The problem with gender

Oh ok, earth shattering information, OP.

Sex is assigned at birth. Gender has many expressions that people grow into. We need to stop using these words interchangeably.

Eh, Black women for centuries have been slated with the "too masculine, not feminine" accusation.

And when people say "assigned at birth," what does it even mean? Who is charged with making said assignments--the birth mother/parents? The delivering ob/gyn? The government?

[Quote] Sex is assigned at birth. Gender has many expressions that people grow into. We need to stop using these words interchangeably.

Like jogging and running, sex and gender are actually interchangeable

[Quote] And when people say "assigned at birth," what does it even mean? Who is charged with making said assignments--the birth mother/parents? The delivering ob/gyn? The government?

The Ob says “You have a girl!”

r3 Agreed - "assigned at birth" is a weird way to put it. Isn't it "assigned" during gestation? It just doesn't happen at birth.

Sex is observed at birth.

gender is bullshit.

Do you have a dick or a pussy? That's all you need to know. Who cares if you play with Barbies?

Sex is usually observed prior to birth.

No one is assigned gender. It’s observed and no, gender is not a construct. That nonsense was started by a pedophile who was also responsible for a person killing themselves because they performed a sex change on them as a child. There’s male or female and even those who have the wrong genitalia are still either male or female biologically. Stop being anti-science and accept reality.

Fuck off, Kiwi Cunt.

OP must be executed

[Quote] Who cares if you play with Barbies?

Oddly, the world does

[Quote] There’s male or female and even those who have the wrong genitalia are still either male or female biologically. Stop being anti-science and accept reality.

Ahh, if you want to bring in biology—there are at least 6 genes that contribute to your sex. They express in different ways in different people. Just like identical twins aren’t truly identical—their exact same genes are expressing the same way. Just like human and chimps share 98% the same genes but expressing them differently.

I totally believe there are trans and nonbinary people. They may look make or female on the outside but don’t feel it on the inside. We just assume that males and females must behave specific ways and they dont

"Like jogging and running, sex and gender are actually interchangeable."

They're actually not.

[Quote] Agreed - "assigned at birth" is a weird way to put it.

It’s “assigned” by the doctor who delivers you and by society solely based on your genitals when, in actuality, it’s far more complicated

Interestingly, the Trump administration forbid the use of the word “gender” and says government can only use “sex”—which leads to some unintentionally hilarious moments.

[Quote] Gay men have also been victimized historically we did not fit the pattern assigned to straight men.

This has been used successfully in courts to show that civil rights laws should be extended to LGBT

So r18 believes the rights of gay men should be rescinded in orfer to accomodate her hatred of transgenders.

Thanks for telling us who you really are.

Good bye

No, r14. Save it for your bullshit gender studies course which isn’t based on biology.

The trans issue is settled. Society is against it. Move on and get therapy. Next.

I'm old enough to remember when society was against gays and lesbians.

And also against straight ugly fat chicks. Watch your back r21.

In my day we were tomboys. And we weren’t really picked on for it. There were tons of us.

I played with trucks and Barbies. I had short hair but sometimes wore dresses. What do I cut off now?

R22, I'm old enough to remember when gay men and lesbians hadn't fallen for the gender bullshit and we were very clear on what biological sex is. When gay rights organisations actually used the words lesbian and gay and fought for gay rights, not something else that is actually against the interests of same-sex attracted people.

People can dress how they want and gesture how they want. That does not mean that society should be forced to accept that a biological male is a woman or that a biological female is a man.

It is not the job of lesbians and gay men to fight for laws saying that heterosexual biological men can be lesbians, biological men should be able to compete in women's sports, or that "gender nonconforming" kids, who are very likely to grow up gay, should be put on puberty blockers and physically transed.

I'm not sure why trans want to be in the military. I would count the ban as a blessing: they can never send you into the trenches to lose your limbs. Or die.

They don't want you in there, and I would just do something else with my life.

This is a serious question: What are the terms/words that should be used when want to acknowledge only one's BIOLOGICAL sex? Cis male and cis female?

It's confusing when the terms trans male and trans female are used when someone wants to express themselves as the biological sex they were not born as because they often use biological sex terms (i.e., male and female) as "gender terms."

The semantics of it all is the part I wish could be simpler. Same with the plural term "they" for a singular person (because "he" and/or "she" are words the person wants to discard for themselves).

