Frank Sinatra - Evil Fuck?

He was mean to Lana Turner, the heel!

He was pro-gay. So, of course, DL will bash him.

He threatened to kill poor Kitty Kelley.

Frank Sinatra had a big, beautiful, uncircumcised dick. All the Hollywood dames loved Frank.

Highly exaggerated. He got mixed up in the mafia, but so did everybody else in the business. For some reason, he's the one who takes flak for it.

Pro-gay?! He was one of the biggest homophobes on the planet.

Bit off the heads of kittens, just to watch them twitch and die.

killed his lovers and ordered hits on lots of guys.

b

Not pro-gay.

Reportedly hung out with Monty Cliff during the filming of FROM HERE TO ETERNITY, until he found out that he was gay. After that, he never spoke to him during and after filming.

Wasn't he friends with Capote, though? How did he spend a year dating Gloria Vanderbilt if he was a homophobe? She was the biggest hag in Manhattan. Still is.

Was he abusive towards Mia Farrow?

Mia Farrow has never had one bad thing to say about him.

Yes, the make up artists had to cover her bruises when she was shooting Rosemary's baby. When she became pregnant to him, he took her away on his boat and made her have an abortion. Another rumour was that he had one of his goons drive a guy off the freeway and the guy was killed in the accident. It seems the victim's wife turned Sinatra down. It is in Kelly's book, I think.

I really love his voice, so I might be better off not knowing some of this.

He was ruthless.

'Mia had a big white cat named Malcolm that she adored. She always talked in sign language to the cat, who was deaf. Mia's obsession with Malcolm was bad enough, but the sign language really got on Frank's nerves. He didn't mind cats in general, but he came to despise Malcolm in particular. One day Mia was out by the pool, reading one of her Maharishi books and doing signs with Malcolm. Frank came out, didn't speak to her. He took out a cherry bomb, quietly lit it, and placed it next to the cat's food bowl. Kaboom! The poor thing ran off like a cat out of hell. Frank, who was obsessed with stupid practical jokes, and particularly ones with Three Stooges-type explosives, burst out laughing and couldn't stop. I honestly hadn't seen him so happy since he married Mia. "Deaf?" was all he said. Mia started bawling. "How can anybody be so cruel?" she cried. It got a lot worse when Malcolm never came back. He must have run all the way to Mulholland and gotten lost, maybe even eaten by the coyotes. Mia tried to find him, but couldn't.'

From 'Mr S - My Life with Frank Sinatra' by George Jacobs and William Stadiem.

His treatment of Marilyn Monroe seems problematic - was he really friends with her or just using her? Seems though he helped Judy Garland out a lot ...

I never read or heard that Frank abused Mia Farrow. I do remember reading that when it came out that Woody Allen was banging Mia's daughter, Sinatra called and asked her if she wanted him to have Woody's legs broken. I read Kitty Kelly's book and that story wasn't in it. I believe that Frank was full of macho bluster, but he didn't often act on it. He fell apart when he broke up with Ava Gardner.

"Frank Sinatra had a big, beautiful, uncircumcised dick." I've heard he was uncut yes, but how was this confirmed?

Also, Lauren Bacall has NOTHING nice to say about the man. She use to date him after Humphrey Bogart died (he and Frank started that whole RAT PACK clique) and he even asked her to marry him. Immediately after she accepted, she was asked in an interview about her relationship with Frank. She happily told the columnist (Hedda Hopper, perhaps?) and it made the front pages. Frank dumped her.

Also, there's the infamous story of his finding out that President Kennedy was coming to California and would be staying at Bing Crosby's house instead of his. Frank was livid when Peter Lawford told him that the decision was made for security reasons. Frank, who had some renovations done to his house for that occasion, threw Peter Lawford out of his house and never spoke to him again.

"I never read or heard that Frank abused Mia Farrow. I do remember reading that when it came out that Woody Allen was banging Mia's daughter, Sinatra called and asked her if she wanted him to have Woody's legs broken."

Well that's a REAL good sign Sinatra wasn't violent!

I've heard that Frank Sinatra's daughters, Nancy and Tina, have remained friendly with Mia Farrow to this day.

Frank and Peter made up several times for money reasons I read.

He was an asshole. It's believed now that he was manic-depressive, and got no treatment for it, which could account for his frequently thuggish and nasty behavior.

Bono really sucked up to him. I guess he idolized him or something. But then Bono rubs up against a lot of awful people. His other pals included George Bush and Jesse Helms.

Sinatra was fucking Bacall while Bogart was dying--everyone knew about the affair but no one was cruel enough to let Bogart know. Once Bacall was available, he wasn't so interested.

(This info is from "Niv", the biography of David Niven. Great gossip book.)

Rumored to have knocked up Elizabeth (don't call me Liz!) Taylor and then paid for the abortion. Once he fucked a girl with his huge, uncut cock, he didn't want anything more to do with her. He would have his valet or some employee tell them to get out. Treated some of his women really well when they were in trouble though. He took care of all of Ava's medical bills when she got sick and did the same for eternal starlet Joi Lansing, who had been one of the girls he stayed friendly with after fucking them. Joe DiMaggio wound up hating him for the way he used and abused Marilyn Monroe, just like he hated the Kennedy brothers.

He raped Shirley Temple with one of those big/multi-colored novelty lollipops.

He hated Barbara Walters and Liz Smith. He called Liz Smith "Lez Smith." He used to say, "most girls want to make it with Burt Reynolds but old Lez wants to make it with Debbie Reynolds."

He was very abusive to the staff in the casinos in Las Vegas. He seemed to mellow out after he married Barbara Marx, to some extent.

His valet, George Jacobs (I think that was his name), wrote a book about him a few years ago that details his behavior.

My brother was a member of the board of directors for a chapter of Easter Seals. Frank Sinatra would give a huge donation every year but wanted no publicity. His name was never listed as one of the donors.

Ava Gardner was the only woman Frank really loved. He treated all the others like crap (and worse) but he always took care of Ava.

It's the assistant who talks in MR. S. about the cock so big he wore a truss to hold it down so you couldn't see it on camera...

That Peggy Lee was the slag at the end of the street on nights when Sinatra couldn't find any other girl to take it...

That he never wore condoms, and good girls don't get in trouble, and he never had any STD for all his fucking around.

From the Times article:

[quote]Nancy Venturi, barely into her teens, was one of those who fell. “He had sex on the brain,”

What? He was a pedophile?

Sinatra was not a homophobe. He adored Cole Porter. Sondheim has credited Sinatra with making "Send in the Clowns" a hit and hardly deemed him loathsome. He gave to AIDS charities -- notably AmFar -- in the late 80s at the worst of the crisis. Some homophobe.

I heard he had to have his underwear specially made because he was so fucking hung.

Perhaps you heard that at R32, R35.

He left River City, the library building, but he left all the books to her!

It sounds like he was more likely to treat you like a person if you were a singer or a songwriter or a musician.

bump

Many believe Kennedy would not been elected, had it not been for Frank getting the Mobsters to have their unions vote for him. Sinatra did it as a favor to Joe Kennedy, who couldn't risk any Mob connections. Sinatra felt betrayed by JFK after he became President. Kennedy cut all ties w/him, and Bobby starting leaning on the Mob.

So after the Kennedy brothers were killed, how did he feel about that?

Interesting guy.

If he cut someone out of his life he could be vicious. When he renovated his home so that President Kennedy could vacation there and Kennedy switched at the last minute to Bing Crosby's home, Sinatra blamed Peter Lawford and would no longer speak to him. Sammy said something mildly critical of him in a radio interview and Sinatra wouldn't speak to him for many years and then Sinatra finally let him grovel back into his life in the 70's. The black valet who wrote Mr S was also cut out of his life for being seen in public dancing with Mia Farrow. He never warmed up to his son who was a quiet sensitive type.

My sister majored in criminology many years ago. She did a thesis on the mafia, and she did extensive research. She said Frank Sinatra’s name constantly popped up because he was so intertwined with the mafia. Frank Sinatra laundered money for the mafia and in return Frank gained immense power in Hollywood, and he was very feared.

Everyone in Hollywood was extremely sacred of the man because of his mafia connections. Also, he was so powerful that he could make or break careers up until the end of the1980’s. He was like the Hollywood godfather, and you had to see him in order for your career to move forward. You were never ever to refuse his invitation. He made women sleep with him, and if they didn’t, they were through. He treated women like dirt, and I wouldn’t doubt that he beat up Mia. I feel deeply sorry for Marilyn Monroe because he knew she had very low self-esteem, and he used her to his advantage. He passed Marilyn around to mafia thugs, and other seedy characters like she was a piece of meat. He would often invite her to his Reno hotel where his mafia buddies were waiting to take turns having sex with her. There was a strong claim that a hit was placed on Dorothy Kilgallen because she said something about Frank that made him so angry that he said to her, your dead. He was pure evil man. Everyone in Hollywood kissed the guy’s ass big time. I once heard that Tina Sinatra is similar to her father in the sense that she can be calculating and very, very mean like he was. Apparently, Nancy Sinatra is the opposite. Also, many, many movie stars were friends with various mobsters because again, they were petrified of them. Can you imagine telling the mafia to get lost? I don’t think so. There was a documentary on Frank Sinatra that came out fairly recently. In the documentary, they mentioned how he dominated Hollywood and threw his weight around. Also, I was listening to the radio one evening, and a man wrote a book about the mob titled, ” For Members only: the story of the mob’s secret judge” by G.T. Harrell. The interviewer was asking the author and some other guests who had family that were connected with the mafia if Frank Sinatra was connected? The author and two other men laughed really hard, and said, your kidding right? They said, that is like asking, does the pope wears red?

He hated gays with extreme passion. If he donated to an AIDS charity then it was to benefit him in some way. He was only friendly with some homosexuals in Hollywood to use them to his advantage. He knew Montgomery Clift was gay during the filming of “From Here to Eternity”. He was just being friendly with Clift because Montgomery Clift was an actor’s actor, and Frank Sinatra was always striving to be a fantastic actor. So, he wanted to gain some acting knowledge from Montgomery Clift. When Montgomery Clift was drunk at one of Frank Sinatra’s parties, Clift was trying to pick up a guy at the party. Frank Sinatra yelled at Clift to get out of his house immediately. That was the end of there so-called friendship. Homosexuality was one of the things that Sinatra couldn’t stand to the point that its legendary.

[quote]He left River City, the library building, but he left all the books to her!

Ah, he must have also had a huge BALLLLLSACK!

Thanks, R44.

He ate a plate of ham and eggs off a prostitute's bare chest.

His mother was a neighborhood abortionist known as "Hat Pin Dolly."

[r44]'s homophobic smear is full of shit, especially declaring his donation to AIDS charities self-serving. As with other charities, he kept a low-profile. He was however seen at AmFar benefits when it was extremely controversial.

Where people come up with this shit is beyond me -- oh well, it's shit, so it's coming out of their asses.

My dad lived in Vegas in the 1950s (briefly) and said Sinatra's reputation for fighting was real -- but that Sinatra's idea of a fight was to have his bodyguards hold a guy back while Sinatra took all the swings he wanted.

"He was very abusive to the staff in the casinos in Las Vegas. He seemed to mellow out after he married Barbara Marx, to some extent."

