Malcolm Gladwell: I was a coward to say born-men have a space in women’s sport

People are waking the fuck up.

Good for Malcolm for admitting that he hasn't changed his mind but, rather, he never believed it. That's pretty ballsy. Too bad he didn't have the strength to admit what he thought at the time, though. Many people got "cancelled" for standing up for what they believed and he just took the easy route.

I was today years old when I realised that, like Fall Out Boy’s Pete Wentz, Malcolm Gladwell’s hair is not, indeed, a Jewfro.

[quote] Good for Malcolm for admitting that he hasn't changed his mind but, rather, he never believed it.

And most people, if they are honest, are the same.

There’s not a fine line between accepting trans folk and making a good attempt to respect pronouns which most polite people will do, and believing it is fair and equitable for transwomen and biological female to compete against each other in football or sprint races, which we are supposed to believe that most people do. There’s a gap the size of the Grand Canyon.

[quote] People are waking the fuck up.

Unfortunate choice of verb...

I have considerable sympathy with the trans movement, but I can't fathom how anyone could think trans women should be competing against other women. However, it has always been a difficult issue of how to define and certify who is a women in sport,. There are conditions that cause atypical genetic or physical profiles and some of these are more common among athletes as a result of the advantage they confer in competitions.

Do people not realize they negate everything they say or write by using the idiotic phrase "assigned female at birth"?

We are not ASSIGNED our gender! Gender is a chromosomal certainty at the moment of conception! Your gender is literally who you are, not an assigned quality like wearing a Yankees cap rather than a Red Sox cap!

How are people so stupid?

[quote]People are waking the fuck up.

[quote]Unfortunate choice of verb...

Are?

Now he should analyze and discuss how a movement came to exercise such a level of intimidation that he was goaded into publicly lying.

And why major figures such as JK Rowling and Dave Chappelle never fell in line despite not only bullying and endless libel, but threats of rape and murder (Rowling) and an onstage assault (Chappelle).

R8, waking is the present progressive form of wake, the verb that lends itself to the past form and now adjective WOKE, which presently has negative connotations thanks to over-reaching activism such as practiced by TRAs.

Essentially, people like Gladwell have to wake up from being woke.

This is the panel in 2022 with sports scientist Ross Tucker in which Gladwell hosted and said he was cowed by the trans arguments.

And about 1 minute into this video is Gladwell’s mea culpa of sorts

[quote]Do people not realize they negate everything they say or write by using the idiotic phrase "assigned female at birth"? We are not ASSIGNED our gender! Gender is a chromosomal certainty at the moment of conception! Your gender is literally who you are, not an assigned quality like wearing a Yankees cap rather than a Red Sox cap! How are people so stupid

Certainly not as vastly stupid as you. I seriously doubt any chromosomal test was performed on you at birth, and it's likely you have never had one. Sex is assigned based on what you looked to be or what they thought they could credibly turn you into (if you were one the rare people whose sex was ambiguous at birth). And, then, after birth into childhood and adulthood, we determine the sex of a person in everyday circumstances on the basis of what they tell us their sex is. In legal circumstances we very occasionally determine it based on the birth certificate. It is almost unheard of to determine sex based on a chromosome test.

There has never been a single case in my life where my sex was identified by anyone based on knowledge of my chromosomes nor have I ever determined someone sex based on their chromosomes. I would be astonished if that weren't also the case for you.

R13, you either have a dick it a pussy. The end.

The troons are losing everywhere.

At least he has some personal insight. Still can't stand him and I still think he sucks despite having finally reaching a correct conclusion on this one obvious issue

*reached

[quote]you either have a dick it a pussy. The end.

Thanks for confirming the idiocy of the claim that chromosomes determine our sexual identity and you are now proposing a standard based on the external appearance of the body, as I indicated is how sex is assigned.

I assume you have a theory of how we handle the cases (admittedly rare in general society but significantly more common in female athletic competitions) when people have ambiguous genitalia or whose secondary sex characteristics are at odds with their chromosome. (For example, androgen insensitivity, in which the child is XY but develops much more like a female. I assume you were being jokey when saying everyone has one kind of genital or the other. I would not assume you are that stupid.)

Once you inform us on those cases, I think we can tie down a policy approach! Thanks!

