Florida to ban mandates for ALL vaccines

Anyone with any common sense should avoid visiting the US anyway, and thankfully MAGA are mostly too dumb to travel and hold passports.

How will they blame Democrats when an otherwise heretofore eradicated disease pandemic wipes out half of their children?

They are a special kind of stupid in Florida. If they want their kids to die, that’s on them. I’ve said for a long time, GOP is a death cult

Guess I won’t be going to Disney World for a while.

I have a pre-cruise stay in Miami on February. Will mask and wash my hands. Good lord.

Rhonda Santis puts the MARY in Typhoid Mary

Fucking morons

This will backfire. Bigly.

Unpaywalled at the link

I guess people only know that things were good after you make them bad. But, hey, at least they have the freedom to die without state interference.

I wonder f that includes work mandates as well ? I'm not in FL but I work in a health facility where most vaccines (including the flu shot) is mandated (otherwise you can't work at my health facility)- unless you have a dr's exemption. (Covid vax is optional, not mandated). So if a hospital in FL has the same policy, will the state ban supersede the hospital policy ?

Are they nuts??!! The only way we can live together without infectious disease running through the population, killing many, is vaccines

From the linked article:

[quote]Florida will work to end all vaccine mandates, state Surgeon General Joseph Ladapo announced Wednesday at a press conference with Gov. Ron DeSantis.

[quote]“Every last one of them is wrong and drips with disdain and slavery,” Ladapo said. The announcement at a private Christian school in Hillsborough County was met with loud applause from the crowd.

How does a simple vaccine "drip with disdain and SLAVERY" - ? This guy is nuts, as is DeSantis. How crazy are the people in Florida that they vote for this crap?

I get that many feel they want to have a choice to get their kid vaccinated. But being so overtly anti-science and anti-medicine, anti-public health; when does it end? I almost feel that abolishment of urgent care clinics are next. "They are slave ships, full of oppressive chemical providers!"

This includes all vaccine mandates required to go to school. Crazy

If they are not mandated, can insurance companies say they won’t pay for them?

Another reason never to visit Florida, let alone move there.

Slavery? Really?

Good thing Florida isn’t a major tourist destination where people can pick up the pox and deliver it elsewhere

Those who didn't want to vaccine their kids were most likely home-schooling them as well.

If they want their unprotected kids in public schools and they get sick and die - fine with me.

What are the larger health risks for unvaccinated people in the general public though? What risk are they to people who are vaccinated?

Serious question. Wouldn't they be a risk to elderly and immune-compromised sick people? Anyone have an answer?

Good. Less Republicans.

r14 100% they can

Every time there's an outbreak of anything antivaxers always blame filthy immigrants because the immigrants don't vaccinate. Fucking maddening that these assholes are only immune to cognitive dissonance

How do Republican health-care workers reconcile this stupid shit???

[quote]Serious question. Wouldn't they be a risk to elderly and immune-compromised sick people? Anyone have an answer?

That's their goal. To kill off old and sick people.

R22, there's a LOT of very stupid health care workers in this country. We saw that during Covid

Now our kids can die agonizing deaths, just as Jesus intended!

[quote]How does a simple vaccine "drip with disdain and SLAVERY" - ? This guy is nuts, as is DeSantis. How crazy are the people in Florida that they vote for this crap?

How in the hell is that quack a Harvard med grad??

I had assumed Lapado was descended from witch doctors, but his father was a microbiologist.

He's no credit to Harvard Medical School and Harvard Kennedy School. They should revoke his degrees and credentials.

I realize this looks bad . But we must remember what has been stated so many times on DL right after the election. At least we did not compromise our values with gop and maga types just to get their votes.

Standards are very important.

We will become the biggest and greatest manufacturer of iron lungs in the world!

I'm quitting my job and starting a new career in Florida. I'm going to be a Chicken Pox/Measles Party Planner. They'll be fancy like weddings, bar/bat mitzvahs and quinceañeras.

Kid sized coffins will sell like hotcakes!

These people are true believers, DLers. Seriously.

I'd had 7 covid vaccines, and a month after I got the last one, I caught covid in NYC. I was really sick for an entire month, and it took me forever to recover.

But when I tell that story to people 'round here, every single one has said to me, "The shot made you sick!" Without fail. The last guy I told said that he had two buddies who dropped dead right after they got their covid shots. Too bad I wasn't around to see it!

It's true; you can't fix stupid.

Sure, he’s a Harvard graduate but power makes people do weird things

R32, I like to tell them that Luke Perry, Prince and Tom Petty died of the vaccine, get them all lathered up and then point out that they died before covid was even a thing

What does Florida need a Surgeon General for if he's not going to make medical recommendations?

Fuck that SG he is also big time in favor of condoms. WTF kind of medical man is that?