I don't know about that, #R29. I worked at Harrah's Tahoe in the late 70's when Sinatra performed for there for the first time. It was such a big deal for him to even be in Tahoe, the entire staff was told if they went to his show, even if they paid full price, they'd be fired. The show was for customers/high rollers only. People came from all over the world, and it was sold out every night. Harrah's never had a problem with someone on staff seeing an occasional show, but this was different.

Late during his run, Sinatra found out about this - and put on a 3AM show (his fourth show that night) for just the staff/dealers/bar/hotel people, etc. He paid for everything - his band, drinks, dinners - and when the show was over, he sent the band home and took requests with his pianist until 6AM. It was one of the most magical nights of my life. Most of the audience was made up of college kids working for the summer (Harrah's used to recruit at Calif. and Nevada schools for summer jobs). At the end of the night/morning, he was crying, and said he hadn't performed for an audience of "kids" in years. I think he had a better time than we did. Magic, magic, magic.

And BTW, he was lovely to the staff. Big tipper when he was gambling, and always said hi to us when he walked through the employee lounge under the showroom.

"He threatened to kill poor Kitty Kelley."

And that's a character flaw?

I heard on Fox news (Yea...go figure) that Sinatra was involved in the attempted setup and disgrace of Robert Kennedy. This was part of some sort of FBI thing that happened in the early 70's. I don't have the link but the full story should be on google.

Is it true that he fucked Jackie O in the early 70's???

The stories of Desi Arnaz and Harlan Ellison standing up to bully Sinatra are both pretty hilarious.

Since Arnez was leasing space to Frank Sinatra's production company at Desilu studios, where Arnez was also filming The Untouchables, Tony Accardo told Sam Giancana to contact Frank Sinatra and have him talk some sense into Arnez.

While a direct order from the Godfather himself would have scared most Americans, for a wanna-be gangster like Sinatra, it was almost an orgasmic experience.

In late April of 1961, Sinatra, actress Dorothy Provine and Jimmy Van Heusen drove to the Indian Wells Country Club and waited in the restaurant, where Arnez ended most evenings at the bar, when Arnez walked in flanked by two massive bodyguards.

Almost on schedule, Arnez strolled into the club, dwarfed by his bodyguards. Spotting Sinatra, Arnez yelled across the room,"Hi Ya Dago!" and then walked over to Sinatra's table.

Sinatra was all business and got right to the point. He told Arnez that his Italian gangster friends didn't like the Untouchable program and that it made all Italians look like killers.

Arnez, slurred with whiskey, replied: "What do you want me to do Frank, make them all Jews?" Except in his thick Cuban accent it came out "U's."

"You want them all to be U's, Frankie? Huh? Let me tell you something, I remember you when jew couldn't get a yob Frankie, couldn't get a yob! So why don't you forget all this bullshit and just have your drinks and enjoy yourself? Stop getting your nose in where it doesn't belong you and your so-called friends," and then walked away leaving a castrated Sinatra to say "I couldn't hit him, we've been friends for too long."

At around 4:00 A.M. Sinatra's group, boozed up, left the bar and went to Van Heusen's house in Palm Desert, with Sinatra still fuming over the humiliation he had taken from Arnez.

Once inside Van Heusen's house, Sinatra exploded and attacked an original painting by Norman Rockwell, carving it up with a kitchen knife. "If you try to fix that or put it back," he told Van Heusen, "I will come and blow the fucking house up."

The Untouchables not only stayed on the air, it became a classic and spawned a film and started television's love affair with gangsters.

Is this what you're writing about, R52? An informant said the mafia wanted to attack the character of Teddy, RFK and Peter Lawford.

There's also the story that, when Marilyn threatened to go public with the JFK affair, Sinatra called her up to Reno, where he drugged her and allowed his crew to gang rape her repeatedly while she was passed out. Photos/video were taken and she kept her mouth shut out of fear he'd leak the pics and her career would be over.

"The stories of Desi Arnaz and Harlan Ellison standing up to bully Sinatra are both pretty hilarious."

Tell us the Harlan Ellison story!

How about letting Gay Talese tell the Ellison-Sinatra story?

Sinatra was a nasty shit and vastly overrated as a singer. Dick Haymes was much better, and so was Vic Damone, to know two off the top of my head.

I agree with you (R59). Tony Bennett and Jack Jones are really fantastic as well.

This article is from News Max So Don't Freak Out. I bumped into this, and I thought it would be interesting to share this find since there is a discussion about Frank Sinatra. FBI Files were released on Ted Kennedy Monday June 14. Maybe there will be a lot more information coming out? from the FBI? who knows?

Memo: Mafia Rumored to Set up Kennedys for Scandal Monday, 14 Jun 2010 07:05 PM Article Font Size

An informant told the FBI in 1965 that it was rumored, though never substantiated, that mafia bosses hoped to use associates of entertainer Frank Sinatra to ensnare brothers Robert and Edward M. Kennedy in compromising positions with women in retaliation for a crackdown on organized crime.

The rumor is mentioned in a memo that was part of the FBI files released Monday on the late Sen. Edward M. Kennedy.

The agent who sent the memo to the office of FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover described the information as "nebulous and vague."

Agents in Milwaukee took the information from an unidentified source "who had furnished reliable information in the past," according to the memo. However, the informant couldn't verify that any of the details about the rumor were true.

"This is allegedly to be accomplished by working with outfit associates of Frank Sinatra to arrange for their women to be placed in compromising situations in the presence of any or all of the two Kennedys and Peter Lawford," the Aug. 3, 1965, memo stated. At the time Lawford, an actor who was part of the Sinatra "Rat Pack," was married to Kennedy sister Patricia Kennedy.

The memo came nearly two years after the 1963 assassination of President John F. Kennedy. His brother Robert had been attorney general from 1961 until September 1964 when he resigned to campaign for a Senate seat from New York, which he won that fall. As attorney general, he lobbied for legislation that expanded federal powers against organized crime and greatly increased the resources available to the Justice Department's organized crime section.

Edward Kennedy had been representing Massachusetts in the Senate since a special election in 1962.

The FBI files include a one-page document generated about the same time that talks about sex parties at the Hotel Carlyle in New York City. Among those mentioned as participants were the Kennedy brothers along with Lawford, Sinatra, actress Marilyn Monroe, who died in 1962, and entertainer Sammy Davis Jr.

Unlike the Milwaukee memo, the reference to sex parties came with no documentation that would indicate where the information came from or what the FBI thought of its veracity.

[quote]There's also the story that, when Marilyn threatened to go public with the JFK affair, Sinatra called her up to Reno, where he drugged her and allowed his crew to gang rape her repeatedly while she was passed out. Photos/video were taken and she kept her mouth shut out of fear he'd leak the pics and her career would be over.

That's so fucked up

Boy, that Gay Talese story exemplifies the phrase "less is more."

I hate my friend Frank Sinatra!

I heard Sinatra controls the weather and wrote the screenplay to Ishtar!

"It's believed now that he was manic-depressive" BULLSHIT. He was an alcoholic. Besides being a bully, Sinatra was also as insecure as anyone could possibly be -- he hated anyone who had slept, with or was rumored to have slept with, Ava Gardner even after they divorced. That included Lena Horne.

Supposedly he did something unspeakably horrible to Dominick Dunne's wife that Dunne held a grudge over ever since.

Told her Dunne was queer?

He only "loved" Ava Gardner because she one-upped him when it came to sleeping around.

I heard he fucked a frog.

Urban legend, R70.

He actually wrapped the frog in duct tape and shoved it up his ass to get off while he gang raped and beat up every woman in Hollywood, and when he was done with each one would say "ding"... which, as we all know, is where "ring a ding ding" came from.

Oh yes, and he ate puppy and kitten stew, wiped out all unicorns from the planet, and gave Judy Garland a lethal overdose to send her "over the rainbow" once and for all. Fucking carnegie hall was his fucking venue. She should've known better.

Nuff Said...

A week before her death, Monroe spent a weekend at Lake Tahoe's Cal-Neva Lodge as a doped-up plush-toy of owners Frank Sinatra and Sam Giancana. Later, friend Ralph Roberts said Monroe described it as a "nightmare," and that she'd felt more like a prisoner than a guest. Photographer Billy Woodfield, who'd worked with both Monroe and Sinatra, told Wolfe that Sinatra gave him a roll of film from the weekend to develop: "In his darkroom the photographer was shocked to see that the photos were of an unconscious Marilyn Monroe being sexually abused in the presence of Sam Giancana and Sinatra. Marilyn had been drugged in order for the compromising photos to be taken." Woodfield advised Sinatra to burn them.

FBI electronic surveillance of Giancana corroborated the account. Agent Bill Roemer remembers a conversation, after Monroe's death, between Giancana and Johnny Rosselli:

The conversation was muted, but what I had gleaned was that Giancana had been at Cal-Neva...with Sinatra and Marilyn the week before she died. There, from what I had been able to put together, she was involved in an orgy. From the conversation I overheard, it appeared she may have had sex with Giancana. Rosselli said to Giancana, "You sure get your rocks off fucking the same broads as the brothers, don't you?"

The weekend over, Marilyn flew back to LA and entered her limousine barefoot, "out of it - a mess."

[quote]What sorts of evil shit was he involved in when he was alive? He helped propel Liza Minelli's career.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

another

and another

"Frank Sinatra had a big...uncircumcised dick. All the Hollywood dames loved Frank." Gay men and their fantasies that women are exactly like them....LOL.

R47 forgot to mention the part about his using a steak knife to cut the ham.

I believe pretty much nothing in R44's post, and if the people at R54's link can't even spell "Arnaz" correctly, I'm not inclined to believe THAT, either.

Harry Smith, an old time piano player, was playing in a bar in New York in the late 1950s and it must have been during one of Sinatra's off times with the usuals because he had a bimbo with him at a table. Harry told the story of how Sinatra was acting odd at the table and got up and went to the men's room.

Harry was gay and had heard the stories and took his break and followed. Sinatra was washing his dick and balls off in the sink with his trousers pulled down. His cock lived up to its reputation. "Fucking cunt jacked me off under the table," was Sinatra's explanation.

That last weekend Marilyn Monroe was alive sounds like torture. No wonder it threw her over the edge. So sad.

My partner lived with Ava in London for a summer. This has been posted before. He knew Frank as well and his dad was real close to Sinatra and Ava. My partner used to fly around with Frank in his plane. My partner has written here that Frank and Ava were the 'love' of each others life and Ava never got over him. Ava told him a lot about Frank and her relationship with him.

We heard that one before, r80, I believe it was invented at the Datalounge.

BTW, Sinatra had hookers around him all the time. Same with JFK.

R81, So you believe it was suicide?

Sinatra could be good to those he loved. But he was a monster too. Probably got away with near murder a number of times. Oh he did some good things. He was color blind and helped gets black entertainers into Vegas. But for every good deed, there are just as many bad ones.

I could care less how big his dick was- he was a dick head- the book his butler wrote tells of a pretty awful man, in practically all respects, and I gather he was not a happy man at the end of his life, or at any part of his life really.

