Gene Hackman and Betsy Arakawa's cluttered, rat-infested hoarder home

Hoarders do tend to become very isolated. That may be why they did not have help in. She seems pretty nuts, they had money for aides, organizers, etc. Hoarding is a mental illness. There were many rats nests on the property. He kind of made his bed disinheriting the kids decades ago. Cruel people had a cruel end.

Dead rats were in that filthy home. Obviously she was suffering from mental health issues and wasn't really capable of caring for herself or him. Really sad when they could easily afford help.

Lots of rodent nests and dead ones in several locations on the property

New Mexico State Public Health Veterinarian Erin Phipps reported that risk exposure [to hantavirus] in the Hackmans' primary residence was low. According to the report, the primary residence had no signs of rodent activity and was clean, per CNN.

But didn’t she die of hantavirus? I don’t want to look it up because the dog breaks my heart.

Hoarding is in the DSM.

Wonder if it was a long standing condition or if she was suffering early dementia and was overwhelmed? Her mother has dementia.

He disinherited his kids soon after leaving their mom.

Betsy was pretty when young but he should not have put so much reliance on her, dumb decision. He had not even updated trustees for his trust as they died.

She may have been exposed to rodents in many outbuildings.

Photos were suppressed so not clear if house was hoarded or just messy. If there were rats in house, new levels of horror.

I would not be surprised if story is being spun to minimize the conditions in the home.

No article or report says there were RATS in that house - rather - on the property. All the report says some rooms were a mess anothers were clean and orderly.

READING FUCKING SKILLS

Hoarders are extremely difficult to help, even rich hoarders. Their homes often have rodents of many types. It’s hard to believe the property was so infested and there were no mice in main residence. Especially in winter when they tend to come inside.

She knew she was sick and should have sought medical attention. They should have had caregivers. The priority of control and isolation killed 2 humans and the poor dog. Hoarding is no joke. People die in their hoards as happened here. Maybe this will draw more attention to the issue.

No one can write these days.

"One of the couple’s dogs stayed right near Arakawa’s body, which was blurred, when authorities first walked into the home."

With the love of dogs, should have gotten a terrier. They are very effective at controlling rodents.

I do not buy that the property was so infested without any rodents in house, info is likely being suppressed out of respect for deceased.

It’s a tragedy but if Gene had maintained a relationship with his kids or even an agent or lawyer, anyone who could have checked on him, it wouldn’t have gone down like this. Ultimately they are both responsible.

The hantavirus thing seemed so bizarre but if she was living in rat feces it makes a lot more sense.

Let’s be hoarders in New Mexico… I’m the hantavirus!

R12, I own two Westie terriers. They ferociously hate all rodents, true, but I’ve also not had luck with them keeping mice out of the house lol! I still need an exterminator.

My older Westie has delivered many “gifts” she’s killed from the yard though. My theory is that the mice are most active at night while the dogs are sleeping.

I get suppressing for privacy but I suspect it is hoarding too. Rodents in a home with dead bodies is a horror that I won’t detail.

Speaking of not being able to write these days:

[Quote] “The French Connection” died a few days after his wife, following complications with hypertensive and atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease along with advanced Alzheimer’s disease.

I wasn’t aware the film died, or even that a film could get married.

I wonder if the treatment of the property was ineffective due to concerns about the safety of the dogs. The outbuildings needed to be professionally cleaned by people in protective gear. The exterminator protocol was clearly insufficient.

I have an elderly hoarder acquaintance and have worried about rodent borne diseases well before this.

Pet food and feces are often a rodent draw.

It’s clear that mental illness prevented household help and caregivers. Sad.

Under rat feces I’m a very skinny woman!

R18, I suspect she just cheaper out on exterminating the casitas and garages, not thinking it through all the way, and then she got exposed in one of those outbuildings. They said the house itself was rodent free, so it likely gave her a false sense of security.

“Cheaped” ^, fucking autocorrect.

This makes me sad, I always respected Gene Hackman as an actor. Well, his films will live on.

I wonder what the casitas were used for?

So many visible nests also likely means there were underground burrows too.

They should have got some cats. My cat is a mild mannered fellow but great at catching mice.

Some of the posts here sound very...emotionally charged. Almost like something his bitter kids might write.

Caregiving of someone with Alzheimer’s is a full time job. Doubt that she was super on top of scooping poop of 3 large dogs or property maintenance. Dog fences and all that ground cover is like a rat resort with buffet. Sounds like only regular help was the exterminator, only every few weeks.

House was old, almost certain to have had rodents of some type, especially with pet food as a draw.

Doubt his children are posting on DL, check your Main Character Syndrome.

If there were not estranged from so many, whole rodent situation and property condition would likely have been managed better and they would have been found sooner, just facts. In fact, timely medical care and they might both be alive, dog too.

No way house was rodent free with such a large outdoor infestation and clutter inside. Not buying it. Rodents can squeeze through small cracks in older homes and multiply rapidly.

R26 She could have hired someone to do all those jobs is the things. She chose to make them isolated in this filth pit.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

It’s clear from the video that Betsy was a hoarder. He was not going out shopping. A mentally ill person and a vulnerable senior, APS should have been involved.

Remember it was the exterminator who raised the alarm, they didn’t seem to have other regular help.

As a hoarder she may have only allowed him to treat outside and outbuildings.

They lived like lazy pigs. Lazy pigs with money, but lazy nonetheless. They probably had no house help. No cleaning people would look at that place and say "oh yes, I'll take this job". They probably didn't trust anyone anyway.

What a revolting and hateful spew of vomit about people who have just died, r32. Show us on this doll where your father touched you.

She probably just got overwhelmed with stuff and taking care of him.

Shit, I get overwhelmed sometimes with all of the stuff I inherited from my parents that I want to get rid of, and I’m a lot younger than they were.

Sounds like she just got overwhelmed and gave up taking care of the out buildings save for the exterminator

I’m shocked that they didn’t have the money to get a maid to help clean up and a caregiver that would check on them.

R35 they had plenty of money.

I read somewhere that they became increasingly isolated during covid, and never got back to normal.

He's dead and can't defend himself. Let him rest in peace.

She was 29, him 60 when they married. His 3 kids were disinherited at that time. They had $80M. He wasn’t even in touch with his lawyer, all of his named trustees are dead. They lived in their bubble with their dogs and mental illness and the hoard. He also should not have been driving nearly as long as he did.

His father was cruel and so was he to his kids. To completely disinherit all 3 when he had so much money was awful. Her mother also has Alzheimer’s. There needed to be family to give a reality check on the way they were living. Trusts were not updated as trustees dies. Friends were also cut off. Guess they thought they would never need anyone else. Esp sad for the crated dog. The humans made unwise choices. Really a shame he did not have proper care with all of that money.

R37, that may be when he developed dementia and isolation is typical. Her hoarding may have been long term or a coping mechanism in recent years.

He should have been in a nursing home years ago clearly.

What frightens me are all the comments on the Post article along the lines of "that's not hoarding, it's just a little cluttered," "that's not hoarding, that's how normal people live." Fuck, people are horrifying.

So who gets the money now if the wife is dead and the kids are disinherited?