Human beings are so stupid that a large number of them cannot understand anything unless they experience it or someone they care about experiences it. Vaccines were extremely popular so long as people with living memory of paralysis from polio, child death, sterility, etc. were still among us. My parents couldn't image leaving us unvaccinated because they grew up with the fear of paralysis and death from communicable disease. There are few of those people left. Now, people think the natural state of the world is a disease-free one. The same goes with drinking raw milk, which nobody has thought of doing for 100 years. Also the same with fascism. The mass death of WWII made fascism very unpopular. But that war is fading from living memory.

Now wacko Dr. Oz is against vaccine mandates

This is insane. Literally insane.

DeSantis is every bit as evil as Trump. Actually, he's smarter and more self aware than Trump, so I guess that makes him even more evil in terms of culpability.

I bet I can’t get my swine flu shot now. I admit I have put it off for a few years. Swine flu actually killed a boss of mine’s career. It was a bad flu in that aspect.

Was he a swine?

I repeat. This is fucking insane. Chicken pox is mild compared to polio and other shit that vaccines protrct us from.. And since states can't block interstate travel, these kids will be traveling all over the US during breaks.

It's irresponsible. Florida is a tourist hotspot.

R29 You rule

When FL loses bunches of tourists due to the proliferation of childhood diseases in the touristy areas, maybe they'll wake up.

But I doubt it. These MAGAts aren't too skilled at adding 2+2 to get 4.

Huge news for swamp bacteria

I still can't believe Rhonda DeSatan graduated from Yale. He seems to have an IQ of 60.

R46 damn i'm stupid

When diseases increase in number, they'll just blame it on immigrants.

It's compressible to me that, in exceptional cases, vaccines cause the disease they are intended to protect against, but I have a very hard time imaging how vaccines would cause all of these unrelated conditions vaccine sceptics speculate about.

People are getting so stupid that they are even worried about vaccinating their pets.

Exactly r37, I've been saying the same thing for years. The diseases like polio, whooping cough etc that vaccines eradicated are barely in living memory anymore and most people alive today have never seen the hideous diseases that vaccines got rid of. That plays a big part in this anti-vaccine nonsense.

R47, not just Yale for undergrad, but cum laude from Harvard Law, which means he was in something like the top 25% of his class, which is meaningful when it's a competitive place like Harvard.

What this tells us is that he is not stupid. He is legitimately evil. He knows better and is doing bad things intentionally.

Too bad we can't exclude unvaccinated adults from medical care. If you can't trust the medical professionals on the safety of a simple injection, why on earth would you trust them cutting open your body, reading your blood results, directing you to ingest daily medications? If you are anti-vacc your are anti-medicine and should have the courage of your convictions. There is no plausible theory by which the medical community is totally deluded with respect to vaccines but trustworthy in almost everything else.

Shows you that Florida doesn't care about its seniors. Most older people remember polio and and what a miracle it was when the vaccine arrived. It's really Gen X and younger generations that are fueling this stupidity. They're just very stupid and gullible people.

Remember when the anti-vaxxers were screaming that women who got the COVID vaccine would have babies with birth defects?

Guess what? It never fucking happened!

DeSatan and Yale? Whenever someone doesn’t seem smart enough, see if sports did the heavy lifting.

He was a member of the National team that made it to the 1991 Little League World Series in Williamsport, Pennsylvania.

After high school, DeSantis studied history at Yale University. He was captain of Yale's varsity baseball team; he played outfield, and as a senior in 2001 he had the team's best batting average at .336. - Wikipedia

THANK YOU FOR YOUR RETARDATION ON THIS MATTER !

DeSantis is finished in politics though. He went up against Trump and that ended him. Only the asskissers have a future in the Republican Party like Vance. Even this pandering won't help him.

Maybe when hundreds of thousands of people die, including some of us who know better, those morons will wake up. Or will it take a million or two? I'm so old I remember polio, including people who spent their lives in iron lungs.

R41 not that I know of he was a senser for sure.

R60 iron lungs or condoms. It’s all a plot. Fuck the vax. Fuck the condoms. Fuck public health.

Let’s party

My mother has a friend who is now in her 80s and had polio as a child. She was in an iron lung for months and has walked with a permanent limp for her entire life.

These anit-vaccine people are fucking clueless.

These anti-condom people are clueless.

You bet your ass Bootsies kids are all vaccinated. God I cant wait for my mother to die so I can get the fuck out of florida . Shes the only reason I havent left years ago .

[quote] If they are not mandated, can insurance companies say they won’t pay for them?

I guess they could say that. But charging for the shot may cost them more in the end. I have a feeling that they rather have the mandate in place. When more of the insured end up in urgent care or ER, that will cost the insurances a lot more. All they can and probably will do is "strongly recommend" to get the shot. That's all they can do.

It's cool, we did our own research!

The moronic guy in charge of health in Florida said who was he to tell people what to do! So I guess folks can go back to smoking, using heroin, drinking at any age, killing themslves with obesity because who is he? Why listen to any doctor about any health issue is his message. What a scientist!

