POPE Francis on tgexway out

Trying to get ratings for Conclave??

tgexway?

Help me to muster up some sympathy…I’m drawing a blank here…

I like Pope Francis. I don't want him to die. I want Musk and Trump to die before Francis. I wanted him to be able to say, Fuck you to them.

[quote]Help me to muster up some sympathy…I’m drawing a blank here…

He's the best Pope in modern history with regard to any cause that might be important to us.

Folks should also recognize that with the mood in key catholic countries, whoever they get to replace him would very likely be a hardliner conservative who would undo most of what small progress the church has made under Francis.

You may not support him or that church, but cheering for his death is counterproductive and against our current interests.

Sad last days!!

Expect a right-wing, neo-fascist extremist, highly sympathetic to Trump, to be elected Pope, when Francis goes. The new pope will make neo-Nazi Pope Benedict look like a raging hippie.

Has Patsy Stone weighed in yet?

He needs to retire.

Cue Ralph Fiennes and Isabella Rossellini to stand by for a sequel.

I hope it will be Zuppi

His Holiness's life is moving peacefully towards its end.

"... with blood transfusions and yet another complication related to anemia"

Sounds like leukemia. But you didn't hear that from me, no you did not.

Bring back Ratzinger!

When that illegal alien is gone, only I can interpret doctrine.

OP are you inside Vatican City? How do you know the scoop?

I said it in the other thread, but the anemia is probably because he's bleeding somewhere in his body, and either they don't know where or he's in too poor shape for surgery. So they gave him blood transfusions to replace the blood he's losing.

OP I'm not a fan of Pope Francis, but it's disturbing that you are weighing in on anyone's medical care consumption in that way. You don't know enough and aren't there.

Re r17’s post, I have an incredibly stupid question that just occurred to me. If he’s anemic because he’s losing blood, where is that blood going?

DL doctors, want to chime in?

R18, I don’t understand. I mean it’s pretty obvious he’s in dire condition. The Vatican itself says he’s in critical condition. So I don’t see where OP has misspoken.

r18, you fully realize you are on a [italic]gossip[/italic] site, right?

You can drop the sanctimoniousness.

[quote] He also had blood transfusions after tests revealed thrombocytopenia, which is associated with anemia.

I just read that he has a specific condition, not what I said in r17.

Link

r13 Agreed. Leukemia isn't uncommon at his age.

Adios.

I didn't realize he'd turned into Uncle Fester. Old age is a bitch.

Is it of a severity necessary to cancel my candelight supper?

Blood transfusions are immoral, and are condemned by Jehovah God in thy Bible.

He endorsed Trump for president and called Harris a babykiller. But he's probably a very nice man and we should wish him a full and speedy recovery.

[quote]Blood transfusions are immoral, and are condemned by Jehovah God in thy Bible.

Oddly enough, the Pope is not a JW.

He did not endorse Trump.

He didn't endorse either. Said to pick the less of 2 evils, but didn't say which one he would.

R5 has it right. Pope Francis has been the most 'liberal' pope in generations, if in all time.

He also said that homosexuality is not a crime. Says it is a sin, because it's sex outside of marriage, but didn't say it was because it was same sex.

Damn, Francis is nine years younger than my father but looks ten years older, while Zuppi is exactly my brother's age but looks 15 years older.

Does a life of celibacy make you age like clabber milk?

[quote]Pope Francis has been the most 'liberal' pope in generations, if in all time.

He's the only one I've liked since John Paul I.

[quote] I have an incredibly stupid question that just occurred to me. If he’s anemic because he’s losing blood, where is that blood going?

The alien inside is eating it!

Given the long history of anti-Catholic sentiment in the US, and fears that the pope would order Catholics to vote for this or that candidate, he did the right thing endorsing neither Trump nor Harris. I saw that as a lapsed Catholic who hates the Church and hates Trump.

[quote] He's the best Pope in modern history with regard to any cause that might be important to us.

[quote]Folks should also recognize

Folks? Ugh. The Catholic Church only has power in third world shitholes. It’s a criminal organization.

Popes endorse presidential candidates?

[quote] He's the best Pope in modern history with regard to any cause that might be important to us.

Low bar. Do you really think one Pope is going to change Church doctrine no matter how he softens the language of discrimination and exclusion? Francis said homosexuality is not a crime, it's a sin. This is hardly groundbreaking that the Church does not advocate jailing us any longer.

Yes he seems a decent man but he supports an indecent system so...no. His life and death will make no difference whatsoever for the Catholic church. Thinking otherwise is normalizing Church doctrine, corruption and autocracy.

R37 Oh, sweetie, I’m not anti-catholic. I’m anti-religion as a whole.

"on tgexway out" should become a DL meme. It could replace "circling the drain".

Elon, how are you doing on that executive order proclaiming me as Pope Krasnov I?

[quote]Do you really think one Pope is going to change Church doctrine no matter how he softens the language of discrimination and exclusion?

There is a lot of space between changing church doctrine and leading a zealous charge to enforce draconian (and hypocritical) church policies.

I'd rather have someone softening language, as we know that language and ideology go hand-in-hand, than someone calling for fire and brimstone punishments.

The next pope better be black.

Pope Krasnov, The Antichrist, R43.

[quote] I'd rather have someone softening language, as we know that language and ideology go hand-in-hand, than someone calling for fire and brimstone punishments.

FFS softening the language and keeping fire and brimstone punishments is called propaganda. Do you know any history at all?

R42 That’s what I said.

So is is no longer shopping Piggly Wiggly?

R40, while i not disagree, he was the most progressive Pope. Yes, it is the Catholic Church, you cant overcome certain (surely, to me, an atheist, obnoxious, things).

Bur for all his faults he was a voice of tolerance and gave an important message on important issues (immigration fpr instance). He also was important in tempering and making Catholics reconsider a number of issues, even being gay. He had a spat with JD Vance two weeks ago. The extreme right hates him. I doubt the next one will be as outspoken and in the current political climate he will be misse.

Why on Earth do you care about the Catholic Church? Are you Catholic?

R51, the Pope, for better or worse,is political and influences millions of people. Are you twelve?

If he dies, I wonder if lightning will strike The Vatican like when the last guy died.

Die bastard die, god damned god botherers. Who gets the gold candlesticks?

He was 88!

Looks like we will be getting CONCLAVE and not THE TWO POPES.

Die NOW!

Just DIE!

R19

The stool, oftentimes.

[quote]POPE Francis on tgexway out

I'm equally concerned about OP.

Any update?

88 is apparently the new prime twilight age - too old for the job IMHO but I'm terrified to see what road they go down with the next one.

So young.

BREAKING: Pope Francis rested during a peaceful night following a respiratory crisis and blood transfusions, the Vatican said.

The brief update came after doctors said the 88-year-old pope, who had part of one lung removed as a young man, was in critical condition. On Saturday morning, he suffered a prolonged asthmatic respiratory crisis while being treated for pneumonia and a complex lung infection.

[quote] the Pope, for better or worse,is political and influences millions of people.

Maybe in third world shitholes. He has no power and the Western world doesn’t care about the Vatican except to put its members behind bars.

He's not on a ventilator, which is a good sign. He might actually pull through, in spite of asshole OP's desire for him to die.

He already died. They're just making preparations.

What concerns me is that it’s been a long downward spiral of health issues. He started using a wheelchair a few years ago and now pneumonia. That tells me he is on his way out.

The Catholic Church is a mixed bag for obvious reasons, but Pope Francis did as much anyone could've realistically done to try to modernize and reform the insular and bureaucratic Catholic Church. He tried to embrace an attitude of love & tolerance - which is a good thing since the Evangelicals have commandeered hate & intolerance - even if perhaps his message was more muddled than anyone would've liked. I just hope his successor is a younger man, hopefully from Africa perhaps, with a vision and the bureaucratic support to lead the Church out of the mess they've created for themselves.

Now if some other elderly person (about 78, I believe) would finally succumb to age & the abuses his body endures....

God has gotten tired of him, and though I’m not Catholic, I have too.

Tell us more, r69.

Miss R66 must have insider info!

“Peaceful night” could also mean he’s in hospice.

Can't wait for him to die, R72?

Someone up-thread said he read the pope has thrombocytopenia. That means low platelet count. Platelets allow blood to clot. This could be idiopathic (unknown reason) or autoimmune. Sometimes the spleen takes up the platelets. The end result is bleeding out and anemia. While you can get some bleeding in the skin resulting in characteristic petechiae (like small bruises), most blood loss is in the GI tract. People with severe thrombocytopenia can potentially bleed from anywhere.

The opposite actually R73. Not looking forward to JD Vance dancing on his grave.

Vance, R75?

[quote] JD Vance dancing on….

& humping Lá Sènātrice’s yellow office couch.

R50 and R68 summed it up well.

On the Australian evening news tonight it said they'd started giving him oxygen, so the downhill slide is continuing. He might pull through, if God makes one of his increasingly rare efforts, but it sounds like a lot of things are packing up on him. He looks quite puffy in his recent photos, which could be weight gain, but in the circumstances it's more likely to be corticosteroids.

He'has some good intentions. He's also a bit of a number and not the sharpest guy.

I doubt am African candidate is going to bring a liberalized papacy. Probably just the opposite.

It will be interesting to see if the authoritarian and reactionary trend in politics will have parallel in the past election.

He’s the head of a cult.

he's useless

he wears a funny hat

[quote] He'has some good intentions.

paving the road to hell

Can we talk about how much of an asshole John Paul II was?

[quote]Surprised they don't just make him comfortable and wind down the care

Honey, that's not what Catholics do.

Will KKKlarence & Ginny pick the next pope?

Get over here, Popey- I got a favor to ask.

WOW 😮

He just has The Vapors.

My first Pope was John XXIII. Through all of them, the Church has pretty much gone the way the local bishops and cardinals wanted it to go--locally.

Expecting him to recover and function moderately a few more years doesn’t appear realistic. It is failing health of a very elderly man that’s not reversible in any comprehensive way.

It looks like based on what they are saying, this is a systemic failure and if he doesn't turn the corner and improve this week, he's done. He won't be able to handle anything else going wrong.

[quote]I doubt am African candidate is going to bring a liberalized papacy. Probably just the opposite.

Exactly. An African pope would feel the need to be extra conservative -- out-Catholic the other Catholics -- since he'd be a "first." Kinda like JP2.

they don't have as much pull or influence anymore...

r95 Catholicism is alive and well in the impoverished nations except Brazil which is turning Evangelical.

[Quote] Has Patsy Stone weighed in yet?

Yes, and she weighs exactly one stone, funnily enough.

I remember when Pope Benedict died two years ago I was living in Rome. Out of curiosity I went to St. Peter’s to see the body lying in rest. The line mi ex pretty fast. And with it being January there weren’t guards of tourist.

He seemed so small. And they had him laid out on a table bare as can be. His little shoes a big akimbo. The table was at a slight angle for better viewing. It was like when they were done, they could just keep raising the table up and he’d slide right into the garbage.

