A MICHFEST MEMOIR!

I have missed the annual MichFest threads so much. As well as the annual MichFest Thanksgiving threads.

It was obviously a lot more fun before they closed the online MichFest message boards but what memories.

Camp Brother Sun in Power!

What was the S/M area of the campground called? Was it something with “thunder” in the name?

Has Nan Michiganwomyn commented?

I had friends who went in the mid-80s; I believe it focused just on the music at that time.

The Twilight Zone, r2. In the book Lisa describes the orgy-like atmosphere of the Festival's early years, which then became complicated (like everything else) as attendance grew, cultural norms shifted, sexual subcultures arose, and children began attending... thus leading to the creation of the Twilight Zone.

Can’t wait to hole up in my Menstrual Hut and thumb through this.

Alison Bechdel drew a funny cartoon about how she went from a naive young woman loving the early vibes where nickel bags were sold out right in the open to being miserable trying to sell her cartoons there years later. She kinda trashed it.

Well is my face red! I thought MICHFEST was a made up DL running gag. It was REAL? NUTLOAF is a thing?

Squirrels. Death.

Chapter 16.

Does the book answer the age-old question whether a fat womon can do garbage detail?

Was there any mention of the concentration camp for men/boys outside the main gate of Michfest?

Womyn bringing their sons to Fest had to deposit their male children there before entering the main camp since there was "no man on the land."

I attended once, it must have been around 92’/93’. It was indeed fairly hedonistic, I don’t recall seeing any children there at all. I was maybe 20/21 years old — first time the sunshine had ever hit my bare tits was there. Also got to shower outside naked with maybe 75 other women at the same time. It was definitely a mish-mash of various subcultures. It helped me grow up as a woman, made me see myself very differently, which is also what got me interested in studying other power movements.

[QUOTE]Womyn bringing their sons to Fest had to deposit their male children there before entering the main camp since there was "no man on the land."

Weren't the youngest ones allowed in? I recall something about an age cut-off. I suspect the older ones were relieved about not having to attend something that would probably be very boring to them. And they could be around other kids their age.

Toot toot! Beep beep! All aboard the Rainbow Express!

- In sisterhood, Denise

It looks like any photographic evidence of the infamous “cheese puff contest” or of Sara twirling in her vagina cape has been scrubbed from the web.

I hope Rainsong was asked to write the preface, and then was denied the chance because she refused to respect stated boundaries.

LATENESS IN PURCHASING THIS BOOK WILL NOT BE TOLERATED!

I think that’s right, that infants and young toddlers were allowed, r13. They had Camp Brother Sun, where you could drop off your little pre-rapist pre-teen to be watched over while you went off to sing along to Phranc and get into passive-aggressive snits over the distribution protocol for the last few dozen Coors Lights.

[quote] Has Nan Michiganwomyn commented?

I commented THEN so I wouldn't have to comment NOW.

[quote] Toot toot! Beep beep! All aboard the Rainbow Express! - In sisterhood, Denise

Obviously Denise, who is a fat womon, was going in reverse.

What was the only-lesbians-would-think-this-is-fun Michfest activity for which lateness would not be tolerated? Was it seeing how many cheeseballs you could hold under your drooping breasts without dropping them? (That was an actual activity, but I don't think that it was the one for which lateness would not be tolerated.)

I remember on one of the threads where one lesbian reminisced about the place by saying, "I honestly don't think I had ever seen more rules posted up in one place in my entire life until I went there..."

The thing that shocked me about the cheese balls under the boobs was that they weren't real cheese, as I expected. They were Utz cheese balls! Can you imagine the August heat and humidity, the sweat, the smushed cornmeal and orange powder everywhere. 😫 Sadly, pictures are no longer on the internet.

One of my favorite Michfest stories is about a workshop for Native Americans that kept getting attended by non-indigenous women. Their claim was that they belonged because they were NA [italic]in a previous life[/italic]. The organizers had to specify in current life only.

Thanks for posting OP, I just added it to my audible

What was the name of the volunteer organization that policed Michfest and, if they saw a trans person in attendance, would point at xim and shout out, "MAN ON THE LAND! MAN ON THE LAND!"

The Cistapo?