From Gay Talese's story that R58 linked to: [quote]Sinatra said, "What do you do?" [quote]"I'm a plumber," Ellison said. [quote]"No, no, he's not," another young man quickly yelled from across the table. "He wrote The Oscar." [quote]"Oh, yeah," Sinatra said, "well I've seen it, and it's a piece of crap." [quote]"That's strange," Ellison said, "because they haven't even released it yet." [quote]"Well, I've seen it," Sinatra repeated, "and it's a piece of crap." Everyone here knows Sinatra is IN "The Oscar," right? So someone explain to me why Sinatra would have said a movie he was in was "a piece of crap," and why Ellison would have thought it "strange" that Sinatra knew about the movie before it was released. They'd both have to be pretty fucking forgetful for this conversation to make any damn sense.

He was drunk when he did it?

Actually, Sinatra has only a cameo at the very end. Perhaps he thought he should have played the lead.

"Sinatra could be good to those he loved"

Yeah, AFTER it was over. He'd pay for your funeral.

Oh, yes, there's also the wrong door raid. That's when Sinatra & Joe Dimaggio knocked down a woman's apt door thinking they'd find Monroe in there *with* another woman.

Sinatra always came across as an evil nasty arrogant horrible human being. I recall my parents disliking him immensely, they were big fans of Tony Bennett.

My father in particular would say things like, "I wouldn't spend one damn penny on a Sinatra record, the man's an arrogant pig." Neither of my parents ever elaborated why they disliked him so much.

They were jazz, pop and R'n'B record collectors. There was not one Sinatra record in their collection, not even a 45 record.

When Mia Farrow married Sinatra, my mother said, "She must either be completely insane or he's paying for her drug habit."

[quote]That last weekend Marilyn Monroe was alive sounds like torture. No wonder it threw her over the edge. So sad.

Yeah, if only it were true. While MM wasn't in the best of shape, she also wasn't gang-raped or had any revealing photographs taken of her for future blackmail purposes.

How do you know, R90?

"an arrogant pig."

One could say the same about Barbra Streisand.

He stood up to the Nevada casinoes and show rooms and insisted they integrate their hotels and operations so that Sammy Davis Jr., Nat Cole and others could perform and get the respect due them. I hope that bought him a lot of karma.

We're from Brooklyn, and there were always stories from across the river in Jersey about Dolly being an abortionist. They really upset my mother; I pointed out that in the 20's Hoboken had a large population of poor immigrants who maybe didn't speak English, didn't have the money for doctors or counseling and didn't trust authorities. She owned a bar and certainly knew hookers and other women who needed abortions. Incest victims,women with 8 or 12 children who would have a breakdown if they had one more child, or whose health would be threatened by another pregnancy, rape victims, mentally disturbed or retarded girls. Maybe Dolly was their only hope.

Garry Trudeau thinks Sinatra was connected up the wazoo. Don't know where he got all his information (Yale connections? Pauley's reporting contacts, or a story she did?), but he lambasted him in the strip for months. One entire book I have is filled with Sinatra-bashing, and there's an I-Hate-Doonesbury quotation on the cover.

>>"an arrogant pig."

One could say the same about Barbra Streisand.>>

I never said my parents were fans of Streisand. They probably hated him so much because he gave a bad name to Italian-Americans, especially as his mother was a back alley abortionist and he supposedly had mob ties.

To me Frank Sinatra has always seemed very low class and just plain sleazy. He was very phony, like most nouveau riche performers, he forgot his humble beginnings.

Although some of the Rat Pack's routines with Sammy Davis Jr was insulting, cringeworthy and racist, Sinatra WAS progressive in his private life about race relations and as someone has already said, he COULD be a sweet guy to people who were close to him. He also was said to be a big reader and a lot more sophisticated and low-key than his boisterous and brash rep would have you believe. His voice, music and his "good" side keep me a fan even though those "other" aspects of his persona are disturbing.

Well R90, not to highjack the thread, the supposed photos were taken to keep Monroe quiet about her affair with both JFK and RFK.

1. She didn't have an affair with JFK, though she sleep with him ONCE during his Palm Springs visit at Crosby's instead of Sinatra's.

2. She stated that the rumors about her and RFK weren't true.

(Both of these were confirmed by her confident Ralph Roberts who was mentioned in the lengthy passage from what I'm assuming was "Goddess" by Anthony Summers.

3. Marilyn wouldn't be stupid enough to call a press conference and admit to the world she was fucking the President.

4. Because in all her years of broken marriages and ended affairs, Monroe never "blasted" her exes in public, why would she about the President and Attorney General?

(The press conference was most probably to announce that MM was going to finish Something's Got To Give in October 1962 with her pay raised to $500,000 from $100,000.)

5. Sinatra and Monroe briefly dated in the latter part of 1961 (he gifted her with a pair of $10,000 emerald earrings), and while he thought she was "messed up", he cared for deeply her wouldn't have allowed such a thing to happen - even if orders came from "da Mob".

Need more R91?

So let's see, R89, your ethnic-hating, myth-reliant parents hated Frank Sinatra.

Well, now, that's validation for hating him.

My immigrant grandparents – not Italian -- were working class their whole lives and they and everyone they knew loved Sinatra. He did not "forget" his roots -- and reached out, as has been said, to people who were excluded his whole life. Listen to Sinatra on the Sands where he stands up to racism BEFORE the Civil Rights Act kicks in.

Every major critics list of albums of the century include his albums on them.

Your parents sound like the lunatic fringe -- the tea partiers of their day.

R89 -- let's compare your parents to Martin Luther King: "On January 27, 1961, Sinatra played a benefit show at Carnegie Hall for Martin Luther King, Jr. He played a major role in the desegregation of Nevada hotels and casinos in the 1960s. Sinatra led his fellow members of the Rat Pack and label-mates on Reprise in refusing to patronize hotels and casinos that wouldn't allow black singers to play or wouldn't allow black patrons entry. He would often speak from the stage on desegregation. He played more benefits for King. According to Frank Sinatra, Jr., at one point during a show in 1963 King sat weeping as Sinatra sang Ol' Man River, the song from the musical Show Boat that, in the show, is sung by an African-American stevedore." Yeah, he was an evil fuck.

r99, that's especially moving since Sinatra grew up in Hoboken, at the time a home to a lot of longshoremen and stevedores ("On The Waterfront" was filmed there.)

R86, I read that piece years ago and had the same question. Very perplexing--the exchange didn't make any sense at all. I suspect that Talese didn't know that Sinatra was in the movie as well since he didn't comment on the obvious.

Or something.

There are just a few artists and entertainers who could classified as the greatest of the 20th century. Frank Sinatra and his music wee king.

>>So let's see, [R89], your ethnic-hating, myth-reliant parents hated Frank Sinatra.

Well, now, that's validation for hating him.

My immigrant grandparents " not Italian -- were working class their whole lives and they and everyone they knew loved Sinatra. He did not "forget" his roots -- and reached out, as has been said, to people who were excluded his whole life. Listen to Sinatra on the Sands where he stands up to racism BEFORE the Civil Rights Act kicks in.

Every major critics list of albums of the century include his albums on them.

Your parents sound like the lunatic fringe -- the tea partiers of their day.>>

R98, you must have reading comprehension problems.

Ethnic hating parents? My parents are Italian, Scottish, Spanish and French, they obviously hated Sinatra for for other reasons than him being an embarrassment to the working class Italian-Americans community. That was MY perception why I thought they disliked him so much. There could be other reasons, especially as we had so many professional musicians in the family, a few who had worked with Sinatra.

My parents are as far away from Tea Partiers as one can get, ha-haaa.. They were liberal, open minded and made their living working in the arts. In fact, my father introduced a lesbian cousin to her long term partner, he worked with the partner.

How you can get so much background info on my parents political leanings (you are so completely wrong it's laughable) from my brief posts, why, you're a fucking genius!

You assume Sinatra was such an open minded person because: "He played a major role in the desegregation of Nevada hotels and casinos in the 1960s"? How about what a chauvanist pig he was to so many women?

Lastly, who cares what critics think about any type of music, I don't buy music based on critics reviews or 'best of' lists, look at the garbage passing for music these days, then tell me about critics! I buy what I enjoy. I don't follow the pack.

P.S. to [R89]

You do realize Tony Bennett was a fan of Sinatra's, despite the fact that Sinatra's versions of songs premiered by Bennett are more famous.

When astronauts went to the moon, they took Sinatra's version of "Fly Me to the Moon", not Bennett's.

Let's recap: On the one hand, as fans of Sinatra's we have Martin Luther King, top music critics, Tony Bennett, pioneering astronauts, legions of fans...

On the other hand, we have your prissy bitter parents.

Tony Bennett, eleven years younger than Sinatra, was heavily INFLUENCED by him, as were all of the post-war crooners, as earlier, Sinatra was by Bing Crosby.

Bennett has a rather spineless *happy way* in public; he's got a heavy denial thing going - of his own former drug addiction and the way he's treated former wives, loads and loads of drama. Saying that, I far prefer Bennett's singing.

As far as Sinatra and civil rights goes, EVERY celebrity was on board for black civil rights, even Repubs like Chaleton Heston. It was a no-brainer in the 1960s.

But Sinatra was going up against segregation and racism in the 40's. I remember reading about him forcing a hotel manager to let one of his producers (?) Sy Oliver stay in the same hotel. There was also a racial incident in the midwest at a school in the 40's and he came to speak with students and parents to cool things off. This may have already been mentioned up thread, but R105's comment made me remember some of the things he did prior to the big civil rights era.

R89/R103, let's break it down for you.

Your parents, according to your perceptions, hated him, as you say in a later post, for giving a bad name to Italian-Americans. We call that stereotyping. And I don't care what "Italian" blood they had in them, even gay people are known to have self-loathing in them. And if that's the reason for hating him, it's an ethnic swipe. Like saying a black man gives black people a bad name. Because someone who would say that kind of shit is focusing on race, just like you and your parents are focusing on ethnicity.

As for your continued bashing of him for his treatment of women, let's unpack it: (1) you conclude this makes him NOT open-minded? Based on you and your parents, I hardly consider you the judge of what's open minded. But one can be open-minded on some things, not on others, BUT EVEN SO (2) what you and the bitter twits on this thread continue to harp on is GOSSIP. And yet you are the ones you always dismiss the FACTS. The FACT that he stood up for civil rights, the FACT that he contributed to AIDS causes, the FACT that he befriended openly gay men, and on and on an on.

YOU say things like he "ALWAYS" came across as a evil nasty arrogant horrible human being.

ALWAYS? No, you dimwit, we're proving to you it's NOT that simple.

You're full of hate, basing it on innuendo and your equally dim parents -- or at least how you portray them.

And in case you didn't get it, NO ONE is saying that you should like someone BECAUSE other people do. What we are saying is that there are masses of people with DIVERSE TASTES that do admire his talent, which suggests that you and your parents are, among other things, in the minority when it comes to taste.

I don't think Frank Sinatra would have sung at Rush Limbaugh's wedding for a million dollars.

Perhaps, but let us not forget that Sinatra became a flaming REPUBLICAN after the Kennedy era.

And Anderson Cooper has donated to Republican friends, and Ricky Martin sang at the Bush inauguration, and Dixie Carter was and James Earl Jones is a registered Republican...

Most people consider a key twist in Sinatra's party switch the fact that he campaigned for and supported Kennedy only to have his administration and the Johnson administration investigate him. Were they right to do it? Possibly. Was the FBI as reprehensible as the people investigated? Often. It made him extremely bitter.