I took the picture below.

r98 Those clodhoppers are a good size. Biggus feetus.

He's fine- leave 'im alone!

They were tiny. He was just shrunken and the perspective of the photo. Maybe size 8.

R96 We must read the same articles. Brazil is on pace to be 50-50% evangelical/Catholic in ten years.

R96, again living in Rome, all of the young nuns were brown or Asian. They were either from South America, Africa, or India/Asia. You were hard pressed to find a young white nun. The Catholic Church right now is very Sister Mary Indigenous.

[quote] Can we talk about how much of an asshole John Paul II was?

Asshole? Try criminal.

At least the Christians in the US see Catholicism for what it is - evil.

[quote] My first Pope was John XXIII.

Oh, you fucked him?

Who didn't, R106?

He really was a decent chap as Popes go.

Better than that cunt Bernadette Ratfucker and her red Prada pumps.

He’s fine! He sends his love!

This is so sad. He looked beautiful at David's wedding.

Vatican says Franny has "minor kidney failure"

Organs failing is typically a sign that the body is shutting down. A rebound is very unlikely, especially at that age.

Once kidneys go, that's kinda it. He's too old and frail for dialysis.

what's a minor kidney failure? Sounds like a soft-landing is coming...

His labs are probably a bit off. But, at this stage, they don't tend to get better.

[quote]At least the Christians in the US see Catholicism for what it is - evil.

Fuck off.

And furthermore, R105, Catholics are Christians too. The first ones, in fact.

[quote]Fuck off.

Sure. Send over a few altar boys...

What a diva to die like this during a Jubilee year.

He's 88. It's not unexpected, but we need a pope like him right now, who will stand up and counter that racist, sexist, irresponsible imbecile in the White House..

One who could do that is the Cardinal-Archbishop of Newark.

R94, I think you don’t understand the African Catholic churches.

R120 Are you Catholic? If so you have delusions of grandeur. What on god's green earth do you think a Pope could do about Trump?

I might have already said it, but reports say he's receiving "high flows of oxygen." At some point that will not be enough, and they will have to intubate him. If they aren't at that point, it's any day now. But I suspect that's what they've done this weekend. From intubation, there's no going back. He'll be even more heavily sedated and unable to speak.

R19 before I knew I had colon cancer, I had such bad anemia that when the lab tests came back, I was sent to the ER. I never asked where it was coming out but apparently it was my butt, but not enough to notice. Little by little over months, or years.

[quote]before I knew I had colon cancer, I had such bad anemia that when the lab tests came back, I was sent to the ER.

I get anemia from doing poppers, so that's another possibility.

R125 yikes. Never had the chance to do poppers.

There's also something to do with bone marrow that can cause anemia.

Is "on tgexway out' the new DL "sad last days?"

He’s on high-flow oxygen, and is also developing renal failure. He might recover from the pneumonia and be okay. Or he might worsen and would likely need intubation and probably dialysis.

He might have made the decision not to be intubated if it gets to that point if he doesn’t want it.

Sad last days!

When did Fred Mertz become pope???

Does that mean Ethel is Mrs. Pope???

Place your bets!

And they’re off to the races!

Is ifsh Friday still a thing?

R133 is Liza Minnelli.

I was molested.

R122, the pope has political impact, specially since a lot of the right are catholics, even in the USA. So the right Pope can still be a voice of opposition o certain far-right extreme politcs, as this was (th far right everywhere detested him). Vance, new born catholic opportunist, was denounced by this Pope 2 weeks ago. So yeah, it is important, specially since they can’t outright call him off as woke or socialist.

I do hope Isabella Rosellini gives him a nice nespresso as he goes.

I had thought all popes would now abdicate. For him to die in the position is now a bit unexpected fo me.

Is Pope before Francis that made the unusual move to retire is still living?

R139 No, Pope Benedict died in 2022.

Benedict's resignation was an anomaly for modern popes, at least. According to a PBS Frontline "Secrets of the Vatican" it may have had to financial stuff he was finding out about. I can't recall specifics. I saw it when it first broadcast. Now's a good time to rewatch.

R122, the pope has already called out that Dangerous Idiot and his cohorts. He may not have divisions, but he does have moral standing.

"to do with financial stuff..." at r141.

Pope Francis with the Trumps. He totally loathed being around them.

I’m ready and have friends in the White House!

Pope Francis with the Obamas. He may have disagreed with them on some things, but was probably overall happy to be around them.

During the visit, the pope made a comment to Melania "You're keeping him fat with _____" It was the name of some Slovenian pastry. I just love that he essentially called him a fat whore.

R146, looking at that picture makes me depressed for so much better times

I have no idea how true to life THE TWO POPES was but it was a great movie.

No more poop from the pope, good riddance to filthy trash, I hope he suffers like all the people the church made suffer and die.

The Vatican is run by (hopefully unindicted) mediocre white guys who gave us Ratzi the Nazi. This is a tone deaf zombie organization that bends at the knee for every European autocrat like it’s 1942.

You’d think they’d look at Africa, South, or Central America for a pope who looks more like the congregation.

[quote]I get anemia from doing poppers, so that's another possibility.

Isn't the Pope a little old for poppers?

R152 That and I would think priests would be giving alter boys the poppers. Probably telling them it's part of the Eucharist. Take a whiff and bend over.

R151 For whatever the reasoning the Vatican helped support the Nazis during WW2 , although secretly. After the war was over they provided assistance in helping move Nazis to safe havens across Europe and South America.

[quote] For whatever the reasoning the Vatican helped support the Nazis during WW2

The reasoning, if you want to call it that, R154, has been established. Pius didn't want to be on the receiving end of Hitler's wrath, so he played it neutral for the entire war.

Good fucking riddance. This cunt, just like Pius in WWII, is on the wrong side of history with Ukraine.

The Vatican says he is still in critical condition as of tonight.

R155 The Vatican were not neutral, they were pro Nazi. Big difference.

[quote] You’d think they’d look at Africa, South, or Central America for a pope who looks more like the congregation.

Francis himself is from Argentina. I'm all for an African pope except all the candidates are horrible right wing assholes. There's a Filipino cardinal who would be good.

R158, that's untrue that the Vatican was pro-Nazi. Be accurate. Pius had anti-semitic leanings, but he wasn't pro-Nazi.

There is significant documented proof that the Vatican helped Nazi Germany during and after WWII.

I read Hitler's Pope, R161. To say the Vatican actively engaged in collaboration with the Nazis is not the case. But do give all the evidence that says otherwise, with facts.

R161 The legacy of Pius XII regarding the Nazis and Jewish genocide remains clouded. There is no clear-cut answer. However, there are numerous documents proving that Pius XII directed monasteries, convents and churches throughout Italy to hide Jews from from German roundups. Some estimate that his efforts resulted in saving as many as 100,000 Jews (mostly Italian Jews, and some Hungarian Jews) from the death camps. One of the beneficiaries of that effort was Israel Zolli, the Chief Rabbi of Rome. He was kept safe from German persecution by being hidden in the Vatican. He was so touched that Catholics there risked their own safety to rescue him that he later converted to Catholicism.

However, it is undisputable that Pius XII never, not once, issued a clear-cut condemnation of Hitler's policies, nor did he mention the Jews in particular. Instead, he'd write things such as, " God regards all peoples and races as worthy of the same consideration" and "Mankind owes that vow to the numberless exiles whom the hurricane of war has torn from their native land and scattered in the land of the stranger; who can make their own the lament of the Prophet: "Our inheritance is turned to aliens; our house to strangers." Mankind owes that vow to the hundreds of thousands of persons who, without any fault on their part, sometimes only because of their nationality or race, have been consigned to death or slow extermination."

The Vatican, like Switzerland, Sweden, and Ireland, was officially neutral during WWII. Of course, it has no army anyway. But it has moral authority among Catholics. So I think there's justifiable anger at the Vatican remaining neutral when the moral depravity of what Germany was doing to the Jews was so grave. Pius' defenders claim that he was threading the needle on remaining neutral and trying to protect Catholic priests and bishops in Nazi-occupied Europe and reacting to the horrible atrocities that were happening with very tepid statements. Other people feel that if he had only made direct condemnations, it could potentially have made some difference in the war - more Catholics in Germany might have resisted conscription, for instance.

All true, R163. Pius was wet in all his useless statements in an effort to protect himself and the Church, and ineffectual to say the least. Neutrality on the level Pius practiced it was actually harmful, I would say. But of course there was no active collaboration with the Nazis as was previously stated by someone above.

You know a Catholic thread is going to hit at least 200 posts on Datalounge.

Idiot at r165 doesn't seem to comprehend why.

R158 and R161 are spewing shit out their assholes.

Many of the Nazi who managed to escape after WW2 went through Vatican channels.

Radio or tv channels?!

You’re an idiot.

Who cares about Nazi's, is he dead or not?

R170, you have to get your news alerts from Datalounge?

He's awake. He's fine. He sends his love.

Suffer like Jesus bitch, can someone nail him to a fucking cross or something and be done with it?!!!

[quote]R117: The first ones, in fact.

No, babe, they weren't.

The Proto-Catholics didn't enter the picture until near the end of the 2nd century, fulminating against the Marcionism which had preceded them. The Catholics forged much of the New Testament in an effort to neutralize the Marcionites and their fellow travelers, the Docetists, the Encratites, the Nazoreans, Simonians, and others.

[quote]R121: I think you don’t understand the African Catholic churches.

This commenter agrees with your R94.

[quote]R136: So yeah, it is important, specially since they can’t outright call him off as woke or socialist.

Catholic conservatives, sedevacantists, and Pius X'ers already say this about Francis, and have been calling for his death for years.

But I concur against R122's scorn that a pope can be formidable, politically. For instance, JPII joined Reagan in taking a wrecking ball to the old Soviet Union, delivering the kind of help that the Allies of WWII desperately needed in a pope (but didn't get). An energetic liberal pope could potentially help form a coalition of NATO nations to stand against Trump and Putin.

Spread your poison elsewhere. Your religion studies cosplay has become tiresome…your’re in JD Vance territory at this point.

R174 has it almost right.

Add the fact that no external evidence reflects the existence of a historical Jesus, the fact that none of the Christian gospels or epistles are based in reality and have been amended, altered and added to by committee since their inception, and then we can all address the "Faith" rationally.

Oy vey! ^^

No African or European, or North American, please.

At least Francis named the overwhelming majority of cardinal electors, so perhaps the outcome won't be as bad as it might have been.

The rightist reactionaries who are working with the neo-fascists have blocked progressive Catholic movement for decades, just like the GOP shits in the US have obstructed the forward-looking agendas of Clinton (with reservations here), Obama and Biden.

No pope in the last 250+ years has had to endure the shit Francis has, as the rabid right has chewed away at him.

Imma watch Conclave to night! I hope this Pope gets well enough to live and perform some of his duties. March 5th is Ash Wednesday and Lent and the Holy Week and Easter Sunday and that's an extremely busy time for him. Hang on Francis.

