Where Would You Move Outside of the US?

I'd go to Brazil.

Those countries aren’t going to give you a long term visa, especially homophobic ones like Italy.

If you study history, you’ll see the pattern. New residents arrive to fix up some houses — then they get kicked out and a local takes the nicely refurbished house for themselves.

I’m too old to go to the expense and effort to leave. I’m hoping to die before I have to see the very worst of it.

No. I would probably be murdered if people knew that I was from America at this point.

OP, the reason to take a step back before moving, especially if you’re young (late teens to mid twenties) is that there’s a huge possibility that our world is about to change DRAMATICALLY, in a way that it really won’t matter much where you live, because that dramatic change will take place in every single country in the world, in hopes that the world will soon run on one currency.

Puerto Vallarta has some really nice, affordable luxury condominiums with stunning views. I was recently there on vacation and thought it would be a really lovely place to go to flee from the Trumpian apocalypse upon us.

Eldergay here. I would need to move somewhere with excellent but affordable healthcare infrastructure accessible to expats. Medicare and its supplements are of no use in countries outside the US.

Thailand is my first choice. They have very clear protocols in place for expats in terms of getting a "retirement visa", establishing a bank account, ability to access healthcare services, etc.

Only thing keeping me here - for now - is a family member who needs my assistance.

I have no desire to leave the USA. I'm too old to adjust to another culture.

It's worth remembering that, for instance, Italy is led by a right-wing government (Giorgia Meloni *loves* Elon Musk) and Thailand is basically ruled by its military which bans parties it doesn't like. If you go to a different country you have to be able and willing to ignore the political scene. But don't forget that you might still be affected by that country's politics.

Hello OP, I am part of a gay couple that moved from NYC in 2021 to Italy. Covid and the riots in NYC after having lived there for close to thirty years was enough for us. NYC is NOT a place you want to grow old, no matter how much money you have.

Keep in mind wherever you move, you want things to feel familiar even though they are different. Now familiar is NOT the same as feeling the same. But the jolt is a major one when you move abroad, you will be seeking familiar things to anchor you. Somewhere like a Bangkok my be too much of a jump. Plus friends of mine were just there. They all got sick and said the daily smog, fog was a bit much after a while.

Italy is expecting a ton of Americans to come. That is the vibe. It's a lot of work to immigrate, but our quality of life is worth it. Those very inexpensive houses are available. You can buy place for $1 even. But just be aware it will be about 80k in renovations and months/possibly years worth of work. Friends going through reconstructions here are both well past the year mark going on two years. BUT you will have an amazing home tailored made for you. And if you chose Italy, coming from NYC, I would suggest somewhere more northern in Tuscany or higher, unless you are really planning to retire, retire to a much slower casual lifestyle. The Italian way of doing this can be a lot for someone born and raised the States. It's doable, but there are growing pains.

Panama used to be one of the answers to cheap, decent place to retire but I just read this.

I'd rather live in a city such as NYC that has a lot of services for the elderly such access-a-ride, meals on wheels, senior centers, many drs and hospitals than be out in the sticks with fewer options. I know quite a few elderly people who take access-a-ride everywhere and never take a bus or subway. And the ones with money take Uber.

I expect a lot of r12's free/reduced services to seniors to go the way of the Dodo Bird. MAGA will relish cutting social services in general -- especially to Blue States.

I am one of those definitely leaving the country. We are a gay couple in our 60s and we are moving to France this summer. The long-term visa application is complete and ready to submit, health insurance is paid for, and lodging is secured. We are moving out of our US home in early June to facilitate repairs/repainting before the house goes on the market in July. I had been thinking of a European phase of our lives for several years, but domestic politics last year made those dreams a reality.

I was an exchange student to France in HS, and have kept up with the language over the intervening decades (solid B2 level here). We will be 3km from one of the Top 5 hospitals in France, and I've already located medical specialists that we might need. The city where we are headed votes solidly left/center and the recent National Assembly runoff had Left vs Center for all of its races.

Yes, it will be tough to leave home, family and friends (and deal with a new bureaucracy in a foreign language). But we are ready for the new adventures that will come our way.

Congratulations R13 on your new life. It is an exciting time. Four years into my experience, it is interesting how, yes the United States will always be my home, but you become detached from it. As more time passes you do not feel like retiring, it becomes a burden. And especially as you get older, that flight, my god. It's not something you'll want to do more than once or twice a year.

R14 - flights to Europe from the US? That's only 7 hours - hardly a LONG flight. It's only 30 minutes longer than NY-LA.

The only way I'd leave the US is if I were a bona fide refugee because of political violence, in which case I'd just be happy to go wherever they'd take me. I'd prefer an English speaking country because that's the only language I'm fluent in.

R15, I’ve done it several, several times now. Of course there are longer flights. The flight is about 7.5 one way 8.5/9 the other. But all in all it somehow turns into a 16 hour day. There are always delays, even with direct flights. Jockeying through international airports is exhausting, customs lines, luggage, transportation to and fro. The older you get, it’s a lot to do. The recovery period, especially USA to Europe, takes longer.

R15, not everyone lives on the East Coast! A route I used to take a lot - LAX to London - is 10.5 hours.

Mexico. Gladly. They've got the best food and beer. New Zealand.

[quote]Four years into my experience, it is interesting how, yes the United States will always be my home, but you become detached from it. As more time passes you do not feel like re[turning][??], it becomes a burden.

I've had a couple more years living in Europe, but it has for a long time seemed more my home than the US did.

Certainly the US is where I was born and lived most of my life. It's no small part of what I am. But in many ways the US had not feel like home for years before I left, and today it seems a world apart (all politics aside.) It's not my home now in any but a past sense. I probably will never go back even to visit.

Home is where you make it? or Home is where you were made? Absolutely the dormer for me, which makes it easy to make home of a new place.

From my experience the immigrants who don't fit in and who don't make themselves at home in a new place are the ones who expect everything of their new home to fit the mold of the old. It doesn't.

R20, you are right, I meant "you don't feel like returning to it." I remember before I moved, I left NYC for a couple of months to go to Philly to get my Visa. NYC consulate is notoriously impossible. I remember at that time it was so hard for me to even leave NYC, and at that point I was still in the states. My last time there before moving, I remember sitting in a window at a hotel looking down and repeating to myself - there is nothing left for me here, there is nothing left for me here. It was the truth. In my heart it was just taking longer to sink in. It was just so hard to believe I was ready to move on from the place I had spent my entire adult life.

Now, IF I go back to NYC, it's such a weird feeling, another life, another world. And as soon as I land, the question comes up, why am I here? Why am I spending a $1000 for two days to have drinks with friends? And that feeling is beginning to take over all of my trips to the states. I visit my mom and my brother. But I go to their homes and I don't want to leave. I just want to spend time with them and call it wrap and get back to my home in Italy. If they were all here with me, I could see myself not returning to the states for many many years, if ever again.

I was in Mexico City this year, full of COVID expats and while it was a nice place to visit, they have a serious water shortage & I just get the feeling things go tits up very quickly in Mexico & if you're a gringo...things might not go so well for you.

While it's not exactly cheap & it has it's own problems, I have this fantasy about living in a small house in Ireland. Ireland is pretty small, so you can be on the other side of the country within hours and I some on some reality TV show that there was an effort to bring the internet to rural areas. Clearly there are some downsides, but I'm a bit of a loner anyway & I don't think it will bother me to be alone.

I have emigrated to 2 countries in my lifetime. The best piece of advice I can give if you're moving to a non-English speaking country - learn the language to at least a basic conversational level before you go. I can't stress this enough. Your success or failure will depend on this.

I'm too depressed about the Panama/Trump situation to discuss it. But I have my Panama residency card, and my Visa should be ready for me to pick up in the next two months or so. How was I to know the asshole was going to target the Canal while I was jumping through all these hoops back in November?

And I have no idea what to do with my beloved little dog when I leave. She's too old and infirm to take with me (15), but IMHO, too young and relatively healthy to kill. And hell, I can't even find someone I trust to watch her for the three weeks I'm going back to pick up my Visa. I had her in a kennel for 11 days the last time I went down there, and she was so traumatized, she was shaking when I picked her up and I practically had to housebreak her all over again. I just can't put her in another kennel, i.e., "pet spa" -- pet spa my ass!

Trump, that sorry motherfucker, had to fuck up my "golden years," when I had finally saved enough money to fix up my trailer here in FL, and buy a trailer to drag behind my truck to be a "snowbird." I have never been this bitter, angry, hateful, and horribly, horribly depressed in my entire life -- and that's saying something.

But I'm taking it one day at a time, trying not to dwell on things, and doing the best I can to prepare. Wish me luck.

r24, sorry, but your elderly dog deserves better...give it some thought.

I wrote a long reply to R25, but why bother?

Suffice it to say I'd like to see you walk a mile in my shoes.

Time spent travelling is universal. My husband's family is from rural Kansas. To get there is either 26 hours of driving, or a flight to ATL, then a flight to Wichita, then drive for 2 hours. The other option is to fly to Denver, and then change to a 10-seater prop plane and fly across Eastern CO and Western KS and then drive an hour. It's a 12+ hour travel day regardless.

Now I will be a 7-hour flight from IAD to CDG, then take a TGV train right from the Charles de Gaulle airport 45 minutes to my new city.

Any international arrivals hall in Europe is less harrowing than flying in a small prop plane in the winds of Western Kansas.

R27, there is no more than a three hour difference in time zones in the united states. So anywhere you travel, it might be long, but your biological clock isn't fucked up.

They do this very weird thing on international flights - no matter the time you are traveling: They will have a dinner service, lights down low, and then a few hours later, no matter the time a breakfast service. It really fucks you up. It makes sense when you are leaving at 8pm at night. But when you are leaving at 4pm in the afternoon, to have dinner at 6 pm and breakfast at midnight because it's 6am where you are landing, is crazy.

You arrive at the airport at 2pm for a 4pm flight on a Friday. You take off on a nine hour flight and do the whole weird dinner/breakfast shuffle. You get absolutely no sleep except maybe 45 mins at a clip, maybe 1.5 hours all together. When you land it's 9am there, it's Saturday, but because you didn't really sleep, in your mind it's still Friday. You go through customs and jockeying trying to get home. But it's day time and you keep pushing through. By the time you go to sleep at 9pm on Saturday it feels like you have been up since you left and you realize you've been basically awake for over 24 hours. By the next time you take a shower on Sunday, you realize you've had the same underwear on for two whole days.

^all I am saying is the older you get, the more taxing/daunting this becomes - and the less you’ll want to do it just to have the pleasure of going back to the United States. It becomes less and less worth it. The US is my home, but I’m enjoying my trips back less and they’re too much work and too expensive.

[quote] It really fucks you up.

Like mum and dad.