According to Wikipedia, “The festival was hampered by an outbreak of shigella in 1988.”

Shigella is the leading cause of bacterial diarrhea worldwide. I assume this is the funniest chapter in the book.

You cannot make this up:

“ An uncooked tofu salad served on the last day was implicated as the outbreak vehicle.”

[quote] In August 1988, an estimated 3,175 women who attended a 5-day outdoor music festival in Michigan became ill with gastroenteritis caused by Shigella sonnei. Onset of illness peaked 2 days after the festival ended, and patients were spread throughout the United States by the time the outbreak was recognized.

Thank the Goddess! The Porta-Potties of The Land simply could not have contained all that diarrhea.

[quote]r11 Womyn bringing their sons to Fest had to deposit their male children there before entering the main camp since there was "no man on the land."

The moms would pitch in doing childcare at that facility - it's not like they dropped off their kids like luggaged and then came back at the end of the week. And they would usually set up their tent nearby so they could be close if needed.

The book's good. It really gives you a sense of what it was like to be there. And you can't help but think how superficially gay men would have set up a similar music festival - which would have just been a sex fuelled rave.

There was a camp for young boys and girls-Camp Brother Sun/Sister Moon. But yes, as R29 stated, the moms would have to be there with the kids part of the time and camp with them.

At the camp, the kids would do such stimulating activities as “noncompetitive games”. That would have been good for me, who never won a race or any sports activity. Ever.

There was an orientation video you had to watch before you got to enter the fest.

Oh, goodness. From r27. You have to wonder if insurance/liability issues became part of deciding to pack up the whole operation. Shigella was in 1988. Can you imagine this happening now? They'd lose the Land!

[QUOTE]This large foodborne outbreak had been heralded by a smaller outbreak of shigellosis among staff shortly before the festival began and by continued transmission of shigellosis from staff to attendees during the festival... limited access to soap and running water for handwashing was one of the few sanitary deficits noted at this gathering.

They'd probably face all sorts of lawsuits nowadays, and not just for sanitation.

The MichFest threads were one of the things that got me hooked on this place. Those were some good times.

I’ve never been one for the outdoors camping stuff. And I’d be miserable after five days in August.

Where exactly in Michigan was The Land? I know they did not send out the address to you unless you had paid and registered in full and that was very smart. But how could it be such a secret when a whole traffic jam of dykes were on the road at the same time every year?

I’m sure it was at its best in the 70s and 80s. An older woman I knew in college talked about her first experience going and they drove into the lot and the woman conducting traffic was completely nude.

I came out in college in 1991 which was the same year the Fest implemented the “womyn-born-womyn” policy so it was always in a controversial spotlight from when I’d first heard of it.

R36 How would that be controversial in 1991?

R37, because a trans woman had pointedly been asked to leave the Fest that same year and then the policy decision was made. Lisa Vogel had envisioned it as a space for natural born women. It was talked about a lot where I went to school in the LGBT community.

Do you get a free vagina cape with each purchase?

Makes me sad that Sara's vagina cape photo is gone from the Web.

Rock on, Syster Sara!

This thread is making me think about the “Man on the Land” episode of Transparent, in which we’re moved to tears as Maura is thrown out of a MichFest-type event for being trans.

Of course, since Jeffrey Tambor turned out to be a sex pest IRL, that complicates the message somewhat.

Someone must have downloaded the photos of Sara twirling in her vagina cape!

Here, R34:

Those MichFest threads of years past were the very best of Datalounge! Nutloaf, Breast Casting for Womyn of Color, and the classic "as a fat womon, would i be useful on garbage detail?" (actual query copypasted from a MichFest discussion board)

I feel for Lisa, large scale event planning and being the "blame point" for growing numbers of ncreasingly difficult personalities each year had to be utterly exhausting.

Those threads were a riot. And I appreciated the humor after seeing the real Michfest message boards.

There was one year that a woman was on the MichFest boards crying that she didn’t have the money that year to go and it was “her need”. A lament is one thing but this woman, the way she was going on, sounded like a bit of a grifter.

She asked if there was room to work in the kitchen and the moderator gave a measured response, warning that the kitchen experience is very, very different than being a regular Fest attendee.

