I’m Watching Paris Is Burning— AGAIN

Which two young boys? There are a lot of them in this film. Can you tell us what's the substance of what they say?

The 13 and 14 year old gay boys. The 13 year old lives in the Bronx with his Mom. The other one says he has no mother, that she’s gone. They’re in front of the theatre at 2:15 AM, drinking orange soda.

These 2.

I’m sobbing now. It’s an incredible documentary— absolutely spectacular. But, Jesus Christ, it’s heartbreaking.

What does the subject matter entail? What does it have to do with France?🇫🇷

why would they be dead? because they were poor?

Because it was 40 years ago and they’re impossibly young and kids out at 2 AM in NYC have to find a way to survive. And, you know, AIDS.

Paris is burning was released in 1990. Safe sex was routine by mid 1980s. Not saying people didnt get HIV after the mid 80s but you shouldn't assume the worst, MARY

It was filmed in 1987, cunt.

And nothing says likely to have perfect adherence to using a condom every time like an underparented 13 old turning tricks.

I want to know what was happening behind them that caused the director to cut away so fast.

Their clip often comes up on IG and TikTok. According to the comments, at least one is still alive.

They probably overdosed long ago. Two bottoms without a future.

R13, you’re an asshole.

Have you watched Mississippi Burning?

Some of the absolute most repulsive DataLounge users have found this thread.

Yes, R8, because the Black community was a massive priority for public health messaging in 1987.

#sarcasm

I haven't watched it for awhile, but it takes on a whole new meaning when you know the future fate of some of the included individuals.

Life in funny.

R8, the “leads” in the film are all dead.

I WENT to balls in the 1980s. And Escuelita, And Sallys. I was a white guy, post college. And I met working class black guys and we FUCKED and nobody barebacked me or asked for bareback or assumed bareback or tried stealth barebacking.

I do however respect the observation that hustlers may not have been given a choice. And drug users get messy. And 13 yos naive.

The assumption of tragic ends for ghetto kids and crying over such, very publicly and melodramatically in a thread in 2025 followed by old gay men, is a bit rich for my blood.

Why did all the queens hate the movie and the director afterwards? It seemed an accurate portrayal.

R20, I’m not crying over the kids (though their innocence is bittersweet). I’m crying because all this joy and expression was happening at a time of great plague and despair.

And Venus. A shocking development. A heartbreaking development.

Also, GFY. I called myself MARY in the first thread. Your attempt to embarrass me failed. Cunt.

Didn’t most of the cast die from AIDS?

Where can you watch this? Is “The Ball”, “The Queen” and “I Hate New York” as potent? They’re at least on Tubi.

Im not trying to embarrass you rather suggest you chill on the maudlin, poverty porn hysterics. It's not respectful, though you seem to think it is.

R23, not exactly. V was murdered. Octavia had HIV/Aids but died of cancer in 2009. Pepper died of if Disbetes. Willi, Dorian, and Angie died of AIDS.

Jenny Livingston and Alek Keshishian got a lot of press for their documentaries in 1990-91 but never did much if anything notable afterward.

You actually are, R25— but it isn’t working. Why not just SAY that instead of being the herpetic, pus-addled cunt you’ve revealed yourself to be.

I was at NYU in 87. And this film really takes you back.

But fuck your self-righteousness. Turn off your computer abd go find authentic live, you. Soulless cunt.

I don’t know if any other film or documentary that respects the dreams of its subjects, even as you understand how unrealistic these dreams are. It’s genuinely moving.

What R29 said. And is it “maudlin” to feel stuff because (the truth is) they did almost all die too soon?

Only if you’re a soulless cunt looking to take advantage of, say, a poster’s vulnerability.

Disney really should animate this property. I thought about this after watching “Gay Purr-ee” recently, the unique look at prostitution in the feline underworld in turn of the century France.

The Furballs?

There's an interesting documentary about the murdered trans woman from Paris is Burning,: "I'm Your Venus."

Venus Xtravaganza's family reconstructs her life and death.

Thank you, R34. I had no idea. I’ll make a point of watching.