She obviously was incapable of taking proper care of him, but they were together for over three decades, so he put all his love and trust in her, to his detriment. To live and die in filth and squalor like that is absolutely horrible. She had quite the resting bitch face, and my guess is, no matter how much affection she had for him, she probably was counting down the days to his death, and wasn’t hiring any full time staff, so all the more money for her when he dies. It’s bizarre some rooms were a wreck, while others looked fine. Maybe some of other rooms weren’t used as much, or at all.

Thats a good question R43 . I thought since she died before he did that would make his will invalid. In fact,wouldnt the fact she left everything to him mean the kids could get her crap too ?

R44 I can’t chalk this up to skimping on at least hiring a housekeeper when she had $80 million to spend. This kind of unnecessary self-isolation is mental illness not just greed — you can’t inherit anything if you’re dead on the floor from hantavirus before your husband goes. We’ve been wondering why Gene’s kids didn’t check, but why didn’t she have any friends, family, caretakers, a person she chatted with at the grocery store or gas station regularly who might notice her not coming in? Nobody? That’s deliberate.

[quote]r23 So many visible nests also likely means there were underground burrows, too.

This is the basis for a horror film.

If Woody Allen and Soon-Yi wanted a quick paycheck, they could pitch something along these lines to Lifetime, and star in it? Just "inspired" by the New Mexico events, of course.

If I knew we were having visitors, I would have tidied up a bit.

- Betsy.

R46 she was still able to function day to day ie take the dog to the vet, pick him up, check on covid symptoms online, etc, but you’re right also that she clearly got in too deep, and her mental health started deteriorating. To run a huge house like that, plus care for a 95 yo man with severe health issues, would drain anyone. I believe she probably loved him, but this didn’t detract her from keeping her eye on the prize. You love your spouse by doing what’s best for them when they are so far gone they can no longer do for themselves. Isolating him in his condition in a rat infested property is unforgivable. For this, his kids should hate her guts.

The inscrutable Chinese

[quote] I wonder what the casitas were used for?

[quote] So many visible nests also likely means there were underground burrows too.

I live in New Mexico, and some people, including my parents who live on multi-acre properties have casitas built to use as guest houses, workshops, offices, or art studios. My parents built a casita years ago to use as a guest house or a place where my dad could do occasional carpentry work. I know a couple who had one built behind their house to use as an office for the husband's architecture business.

[quote]r51 I know a couple who had one built behind their house to use as an office for the husband's architecture business.

aka Grindr hookups.

Some articles states rats nests were found in some of the VEHICLES. That is disgusting. The exterminator every 3 weeks was clearly not sufficient. Gross.

This thread has introduced me to the phrase “rat’s nest” for the first time, and has given rise to several questions:

1. A rat’s NEST??? seriously??? The aren’t birds?

2. What does a rat’s nest look like??? (Note: I do not really want to know)

3. How close am I to the nearest rat’s nest, as I lie here in bed quivering in fear?

Rat Nest: How to Recognize One and What to Do Next

My friend Bill refers to New Mexico as The Unhappiness State. This whole story seems like just another reason why.

What a mess

- Brittany Murphy.

Page Six has photos. Betsy was a hoarder. Gene was senile.

Secretive and isolated, just like on Hoarders show.

Good luck selling the house with infested grounds for a decent price. So gross.

That's one sad looking house. Like others have noted, Betsy obviously had a shopping/hoarding problem, possibly as an emotional response to dealing with Gene's illness/senility. I am assuming that she caught the hantavirus because there were mice living in the house and spreading germs everywhere. My great aunt cleaned houses as a side job for many years, and she dealt with cleaning out a hoarder's home once. They had newspapers stacked to the ceilings which were saturated in mice urine/feces, and she got extremely sick from being exposed to it. She always said that her health was never the same after.

Why did he disinherit his children?

Elderly, impaired, isolated people generally are not in a position to execute all the “shoulds” you all are raising.

R50 I don't know if the Chinese are inscrutable or not, but Arakawa is a Japanese name.

That just looks like really bad housekeeping, and never putting annything away, not hoarding.

Didn't they live next to a garbage dump bc Gene "wanted to ride his bike without being papped"? Could partially explain the extent of the infestation.

The pantry had not yet unpacked grocery bags on the floor. The room was full but it was otherwise not chaotic as such.

The tabletops had items strewn about and clothes scattered everywhere such as a bra slung randomly so I wonder if Gene made a mess trying to look after himself while Betsy lay dead.

[quote] He kind of made his bed disinheriting the kids decades ago.

Pretty much.

Lots of dumb posts on here. But, the writing in the NY Post was also (not surprisingly) quite stupid.

The report says no signs of infestation in the house. I'm not sure why they would lie about it to "protect the family". That doesn't make any sense.

Also, it doesn't seem at all like hoarding...just a messy house that was too big for them and too much for her to keep up. Hoarders don't generally have a couple "bad" rooms and then rooms in pristine shape. It was an old couple in a house that was far too big for them. And, for reasons unknown, they resisted having any additional help.

Not sure why the "kids" are being blamed. Quite obviously it was very much an estranged relationship between Gene and his children. Why would they be checking up frequently with their dad when they all didn't get along? And, there was a stepmother in charge who was the same age as the kids.

Really, if there's any blame to be placed, it's on her. She was apparently a control freak who wanted to run the show without any help...that greed/stubborness helped kill her and him. They should have have downsized to a smaller place years ago and gotten more inhome help.

Some people are comfortable in mess.

I'm not one of them. Those photos give me a panic attack.

What did Robert Duval know?

[quote]As a hoarder she may have only allowed him to treat outside and outbuildings.

That was probably what happened, many hoarders won't let anyone inside their homes.

Hoarding is a very difficult and frustrating disease to treat.

[quote]Some articles states rats nests were found in some of the VEHICLES.

I live in the east coast & I've heard multiple instances in which vehicles become infested with squirrels, so its probably not that surprising if they weren't driving the vehicles.

All of this is sad because it was just so preventable in even simple ways, but Hackman made choices that had unintended consequences down the road.

Karma comes for us all, indeed!

r70 interestingly, I used to work with a hoarder, and she definitely had mice or rat nests in her car (by her own admission). This was in New England.

[Quote]So who gets the money now if the wife is dead and the kids are disinherited?

We do!

[Quote]The tabletops had items strewn about and clothes scattered everywhere such as a bra slung randomly so I wonder if Gene made a mess

So, Gene died with his dirty billows hanging out?

I took care of my dad while he battled dementia and almost lost my mind. My depression and anxiety were off the charts. I think that Betty was trying to keep Hackman's dementia battle private. She probably didn't want - "Gene's sad last days!!!" articles in tabloids. Obviously she was stressed and not taking care of herself. The photos of her and Gene taken in 2024 are interesting. He looks very well taken care of and I think he was.

The house was obviously way too huge and they were isolated. Betty was probably battling mental health challenges. The house is very, very messing but it is not hoarding IMO. It is a woman who was clearly overwhelmed and struggling.