Somebody actually paid her way, travel and everything. The event organizers -wisely- didn’t.

Some recipes for Nutloaf online don’t look too, too bad but I can’t imagine how it tastes when mass produced.

[quote]And you can't help but think how superficially gay men would have set up a similar music festival - which would have just been a sex fuelled rave.

Oh my stars!! How unthinkable!!

I don’t think any gay man would have devoted a festival to womyn’s music.

Silly, R29!

[quote] And you can't help but think how superficially gay men would have set up a similar music festival - which would have just been a sex fuelled rave.

They’re called Atlantis cruises and I go a couple of times a year.

I have clearly stated my boundaries.

My god the the big flopping titties, the vaginal flap overs and long distended mamaries, must have been a sight to behold, what about wet spots on the chairs? Was there a clean up crew?

The cheese ball

VOTN, are you telling us NOW so you don't have to tell us THEN? 😄

I don't recall what it was that first led me to DL, about ten years ago, but when I stumbled upon a Michfest thread, it was a hilarious revelation. I had not laughed so hard for a long time.

The michfest threads were hysterically funny. I remember reading the michfest board for the first time and giggling loud enough to get looks.

r47, I made it once out of curiosity. The recipe was published on the old Michfest forum. It's not like any of the other recipes you'll find online. Michfest "nut loaf" is a brown rice casserole with some tofu, walnuts (I think), and cheddar cheese (although the Festival Kitchen made sure there was a cheese-free version for dairy-allergic Festren). It's not at all loaf-like, and was very very bland. I had to literally 8x the seasonings (tamari, sage, marjoram, salt) to give it any flavor. It was edible.

A blast from the past.

Blahst from the pahst.

God, that sounds awful R56.

Here's the recipe. There's no egg or other binder, so no loaf.

That same blog

The Fest message boards were hilarious. Once they were locked down, we had to use our imagination.

I’m pretty sure they were locked down BECAUSE of DL. Somehow, word got all the way to them.

I blame Julie.

She’s a total cunt, R62.

I’m somewhat loathe to bring up the WBW policy, as I know that never leads anywhere good, but I do find it curious that Michfest chose to die rather than accept trans woman, while the other two major lesbian gatherings that I’m aware of, The Dinah and Olivia Cruises, are both still going strong and are accepting of trans woman (the Dinah also allows trans men). Michfest had been having financial issues for years before they pulled the plug, and I think really only held the final one because it was the 40th anniversary and they wanted to get one more in. I think I remember them even suggesting that the sisterwomen continue purchasing passes for sisterwomen who were no longer among the living as a remembrance, although there was no indication if the deceased sisterwomen were expected to do work shifts on the astral plane.

As much as I don’t agree with the policy, I guess I admire the dedication to pass into history rather than modernize.

I think Lisa had also had enough after 40 years and the controversy was enough of an excuse to take her toys and go home. I know for me it would be tough to keep going with a passion project I started when I was 20. Your youth and initial vim are getting blurrier and blurrier in the rear view mirror and, as they say, you can’t go home again. At some point I’d want to call it a day and plan out my twilight years unburdened by what has been (to borrow another phrase).

I'm pretty pro trans but I do understand wanting to have a weekend for just women born women.

r66 is a penised person.

Attention Michfest shoppers! We're all out of vagina capes. So future book purchases will be accompanied by a free Moon Cup.

R67 Man On The Land!

There’s a couple “gay adjacent” bath houses nearby that I go to once in a while. Not the ones with mazes of plywood bedrooms, instead just a few tubs and saunas in spa rooms that are segregated by gender. But all the men there know what all the men are there for. The last five or so years, whenever I go there’s almost always at least one, at most two, men there who have mastectomy scars and a groomed landing strip hovering over not male genitals. And I have to wonder — are you doing this specifically to be controversial and antagonistic? Are you silently screaming in righteous power and telling us NOW so you don’t have to tell us… when, exactly? The testosterone shots are not enough to compel you to do bath house stuff, surely.