FYI - there's a documentary on Tubi about Venus's brothers trying to investigate the murder and to have his name permanently changed on his death record to reflect him being a woman.

Venus wasn't homeless - he lived with his grandmother (or great aunt? I cant remember) in Jersey City and his brothers and family lived across the street. He had family and a home.

I used to see Angie Xtravaganza and many of the Xtravaganza crew out at clubs - several were nodding off from heroin, including David. I recall Angie slapping David across the face for many minutes trying to wake him up. (David's the 'butch' one who got in an argument about wearing a woman's fur coat instead of a man's fur coat in a ball.)

R21 - nobody hated the film or the director. I don't know where people got that idea from. The film ran nonstop for MONTHS in NYC - it was a sensation.

The major criticism were from people involved in the film who thought since it's playing so much, they should receive a lot of money from the film. They didn't know that films get SOLD and Livingston herself only got $15k or something like that from the film.

She gave them whatever money she could. All they could see was that this is a 'hit' film and that they should get some money from it - but that's not how it works.

They DID get a lot of invites to functions and had their own small fame for awhile. And I don't believe Dorian died from AIDS - it was a heart attack IIRC. Remember they show him doing coke in the film - that's not great for your heart when you're overweight, smoker and in your 50s already.

Then they found that mummified dead man in Dorian's apartment that had gone missing many years prior. Not sure what went down - but I believe Dorian may have killed him in self defense or it was an overdose. The guy who was found didn't exactly have a stunning reputation and was an ex-con.

The film is a classic and stands up today. It's heartbreaking when you see the categories of businessman, college student, military, etc. And Dorian and the cast provide profound and very true explanations for everything.

It shocked people when it came out - the raw truth of it all - from a gay perspective, a black/Latino perspective, a lower-class perspective living in one of the world's richest cities.

Touch this skin honey

Years ago, when I lived in Virginia, I went to Blockbuster to rent it. The clerk defiantly said, "We don't carry that!"

I had to go a small local video store to rent it instead,

I love this movie. It’s heartbreaking what many of these people had dealt with and were dealing with but they were also inspiring. They were all such vibrant unique people.

R36 what’s it called?

R40 - I'm Your Venus.

Did they find Venus’ killer?

R42 - yes and no. You'll have to watch the film. (Although, I will say the Venus documentary drags on aimlessly - it's like they had to make it a certain length and kept dragging it out.)

Funny - I just looked up the run time and it is only 71 minutes long. There's a fucking LOT in that 71 minutes.

I remember seeing it in a small art theater in Soho in like February - maybe an 80 seat theater max. It has just opened the previous weekend and it was packed.

Then it grew and it played in many larger theaters in NYC throughout the year. There were signs for it wheat pasted all over the city for months and months.

R8 I always like hearing people who lived through the 80s and epidemic.

It does make sense. A lot of the famous figures who died most likely caught it when it wasn’t such an outbreak and surely people were savvy enough by the mid-80s to be scared of it.

I mean late 80s gay porn had condom use.

The Dorian comment about “if you shoot an arrow and it goes real high, hooray for you” is one of the most inspirational /meaningful life quotes I’ve come across. A succinct, nonjudgmental rejection of the “success” focused culture of the US. True wisdom - from true survivors.

Completely agree, r45. I first saw "Paris Is Burning" in 1991. 34 years later, Dorian's quote is still a profound comment on navigating this life without hubris. Some arrows never even leave the quiver...and it's OK.

It’s not the William Holden movie?

"Nobody hated the film or the director"

I always get a little uptight, and want to defend this film and Jenny when questioned because it is so important.

The truth is that f it wasn’t for Jenny and the dynamic she created when she met them in Central Park voguing that summer, NONE of their lives and such important stories would be caught on film. This would be such a terrible thing because it was a beacon of hope to me and so many others that came of age during the AIDS crisis. I realized as a young gayling coming of age that there were others like myself, a tribe I could seek out, and is one of the primary reasons I moved to NYC.

