It's Tuesday so tell me about Valerie Harper

I was at an industry dinner party and Valerie was at my table with about eight other people.

She was charming, delightful, and kind.

When dessert came, I said, "I love this pie!" and she burst out laughing.

The dessert wasn't pie and other people at the table weren't sure why I said it. But Valerie's laugh is something I'll never forget.

She was in L’il Abner, on stage and in the movie, more than 10 years prior to MTM. She was in Wild Cat, on B’way, which starred Lucille Ball. The girl (VH, that is) paid her dues.

R2- Lucy was offered the role of MYM’s cranky neighbor on the MTM show but Fary talked her out of it.

Why was she cast as Mary's unattractive, fat friend? In reality she was more attractive than Mary and not fat at the start of the show just average.

Was I that fat at the end of the show?

I didn’t mind the loss of Joe. He was becoming a jerk. But I did mind the loss of the original apartment set.

I am enjoying the mid 70s fashion and decor on Rhoda. Lots of frumpiness.

Joe was hot! His ex wife was played by Joan Van Ark.

I think the general consensus among fans and TV critics is that the producers and writers just didn't know what to do with this show. She was spun-off back to her home in Manhattan to be a single woman navigating life in NYC in the 70s, like Mary was navigating life as a single woman in Minneapolis. The writers should have left it as this.

Instead, she met someone, fell in love and got married within two months. That whole storyline was funny, and it brought in the ratings that every other new show envied that season. But the the show really went nowhere - it was never supposed to be about a married couple, and the writers later admitted they didn't know how to write for 'a married sitcom couple'. They were hired to write for a single woman in her 30s in NYC.

So by the third season, they made her single again, but there were more major shifts that season (Joe was gone, her 'Mom and Pop' were gone that season, new apartment, etc.). It proved too many changes for the audience. I happened to like the last three seasons more than the first two, but many viewers wanted to still see her married.

I knew a guy that was the stage manager for her show "Looped", before she got ill, and he adored her. Couldn't say enough positive things about her and working with/for her.

R8- I agree. I always thought poor man's James Caan was hotter than rich man's David Groh.

The whole idea for spinning off "Rhoda" was to have her get married quickly. The producers knew it would be the highest rated sitcom episode up to that time (and it was). But then the problem was they didn't know what to do with the show after that.

The one really great idea they had was to give Rhoda a sibling who was even more like she was on "The MTM Show" than she herself was, and Julie Kavner was hilarious as Brenda. The producers of "Frasier" repeated the same idea with the Niles character when that show was spun off of "Cheers," and it also worked brilliantly the second time.

She was a strong dancer. Arriving in NYC she immediately got into Radio City's corps de ballet.

Rhoda gets an unfair rap as a spin-off that didn’t quite work. Yes, it had its flaws — Joe was miscast from the start, Rhoda’s circle of friends never really gelled, and by the end, she didn’t have much of a storyline — but there was still a lot to enjoy.

Julie Kavner was a great discovery as Brenda, and her chemistry with Valerie Harper and Nancy Walker was fabulous. The dynamic between the three Morgenstern women was easily the show's strongest asset.

I recently rewatched the episode where Brenda takes a class to overcome shyness. The instructor tells her to act like the boldest person she knows — and without missing a beat, she hilariously adopts all of her mother's mannerisms.

I also loved the on-location shots of Rhoda and Brenda all over NYC in the opening sequences of the later seasons. You never see that kind of slice-of-life credit sequence anymore. It made the show feel grounded in a real place and time.

I would imagine they married Rhoda to Joe as there would have been too much similarity between the show with MTM's if she stayed a single career woman in the big city. As it was, Rhoda as a character had to 'straighten up' a bit, as she was now the show's lead and not a supporting character as she was on MTM.

I know people who worked with her on Rhoda and Valerie and no one has anything even remotely negative to say. She would run into crew members years after they worked together and could still remember names and relationships.

As for Rhoda, it was a disaster. She weirdly took on the MTM role and Julie Kavner became Rhoda. And Joe was just not Rhoda's type, aside from the fact that he was colossally unfunny. Yet they were intent on casting hunks and Valerie had zero chemistry with Groh.