And keep in mind who the opposition candidates were -- McGovern, Carter, Mondale, Dukakis -- all losers by whopping majorities.

Sinatra was not a saint. He had many many public low points. But he also had many many high points and did many great things.

Calling him an evil fuck and always a horrible nasty person is pathetic. Are there people that deserve that judgment? Probably. Sinatra: based on a lot of unconfirmed gossip, much of it wild stories -- see this thread -- that borders on hysteria.

I wonder what kind of film will Scorsese make about Sinatra. I bet it won't be anything controversial. I mean, I'd be happy with an interesting character study, but days of Ragging Bull are long gone, and we're probably looking at something as polished and benign as The Aviator.

Wasn't Scorsese going to cast Leo as Sinatra?

Scorsese is making a Sinatra movie? Is it based on a book?

R83, you're probably accustomed to always being right, but Harry was in his sixties when I met him in 1970, and the story was his and as near as I could tell a true one. Playing piano in bars was how he made his living.

He said Sinatra didn't care about his looking at it, and he was still tumescent so it looked quite impressive.

While we all know about Sinatra's having hookers around, we won't put you down for commenting on the obvious because that would be as tiresomely rude as some other posters around here, wouldn't it?

After reading so much conflicting and rich stories about Sinatra, I have concluded that he was an enigma. Not all good. Not all bad. And one of the best voices of mid-century America. The voice lost it's luster in later years but for pure song interpretaton and artistry, he ruled for a finite time.

I know all the horror stories but I can still segregate them and listen to his music with appreciation. Perhaps it's because the songs he sang, at least during his Nelson Riddle 1950's period, rang true to the type of person he was. Sad, haunting and melancholy songs by a rather dangerous and troubled man. A hood and a small time thug, perhaps, but his songs were not warm fuzzies either. Knowing what I know of him, it adds layers and shades to his music.

Funny, I have a harder time doing this with Bing Crosby. I can barely stand to hear his voice knowing what I know about what a grade A asshole he was. Not sure what the difference is except that Crosby put on that "happy go lucky affable fellow" routine and it was so nauseatingly opposite of the "real him." Sinatra always seemed a little volatile just beneath the surface, a little dangerous with a short fuse. I think his public persona had a veneer, certainly, but you could also see the mess he was lurking just behind the facade.

Well said, R114. I'm not a particular fan, but Sinatra was obviously a complex personality. Not a bad actor, either. I recommend "The Man with the Golden Arm."

With Bing Crosby, for all his suave smoothness, the fact that two of his kids killed themselves says it all.

[quote][R81], So you believe it was suicide?

I'm positive, but it does seem probable. Her friends treated her badly, they were friends with her because she was "Marilyn Monroe", and she feared Elizabeth Taylor was taking over her role in Hollywood. Did she have anyone who loved her?

I hope a few people did R116. She was a mess but she certainly had luminescence to her when she was on screen. Performances still wonderfully enjoyable. She was insightful enough to realize fame was temporary and people might not care about her but they still wanted a piece of her.

My dad idolized Sinatra. Absolutely thought he was the coolest guy on earth. As a kid I just thought he was corny. Not until adulthood could I appreciate his music and marvel at the way he could sing a song.

I agree with the others that he was probably a mixed bag. Undoubtedly he was capable of being a first class asshole but I do believe he looked out for and took care of the people that mattered to him.

No question he was a unique, complex man with an incredible talent.

I believe pretty much nothing in [R44]'s post,

(R79) I really, really don't care whether you believe me or not. That is what I know take it or leave it. You didn't see the extensive research she did. So your prejudging something site unseen, and you sound like a complete idiot. Also, the documentary that I watched they said he was like the godfather of Hollywood, and he was a very feared man who could make or break careers. Again, I really, really don't care if you believe that or all of the rest of the stuff I stated. Let me reiterate, your prejudging something site unseen, and you sound like a complete idiot.

Also, Frank Sinatra was a complete misogynist. He had sex with women and dumped them. I don't care what charity the man donated to. One of things he hated the most was homosexuality, and anyone who says otherwise is just pain crazy. Many, people stated this to be a fact. His butler's book on Frank Sinatra, “Mr. S: My Life with Frank Sinatra” by George Jacobs, is considered a well-done book, and received really good reviews. He sates a lot of these facts in his book. He also stated in his book that Frank Sinatra was friends with SOME gay men because he was using them. Also, various others sated this factor about Frank Sinatra too. Also, Natalie Wood was Frank's mistress for a while before she married Robert Wagner.

His mother Blackmailed politicians because they would get girls pregnant and the girls would go to her for an abortion. She had the dirt on theses guys, and in those days if she were to relive such a thing, those politicians’ careers would be obliterated. So, he got finical gain from those politicians

The case with Dominick Dunne, Frank Sinatra had one major insecurity, and that was he did not have a college education. He read as much as much as could. Also, he tried to get accepted into high society, but they would not allow him in their circles because they thought he was not in their league.

Dominick Dunne considered Frank Sinatra nothing, but a complete thug. According to Dunne, Frank Sinatra Hated Dunne because he was an Ivey league graduate. He would take it out on Dunne's wife, and frank called Dunne's wife filthy names. Dunne's wife was considered a sweet lady who didn't deserve that abuse. And Dunne was well liked as a gentleman to everyone who knew him.

Dunne was defiantly gay, but he never followed through in his homosexual yearnings. Dunne was way in the closet. In Dunne’s last novel, “Too Much Money” he has the main character in the book described identically to the tee as Dunne. The character was married, divorced, had children, but was gay. The charter's reveled this to his children when they were adults and they were accepting who he was. It sounds like this was his way of outing himself. You get the strong impression that Dominick Dunne knew he was going to die when he wrote that novel.

Kitty Kelly’s biography on Frank Sinatra was considered very, very well researched and very well done, but the biographies she wrote after writing his, her creditability went down the tubes because her sources were very questionable, and her research wasn’t done well at all verses the Frank Sinatra biography. She sounds like she got full of herself.

Sinatra worshiped the mafia -

When police in Naples, Italy, searched Lucky Luciano's home several years after the Havana getaway, they found a gold cigarette case with the inscription, "To my dear pal Lucky, from his friend, Frank Sinatra."

"even Repubs like Chaleton Heston"

Totally beside the point, but Heston was a liberal Democrat until the Johnson/Goldwater race. For whatever reason, it was at that time that Heston made the radical political change.

[quote]Also, Frank Sinatra was a complete misogynist. He had sex with women and dumped them.

Using this criterion 95% of straight men are misogynists.

R118 can barely write. I'm surprised he can read. ("Ivey" league? Really? "Pain crazy"?)

This is the level of intelligence we're dealing with folks - not to mention someone on the one hand who endorses a self-loathing gay man's book for his opinion on Sinatra's views on gender and sexuality.

When people say things like Sinatra's a "misogynist" because he dated and dumped women and therefore you don't care about anything else, you're really showing your idiocy.

If you're going to dismiss people as having NO value because of their dating habits, well good luck to you. This is the way men behave. Beloved Anderson Cooper has been through his share of men, as have most gay men. And many lesbians date and dump many women as well. (Martina anyone?)

This is the standard we're going by?

Sinatra was a product of an era when even gay men were ashamed of their sexuality and were substantially oppressed and largely not seeking civil rights. I'm not going to read a gossip book by his butler as definitive of his behavior, much less a butler's attribution of motives to Sinatra, most of whom Sinatra recognized were great people on their own and "used" him as much he "used" them.

Frankly, any reader of Datalounge will find a lot of nasty shit about gay men written by gay men. How much of that is hating "all" homosexuality is for anyone to decipher.

Do I believe Sinatra was a champion of gay rights? No. But he openly, publicly associated with and praised gay men, and again the FACTS, not gossip, is what he did and said. When you dismiss those facts -- and his charity work, in favor of gossip books -- we know what kind of loon you are.

"This is the way men behave."

Not really. A certain type of man behaves like that. Not all.

O-kay, Little Miss Muffet, [R123]

Go worship all your little monogamous saints who have produced art that is great to you.

The obsession with trashing a dead man with innuendo spewed by people with a motive -- not to mention extreme fiction: get that checked out.

There is nothing more pathetic than 70 yr old fanboys.

I see the obsessed Frank Sinatra fangurl trolls are out in full force in this thread. Someone gives a personal reason why they dislike Frank The Wank, then Sinatra trolls gang up on him. How adult of you.

Is this ganging up on person, who simply dislikes this man for their own personal reasons, despite his talent, any different from any kind of hate?

Idiots, the lot of you!

The problem with worshiping musicians, actors and actresses beyond enjoying their talent, is the fact that so many of these celebrities are simply not very nice people.

Enjoy their art, try to forget the rest, otherwise, you will most likely be extremely disappointed.

"Not really. A certain type of man behaves like that. Not all"

If a male was born in 1915, as Sinatra was, and has the prestige and the cash, as he did, it's the way men behaved. And all of this how lousy Sinatra (and JFK) were in bed -- that was the norm for most men of that age group. Ask your grandmother. Slam bam, than you ma'am was the way it was.

Frank was under investigation by the House Unamerican Activities committee because of his Left/Liberal leanings and his support of Civil Rights in the 40's. He was a huge admirer of Eleanor Roosevelt. He even recorded a song called The House I live In.

Having said that, I've read quite a bit about him over the years, because he was controversial, because he was a gifted artist, and because he was a cultural icon.

I believe the man was bi-polar, manic depressive, whatever you call it. He was an only child, spoiled, unstable, volatile personality, huge ego. Very particular about his "dignity."

When he became extremely successful, he also became extremely self-conscious. He was acutely aware of his lack of education and polish, and very defensive about it.

I think he started his own "clique," because he felt like an outsider to many of the people in Hollywood. He identified with the "Suits" he envied. Frank wanted to be in the In Crowd. Eventually he WAS the In Crowd.

From what I've read in other mafia books, yes, Frank gloried in his associations with them. He was infatuated with them, he laundered their money from time to time.

They liked to be around him because he was famous, successful, one of their own. He didn't run the other way. He embraced them. And he gave them entree into the glamourous life of Hollywood and Las Vegas in a way that made them feel legitimized (not legitimate.)

There's no one to compare to Sinatra when it comes to phrasing and styling a song. Up until the late 70's when his voice truly deserted him,no one could touch him.

I think his countless acts of wanton cruelty and menace, often fueled by alcohol, are well documented and probably mostly true. But I never wanted to be his best friend. I never wanted to be a member of the Rat Pack.

Frank Sinatra never, to my knowledge, openly cmapaigned against Gay Rights. He never spoke out against homosexuality in public. I can't talk about his personal life, but I'd imagine it was filled with the prejudices and bias of his generation and background.

I believe the story about Marilyn being drugged out of her mind at Cal Neva. The way I figure,it had nothing to do with protecting the Kennedys. He'd already fallen out with them. Giancana hated them, too. It had everything to do with Giancana wanting to fuck Marilyn.

I think Sam wanted the Kennedys to hear about him really fucking Marilyn. That probably pissed them off, and made them even more paranoid. I believe Marilyn was "encouraged" to commit suicide, and might even have had some help. But not from the mafia.

R126, let me point this out to you. Frank Sinatra is a public figure, not your daddy. You are way too personally involved with him to be taken seriously.