China. Beautiful clean cities with tech that way outpaces the US. It's amazing how long you could make 5000 USD last in a nice apartment. It's almost impossible to get a permanent visa though, even if you marry a Chinese citizen.

I’d go to Canada. Vancouver area, specifically. I think I watched too many episodes of the X-Files as a kid because I’ve always loved the rainy and gloomy atmosphere and all the forests they had there.

I’m too boring to go someplace further.

Nowhere. This is still the best place there is.

Greece

R34, have you been to you?

Your problems with climate control, oligarchy, and repression are not going to go away if you move out of the US. We live in a global economy.

It’s France. I lived there for a year in college. People are outraged : “ what ???? What about the fascist antisemites??? The immigrants ??? The police toting machine guns ??”

It’s the same in the US now. I’ll just keep my head down in the louvre and musee Rodin … and just soak it all in…”

I’ve been considering Spain, Vietnam, Ecuador, and Australia. Nothing to do with Trump. I just want to try new things before I die. I’m 50.

[quote]Nowhere. This is still the best place there is

Still? You're fucking nuts. It hasn't been "the best place there is" in decades. And now look at it, on a rocketship to redefine the very bottom.

New Zealand, you get the strong hot Aussie man vibe but without the hundreds of killer vermin factored in.

[quote] the hundreds of killer vermin factored in.

That’s a good way to describe the Aussie population.

Have you been to any of those countries, R38?

I’d rather end up in Panama than an Asian country, because it’s closer to the states and I already speak the language.

Also, there’s no good music to dance to in a place like Thailand or the Philippines. I’d rather end up in a country where people know how to merengue, and have the real thing (music) to accompany it, than in a country surrounded by a bunch of perverted old white men looking for very “petite” Asian teens in a bar where they’re playing MC Hammer’s “Can’t touch this” or “Me so Horny” on repeat.

You know that unless you are living in remote areas, that’s 👆🏽 EXACTLY how it is.

[quote] Still? You're fucking nuts. It hasn't been "the best place there is" in decades. And now look at it, on a rocketship to redefine the very bottom.

I'm not crazy and I've travelled and lived all over the world. This is still the best place there is despite our current situation. Younger Americans have been taught to hate this country and speak mostly out of their asses because they haven't had to experience centuries-old oligarchies, coups d'etat, political assassinations on a mass scale, serious economic uncertainty, relentless social violence, etc. in their lifetime. I'd be surprised if, of all of those who are searching for another country to live in because of Trump, only 0.01% actually does it.

I know an older Gay couple who just retired to Spain. And they LOVE it. Find out what their minimum requirement is for annual income. Passive income. They don't want you to be dependent on the state. And you can buy private health insurance if you need to augment the state health care. It's not expensive. Also, cars. You won't need one. They have excellent rail service all over Europe I don't wee any reason to stay here if you can have a better life elsewhere. I love my country, but right now my country doesn't love me. I may not become a 100% expat, but I may very well stay abroad at least 6 months out of a year and maintain an address here even if it's at a relatives house.

R27

Can’t you just fly into Kansas City and drive the rest of the way?

Spain and Portugal, to quote DL icon Vivian Vance, have sufficient of Americans coming to their countries to live.

Mexico City is also very over Americans coming to their city and gentrifying the fuck out of every neighborhood.

PV is OK if you want to live in a tourist town and never leave it (the cartels are not too far outside city limits).

Most European countries are dealing with similar issues to ours. Fleeing the US to escape to a perceived paradise may sound enticing but we'd likely be going from the frying pan into the fire.

Spain is set to crack down on foreign home buyers. 100% tax. It kills the fantasy but I appreciate why they're doing it.

Thank you, R43, for your in-depth analysis of why you wouldn't live in any of the fifty countries in Asia - they don't merengue there and the countries are populated by old white men listening to MC Hammer.

And people say that Americans are clueless, parochial and shallow! The very nerve!

R42. No. But I’d like to.

R49, don’t condescend to me, please.

Retirement wise or as a place to settle down, the criteria I mentioned are my preferences.

I’ve spent much of my early adulthood absorbing culture, and while I understand that Asian culture is as beautiful as it is endless, understand that when I turn 70, I want to be surrounded by people with whom I can easily and fluently communicate with, and YES… I want to dance to merengue, cumbia, salsa, etc., and I want to did around others who also want to do and know how to what I want to do.

Conversely, Latin American culture is also expansive, rich and beautiful.

I can truly like and appreciate both, while preferring one over the as a place to permanently land, were I to leave America and live abroad as an Expat.

Also? White, European & American men DO travel multiple Asian countries, as well as Central and South American countries, specifically for sex tourism purposes. It is a TINY sliver of unpleasantness in either either hemisphere, and obviously not an all encompassing feature which would prohibit one from living in either.

And? I attempted to crack a few jokes in my post, and I’m fine if you didn’t pick up on it, but you should know just in case you were wondering.

Correction:

“and I want to do it around others”

But Madame Merengue R51- you’re so easy to condescend to!

Just a tip - you can take it or leave it - making sweeping statements about a continent of 50 nations really does expose you to ridicule.

Happy dancing!

R44 the food in America is absolutely horrible. I mean really toxic and bad. And it’s on purpose. That’s kinda diabolical. What could be “the best” about that? 3rd world countries have cleaner food options than America.

And America has the best health insurance that nobody can afford. People live in fear of going to the doctor so they rarely do unless they are sick. It’s funny I saw a group of 40/50 year olds rollerblading in Italy. I said that’s the kind of thing you do when you have national health insurance. I gave it up in the states when I was 30 because I had no health insurance.

When I first moved to Italy in 2021 on a student visa and finally got the public health insurance - as a student it was 175€ a YEAR. Melori has since raised that to 750€ a year. But since my husband now works her and pays into the system, it’s already paid for.

But with my deductible in the states I was still getting bills close to $750 with healthy insurance.

[quote]This is still the best place there is despite our current situation

I guess it depends on your state and your financial situation. There's lot to love about the US - fantastic places to visit, heaps of attractions, good music and theater, world class services if you can afford them. But at a broader level, issues relating to health care, workers' rights, campaign finance and guns place it below many other Western nations. Not to mention a political environment that is almost beyond belief.

As R56 points out, on the things that really matter in life day to day, that affect people everyday, the US is not the best place - Food, Health, Primary & Secondary Education, Cost of living. The US is way down on the totem pole when it comes to providing those things for its citizens. And it's not because it can't (it most certainly could afford the best in everything), it's only because it doesn't want to, doesn't have to. People will continue to say "This is still the best place there is," without even questioning the statement. So why would they change?

[quote]I know an older Gay couple who just retired to Spain. And they LOVE it. Find out what their minimum requirement is for annual income. Passive income. They don't want you to be dependent on the state. And you can buy private health insurance if you need to augment the state health care. It's not expensive. Also, cars. You won't need one. They have excellent rail service all over Europe I don't wee any reason to stay here if you can have a better life elsewhere. I love my country, but right now my country doesn't love me. I may not become a 100% expat, but I may very well stay abroad at least 6 months out of a year and maintain an address here even if it's at a relatives house.

For the first full year at least, you must provide for all of your health care through private insurance. It is cheap, about €60 a month for someone under 70, and covers everything except the usual pharmacy drugs which are very cheap - usually less than a few euros per month per drug. Drug prices are controlled. Very costly drugs might be as high as €30 month. Drugs like Wegovy that are not yet within the health system can cost €130 - 190 a month. Expensive meds as for HIV are made available free for Spanish residents (a visitor passing through who needed a prescription for Biktary, for example, would be given the drug and asked (not necessarily expected) to pay €200 for one month´s supply ($4500 - $7700 per month in the U.S.)

As for an American living six-months each year in Europe, check out the Schengen are rules for non-EU citizens which limits your stay to 90 days within a rolling calendar. Arrive on December 1 and you would have to exit not more than 90 days later -- the calendar year is unimportant, you're allowed 90 days then then required to be outside the Schengen area countries (not an exact EU match) for the next 90 days. You can´t stay six months or 180 days in the Schengen area as a non-EU citizen, though you can visit for 90 days at a time after every absence of 90 days.

In Spain, France, and Italy, for example, if you live in the country for more than 183 days in any calendar year you become a tax citizen, meaning that you must file a tax statement to both Spain, France, or Italy and the US. The two countries have a treaty to prevent double-taxation, so normally it´s a file twice pay once situation in which you would pay taxes to Spain, France, or Italy and then have only to report to the US.

People are currently in no mood to entertain Americans. In my couple decades living outside the US, I’ve never seen such a rise in anti-USA sentiment as in the past couple weeks. I’m considering using a voice coach to work on further reducing my accent.

If Trump steals Social Security, I will only be able to afford a cremation policy.

I want my ashes dumped into the gutter Trump created.

^ On top of Ivana Trump then, R60?

Ivana is dug on a Trump golf course.

I would settle for a random gutter.

I don’t believe I’m in a financial position to move… but if I were, what come to mind are Amsterdam, a semi-rural English cottage, or Venice.

R59 Please tell me which accent you're hoping to achieve.

I'm not going anywhere, this is my home.

My home this is.

Gaza Strip!

I have and might yet again

[quote] the food in America is absolutely horrible. I mean really toxic and bad. And it’s on purpose.

What, do you really think they're deliberately trying to kill us? Because if you do that means you have no common sense.

It's true that there is some horrible food available in the US, as there is everywhere else in the world. But nowadays it's up to you if you want to continue consuming junk or choose to eat healthy. The variety of food choices in America is greater than in any of the 50+ countries I have visited.

It’s a food desert!

I don’t hate Flyoverstan and am used to the idea that colder weather cities function better on this continent. Somewhere is Canada would sound just fine. I would think southern Ontario would have many similarities and proximity to the American Midwest. I won’t ever call it the ‘M’ word, I pinky swear.

“M” word?

R69 if you really had been to “50+ countries”, you would:

A) not make such a stupid statement and

B) be a little more worldly regarding the food available in your great USA

Bless your heart, but you haven’t been to 50+ countries.

As always with these “I’m moving” threads there is the blithe assumption that countries worldwide are thrilled to be graced with the presence of American refugees. They never, and in particular after the last two weeks, were.

You’re not exactly popular, USA.

I lived in the Middle West.

[quote]R74 As always with these “I’m moving” threads there is the blithe assumption that countries worldwide are thrilled to be graced with the presence of American refugees.

Of course they want us. By listening, they can pick up English from us!

A brand new oceanfront TRUMP GAZA CONDOMINIUM!

R72 I meant with the similarities I wouldn’t call Ontario the midwest.

Thank you, R78.

Well, 6th grade English perhaps, R76.

“So…like…totally basically”.