Rhonda Kitten Heels HATES SCIENCE

Medicare/Medicaid Director Dr. Oz, when asked about Florida doing away with vaccine mandates:

"“I would definitely not have mandates for vaccinations. This is a decision that a physician and patient should be making together. Parents love their kids more than anybody else could love that kid, so why not let the parents play an active role in this?"

I actually know the answer to that question: because a whole lot of parents are deeply, irretrievably stupid.

It's time to admit that Harvard has produced a lot of complete fucking retards.

a heinous, diseased cesspool

Florida is a country of incredible disease.

"This is a decision that a physician and patient should be making together"

Weird how this doesn't apply to abortions, apparently

Well, we do want to be rid of Floriduh......

The red states should secede.

My uncle had it too R63..I remember my mother telling me the joy she and other moms felt when they came up with the vaccine...I was born in 1955, my brother 52. Polio was a nightmare to my generation

Florida: The Shithole State. Damned proud of it and determined to stay that way.

Anne Applebaum -- a conservative writer -- is correct. She has written that autocrats do not give a shit about their people. All they want is to remain in power. That is what elected Republican leaders are like. They do not give a shit about the people they serve. They only want to remain in power.

It seems to me that even if it is not mandatory to have the vaccines, they should still be available for those of us who choose to get vaccinated. Hopefully.

[quote]The red states should secede.

They did that once already and the consequences weren't too great for them. But they've probably forgotten about that, the same way they've forgotten about polio.

Maybe we need photos of people with smallpox and people in iron lungs plastered everywhere.

We are all going to end up paying for this shit.

Send an email to Disney saying you're cancelling plans for you Disney trip. Money is all these assholes understand

I did my research. Thankfully Florida doesn't have any mosquitos that could transmit diseases.

We need to release rabid dogs on these people to test their principles

Bless you, little Ronnie. I bet you would have let them inject you with HGT all day long if you had it to do over again.

This is insanity. Eventually, other countries will forced to require proof of vaccination before allowing US citizens entry to their countries. There's no way that other countries are going to pay for mindboggling American stupidity caused by the national obsession with fundamentalist religious beliefs and insistence on believing conspiracy theories over fact - both which are an intrinsic part of US culture.

Several decades ago I worked at a Fortune 100 petrochemical company; one of my responsibilities was handling certain of our engineering contract firms.

When I hired on, my supervisor told me one of our contract firms' owners had suffered from polio, and was confined to an iron lung; he told me to be prepared. So, I was forewarned.

But he couldn't have prepared me enough for the absolutely OTHERWORLDLY experience of speaking with this man; it was like we were both 20,000 leagues under the sea, 5,000 fathoms apart, talking over one tin and one Dixie cup connected by twine. For many months from his intimidating manner I thought the contractor was an asshole, but that was my youth, inexperience, and absurdly fine health and fitness telling me that; over time I grew to like and respect him a great deal, and he became one of my very favorite contractors to deal with. Of COURSE he usually sounded sharp and curt--he was in an iron lung that was breathing for him, ffs. One day a year or so later I got up the courage to ask him about it, and he was happy to tell me, laughing that it was refreshing to NOT have everyone act like "Nothing to see here, folks--move along!"

A couple months ago he came to my mind, and I looked him up, and was shocked to find he had died just a few years ago; I'd assumed he'd have been long dead, like most of the other owners I'd dealt with. Then again, he hadn't spent his entire adult life into senior age smoking, drinking, serial marrying and chasing young pussy like they had. So there's that.

Yeah, it'll be great to see and hear thousands more Mr. Js in the coming years. Can't wait to see the first ones complaining and Go Fund-ing Me because neither their employer nor the government will pay for their treatments and iron lungs, and they realize how precious it i̶s̶ WAS to be able to take a fucking breath on your own.

No, mandating a public health measure that has decades of objective data supporting its safety and effectiveness is not an assault on your fucking ‘freedoms.’ Public health is EVERYONE’S fucking health.

The dumb assholes that populate red state America willingly voted to degenerate into third world shitholes and are hellbent on taking the rest of us with them.

Well, they will see what happens as more and more parent opt out. Florida will be the epicenter of outbreak after outbreak

Ladumpo is desperate to be named surgeon general.

Right, R90?

I will nevernevernever forget the incessant, nattering hectoring voices from the early 80s (when I came of age) to now, telling gay men AIDS became a public health crisis, and remains one because they weren't being RESPONSIBLE with all their indiscriminate fucking and God-knows what all else debauchery they ALL had been (and were still) engaging in. Because straights weren't doing the same thing, not at all.

And even now, they talk back to the TV ads about PrEP and the current class of prescription drug treatments for HIV/AIDS, obviously pissed that gay men are still having *gasp* S-E-X, all these decades after they should have gone extinct.

If tomorrow a safe, effective vaccine to prevent and cure AIDS, the lines of gay men waiting to get it would be covering the world like the Sherwin-Williams logo.

But straights and decades-proven vaccines? Not so much.

So much for "responsibility."

I don’t care if this makes me a horrible person…but I truly hope that every parent who doesn’t vaccinate their kids against preventable diseases winds up with a dead kid.