He won’t make it til Lent. Chaos ensues!

Conclave, the movie, is as relevant as PoisonedDragon’s last fever dream.

Elon Musk has announced his preferred new pope is Sheikh Hamdan al Maktoum.

Everyone give a “side salute” to our new, more efficient, direct pipeline to God.

God tells Sheikh Hamdan what to do and the infidels listen.

Hey, R183, as I understand it, the Conclave can name anyone as Pope and that means the person doesn't have to be an existing Cardinal or priest for that matter.

Wow you’re a certified “I understand” genius!

There’s not much to “understand”, R185. But I’ll make it clear for you: any baptized Catholic male can be Pope.

Why is every pope so OLD when taking office? Why can’t someone in his 40’s or 50’s be chosen?

Conclave was a good movie, but I doubt it plays out like that in real life. I assume it's a lot more ruthless and predetermined. There aren't going to be any surprises.

I think the Polish guy the Conservative who protected child molesters was fairly young.

young old, you mean?

R.187, the saying is, “After a fat pope, a thin pope.” They try to alternate between types, to follow a younger pope with an older one, a more conservative one with a more liberal one. Francis was meant as a change from the Nazi; he would be warmer, more fun—but also have a shorter time in office. He seems to have lived longer than anyone anticipated and got farther along with liberalizing things, relative to the Church’s previously established positions.

Church dogma will probably never change.

[quote] Conclave was a good movie, but I doubt it plays out like that in real life. I assume it's a lot more ruthless and predetermined. There aren't going to be any surprises.

I don't doubt for one second, while Pope Francis is still alive, that Interference and lobbying of Conservative Cardinals is already happening by JD Vance, Ross Douthat of the NY Times, Opus Dei, all the powerful white Catholic males that HATE Pope Francis ( and yes, hate is the correct word here to describe their loathing of Francis) to appoint a mean, homophobic, misogynist, pro unregulated capitalism, conservative Pope.

You just know that during the Conclave, Vance will be publicly mouthing off that the Cardinals need to reject a liberal Pope.

No shit R186

Dead yet?

R187 Becoming pope is basically the culmination of a life of service to the Church. It involves moving up the latter of the church hierarchy (from Priest to Bishop, Arch-Bishop, Cardinal) and this is a process, like any career, takes decades. Even after becoming a Cardinal, you have to have earned a reputation deemed worthy of being elected Pontiff. This is why most Popes in the last few centuries have been in their 60s by the time they assume the role. Electing a young pope comes with a few disadvantages, mostly the length of time they are in office. Up until Benedict XVI, contemporary popes stayed in office until they died. Given how long people are living these days, it pope elected at 50 could be in office for forty years which would likely be deem too long for one pope to be in power. Additionally, even if a younger people resigned, it would mean he would be in the background for decades. Francis has been fairly vocal in his dislike of having had Pope Benny in the background.

Can I have his things?

Not his ring.

DL should come up with the new papal name. Nominations now and poll during the conclave... Or would it be jumping the gun?

DL would vote for Sylvester.

R196, maybe he was not comfortable with Benedict in the background, but it has been reported that Francis wrote an undated letter of resignation and gave it to his most trusted aide in case his health incapacitated him significantly. He's only got one lung, and he is compromised, Now, they are telling us in so many words, that he is oxygen dependent and at a high flow. I suspect he is totally oxygen dependent.

I took care of someone close to me, elderly, with COPD. The oxygen thing is worrying because the use of oxygen at low flow for a few hours or even a few weeks is not dangerous. But Oxygen has a drying effect on the lungs, long term. He has probably been using oxygen increasingly over the past several years for hours at a time. This also puts an incredible strain on his heart. So maybe CHF. He is likely experiencing fluid build up too. Edema.

What happened in my case was the patient would have occlusions, (mucus blockages) and he coded. They would intubate him, then he would stabilize, and after a week or so they would remove the ventilator and it would start all over again. Rinse, repeat. My patient used oxygen for about 3 years, 24/7 but at a low flow. Towards the end, they gave him a tracheotomy with a tube they attached to a ventilator. That avoided the stress of intubating him, and made it easier for them to clear his lungs when they got blocked too.

But the problem with Oxygen long term is that it dries out your lungs and they lose elasticity. Think of a rubber band that is flaccid. Once your lungs lose elasticity, you drown in the fluids that accumulate, Pulmonary edema. Horrible way to go. Truly. If Pope Francis is suffering in this way, I sincerely hope his heart gives out and he goes in peace. Keeping him alive, with extreme measures and machines would be awful. Staying on a high flow of oxygen indefinitely, would eventually destroy his lung function. I think they're running out of options.

Please no more fuglies. We have to think about the brand.

R201 I believe the letter of resignation was earlier in his tenure (honestly I think people didn't expect Benny to live as long as he did). In recent years, Francis has stated he sees the job of pope as being for life. It's clear he's not going to recover and if he was going to resign, I think he would've done it by now.

[quote]DL should come up with the new papal name.

Luigi

Shit or get off the pot.

R201, thanks for the “mini lesson,” you are correct, you know your stuff. Similarly, the longer you’re on a ventilator, the worse the outcome… I know the Pope isn’t ventilated, but it’s what happened for people with Covid (including a few of my family member). For the Pope, they need to clear his infection quickly because of the reason you cited. It doesn’t seem like that’s happening.

Wanted to add—one of my relatives was ventilated from Covid and what happened was what you described, he ended up having a heart attack and dying, although his lungs were actually clearing up.

One of the reasons I fucking hate Dump is my relative did all the right things, he vaccinated as soon as he could. But he was given Covid by an asshole Dump supporter friend who thought Covid was a hoax (and before the second vaccine could take effect). Of course, asshole friend still lives.

Pope Francis is continuing his recovery from pneumonia in hospital and has resumed some work, the Vatican announced Tuesday morning.

[quote] Pope Francis is continuing his recovery from pneumonia in hospital and has resumed some work, the Vatican announced Tuesday morning.

Will this officially be categorized as a miracle?

Turns out "tgexway" is longer than you'd think.

Welcome on board Tgexway! Now go mingle with you new friends, WHET, Vairst Letty and Bearking and all the other lexical idiosyncrasies going down here at the DataLounge.

This is tgex way.

That mistyping in the header is a fucking eyesore.

I am tgez way and the trzigh and the loaef. No one curgx to the Father except tkitim me.

[Quote] The Vatican were not neutral, they were pro Nazi.

Zionist nonsense

Pope Pius XII was intent on saving the Vatican's art more than helping Jews. That is a proven fact. He got along fine with the Nazi High Command when t hey went to Italy. Was watching a documentary last night and so many people knew about Auschwitz by 1940, the plan to exterminate was leaking out thanks to Polish resistance fighters and people who actually escaped the camps and it was ignored by The US, by the British, by the Red Cross, and by the Catholic Church, etc. Pope Pius was a POS. That's why he never completed the steps towards sainthood. It is shameful. We focus on the survivors stories of people who experienced the Holocaust But slowly we are beginning to hear the stories of those who did not believe or who refused to acknowledge what was happening as it happened. Those fuckers even forged letters to assure loved ones they were in camps and working and those letters were shown to the Red Cross. If you come across any WW II stories focusing on Poland watch them.

Stop using my name! It's wounds!

"tgexway out" conjures up an image of the Pope zipping off this mortal coil on a Segway to meet St. Peter. That would make a cute AI generated picture. Anybody?

“tgexway” is Elon Musk’s newest child’s name.

I want Pope Dreamy.

I dabbled in tgexway with one of the Baldwin brothers.

They should simply ask Jeremy Scott to substitute until they get their shit together.

I once read that in South America they allowed priests to marry, or t hey ordained men who were married. I don't know if it's true. I think it would be cool if they picked a man who was married and had a family with a Gay son and a Lesbian daughter.

R223 There are rare cases of Roman Catholic priests that are married. Mainly Anglican/Episcopal married priests that convert to catholicism. They can be ordained as Catholic priests and keep the wife, but can't remarry. I'm not sure that they would be eligible to become bishops or cardinals, let alone a pope.

Married Greek Orthodox priest converts are also allowed in the Catholic church. This was instituted by John Paul II in response to priest shortages. I don't how many took up the conversion offer.

"Married Catholic priests? There are perhaps 120 in the U.S. already. Here’s how"

I've prayed to Our Lady of Guadalupe for a peaceful exit for Francis. I know that just invites scorn, but I think he's a good man doing his best within the confines of the bureaucracy he inherited. I worry about who will take his place.

If anyone insight into married Roman Catholic priests a good to book to read is Patricia Lockwood's memoir Priestdaddy. Patricia's father Greg was a Lutheran minister who converted to Catholicism and was later ordained a priest.

Fwiw, r227, No scorn from me and I'm a non-believer.

Spiritual nourishment comes in many forms and to quote Pope Francis, "Who am I to judge?"

R229. Thanks, Della. That means a lot to me.

Smoooches, Doll.

I hope the next Pope tells my family where my body is.

[quote]R177: your’re in JD Vance territory at this point.

An incoherent insult. Couch-fucking? Or are you trying to imply that I'm somehow right-wing?

[quote]R182: Conclave, the movie, is as relevant as PoisonedDragon’s last fever dream.

I've never seen 'Conclave.' Do you recommend it?

[quote]R169: Radio or tv channels?!

See link below.

That link doesn’t actually support your assertion. Hudal and rando Croatians does NOT = The Vatican.

[quote]R234: That link doesn’t actually support your assertion.

Actually, it does. You didn't read any of it. Or you're troll-parsing it so that unless it stated that Pius XII actually rolled up his sleeves and carried it out in person, then 'the Vatican' didn't do it. Much the same argument has been used in support of Hitler, who never personally killed any Jews himself - the entire murder machine was run by underlings, leaving Hitler's hands clean.

But then, at R177 you did self-identify as the "one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church troll."

[quote]R178: has it almost right.

Oh, "almost" right, huh?

[quote]Add the fact that no external evidence reflects the existence of a historical Jesus, the fact that none of the Christian gospels or epistles are based in reality and have been amended, altered and added to by committee since their inception, and then we can all address the "Faith" rationally.

Since I've been hammering away at this fact on the DL for some six years, I didn't feel that it was necessary to add it again. Besides, the question of which sectarian group was "first" doesn't really entail the literary characters from Christian fiction, including its 'savior.'

Give a dog a bone…he will keep linking to anything.

r227 why Our Lady of Guadalupe?

The times call for Our Lady of Fátima. It's more end times oriented, dystopian, and speaks to our age.

Lourdes is considered the most credible apparition.

Because the poster is Mexican, Rose.

R238, I assumed that R227 preferred a New World apparition, in honor of Francis being from Argentina.

Por un porteño:

OP...

I hope tgex is doing okay

BREAKING: Pope Francis suffered a "sudden worsening of his respiratory condition," after an "isolated attack of bronchospasm," the Vatican said on Friday.