It’s important to understand that it has been proven TIME AND TIME AGAIN when you add racial disparity to great storytelling, you risk losing the very essence or message you are trying to portray . There’s NO way any of it would’ve been made back then as anything other than a documentary by Jenny’s studied hand. Her pioneering and youthful approach set the backbone of a production that could’ve derailed so easily in another more experienced or yes, other race because they would’ve either tried to smooth out the edges or portray them differently (i’m looking at you, Tyler Perry). Jenny was quiet, respectful, and got out of the way so that they had a clean stage to perform on.

The film was embroiled in controversy that it Jenny was a white Jewish girl that produced it and people felt it did a disservice to Blacks that they had no editing, control or royalties over the end result. The controversy overshadowed the fact that it truly was a labor of love and took her over four years on a shoestring budget to finish.

The UNSUNG hero in the story was her uncle Alan J. Pakula. Pakula, known for films like All the President's Men and Klute, was a mentor to Livingston and encouraged her to make her first film. He also opened doors in the film industry for a film about marginanlized people was able to barely squeak it through the pipeline and sat through plenty of board meetings, advocating, fighting and defending it to get it to happen.

[quote] It’s important to understand that it has been proven TIME AND TIME AGAIN when you add racial disparity to great storytelling, you risk losing the very essence or message you are trying to portray…

Translation: don’t make white people uncomfortable by bringing up race…I see you.

I still get it confused with Is Paris Burning? (1966).

R50, it was the early 90’s where film production boardrooms were predominately white.

There simply wasn’t the media infrastructure, attitude or diversity in place to develop or drive to produce alternative/queer Black content like PIB, even established networks like BET would’ve flatly turned it down. Jenny herself said there were other Black and Latinx documentaries that couldn’t find audiences interested enough to find funding.

My discomfort has to do with today’s ever judging gaze- looking into the past and trying to justify that somehow us future folk could’ve done it far better- rather than simply accepting smaller progress along the way. It was NOT a breakout hit, but grew word of mouth and organically. The early 90’s were NOT a progressive time.

It really was a miracle that PIB saw the light of day, and a lot of unseen, underappreciated behind the scenes effort by folks of every color. The making of the movie is just as interesting (see below)

“It’s always surprising for anybody to see a story that has nothing to do with you, yet has everything to do with you. And that is the power of storytelling in cinema.” -Jenny Livingston

Ain't shit on Tubi about no Venus

I saw the Venus documentary too. May have been Hulu? It is a great remembrance of a time and place and person. Much credit due to the family who was willing to face/admit the darker side but honored her and loved her by participating I this doc - and keeping her memory alive. None of them were saints - but there was a great message of love, dreams and perseverance in their lives.

No one else is a saint either, but dem queens were shifty as fuck. Going to the fast food place to eat without paying. I used to know a couple of guys in San Diego who were into voguing and they would come to the bars broke as hell…they’d get their drink on by taking other people’s drinks and tips when they weren’t looking. I watched two of them get escorted out of Club West Coast. Is that place still there?

Oh hunny, them NYC white boys were just as bad! I hung with a swarthy otter of a boy that’d give you a BJ behind the club curtain, a tranny that would combine half drunk cocktails together, and roam the couches looking for drugs and wallets. Some of the club kids were just as tragic as any character drawn out of a Dicken’s novel, and so cunning about how they maneuvered the scene, chasing cock and drugs.

Remember, there were no smartphones or apps!

The absolute shade of it all!

Any good books about this scene you guys can recommend?

Dorian Corey was my favorite part of this documentary.

R48 - did you even read what you linked? Some pissed off young non-binary or whatever who wasn't even born when this film came out is demanding justice for their perception of under-representation at some event in Brooklyn.

Then, like always - they shift toward the film and want to be the martyr they always make themselves into being.

That doesn't mean all queens hated the film or the director.

If one thing has shown us in the past 10 years - some people will shit all over anything because it doesn't do exactly what THEY want. It's just one loud, obnoxious voice. It doesn't represent the majority at all.

Thanks OP. I just watched this for the first time for free on YT. All these years I passed over it just thinking oh it's just about drag queens. It's about so much more. I wish I had a "house" I was part of.