Sullivan on Trans -- NYT gift article

You beat me to the punch! I was just about to hit send.

Read it boys, and let the discussion commence…

The words gay and lesbian all but disappeared. L.G.B.T. became L.G.B.T.Q., then L.G.B.T.Q.+, and more letters and characters kept being added: L.G.B.T.Q.I.A.+ or 2S.L.G.B.T.Q.I.A.+ (to include intersex, asexual people and two-spirit Indigenous people). The plus sign referred to a seemingly infinite number of new niche identities, and, by some counts, more than 70 new “genders.”

…

They needed a new banner for that. So the rainbow flag, invented back in 1978 at the request of Harvey Milk, was replaced over the last few years by a new “Progress” flag, representing intersectional oppression. Black and brown stripes were added to the rainbow — for Black and brown people (and the people lost during the AIDS crisis) — and pink, light blue and white for trans people. That flag now demarcates a place not simply friendly to all types of people, as the old rainbow flag did, but a place where anyone who does not subscribe to intersectional left ideology is unwelcome.

….

As I watched all this radical change, I wondered, was I just another old fart, shaking my fist at the sky, like every older generation known to man? Why not just accept that the next gay and lesbian generation has new ideas, has moved on, and old-timers like me should just move aside?

….

But abolishing the sex binary for the entire society? That’s a whole other thing entirely. And madness, I believe. What if I redefined what it is to be heterosexual and imposed it on straight people? Or changed what it means to be a man or a woman, for that matter? Then it ceases to be accommodation of a minority and becomes a societywide revolution — an overreach that would soon lead to a potent and sane backlash, against not just trans people, but gay men and lesbians as well.

It's a gift article -- no need to paste the text here.

Holy smokes, that is a long article.

I have to admit, after the first half, I only skimmed it.

Some people just have to go on and on...

Just a couple of quotes to pique interest. No big deal…

ChatGPT sez: "Here’s a concise 3-bullet summary of the article:

Major Civil Rights Victories Achieved: The gay rights movement secured historic wins in the 2010s, including nationwide marriage equality and anti-discrimination protections under Title VII. Public support for gay and trans rights also reached record highs.

Shift Toward Radical Gender Ideology: After achieving its core goals, major LGBTQ+ organizations embraced more radical gender politics, prioritizing identity over biology and focusing on children’s gender transition, leading to internal dissent and public backlash.

Backlash and Declining Support: Growing public concern about youth gender transitions and perceived overreach has eroded support for LGBTQ+ causes, especially among moderates and conservatives. The author calls for a return to liberal principles, debate, and evidence-based care."

As I type, a concentration camp is being constructed in the swamps of the Everglades, the first of many planned by the Trump administration. The camp is virtually escape proof because its surrounded by alligator and python infested woods.

You will excuse me for saying we all have much bigger fish to fey at this point, and that this incessant arguing over the size of a pin head really is self defeating.

R10 link, please.

No one cares about a chatbot summary—useless

^^^My question is, how will the employees get there --small planes?

Just curious.

Actually, Chatbot is useful at letting me know that everything Sullivan argues is just what we've chewed over and over again here at the Datalounge. We can skip the article.

You can skip the thread. No one here will mind.

Why read anything anymore, eh?

What do you do when you agree with someone you don’t like?

I’m at a loss.

He hits all the right wing talking points and doesn’t even acknowledge that there are alternate views to what he believes.

[Quote] “But abolishing the sex binary for the entire society? “

But to change the definition of marriage for the entire society?

The gay rights movement went through all the same issues with regards to society that the trans rights movement is going through.

He pretends trans rights is the first time we’re gone through a civil rights movement

It’s like he’s the DL anti-trans troll

R17, you just agree.

R18, he's right about the European models. And what are those alternative views?

I think it’s very smart.

He's got the same relentlessness and fixation over trivia

Well that was a big milky load.

And no comments section, useless.

He's such an embarrassment. Perfectly at home at the New York Times. Their editorial section has been a joke for years.

He’s in the opinion section not the editorial page.