And I hope that psychopaths like Desantis, who know damn well how insane this is, suffer a fate worse than death.

Mother fucking monsters.

If there’s a true vaccine for HIV, they will force gay men to take that one

A vaccine if done under the guise of prevention rather than pure politics would be something I MIGHT consider. I’ve never taken the pill as I don’t really need it, but if it was a one and done thing maybe I’d try that.

Are Florida voters brain dead?

Soon r97.

Pure ideology, run amok.

Decades ago I worked closely with a certain state health dept that I found had a strong stance against mandatory vax for school children. I was kind of shocked to find that out, won’t mention the state but they worship basketball.

It was all about freedom and the right for individuals to make their own choices with out the govt telling them. Personal freedoms

And today we have tobacco smokers, those that won’t vax, and anal barebackers who fuck not hubby but total strangers. Should the state step in and mandate adherence to good public health? That is a question not an argument.

Arrest those that continue to smoke, fuck anal bareback, and don’t vax? None of those activities are healthy and they all adversely impact the health and $$$$$$$$$$ of the rest the others. The others that don’t get fucked in the ass by strangers, don’t smoke, and do vax.

FOR FUCK'S SAKE, get a grip R100.

[quote]Too bad we can't exclude unvaccinated adults from medical care.

I wonder if insurance companies will refuse to cover unvaccinated children; it kind of makes sense and god knows the insurance companies never pass up an opportunity to raise their rates. For some people, there's no reaching them, but I do know some kooky anti-vaxxer types that pay attention to the inability to get insurance.

R100 You're acting like the stance is:

[quote]Our opinion on vaccines is generally positive, so we recommend children get vaccinated, but we won't mandate their parents to do so.

But it's more:

[quote]We think vaccines are generally bad and have adverse effects on children's development, therefore we're removing child vaccine mandates. You can vaccinate your children if you really want to, but that would probably be a dumb move.

That's why I hate the fact this is being framed as a "freedom" thing, because it's obviously not.

R102 if given the ok all high risk individuals , which includes much of DL, will pay more in insurance or be refused coverage.If the ims companies can get away with it in the future.

Smokers, noticeable drinkers, the unvaxed, the high risk male barebackers, those that ride motorcycles, etc etc etc etc,

Covid’s biggest failure was not causing any physical disfiguration. If we’d had a pandemic that caused long-term visible physical impairments, these anti-vax loons would have been silenced years ago.

[quote]A vaccine if done under the guise of prevention rather than pure politics would be something I MIGHT consider

What do you mean, R96? My brain is addled this morning, so apologies to you.

Funny that fat Rhonda didn’t mind injecting herself with Ozempic during her failed Presidential campaign.

Why not just eliminate DPH surveillance altogether? People that work in food service should be given the choice whether to wash their hands or wear gloves because FREEDOMS!

Wasn't one of the more hysterical objections to immigration because the immigrants possibly carried diseases?

R105 like untreated syphilis does? I have seen some truly unpleasant syphilis symptoms. And I mean gross and unpleasant. I never saw a nose being eaten away from the Big Pox but there are pictures.

People still got syphilis.

R100 dumb fuck

R111 OK explain how those are healthy and don’t cost the tax payers and those who pay for health insurance lots of $$$$$$$. I’d love to see a not dumb fuck like yourself make that argument.

Unless “ dumb fuck “ is all you have. And then well then that’s the best you have.

Try making a rational argument that R100 is wrong. Give it a fucking go and show us all how smart you are.

The odds in Vegas have just been posted and the betting money is that R111 will not be making a rational well thought out argument.

The odds say you can’t.

I m pulling for you to prove Vegas wrong friend,

Great move for a state full of vulnerable olds which is dependent on tourism.

Hopefully all the moneyed folks there avoiding state income tax and estate tax aren’t smart enough to move to another state and take their money with them.

Disney if it was smart would take a stand on this.

Insurance companies, in addition to not insuring Fla property due to climate change and failure to require adequate reserves for condo buildings, certainly could also refuse to insure businesses and municipalities due to public health risks.

Haha Florida, choosing to be a third world shithole. Pray for the Villages.

I’m looking forward to making diphtheria great again. There’s nothing like a thick cloud of mucus coating your lungs

R112 The diseases that vaccines prevent are far more communicable and dangerous to public health than smokers or fat people or bottoms. Focusing on the cost of a single individual to the healthcare system is a non sequitur. Comparing anti-vaxers to smokers is straight up stupid.

If you can profile smokers and charge them more because they are higher risk you could certainly profile gay men. Unless the Fed Govt says you can’t. Or people that ride motorcycles. Those that like to PnP.

The times they are a-changing. As they always do.

And let’s face it under Kennedy who will pay more for insurance the un vaxed or the vaxed?

Congrats on re-electing this guy, Florida!

Republicanism is a mental disorder

"Now this is some funny shit!"

[quote]Pray for the Villages.

Never!

[Quote] Are Florida voters brain dead?