Montreal, Italy, Australia

[quote]What, do you really think they're deliberately trying to kill us? Because if you do that means you have no common sense. It's true that there is some horrible food available in the US, as there is everywhere else in the world. But nowadays it's up to you if you want to continue consuming junk or choose to eat healthy. The variety of food choices in America is greater than in any of the 50+ countries I have visited.

It costs a fortune to eat healthy in the US. After decades of living in Italy, and back in the US, eating well here is incredibly problematic. If I were in a big city it would be a lot easier though still outrageously expensive.

R13 moves to France just as they get Le Pen into office. lol.

I propose that DLers collectively purchase property in a gay-friendly, developed country (Portugal?) and form a utopia of bitchery!

I fear if I lived in an official Gay Community my Madame Alexander doll collection would be stolen OVERNIGHT!

We're currently on an "Indochina" tour, so I'm posting this from Siem Reap. Unless my son and DIL decide to exit the US, I'm unlikely to move. Even if they did, I would only move for part of the year because my partner has a business. That said, he's fallen in love with Cambodia. The people are lovely, the dollar is accepted almost everywhere, and it's very clean, at least in Siem Reap. Food is inexpensive and delicious. And we both got killer massages today. Granted, it's touristy and it's the dry season, but for all our travels, he's rarely talked about making an exit from the US. I agree with the posters about learning a language and becoming part of a community. Does anyone know how long you have to stay outside of a Schengen country before you can return for for another 90 days?

Serious question, R86 - what is so great about the dollar being accepted almost everywhere? Would you be uncomfortable making transactions in local currency?

As a tourist, it's just easier. I have a pocketful of baht right now and will get some dong when we get to Ho Chi Minh City. This isn't my first rodeo. I don't like getting cash at airports so being able to tip in dollars without inconveniencing service people is helpful.

[quote]Does anyone know how long you have to stay outside of a Schengen country before you can return for for another 90 days?

R86: See R58. After staying in the Schengen zone for 90 days, you must stay outside of the zone for 90 consecutive days. It's on a rolling calendar basis, so the clock starts when you set foot in the Schengen zone. If you jump in and out of the zone on multiple visits, you can find a free Schengen app to keep track. Note that arrival and departure days count as full days within the 90-day limit.

R86 try visiting Chengdu, it’s the gayest city in China

I’ve travelled to southern Africa (SA, Botswana, Namibia) twice and loved it both times. I love the outdoors and wildlife photography so being in proximity to all of that would be a big plus. And Cape Town is arguably the most cosmopolitan, modern and liberal city on the continent, in addition to being really beautiful. I could see myself living there although I’m under no illusions about the risk to personal safety. Also it’s very far from the rest of the world if you need to regularly return home or want to travel outside the region. Same would go apply the SE Asia, Australia or NZ though.

I just got back form three weeks in Australia and two weeks in New Zealand. I would move to the South Island of NZ in a heart beat. I am retired, and can afford to move.......just too old to put up with four more years of that orange shot stain and his racist, homophobic bullshit. Fuck him and FUCK YOU if you still support him.

If I could afford it, Switzerland.

Thanks, R89!

Well, "if I could afford it" puts a whole new spin on this question.

How Chengdu is more gay than Wangfun is beyond me r90.

R96 there are so many cities to choose from in China with wonderful gay scenes.

Gaoping is popular with the fisting and giant dildo crowd.

Donggang is known hither and yon for some of the finest orgies in the Far East.

Fuqing speaks for itself.

Nan'an for the Michfest gals.

Pu'er City for the scat queens.

I’m moving to Thailand when I retire. Fuck this ass backward country. I’m done with America. Thailand is a great place that gets you the best bang for your bucks but doesn’t compromise on quality of life. It’s also one of the most progressive countries.

I wouldn’t move next door to Ellen (UK) -her neighbors already hate her…

[quote]I’m moving to Thailand when I retire. Fuck this ass backward country.

Could you please explain to us how the US is an "ass backward country" in comparison to Thailand?

R86 don’t confuse visiting as a tourist with jumping through the bureaucratic hoops as an expat.

As for the rest of you circumcised lot: Most EU-nations would prefer American immigrants over muslim immigrants, but only by a thinning margin.

BANGKOK! Fabulous city and a must-visit every couple of years. But to live there, day in day out? Never.

[quote] BANGKOK! Fabulous city

It’s also an Oriental city.

R100 isn't aware that Australia and Thailand are separate countries.

Foreign names are funny, aren't they, R97? Ha ha.

Sophisticated American humor.

R101/Dutchie I thought I made it pretty clear I wasn't confusing a tourist visit with moving.

[quote]As for the rest of you circumcised lot: Most EU-nations would prefer American immigrants over muslim immigrants, but only by a thinning margin.

We met someone from the Netherlands in Siem Reap. Less than five minutes into our conversation, he went off on Muslims. I understand that it's a problem but we didn't need to hear that. Attractive man turned ugly very quickly..

[quote] isn't aware that Australia and Thailand are separate countries.

R103 is so stupid that he thinks that thumbnail at R100 represents the article.

R100 is so stupid that he posted the link but didn’t notice the thumbnail and is now justifiably embarrassed at being caught out.

The Geography curriculum not particularly strong where you went to school, R100?

R88 - if this isn’t your first rodeo you would know that tap ‘n go / contactless payments where you get the option to pay in local or your home currency are the way to go pretty much anywhere in Europe, Asia or ANZ. Grab a hundred USD worth of the local currency at your home airport - oh, wait - you’re American - well, do your best, otherwise get some notes from any ATM on arrival for those times when plastic won’t do it.

And also if this isn’t your first rodeo you would know that non-USA travelers get seriously annoyed at Americans who think that they have to tip every where to anyone. Outside the USA, you don’t. It’s considered insulting in some countries.

Safe travels.

Girls! Girls! You’re both equally annoying.

There are two big factors in how DLers are approaching this question.

1.) How old are you?

2.) Are you single or partnered?

Picking up and moving with your partner when you're 50 is completely different than relocating as a 65 year old single gay man. Single people, especially older single people, are already adept at going it alone. But the cultural isolation you might feel living alone in a country other than the one you've spent your adult life in (especially if there is a language barrier) is something else again.

Queretaro, Mexico. Seriously. Look it up. High desert so no fears of natural disasters. Good climate. Safe. All the modern amenities. Very Americanized. Affordable. No cartel activity. It is in a neutral area. Big city, but very suburban.

[quote][R100] is so stupid that he posted the link but didn’t notice the thumbnail and is now justifiably embarrassed at being caught out.

LOL. Nice try.

[quote] EU-nations would prefer American immigrants over muslim immigrants, but only by a thinning margin

Americans shouldn’t sell themselves short. One thing we do very well is pay taxes and we and we are born and bred consumers - two great pluses for any economy. I live in Italy where it’s a badge of honor how much you can get over. People barely pay for public transport and you can’t go to jail for not paying taxes.

[quote]But the cultural isolation you might feel living alone in a country other than the one you've spent your adult life in (especially if there is a language barrier) is something else again.

An excellent point; while there are no doubt individuals on this thread that could actually make the move, I guess for myself it's more of a daydream - an escape from the current reality - that I could spend my days rambling around some remote countryside in another country, though it is a global economy and there's trouble everywhere

Bermuda

I've been a permatourist or nomad, however you want to call it, for the past four years. I'll probably continue for the foreseeable future, because with the current geopolitical situation and climate change, you never know what a place will be like in 5 or 10 years. I really like the southern cone of South America, even if Milei is an obnoxious Great Value Trump wannabe. France has lots of nice places that are surprisingly affordable, and is about as first world developed as it gets.

There is another country that still likes Americans... it's Albania. Americans can stay there for a year visa free and travel in and out. After a year, you just have to leave for 90 days, then you get another year. Albania is obviously a developing country, certainly not without its issues, but it's up and coming, cheap, with gorgeous beaches. You can take a ferry to Italy or Greece, and the local food is heavily influenced by those countries. Tirana airport has cheap flights to several European hubs.

R111

Ahhh, looks gorgeous!

Despite Spain being too popular for its own good anymore, it’s high up my list, both because of familiarity and already having a social circle back there in a small corner of the country.

I will often be confused for a local there too, and can speak Spanish at about an intermediate level. When I go back it already feels like home away from home.

Don't laugh, but I was shocked at how inexpensive gorgeous new housing is in South Africa and in Ghana. Both countries are modern and stable.

[quote]Both countries are modern and stable.

Uh huh...

R108 - WTAF is wrong with you? One offhand remark about the ease of using US dollars as Americans and you go off. You probably come from one of those countries where people don't tip. Locals in Southeast Asia don't all have tap and pay. You do all your traveling on YouTube. I've actually traveled all over the world. So go fuck yourself.

Nice, stable and measured response from R121.

You Americans are so touchy these days - but I do understand why.

Safe travels, R121! And stop tipping outside the USA! Nobody else does.

I tip who, where, and when it's appropriate and and appropriate amount. It varies all over the world. At Tam Coc today, a man rowed us for two hours through the karst formations. He deserved a tip. You wouldn't tip him, you cheap bastard.

I recommend moving to a blue area here within the US as a less extreme way to reduce the MAGA in your life, if it’s become too much.

That, and visiting an overseas country for at least a month before pulling up stakes and moving there.

R122 - R123 is for you And for the record, I did not tip our tour guide today. He was awful.

[quote]I'd be surprised if, of all of those who are searching for another country to live in because of Trump, only 0.01% actually does it.

It's very difficult for most people to emigrate to other countries, especially Europe. You either need a lot of money, a lot of education, or specific skills that require a lot of education...and preferably all three. Joe Schmoe who works in a cubicle creating Excel spreadsheets and makes $50k a year isn't going to be able to pack up and move to Europe.

R126, that's not exactly true. What you would most likely need however is a remote version of whatever work you do. They just approved the Nomad Visa in Italy and my friend just got it. She does medical writing. The person making 50K in the US is probably the exact person who should move to Europe if they can. That 50K will feel like 100k . Your monthly expenses would be about 2500K a month or less. MOST of the expats I know here were not rich - waiters, dog walkers, LAPD. The dream is to make American money but live in a country like Italy or Spain, even parts of France. When I first did it, I took out a chunk out of my 401K. At the time there were no penalties for early withdrawal. I am sure Trump has another one of those coming up soon.

Actually the rich people you describe are probably yo enshrined in their lives in the States to ever make such a big move. They say they'll do it someday when they retire, but they usually die before that day ever comes. Emigrating to another country is for dreamers, people who can envision a completely different life for themselves and have the discipline to get it done. It is not easy, like you said. But it is doable for those who want to do it - and you don't have to be any of the things you describe in your post r126.

Italy has a fascist ruler too

[Quote] There is another country that still likes Americans... it's Albania. Americans can stay there for a year visa free and travel in and out.