I understand the need/desire to eschew terms and roles that don't feel right; I honestly think it would be more "accepted by society" if it were easier to understand and label.

First line should read: What are the terms/words that should be used when one wants to acknowledge one's BIOLOGICAL sex only?

[QUOTE]I'm not sure why trans want to be in the military. I would count the ban as a blessing: they can never send you into the trenches to lose your limbs.

But if you've already cut your dick off, what's a few limbs?

Gender is a social construct and is not interchangeable with Sex.

Sex = Male/Female- does not change from birth.

Gender = Man/Woman - changes between societies definition, there constructed by societal forces.

Saying something is a construct doesn’t mean it’s not real. Gender is very real but the idea of man/woman changes over time in different societies. So you can change your gender by becoming the idea of what a society says a woman or man is. But you CAN’T change your sex.

Sex is assigned at birth. Gender is not.

That's kinda true, r30, but it's not possible to be a male by sex and a woman by gender. Society constructs norms for behaviour according to whether we are male or female. Gender roles are not detached from biological sex.

The word "gender" - which previously never had anything to do with man/woman but was more of a grammar term - was introduced by the trans and their advocates in order to deliberately muddy the waters. Prior to the 1970s, only the word sex was used. This is why they changed transsexual to transgender, so they could could make all these pseudo-nuanced claims that you could be a woman even if you had a penis.

[quote]What are the terms/words that should be used when want to acknowledge only one's BIOLOGICAL sex? Cis male and cis female?

This is very easy. The terms for a biological male are man/male and for a biological female they are woman/female. "Cis" is complete bullshit.

R31 I have a transgender friend - male to female. She transitioned when she was 19 years old. She is 53 now. She has lived most of her life as a woman in society. Society sees her as a women. She is passable and un-clockable at this point. BUT if she had to have surgery, doctors would see she is biologically a male.

So she is a woman now that was born a male. But she will never be a female.

A lot of what gender is in a given society is socialized into us at a young age. Some of it is based on biology - like boys are more aggressive, rambunctious. But the whole boys play sports and wear blue and girls want dolls and wear pink is society’s gender confirmation/affirmation. And that changes over time.

Sex is determined at the moment of conception, when daddy's cum his mommy's egg. A sperm can carry either an X chromosome, or a Y chromosome. You are male or female in utero.

Every cell in your body is gendered. We can test any human remains or DNA and determine what sex that person was.

Your body is either male or female. It always has been and it always will be.

Does the delivery team pull a gender from a hat during childbirth?

Your friend isn't a woman and never will be, r33. Your friend is a man and always will be. Wearing make up, making certain gestures and getting cosmetic surgery do not turn a man into a woman. It's offensive to say that all a woman is is a bunch of stereotypical movements, some clothing and makeup. I'm a woman because my sex is female. I don't fulfil stereotypes of what a woman is, however (for a start, I'm a lesbian). Does this mean I'm not a woman?

Your friend doesn't even need to have surgery for specialist doctors to see that he's a man. As soon as he's at home, wearing his comfy clothes or even takes all his clothes off and stops the public performance of what he thinks a woman is, even the blind people who supposedly think he looks like a woman will see him for what he really is. Which is not a woman.

Note: believing that male people are not women is not hate, bigotry or prejudice.

Sex is determined before birth. Ultrasound showing baby with penis means BOY. Sex and Gender are NOT interchangeable.

See that is where you are wrong R36. My friend is a woman. She is not and never will be a female. Everything is performance R36. Gender is performance. Sex is not. Sex is a biological fact. Even females perform being a woman according to what is socially acceptable. Males perform at being men in the same fashion. That's why you "act like a man" and not "act like a male." It's why Aretha wanted to "feel like a natural woman" and not "feel like a natural female." That idea of what a man is or what a woman is, is constructed by society. Human beings are social animals, so these constructs are very powerful and feel almost biological, but they are not. It's why a female who has had a mastectomy will undergo reconstructive surgery because she wants to FEEL more like a woman. But the breast don't make her female, just as my friends breasts don't make her female.

I'm not at all wrong, r38. Your friend is not a woman. Your friend is a man and always will be. Your friend is not a "natural woman" or a woman in any way. All your friend does is try to adhere to certain traditional stereotypes of women. According to the gender sterotypes that your friend adheres to, I am not a woman because, for example, I always wear trousers, never wear makeup and am attracted solely to my own sex (i.e. women). Not having a female body, your friend has practically no real understanding of what it means to be a woman.