[quote]And Joe was just not Rhoda's type, aside from the fact that he was colossally unfunny. Yet they were intent on casting hunks and Valerie had zero chemistry with Groh.

This.

Julie and Valerie remained close after Rhoda wrapped. It's been rumored that Julie helped pay for Valerie's treatments when she was sick.

Val was apparently Rosie O'Donnell's first guest on the first Rosie show after 9/11.

[quote]It's been rumored that Julie helped pay for Valerie's treatments when she was sick.

Sisters stick together.

I didn't know Harper was born in Saskatchewan and iwasn't even Jewish! Nancy Walker wasn't Jewish either. Kinda blew my mind.

R20 I guess The Simpsons money came in handy.

One of the other dumb things they did with Rhoda was they changed the great theme song after a few seasons.

Rhoda opening credits, season one:

Opening credits, season two:

Opening credits, season three:

Opening credits, season four:

Opening credits, season five:

Season one's opening feels like an anthem

I remember reading the reason Leachman was spun-off into her own sitcom was because they had spun-off Harper, and Leachman believed she deserved the same. Harper was now the 'star' of her own sitcom, and Leachman, an Oscar-winning actress, was still a supporting character to MTM.

The writers didn't feel her character was strong enough as a lead in a sitcom ( "Phyllis' played better as a second banana), but she threatened to leave the series and the network if a show was not created for her in the following season. They didn't want her leaving the network, so they took a chance on spinning her off (she was now happy - she was a sitcom star, getting a star's salary). They tried to make her into a 'leading character' but she didn't catch on with audiences after two seasons and two cast changes. The producers were right - 'Phyllis' was not a leading lady to have stories written around week after week.

When her show was canceled in March, 1977, the network had the idea of sending her to 'Rhoda', and help that series rebound after a disastrous third season. A script was prepared for the third or fourth episode in that fourth season, in which Leachman would be a guest star. The premise was Phyllis is visiting Manhattan, but gets stuck at the airport over the weekend and asks to stay in Rhoda's apartment (I believe the script was titled, "Knock, Knock! It's Your Old Friend Phyllis!"). If ratings were a hit, the writers were going to make her a series regular by 'November sweeps' a few months later - somehow, Phyllis was to relocate to Manhattan and rent an apartment in Rhoda and Brenda's building.

The plan fell through - it was rumored that Leachman supposedly wanted to keep her 'leading actress salary' even though she was going to be a costar on the show, and CBS wouldn't agree (can't blame them). The 'Knock, Knock!' episode was scrapped, as well. (I believe when the plan fell through, Leachman said it was because she was 'done' with the character and wanted to move on.)

She was no Mary.

I liked Brenda and Nick better.

Honestly she should have ended up with the lounge singer. Underneath he was a nice guy and he seemed nuts about her.

Didn't Valerie win the Emmy for leading actress in a comedy series? I wonder if that makes her one of the few (or perhaps only) performer to ever win the Emmy for supporting and then lead for the same character?

How was Anne Meara? She was brought on as a friend to Rhoda but she didn’t last long.

Joe was a real ass in the episode when Mary visits.

[quote]I didn't know Harper was born in Saskatchewan and iwasn't even Jewish! Nancy Walker wasn't Jewish either. Kinda blew my mind.

Her mother was from Saskatchewan. Her father was a traveling salesman, who met her mother while in Canada, married her, and brought her back to the US.

Harper was born in New York, but due to her father's job, the family moved constantly around the country (Massachusetts, New Jersey, Michigan, California, Oregon, etc.)

R4 This again?

I'm always surprised Rhoda is still playing in reruns.

The fact is, they shouldn't have created spinoff shows for the Rhoda and Phyllis characters. But I suppose at least Rhoda made Kavner's career happen.

I will cut any bitch who says Phyllis was a better show than Lou Grant. As noted above, Phyllis as a character couldn't carry the lead. Lou Grant may not have been a comedy as some would have expected, but it was well made. And Nancy Marchand was delightful as Mrs. Pynchon. She got four fucking Emmys out of it, and it was a wonderful contrast to her later turn as Livia Soprano.