[quote] Now he should analyze and discuss how a movement came to exercise such a level of intimidation that he was goaded into publicly lying.

It’s the same power that forced the Harry Potter stars to denounce Rowling regardless of what they may actually believe. If they didn’t, they would never work in front of a camera again.

Believing that you need to have a position on trans women in sports—an “issue“ that affects very few people and is of slight consequence to society—is just taking the right-wing bait to gin up their culture war.

It affects all women who play sports, so I don’t quite buy that r20.

ALL women R20? How so, exactly?

Last December the president of the NCAA testified that of 500,000 NCAA college student athletes, 10 were trans.

Exactly. Whatever you think of the trans issue, it is almost certainly never going to have any practical effect on the lives of all but the teeniest minority of the people who are obsessed by it.

Laurel Hubbard won gold in the Pacific Games, beating 2 Samoan women.

The Pacific Islands are the poorest nations in the world with the most hunger.

Winning gold for the host country would have brought meaningful change to the lives of these women, but a middle-aged white NZ man was allowed to compete in their category, thereby beating every single female weightlifter out of all those nations.

So yes. It affects all women competing.

I don't think many of us are denying the issue has a very material effect on elite athletes. That does not change the fact that virtually none of the people obsessed with this issue will ever be affected by it in the slightest. The world is not made up of elite Samoan athletes.

JK Rowling eviscerating Gladwell’s mea culpa.

To confirm that it's a weird emotional obsession that motivates most of this concern, you need only look at R24. Yes, I think it is ridiculous and grossly unfair that trans woman compete in women's athletics but the issue barely concerns to me or 99.9 percent of the world. Yet, R24, in surveying all of the horrible and unfair things that happen worldwide and in the US that affect billions of people, cites the plight of two Samoan athletes as justification for the absolutely obsessive attention the trans issue receives. This is clearly only explicable as a psychological abnormality.

Rowling’s full tweet, in case you don’t want to open the X link at r26:

Gladwell’s career wouldn’t have been destroyed if he’d spoken out against the glaring unfairness, not to mention dangers, of allowing men to compete in women’s sport. He’d have faced loss of approval from the cultural elite and received activist blowback, and even that wouldn’t have come with the tsunami of death and rape threats women face when they speak.

Non-famous people, mostly women, girls and gay people, have genuinely had their careers and indeed lives destroyed for saying what Gladwell was too pusillanimous to say, and Gladwell didn’t lift a finger in their defence. Like many well-known liberals, he was happy to watch members of the great unwashed bullied, traduced and defamed, fine with the erosion of freedom of speech, comfortable with young women being robbed of sporting honours and facing serious injury, because he valued his own standing and security more highly than acting on the feeble promptings of his conscience.

A rash of condescending men will swarm my mentions when I post this to tell me I should be pleased about Gladwell’s cautious backtracking. No. He hasn’t changed. He’s merely sensed a shift in what it’s acceptable to say and feels safe to align himself with the new consensus, excuses for his previous behaviour to the fore. He isn’t an ally, he’s a weathervane.

Changing sides years late, and only after you’ve realised the non-elite opposition is winning, isn’t a mark of integrity but of arse-covering. Those whose overriding focus is remaining in good odour with the in crowd can never be trusted. Gender identity ideology has been the modern arts world’s McCarthyism, and all Gladwell’s done is reveal himself as a man who’d have named names, but felt a bit uncomfortable about it afterwards.

So, r22, half a million people should take a back seat to less than a dozen?

God, what a psycho Rawling is, regardless of what you think of the trans issue. You'd think Gladwell was recanting his support for the Holocaust. What must life be like to spend every day of your life thinking about the trans issue with the intensity dialed up to 11?

[quote] —Waking is a gerund.

Actually, in this instance "waking" is not a gerund.

It is a part of the present participial form "are waking," which indeed functions as the verb in that sentence.

"Non-famous people, mostly women, girls and gay people, have genuinely had their careers and indeed lives destroyed for saying what Gladwell was too pusillanimous to say, and Gladwell didn’t lift a finger in their defence."

No, they didn't. It's trans people who are being victimized by the right. But conservatives like to think of themselves as victims while victimizing others

"So, R22, half a million people should take a back seat to less than a dozen?"