But they’re Muslims!! They will bomb you the second they see you! They will throw gays off roofs!!

[quote] Both countries are modern and stable.

[quote]Uh huh...

Unlike the U.S. R120, South Africa still has a functioning democracy and the rule of law. Last year’s election there was proof of it, just like last year’s election in the U.S. proved it’s gone forever.

Every European country has different visas and different requirements. There are plenty of resources on YouTube that go into detail. If there is a will, there is a way. I'm far from wealthy and I have spent years in Europe, both on tourist visas and a sponsored work visa.

[quote] But they’re Muslims!! They will bomb you the second they see you! They will throw gays off roofs!!

Albanians are mostly not religious at all. Yes there are mosques there, but it feels very secular.

Albanians are muslim in name only.

Yes R129, but the beauty and the flaw of the government setup in Italy is that a Leader cannot govern by executive order. They can't change the course of the nation with a swipe of a pen. There are a bunch of different parties and the majority of them have to agree on something for anything to get done. So it takes forever to change something for the better OR worse. And leaders never usually last that long.

Albania! Albania! You border on the Adriatic.

Why doesn't Croatia ever seem to come up as an option? Not just this thread, but in any general "escape the USA" conversation?

[quote] Why doesn't Croatia ever seem to come up as an option?

Because we are not one of its faaaaaaaaaaaans!

Because most Americans aren’t aware of Croatia’s existence.

I think it's hard to get a long-term visa for Croatia. It's become quite expensive as well since they joined the EU.

Croatia was having a moment a few years ago as a tourist spot. The beaches are quite beautiful. But yes, odd that it's not joining the ranks of Portugal, Spain, Italy and Greece as "expat" destinations.

The only places to live are too expensive for me.

But if I could afford it I'd be heading to Sweden or Norway. Danish and Finnish are too hard,

Croatia was big when Game of Thrones was on. Everyone wanted to go see King’s Landing.

spain

Denmark is my country of dreams and was my escape plan for Trump winning in November, but now he's fouled up any goodwill they had for Americans by threatening them over Greenland.

I work for a Danish company and would love more than anything for them to sponsor me to work over there, but it's extremely, extremely difficult. They have to prove they can't find a Danish resident for the job and I'd have to be fluent in Danish.

I get to travel to the main office in Copenhagen once or twice a year and it's truly a wonderful place. Except for the weather.

Sweden. I have a permanent residency permit (permanent uppehållstillstån) that I have renewed continuously for the past four decades – I got it thanks to a bureaucratic error when I lived there as an exchange student in high school. I know the language, have many friends that are now spread out across the country, and am legally entitled to government social services (but have never used them, so maybe not). I have visited dozens of times and use my US passport and permanent uppehållstillstån to get through immigration. Just like when I lived there in the 1980's, Sweden has immigrant problems. Back then it was Iranians and Turks; now it's Syrians, Iraqis, and Somalis. I'm within ten years of full retirement, so I will be looking into it seriously.

Other than Sweden, I would consider Germany and the UK if they would have me. I could not abide a warm climate year round and I'm not sure I want to learn an entirely new language like Vietnamese or Thai.

I love their pad Thai!

Because they still have stuff for a pound at Poundland

In two months, I'm leaving FL to go back to Panama. Hopefully, my Pensionada visa will be ready by then (they say it takes 2-6 months). I have a three week stay planned, and I'll drive around the country and see which place seems best for me to land. And yes, I'll be blowing through a good chunk of my savings doing that. I have an idea of the town I want to live in, but how can you tell until you've at least visited? So I'll just wander around in a rental car until I fall in love with a place, I hope.

I have, however, revised my initial plan somewhat. Instead of staying in Panama on this trip, I'm going to come back to Deplorable Haven and hang out for awhile. Because I don't pay rent here in FL (like I will in Panama), I can save some money to make up for what I spend on this trip. Plus, I just cannot bear to have my dear old dog put down just yet. She's too old to take (15), but too spry to kill. So, Retirement Visa in hand, I'll just wait here in FL for as long as I think it's safe and then I'll ride back down to Panama on my motorcycle to stay for the duration. I'd really like to do that right now -- it will be a great adventure, if it doesn't kill me first! But I'll hunker down here until I feel I can't stay in the US any longer, or until my little dog dies, whichever comes first.

I attached a pic of my little Cricket, the love of her mother's dog life. I've had her since she was 7 months old, and we've been through a lot together. I can't abandon her now -- this is the longest relationship I've ever had!

Hopefully, everything will work out OK.

Awwwwwww. Dollface post.

Yeah, R150, I think so. But I'm her mom, so I may be a bit biased.

Croatia isn't very difficult as a place to acquire a long-term stay visa. You have to indicate where and for what purpose and for how long you plan to stay, and demonstrate that you can support yourself financially and secure a minimum level of health insurance. The process and requirements fairly typical of many EU countries, with no unusual nor difficult turns. And like many EU countries, if you need to support yourself through work in Croatia, that's another problem - usually solved after attaining some residency status after 1 year or X years. (Moving to another country and having to set out to look for a local job immediately is rarely an easy thing - most residency processes are centered on NOT taking a local job in your new country.)

R130 Perhaps you don't travel much, but as R132 and R133 said, Albania is European and secular and has no official religion. About 50% of the country identifies as nominally Muslim. They had a period of communism in recent history where the practice of any religion was strongly discouraged. You can't really compare them culturally to the Middle East. You see more women in hijabs in Bosnia and Herzegovina, but even there, the culture is different than the Middle East. I was in Sarajevo and Mostar during Ramadan a few years ago. Right after final evening prayers, people left the mosques to break the fast by downing a few beers. People from Albania, and to a slightly lesser extent, Bosnia and Herzegovina, have much more in common with the greater European culture that they are part of than they do the Arabs.

R86, R89 There are a number of countries that are part of the Schengen Zone that have additional bilateral treaties with 3rd countries allowing for greater than a 90 day stay. This includes those traveling with an American passport. Most of these countries allow an additional 90 days or 3 months. It's important to remember that you must stay in that country for the additional days (not travel to, or even through, other Schengen countries). Some of these countries require you to leave the country for at least one day then return for the bilateral agreement. Others allow you to stay 180 days without leaving.

Scroll down to "US and Europe VISA WAIVER BILATERAL AGREEMENTS"

Additional reference on bilateral agreements (extentions on 90/180 Schengen rule for specific countries).

R138 I've been to Croatia 3 times. The first time it was still Yugoslavia. I'm never sure how to count how many countries I've been to. I went to Czechoslovakia in 1987 then to the Czech Republic and Slovakia a number of times after that. I've been to Serbia, Bosnia & Herzegovina, Croatia and Slovenia, but I also went to Yugoslavia in 1983. I went to West Germany and East Germany in 1983, but have been to reunified Germany a number of times since. I've been to somewhere between 27 and 30 countries in Europe depending on how you count it.

R142 Dubrovnik is where they filmed a lot of Game of Thrones. They have Game of Thrones tours as well as nic nacs to buy. Very touristy. It's a beautiful port city, but it has lots of ships that port during the day making it crowded and ruining the feel of the place. Best to go to the old town area in the evening after the ships leave. The first time that I ever went to Dubrovnik was by ship from Corfu. It wasn't a cruise. We left the ship and stayed 5 days. That was in 1983. It was still communist Yugoslavia then and not quite as crowded.

[quote]nic nacs

Oh, dear!

Once you get your Visa to the EU, that is just the beginning of the hoops you have to jump through to stay in the country.

R159: There is no EU visa. It's that tricky country/continent thing.

One gets a visa from a member country of the EU, not from the whole of the EU. EU citizens have freedom of movement and to live, study, or work anywhere in the EU -- while non-EU citizens are granted visas by an individual member country of the EU for specific purposes and lengths of time, quite different from the rights of EU citizens.

EU member nations have their own requirements and administrative process for granting visas. There is no one-stop concierge service government office to hook up immigrants with visas, residency permits, registry of local address, etc. No more than such a thing exists in the U.S. for people who seek to immigrate there. It's like anything else, once you understand the exact details of the process, it's not difficult. But for anyone unfamiliar with the details of sequence and steps and various offices and required documents as evidence in support of your application it's a little harrowing in its seeming intricacy.

R124 Blue states won’t be safe. I don’t think they will even have the patience to wait for the rigged upcoming elections to switch them all red. I wouldn’t even be surprised if the Democratic party is declared a terrorist organization. The military is going to arrest most of the blue state governors this year.

Thanks for the explanation R160, but I've gone through the process several times. I am under no misconception that there is an EU Visa. I have an Italian Visa - actually a permesso di soggiorno now that I have to renew every year. I, for one, didn't want to continue to hyjack the thread JUST about Italy, because a lot of the things mentioned in the video DO apply in other EU countries. And secondly, once you do have a Visa from a particular EU country, you can pretty much live anywhere in the EU for the period of time it is valid. I have a permesso for Italy, I am a resident of Florence, but if I wanted to tomorrow I could move to Lyon France for the duration of my permit.

Among the easier places to attain citizenship:

R149 I'm just here to say that Senior Lesbian's little dog is precious. We just lost our dog, and it's been devastating. But we still have two senior cats and eldercare for a senior mother limiting our ability to leave this festering fascist shithole.

Thanks so much, Sylvia @ R164.

OMG Cricket is fucking gorgeous SL/R149. What a gift to your life.

I have a friend who is living in Reykjavik and wants to stay there. He managed find an IT job that allows him to stay a year. He’s learning the language (but speaks English at work). He loves it but downside is it’s expensive & housing is hard to find.

Next month, I'm venturing to Morocco to check it out. After all, Tangier was THE gay refuge in the 60s and 70s.

Just remember: in Casablanca, human life is cheap.

I got a totally out-of-the-blue Reddit ad for a company that facilitates obtaining Italian citizenship. I have no idea why that would be targeted to me.

oh yeah? you can do that on your own.

Better get your passports as fast as possible. Tiktok is reporting a coming crackdown and the access to get them is inindated now. They expect a freeze, and ypu know what that means.

^^^That's another thing I was worried about. OTOH, mine expires in 2028, so it's not good forever...

[quote]Covid and the riots in NYC after having lived there for close to thirty years was enough for us.

i.e. "we wanted to move somewhere with no blacks."

[quote]It's worth remembering that, for instance, Italy is led by a right-wing government

Yeah, and so is the United States. Italy's "right wing" government is still nowhere near American Republicanism.

[quote] I remember sitting in a window at a hotel looking down and repeating to myself - there is nothing left for me here, there is nothing left for me here.

Did pour yourself another drink?

r21 is a high-maintenance DRAMA QUEEN.