The photos in the linked article are all of the same general area that appears to be a dressing room and adjacent walk in closet. My place has looked pretty bad when I’ve been in the process of re-organizing stuff and looking at new deliveries and setting aside items for returns. There have been occasions when I’ve been interrupted and left stuff a day or two. For example two loads of clean laundry thrown on a daybed that doesn’t get folded and put away for 36 hours.

It’s hard to tell how bad it is without a photo from a greater distance. But the sink top is a mess and that stuff has been there for a while. The tarp on the floor, too. You can’t clean around that. So it’s not “just” messy. And mess that’s been there for a week = dirty because you can’t clean properly. Still, it may have been confined to her closet and dressing area.

Overall, my impression is the conditions in the home are being exaggerated, not played down. Rats and other rodents in outbuildings on a property where a middle aged woman is dealing with a very old senile man? And none in the house? Doesn’t seem like a big deal to me.

Well, it killed her. So in that sense it’s a big deal.

This isn't going to be a popular opinion but...

Sometimes neighbors, acquaintances from stores or businesses a person frequents, etc. don't check on a person when they haven't seen them in a while because the person isn't very nice.

This assumption that just because someone is old or the public is familiar with them from TV or movies, that somehow means they are "nice" is just ridiculous. Old does not equal nice. Public figures who smile for photos and are congenial in interviews does not equal nice person. Gene was likely an asshole especially to his kids and she likely was not much better, water seeks its own level.

I've had plenty of elderly neighbors over the years who I have extended myself to that have turned out to be major assholes and it quickly became evident why they were estranged from their children. I've learned to keep my distance and not engage. No one seeks out assholes. Of course, if you witness an accident or emergency, you call the police for anyone, asshole or not. But no one goes looking for assholes if they don't come around anymore.

Stressed by dementia or not, they clearly had no friends from before he was sick.

[quote] Old does not equal nice.

DL is the proving ground for that assertion.

A great many of the wealthy homeowners in Santa Fe only live there a few months of the year. Not an environment where you're going to form close relationships with your neighbors.

[quote]With the love of dogs, should have gotten a terrier. They are very effective at controlling rodents.

Some terriers are excellent ratters and some are clueless. Unless your house has a serious rodent infestation (in which case a professional pest control person is indicated) a cat can be a pretty reliable deterrent. The cat doesn't need to be a good hunter-- rats and mice smell the cat and will avoid setting up nests nearby.

Elderly people can get suspicious and uncomfortable having strangers in their homes. A 60-year-old with some vision loss can need 3x the amount of light to see what a 20-year-old sees clearly. In some cases, everything is in the shadows so they don't notice the level of housekeeping or of clutter.

Being estranged from his adult children for 20 to 25 years, relying on his wife as sole caretaker, and becoming more insular during Covid, it's not a surprising outcome at least in outline if not the sordid details. Somehow I imagine that had the wife wanted Hackman to maintain a relationship with his children that that might have resulted in a better end. But (not that I side with Hackman or his -I would guess- controlling wife) you rarely know what goes on in families, what causes someone to separate himself from his children. I hope they get something from the estate settlement.

They found paper grocery bags on the floor of the pantry...a bag of bagels that had been opened, with part of the contents missing.

Did Gene eat some bagels?

In a police interview with Mr. Hackman’s two daughters — whom he had with his first wife — they said he did not know how to operate a cellphone and could not send emails. They said they were aware their father had memory issues.

“They recalled that on Jan. 30, 2024, Gene had to be reminded three times that it was his birthday".

R80 You're forgetting the two other dogs who were running around loose.

They were locked 🔒 tight in their own panic 😱 room

R79 I turned 60 during covid and now I'm taking stock of my wardrobe and apartments in preparation for coming retirement and old age. Most the year, any free time I have is spent in my apartments in the evenings. This winter I bought at least 4 bright lamps to add to the existing lighting in all he rooms - mostly uplighters and sconces, but also new lustres. I multiplied the evening wattage in each room x3. When I turn them all on. It made all the entropy and clutter POP. Now the project is to radically reduce possessions - and also upgrade to dust proof cabinets, cupboards and glass fronted bookcases, and more streamlined, simple furniture that is easy on the cleaner and my eyes I also bought heavy duty locking steel furniture, where I intend to keep valuables when I really start declining We help my mom age in her home until for several years it was round the clock professional care. She wasn't paying much attention after a certain point. When she dies, we discovered how much had been lifted over the years by the help.

You can't take anything with you. SO better I get rid of of it now that I am strong and have my wits about me. Otherwise the help will help themselves, or you'll die and surviving family will mostly be uninterested in some old man's treasures. especially if its collected dust and city grime for 3 decades since one's 50s.

[quote] Elderly people can get suspicious and uncomfortable having strangers in their homes.

I just need to say: Yes, he was an elderly person. But he was also Gene Hackman. A retired movie star who was still a household name. A huge star, at one time. He had to be careful about who he let into his home. If nothing else he was a very rich man. There are a lot of greedy people who are interesting in getting a piece of what someone like that has, whther it's money, connections, or whatever.

Absolutely, R85. My parents were neither especially rich nor at all famous, but they didn't wait for old age to spend a lifetime assuming everyone they encountered sought to relieve them of some money or property or favor of some sort. They were suspicious as all fuck about everyone, including the motives of their own adult and self-sufficient children. Hackman actually had some reason to be wary of people's motives, but his second wife appears not only to have helped guard his privacy but to have taken the role of gatekeeper to an extreme. In Hackman's case, these factors in combination with his illness made a dangerous combination.

R86 Well, that's too bad, about your parents. That seems like a terrible way to live.

If they’d been better tippers then the local waiters and Door Dash people would have checked on them.

Cheap fucks!

Now this all makes sense!

That name, hack man, always had serial killer vibes TO ME!

I just hope the daughters have enough to sustain them in Denney's for the rest of their lives....

How do people know the daughters didn't deserve to be left out of the will?

Someone correct me if Im wrong as Im no lawyer but wont they get his estate anyway as they are his surviving immediate family members ?

The story specifically states no rodents were found in the house and that was the house was clean. A house can be messy yet clean. They lived in a rural area. Rodents were found in the garages, which isn't unusual.

This storyline and it's insinuations does a disservice to a great actor.

[quote]r6 I don't know if the Chinese are inscrutable or not, but Arakawa is a Japanese name.

It's all the "Far East."

You know it and I know it.

Rodents in cars is standard for Santa Fe area. Where I live which is outside the city, residents leave their car hoods open at night. My husband checks our engines regularly. The rats especially like Subarus because the electrical wiring coating is made of soy beans, or so I'm told. So if they had rats/mice in their cars it's usually in the engine area.

Just saw video of inside the house and it’s shocking a millionaire would live in that mess

He was still driving in the first part of 2024. He looked frail but he was getting around okay for someone his age. The Alzheimers must have hit in the last months of his life. His daughters said he had memory issues around the time of his birthday in 2024 but I think the pics of him driving, pumping gas and getting coffee were a few months later.

[quote]A house can be messy yet clean. They lived in a rural area. Rodents were found in the garages, which isn't unusual.

[quote]This storyline and it's insinuations does a disservice to a great actor.

Look at the photos. The great actor was living in chaos and disorder guarded by a gatekeeper wife whose way of living isolated and endangered her husband and deprived him of proper care.