[quote]He hits all the right wing talking points and doesn’t even acknowledge that there are alternate views to what he believes.

He believes intelligence is race based. Andrew Sullivan was always a right-wing conservative. Nothing is shocking here, especially his complete alignment with the conservative transphobic trolls on DL.

He should really stick to laying ass up in the dunes

I can't stand Sullivan on many points, but this is an excellent article.

Perfectly describing how the excesses of gender ideology has damaged LGT rights,.

I got about 1/3 through and then remembered I wanted to defrost some chicken thighs.

[quote] The gay rights movement went through all the same issues with regards to society that the trans rights movement is going through.

I don’t remember the gay rights movement endorsing medical interventions for minors. I don’t remember gays and lesbians denying the biological differences between males and females.

All OP did was link to an article and now he's grayed out to me. Sigh.

This FF shit is getting out of control on DL.

R33 also, gay activists distanced themselves from children, whereas the trans/nonbinary movement specifically targets them.

Agree 100%. And quite telling that the link is already grayed out. Afraid of the debate?

R36 try harder —do better. Comments section is in fact open.

R26^^

R36 - you're not aloud to debate or talk about anything on a Gay and Lesbian message board that impacts the Gay and Lesbian community. You only have gay rights because of Marcia and Sylvia at Stonewall, which is not up for debate either.

And besides - you need to step aside and let the alphabet soup take over and lead your parades, organizations and politics because it's only fair after decades of you gays and lesbians keeping everyone else down.

If you don't agree or abide by these simple rules for your behavior, then you are a Republican, conservative, Nazi AND a TERF. It's easy.

Not grayed out…

It wasn’t open at first, R37. Cast thyself into a grease fire.

As is the case with other opinion pieces. Pay attention.

[quote]The gay rights movement went through all the same issues with regards to society that the trans rights movement is going through.

And yet they seem to have learned none of the lessons from the various gay rights struggles from the last few decades about how to run a successful civil rights campaign.

Even if you support the trans movement wholeheartedly, it's clear that whatever they're doing isn't working. They're just not convincing people who might be otherwise be sympathetic to them.

I prefer to NOT pay attention to the failing New York Times.

Thank you for your lack of attention to this very important mattter.

So interesting that no one here is refuting anything Sullivan wrote, instead using the very Trumpian technique of trying to change the subject.

Andrew Sullivan is a racist shitstain and there's nothing new worth commenting on in his screed. He's always been a right wing conservative, a moralizing hypocrite, and an embarrassment to gay people, gay men in particular.

This is the main point in my view:

[quote] (it) was no longer primarily about gay, lesbian and transgender civil rights, because almost all had already been won. It was instead about a new and radical gender revolution. Focused on ending what activists saw as the oppression of the sex binary, which some critical gender and queer theorists associated with “white supremacy,” they aimed to dissolve natural distinctions between men and women in society, to replace biological sex with “gender identity” in the law and culture, and to redefine homosexuality, in the process, not as a neutral fact of the human condition but as a liberating ideological “queerness” meant to subvert and “queer” language, culture and society in myriad different ways.

Does anyone disagree with what he points out? Does anyone thing the broadening of the gay rights organizations' missions helped or was even pertinent to gay rights?

[quote]you're not aloud

Ah, R39 -- but are we allowed to do it softly?

R49 - touche - but no - just keep it inside, learn how to hide your feelings.

What is Sullivan now, 78 years old?

R47, proving my point.

the comments are pretty damn supportive of Sullivan's argument

Well, it's the New York Times, hon.

R54 would say the same thing no matter where the article was published. Very predictable - no argument, no response - just criticize and dismiss.

R54 their subscriber base is larger and more diverse than any comparable news media in the US.

So the arguments against the article seem to come down to: eww, Andrew Sullivan. eww, the New York Times. ewww, anyone to the right of me on this issue.

Any actual arguments? Anyone want to address anything real? Anyone think the current Trans Rights Activist strategy is working, in any way whatsoever?

Working for who?