Man and woman are just the words used to describe human males and females, like there are words for other male and female mammals, e.g. mare and stallion for horses. Aretha was certainly not referring to "gender identity" when she sang "you make me feel like a natural woman". She was referring to adult human females, not most females and some men who "identify" as women.

I guess it's progress that you and your friend understand that biological sex is a reality and that there are significant differences between male and female. Which means that your friend should understand that transwomen should keep out of women's spaces relating to that biological reality, i.e. sports, changing rooms, prisons.

Since you and your friend are so adamant that he is a woman, perhaps you could tell us what your definition of a woman is?

“Assigned at birth” was appropriated by the trans community from the intersexual community. In the past when babies are born with ambiguous genitalia, doctors would indeed just choose a sex for the baby (sometimes without even consulting the parents) and preform surgeries to make the baby appear that sex no matter what the baby’s chromosomes say and no matter whether such surgeries were medically necessary for improving urological function.

What OP describes as “the assumptions” surrounding the personality characteristics that a given “gender” will exhibit is what others refer to as the social construct of gender. What OP refers to as gender others refer to as sex.

I think that “gender” should be used only to refer to personality types while “sex” should only be used to refer to body types. We really screwed up by shortening the phrase “sexual intercourse” to just “sex”. Without a difference between these two words then the word “transgender” makes no sense at all. I think transgender people want to erase this distinction because they really want to erase themselves, their sense of alienation.

Also, as r38 points out, the words “man” and “woman” are used in many ways to refer to gender (personality) rather than sex (body) even though the definitions are biologically based. But then, our vocabulary surrounding all of this is very cisgender normative. Of course we think men have masculine personality traits and women have feminine personality traits. But what makes a personality trait “masculine” or “feminine”?

Indeed, r2.

'Sex' refers to ACTS. 'Gender' refers to plumbing. 'Orientation' refers to attraction.

Sec refers to genitalia. Gender refers to what is considered behavior under the sex.

Sex refers to more than ACTS, R41 - otherwise gay Baby's bracelets would say TOP or BOTTOM under SEX instead of Male or Female.

I was assigned a Hussy at birth. Yet, later in life, I’ve been referred to as queeny and bitchy. I made a donation to Planned Parenthood that one time.

r43, that's why the bracelets should say 'gender'.

R39, she gets paid less for the same work. I think she knows what it means to be a woman. She has lived as a woman for the past 35 years almost. She has been treated as a woman in society - all the good and the bad that that entails. as R42, gender is what is considered behaviour, it is not the plumbing. Trust me, I am just as shocked as you . Who in their right mind, if born a man would want to become a woman. But it happens.

This is AI's definition of gender at least:

[quote]Gender is a complex concept encompassing social, cultural, and psychological aspects related to being male or female, or other gender identities. It differs from sex, which is typically assigned at birth based on biological characteristics. Gender involves social roles, behaviors, and expressions, and is often categorized as masculine, feminine, or non-binary.

Just as I described it to you. Maybe you should reassess your beliefs R39. Past all of the semantics I ACTUALLY AGREE WITH YOU. But I think you would be better served holding on the the word FEMALE, which is your birthright vs. holding on to the word WOMAN. Because that is more subjective. As you know as a lesbian there are several people who would say, from your description of yourself, that you aren't much or a woman at all. But you are definitely a female.

[Quote] The trans issue is settled. Society is against it. Move on and get therapy. Next.

Exactly what they said about gays and lesbians. Thankfully we didn’t keep fighting

The problem is that everyone stuck with “male” or “female” has to fit those very strict categories exactly or be ostracized.

Society needs to loosen up.

There is such an interplay of chromosomal/biological forces and cultural stereotype-reinforcement forces at work, and it begins in infancy.

If you put a bow on your baby’s head and dress it in baby girl clothes, everyone will coo and ooh at “her” and gush in sugary tones about her adorableness. If you put that same baby in “baby-boy drag” you’ll get some gushing but a different kind of interaction— more varied, more physical (grabbing a finger, etc) and less feminine, Strangers will affectionately call “him” champ, sport, boss, tiger etc. Again: it’s the same baby.