Yes

It's the vaccines making us dumber!

The schadenfreude I will enjoy is going to keep me alive for the next few years.

Not for the poor kiddies, but for the parental "influencers" who allow them to die and who will be weeping copiously and greedily.

This is what happens when your side is no longer popular and you lose the House, the Senate, the White House, the Popular. Vote. And all 7 fucking battle ground states.

And so far I do not see our odds improving. We are still very unpopular.

If people stop shopping at Sears that does not make them stupid that has more to do with Sears than shoppers.

[quote]We are all going to end up paying for this shit.

Beyond all of the stupidity and needless suffering we're about to face, this also hugely pisses me off. Who is going to pay for the care for all of these sick, underfunded people? Who is going to pay for all of the longterm care for the future disabled, once polio makes its return to our shores. It's always the government, which is of course propped up with blue state tax revenue.

Newsom is onto something when he threatens the Feds with blue state tax withholding. I really don't want my money going to fund these insane people in Florida.

The blue states keep the red states running.

R127 I can predict the future accurately

Biden I mean Harris will win the election.

We all knew it. We banned DL members who claimed the vote might be close. I no longer think I can predict the future any better than the rest of DL.

The real problem for the dems is not what happens when everything turns to shit it’s what happens if it does not.

This is first and foremost an outcome of the failure of the U.S. educational system. What do you expect when arguments for Christian creationism are given equal weight as those for evolution?

r130 this country is insane.

[quote]We banned DL members who claimed the vote might be close.

No we didn't. First, there is no "we" on DL. Second, this never happened. No one was "banned" for expressing fears about polling or election results.

And however you're defining "we" here, it doesn't include all of us, I assure you. Don't speak for everyone.

I'm just a couple years from turning 60. I'm really starting to see and feel the effects of aging on my body. I've got a few "chronic" diagnoses under my belt by this stage, and any new bug or ailment takes a toll on me like never before. It takes forever for a cut to heal, a bruise to fade, or to fight off an infection. I'm well aware that my body and general health are far from what they were when I was younger.

I'm terrified of the new world we're entering under Trump and RFK. I can see myself in a few years on a ventilator in an ICU, silently mouthing goodbyes to my loved ones over an iPad held by a nurse in a mask. I have asthma and hbp among other issues. I'm probably not going to come out fine from another pandemic.

This is all terrifying and I feel powerless to do anything about it. The fear alone is probably taking years off my life.

Leave it to a black.

I think it'll soon be time to require Americans to provide proof of vaccinations or pass a health screening before they enter other countries.

^^If this anti-vax and anti-medical science ignorant bullshit continues in the US, other countries would have every right to do that.

I don't think we're thay far off from being banned from certain countries. Canada and Denmark are PISSED at us and rightly so.*

*(Definitely a sentence I couldn't imagine typing 10 years ago.)

And the smiling white guy to his left that has even more power in Florida is what, r134?

Canada has good reason to be worried, being our next door neighbor.

Canada, you in danger, girl!

[quote] I'm just a couple years from turning 60. I'm really starting to see and feel the effects of aging on my body. I've got a few "chronic" diagnoses under my belt by this stage, and any new bug or ailment takes a toll on me like never before. It takes forever for a cut to heal, a bruise to fade, or to fight off an infection. I'm well aware that my body and general health are far from what they were when I was younger.

[quote] I'm terrified of the new world we're entering under Trump and RFK. I can see myself in a few years on a ventilator in an ICU, silently mouthing goodbyes to my loved ones over an iPad held by a nurse in a mask. I have asthma and hbp among other issues. I'm probably not going to come out fine from another pandemic.

[quote] This is all terrifying and I feel powerless to do anything about it. The fear alone is probably taking years off my life.

R133 I'm 70 and I understand where you are coming from. Just a week ago Sunday, I was making a roast for dinner. When I plopped the roast in the pan of hot oil it splashed on my whole hand creating the worst pain I have felt in years. After soaking it in cold water, I saw all the blisters starting to form. It was a mess. Nevertheless, a week and a half later everything is much better and I am getting over it... just as you will with your health problems in your future.

We learn to deal with these types of problems and we are extremely grateful for the 'kindness of strangers' when it comes our way. Nevertheless, we are all on this path ALONE and cannot depend on anyone else to help us or make it more comfortable. But, we remain grateful if someone does.

My whole point is that we need to take what comes our way on a daily basis and not project to much into the future. The worst may or may not come, but it doesm't help to worry about it. Being ten years older than you, I have learned to go with the flow much more and life becomes an easier ride than worrying what people DON'T do for you, rather than being grateful for what they do. Take it easy, my friend, as you have a long way to go! Best wishes to you as you ride your way into elder living.

R142 sorry not a ban a several day time out because some stupid fuckers actually FF members who did say the vote would be close or worse that Trump might win.

No one who was here before the election could say otherwise except for ignorance . The DL was really busy back then. Not like now. And the FFs flowed like cheap wine.