I saw it on an international listserv this morning. The poster, a Dutchman fluent in English living in SE Asia totally misunderstood what Sullivan was saying.

Sullivan conflates all kinds of things here and cherry picks anecdotes. the whole thing comes together only to the extent that you are aware of his pre-existing prejudices.

Sullivan now has the face of a relocated priest

I'm probably on his side (no, I did not read the article), I'm just so bored with this topic.

It's been argued for years and years and years. No one's mind is being changed either way at this point.

Was there any mention made of beagles?

I’m waiting to hear what Condi has to say….

But that's just it r61. Minds probably could be changed, and there could be gradual acceptance if the Trans Rights movement weren't so fucking suicidal and ridiculous at every stage. Start with the proposition that a few, very few, people are born somehow in the wrong sex for what they are deep inside. I suspect most people can accept that, and go from there to questions about well, what accommodations can be made for those people.

Don't turn it into some moronic quest to erase all sex and gender from society, and pretend that everybody is arbitrarily assigned some mystical "gender" at birth, pretty much on whim. Don't pretend that what happens to trans people is simply a part of a larger story that happens to the 99.9 percent of people who aren't Trans.

R64 I agree and respectfully disagree with R61.

How we got here was gays and lesbians acting in good faith and trying to be understanding and accepting. Many in the community still have a knee-jerk reflex of support.

There's a big line between being supportive and just allowing people to do whatever they want and to demonize others who don't agree.

Many groups are really trying to bully others - and too many are just stepping back and giving them that power. Nope.

There's a limit to what you can expect - you cannot expect the entire world to complete change around the habits of a few and yell at them for not doing it.

He quotes DL fave and girl with a mustache Chase Strangio:

[quote]A key leader of this movement, Chase Strangio, informed us that “a penis is not a male body part. It’s just an unusual body part for a woman.”

That’s not ridiickulous in the least 😵‍💫👽

R65, it's the anti-trans people who are doing the bullying.

R66, who cares? They make up .6% of the population. You want to know the REAL reason most people support gay marriage now? Because there aren't that many of us. Remember when conservatives said that gay marriage was going to "take over"? It didn't. If it had - if people were just as likely to enter into gay marriages as straight marriages - they'd be against it.

R68 - you can't categorize everything being said about trans politics as bullying. There are those that are true bullies - MGT and the like - and those that are not on board with changing language, allowing trans in high school/college/pro sports, etc.

It's not all the same and you know that. How is it bullying to say pregnant women and not 'people who get pregnant'?

Your sweeping demonization of anyone who has anything critical to say of trans politics is part of the problem and is exactly what people are fed up with. If anything, it's the likes of YOU who are bullying others.

R68 second point makes no sense.

R70, no, it makes perfect sense

I remember conservatives claiming that straight men would pretend to be gay to get married and get benefits, like in that stupid Adam Sandler movie. Of course that didn't happen, since most straight men would rather die than have people think they're gay. We didn't "take over" - the number of gay marriages is dwarfed by the number of straight marriages. Gay marriage didn't change the fact that most people primarily see marriage as something between a man and a woman

And a handful of trans people talking about gender binaries won't change the way the average person sees gender.

Andrew Sullivan is always wrong about everything.

The trans movement, which is to say the former gay rights movement that a lot of us supported for decades, has made it so that there’s no discussion to be had on this issue. You either acquiesce in full or you are a bigot. Just look at the social media replies to the Sullivan piece. There’s no effort to reply to his claims. It’s just personal attacks and trite lines.

I didn’t see gender critical feminists making rape and death threats that TRA’s did.

The “that never happens” argument doesn’t really fly when you see it happening.

R72, Sullivan is the one engaging in personal attacks. He has made a whole career out of attacking people. Remember when he lectured gay men for being too promiscuous when he seeks out anonymous unprotected sex? Conservatives said the same thing about gays. "Why can't I be against gay marriage without being called a bigot? Huh?"

R73, I see plenty of conservatives threatening LGBT people every day. That's what these "gender critical feminists" are - conservatives.