They're not taking a backseat. Most have never even met a trans athlete

I love her. And that’s a great tweet

You guys laughed at Malcolm Gladwell and said his books were dumb and overrated....now you have to pretend to like him for siding with the right

Just like you demonized JK Rowling for "promoting witchcraft to kids"....then you had to pretend to like her for being transphobic

Who will conservatives pretend to like next week?

Isn't she a writer? That's pretty poor writing. I suppose she was in a state of hysteria.

NOW, a confession!

R34, hilarious. Datalounge was flooded with threads about JK Rowling promoting witchcraft?

Get with it R37. Witchcraft is second only to the trans issue in its threat to modern life.

I like that r34 excoriates everyone on Datalounge ("you guys") as if we all had the exact same opinion back in the day (or at any time).

But I guess to r34 we're just thought of by r34 as the voices in his head.

This thread will end in tears.

God, the Twitter profile pic of Rowling. I can't even begin to speculate what she was born as.

I guess the idea that trans women who experienced puberty as males, retain significant advantages such as increased muscle mass and bone density that those born female do not have. From what I understand, even hormone therapy does not reverse these biological advantages that athletes who went through puberty as males possess.

So what is the argument to counter that? I am asking sincerely. Maybe we just need to create categories in sports that separate those with a certain level of muscle mass, bone density and size of heart and lungs instead of gender? However the fuck would that work.

I avoid these conversations because they feed right wing rhetoric and (because the Democrats have been so weak on the issue) But the REASON the Democrats are weak on the argument ( if not the issue) is the SAME REASON I don't discuss it. We don't have an effective counter argument beyond the lame " how many trans people are there in women's sports anyway" which only fuels the notion that we are weak and the fascists are the party of common sense.

I've not heard a counter to the concern that puberty confers an irreversible advantage for trans athletes. So I am all ears. But damn, it doesn't make sense to me why we can't acknowledge trans people in the way they identify and support their rights but still understand that in terms of athletics, you have to compete with the gender you were GIVEN, not "ASSIGNED" at birth.

Trans overreached with women's sports. Simple as that.

It was obvious to any bio male who has ever played a sport with a bio female. And any bio female who has ever played sports with bio males.

And anyone who has eyes.

The mental gymnastics to try and justify it was such an epic waste of time.

Trans should NEVER have fought so hard for something so wrong. It really destroyed any goodwill they had with the larger population. It came across as bullying.

I want trans to have all the rights and protections that we all get. But, for the love of god, quit barking up this tree!

Exactly. It seems like the athletics issue is one area where Democrats could more universally depart from trans orthodoxy without being anti-trans in general.

R18 = Troon sho needs to go dilate his wound.

Oh, dear me. The wit! The intellect!

[quote]Trans overreached with women's sports.

They overreached when they went after children and when they tried to claim that humans were butterflies. They are mentally ill. Period. They have body dysmorphia aside from dysphoria. They are cutters. 99% of them have autism and they rank off the scales when it comes to narcissism. TikTok also plays a hand in this. The medical community is going to be sued out of existence in the next 30 years for what they did to young people.

When it comes to the left on this issue, they screamed Believe the Science while denying biology.

The majority of these people are gay and lesbian.

Trans ideology is both misogynistic and homophobic.

[quote]99% of them have autism

R47 is on top of the figures!!!

R18, I'd be interested in your counter to the argument that trans women who have experienced puberty as a male, retain significant biological advantages over women who did not experience puberty as a male.

Assuming you agree and or concede this is the case, how would you address those advantages from a policy point of view.

In short, Gladwell had no balls.

He's insufferable and not very smart.

This goes far beyond males in women’s sports.

It’s an Orwellian mindfuck. If one opposes the linguistic mandates, questions the fairness in sports (listen to the threats that’s female athletes received from their universities when they objected), raises the issue of safety in female spaces like shelters or prisons, disputes the affirmation-only model at the expense of investigating other mental issues (trans shooters) , suggests that preaching gender dogma to four-year-old children isn’t beneficial, or points out the falsities arising in crime statistics (see link) that person has faced accusations of being rightwing and fascist.

But it’s not working so well anymore. Some are still trying (hi r20, r32, and r34!), but more and more people have grown weary of and wise to the ideological manipulation.