There are people who will FF you for contradicting right-wing talking points about trans people

People can FF you for anything

Agreed. The FF function is a disgrace and is used against all sorts of categories of thought.

Agreed but members who suggested the vote would be close were not treated well here on DL. Can we agree on that?

And a dead forum like this is now pthat has a FF feature is not run by people who want to make money.

Christ R100, you make the right's talking points for them. The argument comes down to scope: some choices mainly risk yourself, but refusing vaccines risks everyone. Smoking or unprotected sex can create higher personal and sometimes societal costs, but medicine and prevention tools exist to manage those risks. Vaccination refusal is categorically different: it strips away protection for the whole community and drives outbreaks. And let’s be clear — dragging specifically gay sex into this is both insulting and irrelevant. We've shamed gay men for decades for freeloading on everyone else’s immunity and at great risk. Gay men in fact are uniquely positioned to criticize the anti-vaxxers.

You're being too cute by half.

R146

No not sometimes societal costs. Always.

Someone goes bareback and gets infected it costs society. Insurance, taxes, infections and morbidity infections and morbidity. Sometimes 100,000s die and in a short period .

Barebacking strangers has never been healthy. And doubtful ever will be. Barebacks and the anti vax crowd are both posing risk and costs to others. Two slightly different types of birds but lots in common.

Both pose a significant risk to others.

And anyone that works in public health knows this. It’s a no brainer unless they are dishonest.

Sorry infections and mortality

Sickness and death ( and drug resistance) that is what barebackers spread. History shows this and there has never been a time in history when this was not the case.

It’s not always those “others”

Despite being a rather very small % of the US population gay men dominate STDs and HIV and monkeypox, and etc etc etc in the US. Again it’s been this way since forever.

And who do we on DL attack as bad for society —-a different group of people that are not us and our friends.

Human nature

Here we have Hand Foot and Mouth Disease breakouts at schools. Kids can attend school with lesions as long as they don’t have a fever.

[quote]Someone goes bareback and gets infected it costs society. Insurance, taxes, infections and morbidity infections and morbidity. Sometimes 100,000s die and in a short period .Barebacking strangers has never been healthy. And doubtful ever will be. Barebacks and the anti vax crowd are both posing risk and costs to others. Two slightly different types of birds but lots in common.

I'm the last person to defend promiscuous unprotected sex. I think it's crazy, but there is no comparison between not getting vaccinated and engaging in risky sex. And there is absolutely no reason we can't condemn both behaviors. Nonetheless, refusal to vaccinate puts every non-consenting person you come into casual contact with at risk. Currently, that risk isn't huge because most people have done the responsible thing and vaccinate. If refusing vaccination becomes widespread, the consequences will be catastrophic on a scale that unprotected sex is not.

[quote]Despite being a rather very small % of the US population gay men dominate STDs and HIV and monkeypox, and etc etc etc in the US. Again it’s been this way since forever.

Correct. And lesbian women account for less than anybody. And straight people account for virtually all the abortions, birth control costs, and abandoned/unwanted children,. Gay men almost never cause any of these scourges.

Unprotected sex is nothing like that. And, currently, in America, at least, absolutely nothing near 100,000 people are dying because of unprotected sex.

Yes it’s mostly gay men that drive STDs and HIV and monkeypox and and and in the US

And yes it’s mostly straight woman that get abortions..

If and when Trump Kennedy Vance at el are done passing new laws and regs , condom use in the US may be a lot more popular then than it is today for straights and gay men. I do believe that.

More changes are coming

And, of course, until relatively recently, heterosexual intercourse was a not inconsequential cause of death. Death during and shortly after childbirth was far from unheard of. And that was true through all of recorded history until about a century. The cumulative death toll of that is significant.

Vaccines are the reason why monkeypox didn't do more damage

^^And gay men who were at risk got the vaccine. You don't really see anti-vaccine nonsense with gay men.

That and the fact that the vastly larger non gay male population was never at significant risk of monkeypox. Like they were never at risk for HIV ( except for truly high risk straights like those that needed transfusions for a few years)

Can you picture what life would be like now for a gay male teacher if a gay issue like monkeypox had started to infect school children thru innocent contact ?

Lots of gay men were infected with MP I never heard of any of them in any way infecting straight adults or young kids in school.

Lucky Lucky Lucky on that. This is the type of shit that could actually lead to gay high risk camps.

Penetrative heterosexual intercourse will generally always be a more socially dangerous activity because of its potential to create non-consenting third parties (i.e. children). Whatever harms gay sex leads to, the primary incidence of it falls on the consenting participants.

Heterosexuals fucking is the single most important activity in human history. Jacking off , anal , oral , fisting, none of that comes remotely close as far as importance to humans.

Anal and oral could be made illegal and the humans could survive.

I don’t think anyone is disputing the function heterosexual intercourse had (Although it is theoretically possible, if cumbersome, for the human race to survive without intercourse, and that may be more feasible as time goes on. And, of course, the vast majority of heterosexual intercourse is undertaken with the specific Intention that it not propagate the species). I’m merely saying penetrative heterosexual intercourse is the most dangerous form of intercourse and raises the most significant moral issues. Relatively speaking, other forms of heterosexual and homosexual intercourse raise relatively few issues.