[quote] Andrew Sullivan is always wrong about everything.

Really? So he was wrong to promote gay marriage long before most gay activists were doing it? Weird.

And no, what actually won the argument was that gay marriage pretty much proved that it would operate like straight marriage, with a few adjustments that only apply to ourselves. When I got married, I considered him my husband, and he considered me his husband. A little adjustment to the usual "husband and wife" terminology, but really just applying to us and other gay couples. What we didn't do was run all over the country demanding that everyone drop "husband" and "wife" and switch to "Spousal Unit 1" and "Spousal Unit 2." Some radicals did want that shit, but fortunately everyone told them to shut the fuck up and sit the fuck down.

R75, actually conservatives complained about birth certificates saying "parent #1" and "parent #2" instead of mother and father. But, guess, what it doesn't affect your life if a marriage certificate says "spousal unit 1" so why would anyone give a shit?

Perhaps you need to stop worrying about things that don't affect your life one bit

R75, do you also lecture gay men for being too promiscuous while seeking out milky loads?

Do you prop up homophobic candidates and vote for them?

That's what Andrew Sullivan has done

R71 - a handful? Once again you are minimizing and dismissing all arguments.

Why does .6% of the population (which I'm skeptical of anyway, I really don't think 1 in 200 are trans) get to change the language for everyone? People who menstruate, people who get pregnant, people who get prostate cancer, 'cis' men and 'cis' women.

Why do high school and college women have to give up championship titles because a non-transitioned male wants to play in the same event? And don't dismiss and say it's only happened a few times - it doesn't matter. Those girls/women earned those titles.

You really don't have any defense except to call people names and that they are close-minded and bigoted.

Many of you see this issue only through the talking points that organizations like GLAAD have fed you. I know because I used to be the same way. It’s by design that they’ve done this. They don’t want you thinking critically about it because so much of it falls apart under criticism.

R69, but you're on the same side as MTG. If she's a bully...so are you. As a proud liberal, I will never side with conservatives and I'd never suck up to the people who fought against gay rights

R78, that's what conservatives said about gay marriage. "Why do the have to call it a marriage? Why can't we have civil unions?"

Maybe I do, r76, but the Trans Rights Movement should start worrying about itself and whether it intends to keep fucking up relentlessly at every opportunity. And the truth is, it's starting to blow back on the rest of us, as people start taking that LGBTQ nonsense seriously and blaming ALL of us for the fucking nonsense of Chase Strangio and Dylan Mulvaney. So I really do hope they stop their bullshit, not just for their own sake, but for everybody's.

R68 is about to get his allies on here and FF all of us to get us a 48 hour time out. Watch.

May be time to give him a bit of his own medicine. FF him since he won't allow any discussion or criticism.

R79 is using the talking points that the right has fed to him. He will never challenge what he hears on Fox News

R81, I hate to break this to you, but most Americans don't know who the fuck Chase Strangio is. You conservatives really live in a bubble

R82, you conservatives are the ones doing. You give Flames and Freaks votes to people who have liberal views and don't go along with conservative talking points like you do. I bet you're going to vote Flames and Freaks on my post right now. Hypocrite

Sorry for refusing to side with social conservatives on a fucking gay board. I'll never side with homophobes like MTG and voting F&F for my posts won't change that

They don't need to know who Chase Strangio is r83. They just need to hear that the Trans reject gender and want the law to reject gender and hear that the dumbfucks in the Trans Rights movements are fighting to end gender and they think penises are just an "unusual body part" for women to start believing that the entire Trans rights movement, and the entire LGBTQ movement is completely full of shit and should probably just go away.

That is the dumbfuck political strategy you have adopted and you should end it.

The earlier and strongest arguments against trans activism came from lesbians on the left. Long before the right really cared all that much. The trend continues, with lifelong liberals like Martina Navratilova and JK Rowling. I know a lot of you need to convince yourself that this is a rightwing cause since the far right includes trans in their basket of “others” who they hate, but it’s not where most of us are coming from.