I thought Nancy Marchand gave Sada Thompson fierce competition in the Miss Creep competition.

Miss Creep? What does that mean?

R34 here. I just asked Siri that question and it gave me one answer — Ed Asner.

How did Rhoda have five seasons, when the first show was September 9, 1974 and the last one was December 9, 1978?

Because it was canceled in the middle of its fifth season.

[quote]Joe was a real ass in the episode when Mary visits.

Can you blame him?

He had planned a three-day getaway for him and Rhoda in Cape Cod.

They both worked a lot, so that was the first time in a long while when they had the same days off.

Not to mention, they almost didn't get to go, because that was his son's weekend with him, so he had to make a deal with his ex-wife to take him.

Then Mary unexpectedly shows up when they're about to walk out the door.

On top of that, Rhoda tells him that she'd rather spend the weekend with Mary, because she hardly gets to see her anymore.

R44 the TV season is usually September-May, like the schoolyear.

RHODA typically had 24 episodes that aired September-March, except for Season 4 when they aired October-April.

Season 5 began airing in September 1978 but then was canceled midway through after 13 episodes had aired.

The ratings must have dropped pretty drastically if a fifth season was ordered, then cancelled midway through.

R48, in its fifth season, it was in the same time slot as CHiPs. No one can compete with hot 1970s cop meat.

Amazing it lasted as long as it did.

At the time, there was a rumor going around (which CBS got wind of) that the other two networks were offering Harper her own sitcom, and she was interested. They knew she was a 'star' for the 70s. Her contract with MTM was coming up, and that's probably how this got started. CSB didn't want to lose Harper, so they offered her 'Rhoda' - something they were considering since the second season, but the rumors that she was talking with ABC and NBC sped up the project.

However, Harper said she laughed off the rumors, as she heard from her manager at the time that the networks did want to 'talk to her' before she re-signed with MTM, but she had no interest in leaving the show. No offers were really made, except offers to have lunch with her and try to woo her to their network somehow. She didn't bother - she loved her work on TMTMS and had no intention of leaving - not even for her own show.

But even with Harper clearing the air, by that time (Season 3 of MTM) CBS had convinced themselves it was time for Harper to have her spin-off. She said she was terrified to leave, and spoke to MTM who said this was a great opportunity for her as an actress, and if the show failed - she would always be welcomed back to TMTMS. She still wasn't convinced she should leave - so she had dinner with veteran actress Nancy Walker who would co-star as her mother on the spin-off (Walker was a busy actress back then, with 'McMillan and Wife' and her successful 'Bounty' commercials, so she really didn't need 'Rhoda', too). Harper said after she confided in Walker on how much money CBS offered her, Walker reached over the table, held her by the hand and talked her into it. She told Harper it was 'an incredible offer' for someone who's been on television for only three years, that if she said 'no' she would be telling all three networks that she didn't have confidence in herself to be a lead actress in a sitcom and therefore will never star in her own show. "Listen to me, and take the offer", said Walker (who Harper regarded as 'a mother figure' to her in Hollywood). So Harper said yes...the rest is history.

BTW, when Season 4 was wrapping, Harper let CBS know that she would be finished with Season 5. She was playing the character for a decade, and she wanted out (she wanted to move on to feature films, and get away from television). So CBS knew that Season 5 would be the last, and started focusing on 'Brenda', hoping to spin her off into her own show for 1979-80, which is why 'Brenda's wedding' was happening so fast (it was planned for February 1979 sweeps). Harper may have been done with 'Rhoda', but CBS hoped audiences were not done with Julie Kavner's "Brenda". (There was talk of moving Brenda, Benny and Ida to CT to start the series, so I guess Ida and Martin would be divorced by the end of 'Rhoda').

But in Season Five, CBS moved 'Rhoda' from Sunday nights to Saturday nights, against 'CHiPs', and the ratings dropped to their lowest levels. They filmed 13 episodes (the last being 'Brenda Runs Away') but CBS only aired 9, before canceling the show - and plans for Brenda's spin-off - in December, 1978. At the time, the show was on 'Holiday break' (from Thanksgiving - New Year's) when Harper got the call from CBS saying not to come back in January (everyone still got paid for the full season). She said she was ecstatic - the best Christmas gift she ever got as she was so tired of playing 'Rhoda'.