Doing all one can do for a loved one and providing the loved one what they need and deserve are two different things.

He had a dragon lady wife who loved and cared for him, and who also wasn't up to the task as his disease and age advanced. His wife was a greater disservice to Hackman than the linked article.

I don’t even think this is that bad.

Gene Hackman's mansion could sell for £5M despite rats, faeces, and 'shocking' mess

Gene Hackman and Betsy Arakawa designed their dream home together before their deaths, and it's likely to go on the market soon - with buyers' gruesome interest in its history bumping up the price

NEW DISTURBING POLICE BODYCAM VIDEO INSIDE GENE HACKMAN'S HOME

13 minute video.

Funeral services for the couple were held in Santa Fe this past weekend.

Judging from the video footage above the house isn’t a complete disaster area but it was obviously way more than one person could cope with. It’s strange that they didn’t avail themselves of a housekeeping service.

r103 as has been mentioned, many hoarders don't want people coming into their homes. They're very secretive about their hoarding.

I noticed how the police repeatedly mentioned the smell of gas. Is that the decomposition of Gene?

I see clutter and clothes piled up but I don't see an overt amount of trash. The shower glass looks clean. The perfume bottles look dust free. Not everyone lives like a magazine. This actually looks like my 90 year old mother in laws home. If I were to go in there and insist I tidy up; she’d beat me over the head.

It's wrong, shockingly wrong.

[quote] It's wrong, shockingly wrong.

But that All-American Grand Slam from Dennys tastes so, so right.

she ended up being strangled by the tight leash she kept Gene on

R11 Dogs are the BEST. What a good, sweet boy.

Some posters on DL thought it was some great MYSTERY as to how their dogs, Bear & Nikita, survived for two weeks without someone actively feeding them.

When you see the open pantry, with grocery bags on the floor....it's no mystery as to how Bear & Nikita got food (calories) while alone.

Wanna know what we ate?

Why do you think there is a tarp floor covering in the bathroom where Betsy was found? Was it to protect the floor from the dog dirt since the dog cages are kept there and it seems like this is where they slept.

R47 I’m having a real hard time picturing Woody Allen navigating his way through a capsized Poseidon, much less racing through the mean streets of NYC to bust a couple of drug lords.

But I guess anything’s possible.

Must have been a task just keeping up with dog hair.

If Gene had symptoms she thought might be Covid, perhaps he had been exposed to hantavirus too.

Betsy seemed to be big on dry cleaning clothes.

Well it’s not exactly filthy.

I thought it was Betsy who thought she had Covid not gene. I read Betsy’s mother was in an assisted living facility due to dementia and was close in age to Gene. I also read she hadn’t visited her mother for a long time. If true, I don’t see how she reasonably thought she could take care of Gene on her own. It would be draining for a 35 year old to take care of someone in that state, much less someone who had no experience or training to take care of someone who has advanced Alzheimer’s.

Anyone consider she might also have been in mental decline?

Sad to read all the blame being put on her. It was a gated community, similar to where I live, which means there is constant surveillance -- including nosy neighbors. Despite hoarding and excessive online ordering/delivery, those two factors - plus neighborly dog owners - don't add up to blaming her for Gene's death.

?

Why not blame the wife? She clearly bears some responsibility in overestimating her own ability to manage things. It's a common thing to think one has everything under control and try to avoid bringing strangers into the the situation, but that doesn't make it a sound idea.

And how does the location within a gated community relieve her of responsibility of knowing that she should have involved a professional caretaker in his at-home care?

At the least she should have maintained some kind of relationship of that sort to have a contact to call in case of a steep decline in her husband's health, in case she had to leave the house for a few hours, in case she fell over some of those stacks of dry cleaned clothes and broker her fucking leg, for the benefit of a second (and professional) opinion.

Constant surveillance of a gated community by a dubiously skilled security team did the Hackman's no good as their dogs were left for weeks to forage through the house for food (or to start eating faces.)

She didn't do her husband a service by trying to shield him from outsiders. She put him at risk of something happening to her. Which it did.

That rooms of the houses are wall to wall dog kennels and blankets laid in the floor and a yard full of rats is evidence enough that everything want perfectly under control at Casa Dragon Lady

I thought I read that Gene was bedridden but maybe he got better. Guess so if he was able to get to the mud room.

CCTV Betsy footage.

The posters who are saying "the house didn't look too bad" are terrifying.

You’re quite the idiot, aren’t you, R50?

R124: Could be anyone for the quality of the videos. The only person I recognized was a cameo by Natalie Merchant making a purchase in the first shop.

I don't see hoarding. Were there 50 empty oatmeal boxes lying around? Is squalor the same as hoarding? I didn't think so.

Not hoarding for sure, based on r101's link.

However, extremely messy and unkempt, and i dont think most people live like that, especially people at that net worth. They clearly didn't have a lot of contact with other people for a very long time. If she had a small, trusted network or at least a trusted person she maintained regular contact with, someone may have been able to convince her to get a PSW for Gene, at least part time, plus a part time cleaning service.

She was living in her own head, and not fully present in the external world. It's really very sad.

Hanta virus, which she died up, is spread by rodent feces

That house will need to be torn down. Like others have said, they are probably underplaying the infestation out of courtesy

All that money they could have been living a very comfortable clean life in their old age. It’s a shame really.

I read Betsy’s mother was in an assisted living facility due to dementia and was close in age to Gene. I also read she hadn’t visited her mother for a long time

R118 - Since the mother lives in Hawaii I doubt the Hackman's would have gone to see her in the last year or after Gene became practically housebound. It seems Betsy could not have left him alone if she went to Hawaii alone, though she was able be away for short periods of time to still go shopping.

R125, I think a lot of posters here have seen episodes of Hoarders and other programs that depict unimaginable squalor. The Hackman house is a mess, but judging from the police body-worn camera footage it did not appear to have every room crammed with stuff from floor to ceiling as one typically sees in extreme hoarding situations. The house looks fairly large however and would be too much to cope with for one person who was also a full-time caregiver.

[quote]Hanta virus, which she died up, is spread by rodent feces

That is BRAND NEW INFORMATION!

r124's footage shows her moving rather slowly at the self-checkout, so maybe there was already some cognitive impairment occurring a day before she died? Her walking seemed fine, though.

Yes, R135, like a Grocery Cashiers' Union of America public awareness campaign to demonstrate that self-checkout is *not* always the fast option.

Very sad.

Maybe not hoarding but she was using her bathtub as a makeshift storage area. Also their closet looked overstuffed and in disarray.

If was fucking hoarding. I would hate to see some of your homes.

[quote]Maybe not hoarding but she was using her bathtub as a makeshift storage area.

And that's called "hoarding." It's not normal to do that.

The thing that caught my eye (other than the bathroom turned into a sad dog kennel) were the scores of bottles of shit around the bathroom sink. There wasn't room to set down a toohbrush for all of the shit. From that and her clothes, I got the impression that she was one of those women who buy stuff because it's 20 cents off, or because it's new, or a new packaging of an old product. She just bought shit and brought it home and set it out with the 67 other bottles of the same sort of shit, some probably having sat there for years.