I wish we weren't all being Larry Kramer about this.

In what way?

In what way?

Sex negative mincing prisspots.

Listen to the Bad Gays episode about him.

Having unprotected sex with a very large number of strangers is probably never going to be a great idea. The treatments that essentially eliminated the risks of HIV transmission do nothing to prevent hepatitis or, less seriously herpes and warts. They also don't protect you against the STIs that have to-date been treatable but that are at risk of becoming non-treatable and that are no picnic to deal with even when they are. Widespread unprotected promiscuous sex will always carry the potential risk of something like AIDS developing. The level of assurance we have about unprotected sex is exactly comparable to the level of assurance we had in the 60s or 70s and we know how that turned out. I'm not suggesting we make a law against it. I'm just saying I can't imagine taking that risk and that anyone who does can't necessarily express surprise if something novel, like AIDS, ends up affecting them.

It is indeed frightening to see one's own society go completely down the drain (to understate it) in real time.

^^^^^It's been coming for quite some time

I very much agree with you, R164. Of course you know that you would be vociferously opposed by some in the "community". There are, however, vaccines for hepatitis and warts, which all sexually men should have (even as boys). I hope that the availability of these will not be threatened.

^^^^^^sexually active

Alligator Alcatraz may be the safest place in the state!

What are the chances that another novel sexually transmitted immunity-killing virus arises in our lifetimes?

I wouldn't rule out the chances of a new sexually transmitted disease arising in general. It doesn't have to be an immunity killing one to be fatal or seriously injurious. We have had several in recent years. Fortunately, none have gotten out of control. The conditions that allowed AIDS to spread only arose fairly recently so the fact that nothing similar proceeded it, doesn't necessarily provide much comfort that something similar might not arise in the near future.

Great article on 55+ communities.

Looking 75 helps her fit in.

This is what happens when you put a tribal witch doctor in the position of Surgeon General.

Disney can't afford to have disease outbreaks in Florida.

Another case where there will have to be pain, illness, and death, before people realize they can't elect fucking morons who don't believe in science.

Will other red states follow Florida's lead and eliminate vaccine mandates? I've noticed headlines reading "Florida is first state..." implying others states may follow.

Is this a goal mentioned in Project 2025?

I don't know if it is, r177, but I'm sure it won't be the last red state to do so.

And now Trump is trying to lure world leaders to disease-ridden, third-world country Florida for the G20 to kill them!

Anal sex will always be a high risk for bloodborne pathogen transmission. It is what it is.

Well the elephant in the room is gun control. More than a quarter MILLION people are shot every year, and people who consider that acceptable price of "freedom" should all be shot. Not to mention it makes people unwilling to compromise in politics or just in subdivision life.

More people die from suntanning, as Kennedy likes to do, than from vaccines.

Yeah. It’s interesting the kinds of rigid thinking that cause people to reject things that don’t fit their preconceived worldviews.

R181 Is that number global? From what I've read*, in the US, 125 people a day die from gunshot wounds and over 200 people a day are injured by gunshot but survive. 325 x 365 days = 118,625 persons shot each year in US (approximately)

* Everytown for Gun Safety

That are recorded. There is no systematic collection of gun injuries is there? And how many people are shot at but not hit? Quarter million is probably an underestimate, but how much "collateral damage" is acceptable to you R184, given that none of these people are shot so others may eat.

[quote] More people die from suntanning, as Kennedy likes to do.

I forget where I heard it, RFK Jr.'s face now looks like a beat-up baseball mitt. Seemed such an apt analogy watching him in the hearing this week.

R185 Everytown for Gun Safety is the largest organization that is devoted to reducing gun violence through research, education, and promoting partnerships of people with the same goal. I prefer to trust their statistics based on careful research over a DL poster's wild guesses.

Florida to plan manatees?

R178 Project 2025 does have the goal of having decisions about vaccinations made by individuals and their physicians. I do expect other Republican controlled states to follow Florida's example.

From the American Public Health Association:

[Quote] Key areas of concern in Project 2025 include: CDC guidance and authority: The proposal recommends prohibiting the CDC from issuing prescriptive guidance on vaccines and masks, leaving such decisions entirely to parents and medical providers (p. 454). It also advocates for limiting the CDC's role to evaluating only health-related costs and benefits of interventions, without considering any social impacts (p. 453).

[Quote] Restructuring key public health agencies: The plan proposes splitting the CDC into two agencies, one for data collection and one for policy recommendations, suggesting that CDC is not equipped to make policy decisions. This would slow emergency responses and remove the already limited authority the CDC has. The plan also recommends reforming the FDA’s drug approval process and calling for term limits for leaders at the NIH while sending funds directly to states instead of through the NIH.