But wait - there's more ! 2.5 years after it was canceled, they tried a 'Carlton Your Doorman' spin-off in the form of an animated series during prime time. They aired the pilot in the Spring of 1981, and it didn't go further.

They had so many more interesting choices for Rhoda's boyfriends later on, Rene Aubejonois, Ron Silver, although thankfully not Richard Masur, who CBS kept foisting on us. Even Steve Franken on MTM showed sparks with Valerie. If we could have seen her actually dating, the brass could have been better about who they paired her with. The Rhoda/Joe relationship was doomed primarily because she somewhat shames him into marriage because she didn't want to live together. Coupled with Joe's son who hated Rhoda and you knew it couldn't last. Ironically, Harpers real life husband, Richard Schaal also never had any onscreen chemistry with Harper.

R48 the ratings plummeted when they got rid of Joe in Season 3.

SEASON 1: #6

SEASON 2: #7

SEASON 3: #33

SEASON 4: #21

SEASON 5: #95

[quote] Nancy Walker wasn't Jewish either.

And even more surprising: she had a husband.

Ann Meara was probably the worst casting choice they could've made. She came across as so unlikeable, angry, and so full of hate for the opposite sex. I think that's why the ratings dropped in season 3. Thankfully, they wrote her off when the show came back in January 1976 for the second half - and never explained her absence, and never mentioned 'Sally' again. She went from 'Rhoda's new best friend' in September to 'no one at all' in January.

The last few times I watched Rhoda I found it very mean, especially to Ida.

Her Television Academy interviews are a delight. She talks about how Rhoda was the last character to be cast, she went in on a Friday having worked out all her physical business (her work in Second City helped), and by the time she got home Richard Schaal told her she'd gotten the job. She started that Monday as the least known member of the cast and within a few episodes she was indelible.

As posters above have said, no one has a bad word about her.

[quote]On top of that, Rhoda tells him that she'd rather spend the weekend with Mary, because she hardly gets to see her anymore.

R46 She actually tells him, "I see you all the time and I never get to see Mary."

[quote]How was Anne Meara? She was brought on as a friend to Rhoda but she didn’t last long.

Excuse me!!! How can you have possibly not mentioned OUR GODDESS?

Nancy Walker changed a lot from her younger days at MGM. She no longer had the big jaw and her face was prettier when she was older. Did she go under the knife? (She didn't seem quite as butch, later, either.)

(With June Allyson and Gloria De Haven in Best Foot Forward, 1943.)

Vance and David White were offered to be regular co-stars on the series after that episode. White wanted to take the offer (he had been missing from TV since 'Bewitched ended in 1972) but Vance said no (she had already been diagnosed with cancer at that point). Like other characters on the show, those two 'new neighbors' were never mentioned ever again.

It's nice someone finally gave Vivian Vance a part (albeit too late) other than Lucy.

[quote] [R4] This again?

R38 Thank you for confirming that R4’s question had been discussed in a previous Rhoda/Valerie Harper thread. I thought so, too, and I’m always delighted when I recognize repetition on DL, because it means I don’t have dementia.

Even MAD Magazine played it as "Rodent" being more attractive.

Maybe Rhoda was more attractive to gay men (?), but the straight guys I knew were way more into Mary Tyler Moore.

[quote]Why was she cast as Mary's unattractive, fat friend? In reality she was more attractive than Mary and not fat at the start of the show just average.

Rhoda is supposed to be an ex-fattie.

She mentions that she turned to food for comfort growing up and thus had a bad puberty, but she still was self-conscious about her looks despite the weight loss.

R65, I think that's very true.

[quote]I didn't know Harper was born in Saskatchewan and wasn't even Jewish!

I believed the hype back when she was on Valerie, about how she was difficult, and hard to work with, But I guess the network spread some of that around. I think she sued them and won,

(period)

[quote]Maybe Rhoda was more attractive to gay men (?), but the straight guys I knew were way more into Mary Tyler Moore.

I posted this back in 2019 in another "Rhoda" thread:

WILL: So, ask him.