R83 and all his previous posts is the walking embodiment of the type of all or nothing approach we are all talking about. There is no compromise until everything is bend to the knee for trans and how they perceive life.

It's offensive to both the right and left.

And of course on cue, he says anyone who disagrees is a conservative and a Republican along the lines of Margorie Taylor Greene.

No self-awareness whatsoever.

R85, JK Rowling isn't a liberal. She retweets comments from far right activists like Michael Walsh

Of course Rowling is a liberal. This isn’t high school and you don’t categorise people because of who they talk to/retweet.

But, but, the Committee of DumbFucks and Cunts has determined that JK Rowling is double plus ungood and, like, totally uncool, you guys! What are you saying? That the Committee is wrong??? Unclean! Unclean!!!

Studies show the more educated you are, the more likely you are to support trans rights (same goes for gay rights, btw)

Did transphobes and Andrew Sullivan fans all drop out of high school?:

Younger individuals, women, people with higher levels of education, and people with higher incomes are more approving of transgender rights.

This entire debate and the radicalization of both the left and the right on this topic is fucking exhausting. In the past six months I've dumped more gay contacts than straight contacts because of their "there would be no LGB if it wasn't for the T" stance. As an eldergay, I know that's simply not true and honestly, I'm fucking sick of the Gay Inc propaganda machine.

R68 Jesus take a breath and go outside for a walk or something. You don’t own the thread.

"This isn’t high school and you don’t categorise people because of who they talk to/retweet."

So we shouldn't judge people if, say, they continually retweet Neo Nazis? For a "feminist" she sure loves propaganda films made by anti-feminist conservatives.

Btw, Matt Walsh is also extremely anti-gay

r92, why don't you do the same? How much time have you devoted to hating trans people and defending conservatives?

Well if The Williams Institute says it’s so. 🙄

Weird, JK's buddy really hates gays. I wonder why a supposedly liberal feminist would fawn over a hommophobe? So strange

r95 believes everything Andrew Sullivan says. And Fox News, too

Post the link again. OP has already been banned.

R68 also by stamping your feet, replying to nearly every post telling everyone they are so very wrong you are just proving his points. I know trans people who I like. You aren’t one of them. You are clearly unhinged.

Educated does not mean intelligence.

That’s from 2016 R90 before Lia Thomas peaked the world, before pediatric gender transition became a huge issues, before IT’S MAAMM, before putting transitioning men in women’s prisons became a story because they were raping biological women, before TRANS WOMEN ARE WOMEN has to be indisputable, before autistic girls started cutting their tits off and larping as gay men.

Great, no changes needed r90. Everything is going perfectly and the stupidest political strategy in history is proceeding on course. No notes, and certainly no need for anybody to rethink any dumb fucking thing ever, cause worldwide SURVEY.

But speaking of surveys:

[quote] When people who know a trans person personally were polled, only 40 percent in 2021 supported their competing in teams that matched their gender identity; by 2023, that dropped to 30 percent.

Must be all the people who dropped out of high school in two years.

Gender trumps sex so lesbians should be fine with a bio man cosplaying as a woman because trans women are women.

Actually, education does correlate with intelligence. Why do you think conservatives are going after Harvard and higher education? They hate smart people

They also think picking on minorities will improve their lives. Scapegoating is what dumb people do.

[Quote] I don’t remember the gay rights movement endorsing medical interventions for minors.

Just as the right uses minors against trans rights, they also used it against gay marriage.

We have been accused of being pedophiles for forever

r101 thinks winning a college sports competition is "peaking the world"

Are you Riley Gaines? Do you also support Trump the Rapist while pretending to care about women's rights?

Women in prison are more likely to be raped by straight male prison guards. Strange that "feminists" like JK Rowling aren't concerned about that

The biggest problems with these anti/trans laws is they don’t offer any alternative.

No trans won’t go to the bathrooms that correspond to the gender of their birth. They’re sitting ducks in prisons, They should be able to play sports somehow.