Odd that a committed homophobe would go near a film such as 'The Detective.' Sinatra's character is far from the type to raid bars at the drop of a hat. Maybe he was a closet homophobe: happy to appear tolerant in character, yet keen on prejudice in private. If so, he must have been quite conflicted during filming.

I posted earlier about Dolly Sinatra. For whoever posted about her blackmailing politicians who'd hired her to perform abortions for their girlfriends -- back in those days, that's how things were done. She may even have done it to make sure she got respect and wasn't just perceived by these men as a mechanic.

And maybe she was getting some back for their having treated those girls so badly.

By today's politicians' standards? Even by the Kennedys'? She was just doing business.

He was an Italian kid in a poor community dominated by Irish politicians and Irish priests. I wonder if one of those priests made a pass at him or abused him at some point?

Great post, R128. I think you are spot on.

Wow, none of you guys actually knew him...

"R126, let me point this out to you. Frank Sinatra is a public figure, not your daddy. You are way too personally involved with him to be taken seriously."

WTF are you talking about? I could give a shit about Frank Sinatra, his music, his life or his political leanings. So how the hell am I "personally involved" with him? You must have been an incredibly poor student because your reading comprehension skills are non-existent.

Your post directed to me makes zero sense. I posted that I could care less about ANY performers personal life, how it's a damn good idea not to worship them too much, beyond enjoying their art, because you might not like what you hear about them.

Many of my friends currently work in show business, believe me when I say, most celebrities are world's away from their public personas or the myths which surround them.

God, you are fucking dense!

Once again: The problem with worshiping musicians, actors and actresses beyond enjoying their talent, is the fact that so many of these celebrities are simply not very nice people.

Enjoy their art, try to forget the rest, otherwise, you will most likely be extremely disappointed.

Now do you understand my point, R129?

Actually it's the rare Sinatra number The inner conflict I find stimulating in the ladies doesn't sound the same coming out of a guy who also was trying to be da man.

R131, as I understand it, Dolly's political connections helped her get a job as a fireman for her husband when it was closed off to anyone who wasn't Irish, and she needed "help" getting Frankie off on a statutory rape charge with some local girl, when his nightclub career was just getting started.

I think your description, and another I read about her upthread, being the only hope for a lot of families and young women, is correct. Putting things in context, Dollie was a strong woman who looked out for her family and friends. She was a very influential local political figure at a time that was unheard of for women.

Frnak was accused of being a Communist sympathizer in the 40's. He was very Progressive. Not racist and not homophobic. If he grew into a homophobe in later years, he pretty much kept it confined to personal not public. Of course his race jokes and his gay jokes were offensive, but then so were most performers of that time.

It's really hard to pinpoint when he developed the chip on the shoulder, "eat shit and die" attitude in public, but it was probably during his downward spiral before "From Here to Eternity."

Vastly overrated by generations of deluded fans. His singing isn't that good, I'd say Tony Bennett's a better singer, but both of their music puts me to sleep. They both don't like rock and stuck to the same boring genre. All their records sound alike.

He's no Linda Ronstadt, is he, Barkley?

>>Vastly overrated by generations of deluded fans. His singing isn't that good, I'd say Tony Bennett's a better singer, but both of their music puts me to sleep. They both don't like rock and stuck to the same boring genre. All their records sound alike.>>

Barkley, I doubt either of them could sing rock music. I've never read that Tony Bennett didn't like rock, perhaps in it's infancy, but now, it's another story.

Tony Bennett is much more likable, he has actually been embraced by rock musicians over the past 15-20 years. Bennett's done an MTV "Unplugged" as well as having worked with a number of rockers, including Elvis Costello and Bono.

Tony Bennett just lived longer and had the good fortune of having a manager son who helped reinvent his dad's image. That, plus sheer damned luck in the TIMING of a career. The nostalgia for big band, ballad singers and crooners came along for people like Rosemary Clooney and Bennett at just the right time before they were put out to pasture. It was a niche market. The yuppies. The eighties. Suddenly swing dancing and cigar and martini bars were fashionable for the new generation. The old standards were suddenly hip and cool. Think about it, many younger pop and rock singers of the time started recording albums of old standards, starting with Linda Ronstadt! In the 60's and 70's those same old singers couldn't get arrested, seeming old and out of date.

By the 80's, Sinatra's voice was gone and he could have given a shit. He was fat, old and tired. So Tony Bennett became this "loveable, nice and gentile" character who was a bridge from the glories of a past generation. He might have BECOME that "nice" guy, of course, but he had a turbulent life full of drama and drugs, himself. That was not his "new" image. Now he is considered the grand master or something and the "last remaining crooner."

Sinatra is still the epitome of Rat Pack cool to many, though. Those who are ignorant of his true nature or simply overlook it. Many can separate the man from his art. To many he will always be the Chairman of the Board.

R122, the poster at R118 is familiar to me from one of the recent SusieLee threads; the oddball writing style, prolixity, random capitalization and overall bizarre nature of posting content gave him/her away. (This poster's identity can be confirmed with troll-dar as well, but I don't actually need troll-dar to play Spot the Looney.)

This poster implied that celebrities outed as gay after their deaths by biographers is horrible and shameful and then had a complete freakout as people called him/her on it.

I'm not sure what this person's problem is. In my opinion he/she appears to be older, not terribly articulate, and something of a freeper. Now we get to watch it melt down, accuse me of stalking, and issue repeated demands for my immediate banning.

PG 406

At least Ronstadt tried all types of music, same with Cher.

"After reading so much conflicting and rich stories about Sinatra, I have concluded that he was an enigma."

Wow. Carve it in stone, retard.

R142, you forgot the numerous "you idiot" and the "idiocy" in the posts of R122/118. There are about five going today (see Garbo). He doesn't belong here.

I find that gang rape story very hard to believe. If he wanted to physically abuse Marilyn he would've told Pat Kennedy Lawford to beat it. Wasn't she there with Marilyn that weekend?... One of the many reasons I LOVE Ava is because she didn't put up with his bullshit. Marilyn on the other hand was a completely different personality. I think Marilyn should have stayed away from Sinatra.

Well (r142) you sound like you are stalking this person. Everyone has a right to say what is on his or her own mind. What gives you the right to tell this person or any other person on DL to leave? Why don't you leave? You sound like a grouch.

R142 needs to get a life.

r148-9's pussy stinks.

In my opinion, there are very few "modern" artists in popular culture that approach genius level in their work. Frank is one. Miles Davis is another. When he was asked, Miles said Prince was to a younger generation. Michael Jackson, too.

Frank's "genius" phrasing was something he learned and imitated from Billie Holiday. If you listen to their recordings you'll notice it instantly.

He regularly had Lena Horne on his shows, he idolized Ella Fitzgerald, and he helped Count Basie square a gambling debt with their historic album recorded live at the Sands in Vegas.

As for gays, my theory is, Sinatra thought of them as curiosities, and was amused by the ones who were kind of "out" that he knew in 'show business.' Like a Paul Lynde type, for example. Their defensiveness in hiding behind their affectations worked for them, like Step-and-Fetch-It's grovelling.

At the same time, Sinatra was probably uncomfortable with the ones who were closeted but known, in H'wood. If a gay man earned a degree of acceptance and respect, Frank would never ostracize him, but if the gay man was an object of disdain, and viewed as a "perv," Frank would be among the first casting stones. But he'd do it privately.

"He regularly had Lena Horne on his show"

ONCE. And he could barely look at her. That was because of her and Ava.

"Did she have anyone who loved her?"

I think the only person in Marilyn Monroe's life who really loved her was Joe DiMaggio.

As for the Cal-Neva Lodge photos...well, there WERE photos, but they didn't picture Marilyn being gang-raped or sexually abused. They were just pictures of the world's most famous sex symbol doped, drugged, mentally ill and looking like hell.

If you believe the conspiracy theories and tales of Marilyn's "affairs" with both JFK and RFK then you must also believe that Marilyn Monroe was stark raving mad. Because the conspiracy theories center around Monroe's supposed belief that she would one day be the wife of a Kennedy. Here's how the story goes:

At first she thought her future husband might be Jack (the married, Catholic President of the United States), but after a few one night stands he lost interest and "passed" her on to his brother Bobby.

In Bobby's case the affair was hot and heavy; Monroe is said to have told a friend "Bobby Kennedy promised to marry me!" Since he was the Attorney General of the U.S., brother of the President, already married, Catholic, and the father of a slew of kids that seems pretty hard to believe. Marilyn then starts blabbing about her lover and Bobby back soff. Marilyn gets mad and threatens to "hold a press conference and blow the lid off this whole damn thing!" At least that's what a weird guy named Robert Slatzer, who claimed without proof that he was Marilyn's second husband, says she said. So the Kennedys had her murdered to shut her up.

I don't believe the conspiracy theories. I don't think Monroe was insane enough to believe that a permanent relationship could result between her and JFK. And it's debatable whether she had an affair with Bobby Kennedy at ALL, much less believe that he would dump his and destroy his political career in order to marry her. I think on her last night she took too many drugs and finally died. But it's more interesting (and profitable for a lot of people) to think that she was murdered and that there was a major cover-up. The public loves Hollywood mysteries.

[quote]I think the only person in Marilyn Monroe's life who really loved her was Joe DiMaggio.

Joe DiMaggio didn't love her. He used to beat her.

Not the first time, but the most famous. Joe beat her up in their hotel after he became incensed at the sexy, skirt-flying shoot for The Seven Year Itch. The noise was so great that other hotel guests reported it to the hotel's management, afraid that someone was getting badly hurt.

R150 its your own pussy you idiot. You are such an imbecile that you can't contemplate that smell is coming from right between your legs.

It's R118 the *idiot* troll!!!

Along with a lot of raided voices and furniture moved, DiMaggio manhandled Monroe that night in their suite after the Itch filming. He didn't beat her.

And after her marriage to Miller completely fell apart and Monroe was admitted to the psych ward of a NYC hospital, it was DiMaggio that got her out, in a regular hospital, then down to Florida for some rest.

And it was DiMaggio who claimed Monroe's body and arranged for her funeral. Then had flowers delivered to her crypt twice a week for twenty years.

Yeah, he hated her.

He wanted to control her. He also turned Sammy Davis and Ella Fitzgerald away at her funeral.

Photos of beloved american icon Marilyn being raped at the Cal-Neva lodge were sealed and stored at the World Trade Center - rather fitting don't you think?

[quote]In Marilyn's own words, "Joe never beat me without a good reason." She did not miss the physical abuse, but Joe learned to control his anger, and that made it acceptable to be nostalgic about being slapped around by Joe.

[quote]About the night on the 7 Year Itch scene 'He was smacking her around. He didn't seem too ashamed of it, either. He said that she brought the worst out in him, that he wasn't usually that kind of man.'

[quote]The next day, Gladys Witten, a studio hairdresser, noticed bruises on Marilyn's shoulders. 'But we covered them with make-up,'

[quote]Sportswriter Stacy Edwards says: 'The way I heard it, Joe let her have it. It was pretty bad. After he hit her, she told him she'd had enough and wanted out of the marriage.

The reports of Joe DiMaggio hitting and beating and bruising and slapping and smacking poor little Marilyn are grossly exaggerated.

He may have gotten rough with her on a few occasions but if even a fraction of what has been said and written about Marilyn Monroe is true it's to his credit that he didn't break her neck.