[quote]They do this very weird thing on international flights - no matter the time you are traveling: They will have a dinner service, lights down low, and then a few hours later, no matter the time a breakfast service. It really fucks you up. It makes sense when you are leaving at 8pm at night. But when you are leaving at 4pm in the afternoon, to have dinner at 6 pm and breakfast at midnight because it's 6am where you are landing, is crazy.

JFC this post belongs in the Entitled White Cunt Hall Of Fame.

American here who's traveled all over the world and as beautiful and lovely as so many countries are, I've come to the conclusion that I am 100% American and couldn't live anywhere else. Yes the US is a fucked up insane asylum but I still love it and it's still my home.

Racist dummy at r174, I AM black.

[quote] Tiktok is reporting

Just stop, r172. People should have passports, but not because of rumors manufactured for views and monetization.

Actually r177, I am very low maintenance. That’s what makes jumping back into very high maintenance NYC difficult. I used to be able to it in my sleep. Now it’s just exhausting. I enjoy my much simpler life, the peace it brings. I was addicted to stimulation before. NYC is hyper-realized in every way.

R176, I was a big coke head at the time. I probably cut up another line. By the end I was doing coke and drinking every night. I was quite the functioning mess. Covid sucked, the year right after especially so.

It’s so hard to believe we are coming up on the 5th anniversary of lockdown already.

don’t condescend to me, please. don’t condescend to me, please.

Frau cunt kill her now!!! Obviously who are you to ask anything for anything you stupid cunt, THIS AIN'T FUCKING MOMMY CENTRAL, broken glass up cunt bitch please!!!

[quote] And secondly, once you do have a Visa from a particular EU country, you can pretty much live anywhere in the EU for the period of time it is valid. I have a permesso for Italy, I am a resident of Florence, but if I wanted to tomorrow I could move to Lyon France for the duration of my permit.

That is not true. A residence permit from one EU country (like your permesso in Italy) does not let you live permanently in another EU country. It allows short visits (up to 90 days in a 180-day period), but if you want to move to France long-term, you'd need to apply for a residence permit there. Only long-term EU residents (after 5+ years) get easier mobility, but even they still need to go through local immigration procedures. This isn't the case, of course, for people born in a EU country, because we are god's chosen people, and it also isn't the case for those who obtain citizenship.

Once you obtained citizenship, and only then, you have the same right as EU-citizens born in the EU, and you can pack your bags and start a new life in Lyon (which is, indeed, a lovely city).

I should add: Of course, as long as your temporary visit is valid, you may pretend living in another EU-country for 90 days within a 180-day period. But that's all it is, because if you then decide to stay in "that other EU-country", you will have to go through all the hoops bureaucracy again, and "country-hopping" isn't looked kindly on, and may be grounds for refusal.

I tried getting citizenship in Ireland and Italy from grandparents, but couldn't find the right documentation. Maybe Canada then, as my husband was born in Newfoundland.

[quote]American here who's traveled all over the world and as beautiful and lovely as so many countries are, I've come to the conclusion that I am 100% American and couldn't live anywhere else. Yes the US is a fucked up insane asylum but I still love it and it's still my home.

Happy for you, R178 but our views turned out differently. I was born in the US and lived there for most of my life, but never felt that pull you describe. If anything, I had a pesky suspicion that only grew that the best life for me was outside the US. Reading and travel and education only persuaded me of the idea that I would feel most at home in some place where I was a stranger.

Certainly I understood Americans, but it was rare that I felt understood by them.

In the Whit Stillman film "Barcelona," the lead character explains why you should always marry a foreigner:

[quote]"What's really terrific is that when we act in ways which might objectively be considered incredibly obnoxious or annoying,...They don't get upset at all, they don't take it personally, they just assume it's some national characteristic."

It's true. When your partner, your friends, your In-laws, your neighbors are from another country and culture and you grew up speaking different languages, you start from a different place and have to find some real connection beyond shared experience, cultural references, pop music, etc. There's more overlooking of quirky things as in Whit Stillman's film, and the result are different sorts of connection.

You know you're not going, shut up, you tire us.

R24 I have several senior dogs. I could never leave them. We are family.

People and their pets anymore. When I was growing up, I had a dog that I love immensely. But we did not act like, lovers…

[quote] People and their pets anymore

?

Bariloche. But Argentina needs to depose the baby Trump in charge first.

I am going to complete my fourth year in Italy.i moved here June 2021. Just one more year and I can apply for permanent residency. Boy does time fly. I hope the current administration doesn’t mess that up for me. Are there any other expats here? Florence/Firenze possibly?

Where did people get this idea that you can not relocate to another country with a pet? I've heard it repeated many times on the DL in these expat threads.

Positive anymore.

It definitely can be done and easily R195. When I emigrated from Australia to Holland we took our cat with us. The cat flew KLM and we picked him up from Schiphol airport about 60 minutes after his plane had landed. He was fine and very happy to see us. There was a bit of paperwork and some vaccination shots (most importantly rabies which we don't have in Australia) which the cat had to have within a certain amount of days before we left - 30 to 40 days I think. The was no quarantine going into Europe or the UK.

However, Australia and New Zealand are rabies free (and don't have various other pests and diseases which the rest of the world have) so bringing a domestic pet into our countries is a lot more difficult and there are extremely strict quarantine requirements where the animal must stay in federal government quarantine facilities. It was 6 months last time I looked. It's also quite expensive.

But for the countries which most Americans would be emigrating to - taking your pet will be simple. There are professional pet transport companies which tell you what you need to do, pick up your pet on the day, make sure all the receiving country conditions are met, supply a special air transport animal cage which you keep, take the animal through customs and put it on the plane. Then you just pick your pet up at the other end. It was 100% worth it. I have an American friend who after living in Australia for 20+ years, got divorced from her Australian husband and decided to return to San Francisco. She took her cat with her and it was easy with no quarantine into the US.

^ moving your pet to the EU is not simple. You basically have to get a passport for them as well. There are a ton of tests and paperwork necessary beforehand. It’s possible but it’s not an easy 1,2,3.

“I’m walking away…”

R198 It's actually pretty easy for most EU countries. You do not need a pet passport to bring a pet from the US to the EU as the US doesn't even have such a thing. It is worth getting one in the EU if you will be traveling around various countries with a pet. I only had to have proof of rabies vaccination of my cat which had to be linked to the microchip (dogs and cats do have to be chipped) and the cat had to have a vet check by USDA-accredited vet (not at all difficult to find in any medium to large city in the US). He was able to fly cabin space (under the seat in front of me) on Lufthansa. This was a few months ago.

R198 - yes that included the pet passport which was arranged by the pet transport company. And I'm sorry - but it was fairly simple. Especially since we were coming from the other side of the world. There was definitely information and paperwork we had to supply and vaccinations which had to be given in a certain timeframe and the check up given by an accredited vet - but it was all fairly simple for a layperson to get through and it was totally worth it.

Australia but then I see a video of spiders under a bed...

R197 if you truly emigrated there, you would call it THE NETHERLANDS.

r197 you're the kind of person Joan Crawford would've wanted to set on fire.

[quote]However, Australia and New Zealand are rabies free (and don't have various other pests and diseases which the rest of the world have)

Because they're two goddamnded islands in the middle of fucking nowhere that most of the rest of the civilized world doesn't care to visit.

There are times when getting from the sofa to the bathroom overwhelms me.

[quote]She took her cat with her and it was easy with no quarantine into the US

Don't worry Donald, I'll take care of this problem today.

My cat went with me to Europe for this past summer. It was just too long to consider using a pet sitter. He was actually born in the UK (Surrey) and came to the States when he was 17 weeks old. Since the UK is "rabies-free", he did not have to have a rabies vaccination to come to the States. As a matter of fact, there was no vaccination requirement at all (at least not back then). He unfortunately did have to go cargo. They didn't permit cabin space for pets traveling into/out of the UK. My poor old cat is much better traveled than most Americans!

I have relatives on the Gold Coast of Australia. They’re very kind and I’m sure would help me settle. Australia just seems like a lot. The people are great, the climate is interesting and the health care is good but it is just too far and expensive.

My other overseas relatives are in Finland. Hard pass.

I think I’m stuck here in the US. I’d entertain Canada, but for work I’d need a large city and the cost of living is too much. If us gets too bad here in the US, I’d be inclined to take whatever is left of my money, hop in the car and head west.

[quote]moving your pet to the EU is not simple. You basically have to get a passport for them as well. There are a ton of tests and paperwork necessary beforehand. It’s possible but it’s not an easy 1,2,3.

I moved a pet from Europe to the U.S. and eventually back to Europe. It's easier than immigrating, certainly, and not that difficult aside from the difficulty in getting reliable answers from airlines. In the EU dogs and cats have passports and are required to be microchipped, importing a dog or cat (or ferret, FFS) you need veterinary records that are equivalent to the information in an EU pet passport (age, breed, place of origin, vaccination record, major health issues), and airlines require a health certificate from a USDA accredited veterinarian, obtained shortly before travel so as to be current.

The only trick I found is that it is difficult to pin down details of the reservatiion for a pet. There are sometimes maximum numbers of pets permitted on a flight and specific airline requirements such as crate dimensions and materials. Different airlines -- and different airports-- have different ratings by pet owners. Calling the airline, expect to lose an hour or two trying to reach someone who can confirm the reservation details or answer a question. Layovers prose another complication, and then the question of transporting your to your new home. There can be an element of strees, certainly, but complicated because no pet owner wants to think of their dog or cat (or ferret, FFS) stuck in the hold of a plane, drugged, possibly arriving stressed and stinking of piss. As for underseat carriage of pets, it's better obviously for your pet --specifically for your quite small pet-- but possibly a nuisance to passengers near you. I considered liiving on two continents for a few years, but the principal argument against this was the strain on pets in their transportation. I didn't have that tiny pet who just loved to travel in the underseat compartment and made friends of everyone during the flight.

Any difficulty is far less international or bureaucratic than it is personal.

[quote]R197 you're the kind of person Joan Crawford would've wanted to set on fire.

Oh, I see R204.

Finland would be awesome to emigrate to. Of course if you could learn Finnish that would be huge because it's quite hard. But on the other hand, you are next door to Putin, so be prepared.

Yet another fucking clueless American, R205. It’s amazing how proud of your stupidity some of you are.

I feel like Jews in 1939. Should I leave? Yes/No-When?Where? and suddenly it’s too late.

You don't need to call the airline, you go onto the website and there is a chatbox...just type your question

my dog is part pitbull, only like 30 percent but there are countries in Europe that don't allow the pitbull breed. Do you guys know if they would allow a mixed pit?

r216, and there's good reason for that...

[quote] [Pitbulls are] prohibited in many countries across the globe - ranging from outright bans to restrictions and conditions on ownership.

[quote]Known as the top killer of children among all canines, they are banned or restricted in Denmark, France, Germany, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Spain, Switzerland and Turkey.