Circling the drain!

And you thought Conclave was good!

I just saw a report that he nosedived earlier today and they put him on a ventilator. Get those obits ready...

I heard reports that he aspirated and is on “noninvasive ventilation”, which usually means BIPAP via a mask. Aspiration is serious and usually requires intubation. They are probably having discussions about whether they want to go down that route or not…because he’s unlikely to come off a ventilator if they put him on.

That’s not what happened on The Pitt

“I heard reports that he aspirated…”

To quote Defs counsel’s expert in The Verdict, he threw up.

According to the NYT he's inhaling vomit.....

He seems to be taking tgexlongway out.

I think it appropriate to mention and to take time to acknowledge and honor the fact that the DL occupies the ancestral land of the Tgexlongway indigenous peoples.

We reflect...we honor...we pay homage to their bitchery.

He's getting better care than the miscarrying red state women currently bleeding out because hospitals refuse to admit them.

The timing of this is certainly beneficial to Putin, Trump, and Co.

He's in t he end stages of lung disease. Aspiration is common when the muscles in the throat/esophagus spasms. See my post at R201.

IF Pope Francis survives more than another month at most, I will be surprised.

Please, I don’t expect him to make it through the weekend.

[quote]I heard reports that he aspirated and is on “noninvasive ventilation”, which usually means BIPAP via a mask. Aspiration is serious and usually requires intubation.

My mom was on an air mask, which basically looks as if they're blasting air into your lungs. I remember saying to the nurse how awful that looked at she said (not unkindly) "well, I don't think she really...feels anything at this point." Which unfortunately was true.

Go to toward the light Francis, go towards the light!

Age, Georgius Mario Bergoglio. Tu requiem tuam merui.

Sad last hours.

Ideally, the Pope croaks Sunday during the Oscars and then Conclave wins!

It was Divine Will!

Surely they must be picking the next pope...discussing among themselves...DRAMA!

R255, there's nothing remotely comparable in those two situations.

Actually Pope Francis was in the middle of a fight with the Curia from day one and before he went to the hospital he created a commission to investigate Financial irregularities at the Vatican. Andin the Church as a whole. He was always more progressive than John Paul and Benedict. So the arguing we saw in The Conclave, in many ways represented real struggles. Pope John XXIII was the Pope when I was in High school and he was lovely. Very progressive. So the pendulum swung the other way and we ended up with a couple of ciphers and then we had John Paul wm I hated. He was a terrible Pope, and extremely Conservative. Rotten fucker covered up the sexual abuse allegations too. Him and Benedict. Filthy vermin. Francis was a breath of fresh air, but he was met with resistance. They wrote a book about him and his struggles. Worth reading. Marco Politi.

Pope Francis is involved in the coverup of the kidnapping of Emanuela Orlandi. He taunted the family saying that she was in heaven. He’s a piece of shit. The Vatican needs to be burned to the ground.

[quote]then we had John Paul wm I hated. He was a terrible Pope, and extremely Conservative. Rotten fucker covered up the sexual abuse allegations too. Him and Benedict. Filthy vermin. Francis was a breath of fresh air, but he was met with resistance.

Are Catholics allowed to talk this way about your popes? Aren't they considered infallible?

I don't think you understand the concept of infallibility as Catholic doctrine teaches it. It doesn't mean the pope is perfect or beyond human in his intellect or in any other sense and his everyday actions or pronouncements can be criticized just as we might criticize a politician. The doctrine of infallibility simply means that when the Pope speaks on a matter of doctrine, he is considered to be under the guidance of a higher power and those doctrines become official pronouncements of the church. If the Pope says that in his opinion, chocolate ice cream is better than all other flavors, Catholics are not required to go along with that opinion. But if he publishes an Encyclical (a solemn doctrinal document, usually written in Latin), that is supposed to become Church doctrine. That's why Paul VI's Encyclical on birth control (Humanae Vitae) fell like a turd in the punch bowl. Catholics desperately wanted to practice birth control like every other denomination on the planet, but the Pope had proclaimed that interfering with conception was a no-no. That was sort of the beginning of practicing Catholics publicly and privately, not following the Church doctrines which they didn't believe in.

PS I don't believe in the doctrine of the infallibility of Popes, I'm just letting you know what it's supposed to be according to traditional Catholic teaching.

Thanks, R269.

Good explanation R269. I believe it is called "Ex cathedra" when he speaks on Doctrine. As in "from the chair" of St. Peter. R268, If , by "allowed" you mean is it a "sin" to say Pope John Paul and Benedict were filthy vermin for covering up the sexual abuse of children, not just in a few cases, but as part of the institutional policy of the Church, then no, it isn't a "sin." The sexual abuse was Systemic and world wide. Since it's Oscar weekend, do yourself a favor and watch the movie Spotlight, with Michael Keaton, Mark Ruffalo and Liev Schrieber. It did a pretty good job, for a movie, of covering the biggest costliest scandal the Church has experienced in modern times. Excellent movie.

R270, Catholics believe that, while scripture is sacred, there are other sources of divine wisdom. You won’t be surprised to hear that those sources include (but are not limited to) the traditions and practices of the Church itself. Protestants typically accept only scripture

And people think Catholics are always close-minded! Hrrmph

[bold]The doctrine of papal infallibility was proclaimed in 1870 at the First Vatican Council. The doctrine states that the pope is infallible when he speaks on matters of faith and morals. [/bold]

The ex cathedra proclamation and concurrent infability was just a papal power grab. Did not exist before 1870. Not mentioned in Eastern or Orthodox churches, nor even mentioned by Luther and the Protestants.

It doesn't exist. Same for the Immaculate Conception of Mary, which was proclaimed in 1854. Speaking of Marian devotions, the four main Marian beliefs of Catholics are

Mary is the Mother of God (431, yes a human woman can give birth to God, what does that sound like?)

Mary was conceived without original sin (Immaculate Conception) (1854)

Mary remained a virgin throughout her life (Perpetual Virginity) (In 649 AD, Pope Martin I emphasized that Mary's perpetual virginity was threefold, meaning before, during, and after the birth of Christ. )

Mary was taken up into heaven body and soul (Assumption) 1950

Q. Sister, how did Mary keep her virginity DURING birth?

A. Let me tell you more about my family!

The Pope is thought of as God’s “spokesperson” here on Earth. The first Pope, Peter, was one of Jesus’ disciples and was chosen by Jesus to continue his work.

[quote] The Pope is thought of as God’s “spokesperson” here on Earth. The first Pope, Peter, was one of Jesus’ disciples and was chosen by Jesus to continue his work.

You're talking about all that as if it were historical fact. It is not.

R277, it’s like the Marvel universe. Certain things are, well, canon.

I've seen pics of the Cardinals and all of them are so deeply unattractive. Is it impossible to find a lovely, slender, attractive Pope?

Am I reaching for the stars here? I don't think so.

France seems to have done well with their past few Presidents - and we have French-Canadian Trudeau. I think we need a Frenchie here.

R277 God will get you for that.

I will deny that I wrote this post!

I think there’s going to be a big push for an African Pope, and it’s going to be a disaster.

R274. What’s your issue? These are all reasonable accomodations for the supposition that the Mother of God had to be god-like herself—in her actions and deeds. You don’t have to take it literally to be a good Catholic, fyi.

anyone who is 88 is on tgexway out

The idea behind the Catholic devotion to Mary is that she was a humble woman who was chosen by God for a special role. And she fully accepted God’s plan for her life, even if she didn’t fully understand it or found it difficult. She’s supposed to serve as a role model for everyone else on how to live.

LOL at R284

You Catholics are WEIRD - and in a cult. And you don't seem to be any the wiser. Listen to yourselves - my God. Replace Jesus or Mary with another name and it would sound ridiculous.

MARY R284!

[quote] You Catholics are WEIRD - and in a cult.

That’s why it’s better to be a Protestant.

R288, it's better to be nothing because that means you're not an idiot.

You're right, r288, those Southern Baptists are so charming, disarming and gentle.

We Catholics are not required to take it all literally, unlike you Baptist lemmings.

Catholics don’t take every word of the Scriptures literally, which is a better approach than the Protestants.

No - you write your own weird theories and theses behind it - and then submit it to the masses as doctrine. Don't pretend that's any better than a literal interpretation.

At least Protestants read the Bible.

Neither are good - it's both fantasy - but you Catholics take it to another level.

That's what's charming about Catholicism. It's not the literal word of God in the Bible that matters, it's all of the customs, beliefs, and lore associated with the Church. It's kind of like the difference between a common law country, like the US or UK, and one based on civil law. Yes, Catholicism is filled with silly superstitions and practices. So what. The problem with it is the sexist, closed hierarchy that's enabled abusers. The actual beliefs are certainly no worse than most world religions.

[quote] At least Protestants read the Bible.

What good is contained in the Bible? It's just a collection of obscure, contradictory, and ultimately, boring stories.

[quote] At least Protestants read the Bible.

Like that's a good thing, R293? The only rational and intelligent view of any of this is to believe none of it.

[quote] That's what's charming about Catholicism.

There's nothing charming about Catholicism, R294. Ask any ex-Catholic.

R295 - well, I would think anyone at least a bit serious about their own religion would want to read the main text that it derives from. Protestants at least have that going for them.

Instead Catholics have some hierarchy who seems to be able to interpret the word better than everyone else - and just take their word for it.

Hell, they wouldn't even give a service in the native language until the 1960s. Who DOES that? Nobody was fluent in Latin and couldn't follow most of it - just repeat and stand and kneel and do the ceremony.

Catholics are sheep - oh, they say I need to do it this way, and not eat fish on Friday, and I have to confess everything to this man every week, and on and on and on. No, it doesn't say any of that in the Bible - but they wouldn't know that because they don't read it.

Catholics have their many Saints they can look to as examples of how to live a proper life or seek solutions to difficult problems. Not everything has to come directly from the Bible.

[quote]Catholics don’t take every word of the Scriptures literally, which is a better approach than the Protestants.

Catholics take nothing in the scriptures literally except for "Peter, thou art a rock, and upon that rock I will build my church." Protestants take everything in the scriptures literally except the above passage.

Why read the Bible at all when there's George Eliot and Dostoevsky and Proust and Tolstoy and Mann and Joyce and thousands of writers who wrote books that are worth one's time? Christopher Hitchens said there was more morality in George Eliot than anything in the Bible. Enough with the fucking Bible already.

R300 - very true. And actually the Bible is really poorly written. It needs an editor. It's confusing - the dates don't make sense - the morality is questionable. The apostles contradict each other.

Put this in front of anyone else and change the name of it - and every Christian would be like...what the fuck is this shit?

There are a few nice stories - but it's really a bad mix-up of genealogy, weak history, battles, and tribal myths. It's a hot mess.

George Eliot read the Bible. More than once…could quote chapter and verse.