They had a violent argument after the "Seven Year Itch" publicity shoot where Marilyn was standing over the grate with her skirt flying up. The scene in the movie was modest, but the scene at 52nd Street and Lexington in New York City in the middle of the night was NOT. In that case the skirt blew over her head, revealing white panties so sheer that her pubic hair was visible. Joe DiMaggio showed up at the event and was greeted by the sight of his wife giggling and preening while dozens of photographer's aimed their lenses up his wife's dress. One onlooker said that DiMaggio had a look on his face like "death." "What the hell's going on here?", reportedly said, and got out of there as fast as he could. For this very traditional, conservative Italian man to see his wife making such a whorish spectacle of herself must have been devastatingly humiliating and embarrassing.

He didn't want to "own" her. He wanted her to be his WIFE. He wanted her to quit show business and have him take care of her. He wanted children with her and a home life with her. But she was too fucked up for a stable existence.

After they divorced he was still there for her whenever she needed someone to help her.

He turned away Sammy Davis and Ella Fitzgerald from her funeral? So fucking what? What business did they have being there anyway? He also banned Frank Sinatra, Peter Lawford and the Kennedys from her funeral. He thought her relationships with all her "Hollywood" friends and the Kennedys were detrimental to her. He was right.

Your the idiot R156. This is an interesting thread until R142, who is a troll, and who is ruining the fun. R142 sounds obsessive and completely strange that he or she is barking so much about R118.Can't this fool shut the hell up?

Look. Joe was a son of a bitch. He was a very conservative, straight-laced, arrogant, domineering, old school Italian. He didn't get along with anyone. His own son couldn't stand him. He was a remote moody, uncommunicative bastard. His brother Dom was a pretty decent guy. But Joe didn't even get along with his teammates.

He hooks up with this gorgeous, sexy blonde who had mental and emotional issues. She's a friggin' movie star! He expects her to change everything about herself, and be a stay at home wife, at his beck and call.

"Taking care" of her meant she was his prisoner. He would have smothered her, smashed her. Controlled her. He certainly did bat her around. How much emotional and physical abuse is acceptable! "Greatly exaggerated?" Bullshit.

Marilyn was a seriously tragic figure. Her entire life story is heart-breaking.

Complicated? Yes. Cruel? Yes, like a lot of other great artists (perhaps we should start a thread on that subject--great artists who were impossible in their private lives). A genius? Certainly. Along with Jolson, Crosby, and Presley, one of the most important figures in the last century as far as popular music goes.

The stories about MM are largely nonsense. Yes, they make for good gossip, but have about as much weight as toilet paper.

[quote]but have about as much weight as toilet paper.

with the content of used toilet paper.

Lord, how do ANY of you know what DiMaggio did or did not do to Marilyn? Were you THERE? It all depends upon what you believe. I believe he probably hit her. NO idea how many times or how long she stayed with him after it happened. I do know that it IS documented how pissed off he was the night she filmed the subway scene, though. By all accounts. But what happened later? In private? That's only conjecture.

Marilyn had some tragic things happen to her but she was not always a "victim." She was smart and very clear about her intentions a lot of the time. This, too, has been said by almost anyone who really KNEW her. She could piss people off royally and she used her stardom sometimes in selfish ways. She deserves every bit of her icon status for a lot of reasons but the poor, pitiful "Goodbye Norma Jean" Marilyn is just an image. Not what the real woman was about. Same with Garland. These women made their own choices a lot of the time and CHOSE to use the drugs and booze for whatever reason. Sad, perhaps, but they were not innocent by any means.

And I don't think Sinatra did anything "to" Marilyn that she did not willingly participate in.

R166, the thing is that Marilyn talked a lot to her friends. That's what a lot of information for the books.

Monroe did not willingly participate in the Cal Nevade 'photo shoot'. She was drugged out of her mind. I believe that she was sexually abused and photographed in degrading situations that night. Sinatra was co-opted by the mob to bring her there and Joe got her out of it and used his connections to shut the blackmail attempt down. Sinatra was a talented but corruptible man. He was tormented by this and tried to buy a ticket to heaven via large donations to the Catholic Church. Evil as fuck? In the end, that is exactly what he became.

A) Marilyn Monroe was constantly pilled and boozed up, by her OWN doing.

B) It's incredible to me that so many people believe this crazy Cal Neva gang rape conspiracy without any proof.

C) Here's a nice clip of a gay matchmaking skit that Frank did with Dean Martin....

R161, I suggest that you try google to find the reason why Ella may have wanted to pay her last respects to MM. She had as much, maybe more, reason as anyone else to pay homage to MM.

If Joe DiMaggio was upset with Marilyn when they got married, didn't he get a clue the type of person she was? She was a huge movie star, and a major pin-up icon. What was he expecting when he married her? June Cleaver? However, I heard he left a rose at her plot consistently near the time of his death. Apparently they were supposed to get remarried near the time of her death. Here are some facts directly cut and paste from Joe DiMaggio’s biography on Imbd.com :

Claimed Marilyn Monroe's body after her death, and arranged her funeral, paying for her casket and crypt.

Banned the Kennedys and Rat Packers from Marilyn Monroe's funeral.

Never remarried after Marilyn Monroe's death.

No matter what choices Marilyn Monroe made in her life I think she was a very sad, mixed up, person. When she was a child she went to different foster homes, and she was molested by various foster fathers repeatedly. Usually when women, especially back then, were molested as children they wind up blaming theirselves for the abuse. As a result, they wind up becoming prostitutes or becoming very sexually promiscuous with very low self- esteem. They didn't have very much awareness about child molestation in those days. Some of Marilyn’s friends said she was always looking for a father figure in a man who would take care of her and love her. It makes sense that Marilyn went to a psychiatric ward because again, growing up with those she looked up to for parental guidance, love, and trust betrayed her and violated her. So that pain just doesn’t go away when a person becomes an adult.

Substance abuse is used as a form of self-medicating emotional pain, and I can’t even fathom the deep-rooted pain she must have felt. Also, Hollywood was the worst place to be for someone like Marilyn Monroe because it was a business that used people to the maximum degree, and it could be a very vicious environment.

"Taking care" of her meant she was his prisoner. He would have smothered her, smashed her. Controlled her. He certainly did bat her around. How much emotional and physical abuse is acceptable! "Greatly exaggerated?" Bullshit."

You certainly have an ax to grind. You sound like those Marilyn worshippers who consider her a poor, sweet, innocent victim who was mistreated and abused her whole life by meanies like bad old Joe DiMaggio, boo hoo hoo!

What he wanted was for her to be a traditional wife and mother, someone who ran a household, cooked meals occasionally, and took care of the children. If you consider that an attempt to "smother" or "smash" her, then you have a very skewed idea of what a traditional marriage is.

I'd say of all the men in her life (and there were probably hundreds) DiMaggio was the only one who really cared about her. I think she knew that. After he got her out of the asylum she was quoted as saying "Thank God for Joe! Thank God!"

No matter what an evil prick Sinatra could be, he did help out many many people over the years who he remotely considered a friend. He paid for all of Ava's medical care in her later years and he gave money to Garland along the way, too. His acts of charity, however tainted with acts of cruelty, are legendary.

What he wanted was for her to be a traditional wife and mother, someone who ran a household, cooked meals occasionally, and took care of the children. If you consider that an attempt to "smother" or "smash" her, then you have a very skewed idea of what a traditional marriage is.

Did you ever hear the expression you can't turn a hoe into a housewife? What was traditional about MM that would make JD think she would be a housewife? And yes it was a attempt to smother and or smash her because she was what she was and he tried to make her into someone else. You can't get more smothered than that.

QUIT HIJACKING THIS INTO A THREAD ABOUT MARILYN MONROE.

In the book "Mr. S," the author, Frank Sinatra's longtime valet George Jacobs, alleged that Dinah Shore and Frank Sinatra had a long-standing affair in the 1950s.

Is there any other information about Frank and Dinah Shore? Kitty Kelly doesn't mention a relationship in her book, perhaps because Dinah provided a few quotes to her.

Frank appeared at least twice on Dinah's tv shows -- once during the 50's on her Chevy show and in the 70's on one of her talk shows. They seemed very intimate, epecially in the 70's show when he made a tomato sauce recipe as they sang and joked.

Also, were the rumors of a tryst with Jackie Kennedy true?

[quote]What he wanted was for her to be a traditional wife and mother, someone who ran a household, cooked meals occasionally, and took care of the children. If you consider that an attempt to "smother" or "smash" her, then you have a very skewed idea of what a traditional marriage is.

That may be what he wanted, but it's not what she wanted. She had that with her first husband and when she got the chance to be famous she divorced him. So, yes it was smothering for Marilyn. Not for people who want that life, but it was for her.

Sorry R175, you're right.

If you were married to this, would you fuck Sinatra?

[quote]Also, were the rumors of a tryst with Jackie Kennedy true?

I haven't heard those rumors. I'm curious.

Strange Kitty Kelly didn't mention the Dinah affair.

Why would ella want to pay respect to Marilyn?

"it's to his credit that he didn't break her neck. "

Um, no, it's not.

Ella and Marilyn were friendly acquaintances.

George Jacobs has lots of shit in his book that's questionable at best. Read the part where he says he witnessed Dietrich & Garbo making out in the pool -- in the 1950s, for crissakes!

"I owe Marilyn Monroe a real debt," Ella later said. "It was because of her that I played the Mocambo, a very popular nightclub in the '50s. She personally called the owner of the Mocambo, and told him she wanted me booked immediately, and if he would do it, she would take a front table every night. She told him - and it was true, due to Marilyn's superstar status - that the press would go wild. The owner said yes, and Marilyn was there, front table, every night. The press went overboard. After that, I never had to play a small jazz club again. She was an unusual woman - a little ahead of her times. And she didn't know it."

At this point, after 1000s of books and articles on her life--whatever anybody says about Marilyn Monroe probably tells us a lot more about their perceptions than providing any sort of revelation about Marilyn herself.

According to author Gay Talese, he got pissed off at SF writer Harlan Ellison for wearing ranger boots while they all watched a pool game with Leo Durocher. He grumbled & threatened at the little man until management asked Ellison to leave. I just thought that was trifling, weird & funny.

[R178], you wouldn't think so, but after her divorce from George Montgomery, Dinah went for that Reynolds fellow.

Maybe Sinatra made her an offer she couldn't refuse, or perhaps she enjoyed a man who sang softly and carried a big stick.

"Did you ever hear the expression you can't turn a hoe into a housewife? What was traditional about MM that would make JD think she would be a housewife? And yes it was a attempt to smother and or smash her because she was what she was and he tried to make her into someone else. You can't get more smothered than that."

Oh, give it a fucking rest. He didn't "smash" or "smother" her. How could he? She did what she wanted, and he didn't have any control over her at all.

She toyed with the idea of being the kind of wife DiMaggio wanted, but Monroe was not satisfied with ANYTHING, so of course their marriage failed. She failed at every relationship she had with a man.

And discussing Monroe here isn't exactly "hi-jacking" the thread. She and Sinatra were hot and heavy for a while and her last weekend at the Cal-Neva lodge was a legendary incident in Sinatra's life.

"Banned the Kennedys and Rat Packers from Marilyn Monroe's funeral."