[Quote] A little adjustment to the usual "husband and wife" terminology

WE saw it as “little adjustments” but the right saw it as an earthquake. Everything he is accusing the trans rights people of doing wrong is EXACTLY what the gay rights people did. The ONLY reason gays won, is there are more gays. There are gays in every family, in every worjplace

[Quote] as people start taking that LGBTQ nonsense seriously and blaming ALL of us for the fucking nonsense of Chase Strangio and Dylan Mulvaney.

Don’t know who Chase is but the “fucking nonsense” of Dylan Mulvaney was ALL caused by the hateful right. Dylan did nothing wrong but be who she is

[Quote] Trans Rights movements are fighting to end gender and they think penises are just an "unusual body part"

Fringe views like this only stay in academic circles and never reach the general population. Left wing feminists claim the exact same thing about penises but no one is going crazy or it. No one is blaming all women and say they shouldn’t have rights because of it

Dylan is a grifting man.

If you think Lia Thomas and Laurel Hubbards stories were exclusively covered by only right wing groups you are fucking delusional.

So since women are going to get raped in prison anyways we should let trans women share a cell with biological woman. Why don’t you take a guess as to why trans men aren’t clamoring to go into a men’s prison? 20% of the prison population is in for sex crimes, women it’s 2%, trans women it’s near or just past 50%. Most people with half a brain understand that most men don’t rape, but most rapes are committed by men. Trans women are biological men.

[Quote] Dylan is a grifting man.

Anyone on social media is a “grifter”? Okay.

No one is forcing you to give her money

[Quote] So since women are going to get raped in prison anyways we should let trans women share a cell with biological women.

No, there is not epidemic of rape in women’s prisons from trans. The rape is usually from the guards.

So what’s your alternative suggestion?

[Quote] 20% of the prison population is in for sex crimes, women it’s 2%, trans women it’s near or just past 50%.

Because prostitution is considered a sex crime and trans women often have no other options.

Yes Dylan is a grifter, a failed actor and attention whore who wasn’t getting anywhere professionally. He’s no different than the bachelorette contestant that pretended to transition last year and people took seriously.

Don’t put trans women in men’s prisons. That’s it that’s the solution.

Interesting how it went from “we want to protect kids” to “trans are criminals.”

Those “let’s protect the kids” anti-trans laws are Trojan Horses just like Don’t Say Gay laws are. Those laws were pushed as protecting kindergartens and then suddenly they got extended to high schools

[Quote] Don’t put trans women in men’s prisons. That’s it that’s the solution.

We agree

[Quote] Yes Dylan is a grifter, a failed actor and attention whore who wasn’t getting anywhere professionally.

There are literally millions of people who fit that description. But you focus your hate on her because she’s trans

No R114 they are sex offenders, rapists and pedophiles. No prostitutes don’t get labeled as sex offenders

A failed actor? Sounds like this conservative

R61: You're unwilling to read the article but you whine anyways. Read rather than make uninformed comments.

"Why don’t you take a guess as to why trans men aren’t clamoring to go into a men’s prison?"

Because they get raped in prison. Gay men are also targeted for prison rape

R118 probably defend Lily Contino as well. Who are all the other failed actors who transed?

ALL kinds of men are targeted for rape in prison R122. Try again. A 5’2 man with a pussy wouldn’t stand a chance. Trans men aren’t being asked to be moved into men’s prisons.

And he pulls another piece of crap out of his ass.

R109 For clicks. Dylan does it for clicks and nothing else.

[quote] Almost all of the gay men, trans people and lesbians who have confided in me that they don’t agree with this, or think that J.K. Rowling or Martina Navratilova have some good points, have said so sotto voce lest anyone overhear.

This is such a believable claim. I am sure he has [italic]many[/italic] trans and lesbian confidantes.

Why is it unbelievable, R127? I’ve had this experience countless times, not only from LGB people, but also from liberal straight friends who, when they sense I’m receptive, spill their guts about how much they oppose trans ideas. It’s also why DL, one of the few fully anonymous gay forums, is filled with gender critical pushback. When gay people and like minds are free to talk, they do.