R298 - and who invented the saints? Wasn't God. That was just a way of making the religion more polytheistic to appeal to the ancient people who were used to having many gods.

Oh - he's the saint of X. Really? He's the god of X - which is what old mythology had.

The shit you guys believe in - and worst, you just state stuff like it's a fact.

Hmmmm.....we need updates or a death from Popey which will hopefully kill this dreary discussion on Christian Doctrine which has irritatingly taken over this thread.

It’s no different from a Hall of Fame, or a Lifetime Achievement. Attributes to strive for —goals. Not hard to understand…you non-Catholics are way too literal.

P.S. the protestants have ssints, too!

For R302:

"A devout evangelical Christian in her youth, Eliot gave up her faith due to her studies in science and in the German “higher criticism” of the Bible, which examined it as a historical rather than a sacred text."

R303, nobody “invented” the saints. They are real people who achieved holiness through living good lives, helping others, devotion to God, or overcoming serious obstacles. Some of them have been found to have incorrupt bodies hundreds of years after they died. How would you explain that?

R307, you write with the credulous sincerity of a believer--is that a fair assumption?

Just like I said R306. She read it more than once, chapter & verse.

And then rejected it, R309.

[quote] Why read the Bible at all when there's George Eliot and Dostoevsky and Proust and Tolstoy and Mann and Joyce and thousands of writers who wrote books that are worth one's time?

I'm the lapsed Catholic at r294, and I have no interest in reading the bible. However, many of the authors you listed there did, and Christianity informed their work. Reading the bible helps you better appreciate them.

They should let him die naturally.

R311, you don't have to have read the Bible to enjoy or appreciate or understand those writers, and I would hardly say that Christianity informed the work of Joyce, for instance, except as a belief system to reject.

R310 and, you missed the point entirely….

There's no point missed, R314. The fact that Eliot had such a thorough knowledge of the Bible and then rejected it says everything about her intellectual prowess and critical acumen.

Can we get back to ME?!?!?!

The next Pope is not going to be from fucking Tgexway. You can bet your savings on that.

I think the next Pope will be a "moderate" Italian who in reality will be weak and let the conservatives do what they want.

R307 - but PEOPLE here on Earth decided they were saints - performed unsubstantiated miracles - and elevated them up as intervenes with God.

You think God knows that? Did they call God and was like - hey we got some good ones here....mmmhmm...yeah European as always....mmmhmmm....we just thought they could work on your behalf since you're so busy and all? Oh yeah - sure, we can find more helpers! Oh no problem - it's our pleasure!

Ridiculous. It was just a way to create lesser gods for people used to polytheism. And with local ones to tell people - hey, just do and say EVERYTHING we say and who knows...after you're dead - you may be a SAINT! Sounds good, doesn't it? Now remember - you just have to do everything we say. A horrible death would help, but it's not necessary. And you need to do some miracles...yes miracles... don't worry, you'll figure it out.

bible is a work of fiction

A fourth-rate work of fiction.

When almost every life was nasty brutish and short, (to quote Hobbes), religions provided comfort and hope. " Yeah, your life is shitty now, but just wait until later". If it's a religion without an afterlife, the basis was usually a belief that the people practicing it were special - "chosen" - and therefore, just a little bit superior to everyone else around. But when religions stick around for millennia, they accrete a certain amount of wisdom from human lived experience, and that is usually encoded in their scriptures. The problem is in sifting through all the verbiage and frankly, the garbage, to find those tiny nuggets of useful wisdom.

When do people need or want religion? At deaths. At weddings. At births. During times of extreme pain or suffering, either personal or societal. That's pretty much it.

Ritualistic behavior seems encoded in humans as well. Birds do special dances to attract mates. Whales sing. So maybe that part of us is more ancient even then our species. Religions don't have a monopoly on it (only look at sports) - but they certainly exploit it to the max.

Catholics are no better nor any worse than other religions in these aspects.

To get back to the current Pope, I think it's interesting that many of his staunchest opponents are identified with the right wing in various countries. There are lots of people who seem to believe that societal control is the main purpose of religion, rather than self-improvement and improving the lot of people around us. I guess that's an ongoing battle and the election of the next pope will not end it. That element of societal control is certainly part of the emphasis on sexual purity in most religions. Why? Because sex is one of our strongest surviving primal instincts. Only eating, sleeping, and eliminating are stronger than sex, and those are not controllable by any religious edict.

Now do Islam. Bet you won't.

Look. the Old testament was important for reasons other than religion. I have spent a great deal of time as a student reading and analyzing ancient Greek Mythology, Nordic, Hindu, Sumerians, Thracians, Various African countries and regions, Egyptian, etc., etc., etc. It seems every ethnic group or nationality or tribe, has their own lore. I place the Old Testament in that category. And it incorporates myth and lore with real historic events. Real people sometimes. it was a way to explain or acknowledge things they didn't understand. It was also a means to control various subsets of the population. In Ancient Rome in Egypt, priest and augurs controlled a lot. And every civilization had rituals and superstitions, often rooted in fact. The dietary prescriptions described in the Old Testament were actually necessary for hygiene and to prevent food poisoning. Whatever. I like the Bible as literature.

This guy wants to be declared the next Pope to add to his titles and assets. He’ll want to get his tiny hands into the Vatican bank.

Don't give him any ideas, R325.

We joke but I would bet anything that there are extreme right, Ultra conservative elements internationally, that intend to influence the choice of Pope. There are factions internally and those factions those Cardinals have their supporters out here. Let us say you are a Cardinal from Poland. Let us say that as Cardinal you know some very wealthy, very influential people. Extreme Conservatives. If they can pull strings and help you get support they will.

R324 Do you believe that eating a cheeseburger will give you food poisoning?

R293 Many Protestants believe in the rapture. Is the rapture in the Christian bible?

The rapture is in all bible versions AFAIK, but interpreted differently due to subjects' manipulative ends

The rapture is NOT in ANY Bible. It stems from a vision that Scottish girl had in the 1830s and was promoted by a preacher named John Darby and a man called Scofield. It's completely fabricated - and if Poisoned Dragon is to be believed, so is the vast majority of the Bible - so this is a fabrication upon a fabrication.

It was not any part of Christian theology prior to 1830 - whether Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Calvinist, Baptist. It simply was not a belief that was supported by tradition or close reading of Biblical texts.

[quote]Many Protestants believe in the rapture. Is the rapture in the Christian bible?

1 Thessalonians 4:17

After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Uh, er, it's ALL a fabrication. It's all folk tales and myths like Zeus and Thor.

[QUOTE]The rapture is NOT in ANY Bible.

So "Revelations" was never an issue? How did it get to be a book in the bible?

Try reading my link . But, A. the word "Rapture" in the context used in these myths is never used in Revelations (Apocalypse) or any other book of the Bible. Secondly, the letter of Paul to the Thessalonians is a letter to Christians who were being persecuted and in fear for their lives. He's writing them a comforting thought IN THE PRESENT of the time which was maybe 100 AD. Saying, "Don't worry, some of your friends have already been killed and if you are also killed you'll be swept up into the clouds and you'll see God and your friends". It's not saying that some time in the far far future, past the year 2025, a beam of light will suck you off the face of the earth and bring you to Heaven.

The pope will live forever in my head for this photo. Trump's usual ten bucks fake smirk and poor old Vairst Letty, trying so hard not to sweat like a whore in church...

The catholic church is all based on fear - original sin, confession, baptism, purgatory - all made up shit to keep people in line.

How any of you take ease in these beliefs - and btw - if you're gay, they HATE you - then you're an idiot.

The Pope does look disgruntled as hell there, R336.

[quote] We joke but I would bet anything that there are extreme right, Ultra conservative elements internationally, that intend to influence the choice of Pope.

Yup, as I said upthread, JD Vance, Ross Douthat-columnist of the NY Times, are just a couple off the top of my pointy head that hate Pope Francis.

Does anybody doubt those two, and other right-wing wealthy Roman Catholics, are already rallying and in contact with politically and socially conservative Cardinals about where and how many votes there are now for a new regressive, super-conservative Pope?

I don't.

And watch for that big-mouth, now-it-all Vance, during a conclave publicly saying the Cardinals should reject a Pope that was aligned with Francis.

^know-it-all

Even though I am a Catholic, r332 reminds me that the Bible sometimes seems to be recording close encounters of the third kind.

Sure beats the Book of Mormon

Melania looks like she is marrying Beetlejuice @ R436.

R341, for decades now I have had this "theory While Drunk" that it really was "close encounters of the third kind" or even fourth kind if there is such a thing. The Bible as well as other mythology systems focus so intently on the heavens, and all this shit about ascensions and rising and fiery chariots etc. gives one pause. Did our creators drop us off here as some grand experiment? And if you look at ancient art and sculpture and you see these statues and other depictions of "gods with humanish bodies and animal heads, or you read about how Zeus came down in the shape of a swan and impregnated Leda, or WTF ever it is all some kind of reference point to some vague presence "up there." In Greek Mythology, for example gods and goddesses were always interfering with humans in some way or other.

R337 - yep - all fear - meanwhile, decades of cover-up, payouts, moving credibly suspected child molesting priests to other countries, destroying evidence, etc. in what is the largest sexual abuse rackets ever documented.

Hundreds of thousands of cases of child sex abuse - and the church had DECADES to fix it and only did it VERY reluctantly.

Everyone knew. From the bottom to the very top. They were embarrassed into finally dealing with it - but they didn't do much for such a long time. "We deal with this stuff internally".

So very few priests ever went to jail. Or bishops or higher-ups who covered it up. It's very indicting of the Catholic church and their policies - just keep the money rolling in at whatever costs.

It's a homophobic, anti-semetic, anti-woman organization of puffed up men looking to control others. The fact that ANY of you support this racket is really fucked up and disturbing.

For R344

R344 - you're thinking too much about it. They started at the stars a lot at night because - well, what else was there for entertainment. It's also unreachable - so it's mysterious and mystical too. What ARE those lights up there? Why do they twinkle? What was that shooting star, etc....

It makes perfect sense that we made the heavens the home of mythologies and gods. And - that same sky can give you life (sun, rain) or extreme destruction for no discernible reason - e.g. Gods must be angry.

It's rather obvious that this is how religion and myths would evolve and that stars and the sky would play a huge role in it.

And Christianity as a follow-up

R345, the superficial reductionist bullshit that passes for history fails to credit Henry VIII for cleaning house. The abbeys and monasteries, were corrupt as hell. The Church was raking the wealth in and Popes had armies. The Catholic Church hated him because he broke from the Church, but it was bigger than just Ann Boleyn.. It was a long time coming. Henry VIII was considered one of the leaders of the Reformation right up there with Martin Luther.

I forgot to talk about Henry II and his struggles with the Church. When he had Thomas Beckett killed it began with a basic argument over who was going to prosecute corrupt Priests. This is important because it seems to be hardwired into the thinking of the Catholic leaders over many generations: The Church held that if a monk or a priest or Cardinal or bishop, etc. was committing a crime, it was up to the Church to discipline them, not the civil courts. They were immune from prosecution by the state. The attitude that insisted this power fell to the Church, not the state. The state could not prosecute priests.