Differences on average between female and male are very real and it starts young; there are reasons that pediatric ER injury visits are significantly higher for boys than for girls, etc. The biological pieces start at conception, DNA shaping destiny. But cultural factors — how we are treated, seen, engaged with — are absolutely a piece of the whole and that piece begins as soon as other humans begin interacting with you.

[Quote] there are reasons that pediatric ER injury visits are significantly higher for boys than for girls, etc. The biological pieces start at conception, DNA shaping destiny. But cultural factors — how we are treated, seen, engaged with — are absolutely a piece of the whole and that piece begins as soon as other humans begin interacting with you.

Perhaps there are higher injuries for boys because we just assume boys will be rambunctious and don’t need supervision. Much of this is cultural rather than biological

Interesting that pink was considered a boy’s color until recently in history when it started being associated with girls.

Cultural norms change and we demand that genders follow along.

I am a homosexual but otherwise am very straight acting. The one straight thing I don’t like (other than sex with women of course) is sports.

The not-liking-sports thing is a bit of a social hurdle for a straight, or straight-acting, man. Sports is a big ice breaker, and it’s awkward when an attempt to break the ice misfires. But I know a couple of straight men who don’t like sports either, and it’s the same problem for them.

I always just chalked it up to the friction between group assumptions and individual behavior. Not everyone is going to comply with all the generalizations.

But that changed with millennials. They see the world as revolving around them, and I don’t say that as a criticism of them, because it’s how their Boomer parents raised them. So if a generalization is applied to them, and it doesn’t fit, rather than just acknowledging the friction, they jump ship and create an entire new category for themselves.

Which is fine, but then there are all the declarations that these new categories are final and definitive and have always been in effect, always true — we were just too stupid or backward to see them. Now everyone must learn all of these new individual preferences and employ them or you are The Problem and are promptly unpersoned.

It’s not only insufferable, it’s a fool's errand. There is a reason for generalizations. They allow life to go on. We can’t function if we have to halt and read every person’s users manual first. It just won’t work.

I don’t need to create a new gender for myself because I’m a straight acting gay man who doesn’t like sports. There’s some friction there. It’s ok.

I was assigned musical theater queen at birth. I came out singing All the Things You Are. My mother said 'oh fuck' when the doctor said I had a penis. 'I wanted to go to his football games, instead I'll be at home listening to Sondheim obcs. And I hate Sondheim!'

[quote]The biological pieces start at conception, DNA shaping destiny. But cultural factors — how we are treated, seen, engaged with — are absolutely a piece of the whole and that piece begins as soon as other humans begin interacting with you.

This is the exact reason why male/female is different than man/woman. Male/Female is comes about during gestation, it biological. There is no changing that. Man/Woman begins "as soon as other humans begin interacting with you" - societal constraints on what makes a boy/girl then a man/woman.

Heels on shoes were designed for men originally. So you had men walking around in heels, a face full of lead makeup and powdered wigs. That is what men wore. Now the exact same thing we equate with women. Definitions of what makes a man/woman shift with time. Female/Male has been immutable since the dawn of time.

There was a time when an effeminate man was thought to love women TOO much. And now we call them gay. So the idea of a man changes time too.

[Quote] Male/Female is comes about during gestation, it biological.

If biology only recognized Male/Female, then trans men are men. Why would anyone be nonbinary.

Biology is far more complicated that we can perceive on the surface. We know this because trans has been recognized for millennia is many ancient cultures—often as a third gender.

There isn’t only straight.

There aren’t only straight and gay.

Now, we accept gay, straight, and bi. In truth, there may be multiple permutations of these. We just have to evolve socially to understand them.

[Quote] The biological pieces start at conception, DNA shaping destiny

We’re incorrectly assuming that biology only codes for two genders. We find what we want to find

R52, it’s 2025, you can say “gay”.

R57 biology doesn't code any genders. It codes Sex.

Sex is gender. You can parse it all you want

r26, for some people who were born very poor, the military is the only route to a better life.

It may be you had the luxury of not needing that opportunity because of the class into which you were born. But not everyone else has that option.

[Quote] biology doesn't code any genders. It codes Sex.

It might code sex but it seem that biological sex is far more than just male and female

[quote] I am a homosexual but otherwise am very straight acting.

Oh Missy, I am afraid you are just not the judge of that.