This is interesting because Frank Sinatra was part of the Rat Pack, and Joe DiMaggio was a friend of Frank Sinatra. It sounds like Joe DiMaggio must have been pissed off with Frank and his rat pack pals, including the Kennedys. Sounds like he thought they played a role in using Marilyn if he didn't invite them to her funeral.

R181, that wouldn't surprise me about Dietrich because that woman screwed around with anything and everything that had two legs. However, you have a point about that being questionable because Frank Sinatra could not stand gays. Remember that incident when Frank was looking for Marilyn who was supposedly with another woman, and Frank Sinatra broke down the wrong front door? So again, I don't think they would have had sex at Frank Sinatra's estate.

As far as a butler encountering some affair or whatever, that isn't unusual. The staff in those households knew a lot of gossip.

[quote]She failed at every relationship she had with a man.

DiMaggio and his first wife, Dorothy Arnold, married on November 18, 1939, split up in 1942, but later reconciled in front of the press. They separated again on October 6, 1943. DiMaggio enlisted in the U.S. Army and was sent to Hawaii. Arnold filed for divorce, which was granted on May 12, 1944.

DiMaggio married Marilyn married on January 14, 1954. She filed for divorce on grounds of mental cruelty 274 days after the wedding.

Yeah, his relationships were a huge success.

Joseph Paul DiMaggio Jr., who was close to Marilyn, had a strained relationship with his father.

[quote]Marilyn who was supposedly with another woman, and Frank Sinatra broke down the wrong front door?

It wasn't another woman DiMaggio wanted to catch her with, but Hal Schaefer, her music coach/accompianist at Fox. They were using Shelia Stuart's apartment for their tryst. Monroe heard all the noise, ran down the back stairs of the apartment house and drove to her place in West Hollywood on DeLongpre where DiMaggio and Sinatra later found her car parked outside.

Here's a photo of the woman they stormed in on.

"Yeah, his relationships were a huge success."

Since Marilyn had "relationships" with hundreds of men and every last one crashed and burned, I'd say DiMaggio comes out ahead on this one.

Why did Joe Jr. not get on with his dad? Let me guess: DiMaggio was a cold, distant father whose son was never good enough?

DiMaggio was a pretty terrible father -

R190, Marilyn was probably bi-polar, something to look into when evaluating that kind of promiscuity.

OK, fine. Marilyn blah, blah, blah.

I want to know if Sinatra ever had an affair with Kim Novak. Is it true he dumped Juliette Prowse because he found out she was Black? I heard that but I also heard she had no intention of giving up her career and he insisted she had to. She also enjoyed publicity a little too much.

DiMaggio and Sinatra fell out behind the Cal Neva assignation with Giancana, etc.

My God, can you imagine sitting in the front row of an intimate club and getting to listen to Ella Fitzgerald every night for a week?

Heaven.

"I'm doing this because she's a nice gal and I'd like to give her a boost...but Christ...I wish it were Billie up there."

"I also heard she had no intention of giving up her career and he insisted she had to. She also enjoyed publicity a little too much."

So? What's you point R194. WHY should Prowse have given up her career? Why shouldn't she have used Sinatra for the publicity? She was South African, not black.

Here's a clip of Juliet and Sal Mineo dancing.

He threw a pool cue at a nude hooker at his Palm Springs house which caused her tit to shrivel up.

Sorry, I don't mean to divert the thread ,but Sal Mineo was so handsome.

My "point" is to get the discussion back on Sinatra and to discover more gossip about him because that is supposed to be what this thread is about.

As for Juliette, I KNOW she's South African. There were rumors about her years ago being of mixed race, and that it affected her relationship with Frank. There were also rumors she was only using Sinatra to get publicity and leaked stuff to the press to make the relationship seem more serious than it was, claiming they were engaged when they weren't.

I was also curious about his realtionship with Dean martin. Ir emember when I was very young, my mother being very excited to get tickets to see Frank Dean and Sammy Davis,performing together, when Dean abruptly dropped out of the tour and said it was just too much pressure. This happened in the middle of the tour! Liza Minnelli took his place. Rumor was that Sinatra and Dean had a falling out.

[quote]My God, can you imagine sitting in the front row of an intimate club and getting to listen to Ella Fitzgerald every night for a week?

[quote]Heaven.

Don't worry, we have your reservation.

See you soon.

I knew someone that met Dean Martin, and she said he was extremely nice. She said, he didn't care if you were the janitor or someone important. He would talk to everyone equally.

Also, my aunt went to one of Frank Sinatra's concerts back in the 1940's. She was just a teenager then. She said, they hired girls to faint at his concerts to build up his popularity.

Dean Martin had health issues and was not up to the tour and dropped out. Sinatra was pissed because he wanted to relive the old days. Sinatra was also suffering from some dementia by then (1988 or so) and was hardly his old self, forgetting words to songs,etc.

R201, you were "very young" in 1988? I cannot imagine where you get the other drivel in your post about Juliet Prowse being mixed race -- there were rumors, really? When, in 1960 when you were -18 years old?

R197/R204,

To say that someone is South African does not automatically mean that they are white. There are white and black South Africans. Secondly, why would you dismiss the rumour that she may have been of mixed race as drivel? Do you positively know that it's untrue?

Some years ago, Scorsese was planning "Dino" ,a bio film on Dean Martin. I'd rather see that than a Sinatra biopic.

Dean Martin seemed like a nice guy. When Monroe was to be replaced in the film Something's Got to Give with actress Lee Remick, who was fitted into Monroe's costumes and photographed with Cukor. Dean Martin had final approval of his leading lady, and refused to continue without Monroe. Fox relented and re-hired her.

To #201:

In addition to what the others posted about Dean dropping out of the show, he was also still mourning the death of his son, Dean Paul, whom he was very close to. He really just didn't have it in him at that point to perform night after night like the old days.

I read a book a looong time ago by some mobster. He mentioned Sinatra and Dean Martin. I remember him saying Martin was always a nice guy. He said Sinatra was often acted like a dick and "he has a lot of talent but no class."

R208, that's what's believed, that Dean completely fell apart when Dean Jr. was killed. I'm sure that's true, but Dean was not particularly *close* to any of his many children. He didn't pay much attention or spend time with them. This is according to the 1999 biography by William Schoell and I believe it -- he was like most fathers were at that time.

By all accounts, Dean Martin was a nice man. He was humble, cultured and a true gentleman. He and Jeanne had a good marriage for a long time. He was destroyed when Dino died in that plane crash and was never the same after that. That was the beginning of the end for him. OH, and his whole career was built on the "boozing" thing (post Lewis) but it was never booze in the glass. It was all an act. Like Jack Benny being cheap. An act.

Sinatra was much more volatile than Dean and it was always said that the ONLY person who was NOT in the least bit intimidated by Sinatra was Dean Martin. And Sinatra knew it. Big time. In fact, Martin intimidated HIM. And Frank Sinatra was a shit father to Frank, Jr. and a doting dad to his daughters. Big favoritism thing.

An actual gossip thread on DL.

Why was Sinatra intimidated by Martin?

I read somewhere that Dean Martin had a chance with Jackie, but told her "no." He was afraid of Kennedy.

What happened between Dean Martin and Jerry Lewis?

I thought Frank Jr. was gay.

I read that Dean Martin was seriously mob-connected independent of Frank.I also heard somwewhere tha Frank was just starting to get ahead, making the night club circuit, maybe still with Harry James and before Dorsey, when he met the Will Mastin Trio (Sammy Davis, his father and his Uncle) and when the kid suggested "maybe some day we can open for you, man!" the very young Sinatra never forgot it.

R197/R204, Actually I was probably about 14-15 when the Frank, Sammy Dean reunion Tour my mother had tickets for, happened. The family gossip around him at that time was about Julliette Prowse, a dancer.

You're a pretty antagonistic, person with a bad attitude. This is a fun gossipy thread. Are you off your meds? Bet you have lots of friends, right?

I still think Frank Jr was gay.

"He and Jeanne had a good marriage for a long time."

Sure, if you don't count his cheating. Yes, Martin drank a lot. The "booze" may not have really been in the glass, but Martin drank and smoked to excess like every Sinatra and every shopw biz guy in his age group.

Didn't Dino start out as an amateur boxer? He could have taken that skinny little Dago apart in two seconds, bodyguard or no.

That, and Martin's effortless charisma, may have been the reason he intimidated Sinatra.

Martin was good friends with Johnny Roselli, the hit man. But supposedly Martin, unlike Sinatra, wasn't interested in actually doing anything for the mob.

Martin was unique in Frank's circle in that he didn't suck up to him. The impression I got from reading about him was that it was the other way around, if anything. Sinatra was emotionally needy and Martin wasn't all that available. If he got tired of hanging out, even if he was at his own dinner party, he'd go off to his den and watch TV or whatever.

Nick Tosches's Dino: Living High in the Dirty Business of Dreams is really good.

Supposedly, Frank and Jackie slept together shortly after Onassis' death. I never bought that-from what I understand, she didn't like him, and he saw JFK when Bobby and Jackie weren't present.

He switched parties in 1970 because Jessie Unruh-the leader of the Democratic party in the late 60s in California-ran for governor against Reagan. Sinatra hated Unruh because he supported Sinatra's enemy, Bobby Kennedy, in 1968, instead of Hubert Humphrey.

For years, Frank had made fun of Reagan-he changed the words of "The Lady is a Tramp" during a show in the 60s to "Hate California/its Reagan and damp", and he repeatedly said Reagan was a dolt and a bore. He hated Jessie Unruh more, however, so suddenly he became pals with Ronald Reagan.

Another factor in his switch was the political winds in this country were shifting back to the Republicans at that time. Sinatra seemed to crave power more than anything else; that's why he was pals with the Kennedys and the Mafia.

Really? I always heard that Jackie hated Frank Sinatra,and he always tried to get into her pants.However, no chance because she thought he was bottom of the barrel?

So, a story goes that upon hearing that Frank was going to marry Mia, Ava said something like: "I always knew he would wind up with a young boy."

I wonder how true that is, because I can't imagine that Frank would have found it to be that humorous. Plus, if it is a true quote, what did Ava know about Frank that has never been talked about by anyone. Ava always struck me as being brutally honest when asked a question, so it has always intrigued me a bit. She was the one who was quoted as saying something like: "Frank is 120 pounds and 100 of those pounds is cock."

Yep, you’re right R219. With Ava, there was no BS. She hated BS and she said things exactly as they were. I remember someone said, she called the shots in her life who she wanted to go to bed with. She lived her life the way she wanted to. No man called the shots in her sex life. I remember reading that Frank paid for her bills and everything because at that point in her life she had no choice because she was broke. They always had a love hate relationship. Has anyone seen Ava's brownstone where she lived in London? Oh my gosh it was so elegant. She had beautiful taste, and it was filled with exquisite antiques. Most likely Frank paid for everything because she was broke.

That comment from Ava about Mia Farrow and Frank "ending up with a boy" is pretty famous. It doesn't mean anything about Frank's sexual proclivities, though, I don't think. Everyone teased each other about being "fags" in those days and Ava had the mouth of a sailor. It could have just been a funny dig at Sinatra. She had him wrapped around her little finger all her life and she knew it. It also could have been a comment of deeper meaning, having to do with Frank being such an emotional mess with regard to Ava. Maybe she thought him "weak" or troubled, which he was and in particular with regard to her. Maybe Ava was a bit jealous of Mia or wanted to assert some sort of superior stance to her by making that comment. By making that comment, it put both Mia AND Frank in their places.