Henry VIII--he was one of the good guys!

Yes R349. Because Henry was such a great moral philosopher. He cared about a wannabe-French cunt expelling a live, male fetus. That is all. Everything else is reductive.

If the Aragonese queen had deliveted a surviving male heir, King Charles III would be in St. Peter’s as we speak…praying for Francis.

R350 - that line of thinking existed well into the 21st century. "We police our own" - which is why hardly any priests served any jail time.

Hell - it's why the Vatican exists as a separate political state with it's own banking. All secretive. Nothing is public.

It's STILL a really corrupt institution. What other religion has its own 'country' and banking?

The Vatican bank pushes its money around from country to country this way from one entity to another. If you think ANY of this is corruption-free, you're a fool.

They've been caught money laundering in at least 3 countries. Does anything happen to them? NOPE. They launder drug money and crime money all the time.

Hey I'm not defending the Church. I am aware of the banking corruption, and the veil that protects priests from prosecution. I just wanted to share historical context. And no one ever suggested Henry VIII was a paragon of virtue. But he did fight the Church and started doing it long before Anne Boleyn.

He fought the church to establish his own. LOL.

Henry VIII fought the church fore his own interests. He didn't care all that much about corruption in the church until he wanted a divorce. Then it got personal. Kind of like the Donald Dump of his time in that respect.

R354 - nobody's criticizing you - I was just commenting about their policy of taking take of themselves centuries ago is still very much present today. The same level of corruption - massive.

Just saying things haven't changed. And yet people just allow them to get away with it - which is disgusting.

The blind eye we turn toward any religion is gross.

And then they have the nerve to condemn gays and lesbians.

anyone ever read the bishop accountability page? It's unbelievable AND it's provided by the church itself. Not some organization trying to tear it down as they would claim. So you can only imagine what's been left out. I don't believe there was a diocese that wasn't hurt by the boy fuckers.

I wasn't expecting a thread about the Pope's health to turn into an Ian Paisley tribute act.

Well, R359, what do you expect us to do in the meantime? The damn guy just won't die, in spite of OP's tgexway out.

R359 too many Pisspailers on DL.

Francis has appointed 80% of the eligible cardinal electors but for some reason most of the leading candidates to succeed him appear to be right-wingers. The right have been manoeuvering and awaiting this opportunity. If they're smart, they'll all pile in behind an African candidate.

I suspect the meetings Francis has been having this week are to prepare for a resignation in the event he survives this crisis.

Anyone hoping for someone to continue Francis' liberal leanings might have to pin their hopes on Secretary of State Pietro Parolin.

Dark horse: the wonderfully named Pierbattista Pizzaballa, patriarch of Jerusalem, might be the outsider wild card who plays a role similar to that of Cardinal Benitez in 'Conclave' (without being intersex so far as I know).

I can just hear the cries of DEI in the U.S. if the cardinals elect the first African pope.

This may be a crazy question, but will the political shifts rightward in the U.S. and other countries, including embraces of racism and xenophobia, compel the CoC to choose a pope who is more progressive and likely to take a proactive approach about the dangers of creeping (or leaping) to the right.

Just because Francis appointed 80% of the cardinal electors doesn't mean they all agreed with him.

R363 You're falling into the trap of believing that the conclave will be paying most of their attention to events in the US. The church's focus will be much more on: a) the continuing evangelisation of the global south where most Catholics live (especially competing with the rise of evangelical Protestantism in eg Brazil) and b) trying to somehow stop the church collapsing in Europe.

One of the significant factors in Francis' election was that he was from the developing world.

[quote] One of the significant factors in Francis' election was that he was from the developing world.

Now that that box has been checked off, they can return to traditional choices.

are there any hot ones?

Argentina is not "the developing world," any more than the US is.

Idiota estadounidense ignorante.

It sure isn't, R368. It stoppoed developing many decades ago!

[quote]Dark horse: the wonderfully named Pierbattista Pizzaballa

He's got my vote!

Is he hung, R370?

R370 Nope. They’re not picking a Franciscan to succeed a Jesuit.

ROME and LONDON -- Pope Francis suffered two episodes of "acute respiratory failure" on Monday, the Vatican said.

The episodes were caused by a "significant accumulation of endobronchial mucus and consequent bronchospasm," the Vatican's press office said in a brief statement.

Two bronchoscopies were performed on the pontiff, with "the need to aspirate abundant secretions." Non-invasive mechanical ventilation was resumed on Francis and he continues to be "alert, oriented and cooperative," the Vatican said.

His prognosis "remains reserved," the Vatican said.

especially not after what his half-brother Pierluigi Pizzaparti got caught doing R372.

Why is he fighting so hard if he's so positive about what comes next?

Yeah. These diehard Christians should be thrilled by any mortal danger. But they are not.

^lol

Reminds me of this, R375:

You know the crazy thing about that picture r378? Of all the popes, I saw Pope Benedict twice. One was when they had him laid out at St. Peters when he died, which I posted upthread, and the first time was that day from your photo when he visited NYC. I have that exact same footage from the day of your picture on an old phone somewhere. How random.

R201 here. Poor Francis. This is end stage lung disease. The clearing out of the mucus is painful to watch. I can't even imagine how it feels.

He is not with it enough to be making his health decisions right now. Come on. It's not his fear of death or anything of his choice keeping him alive right now, so I don't think that's the right discussion. It's others that don't want him to die and likely for political (as in church politics) reasons. This Pope was much more compassionate compared to some of the previous popes and there's going to be a huge battle over what comes next. In a world of Trump, I'm hoping for an outspoken voice for compassion, but I fear there will be a push to get someone that aligns with Trump and Putin's world view. I can just imagine the pressure Russia and others will try to assert in whatever ways they can on the upcoming choice.

And I don't believe a word about him being "fully alert" or whatever. I've been with people going through these things and they were not in their right mind. That's Church propaganda.

He definitely loved getting his face in some rough trade's feet. I think he might miss that most of all.

Catholics are no different than Scientologists. It’s a cult. They tell all their secrets to some perv in a robe and actually believe that the Eucharist and wine magically turns into real blood and flesh and they feast on it after saying a holy spell and praying. They’re essentially cannibals.

[quote]R331/menluvinguy: It's completely fabricated - and if Poisoned Dragon is to be believed, so is the vast majority of the Bible - so this is a fabrication upon a fabrication.

I'm shocked. Which tiny minority of the bible do I think 𝑖𝑠𝑛'𝑡 a fabrication? ;)

[quote]R334: So "Revelations" was never an issue? How did it get to be a book in the bible?

Ugh, 'Revelations.'

It's not a book in the bible. What you're thinking of is The Apocalypse of John, sometimes called 'The Revelation (singular) of Jesus Christ.' And there's no 'Rapture' in it.

Passages in the Epistles thought to refer to the Rapture are really about a different event altogether, the Parousia.

Wrong. Catholics have the choice to accept or reject, as their conscience dictates….I could get fucked bareback with 20 loads, drop dead on the sidewalk outside St. Patrick’s…with a priest giving me side-eye, and I would still by welcomed by Peter into the Kingdom of Heaven..

Just say a good Act of Contrition!!!!

He’s our new Generalissimo Francisco Franco.

[quote] Pope Francis suffered two episodes of "acute respiratory failure" on Monday, the Vatican said.

Pope Francis will probably not take as long as Jimmy Carter, but he’s doing it more dramatically.

[quote]That’s why it’s better to be a Protestant.

At least priest have to have SOME kind of education, some kind of learning instead of just being any random gapped toothed yokel who picked up preaching after he heard god talking to him at the bottom of a moonshine barrel.

Is he off the tgexway yet?

[quote] At least priest have to have SOME kind of education, some kind of learning instead of just being any random gapped toothed yokel who picked up preaching after he heard god talking to him at the bottom of a moonshine barrel.

That’s an important point, that being called doesn’t always include a burning bush.

Cardinals are Ph.D level…not B.S. level from SMU or Liberty U.

Pope Francis is a Jesuit.

"How does a Jesuit become a Jesuit?

After entering the Society, men pursue a decade-long course of studies and spiritual formation before being ordained to the priesthood. Many also earn advanced degrees in a wide variety of academic disciplines. The Georgetown Jesuit community has thus been home to actors, astronomers, poets, politicians, playwrights, physicians, lawyers, sculptors, painters and professors of every field. Most but not all Jesuits serve as priests. There are also Jesuit brothers, several of whom live and work here at Georgetown."

- Georgetown University

R390 - most protestant ministers go to seminary and have a Masters of Divinity or higher. Don't act like only Catholics have seminaries. Far from it.

As far as the store-front congregations with the snake healers and such - well, I'm not going to argue with you there.

Those self-ordained ones are menaces - why anyone would follow them is beyond me.

But that's a small percentage - so most Protestant ministers are going to have as much or potentially more schooling on religion and Divinity than a Catholic priest - certainly a much broader education.

Jesuits are Men for Others..

R395 Bless her heart, for thinking any final degree from a Southern seminary or Bible “college” is the equivalent to a post-inferissi degree from a Pontificial univeresity. Oh my sides!

post-*grad

The African cardinals are more likely to be conservative than the Europeans or Americans.

[QUOTE]You're falling into the trap of believing that the conclave will be paying most of their attention to events in the US

I fell into the trap of not naming enough nation states for your satisfaction. So here I go correcting about Christian/Catholic power brokers that go on to nail and take.

The U.S. (of course) Though large, didn’t you know about other countries deriding humanity that a conclave might cast its eyes to?

Germany, Italy, Argentina, El Salvador, Panama, Guatemala, and even poor, poor Canada are all coming up soon on the right wing landscape, right? Brazil is back and forth.

Concerns of Europe should concern and confine its own hypocrisy and intimations to his Platonic Caveman persona and just get on with its life.

To make up for his unjust Oscar loss, I propose:

POPE TIMOTAY THE 1ST!!!!!

R397 - there are certainly different levels of education for a seminary - and yes, there are some bottom ones. Harvard, Yale, Northwestern - a lot of top schools have Divinity Masters and PhD programs and seminaries.

You're showing YOUR ignorance. And Pontifical degrees have such narrow focus - and only Catholic teachings and viewpoints. They're not accredited institutions. The Pontifical Urbaniana University has 100% acceptance rate - not exactly weeding out the dumb-dumbs.

Silly Catholic boy - they aren't going to accept your gay ass no matter how many Hail Marys you recite. Fool.

What is he doing on the taxiway?

Hmmm I was thinking he was really close to the end, but he’s hanging on.

I've called and offered my expertise if they need it.

R402 Self-satisfied Protestants are always good for a laugh! Thank you. You would not last a week with the Jesuits.

R406 - you're the asshole going on assuming non-Catholics don't have any religious education and holding up the pontifical universities (which are a joke) as some Harvard on steroids institution.