GRACE: No, no. No. That's not the way it's supposed to happen. I want him to ask me.

WILL: Grace, in the real world, women ask men all the time. Rhoda asked Joe.

GRACE: No, she didn't.

WILL: Yes, she did. She kept waiting for him to pop the question, and when he finally did, it was, "Do you wanna live together?" So she looked him right in the eye and said, [IMITATING RHODA] "Ok, Joe. I wanna be married."

GRACE: Wow. You will use any excuse to do a Rhoda impression.

WILL: Grace, you love him. You wanna marry him. So ask him.

GRACE: You're right. I should. I will! I'm gonna ask him. I mean, it makes total sense. I was the one who was gonna end up paying for the ring anyway. Oh, my God! This is so exciting!

WILL: I know! [AS RHODA] I gotta call my sister Brenda and tell her the news.

R64 MAD Magazine was ruthless. I think it was the Mary Tailor Made Show and my personal favorite, Lou Grouch.

I have never heard a bad word about Valerie from my industry friends. The whole “Valerie” fiasco boiled down to a combination of factors and she was unfairly blamed for a lot of it.

As far as I know MAD magazine writers were mostly straight. They preferred Rhoda. My dad and brothers preferred Rhoda. Mary came across as the uptight WASP who reeked of hairspray, probably unwilling to give blowjobs.

R72, like the Suzanne Somers fiasco with Three's Company, her husband Tony was probably greatly responsible for the problems.

And the Cindy Williams fiasco with Laverne & Shirley

Harper had perfect comic timing. Her line delivery never fails. In watching her on MTM and Rhoda, I'm always amazed at how really, really talented she was.

Agree with R4 that it's ironic she was cast as the dumpy frumpy friend on MTM. She was much prettier than MTM. The beauty contest episode on MTM finally gave Rhoda her just recognition as a lovely woman.

By the end of the series, both Valerie and Julie became glammed up. Valerie had lost a lot of weight and got her hair permed while they started outfitting Brenda in more upscale wardrobe and coiffed Julie’s hair more stylish.

They were no longer the city bohemian girls next door.

I thought his name was Richard, aka DICK r74.

I admit to being disappointed when I found out they were a couple.

Back in the 1970's there was some kind of feminist (women's lib?) variety special on CBS that was "the TV first show produced by women" with skits and songs. Valerie was the star (to me at least) and I believe Brenda Vaccaro was involved.

R77 They actually started with Julie Kavner early on. Between the first episode of Rhoda (it’s not clear to me if that was a pilot or if CBS OK’ed the show without one) and the next few episodes, Julie’s eyebrows were trimmed considerably, and it seemed that she lost some weight. I agree that there was continued glamorizing throughout the run of the series.

I liked Rhoda best on The Mary Tyler Moore Show, I never really watched Rhoda

I saw Harper on Broadway in Looped playing Tallulah Bankhead she was tremendous, and the play was hysterically funny

r78 Richard was husband #1, Tony #2

Richard Schaal had big fuckin Chicago dick energy. Valerie probably needed her dance training to keep up with him in bed.

Lucky Val.

Tony who?

Here's the Valerie Wikipedia article which has all sorts of info one might be curious about.

Richard Schaal seemed to be one of those actors in lots of shows.....someone somewhere tried many times to make him happen but it never quite ignited.

He was the James Wolk of his day, I suppose.

R54, I forgot what book it was, but I remembered reading someone cattily observe that Walker was the ultimate fag hag during her early years. If she saw a gay guy, she'd try to bed him.

Since we're talking about Stern, I wanted to post this video of Valerie and Stuttering John which starts about 6:30. She is so sweet and empathetic that Stuttering John doesn't seem to know how to react. They start talking about stuttering and she commends him for bringing this to the public and facing it head on. John asks for a hug afterwards and seems genuinely charmed.

BTW, Stern and Valerie had some type of pact where they shared a secret word that only they would know, ala Houdini and if someone guessed it, it would have been because she told them in her afterlife.

R85, I remember him as Barbara Feldon's artist boyfriend in the TV movie LET'S SWITCH. Barbara Eden was the other female lead with smelly Pat Harrington as her husband.