[quote]This goes far beyond males in women’s sports.

No, it doesn't. Ninety-nine percent of us probably never encounter the trans issue in our whole lives. There was the famous case some years about a crime being excusable because the perpetrator was a victim of "affluenza". The fact that you found some nutcase in Lancashire excusing a crime on the basis that the perpetrator is trans isn't going to blind us to the fact that you have a weird psychological fixation on this issue.

The “it doesn’t affect you so there’s no need to discuss it” gaslighting/argument that R55/trans troll makes doesn’t seem to be working. An issue doesn’t have to affect you directly personally to have an opinion or a concern about it. But yeah it does affect gay men and lesbians, as support for LGB issues have declined since trans issues took center stage and people were too scared or bullied into silence when questions were raised about it. The “there’s no debate” “be kind” “trans women are women” points have been dismantled and blown up in the faces of TRA’s.

R42 World Aquatics had an open category for trans athletes to compete last year. Not one entered.

The fact that FTM (female to male) athletes that competed in the male category after transitioning were almost all dead last and not close to being competitive as men should’ve been the end of the debate.

Like fly paper to the yahoos.

[quote] that [R55]/trans troll

She’s posted 15 times already on this thread, and counting, as she continues her obsession with the issue and trying to claim that it’s actually others (!) who should comment less.

Gladwell is highly overrated as a "thinker".

[quote]The “it doesn’t affect you so there’s no need to discuss it” gaslighting/argument that [R55]/trans troll makes doesn’t seem to be working.

It isn't working because that isn't what people aren't arguing. The argument is that it DOESN'T AFFECT ANYONE, relatively speaking. If you had some literacy, you would notice that argument has been made clear repeatedly here. So, again, you obsession with trans issues is rooted in something weird in your brain, not in the materiality of the issue.

No one is born as a man.

Is this another retarded terf thread???

I thought they were locked out of DL…

R61. It's good in a way that we have several active trans threads at one time. It keeps the anti-trans loons from polluting other threads with their stupidity and psychosis.

The problem R62 is that they want to turn this gay website into Kiwi farms and the obsessed frau lounge.

They clearly are in need of psychotherapy and psychiatric meds.

Gender ideology is Orwellian.

Troon Troll can’t take the heat.

[quote]Sex is assigned based on what you looked to be or what they thought they could credibly turn you into ...

Papa Tooney, we got a looney!

I suggest custodial care, or at least filing for disability.

[quote]Last December the president of the NCAA testified that of 500,000 NCAA college student athletes, 10 were trans.

It's still wrong!

Oh are people still saying terf

What year is it

[quote]So what is the argument to counter that? I am asking sincerely. Maybe we just need to create categories in sports that separate those with a certain level of muscle mass, bone density and size of heart and lungs instead of gender?

We have that already. We have a category for women. Women l are a protected class in sports because women’s sports would cease to exist if there was a single open category. Swimming, cycling and boxing require a DNA passport of sorts. One test via cheek swab prior to competing.

[quote]I've not heard a counter to the concern that puberty confers an irreversible advantage for trans athletes.

… Do you watch sports? For instance, have you seen what female gymnasts do and then watch male gymnasts? Have you seen how each sex excel in quite different ways on different apparatus? Do you watch tennis? Serena Williams, who is constantly mocked for her “masculine body”, has a serve speed 20% slower than that of comparable men.

Looking at populations:

The average adult male height globally: 175cm The average shoulder width for men is 41-51 cm The men's long course 50m freestyle world record: 20.89s The world record for the men's 100m sprint is 9.58s

The average female height globally: 163cm The average shoulder width for women is 36 to 46cm. The women's long course 50m freestyle, the record is 23.61s The women's 100m world record for the 100m sprint is 10.49s. (Flo-Jo, so take that with a grain of salt).

Idiot terf still haven’t learnt that the stats she provides are USULESS in this discussion, since trans and intersex women ARE NOT cis men.

People with Differences Of Sex Development are a different conversation to transwomen who have either undergone puberty or not (ie, men). People with DSDs are their own group and should not be shoveled in to a category with transwomen for the purposes of accuracy.

I don’t think there is even one trans troll posting on this thread. There are almost no posts supporting trans doctrine. There is a wealth of comments gawking at the mind-boggling stupidity of most of the people posting anti-trans positons.