Typical Catholic - doesn't know shit about the world, the Bible or anything else except what his churchie priests tell him after they're done fucking the alter boys.

PS - I would not WANT a week with the Jesuits. Just because some of them were smart and did other things doesn't mean they weren't still in a massive cult.

And to be clear - I'm not religious - so I'm not defending protestants - just pointing out your bias and your narrow viewpoint.

[quote]R368: Argentina is not "the developing world," any more than the US is.

*AHEM*

See the first map chart on this article:

Argentina is classified as develop𝑖𝑛𝑔; the US as develop𝑒𝑑.

[quote]R400: Concerns of Europe should concern and confine its own hypocrisy and intimations to his Platonic Caveman persona and just get on with its life.

PlatonicCaveman and ConcernedEuropean are not even remotely the same person.

R124, how are you doing now? Have you gotten a bit better or improved?

I’m so sorry you’re experiencing this, R124. I hope you’re here a while longer with the rest of us who are eventually on our way out, too.

He is close to the end. At most 2-3 weeks if that. Now can I introduce a topic closer to the point of this thread? Catholics have rules about end of life care. Catholic hospitals have to do everything they can to prolong life. But they are not obliged to used unreasonable artificial measures. It's a dilemma because their rules seem to contradict themselves. Pope Francis's lung and a half has stopped working. The broncoscopy and the presence of mucus and blockages are telling us that. He is on a ventilator. He is oxygen dependent. Now they can keep this up indefinitely. Prolong his life artificially for maybe a month like this. But he is slowly drowning. and a mercy would be to put him on a morphine drip, and take him off the ventilator, and just leave him with an oxygen feed. If they do that, he will slip away in a matter of hours. Right now he is probably semi conscious, his focus is singularly on trying to breath. He is fighting for breath. As I imagine the scene he probably has two or three people there praying with him. He must have left directives about prolonging his life through artificial means.

R411, if it weren’t the pope, this would have been over last week, certainly over the weekend when he aspirated. I think you’re right, they are prolonging this, and I would bet he’s suffering. I can’t even imagine what it’s like to not be able to breathe.

If you listen to the "reports," they are making it sound like he is sitting in a chair writing Sunday's sermon.

R413, highly doubtful. That may have been true as recently as a week ago, but probably not for the past 3-4 days for sure. His lungs have lost elasticity, and they're just not working very well. He probably has less than 30% lung function.

It's just so baffling to me - why is it so impossible to get these options together. You've had years and years to prepare. It's just so confusing.

Why is nobody r-e-a-d-y?

anyone got a ciggie I can bum?

Has his sister Arlene commented yet?

R407 dead, sweet boy—may your ignorance be a blessing, now and forever.

R411 Catholic hospitals have to do everything they can to prolong life.

100% WRONG. The ignorance around here is gobsmacking. Everlasting.

R418 - quit while you're ahead - you showed your ass and your ignorance on this thread over and over.

I suspect you're some single, drunk, pot-bellied older Irish Catholic who's white-knucking it before he can start pouring his whisky at 7pm. Get help.

R413 a homily, not a sermon.

Depending on their denominations, many high-level Protestant preachers have received a lot of training in theology. Those studies are likely to be extremely focused on the Bible, and in most cases, will treat the Bible as the inerrant word of God. What does that mean? It means that the chronology of the creation of the world will likely not be questioned, all scientific research to the contrary, huge discrepancies will not be explored (such as the fact that there are two completely incompatible creation stores in the first few chapters of Genesis), information about how the books of the New testament (and indeed the Jewish bible) were selected over centuries of competing narratives, and so forth. Training in the original languages of the Bible will be minimal, and probably only on a "see-a-word, look it up level". Comparative religions will not be explored, nor the many ways in which Judaism and later Christianity borrowed elements from older religions and incorporated them.

Catholic theology training would normally include more language study. Latin for sure. Latin is not a language of the Bible, but the oldest extent sources are actually not in Greek or Hebrew, but Latin. (Jews typically buried scrolls when they were too old to use). Protestant scholars tend to dismiss the Vulgate, and other original Latin translation of the Bible, but some of these longer fragments and certainly the oldest complete Vulgate versions are older than any other versions that still exist in other languages. There are just a few tiny fragments of old Hebrew and Greek versions that predate 1000 CE. A Latin version, translated by someone who had fluency in both Hebrew and Greek, is a good check on the accuracy of other versions.

High level Catholic scholars, priests, archbishops, cardinals, and popes, are still expected to have a certain level of fluency in Latin.

Greek Orthodox would favor Greek translations (the Septaguint for instance), but even so, the Vulgate was the primary version for the entire church prior to the schism of 1054 CE.

Since the Catholic church recognizes tradition as nearly co-equal to the Bible, there is theological training in the meaning of vestments, certain ritual prayers, signs, chants, etc. Many of these were in turn modeled on, or even borrowed from Judaism. The Orthodox churches and Judaism are also likewise heavily invested in traditions as essential elements of the religions.

It's my opinion that ministers of any religion succeed best when they are able to condense lengthy stories and texts into succinct and clear messages for self-improvement. Much of that could equally be termed common sense or some deep psychological insights into human nature. When they succeed less well, it's usually because they get lost in the weeds of trying to make sense of tiny phrases of words that were written 2000+ years ago in a far different context than we can even imagine. But lots of brilliant speakers and preachers are also capable of leading people far away from good and wholesome theological insights. Anti-semitism in Christianity had its origin in a few small phrases from the Gospels that were taken as an excuse to torture members of another religion for millennia.

[quote] So here I go correcting about Christian/Catholic power brokers that go on to nail and take.

Did AI write this?

I studied Latin for four years, Studied Church History (sanitized of course) for two semesters, and took two years to study the liturgy, and the I dropped out of the seminary. I ran away screaming.

Thanks for sharing—to no end.

[quote]R422/menluvinguy: Latin is not a language of the Bible, but the oldest extent sources are actually not in Greek or Hebrew, but Latin.

Are you only counting more or less complete manuscripts (i.e. the whole New Testament), or are you including fragments? Either way, AFAIK, the oldest of these would be Greek.

[quote]Protestant scholars tend to dismiss the Vulgate, and other original Latin translation of the Bible, but some of these longer fragments and certainly the oldest complete Vulgate versions are older than any other versions that still exist in other languages.

Hmm? How about the Greek papyri fragments, such as Rylands P52 (probable 3rd century) and the great uncials, like Vaticanus, Sinaiticus, and Alexandrinus, all in Greek, from the 4th century (same approximate dates as Latin codices Bobiensis, Palatinus, and Vercellensis)? Still, the Greek are older.

[quote]There are just a few tiny fragments of old Hebrew and Greek versions that predate 1000 CE.

𝐻𝑚𝑚?

[quote]A Latin version, translated by someone who had fluency in both Hebrew and Greek, is a good check on the accuracy of other versions.

I have not generally found that to be the case, nor can the 'accuracy' of a manuscript be meaningfully validated by comparison of the text in Hebrew, Syriac, Armenian, Ge'ez, etc.. They're too late to be relevant. And no, that's not a Protestant opinion.

did you get any cock at the seminary?

And…here comes the dragon. Oy vey

I hope he passes away during Trump's speech. I want the news to break in and distract away from what promises to be a babbling nothing burger.

Is this a good time to mention that according to the Prophecies of St Malachy of Armagh, Francis is meant to be Petrus Romanus, the last Pope before the destruction of Rome and the end of the world?

^^^^ In other news, how about that Donald Trump, eh? I'm sure he's not going to do anything really crazy in the next few months.

Forgive me Donald Trump, for I have sinned.

The Old Testament is a collection of stories gleaned from oral histories.

Talmud doesn’t like oral.

R433 not just the Old Testament. That’s all religions texts.

Isn't anyone going to ask how I AM?

How many bowel movements has he had in the past 24 hrs?

Your Ash Wednesday update

r426 (Poisoned Dragon) , what I meant was that the Codex Amiatinus is the oldest COMPLETE bible. Meaning it has all the books and all the words from beginning to end, except for Baruch. All the uncials contain large portions of the old and new testaments. However, none are complete and most have later interpolations, in some cases 1000 years later.

They are copies of the Septaguint, which has a complicated history and reputation. Although it was translated and compiled by Jews in Alexandria from Hebrew to Greek, most Jews reject is as a bad translation of Hebrew. Jews continually recopied scrolls, Hebrew to Hebrew, but since the language was essentially dead as a spoken language, the possibility always existed that a copied word was not understood or mistaken for another.. Human scribes are fallible, so Jerome's translation is one way to see what the Hebrew sources looked like to him, 600 years before the oldest Hebrew Tanakhs we have as comparisons. That's what I meant as a "check".

Is he tgexway out yet?

His tgexway out feels like when I’m tgexway out for hours at JFK before finally taking off.

My tgexway stinks.

[quote]R439: what I meant was that the Codex Amiatinus is the oldest COMPLETE bible. .

The term 'complete' must be qualified. There is a sense in which it may be 'too complete,' in that it had accumulated various corruptions/interpolations which, by the 8th century, would have come to be expected by contemporary ecclesiastics in a 'proper' bible. Much the same problem was presented by the so-called 'Textus Receptus', the common collection of late cursive manuscripts of the 17th century; the number of words and sentences had grown considerably. Predictably, ecclesiastics presented with a 4th century text like Vaticanus and Sinaiticus were appalled by what to their eyes appeared to be omissions, although these texts merely lacked the interpolations to which they'd become accustomed.

Codex Amiatinus from the 8th century is too late to have my trust, completeness being insufficient to balance for lateness.

[quote]Although it was translated and compiled by Jews in Alexandria from Hebrew to Greek...

I am uncertain that 'Hebrew to Greek' is the way it actually went. What seems to have been more likely (to me) was that texts were composed in Greek at Alexandria, and when the Jews soured on Hellenistic Seleucid culture in the late 2nd Century BCE, there was a heavy push to render the Greek scriptures into Hebrew and to pretend that the Hebrew had been the earlier version (known as 'Septuagint Priority' or 'the Gmirkin Model'). But I would not expect you to accept this until you had researched it for yourself.

[quote]so Jerome's translation is one way to see what the Hebrew sources looked like to him, 600 years before the oldest Hebrew Tanakhs we have as comparisons.

I am uncertain that Codex Amiatinus is the best example of that, being some three hundred years too late. Amiatinus exhibits a lot of developed variations from older, more fragmentary Latin manuscripts. Furthermore, I don't believe that 𝐚) Jerome accurately represents what contemporary Hebrew texts were really like. A lot of polemic had developed between Jewish and Christian points of view - and even between Christian Greek and Latin points of view, and I would expect Jerome to offer a polemical reading. And...

𝐛) Jerome's manuscripts don't offer a particularly accurate snapshot of his own 4th century views. Catholic scribes continued to 'update' patristic writings as the views of the Church continued to evolve. The later the copy date of a manuscript, the more likely for it to have suffered editorial hands.