R185 there sure was such a collection and monitoring of all gun related deaths and injuries in the US. That program was started by a former now deal friend

That national program lasted until the time of RFK jr

Covid may have killed CDC but it was not Covid that put CDC on the bad list at first. It was guns.

Dead not deal

R189

Data and policy only? Did it mention at all the EIS? Or others that don’t collect data or make policy recommendations they are in the field responding?.

I do believe that CDC went off the rails years ago when they went from being the commutable disease center to being later the centers for disease control and prevention.

Smoking and Guns hurt CDC. Those programs should have been elsewhere not CDC. Those programs brought the political heat earlier on.

R171 it does not need to be anything new. It could be the inability to treat what is old. I can’t tell you how serious CDC once took the issue of overuse of antibiotics that could lead to resistance. The military medicine did as well.

Now antibiotics are used by healthy people to routinely prevent STDs and is routinely done and encouraged. ( that was public health or CDC waving the white flag and giving up)

Will this in time lead to gonorrhea or others that can no longer be treated ? We re close now. If that happens then camps for the infected or other quarantine will certainly be considered and likely used to keep them from infecting others.

In time it will certainly get worse as far as STDs and sickness and death. And it’s almost certain to be a gay male issue. I can’t predict the actual time. I’d like to think it’s not to happen in my life time. Although considering how ancient I am

From the minute PrEP become available, people have been yelling that we were going to unleash a plague, or a new more virulent disease.

PrEP protocols were put in place in 2012. None of the worst case scenarios have happened. Look at what happened with mpox. We got our asses in gear and got vaccinated and it never really happened. As a community, we are a fucking MODEL for robust public health policy.

And until Secretary Brain Worm got in, we were on the precipice of having an AIDS vaccine. If we can get the lunatic out, we still might. People like Peter Staley will actually see AIDS end.

Half of the reason I'm a doctor is because of AIDS. Hell, the thesis I wrote for my BS was about PrEP. Viruses scared the hell out of me as a kid, so I learned everything I could instead of clutching my pearls. PrEP didn't unleash a plague, it unleashed common sense.

The plague is people whining about it while access stays unequal.

Without vaccines, we’d still be Industrial Age London—people, especially kids, dying left and right from now, preventable disease.

To live together in a community, we have a duty to keep each other safe

Other states may follow Florida's lead

Glad my state has a Dem governor

R194 ‘ From the minute”

It’s only been a minute. What will all this actually look like 20-40 years from now?

Diseases that can no longer be cured like gonorrhea in time quite possibly others is my guess. CDC never claimed routine antibiotics to prevent STDs would not lead to a massive resistance problem.

Common sense might think it would. What CDC said is we hope not but we will be following and studying this issue. Because after all resistance is already a problem we are really really concerned about..

Guess what program no longer exists at CDC?

I don't know what it'll look like in 20 or 40 years.

What I do know is that as a community, we are REALLY, REALLY good at taking care of each other. When AIDS happened, we figured out ways to be ourselves as safely as possible with as little risk as possible. There were, are, and always will be people on the margins who don't play fair, or what have you, but we started using condoms, enacted massive change to how medical research is done (and in the process slingshotted medical science forward to the point that we can deal with stuff like COVID and mpox), and formed care networks that ended up being the model for how we got whatever advancements of our rights through. I say this with complete love and admiration: if Trump had put the Sisterwomyn of MichFest in charge of COVID response in 2020, we'd have had the thing licked in a week.

If there is another AIDS, we're going to be just fine. And I know that because of how we adapted to COVID and mpox. Not everyone was perfect, but we were together enough that it didn't spiral. Because we weren't living in secret. We shared information, got our asses in gear, and did something. I don't think you have ANY idea how amazing the response to mpox, both by the government (that piece is gone now, but we'll find workarounds) and by changing our own behavior. The vaccine clinics were astonishing, and the lines in New York for them was long. The system worked.

I'm basically an eldergay now. There's a generation of men ahead of me who went missing from the story. I understand being afraid of what might happen. I was so afraid, I hid inside myself until COVID. And while COVID didn't quite get me, my own illness a few years later almost did. And I decided that I could be afraid of my death, or I could embrace my life. I embraced my life. And I'm really, really grateful that guys in their 20s and 30s are really into guys in their 40s and 50s.

TL;DR: The future is scary. Our community has taken a lot of hits. And we're still here. Still dancing.

Don’t worry be happy think positive as a public health approach.

Science saved the gay community as far as AIDS. L

Science saved lives, sure. But don’t you dare forget it wasn’t handed to us. We bled and screamed for every drug trial, every approval, every damn acknowledgment that our lives mattered. Science didn’t save us alone: queer rage and love dragged it across the finish line. That’s why we’re still here.

Those guys aren’t here to tell their stories. So I will.

Other countries will have to step up to the plate, which is a good thing, but should have been happening in a larger way all along.

Yes Queer Rage is what we need more of. Great suggestion.

[quote]Yes Queer Rage is what we need more of. Great suggestion.

Stonewall was a ______