[quote] They tried to make her into a 'leading character' but she didn't catch on with audiences after two seasons and two cast changes.

Actually, the first season of "Phyllis" in 1975-6 highly successful, and the show was #6 in the Nielsen ratings for all television shows that year. They make reference to its success in Orson Welles's voiceover in "network," and there an installment of the original "Tales of the City" where Brian goes into a bar in san Francisco and everyone is gathered there to watch an episode of "Phyllis."

The first episode was a huge success in particular, because it was unimaginable to most people that Phyllis could sruvive on her own without Lars's money after he died, and the network had already spilled this would be the premise.

The show did run into bad luck. First the fine comic actress Barbara Colby, who played Phyllis's boss, was randomly murdered by a drive-by shooter in Los Angeles , and had to be replaced by Liz Torres, who wasn't nearly as funny. Then when things weren't working, they changed Phyllis's job for the second season and added many people for the supporting cast. Audiences started to respond really well to Phyllis's interactions the second season with Mother Dexter, played by the hilarious Judith Lowry, but then midway through the second season lowry died. So then they decided to give up because they couldn;t figure out any way to save the ratings.

It had first-rate writing on the show quite often though, and many people on Datalounge will speak very fondly of the famous episode "Phyllis and the Little People" with Billy Barty as the father of Bess's new boyfriend. It has one of the funniest ever scenes from 70s sitcoms when Phyllis's dopey workmate Leo asks her why she's depressed, and she replies, "Bess wants to marry a boy whose parents are midgets," and Leo responds, "Has she found one yet?" (The dialogue continues further from there and gets crazier and crazier.)

Phyllis was more of a farce and the character was like Lucy in that everything she did backfired. It also had the very great luck of having the Charles brothers doing the writing for many episodes.

We've discussed so many others, I thought it'd be nice to acknowledge Harold Gould, who played Rhoda's dad. A good actor and very handsome man:

Harold Gould was one of the oldest hottest daddy types on TV in the 1970s. He did a memorable scene as a mob boss by a swimming pool, on Hawaii 5-0, in a speedo. He kept himself in great shape. And he was a talented TV actor. Did everything.

Maybe he was younger than he played? Too lazy too look it up.

For me, the very best part of PHYLLIS was that opening theme, The panorama of unflattering facial expressions is a little piece of genius. I need to see it again.

Nancy Walker was in her 40s playing Ida Morgenstern. She looked 70. And died years later at the age of 69. She was like Thelma Ritter's twin - born at 50.

I always found MTM too prissy. Rhoda was more fun.

I found Walker's odd looking forehead and heavily triagular, pronounced widow's peak to be somewhat of a visual distraction at times.

When I smoked weed, probably.

I love the "Ida the Elf" episode.

[quote] For me, the very best part of PHYLLIS was that opening theme, The panorama of unflattering facial expressions is a little piece of genius. I need to see it again.

R92 Particularly because those shots of Phyllis were interposed with a line of dapper chorus boys singing a cross between “Mame” and “Hello Dolly.” The first time I saw that opening in 1975, I thought it was the gayest TV show opening I’d ever seen.

For some odd reason, back on the mid 70's, Allen Carr hired Nancy to direct the DL Camp Classic Can't Stop the Music. I saw some interview with Valerie Perrine, (not that long ago), and she discussed how Walker was so useless as a director, Perrine had her banned from directing any scenes she was in. She said all Walker did most afternoons was stay in her dressing room and watch tv soap operas.

Glad someone else loves it and sees it r96

R89 A major reason why the first season of 'Phyllis' was so successful was because it aired right after the second season of 'Rhoda' on Monday nights, and right before 'All In The Family' (which moved to Mondays at 9 pm from their Saturday at 8 pm slot) and 'Maude' (which moved to Mondays at 9:30 from its Tuesdays at 9:30 spot). CBS created quite the 'comedy block ' for those two hours , aimed at women viewers while ABC oared the traditional 'men's programming' (football in the fall, baseball in the spring). CBS ended the night at 10 pm with 'Medical Center' starring hunky Chad Everett. "Rhoda", "Phylllis", "AITF" and "Maude" all made it into the Top 10 for the season - it was a successful move from CBS.