Not really trans troll/r70 trans women are men and intersex/DSD people didn’t ask you to use them to justify being trans. 99.918 newborns sex is correctly observed at birth. People with intersex/DSD conditions are still male or female as their conditions are sex specific. There is no third sex despite what the trans loon at r70 says.

This thread has devolved into a weird incoherence

Okay. Based on your clinical practice, Is a person with androgen insensitivity syndrome make or female? And XXY? Thanks!

R13 - because assigning gender is like assigning race, except with a lot fewer choices and mixes.

It's physically obvious. Again, in some rare occasions, the chromosomes may not be aligned with the sex - which may be 1 in 1000 or even more rare than that.

It's a disingenuous argument to say that due to these rare anomalies, that it is a false and prejudicial act to 'assign sex at birth' based on appearance.

There's nothing discriminatory or offensive about the practice at all.

R75. You really can’t read, can you? The whole point of the post, as is very clear, is that sex is assigned based on appearance. You really needn’t have typed any of that.

I wonder if the trans advocates whose arguments rely on the supposed variations in chromosomal markers would undergo blood testing to see if there is a link between gender identity and genetics.

You mean Klinefelter syndrome r75? They are male.

People sneering at “2 Samoan” athletes ask for examples and when they receive it, they scoff.

Those two women are the best female weightlifters in the entire Pacific. Therefore, Laurel Hubbard had an unfair advantage over every single Pacific athlete competing in that weight category. It’s not just 2 Samoans. That is thousands of women weightlifters over numerous nations.

It’s all the girls in Connecticut losing races by 10m to two teen transwomen. Not the other girls who would have placed, but all of them are now on an uneven playing field.

R79. And how do you know that? And why did you not answer the other question. I would assume you would know the answer.

[quote]. People sneering at “2 Samoan” athletes ask for examples and when they receive it, they scoff.

What was requested was evidence the trans is an important issue to any other than a small number of people. So, yes, when that answer came it was scoffed at as evidence of enormous stupidity.

I am wondering if you truly don’t understand and if there is a way I can make the point clearer for you or if your scoffing indicates you are a bad actor in this conversation.

The evidence presented proves that transwomen playing sports as women doesn’t affect the 2 women, it affects all women athletes. Do you not realise how state and international competition works? Laurel Hubbard competed at an international level event beating every single woman in her weight category in NZ to be there, then every single woman in her weight category in the entire Pacific. The Connecticut runners broke state records beating every teenage girl in their age category.

I very well understand what you typed, which is why you got the response you got.

Androgen insensitivity syndrome can happen to males or female r81, but you knew that. Next question. Also this has zilch to do with Malcolm Gladwells comments about trans women athletes.

Show us the third gamete.

You didn't answer how you know how 47 XXY is male. And how do you know if someone with androgen insensitivity is male or female. We are still waiting.

If it doesn't have anything to do with this thread, I'm not sure why you made claims about it. I guess you stupidly thought it did.

NEXT MONTH: "Why we reluctantly cut short our month-long trip to Stonehenge"

It’s a condition that only happens in males r86. AIS can happen in males and females. Maybe quit using people with genetic abnormalities as they didn’t asked to be included as your buffer to prove that you were born in the wrong body.

The trans loon is grasping at straws.

[quote] Last December the president of the NCAA testified that of 500,000 NCAA college student athletes, 10 were trans.

And they all broke world records!

You haven't the slightest idea what you are talking about.

[quote]Maybe quit using people with genetic abnormalities as they didn’t asked to be included as your buffer to prove that you were born in the wrong body.

Maybe quit introducing the idea sex is chromosomal into the thread then and then objecting to its introduction once you are shown to be a fool.

R91 - sex IS chromosomal. That's how the two sexes start as being different.

R88. We are not pro-trans. We are anti-you

So sick of this trans shit. Jesus Christ .

[quote] I very well understand what you typed, which is why you got the response you got.

So you are a bad actor. Got it.

The people on this thread with an agenda want us to say we can’t prove what a woman is for sporting purposes by conflating persons with DSDs with transwomen.

It’s a common tactic.