Some of my best friends are trans. Okay, some of my acquaintances whom I hold in decent regard are trans. But I sympathize with the Michfest position. There are some places where women want to cut loose to some Indigo Girls solely among women who are “afab”. By the same token there are some places where I want to suck a couple dicks and would prefer to be only in the company of men who are “amab” and not have to look at vulvae. I’m not an MD. I’m not even a DO (perish the thought). If I don’t want to look at vaginas in sex-segregated spaces, I shouldn’t have to.

I knew women who went every year.

They should do it again - I'm sure it's a lot of work but it's a shame it closed after so many years. Particularly if it was due to what they said - although I find that hard to believe.

I think the words 'lesbian' and 'gay man' will eventually disappear. People want to be queer/fluid/non-binary, etc. now. The 90s was the apex of homosexuality.

I managed to scrape together the money for a ticket but can I bum a ride from one of you to get there? I’ll gladly pay in interpretive dance or slam poetry.

I’d love to be able to read some of those threads again.

Anybody remember what the going rate was for a ticket?

[quote] And I have to wonder — are you doing this specifically to be controversial and antagonistic?

Is it so hard to believe those guys might be there for the same reason that you’re there? To be in a sexual environment with other men? Why is that their very presence is about being provocative or to demand acceptance….instead of just wanting to be in an environment where they can be themselves?

Look, I’ve dated trans guys (I’m dating one now, in fact), and I know that makes me some kind of traitor or whatever. And I’m not saying that every cis gay guy has to be attracted to trans guys or they’re transphobic; I don’t think that. But the whole intentional misgendering and “drop the T” nonsense…aside from being bigoted, it’s tiresome. If some straight guy wanted you out of a locker room because he assumes that you’re just there to stare at this dick, you’d be pissed off and rightly so. To me, assuming that trans people want to be in sex-segregated spaces just for the purposes of being provocative is the same thing.

I’m not disputing the rights of the sisterwomen to exclude trans women, as much as I disagree with it. But I’m also kind of struck by the paradox—and frankly the hypocrisy—of what’s supposed to be an open space being so rigidly enforced. And I’m not just talking about WBW policy, I also mean things like the breast casting for womyn of color, or the woman who called the boy inmates at Camp Brother Sun “pre-rapists.” I don’t think I’d want minor children wandering around the Land either, but that level of hatred is pathological.

To me, the end of Michfest is honestly pretty sad. Because what I understand NOW that I’m not sure I understood THEN was that the week in the woods was something that sustained the sisterwomyn for the other 51 weeks of the year. Atlantis is kind of the same for me, so I get it now. But the whole Andrew Dworkin/second-wave/separatist feminism that Michfest was born out of was pretty out of fashion even by the time that the WBW policy stuff really started kicking up in the mid/late 90s. For good or ill, modern women don’t think about things the same way, and there weren’t enough of the crones to keep the thing alive. But it’s clear from the other examples I gave that there’s still a demand for woman-only spaces, they’re just a little flexible with what constitutes a woman. And no, I don’t think that a trans woman who hasn’t had bottom surgery should have open season to walk around flashing her cock for the sake of being a nuisance. But if she just wanted to enjoy the company, the music, the nutloaf, and any kind of (consensual) intimate encounters that she could find, what’s the harm?

Ultimately, I guess I’m hoping that somewhere in Missouri, Denise is still dreaming about the Rainbow Express and that wherever she is, Sarah is twirling in her vagina cape. And may all the Fat womyn everywhere be as useful of garbage detail as they want.

"... kind of struck by the paradox—and frankly the hypocrisy—of what’s supposed to be an open space"

Please. If gay people were straight they'd be the snootiest, most bigoted busybodies in town. Rigid political correctness approaching autism.

R76: "But I’m also kind of struck by the paradox—and frankly the hypocrisy—of what’s supposed to be an open space being so rigidly enforced."

When was Michfest ever "supposed to be an open space"? It wasn't. That was the whole point.

Trans people have access to all kinds of organizations and events that are clearly labeled "trans only", and no one bats an eye. But women try doing the same and all hell breaks loose, every damn time.

[quote]When was Michfest ever "supposed to be an open space"? It wasn't. That was the whole point.