My mother had Alzheimers and bought the same food every week plus whatever else caught her eye. There was a giant freezer filled with 30 or so containers of ice cream, never opened, and many more similar examples of overstocking. And this with a helper to drive her to the grocery store and shop with her. Initially the assistant would argue that in fact she did need another container of ice cream, but she soon give up fighting over stupid things. My mother needed help taking a shower but every bathroom was overflowing with bath gels and salts and scrubbing devices and all manner and scent of soap wildly out of proportion to actual need, a truck load of stuff to be given or thrown away on her death. She thought it was important to buy these things regularly, but hadn't have the foggiest idea that she already possessed a small warehouse full of the shit. Her closets, previously organized and tidy to a fault, became a mess because in her brief untended time she would move chairs in front of the closets and make nonsencical stacks of things, forgetting her intent as soon as she had started and ending in piles of chaos. I don't think Hackman's wife was at all a textbook hoarder, but I wonder about her mental state from the tortuously slow self-checkout tape and the evdience from the videos of the state of the house. I wouldn't be surprised if the pressure of looking after her husband and the paranoia of Covid accelerated her mental state and that the too many toiletries and chaos in parts of the house are signs of dementia.

Pribvate people or not, there comes a time when a sane woman realizes she can't look after her extremely old and extremely frail bedridden husband with advanced Alzheimers. She might have been proud and private, but was she that stupid?

[quote] people or not, there comes a time when a sane woman realizes she can't look after her extremely old and extremely frail bedridden husband with advanced Alzheimers. She might have been proud and private, but was she that stupid?

I looked after my mom after she became cognitively impaired. Caring for someone with dementia is like trench warfare. You are just trying to keep your head down and survive another 24 hours. Your perspective becomes distorted and you can (entirely unintentionally) end up putting yourself and the person being looking after at risk. This is why having a support network (family, friends, and medical professionals) is vital. Lack of any apparent support outside the home helped lead to the tragic outcome in Hackman’s case. You really cannot go it alone.

The queens pearl clutching on here about the "horror" of the house are too much. You just know the type...anal retentive bitches with NOTHING in their house and CONSTANTLY cleaning.

So uptight. Usually awful lovers because they're so worried about "messes".

The house looked fine to me.

I wonder when Betsy finally began to realize that she herself was mortally ill. It seems like her whole concept of life was “my husband is very very old and I’m his younger wife and caregiver.”

[Quote]That rooms of the houses are wall to wall dog kennels and blankets laid in the floor and a yard full of rats is evidence enough that everything want perfectly under control at Casa Dragon Lady

If you watched the video walk-through, exactly ONE room in that massive house was a mess, and that was Betsy's dressing room, which also happened to be the room a large dog had been stuck in for 2.5 weeks. She had been quite sick for a week (she thought she might have covid based on her Google searches), so she may have been neglecting that particular room for days before she died since she was the only one who saw it. She may have been in the middle of a re-organization project before she got sick and then just put it off and stuff stayed piled. The counter in their loaded with stuff looked to be where she did her hair/makeup/lady stuff, and anyone who has ever lived with a woman or has seen their bathroom counters after they finish getting ready in the morning can attest to just how much shit can pile up there after not tidying it up for a few days.

Every other room in the house (save for the pantry with the groceries not yet put away and dug into by the one dog) looked to be immaculate or otherwise tidy. There were a few stacks of books and a room that looked like it was used as an art studio with some stacked prints, but otherwise it appeared to be in good order. The floors and windows were shiny, the bathrooms were clean, the counters were not cluttered. There was one bag of garbage by the front door that needed to be brought out, but that was the only garbage I saw in the whole video.

The reports said VERY clearly that there was NO rodent activity in the residence--only in a shed and one or two garages, but Betsy had an exterminator that came once a month to tend to it. Is that extremely unusual in a country estate?

It's disgusting that people are calling this a "hoarder house", as if most people don't have one room in their house that tends to becomes the designated dump spot. Honestly, for a house that size with little domestic help and two sick, elderly residents plus three large dogs, I'm shocked by how well-kept it appeared to be.

R146 Listen you fucking idiot ! If they had rats in the garage and casitas,they had rats in the house . Its a given ! Why are you so fixated on that ???

Ww r147

Good comments, R146.

r143 the house was a pigsty. It wasn't normal for a house to look like that.

Some rooms were messy. The closet overstuffed. Her bathroom a mess. But it was a total pigsty and it wasn't an extreme hoarding situation.

I'll show you pigsty.

well that was suppose to read - but it was NOT a total pigsty! Just pockets of mess.

“Supposed to”, R152, not “suppose to”.

They sound the same but they’re not.

Gene Hackman's estranged children travel to Santa Fe as actor, wife laid to rest in private funeral service

Betsy's mum speaks out!

[quote]r120 Sad to read all the blame being put on her.

[quote]r122 Why not blame the wife? ... She put him at risk of something happening to her. Which it did. That rooms of the houses are wall to wall dog kennels and a yard full of rats is evidence enough that everything was perfectly under control at Casa Dragon Lady

I agree that Soon-Yi (or whatever her name is) almost singlehandedly killed Hackman. Madam Dragon Lady probably was loathe to spend money on home care as she knew she'd be inheriting everything, and had obviously chosen a husband twice her age so that she'd have plenty of time to spend it on herself.

She clearly drove a wedge between Hackman and his children, but who has the last laugh now?

I don't know why everyone keeps assuming she was trying to be a good caregiver. What kind of caregiving does any of this suggest? He could have had a live-in nurse. He really should have been in assisted living. There was something else going on here. Why didn't she want to get any help for them? She seems to have been mentally ill.

[quote] If was fucking hoarding. I would hate to see some of your homes.

Mayo clinic says: "Hoarding disorder is an ongoing difficulty throwing away or parting with possessions because you believe that you need to save them."

Being a slob, owning a lot of stuff and never putting it away, or leaving it around without cleaning up after yourself isn't hoarding. That's all some people are saying.

One commentator said they need to look into the rodenticide that was being used around the property or the pesticides that were being sprayed. You don’t just drop dead of Hanta virus.

R147 You sound deranged. And, ignorant.

The authorities are the ones who reported no rats IN the house.

On a large property with a huge yard and out buildings. it's quite possible to have a rodent problem in those areas and not IN the actual living space. Many rodents PREFER to live outside because they live in large burrows, not cute little homes under the baseboard.

Call it hoarding, call it unkempt — that house was a filthy PIGSTY.

Some folks get so invested in lurid scandal, hyperbole, internet clickbait rhetorics, and yellow tabloid logic, they dig in when confronted.

R158 If you think you just have the flu, you can most definitely just drop dead of Hantavirus:

"Hantavirus pulmonary syndrome can quickly become life-threatening. Severe disease can result in failure of the heart to deliver oxygen to the body. Each strain of the virus differs in severity. The death rate due to the strain carried by deer mice ranges from 30% to 50%."