IMO, in assessing 'accuracy,' older manuscripts are more valuable, and even a fragment reflecting a variant reading can be more useful than lots of later, more complete bibles.

Do we have a tgexway update?

The gods will tgexway PoisoniousDragon soon.

^^^ I read it in the Codtgexway Dataloungicron.

Lent—day 2

The Lord will take him when the Lord wishes. Or so the religious believe. But if he were an old dog, the righteous, least selfish thing to do is just let the 88yo die.

Btw, who's taking bets on who's next?

Seriously r448. He's 88, just let him go already.

BTW, "tl;dr" was invented for Poisoned Dragon. JFC what a pompous, bloviating ass.

Is that the early Hebrew to Greek, or Greek to later Hebrew? Only your hairdresser knows for sure.

If his "clinical" condition is stable because he is on oxygen, then his days are numbered. They say he is getting motorized physical therapy. Which means they are exercising him and he probably has special equipment helping his circulation.

[quote] his days are numbered.

Yes, dear R451, we know. It hasn't been as soon as OP was gleefully hoping for, though, was it?

All our days are numbered.

Nobody gets out of here alive...

Being age 88, and given his medical condition, if he rebounds to any significant extent, it will be limited and not long-term.

The Pope needs to resign, and his medical personnel need to keep him comfortable and not resort to extraordinary measures of life support.

R455 If he was going to resign he would've done it by now. He's going to die in office likes virtually every other pope has done for the last 700 years (minus Benedict XVI). JPII lingered form months barely able to sign his name in the last year or two of his life. The real question is if Francis is going to die in the hospital or will they take him back to the Vatican.

The whole point of being vicar of Christ on earth is that you DON'T resign. I couldn't believe Miss Benedict Arnold did, as if to say, "Yes, I know I was personally chosen to represent God, but I don't want to anymore, so I'm retiring." What kind of bullshit is that? I thought the whole point of being God's ultimate servant is, like the Queen, that it's a job of service for life.

R456, IMO it seems like the Vatican ought to have the medical facilities to deal with this. Oxygen, ventilator, broncoscopy, and IVs, and a cardiac monitor.

No, r458. They just say a Novena.

Last year, Francis drastically overhauled his funeral plans on the assumption he will be the reigning pontiff when he dies. His funeral is going to be much more low key with far less pomp than we've seen in the past.

[quote] on the assumption he will be the reigning pontiff when he dies.

Of course he will be. Who else will be?

I dreamed he died last night.

Well, he didn't, R462.

What a bunch of ghouls.

It would be better if he resigned, to cement Benedict's precedent. No-one needs popes dragging on for years, kept barely alive by modern medicine, and unable to actually do the job. If you've ever read anything about the College of Cardinals you know they need to be watched like a hawk or they get up to all sorts of unspeakable things.

R464. That nuts. How would you expect anyone to know about the workings of The College of Cardinals —you think someone would actually write a book, or make a movie, about it?

R464 is, of course, a clueless idiot.

And so proud of it.

R466 Agreed.

R465

Re: resignation, I've always thought Francis feels the same way about it as Queen Elizabeth II did, about her uncle. The job is for life. Yes, people get old and have to slow down, but the papacy has functioned for long enough that they know how to deal with it. I hope Francis stays until the end. I worry that his successor will be a Trump-like shift to the hard right. As much as people here may dislike Francis he was a much needed change after Ratzing--er... Benedict.

R465 It's bizarre that you think the Vatican to be the one institution on the planet immune to investigative journalism. Research skills are your friend!

This book was a useful account of the last conclave.

Someone, anyone, please explain sarcasm and humor to CE? I just can’t anymore TIA

Did Fran tgexway yet?

There was a recent movie called Conclave. It was discussed on this site for months. It was nominated for several Oscars. It won an Oscar for adapted screenplay.

Get it now?

This is longer than the Judd's farewell tour.

R469, you're very dumb. R465 was mocking you.

R474 not very effectively but you guys must seek your little victories wherever you can find them ;)

It’s time to shit or get off the tgexway.

If he clings on much longer he could die on the twentieth anniversary of JP2's death.

They’re all laughing at you, CE.

Is CE promising for the Crazy Caveman?

Did Concerned European have a little, "choke fest?"

[quote]the College of Cardinals you know they need to be watched like a hawk or they get up to all sorts of unspeakable things.

I attended a wedding at St. Peter’s last year. The reception was at the Four Seasons. The two priest who conducted the wedding (the one young one seen there) attended the reception and were drinking so much. The bar was open and they kept ordering. They stayed later than I did (after midnight) and were so wasted by then. They were fun though. The one said it was his fourth wedding at the four seasons that year. They live the life for sure.

So yeah given that the Vatican is its own country, I am sure the cardinals get up to craziness when the cat’s away physically or mentally.

[quote]I am tgez way and the trzigh and the loaef. No one curgx to the Father except tkitim me.

R214, I am in the throes of the 2nd worst cold I have ever had, but can't just stay in bed and recover because I have to take care of Dad.

Reading your post just now made me cough up a lung and kill my back, but I soooooooo needed that.

De nada.

Papa Francesco does not want to end up like Francisco Franco, fodder for SNL.

No longer in imminent danger.

HA HA, OP!!!

No thanks, I don't need another angel at the moment.

[quote]No longer in imminent danger.

Ixnay on tgexway!

👏🏼

Speaks Latin AND pig latin

[quote]R422: Anti-semitism in Christianity had its origin in a few small phrases from the Gospels that were taken as an excuse to torture members of another religion for millennia.

Those "few small phrases" (not really a few, but woven through the entire NT) were written during the decades after the Jewish Wars, especially the Bar Kochba Revolt, and were informed by the Roman perspective on the conflicts, while all Jews were being banished from what had by that point been renamed 'Syria Palæstina.' It's important to remember that the NT was not written by Jews, but by Gentiles 𝑎𝑏𝑜𝑢𝑡 literary characters depicted as Jews.

Mary, Mother of God was the Jewish mother of all time.

She’s worshipped by Catholics second only to her Jewish son.

R490, we don’t know who wrote any part of the NT. Given the many allusions to Jewish scripture, some of the authors probably were Jews who had converted.

Please go start your own damn theology blog. Didn’t they teach you context, and how to read a room, back in school? It’s dreary to see so many threads dragged down by your pedantry.

Preach r494. He's a fucking wet blanked killjoy on every fucking thread. And weird AF.

R493, many of them. The Septuagint wasn't written for Gentiles. There were many Jewish communities in the Middle East and Northern Africa who did not speak Hebrew.

I think the pedantic cunt could be our own lezzie from on high, the one who says she's High Priestress of GobblyGook, ignore her, only a deranged lezzie would come to a gay guy gossip site. FF the bitch.

[quote]I think the pedantic cunt could be our own lezzie from on high, the one who says she's High Priestress of GobblyGook, ignore her, only a deranged lezzie would come to a gay guy gossip site. FF the bitch.

I don't know who you're talking about, but you sound nice...

[quote]R496: The Septuagint wasn't written for Gentiles.

Oh, but it was - the earliest version of the Septuagint was composed at Alexandria at the behest of Ptolemy II Philadelphus.

But after the tyranny of Seleucid ruler Antiochus IV, Jews began a rapid retreat from the use of Greek (as well as Hellenism in general), and began translating the Septuagint into Hebrew, with editorial changes. Jewish usage of the Septuagint was just a flash in the pan, relatively speaking.

[quote]There were many Jewish communities in the Middle East and Northern Africa who did not speak Hebrew.

Yes. They tended to speak what was native to those countries - usually Aramaic, as at Elephantine, Egypt, as well as throughout the Middle East, and in Ge'ez in Ethiopia.

^^Good lord do you need to get a life. Crazy.

“Spreading lies about a poster to encourage FF them by mob action is organized harassment, and a violation of DL terms and conditions.” Oh my!

Too Funny. Your sock puppet investigation results are all wrong.

Does he keep Excel spreadsheets? And the "sock" obsession. Jesus. Dude is cuckoo.

It's an anonymous forum for bullshit. It's not your social life. Get over it.

Septuagint Seleucid Txegway!

Is he still on the taxiway?

The Pope looks the child in Parthenope.

Just fucking die already, old brainwasher butt fucker still breathing air.

OMG - all these greyed-out posts - I thought my sight was going. Good riddance. Thanks, Mur!

[quote]OMG - all these greyed-out posts - I thought my sight was going. Good riddance. Thanks, Mur!

Grey-out posts are courtesy of your fellow F&F-ing those posts.

Muriel red-lines.

NOT TODAY GOD!

Will they freeze him in carbonite?

[quote]Last year, Francis drastically overhauled his funeral plans on the assumption he will be the reigning pontiff when he dies. His funeral is going to be much more low key with far less pomp than we've seen in the past.

That's disappointing; the Catholic Church - much like the British Royal Family - may fuck up a lot of things, but they do pomp & circumstance very well. And honestly, if there's anything the world needs now, it's a good long cry. I hope the Vatican goes all out when he's finally toes up.

Watched his brief appearance on the hospital balcony this morning and he appeared to be gasping for breath before they wheeled him back inside.

he looks pasty and ever so deflated. still plump but slightly deflated

I just learned yesterday about the Palmarian Catholic Church, a splinter group that has their own pope. The Palmarian Church claims to be the exclusive One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church founded by Jesus Christ. It claims that the Holy See, the institution of the Papacy and the headquarters of the Catholic Church was moved to El Palmar de Troya, in Spain, in 1978, due to the alleged apostasy of the Roman Catholic Church from the Catholic faith.

The Roman Catholic Church could just use the other Catholic church’s ready-made pope in a pinch.

Agree r512.

Humans invented rituals for a reason.

I grew up in a family environment where my parents engaged in both Tribal (Indigenous American) and Roman Catholic rituals.

Looking back, I appreciate that my parents lived by both of those things.

I'm not an engaged Roman Catholic but darned if they don't have pomp, circumstance and ritual down pat. I want all of it when Pope Francis dies.

Girl is knockin at heaven's door.

I don't see any grayed out lines, why is that?

Wow he's tough isn't he? Frail, but looking much better at r517 than I thought he would, for someone who was vented for several days not a few weeks ago.

He's is oxygen dependent, confined to a wheelchair. Breathing is an issue for him. I'm thinking it's a matter of a few months.

PD finally got shitcanned from DL? Hallelujah!

Here's your shitty pope and his filthy religion, and this is not even the Brazilian or Mexican etc inquisition.

Yes, yes, R522.

But what about excoriating Lincoln for being elected in a slave nation, or demanding that the UK be obliterated because of its colonialism? We're sure you follow your own campaign against your peculiar view of original sin to its logical conclusion until you're the only pristine, worthy thing left standing?

So are you as fat a lunatic as you appear to be, or just a tweener crank offering Wikipedia articles on things done centuries ago?

He should blare the song Not Dead Yet from the balcony of The Vatican.