But it’s not just the WBW thing, although that’s maybe the most obvious examples. Boundaries were enforced with a thoroughness that would have made the Stasi impressed. Not only did womyn of color need their own breast-casting (which, reasonable, I’m sure they’d need a break from the white sisterwomyn from time to time), but apparently the white womyn needed to be told it only applied to womyn who were of color in this lifetime. The comments about the boys in the concentration camp. The woman who would move your tent if it was too close to hers. The dog pile the non-vegetarian sisterwommon got when she said she wanted to bring meat to barbecue at her campsite.

And I think it’s perfectly legitimate for women, many of whom were sexual assault survivors, not wanting to see a flesh and blood penis, whether attached to a trans woman or otherwise. But also, some of the sisters would wandering around with strapons in full view, and is that somehow less triggering just because it’s shaped like a dolphin?

And of course, the way the sisterwomyn with visible disabilities (need a scooter, need a cane, etc) would treat about the womyn with.iinvisible ones

[quote] to bring meat to barbecue at her campsite.

[quote] not wanting to see a flesh and blood penis

If one of the womon had brought a penis (aka man meat) to sacrifice at the barbecue would that have been acceptable?

[QUOTE]the white womyn needed to be told it only applied to womyn who were of color in this lifetime.

I'm r22. I thought this happened at a workshop for Native American women. Am I conflating the two groups or did the "in this lifetime" have to be specified for two workshops?

I believe everybody should have their own spaces. I can understand women wanting women only spaces, and trans people wanting the same. MichFest was not a publicly funded event and had a right to make their own rules.

“I thought this happened at a workshop for Native American women“

Oh, was Buffy Sainte-Marie there?

If the fest had let trans women in, it would have killed it. If they didn’t let trans women in, it would have killed it. And it happened.

There was a subset of trans women (MTFs, to use the acronym) who were so intense about finding and disrupting ANY women-exclusive space that they could possibly find and disrupt. I mean to go all the way to that festival in order to fight about being allowed in, I have to wonder if any of them actually had an interest in hearing any of the music, or were they just coming there to wage war against "the TERFs".

[QUOTE]There was a subset of trans women (MTFs, to use the acronym) who were so intense about finding and disrupting ANY women-exclusive space that they could possibly find and disrupt... or were they just coming there to wage war against "the TERFs".

Sometimes with deadly consequences.

R86, not relevant. That was in no way connected to MichFest.

Why are you so sure?

From the article at R88:

[quote] was discovered shot to death on the front lawn of the death house

[quote] Rivers had been part of a group called Camp Trans, and members fought against MichFest, an annual women-only festival for lesbians held in Michigan until 2015 when it was cancelled over the trans issue.

[quote] Rivers and other activists picketed against the event and detectives believe that was where she met her alleged victims, who regularly attended the festival.

I dreamed last night that my house was invaded by squirrels with purple hair and realized I shouldn’t read DL before bedtime.

Now that bi-sexuality and transsexuality are more accepted, I don't think there's enough hardcore lesbians to even have a fest. And people don't want to be an isolated minority anymore.

Are you going to Fest?

I finally finished listening to this book on Audible. I just did a back and forth drive to Florida from Philadelphia, so I had plenty of dead air to fill after running out of my regular podcasts. Clocking in at twelve hours long, it’s about 50% too long. It’s not a linear narrative — the chapters mostly each focus on a “theme” or topic, and there’s a ton of redundant mise en scène.

It’s at times pretty interesting if you’re someone like (I assume) most of us on this thread who know enough about Michfest to laugh our asses off about how serious and woo-woo the ladies used to take themselves on the forums. The book is also at all times very self-serious and woo-woo throughout, with tons of “goddess” this and “Gaia” that. As noted above, there was a chapter called “Cilantro” that focused on how hard it was to satisfy everyone and to “hold space” for everybody’s unique brand of bullshit. There’s a chapter about right-wing blowback they got when women were describing in detail, on the forums, a seminar on female ejaculation where the gals started competing to see who could squirt the farthest. Some Christian blogger started copy-pasting those forum entries juxtaposed by discussions of childcare and bringing their teen daughters to ‘fest. Hilarity didn’t ensue.