Another fact -- it seems the kitchen was full of out of date food items. This may not be full-scale hoarding but it is a condition whereby too many things require greater control and management than old people can manage. Isolation causes people to lose their grasp on reality, as in I'm drowning in cosmetic bottles. Let's throw some away. If Betsy wasn't falling into dementia herself, she may have been depressed and incapable of taking action. Whatever the case, that house was sad. Blood on the sheets, mess, out of date food. Too many rooms and out buildings to take care of.

jeez...no keeling over for me until the beds made and the garbage bin put out on the curb.

[quote]Being a slob, owning a lot of stuff and never putting it away, or leaving it around without cleaning up after yourself isn't hoarding. That's all some people are saying.

Lots of dirty little piggies on this thread.

[quote]You don’t just drop dead of Hanta virus.

Oh, hi! **splat**

I don’t know that the house looks any worse than that of many other people I know. Suffice to say many of us have waaaaaayyyyyyy too much stuff.

[quote]Suffice to say many of us have waaaaaayyyyyyy too much stuff.

Your problem doesn't make dead Betsy normal, R167.

Way too much shitty stuff: sink countertops chockablock with grocery store beauty products; piles and piles of clothes, the overflow from hanging racks, the overflow from the countless ranks of closets built in to the house.

Way too much things that are "neither beautiful nor useful": chairs and table tops filled boxes of bags of who knows what; bags of things brought home from the shops and set on the floor; stacks of books piled such that you can't read the titles.

Filth: the chaos of dog crates and dog beds and blankets on the floor in her dressing room, overstuffed drawers pulled open with hair curlers, etc. spilling out. You can't blame all of the disorder of the dressing room on the dogs having outlived their owners by a week or three.

It's not that she had a lot of stuff - it's that it was stupid shit sitting out in the house because she had exhausted all the seemingly ample storage options. (Imagine what's in those casitas and other buildings in the property)

I often describe the "American lifestyle" as lonely, with pointless consumerism making things seem meaningful: buying armloads of bags of impulse buys from one strip mall after another, then going home and dropping the bags in one of the spare bedrooms and never opening the bags, moving onto another bedroom when the last becomes unnavigable, and so on...until they have a huge yardsale of shit with the original pricetags still on -- clearing out room to buy more stupid impulse items, more kitchen appliances that will never see the outside of the box they were bought in, clothes that won't fit if and when anyone ever gets the idea to actually try them on. Sounds like Betsy's house looks.

To those who want to think of Betsy as a Dragon Lady it looks like there is bedding on the floor next to the dead dog’s crate. The dog had just had an operation. I think she was sleeping next to the dog’s crate to comfort him.

R165 Your mind is making leaps of logic. Or you're putting words in my mouth. I wasn't defending being a slob or saying I'm a slob and that's great, like you seem to think. I was saying why hoarding may not be the word for what this is. That is all.

^^Dirty little piggie

^^Probably projection.

As someone who has a shed out back about 30 yards from my house, I can tell you that it has an 8' long rat snake living in there, but there are no snakes in the house. Thank God! I'd have to nuke the place from space.

The unattached garage gets birds in there and mice sometimes, when I'm out working in there with all of the doors open, but nothing gets into the house.

If the buildings are detached, then rodents/pests don't necessarily also get in the house.

A person I work with recent had rats in their house. Very clean and normal, nice couple. There just happned to be hole in their house someplace, and the rats got in. Even after the exterminators thought they blocked the hole, the rats got in again. It's not necessarily an indication of squalor. In this case due to a lot of construction and excavation, there are rats around.

Befriend that rat snake, R173. It's the only thing standing between you and death via Hantavirus!

Best thread title of the year (to date)

So full of the DL's spirit.

It's funny but whenever I used to read about Gene Hackman being retired, I thought it was very sensible not to be acting any more, unlike so many actors who go on and on, and I assumed he was living a quiet life of tranquility, not living in a cluttered, rat-infested hoarder home with his crazy wife while he deteriorated from Alzheimer's.

Since the all-time world record length for a rat snake is 8.4 feet, R173's shed must be full of more rodents than "Ratatouille" was.

(Rat snakes are not especially bitey if they're approach confidently and allowed to get used to be picked up to be moved. Sylvia Fowler, unsurprisingly, knows her snakes.)

"Not especially bitey"

Just a little bitey.

In 10 years handling insurance claims, I've seen 100x worse than this. It's an 8,000 SF house. They had a few rooms of accumulated clutter that they probably hardly ever set foot in. The lived in areas, though, like the kitchen, look fine. A bit of a mess here and there, sure, but if I didn't know I was about to die of Hantavirus, I'd probably think it was OK to let the kitchen slide for a day or two until I was feeling better.

Racers are bitey.

Rat snakes aren't, unless threatened.

Hognose snakes bluff-attack but do not bite. Then they shit themselves and roll onto their backs, playing dead.

Colubrids (non-venomous in North America, except for a few rear-fanged colubrid snakes whose venom is harmless to people except for an itch, e.g. garter snakes) don't bite in a way that's anything but a nuisance. No infections.

Even US vipers (rattlesnakes, cottonmouths, copperheads) will avoid biting if they can, and try to escape from people. And the only US elapid, the coral snake, has terrible venom but tiny mouths, and they, too, will avoid biting. Venom is needed for prey, and costs bodies a lot to make in terms of internal resources. They bite only in defense. And the same goes for non-venomous snakes.

With a few more rat snakes and gopher snakes in the vicinity, both the Hackmans probably would still be alive.

I had a phobia and learned to deal with it. Now I see snakes as just another animal that is there for a reason.

R173 here. Yes, the shed is full of rodents. Moles, mostly. It sits right at the edge of some woods/park area, so they get in there, so do birds. Plenty of food.

Slithers and I have an agreement. (S)He stays away from me, and I pretend (s)he doesn't exist.

When I need to get in the shed, I usually ask a "not afraid of snakes" neighbor to do it. The damn thing has been up in the rafters of the shed, in the trees, it was even on another neighbor's fucking roof! Rat snakes climb, for those of you not familiar with the things

Anyway, I have two cats. One of which kills anything and everything. He's killed a mouse, a vole, every cricket, spider and fly in the house. He's even killed stink bugs. He's a bit wary of cicadas, though.

This thread really makes you wonder what a bunch of prissy screech owls on the DL would have to say about you were you to suddenly drop dead on a random Tuesday and every room in your home was photographed and published purely for the sake of public judgement.

Well r184 that's not going to happen.

And if it does, I’ll be too dead to care

A lot of elderly folks with dementia have very cluttered homes. They keep everything out in view so they can easily locate it when they need it.

R184 Exactly!

I'm afraid the Prissy Queens of DL would faint if they saw my pretty much always messy recycling area (I just use paper grocery bags). I have 3 of them going right now and a bag full of other bags and a box or two that all need to be schlepped down to the recycling bin. (I'm in a third floor walk-up). It's tidy in that area for about an hour after I lug it down then it quickly builds up again...a never ending cycle.

There's also some very large dust bunnies under the couch. And, my usual stacks and stacks of books on the coffee table.

Oh...and the kitchen floor really needs to be scrubbed. We made a big dinner today and the floor is a mess.

Hopefully, we live through the night before the papparazi arrives to shame us.

