over your ass within the first 3 minutes.

Meth

bump