The following season, 'Rhoda' tumbled in the ratings and brought down 'Phyllis' with it, so the network moved those two to Sunday nights at 8 pm / 8:30 pm. Once they moved to Sundays, the ratings for 'Rhoda' improved, but 'Phyllis' never did, continuing it's drop in the ratings. In March, 1977 CBS renewed 'Rhoda' for a fourth season, but canceled 'Phyllis' which aired its last series episode days before Leachman was on 'The Mary Tyler Moore Show' for that series last episode.

Nancy Walker was best friends with Montgomery Clift.

She was born in 1922 (the same year as Judy Garland, who died in 1969 at 47. She was one month older than Judy.) So when she was on Rhoda, she couldn't have been in her 40s. Rhoda ran from 1974 to 1978, so Walker was 52-56 on the show.

Replying to R93^

For those of you who've never seen it before, here are both the famous intro and outro for "Phyllis." One thing that really helps make it funny is how fiercely Cloris Leachman commits to the character in the shots of her wandering around San Francisco.

The Emmys were on ABC and broadcast from the then new Shubert Theater in Century City. One of my friend's brothers was an usher there. He saw Valerie Harper in her seat and completely broke protocol by running up to her before the show began and saying '"Miss Harper, I'm a huge fan of yours and I hope you win the Emmy". Harper pinched him on the cheek and said "You little honey". He could have been fired but he said it would have been worth it for a memory he'd keep forever.

Remember when Norman Fell played a doctor who wanted to date married Ida Morgenstern? Oy vey!

R104- Norman Fell's character on Three's Company could never or rarely get it up for his Caftan wearing wife. He seems queer to me now and probably had the hots for Jack Trapper inspite of his homophobic remarks towards him.

[quote]Particularly because those shots of Phyllis were interposed with a line of dapper chorus boys singing a cross between “Mame” and “Hello Dolly.”

It's in that weird tint because the original showed them in blackface.

Nancy '55

I loved Rhoda on MTM and I loved her own show at first, but as much as I didn't want to I ended up siding with Joe in a lot of their arguments because Rhoda's insecurities got OLD. But on the other hand she was often kind of smug and know-it-all with Brenda because she'd lost weight (not that she'd had much to lose) and gotten a man. It was kind of a weird dichotomy.

And she lost SO much more weight during the run of the show, in the later seasons she was almost skeletal. Brenda also lost a lot of weight.

This show's whole viewpoint seemed to be about losing weight being something you had to do to be happy, but even when you did you weren't necessarily going to be happy.

I also could not stand Ida. Nasty little troll.

It's next Tuesday, OP, so it's a good time to tell you that Val thought you were a cunt.

"Worse than Leachman," she'd say.

Rhoda is such an odd choice of name for a character, or living person. I have never known one IRL, although I did come across a Reba. It means "from Rhodes". Was there any explanation as to why the character was called Rhoda?

There is another infamous Rhoda making it even stranger. The Bad Seed Rhoda.

There's Rhoda Dendron.

I rewatched the first two episodes last night because of this thread.

It was clear the writers didn't really have a handle on Rhoda until Valerie handed it to them with her performance. Episode 2 (not coincidentally, written by a woman) played to Valerie's characterization.

I love Nancy but it saddened me to hear that she was a bitch to Estelle Getty on the Bounty Commercials

RHODA held the rare distinction of being the only show to have the same theme song for five seasons played a different way each season.

Not a lot of her dancing out there.

[quote]RHODA held the rare distinction of being the only show to have the same theme song for five seasons played a different way each season.

I beg your fucking pardon?

ALICE theme didn't change every season.

[quote]RHODA held the rare distinction of being the only show to have the same theme song for five seasons played a different way each season.

What about THE COSBY SHOW's 8 seasons?

The theme song was played in a different musical style each season, with an accompanying dance.

One year it was jazz, one year it was calypso, one year it was hip hop, and so on.

[quote] ALICE theme didn't change every season.

Boppity bop!