It’s odd to me that we want to keep our people from the military who are willing to fight for the country.

We tried that with Blacks, Jews, women, gays, and now trans.

[quote] Sec refers to genitalia.

I thought it referred to the Securities and Exchange Commission.

There are only two sexes, r63, male and female. Some people's sex organs don't fully develop and they are described as "intersex", but they are still either male or female. The "third gender" that r55 imagines was found in ancient cultures (he's misunderstanding what happened in India) is comprised of biological men who are "feminine". Transwomen are biological men.

Our species - like all other mammals - has two sexes for the purpose of procreation and reproduction.

Lol r46, so your male friend is a woman because he's paid less for the same work. What job does he do exactly? I don't know about wherever you live, but it's pretty much illegal these days to pay women less than men for the same work.

It's quite amusing that you seem to define being a woman simply as how one is perceived by others and not by the experience of literally being a woman (or female, if you prefer) and of having a female body, which plays a central role in the reality of being a woman. I'm a woman because my body is a certain way, has certain abilities and limitations, does certain things, responds in certain ways and has a particular life cycle that only women go thruogh. That is what makes me a woman and is what I share with other women and not with men.

The fact that your friend is so focused on the opinions and perceptions of others and not on the lived experience of physically being a woman, which has nothing to do with what anyone else thinks, just shows that the trans think being a woman is nothing but performance and costume. Putting on a wig is not what makes a woman.

[Quote] Our species - like all other mammals - has two sexes for the purpose of procreation and reproduction.

And yet homosexual behavior has been documented in over 100 different species.

Biology is far more complicated than just what you have been conditioned to believe

[Quote] Our species - like all other mammals - has two sexes for the purpose of procreation and reproduction.

In a number of species, females can procreate on their own. So, no, it’s not just about procreation. And there are more than two sexes—we just aren’t open to seeing more than two

[Quote] trans think being a woman is nothing but performance and costume. Putting on a wig is not what makes a woman.

Putting on a wig as a costume is drag. They don’t feel they’re women without that costume.

Trans people feel they are a different sex than the world perceives them whether or not they put on a wig .

r60, sex is acts. Gender is plumbing.

Have you ever heard someone say "I wanna have gender with you"?

R67 is too dumb to get it. I give up. When someone writes that much and still insists on their stupidity, you've just gotta let 'em be. You're right, sweetie.

[quote]I'm a woman because my body is a certain way

And you're not smart because your brain's a certain way. You better stand back when R67 is bleeding through her slacks. Hell hath no fury...

R71, then why do they put the SEX on a Baby's wristlet at the hospital? Are they suggesting they are DTF?

How FTMs giving birth doesn’t trigger they’re dysphoria, I’ll never know.

[quote]Our species - like all other mammals - has two sexes for the purpose of procreation and reproduction.

Then why do we have homosexuality if everything about sex is about procreation or reproduction?

R68 and r76, you're confusing desire with biological function.

The purpose of two sexes in mammals is for procreation. Even when lesbians and gay men have kids, they need a contribution from the other sex.

There are only two human sexes.

R69, which species are you referring to? The human species, like all other mammals, has two sexes for the purposes of procreation. As a lesbian, I'd be very happy to procreate without men, but that isn't the reality.

There are only two human sexes. If you can see more, point us to them.

In any case, trans are not another biological sex. They are either male or female. Laverne Cox is male. Elliot Page is female. They aren't biologically something in between.

R73 and his typical misogynistic misunderstanding of women and menstruation. No wonder he's a fan of the trans. It's all scary and mysterious, isn't it?!

R79 I called R73 ( which maybe you as well) dumb because if you actually read anything I wrote, instead of marching in with your own agenda cherry picking sentences, you’d see I am NOT a fan of trans. You’d see I am actually saying females looking to defend their position in society would do better sticking to discussions around sex and not gender - because gender is such a gray area open to interpretation. Sex is not.

And that is why I said in R72, the person is too dumb to get it. Too dumb to see we are on the same side. Women and Female might be the same to you, but they are not.

Women and female are absolutely the same thing, r80. There is no such thing as a man who is a female or a woman who is male. Just because your male friend is confused (he's probably a gay man who has some stupid homophobic idea that the only way he can be with a man is the way a woman is with a man) that doesn't mean that males can be women.