Neither do you R90. The Y chromosome in your link never developed genetically. Klinefelter syndrome Is when the Y chromosome did develop, so these people are classified as male. Someone who is XX with a Y chromosome that never activated or developed genetically is a female.

Males have 3 pubertys. One in the womb, one shortly after they are born and the “big” one that occurs as preteen or young teen.

Someone born with a leg or a hand deformity where one is missing or underdeveloped doesn’t disprove that humans have two hands and two legs.

Thank you for that lengthy irrelevance.

[quote] We have that already. We have a category for women. Women l are a protected class in sports because women’s sports would cease to exist if there was a single open category. Swimming, cycling and boxing require a DNA passport of sorts. One test via cheek swab prior to competing

Yeah, I know. My question was directed to address the assertion that self Identifying as a gender other than the one you are born with entitles you to compete fairly in the gender category you choose by pointing out the futility of using biological markers OTHER than gender to create those categories in sports. I have yet to hear a meaningful well reasoned argument that addresses the biological reality that going through puberty as a mail gives you significant advantages over women who have gone through puberty as a female. Advantages that are not reversed with hormone therapy. Advantages that are not reconciled with arguments like "how many trans women are in sports anyway" Arguments that don't avoid the reality of biological gender with doublespeak, selective science and prioritize wish fulfillment over biological realities and the core values of sport, fairness being one of those values that prohibits doping and other unfair artificial bio advantages.

I am still waiting for the counter argument to all that. I've seen plenty of gas lighting, pseudo authoritative posturing that finds itself very clever but fails to make a point.

[quote] Do you watch sports? For instance, have you seen what female gymnasts do and then watch male gymnasts? Have you seen how each sex excel in quite different ways on different apparatus? Do you watch tennis? Serena Williams, who is constantly mocked for her “masculine body”, has a serve speed 20% slower than that of comparable men.

I watch lots of sports. I played triple A baseball. I know the difference between the male body in peak athletic condition and the female body in peak athletic condition. I know that when I (and my peers) were in peak physical condition in our sport (baseball) a female of the same age and at peak fitness simply could not compete at the same level. I know that now I am in my 40s I could not compete with my previous self, or any male players in their 20s, but could still compete with women in my sport 20 years my junior.

Still waiting for that effective, based in facts and not fantasy argument for trans women in women's sports

It's bizarre how many people eagerly refuse to think or investigate science and reason because they get all their info and beliefs from BOB the Drag Queen!

You are so clever!

R99 my mother has to stop horsing with my brother and myself once we each reached about age 11. No more tackling when playing football, no more jumping on trampolines. We would have seriously injured her by that point and we were still shorter than her.

There are practical solutions, like have a third category for trans folks (and people with certain DSDs) in non contact sports, or changing the men’s category to an open category and keeping the women’s category for bio women. We can achieve inclusivity for everyone to fairly compete. But as a society we cannot affirm identities if fairness and safety are lost. And to be honest, affirmation comes from within.

There are a couple of sports like Equestrian and ski jumping which are open categories.

And there are sports where certain body types simply prohibited. We’re not going to see a tall skinny fella with a long neck in the front row of a scrum in rugby.

Technically the men’s category is open. A few marathons have a non binary category which surprise surprise have all been won by biological men.

NB categories are a solution but in swimming, trans folk do not want to use them.

Good for him for speaking up. I’m so glad common sense prevailed. It’s such an overused American throwaway term, but it’s sometimes necessary. There’s plenty of science why biological men shouldn’t be in female sports but sometimes something is so offensive it just needs to be broken down to level of common sense. It doesn’t even bear the standard of common sense. Come on now. If you believe otherwise you are just a stubborn liberal. It just doesn’t make sense that it could ever become a thing among rational minds. Why we do seperate the sexes to begin with. THINK.

R103 And they always will be. A male lion will always beat a female lion. A male tiger will always beat a female tiger. A male jaguar will always beat a female jaguar. What is we talkin bout.

And obviously I’m talking about two healthy opposites in sexual dimorphism species. A male animal sick, or with illness or famine, a female may very well prevail. Actually humans it’s more complex because we have evolved where some females can actually beat a smaller in size male. But when it comes to sports. You’re talking about people in tip top shape. The male will always prevail.

If trans activists just quit it with the whole “men in women’s sports” thing trans support would quadruple.