Bless your heart, r118. I guess you weren’t around for the great Datalounge breakdown of every variation Linda Lavin did for the theme song and end credits every season

R34. Allison Janney as C.J. Craig.

R121 Neither was I!

Kelsey Grammer's 'Frasier Crane' was nominated twice (1988, 1990) as "Supporting Actor in a Comedy Series" for CHEERS, and won four times (1994, 1995, 1998, 2004) as "Lead Actor in a Comedy Series" for FRASIER.

Interestingly, in 1992, he was also nominated as "Lead Actor in a Comedy Series" for guest-starring as 'Frasier' on an episode of WINGS, which many people don't know existed in the same universe as CHEERS although it was not a direct spinoff.

That was a weird year when the Emmys inexplicably got rid of the "Guest Actor/Actress" categories, so people who guested on shows were nominated in the "Lead/Supporting" categories.

Also in 1992, the following actors were nominated in the regular categories for their guest-starring roles:

- Tyne Daly as "Lead Actress in a Comedy Series" for WINGS

- Harvey Fierstein as "Supporting Actor in a Comedy Series" for CHEERS

- Jay Thomas as "Supporting Actor in a Comedy Series" for MURPHY BROWN

- Frances Sternhagen as "Supporting Actress in a Comedy Series" for CHEERS

- Christopher Lloyd as "Lead Actor in a Drama Series" for ROAD TO AVONLEA (he actually won)

- Harrison Page as "Lead Actor in a Drama Series" for QUANTUM LEAP

- Kirk Douglas as "Lead Actor in a Drama Series" for TALES FROM THE CRYPT

- Shirley Knight as "Lead Actress in a Drama Series" for LAW & ORDER

- Kate Nelligan as "Lead Actress in a Drama Series" for ROAD TO AVONLEA

- Jimmy Smitas as "Supporting Actor in a Drama Series" for L.A. LAW (he had departed as a series regular in 1991)

- Richard Kiley as "Supporting Actor in a Drama Series" for THE RAY BRADBURY THEATER

- Valerie Mahaffrey as "Supporting Actress in a Drama Series" for NORTHERN EXPOSURE

- Barbara Barrie as "Supporting Actress in a Drama Series" for LAW & ORDER

[quote] I rewatched the first two episodes last night because of this thread. It was clear the writers didn't really have a handle on Rhoda until Valerie handed it to them with her performance. Episode 2 (not coincidentally, written by a woman) played to Valerie's characterization.

R113 If you’re referring to the MTM Show, it’s worth noting that the second-aired episode was not the originally-intended second episode.

Rhoda’s meanness did not play well with the audience that previewed the first version of the first episode. The writers then added Bess referring to Rhoda as “Aunt Rhoda” to try to make Rhoda more likable.

Then, they switched a later episode for airing as episode 2 in which Rhoda had been written as more likable. That’s not to say that Valerie wasn’t brilliant playing Rhoda, but the writers did help her make Rhoda more likable so that her friendship with Mary would make more sense to viewers.

How was the reunion movie, “Mary & Rhoda”? I’ve actually never seen it — the night it originally aired, I had just moved to New York from Texas and had a small TV that could only pick up one station clearly (and static on all the rest).

[quote]How was the reunion movie, “Mary & Rhoda”?

Like the Frasier revival, it's best not discussed in polite company and certainly isn't part of the canon.

I remember that I watched it, r126. It was...nice.

When MTM guest stars in Rhoda S2, at least 3 characters comment that she has put on weight. I didn't understand that. Mary was wearing fitted white pants and looked curvier than usual but was in no way overweight. Was there some crossover plot point front the MTM show?

Three characters tell her she's put on weight, r129??? How rude.

I thunk you're lying about your location, r117. You are clearly in Hell!

I served her at a private semi-star studded fundraiser at a big theater producer's River House apartment and she literally was Rhoda Morgenstern. She was charming and funny and very down to earth with everybody. I heard her re-introduce herself to a less famous actor who didn't recall working with her years earlier and she was very sweet about it.

I loved Valerie.

100s of channels and not one has rerun any MTM shows for decades.

I love that early episode where she brings her date to Mary’s party. Mr. and Mrs. Armand Lynton.