People with an interest in the Supreme Court would be aware of Chase Strangio. Ditto those who regularly watch Democracy Now! or PBS News Hour, and anyone reasonably well informed on recent U.S. social issues. Masha Gessen wrote a long profile on Strangio for The New Yorker some years ago. Strangio has also appeared at high-profile events with Laverne Cox and written opinion pieces for The New York Times. He is the go-to guest for many left-of-center outlets when it comes to trans issues. He is well known enough to once have been quite cruelly described as a "convent-school girl who's been cast to play Algernon Moncrieff in 'The Importance of Being Earnest'".

R128 Yes! This! All of it.

r127 needs to check the comments section on Milky Loads’ story to see just how many liberal-leaning readers also agree.

I said I find it incredibly believable, r128. Did you not read what I wrote?

A lot of the responsibility for this fuck up lies with GLAAD in the US and Stonewall in the UK for championing a form of radical trans politics that lacked a support base in the LGBT community and was pitted against reasonable mainstream views of sex, gender and child protection.

It might have been a good fundraising vehicle for a decade but they have driven LGBT rights off a cliff. These elite well-paid “activists” should be held accountable for selling us out.

A lot of that, R133, is because the people at these organizations have been working there forever. They eat, sleep, and breathe this stuff year after year and are incapable of seeing beyond their own press releases. When we won marriage, they thought they could transfer over the goodwill because they had already connected the T internally. It honestly never occurred to them that the public wouldn’t go along.

[quote]They don’t want you thinking critically about it because so much of it falls apart under criticism.

They don’t want you thinking critically about it because all of it falls apart under simple observation.

R133 - my problem with the historically gay and lesbian organizations taking on this fight is two fold.

1) Gays and lesbians cannot understand and advocate on behalf of trans effectively - it needs to be trans people telling their stories and needs to be separate.

2) Conflating LGB history and rights with trans and recent trans politics puts everything into one bucket. The trans politics is so radical and over-reach that it makes us all look unreasonable and unpleasant. And studies are showing people stepping back from LGB support after decades of progress.

The need for LGB organizations still exist - as it still does for NAACP and National Organization for Women (NOW) and other groups who have 'gotten their rights'. It doesn't need to pivot and fold itself into another movement.

But instead, they seem to want to take on everything - not just trans, but non-binary, asexuals, racial issues. I'm surprised they haven't gone into the Palestine/Israel fight yet.

Sullivan's arguments - that everything was fine till those meddlesome kids with their blue hair and pronouns got all uppity - is a rehashed version of the same arguments he was making in the early 90s.

He wants all gays to be as dull and middle class as possible and that way the straights will love us.

His rosy view of Americans' opinions of gay marriage seems almost deliberately naive. And he completely lets the Republican party off the hook. The cynical, malevolent and well-funded hate campaign against trans people gets a pass in his view.

"is a rehashed version of the same arguments he was making in the early 90s" - which were what exactly?

He's also not talking about the Republican party here - it's a larger issue.

Historically, Andrew's batting average is low for me but he does hit on some good points occasionally.

There may be a hate campaign - but there's also more to this issue and that's separate from the obvious haters.

Most of the comments on the NYT comments page agree with him and very few are written with a conservative/right wing slant. There’s a few shout outs to Marsha and Sylvia who of course are the architects and the leaders of the gay liberation movement!

no, he's not saying any of that r137. He's saying that the country went from hating, absolutely hating, the idea of gay marriage to accepting and embracing it. Yes, it turns out a lot of gay people want those "dull and middle class" institutions, like marriage and serving in the army, but it's never been mandatory and you're free to fuck around as much as you want, and not get arrested for it. Nobody is saying you shouldn't have that right. That's actually another big right the gay rights movement fought for.