[quote]In the UK, it is entirely against the law to own, sell, abandon, give away, or breed any kind of Pit Bull Terrier.

Better to a Google search by country, R216, rather than ask for opinions on what people know or think or wish or have heard. Predictably there is much information to use as a starting point.

For example, from 'Surving France': "Importing into any French territory any dog resembling the following breeds, based on their morphology, is forbidden: Staffordshire terrier, American Staffordshire terrier (pitbulls), Mastiff (boerbulls) and Tosa."

I love how everyone responds to my post by saying how actually it's "super easy" to move your pet from the US - then proceeds to write a pamphlet's worth of instructions and exceptions.

yeah I know they ban pitpulls but my question is do they ban 100% pure breed pits only ? do they allow mixed?

Who is 'they'? What country/ies, R221. Look it up yourself.

Interesting article on people emigrating from and discussing leaving the US, R219.

[quote]The reason it stings some people is because the entire notion of the U.S. being a country people flee from rather than fleeing to turns American exceptionalism on its head. ...it’s a reminder of the hollowness of the refrain that we are “The Greatest Nation in the World”—a pin popping the balloon that is the American ego.

[quote]It’s emigration, not immigration, that should worry Americans. Because people wanting to leave, even if a relatively small number actually do it, is a sign that this country is losing its capacity to address even its most pressing problems.

Or as Trump might say more succinctly, 'Because people wanting to leave, even if a relatively small number actually do it, is a sign that this country is losing.'

If you own a pit bull, you have a more immediate problem than DJT.

You’re really rather stupid, aren’t you, R205?

R220 Paperwork aside, having to place my pet in the cargo hold is a deal-breaker for me. It also makes no sense; I have 10 pound cat -- how does it affect the national security of the UK if it flies in a carrier under my seat in the cabin?

If you have the money, they allow pets to fly in cabins on private chartered jets. There are basically pet "ride-share" companies that offer this service.

That's the best solution, R226, though not cheap, from about $9000 to $15,000 per seat between US and UK/Europe with pet included (no crate necessary.)

[R15] My husband and I just got back from Italy and our flight from LA to Heathrow was 10 and a half hours plus 2 and a half more to Italy. A long haul flight is actually a long ass flight. Thank god for Business Class. At our age we could never fly economy.

Mexico offers a 4-year tourist visa, you just need to renew every year but it is very straightforward. You can move there for four years and if Cheeto does not implode the country, come back.

Dollface thread.

R221 They are not going to genetically test to see if it's a pit bull. If a veterinarian will notice it's a pit bull then it's a pit bull. Many countries have a veterinarian at the airport that gives the animal a quick look-over on arrival and confirms papers are in order. That is what happened when I arrived with my cat. There was no vet check at the airport coming back to the US.

Another thing to consider when traveling with a pet is that many airlines have a policy against transporting brachycephalic cats and dogs. They are more prone to breathing issues and hyperthermia. This is the case with domestic flights as well. I've never had any issue bringing my cat in or out of the country (US/EU), but he just looks like a domestic shorthair. With the one exception of traveling from the UK to the US (cat was born in UK), he has always had cabin space. There is (or was) a policy that pets being transported in/out of the UK had to go as cargo. I don't know if that's still the case.

Ireland if you're willing to tolerate the rain. Government also giving €80k grant to refurbish old houses.

Alos excellent cheap connectivity to the continent and all that has to offer.

[quote] There is (or was) a policy that pets being transported in/out of the UK had to go as cargo. I don't know if that's still the case.

It's still the case.

When pets have to travel as cargo

"How your pet can travel depends on how you are travelling.

If you’re travelling by plane

Pets have to travel as cargo on a plane unless:

you’re flying on a chartered private plane

you’re travelling with a guide or assistance dog"

You bitch about people coming here with their crazy culture and then you suddenly think being American they want your dog nutter shit.

R191 I said my dogs are like family not that they are my lovers.

How many times I have seen posts of Americans travelling to Europe on a "scouting expedition" (always the war general imagery, as if conquering whole parts in a military campaign.). They have "narrowed things down" to France, Spain, or Portugal, none of which they have visited before, and have 10 days to find a city or region that "feels like their new home," and they are bringing 2 kids, an ancient granny in a wheelchair, an incontinent bull mastiff and a blind poodle/Jack Russell mix... And they are convinced they can get everywhere by public transportation, or they will rent a mammoth van (and will have have any trouble finding street parking in the city centers?) Sweet Jesus, what they describe is like a circus coming to town, and of course they want to scout 4 or 5 cities or regions in each of the 3 countries in 10 days, counting arrival and departure days.

They wouldn't have time enough to barely set foot in 10, 12, 15 cities in 10 days, but goddamnit they've got a plan.

Just binge several international house hunters. That’s what I did before I moved.

R237 if I could, I would buy you a drink.

Kisses!

Somewhere like Stoupa in the Peloponnese.

Brits are the opposite to Americans. We vacation in the place where we eventually buy a house for YEARS so we get to know it, and try other countries too. But with thousands of cheap two hour flights to Europe and six weeks off per year, I guess it's easier.

^ Isn't Spain about to charge Brits, and other NON-EU residents 100% tax on houses R241, mostly because the Brits were gobbling places up for income making vacation rentals and causing a housing shortage?

Have been thinking a lot about it.

Mexico might be the easiest, but there's a limited number of cities that would work.

Several spots in Europe are attractive, but if Russia goes on the warpath, we'd be much closer there to bombings and carnage than we would in North America.

There is no ideal choice.

[quote]Several spots in Europe are attractive, but if Russia goes on the warpath, we'd be much closer there to bombings and carnage than we would in North America.

The world's billionaires have decided New Zealand is the place to be when it all falls apart.

R242: The proposed 100% tax is for non-residents, meaning absentee investors who do not live in Spain.

Live in Spain as a resident (>183 days per year) of the house or apartment you bought and there's no new tax.

Live in Spain as a resident (>183 days per year) outside the house or apartment you bought and you still are not subject to a special tax.

Live in the EU outside Spain and you are still free to invest in income property without being subject to a special tax.

The special tax affects only property investors who live outside the EU -- as disincentive to absentee property speculation.

I want to live in an English village like the ones on Midsomer Murders.

I’m sure the charm (and the NHS) will outweigh the danger.

[quote]I want to live in an English village like the ones on Midsomer Murders.

I would too.

OT - was Tom Barnaby the worst detective ever? At least three people died in every episode before he figured out whodunit.

Back to normal programming.

What an about a nice island in the Caribbean or the Pacific?

You've really done your research, haven't you, R248?

Costa Rica or Uruguay. There. I said it.

I would go to either of those countries, R250, but they're too expensive for me.

R251, I thought they were pretty inexpensive compared to us.

Sure we go to these countries and then bitch because they have issues with clean, drinkable water and their electricity is sketchy and their WiFi is eve worse. If you decide to go to a foreign country just keep in mind that the efficiencies we take for granted here are not so great in other places and I am including Europe in that criticism not just South or Central America.

R252, when I was in Panama City, I talked to a guy from Costa Rica (in English -- his English was excellent and he told me he learned it in school) about how expensive it was there. He told me so many foreigners moved there that Costa Ricans can barely afford to live there anymore. I have a biker buddy who moved there in January, but I haven't heard from him. He told me before he left that if you live in a small town in the middle of nowhere, it's not too bad. But his wife is from Costa Rica and they moved down to her home there, so it's kind of irrelevant. I need to text him and see how he's doing.

[quote]If you decide to go to a foreign country just keep in mind that the efficiencies we take for granted here are not so great in other places and I am including Europe in that criticism not just South or Central America.

Thanks for the helpful advice, R253. It's so primitive here in Europe: 10GB internet, unlimited calls and data on 2 mobile phones, 140 TV channels with Netflix & Amazon & Max, all for €70 a month. Never once with an interruption in years, not even for seconds; nor any blip in electricity, nor water.

R253 has never left his home town. Ever.

"Yes, but in Europe...".

The immediate response from the average untraveled DLer.

People who talk about the continent of Europe in blanket terms are dumb as mud.

I've travelled to 20 countries in Europe and not encountered issues with the electricity in any of them. The only place that had power cuts every day was Turkey, which is in Asia.

R259 I agree. I've been to nearly every country in western Europe at least once and many of the countries that were part of the Warsaw Pact. That includes both before and after the end of the Cold War. Basic infrastructure is just as good, if not better, than in the US. Certainly the mass transit systems in most medium to larger cities in Europe are superior. Wifi and mobile service varies by region, but as a whole, Europe is certainly not inferior to the US. The only thing that I've encountered that might frustrate some Americans is the bureaucracy. That isn't something likely to affect a tourist, but if you are getting a visa for long term stay or are student, it can be a bit much. Dealing with setting up services can take longer than in the US. I get the feeling that everyone I speak with just wants to turf it off to the next person.

[quote]If you decide to go to a foreign country just keep in mind that the efficiencies we take for granted here are not so great in other places and I am including Europe

Europe has far better infrastructure, public facilities, public services, roads and public transport, water system, energy grid and communications than the US does R253. You really don't know what you're talking about.

I lived in Italy for decades and have never had some of the problems I have now that I'm back in the US. Our power went out again last week. It often does when winds are high because we have power lines on telephone poles. And if the internet goes out, just try talking to Comcast for answers. Beauracracy? Try speaking with Social Security. Try getting an appointment with a doctor or a specialist. And I'm in New Jersey, one of the wealthiest states.

The only thing I think that's superior here is Amazon deliveries. Everything else sucks.

Amazon deliveries are perfect in London. As long as you pay £8.99 a month for Prime, many items arrive the same day you order them.

That's exactly what I told myself about living in Panama, R262. So -- in Panama, sometimes there's no water for a few days, if you live in a rural area. Here in [bold]my[/bold] rural area in FL, some multi-state utility bought the local water company, and once every month or two since then, there's a "boil water" notice that goes on for three or four days. There are some dirt roads in rural Panama that are tough to drive on. Where I live now, there are sand roads all over the place, and I've been stuck in them at least three or four times. Once I even had to call a tow truck because my truck got wedged into the sides of a road and no one could get me out. Sometimes, the power goes down for days, the last time during Hurricane Milton; but I've had my power go off for 8 straight days after a storm. In the Florida heat. My Wifi (Spectrum) also goes down for days at a time during a hurricane, and other storms as well.

Panama? Hell, I'm already used to it.

First World country indeed.

Jakarta Indonesia had streetcars and gaslights before most of the American South had electricity or plumbing. Indeed at the time of World War II most of the South had neither, although much work had been done during the New Deal.