Human nature draws us by curiosity to how bizarre this situation is. Howard Hughes was an accomplished industrialist and visionary, but now people mostly remember the Kleenex boxes on his feet, his germaphobia, and watching Ice Station Zebra on a continuous loop. It's just how things are. We're attracted to weird situations, especially when it involves a celebrity.

People who have enough money to be living in luxury at their end of days, but choosing to live in squalor makes us all shake our heads.

If WE had that kind of money, we would gladly pay someone to come in, cook for us, clean and make sure we weren’t dead.

Yet these people don’t. So you wonder.

He lived for a week after her, maybe he trashed the house in his dementia.

If wealthy, I certainly wouldn't have someone to cook for me. Gross.

Now, I probably would have a bi weekly cleaning crew to clean the bathrooms and floors.

He wasn’t going shopping, R191. Besides the groceries there were lots of bags and piles of stuff.

[quote]He lived for a week after her, maybe he trashed the house in his dementia.

More likely he didn't lift his head off his pillow, except maybe to fall to the floor.

The toilet was said to be unflushed. Does dementia make you do that?

It can, R195. Using the toilet is one of the ADLs (Activities of Daily Living). Inability to perform any of the basic ADLs (bathing/showering, getting dressed/undressed, eating, and so on) indicates that the person is impaired and needs further assessment and some form of assistance. You don't want to know how very grim the toileting situation can get with dementia sufferers.

I've seen the pictures now. I have seen much much worse homes. It looks relatively clean, only too much stuff and disorganized too. Check out Aurikaterina or cCeaning with Barbie for a rabbit hole.

This video has some images I had not seen before.

Thanks R198. You can see that it's a completely functional large home, orderly, with a couple of rooms that were "collect" rooms for disarray. This is not a hoarder home. Just someone who needed a housekeeper a few times a week. For example the closet could have been expanded to a spare bedroom, and been fine. Betsy wasn't managing well. My mom was like this so we hired housekeeper and later home nurses. Kept her clutter in order. Otherwise it would build up, yes.

In that video at R198 you can see that Gene's closet was a lot tidier than his wife's. One of the indicators of hoarding is spaces/objects that are no longer usable for their intended purpose. Tabletops, countertops, beds, chairs... every single surface is covered in stuff. Betsy's bathroom/dressing area in particular does not appear to me to be a functional space. It's completely taken over by clothing, toiletries, shopping bags, and god knows what else.

That is the point I made, mon chere R200. There are messy rooms but there is plenty of space that is fine. I agree Betsy had lost her own battle. The large home could accommodate it however.

Wtff

It's a combination of hoarding and not doing periodic cleaning and organizing.

She seems like she was a messy mess.

Blood seen on a pillow in the bedroom - days before her death, Betsy had asking Google questions about her illness, including the search term: “Flu and nosebleeds”

Unless Gene had a cut too.

I’m left with a lot of questions

Is it true her vagina was oriented sideways?

Could that have played a role in any of this?

I have to laugh at how the first responders were all men and too scared of the dog inside Betsy's bathroom to go in. Yet when one finally goes in, the dog has no reaction.

US comedian John Mulaney has caused controversy with his joke about the deaths of Gene Hackman and Betsy Arakawa.

On Wednesday (April 24), US comedian Mulaney targeted the investigation into their deaths on his show Everybody’s Live with John Mulaney. Referencing a headline about dinosaurs, he said on the Netflix show: “Scientists are now like, ‘We believe dinosaurs were killed 66 million years ago by an asteroid’. Stop. You don’t know that. We don’t even know how Gene Hackman and his wife died, and we found their whole bodies with full clothes on, one week after the event.

I don't mind a joke in bad taste -- as long as it's funny.

I didn't realize it was a new concept that the dinosaurs were killed by an asteroid.

The Glasgow Film Theatre will celebrate the life of the late Gene Hackman with a season of classics.

They will show the 1971 crime thriller The French Connection, while Unforgiven and The Royal Tenenbaums will also be screened.

^ in May.

R210, that was not even funny

Special added bonus feature in Glasgow - 1972 thriller Ben.

R210 Guess you had to be there.

Authorities have released more videos related to their investigation of the deaths of actor Gene Hackman and his wife, Betsy Arakawa, including images of agents returning to the couple's Santa Fe home days after they were found to look for more evidence.

The latest release includes over three hours of police body camera video and builds what has already been made public, including a lengthy investigative report, photos and hours of body camera and security video showing the initial police response.

The new videos show authorities interviewing workers and returning to the home to search for more evidence early on in the investigation before they knew how Hackman and Arakawa died.

One hourlong video shows detectives searching the home in early March for Arakawa’s laptop and any other clues. Representatives of Arakawa’s family let them inside the house and led them to the bathroom where her body was found.

R218 Does anyone else ever notice the difference in the amount of video and investigative evidence, publicly released, in a case like this, vs. something like the Epstein case?

Upcoming story on 60 minutes Australia.

Who was supporting who?

An employee of a well-known California ski resort has died from the same rodent-caused illness as Gene Hackman's wife Betsy Arakawa.

Rodrigo Becerra, 26, who worked as a bellman at the Mammoth Mountain Inn, was found dead in his home from hantavirus pulmonary syndrome complication on March 6.

Hantavirus is considered an extremely rare and deadly disease spread by rodents' urine, droppings and salvia.

But the bloody Band-Aid in Betsy's bed! The Band-Aid!

4 people have died of it this year I think, so it's becoming less rare.

I was ready to give her the benefit of the doubt - but no longer.

Selfish woman making him live in squalor with all that money and help available.

I have to believe that some of the video and photos being released is due to actions from the children's attorneys. HER family could inherit all the money unless it's proven she died several days before him (I can't remember the threshold period).

The kids are trying to prove neglect (which it looks like to me) to avoid that and to get their inheritance. Seems right to me.

60 minutes.

R226 "Hollywood Tragedy" ?

Gene Hackman made it to age 95. Not sure would call it a tragedy. It sure isn't the way he expected to die though.

Why do these kinds of shows use that melodramatic music? It's so tacky.

He starved to death. According to autopsy

R229 Could the autopsy determine exactly how much later he died after she did? It would take much longer than a week without food to starve to death.

The fact she died first is indisputable . Her family has zero claim on his estate and may not end up with any claim to hers. I would think an elderly person who likely didnt eat much anyway could starve to death in a week. I thought I read somewhere he was hydrated .So obviously he drank . I hope he was so out of it he didnt realize what was happening. He may have been a shitty person but he gave some of the most iconic movie performances ever.

My aunt had Alzheimer's and she would not eat. She said she would forget to do it which I could not understand. Wouldn't your body tell you it was hungry? She lost weight just like Gene.

R232, if you are cognitively impaired your body might be able to signal that it's time to eat or drink but your ability to respond to it effectively is compromised. You may not know where the kitchen is; you may not know where the drinking glasses are; etc. Anything requiring multiple steps is going to present a problem to a person with dementia.

Exactly what R233 says

My father, for example, simply didn’t know anymore how to use the restroom — something we all do without thinking. His instincts and muscle memory were completely gone.