And what he's also saying is maybe if Trans would stop having stupid fucking causes like "erasing gender" maybe they would also get and even expand real, practical rights, like the right to transition medically and socially to the gender they believe they really are. And no, he's not saying Republicans are, like, awesome you guys. What he's saying is that the big middle that maybe doesn't live and die by their love and devotion to Trump has actually come around. And maybe again, if Trans stop fucking around with their stupid fucking nonsense maybe they too could win over the middle of this country that didn't start off hating them but that is moving in that direction because they suck so much at actually reaching out to anybody who isn't already convinced they're awesome and perfect in every way.

[quote] And maybe again, if Trans stop fucking around with their stupid fucking nonsense maybe they too could win over the middle of this country that didn't start off hating them but that is moving in that direction because they suck so much at actually reaching out to anybody who isn't already convinced they're awesome and perfect in every way.

Now that would be a sentence to diagram, if they still asked you in high school to diagram sentences.

[quote] You will excuse me for saying we all have much bigger fish to fey at this point

Best typo of the week.

[quote]The earlier and strongest arguments against trans activism came from lesbians on the left. Long before the right really cared all that much. The trend continues, with lifelong liberals like Martina Navratilova and JK Rowling. I know a lot of you need to convince yourself that this is a rightwing cause since the far right includes trans in their basket of “others” who they hate, but it’s not where most of us are coming from.

One of my first exposures to this was a Donahue episode back in the day where a panel of butch lesbians faced off against "sex changes" and insisted the sex-change men weren't women.

Someone said he was taking female hormones, to which one of the feisty lesbians replied:

"You can shoot up an apple with orange juice, but it's still an apple."

He runs the gamut from l to g.

R143 - well that kind of backfired on them. Look at all the butch lesbians who have transitioned. Bet they never saw that coming.

What bunch would that be r145? Honestly, are there tons of butch lesbians who are confused about the fact they are women, or is that yet another bullshit Trans fantasy?

[quote]Honestly, are there tons of butch lesbians who are confused about the fact they are women, or is that yet another bullshit Trans fantasy?

The only one I know who fits that description is Pat/Patrick Califia, sex columnist and writer of erotic fiction.

And I should give a flying fuck about what that fat Tory cunt thinks because?...

Fuck. I forget what a TERF is. But I'm a little drunk on gin gimlets, and I might be Carole Lombard.

R148 Because he's far more intelligent than you are, and far better informed.

R149 - Trans Exclusionist Radical Feminist - but you don't have to be any of those things to be called one.

So I guess trans women feel excluded from feminism? I don't understand it either.

[quote]Because he's far more intelligent than you are, and far better informed.

He's been an irrelevant has-been for 20 years.

I swear you Tory Brits will fall for anything.

[quote]There’s a few shout outs to Marsha and Sylvia who of course are the architects and the leaders of the gay liberation movement!

HOW on earth did that 100% lie get in people's heads as truth! ALL straight "allies" are convinced of it! Younger gays (queers!) are strident about bullying those who know the real truth with this trans-leftist GIBBERISH.

Is Stonewall Uprising veteran and proud Vermonter Fred Sargeant a DataLounger? If not, he should be.

killer muscle ass that loves to milk loads with my power glutes

[quote]killer muscle ass that loves to milk loads with my power glutes

Ever the wordsmith!

R153, it really tells you all you need to know. Our movement has taken that absolute lie, confirmed not only by multiple Stonewall vets but also by Marsha and Sylvia themselves, and turned it into a truth. It is propaganda of the highest order.

Did the vast swath of America really accept and embrace it? Really? Is that what this enormous backlash against immigrants and women and everyone not-MAGA has shown?

Sullivan also seems to think that trans activists were passing legislation or handing down imperial proclamations. He's free to ignore them and live his life. But he, like all the other trans-loons, can't seem to relax.

R101 is hilariously unhinged.

The anti-trans loonies are a fucking joke.

And you just got r101 another WW, r159.

Ditto R160

[quote]Is Stonewall Uprising veteran and proud Vermonter Fred Sargeant a DataLounger?

Before Fred it was Jim Fouratt, Stonewall vet who stated calmly that trans were not part of Stonewall and got absolutely canceled for it, despite decades of fighting for gay and lesbian rights.