[quote]If you decide to go to a foreign country just keep in mind that the efficiencies we take for granted here are not so great in other places and I am including Europe

You learn more about what being an American is living somewhere else than you do living in America. That has been my experience. There are certain ideas surrounding productivity that we grow up with that aren't really as important elsewhere. American's love efficiency. We live by "Seize the Day," "Make the Most of it" and we love multi-tasking and to do lists. That's who we are culturally. And I think it's that part of us that has the most difficulty when adjusting to other places that don't necessarily subscribe to that idea. Our patience is very short when things that should be working don't work.

I say living in Italy, no matter how hard you try to adjust to their way of doing things, it will always trip you up. I have gotten used to doing things I need to do in the morning before 1pm OR after 4pm. It's a real thing. But even with that, stores will have odd hours, odd days off like closed every Tuesday. You have to remember which days your favorite places are open and the hours they operate by. Then you have to remember when they go on vacation. Even now in winter a lot of stores are on "In Ferie" on vacation. When it comes to late July, August, you might as well forget about it.

However I DID just order some Starbucks and Aquafresh on Amazon and it will be here tomorrow, delivered to the Tabbachi around the corner. I just have to remember the Tabbachi closes 1-3:30.

Plus all that delicious Italian cock R266.

This guy has an interesting take as an American on how Americans are seen around the world. He has lived in Amsterdam for eight years now.

[quote]There are certain ideas surrounding productivity that we grow up with that aren't really as important elsewhere. Americans love efficiency. We live by "Seize the Day," "Make the Most of it" and we love multi-tasking and to do lists. That's who we are culturally. And I think it's that part of us that has the most difficulty when adjusting to other places that don't necessarily subscribe to that idea. Our patience is very short when things that should be working don't work.

[quote]I have gotten used to doing things I need to do in the morning before 1pm OR after 4pm. It's a real thing. But even with that, stores will have odd hours, odd days off like closed every Tuesday. You have to remember which days your favorite places are open and the hours they operate by. Then you have to remember when they go on vacation.

I would say that Americans love [bold]their idea[/bold] of efficiency. It's just different. Some aspects of daily like and bureaucratic tasks are much simpler, for others you wonder 'why on earth do they make a simple thing complicated?' But it would be nuts to that everything American functioned like a clock with optimum ease and efficiency. If you cleave to the idea that Americans with their to-do lists and constant banter about how very fucking busy they, always, are more efficient, or to the idea that it would be lazy to take a few hours off in the afternoon and then return to work later, or to the idea that Italian coffee is no match for Starbucks coffee delivered by Amazon, then of course you will suffer disappointment.

Like the subject of the thread 'Moronic Cuban American moves family to Spain...' you either adjust or fight a battle you are bound to lose. To read discussion boards of American Expats, you might think that many immigrants from the US spend their days trying in desperation to find Count Chocula cereal, or Shake-n-Bake Seasoned Bread Crumbs, or Kraft Mozzarella String Cheese in a bag.... The bed sizes are different, the sheet sizes are different, the appliances are different, the business hours are different, the holidays are different... There's not fucking much you can do about those things. And yet it doesn't seem to stop natives from doing what they need or want to do. They don't complain about business hours the ways Americans don't complain that US banks often have longer hours for drive-in window operations, or that banks celebrate more holidays than many businesses, or that federal and state governments and private businesses have different holiday schedules. Or they cite 'efficiency' and 'getting things done' while conveniently forgetting about the hell that is a Department of Motor Vehicles in most states.

I think you missed the point R269. I am not complaining about anything. I am not clinging to an American way of life except for things I find to be just better in the States than here - like Reynolds and Saran Wrap, ha!. But until you have actually lived it, I don't think there is not much you can say about what you would or wouldn't do as American abroad. I live here, I spend all my time here, I pay taxes here, I travel here, eat the food, support the local economy, have learned the language and have made friends here. If I want some JIF creamy peanut butter and Welches Grape in my suit case when I come from the States - sue me.

And the efficiency aspect of the American culture was something Italians told ME they were jealous of. That is one thing they do admire about Americans, their time management and ability to get shit done. I a not saying they are going to change who they are. But that is something they admire about us. Italians will talk about a subject for three hours and get nothing done about it - they will tell you that themselves.

Like I said, I have been here four years, I have paid and am still paying my dues, diligently. So no one can really come for me for being a "Moronic American" disillusioned abroad.

Americans WERE efficient. But the rise of the billionaire class has torpedoed the "work ethic" that once reigned supreme. Nobody careas anymore about working, and they shouldn't. Until these criminals are brough to heel and made to pay their fair share, American "capitalism" is just as perverse and dead-end as communism was.

JFC - importing Starbucks to Italy via Amazon.

Unbelievable,

Imagine Starbucks in Italy. Who the fuck would drink such low rent garbage coffee? And in ITALY!

“HATED the coffee - thank God for Amazon and Starbucks!”.

R273 You don't have to imagine too hard. The first Starbucks to open in Italy was in Milan in 2018. They now have them in several cities, including Rome. If you think only Americans go there, think again.

The one remnant of American 'work ethic' and 'efficiency' and 'ambition' is to talk about work as though it were the most important thing in life. To talk about work as though it defined a person, told you all you need to know. To talk about work as though the "TPS reports" really mattered,, as though the whole enterprise would fall to pieces if Jenny in Records Retention were to take more than 4 days in a row away.. Americans are very fucking mouthy about work and will talk your ears off about it as though you care, or as though their job really matters beyond the splash of a raindrop in the sea. Americans can be quite quick to tell you how productive they are and how lazy the rest of the world is. But a country bursting with Karens has even blown to bits the concept of the customer is always right -- that's a mere shadow of the universal truth it used to be.

So of course when some small thing functions a bit differently in another country, it's just too bad, "why can't they be more American?"

Starbucks coffee is burnt, yes literally.

[quote]HATED the coffee - thank God for Amazon and Starbucks!

Starbucks is the only option when it comes to ground American Drip coffee or Filtered coffee that I have found. One restaurant here that has brunch serves Dunkn Donuts coffee, but I don't know where they get it. There are three Starbucks in Florence alone. At least three or four in Rome. They are all over the country.

There are many things I like about Italian culture. The caffe culture is not one of them. I enjoy sitting with a mug of something and enjoying it slowly, gathering my thoughts. Un Caffe is like medicine, it's like a shot. People get together with friends over Caffe but the thing is done in 30 seconds flat, what are you gonna do then, order another? You'll be kicking through the drywall the rest of the day. You can poo poo ground coffee all you like. I know I am not the only one who lives here who has an American coffee machine at home. I enjoy a CUP of coffee in the morning and not a shot. Italians do not know how to do breakfast, period... It's just dessert and coffee medicine.

I will have un caffe dopo la cena con un digestivo. But that is about it. And I am definitely not taking the time to make it in the morning. You people watch too many instagram videos on "la dolce vita,' reminiscing on the time you faked your way through enjoying un caffe while siting somewhere on your Italian vacation. Most Italians have Nespresso machines anyway.

[quote] The first Starbucks to open in Italy was in Milan in 2018. They now have them in several cities, including Rome. If you think only Americans go there, think again.

Locals probably go there to look at the American tourists ordering Oleatos (thinking it's "authentic") and laugh at them.

R278

[quote]The caffe culture is not one of them. I enjoy sitting with a mug of something and enjoying it slowly, gathering my thoughts.

So dumb.

If you want to "linger over coffee" you order a caffè Americano. Espresso + hot water + a big cup. That thick rich chocolatey espresso as a base makes a coffee so superior to any coffee I get here in the states. AND my favorite places always have two or three daily newspapers to look through.

Also, there is the cappuccino.

The caffe culture is one of the great joys of living in Italy. In my small city you constantly run into a friend and pop into a coffee bar. I wind up having a few during the day, rarely alone or planned. God how I miss it.

[quote]I say living in Italy, no matter how hard you try to adjust to their way of doing things, it will always trip you up. I have gotten used to doing things I need to do in the morning before 1pm OR after 4pm. It's a real thing. But even with that, stores will have odd hours, odd days off like closed every Tuesday. You have to remember which days your favorite places are open and the hours they operate by. Then you have to remember when they go on vacation. Even now in winter a lot of stores are on "In Ferie" on vacation. When it comes to late July, August, you might as well forget about it.

I love it. Love it. Love it. Small independently owned shops. Owner operated. Often family run. And streets lined with shops and locales. So much of that has vanished in the US.

Lunch with family is sacred in Italy. More so in the past. It was much more common when I first moved there 42 years ago. Like the siesta in Spain. So yes, there is la chiusura... but it serves an important cultural purpose. La dolce vita is/was a real thing.

This thread took an odd turn...

I'd love to move to NZ but, they don't allow pet birds. And, I don't have enough money for an investor visa so I'd probably have to open a business or something first.

[quote]If you want to "linger over coffee" you order a caffè Americano

We are completely allowed to like different things and not be considered dumb r281. An Americano served out in Italy is not anywhere near the size of a cup of coffee. I like a cup of ground, filtered coffee. Get over it. I can also say you are waxing a bit poetic by calling the Caffe culture one of the great joys. It exists, yes, but I much prefer the aperitivo culture to the caffe culture. At least you're getting a full ass drink.

[quote]Lunch with family is sacred in Italy.

Again, waxing poetic. The shopowner is probably jacking off in the back room to his phone with the gate down because it's the only privacy he will get in his life that entire day. I kid. Living in Italy is amazing. But it is far too easy to turn it into some romanticized Under the Tuscan Sun bullshit - like you'll be sitting at caffes all day. No you're not. I see people selling this lie on Instagram all the time. There is a lot of reality they are leaving out, because they have to really validate their choices by making you envy them. You are basically living your same life except with less stress in a much better and more beautiful setting.

[quote]At least you're getting a full ass drink.

Typically American.

The cost of a coffee (that tastes like burnt rope) at my local diner is $3.50. With tax and tip it gets close to 5 dollars. Yes there are refills. quantity over quality. Who knows what it would be at a Starbucks.

The cost of a cafe Americano at my nearest coffee bar in Italy is a little over a dollar. No tax. No tip. Elegant setting. Well groomed customers.

It'll take Italy.

[QUOTE] AND my favorite places always have two or three daily newspapers to look through.

Sad that you can't afford to buy your own newspapers.

No fucking where.

R287 and the cost of a nice hot mug of coffee from my Russell Hobbs coffee machine while sitting in my PJs in my 15th century refurbished Florentine apartment with repainted ceilings (featured here on DL previously) and watching sexy Massamiliano Ossini and Daniela Ferolla on Unomattina is practically free.

[quote]Typically American.

That fact that I one, have a passport and two, have an Italian Visa (permesso di soggiorno) quickly disproves that. There is nothing typical about that, even in this niche thread on DL. Everyone talks about it, but I actually did it. That is very atypical American .

Hawaii

Yeah that would be nice R291.

R290 Ew. Just...everything about your post--ew.