Where might we find pictures of Ava's brownstone, R220?

Joey Bishop seems to be the most underrated of the Rat Pack, but he wrote lots of the funny material used by Frank and Dean in their acts. He had a great deadpan delivery and was actually handsome in an offbeat way.

Any gossip?

According to the Arlington Cemetery website, "Jacqueline Kennedy seemed to fall from grace as her year of mourning ended. She was photographed wearing a miniskirt; she was escorted to lunch and dinner and various social gatherings by prominent bachelors, including Frank Sinatra, Marlon Brando and Mike Nichols."

If Jackie hated Sinatra why would she bother with him after JFK was assassinated?

This is from an article about Jackie and Peter Cook: Jackie had liaisons throughout her unsatisfactory marriage and had a reputation as something of a scalp-hunter. She even bedded her husband's great procurer, Frank Sinatra.

I'm sorry r222 I forgot to indicate that. Her place was front cover of Architectural Digest. I don't remember the issue I think it was right after she died in 1990 but I forgot. Mainly this particular issue was on her London brownstone. I have a copy packed away somewhere in my garage.

Here's an interesting article about Sinatra's plane. It seemed to be a sort of shuttle for the rich and famous in the 60's.

What about Jimmy Rosselli, the other Italian singer from Hoboken NJ that Sinatra ruined because he was afraid of the competition?

R221, that quote of Ava's appeared in Rex Reed's 1969 book Do You Sleep In The Nude, and if you read it you'll realize that she was stark raving drunk.

Lou Monte was another one who got on Sinatra's bad side (though he recorded on Reprise, the Sinatra-owned label). But it's hard to imagine he would have a big career after "Pepino, the Italian Mouse" and "Twist Italiano" :

"Hey, Paisano! Twist Italiano, Who ho ho ho! Hey, Calabrese! Twist-a Like-a crazy, Who ho ho ho!"

I thought it was Davis who had an affair w/Kim Novak, and that Sam Cohn at Columbia had threats made on Davis' life to break them up.

Yes, Kim Novak. A few years ago, Novak went on Larry King and denied everything.

"Frank Sinatra had a big, beautiful, uncircumcised dick."

When Lana Turner found out that Ava Gardner was seeing Frank, she pulled her aside in the powder room at some Hollywood nightclub they were both at and tried to warn Ava that "there isn't a woman in Hollywood who hasn't cried on Frank's cock."

Funny thing. After Dean dies, his family wants us to believe that he always drank "apple juice". Ha!! Other said he really drank heavily. Personally, I believe he drank heavily.

I worked for a major talent agency in the early '70s. They told us that Martin rarely drank, was kind of a depressive. But that Perry Como drank a lot and was nearly always in the bag when he performed.

But they would only know if he drank at work...come cocktail hour it was a different story. Martin didn't spend much time at work. He learned his lines for his TV show on the drive over. That probably contributed to his easy & relaxed manner. Note Martin was from Steubenville Ohio yet talked in a Southern drawl. Besides Crosby, his singing idol was Harry Mills of the Mills Bros.

One of the best and most interesting threads on DL in a long time.

Carry on.

“I feel sorry for people who don't drink. They wake up in the morning and that's the best they're going to feel all day.” -Dean Martin

r 233: That surprises me about Perry Como. Always thought he was pretty quiet and normal. He was married to his one wife all his life and there was never any scandal about them. He was supposed to be a very sweet guy, too.

Very underrated singer, too. Beautiful voice.

"For years, Frank had made fun of Reagan-he changed the words of "The Lady is a Tramp" during a show in the 60s to "Hate California/its Reagan and damp", and he repeatedly said Reagan was a dolt and a bore. He hated Jessie Unruh more, however, so suddenly he became pals with Ronald Reagan." True--he changed the lyrics to "Nancy with the Laughing Face" to "Nancy with the Reagan Face." Barf.

more gossip.

Nancy Reagan was known to give the best head in Hollywood. I just assume that Frank was on the receiving end of some Nancy action a time or 20. The story is that Nancy was going to visit some people in Arizona and she was accompanied, in the car, by Peter Lawford and Robert Wagner. She allegedly sucked them both off all the way from California to Arizona, first one and then the other. A great time was had by all. Allegedly!

R240, It was Peter Lawford and Robert Walker. It wasn't Robert Wagner.

Anyone ever read Lawford's mother's biography "Mother Bitch"?

r240, where the hell did you hear that story? And who would have TOLD it? You think Wagner or Lawford bragged to anyone about it? Eww.

Dammit! Walker not Wagner. Thanks for the correction. The story allegedly came from Peter. I read it online somewhere a long time ago.

I think Peter Lawford needs his own thread. He seems to have been at the center of all the action.

Ava Gardner had a flat at 34 Ennismore Gardens in Kensington. It must have been really special inside because the outside is just an ordinary Kensington terrace.

R243, it was mentioned in Peter Lawford's autobiography that his last wife wrote back in the 80’s. Apparently Peter Lawford told his wife to write the book near the time of his death.

R242, I have that book, but I never finished it. In the parts I did read, she sounded completely nuts.

[quote]"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. They wake up in the morning and that's the best they're going to feel all day."

[quote]-Dean Martin

I'd always thought this quote was attributed to Frank Sinatra.

And Ava Gardner's quote about Frank ending up with a boy came after Mia Farrow had her hair cut off. Sinatra was mightily pissed about that.

"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. They wake up in the morning and that's the best they're going to feel all day."

Like his southern accent, that was just an ad for Martin's brand. He was a good businessman.

I can assure you if Peter Lawford and Robert WALKER were taking a road trip from Nevada to Cali or vice versa, they had no need of Nancy Reagan to suck them off.

Peter does deserve his own thread. And make sure we talk about his kinks. I heard he definitely had them.

I WANT TO HEAR ABOUT LAWFORD'S KINKS

I started a Lawford thread for you kinky bitches.

Has anyone bought the Frank Sinatra auction catalog of his estate? I heard there were some beautiful things.

He invited spencer and Kate to dinner then flew into a rage and through the undercooked pasta at his valet. They left quickly then he developed a crush on hepburn. Evil

Burying people alive in cement. Fucking enemies wives in front of them, making them watch against their will. Pushing guys off rooftops. Breaking bones to teach guys a lesson. Etc. etc.

I think he's tremendous!

He seemed like the kind of guy who'd pat you on the back and smile, just before hiring a contract killer to do you in.

BS R234, heavy drinkers lose their memory. He liked to project the image of a heavy drinker, but he was not.

No one could sing a ballad like Sinatra except maybe Streisand.

Actually it's true R77 that Sinatra was intact (uncut) and apparently large or since he was thin and had a lean body his penis which was probably 7-8 inches long looked huge.

"Sinatra was not a homophobe."

Sinatra was a homophobe with OUT homosexuals. He loved Cole Porter - married. He loved Lennie Hayton - married. etc etc. Montgomery Clift? Not much once he found out unmarried Clift was a homo.

R263, why do you assume that we don't know who Sammy Davis was? The whole world knows that Davis sang, danced and did impressions.

What would he have made of his gay son - Ronan?

He had the shit beaten out of George C. Scott after Scott beat up Ava. Told him he'd gave him killed if he laid a finger on Ava again. Of course, like a typical masochist, Ava went back to Scott for more.

How big was his cock. And why were there no Vpl pics?

(cough, cough)

Ronan.

R267, small, scrawny Sinatra didn't beat the shit out of anyone. He order his bodyguards or mob affiliates to take care of it.

Epic Rap Battles of History: Frank Sinatra versus Freddie Mercury.

R50 great post. Thanks for sharing it.

R199, that was Elvis, not Sinatra. Furthermore, the girl was not nude, nor was she a hooker. She was the girlfriend of one of his bodyguards. The woman dared to smart off to Elvis, calling him a "sonofabitch" whereupon Oedipal Elvis launched his pool cue at her like a javelin.

Sinatra supposedly had Bobby Fuller killed because he was dating one of his daughters.

One of Sinatra's men wrote a book in which he said he knocked on the door of a beautiful, glamorous actress who was waiting for Frank to arrive. If I recall correctly she made a comment Frank did not like, so once the guy brought the food in, he took the dish of food and threw it at her, on her, all over her.

Whoever the starlet/star was, she was not identified. I believe this took place in the 1960's.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

I recall reading in the Kitty Kelly book that he threw a drunk Judy Garland through a glass sliding door - ? Or was that someone else.

I read a biography of Frank written by his valet. Now I guess the publishers told the valet the stuff to emphasize, because the title may as well have been "Frank Sinatra's huge dick." Still, it was hilarious. The valet claims Frank Sinatra's dick was so big, it was like a third leg. He also says that there were H'wood ladies, like Judy Garland, who used Frank as a stud service long past their own sell-by date (Judy Garland wanted him to fuck her way past her adorable stage). The valet said Monroe wanted to marry Frank, but he wouldn't marry her because she was a pig. Said she was also a drunk, but Frank didn't care about that part, but her being a slob, he did care about.

The valet made a bunch of interesting points. One was, Sinatra didn't care how old a woman was - he hit on, proposed to, propositioned women way older than he was, even in middle age (women who had status or something he admired) as well as younger woman. He compares Mia Farrow to Kate Moss, says she was hot, and says Mia was obsessed with having the kids of famous artists.

But the main point is, Frank was a lonely man, but the real problem was, he wanted his loneliness pacified by only the most perfect woman around. He wanted her to have the most perfect face, the most perfect body, and also have status in Hollywood or society. So it's not like the poor guy was lonely and hollow, wishing for someone to love. Basically, he was lonely and hollow, wishing he had somebody filthy rich, long-legged, perfect face, tons of status, to love him.

Another thing - the valet suspects that Frank Sinatra fucked his (the valet's) wife. I see this as a common thread in the rat pack era. I think they were all a lot of repressed gays, one-upping each other. I've read Joe Kennedy tried to fuck his son's girlfriends, and Ted Kennedy tried to fuck his friends' wives and girlfriends.

It reads as way less glamorous once you're middle aged (as I am now).

Not only was Sinatra a lonely man, he was a fucking bitch.

Many of the valet's stories have been exposed as bullshit.

His huge member has been documented, but that would only hinder unpaid female companionship.

Why would Sinatra's huge member "hinder" unpaid female companionship?

I can believe the valet's stories were mostly bullshit - the book may as well have been titled, "Frank Sinatra's huge dick, as well as the dicks of other famous guys, and myself."

But, I do believe Frank WAS that picky/judgmental about women (i.e. - this one's body is great, don't like her face, this one's face is great, legs are sub-par). I believe he was lonely not because he lacked love, but because he was a prick who wanted love to come in some egocentric, perfect form.

Read again. Many were exposed as bullshit -- not most or mostly. The rest of what you wrote in post #2 is repetitious.

"Frank Sinatra's huge dick" and all the fascination about it comes from men, not women. Straight and gay men. Women do not pick men for the size of their penis.

Sinatra was supposed to be 7 to 8 inches soft and 10 when fully erect.

Sarcasm doesn't translate onto datalounge posts.

Carry on...

He's mentioned in almost all of the book threads so I thought I'd bump this up.

Documentary about evil Frank.