What was weird is many rooms were normal and clean, but then others were completely trashed.

r200 On some level all women are hoarders. All the cosmetics and clothing can get out of control. Good thing it looks like her stuff was separate from his. The kitchen and living room was very clean and minimalist too. It seems like it was just the bathroom and some spare room-- like a craft room that was a hoarder mess. So Gene Hackman probably didn't have to really deal with her mess.

I remember after my mother died and my father was going through her belongings. He found some unopened new purchases and got angry at what he thought was her wasteful spending. His attitude made me angry so I left the room. She didn't have Alzheimer's but she was depressed living with her Life Big surprise.

[quote] On some level all women are hoarders.

R236 has clearly never watched any of those Famous Gay Interior Designer Gives You a Tour of His Treasure-Filled Manor videos that crop up in the Tasteful Friends threads all the time.

[quote] I thought I read somewhere he was hydrated .So obviously he drank .

?

[quote]It would take much longer than a week without food to starve to death.

Anyone who has had a loved on in hospice can tell you - when you stop feeding (and especially drinking) it's a week. Like clockwork.

The cop walked into the house and said “I see feet” reminded me of the feets troll.

R240 Well, sure, without water it's a very quick demise--3-4 days tops. But we can go much longer without food than we think. I do one 2 week fast once a year for autophagy purposes (it does wonders for my auto-immune issues and joint pain), and I'm quite slim at the start of it. There are many people with normal BMIs that regularly fast for even longer for medical reasons without issue. I usually end up losing 10-15 pounds at the end of it, but most of that comes right back on as soon as I refeed. Of course, I'm fairly young and in relatively good health, so I can't completely judge my experience against a 95-year old's.

Considering the autopsy found him to be well-hydrated, it's very unlikely he would drop dead from food deprivation alone in just a few days. My guess is that there was a 2-week period at least between their deaths, which would make sense, as that was the time of last contact made between Betsy and the outside world

[quote] Considering the autopsy found him to be well-hydrated, it's very unlikely he would drop dead from food deprivation alone in just a few days. My guess is that there was a 2-week period at least between their deaths, which would make sense, as that was the time of last contact made between Betsy and the outside world

R242 The investigators have already concluded that they passed away about six days apart from one another. Betsy's last contact with anyone was on February 11, and Gene's pacemaker stopped recording his heart activity on February 17. Gene's cause of death has also been confirmed as heart disease (not food deprivation or dehydration), with his advanced Alzheimer's being a major contributing factor.

At that age, people eat like a baby bird. A bag of chips and two glasses of water throughout the day would've kept old Gene pretty much alive.

The freak factor here is that we'll never know if Gene would have died on the 17th anyway had Betsy still been alive. At that age, there is no such thing as a "sudden, surprising death".

R235 Not that weird. Big house with only two people in it. And, they weren't hoarders. Now, they had a lot of stuff but...many people have too much stuff. And, as you get older and you're bad about getting rid of old stuff, it can get messy. Some people like lots of stuff and others don't.

The whole "messy rooms/neat rooms" thing is very real to me. When I was a kid, we moved from a fairly small 2 bedroom house one story house to a much larger 2 story house. My mom worked but she was pretty good about keeping on top of things but part of that was because we had an extra room, my Dad's so called "Office" which was this weird room on the first floor right off the dining room/kitchen area that had FIVE doors in it and two windows. My dad had his desk in there and kept his hang up clothes in one of its two closets. It had a fold out couch bed, so it was used as a guest room. But, it was also where the ironing board lived and usually the couch was covered in clean clothes that needed ironing. The room was really a catchall space for all the extra shit in the house. It was only tidy when we knew company was coming to use the fold out couch.

Someone in the YouTube comments of the 60 minutes show proffered that Betsy not getting in help was a very Japanese thing to do. The Japanese are said to have a culture of caring for their own elderly.

R246 Until fairly recently, MOST cultures cared for their own elderly. Shuffling the oldies off to retirement homes/nursing homes is relatively recent.

Contrary to all the fun scenes in the film Ratatouille, you do not want a rat population within your home.

Are people who amass enormous collections of stuff (which they manage to clean and keep organized) compulsive hoarders? I don't know if hoarders who live in abject squalor are a different sub-type, or if the collectors and living-in-trash-piles people are merely manifesting the same psychiatric condition at different stages/levels of severity.

"Hoarders" is a ridiculously broad term applied to a lot of different situations.

Personally, there's a world of difference between people who have a lot of stuff and don't dust or tidy much and people or are just generally slobs and people who have food/shit/garbage strewn throughout their place because they're lazy or mentally ill or infirm or a combo platter of all of the above.

Then, there's the nutty collectors who have whole rooms devoted to very specific collections of things.

Personally, I think the real and original hoarders are the people who can't get rid of anything because they "might need that someday". The ones with stacks of newspapers and boxes and shit they overbuy "just in case".

People are so cruel here . Have compassion . Hoarding is a mental illness and affects the entire family , if you’ve see hoarders, often a friend or relative will come do a well check —- and bring some county official to inspect the premises . That often leads to you must accept help to deal with this , or you will be taken out of your home .

Not a fun job. You have to love someone enough to semi force help on them and disregard you were disinherited .

They could have knocked on his door at anytime

It’s nobody’s fault and it’s an invasion of privacy to release all these photos to get clicks or whatever disgusting

This made me laugh -

Feedin him on miso soup everyday she starved the crap out of him last photos just tragic he was a bag of bones. He was dressed like a bum and needed a haircut and shave. But she went shopping and treated herself to massages.

R251 Except the photos/videos we've seen don't really show signs of hoarding. Having too much stuff and a couple messy rooms isn't hoarding.

But OP needed clicks and ATTENTION. And just LURVED all that he got.

r253 it was a fucking pigsty. It was hoarding.

This has really touched a nerve with DL's dirty little piggies.

A pigsty and hoarding are not the same behaviors. Tidy and clean up the house of a pig and the pig will be inclined to be grateful (even as he almost immediately sets about slobbing it up again.) Clean up and organize a hoarder's house and you're likely to incite a highly agitated mental state.

I think Betsy was having some memory/mental issues based on the endless cosmetics and other products that crowded the dressing room surfaces, and likewise with buying cheap clothing and impulse items quite apart from her actual needs or likelihood of putting them to use. She bought shit she already had or things she had no serious intent ever to put to use, forgetting in many cases that she already had a house full of such shit. That's not hoarding. Hoarding is having unnatural attachments to things if dubious value to someone's life or interests. Collecting baby dolls is ghastly, but it's rarely hoarding. Saving all sorts of odd shit, most of which is without any intrinsic value but which provides a sort of security blanket...that is hoarding.

Betsy was a pig. She was a control freak until she wasn't able to do it anymore. She bought too many things unsure if she already had them or not. Her judgment seems to have been off. There are mental conditions associated with these things but she wasn't a hoarder. She didn't save utterly useless things as attached to chandelier high stacks of Big Mac wrappers as a mother is attached to her child. Hoarding is a special thing. It's not having too much stuff, it's not being sloppy or even being a pig.

Your house is a pigsty and full of shit. That's hoarding, no matter what you call it.

There are levels of hoarding

I am on Level 1.

Me too R259 . Ive had to put a screeching halt to thrifts and estate sales etc . Too much . I have too much !