It was interesting to hear her side of the whole trans controversy. As she tells it, they asked one MtF to leave the festival in 1991 mostly for causing a ruckus, but then subsequently never turned any trans away. There were supposedly mtm’s and ftm’s attending throughout the 2000s without incident. It was in the 2010s when trans were emboldened and orgs like HRC started bending over backwards to limitlessly placate them that things hit the skids. They started demanding that Michfest become less explicitly for and about “women”. They made a big stink and got people to boycott it and harass musicians who were performing there. She says basically that the trans were a huge pain in the ass and the pile-on from LGBT advocacy groups was pretty taxing.

She more attributes the decision to end Michfest to lesbians changing and younger womyn not really giving as much of a shit about radical feminism and escaping the patriarchy and secluding themselves from heterosexuals and men specifically. Attendance had been dwindling, the trans shit made it worse, and they becoming more and more insolvent.

[quote] mtm’s and ftm’s

What's a "mtm"?

Were boundaries stated, R93?

Mary Tyler Moore wannabes, R94.

I want to bump this because it’s not only a good thread but it’s funny and I need to laugh.

The DL Michefest threads were always very funny.

It's impossible to work with a community of stubborn people who all have different exacting expectations.

What I keep learning again and again is that gender and sexuality are too messy for people who are absolutists of any kind.

Keep your anti-sex, man hating condescension, R29. Educate yourself about the male equivalents of MichFest who were actually inspired by it: Radical Faeries, Midwest Men’s Festival, California Men’s Gathering, and Romanofsky & Phillips are some key words for your edification should you care to unclench.

[quote]Clocking in at twelve hours long, it’s about 50% too long

If that’s not MichFest in a nut(loaf) shell..,

I miss the sisterwomyn. But their time has passed.

The long threads about the Breastcasting for Womyn of Color workshop (where lateness would NOT be tolerated!) and Rainsong's fight with the other womyn ("I have stated my boundaries again") were two of the funnest in Datalounge's history, and for once it wasn't becasue of the dataloungers' witty comments. The womyn posting on the MWMF website forum seemingly had no idea what caricatures they were.

Wasn’t the site of The Land in Hart, MI not especially far from the Michigan Militia people?

The forums are what got them in hot water with the Jerry Falwell type religious groups. In the book Lisa talks about some enterprising Christian nationalist blogger or whatever who started trawling the forums for “incriminating” info. In particular, this woman got all spun out after finding a thread about a “how to squirt” seminar that had been hosted by some lesbian porn woman or something, where basically a bunch of attendees were publicly making themselves “squirt” as part of the curriculum. I think the woman tried to insinuate that there were children present at the seminar and that in general children were being endangered, abused, and indoctrinated at Fest.

[quote]Was there any mention of the concentration camp for men/boys outside the main gate of Michfest?

More importantly, was there any mention of The Datalounge?

[quote]The forums are what got them in hot water with the Jerry Falwell type religious groups. In the book Lisa talks about some enterprising Christian nationalist blogger or whatever who started trawling the forums for “incriminating” info.

Those people are absolute scum.

I never would have wanted to go to a festival where you had to sign up for work shifts. Granted, they were only a couple of hours apiece but still…

And it prob kept down the cost of a ticket. Somebody asked above what the ticket cost was, anybody know?

Feeling that your same-sex gathering is completely ruined by the presence of a handful of trannies is the exact same energy of some MAGA bible thumper acting like their life is ruined because gay people exist. Just like in every other aspect of life, the less you worry about what other people are doing, the happier you will be.

Many of these women came to MichFest to be around other women. Again, it’s a private gathering. I can understand them not wanting to see make genitalia. A penis is a penis no matter how you identify.

And from one of the posts above, it sounds like there was more to the 1991 incident than them just being trans. But once people get ahold of any story, they stick to it.

Here's the infamous cape photo.

“Sara twirls her vagina cape by the night stage”.

[quote]“Sara twirls her vagina cape by the night stage”.

That was the original opening to "Rhiannon," before Warner Bros. made Stevie Nicks rework it.

r103, once you get out of the Detroit-Ann Arbor nexus you're never far from a militia.

Sara is everything. Her vagina cape and her "hairy pussies" t-shirt give us life.

I never really thought about lesbians being into group sex/orgies. Perhaps I did not want to.