[Typical American]

[quote]That fact that I one, have a passport and two, have an Italian Visa (permesso di soggiorno) quickly disproves that.

Before you get too very fancy about your U.S. passport, R290, 51% of Americans had passports in 2024, up from 46% in 2023 and 30% in 2008 and just 3% in 1989. It's not 1989 or even 2008. The percentage of passports in the U.S: has been on a long rise and if the figure is not as ubiquitous as the number of Americans who have an asshole, the percentage now matches that of the Americans who are assholes and vote for assholes.

Only an American would sit in their apartment drinking coffee out of a Russell Hobbs coffee machine in the morning in Italy of all places. At least buy a fucking Moka.

Just realizing-won’t be long before the trump/musk machine will be taunting us right here where we live-right here on Datalounge.

R294, Obviously irony is completely lost on you. Sitting in my pyjamas drinking from a Russell Hobbs? Russel Hobbs is the equivalent of Hamilton Beach appliances. The name alone should give that away.

And can you look up the number of Americans who have Visas to live in the EU, let alone Permessi di Soggiorni? I'll still keep my "Fancy" card, thank you.

"Only an American would sit in their apartment drinking coffee out of a Russell Hobbs coffee machine in the morning in Italy of all places. At least buy a fucking Moka."

I think you have missed the entire conversation that has really taken TOO much time from this thread. But I don't like caffe from a Moka. I'm not ONLY an American, I am an Expat! And I am not on vacation, I live here. So I'll have a mug of coffee on my couch in the morning IF I want. Italy is always outside and I am in it every single day. BTW, Le Vespe and The Rooster and Wild Buns (very cute young gay owner) are the three places in Florence that I have come across where it's easy to get Drip Coffee or Caffe Filtro. Even Starbucks I think makes Americani.

R297 has crawled so far up her own insufferable ass, I fear she'll never find her way out.

[quote]And can you look up the number of Americans who have Visas to live in the EU, let alone Permessi di Soggiorni?

I do.

Well, if you want to have a pissing contest...

The difference with me is that I speak Italian fluently. Started an internet company there 25 years ago that still thrives. Had my own advertising agency. Led design studios of luxury products. Had a photography book (written in Italian) published by the Region of Tuscany. Had shows of my work. And a lot more.

In other words, unlike you, I'm an American who lived and worked as an actual Italian.

But do go on.

How many DLers living in Italy are there? I think I've lost count.

All I remember is one youngish black man who posted some nice photos on DL. He was learning Italian.

Are there more?

I wish you two would take it outside.

So many whores on this thread.

R290 I'm picturing you reclining on your West Elm couch, under the repainted ceiling of your 15th century Florentine apartment in your pale blue Mr Porter pyjamas - "freshly laundered by Annunziata!, she's such a dear" - daintily sipping from your Dean & Deluca mug of coffee while admiring your Russell Hobbs coffee maker which is sitting on its plinth in the middle of the room, bathed in the light of some tasteful pin-spotting.

R290 - you've arrived!

The “I live in bella Italia” troll needs to give it a rest.

For a change of subject...

Irish citizenship applications rose 10% last year and

[quote]In 2024, a record 31,825 Americans applied for Irish citizenship, marking a significant 10% increase from the previous year. The surge in applications reflects the growing political, economic, and personal factors driving U.S. citizens to seek Irish passports. The trend is not new but has intensified in recent years, with 2024 seeing the largest spike, particularly following Donald Trump’s re-election.

[quote] November Surge

[quote]The most notable surge in applications occurred in November 2024, when 3,692 people applied for Irish citizenship—the highest monthly total in a decade. This coincided with Trump’s re-election, prompting many applicants to seek an "exit strategy" due to concerns over his policies. Immigration lawyers have also seen a significant uptick in inquiries about relocating abroad, as more Americans express the desire to leave the U.S. and obtain European Union access through Irish citizenship.

"The November Surge" is 40% higher than the average monthly figure for 2024, but it does represent actual applications (rather than inquiries or Google searches) and the application requires some preparation and assembling of vital records. Citizenship is granted automatically in the case of an Irish parent, for one or more Irish grandparents, the review process can take up to 30 months once various archival birth, death, and marriage certificates of your parents and grandparents are submitted, or, more specially, based on descent or Irish association, "at the discretion of the Minister for Justice and Equality."

What were we talking about?

From Travel + Leisure, a list of 7 countries that have various incentive programs to encourage immigration under specific criteria, mostly centered around areas of population loss and/or small business development.

The countries: Ireland, Italy, Chile, Japan, Croatia, Switzerland, and Spain

Also from T+L, a specific program for those who would agree to move to one specific town in Italy, an example of one of many programs.

I will only move to a country that has Costco's. Spain is looking pretty good...

I'd love to move to Scotland, but they don't allow retiree emigrees as permanent residents.

R310 Scotland doesn't have enough sunny days for me.

R297 Sounds like that little Quadroon Lengua Latina gay comedian, the one that changed her name, she definitely has her head up her butt, husband is very drab and pedestrian looking.

No r312, that’s not me.

I’m in Torino this weekend and just missed the torrential rain in Florence. There was no flooding in Centro but pray for the families just outside, like in Scandicci, that are being rescued.

That's very cool R308. I would do that. I love Italy and I love yummy Italian cock. I'm pretty sure there's a movie about doing something like that.

It's a small industry, churning out those films. Here's the (maybe) latest but not last

Watching news video of the floods in Florence. Terrible. Italy also has earthquakes. The government is moving to the Right. No thanks.

Fortunately the floods are outside of Florence center, in the burbs. Italy has floods, mudslides, earthquakes. Italy has three active volcanos as well. But as far as the government going to the right, R316, it is nothing like it is in America right now. And at least "fake Christianity" isn't tied into it either, legislating from moral grounds. It's crazy how Italy feels 10x less religious than America does, and the Vatican is in the center of it. But no one talks about God or Jesus on Television OR in politics really.

I can barely walk. How in the hell am I gonna move?? My bf almost has to wipe my asshole!

You know. Talk about leaving and actually leaving are way different. We have become accustomed to efficiencies here like our WiFi. Or Electricity, and plenty of running water with great water pressure. Many of us have cars. And unless you live in a big city like NYC most cities don't have subways or train travel and in Europe it is the opposite. I'm just thinking about it. there would be a lot of things different and you'd have to adjust. it's one thing to go on vacation for a week or two. But until you actually live somewhere, and you have to actually ask to make sure the building has air conditioning or a lift (elevator) I mean it's a whole different thing.

Most of the U.S. is more primitive than European cities.

I am moving to Puerto Vallarta. Seriously. I have friends there, lots of expats, plenty to do. I have no intention of walking the beach alone at night, don’t worry. I only have a few years left, so why not be warm and relaxed?

If you're looking at Europe the big cities may be efficient and modern, but they're also expensive. moving to smaller cities and suburb you lose a lot of efficiency.

That's absolutely untrue R322. The whole of western Europe has much better public infrastructure, public services, public transport systems, communications and technology, water, energy than the US. I lived in Europe for years and I know this from first hand experience. That's because they spend their money on their people which is something which I think we can all agree that the US does not do and this is coming to light more and more.

Also - all large cities anywhere in the world are expensive. Expensive in the US, Europe, Asia, Australasia etc. Everywhere.

I don't know why people in this thread are trying to push that Europe is some kind of backwards hell hole which is unliveable. Europe is light years ahead of the US.

I wish I could join you R321! Puerto Vallarta looks absolutely gorgeous and I'm with you on the warm weather. Good luck.

[quote]We have become accustomed to efficiencies here like our WiFi. Or Electricity, and plenty of running water with great water pressure. Many of us have cars.

What the fuck are you on about, with your American "efficiencies"?

I can bravely report from the dangerous front lines of primitive Europe that they do indeed have electricity. And running water (with great water pressure.) And air conditioning (and if the house or apartment doesn't have it already, it's easily added at a cost low enough to leave an American in disbelief).

And WiFi. I have 1 gigabyte service, with unlimited calls, data, and roaming for 2 mobile phones, and TV service with 300+ channels plus on demand films and series, Netflix, Amazon Prime Video, and Maxx and some film streaming channels, all for €67 ($73) a month. In 6 years, not one blink in the electricity, wifi, water, gas services. I had the heating/air conditioning serviced at 5 years and 90 minutes of adjustments and thorough cleaning was €50. Most systems, even older ones, are linked to phone apps so you can adjust as your schedule changes or as you return home from a holiday.

And I live in a city as old as Rome, above and below ground, where parking is >90% underground and the center is pedestrianized, where you can buy the things you need within a couple blocks of your house or apartment. At the moment there is not one unoccupied commercial space in the entire, large center. But if you wanted to shop at a Costco or a mega-supermarket, or even a shopping mall, the option exists, but outside the center. And you could take a bus, fast, efficient, and clean.

This American notion of its homegrown luxuries and 'efficiencies' in contrast to primitive living conditions, cobbled together utilities, and hardship and rationbooks persists in the minds of Americans, carried over from WWII. It's nuts to think "USA #1" when it's increasingly #1 only in embarrassing statistics.

*in contrast to European

There is a particular demographic of the DL who by default see the country of "Europe" as second to the USA in every way, despite not having visited any of the 44 countries of the continent of Europe, or anywhere outside their home state, or their home town, which they have never left.

R324 is right about the cost of wifi. Once you see how much you can get home Internet, two phones and cable bundled for in Europe, you will feel absolutely used and disgusted by how much you paid for it in the States.

My list keeps expanding as I lower my expectations. But it’s just fantasy. Leaving really isn’t an option for many of us working people.

Since this thread was first posted in February the USA has gotten scarier and more insane by the day. It feels depressing and increasingly oppressive to me. I envy those of you who don’t have to live here. Life goes on I know, but it’s weird to me just doing the mundane things and people at work casually chatting about sports or their new shoes while we’re in the middle of a coup changing from a democracy to a theocratic dictatorship run by unqualified insane people. It’s an ominous feeling, like what are they going to do next and to who.

Great post R328. I watched an excellent interview with Anne Applebaum the other day. If you don't know her I highly recommend checking her out. She's a world renowned historian, writer and expert on Russia and on authoritarian dictatorships around the world. She's also a Pulitzer-prize winner - amongst a lot of other prestigious awards. She knows what she's talking about. It's always very sobering but enlightening hearing what she has to say. During the interview, she was asked how people would know it was time to leave the US. Her response was; "When the arrests and killings start". If anybody knows - it's Anne Applebaum.

The arrests have started. They've started with the low-hanging fruit to see what they can get away with.

It seems hysterical and like the twilight zone - but this is really happening.

You want to get out before the arrests and killing starts.

Once they started, it will become far more difficult to leave.

I really feel sorry for all of you US DL'ers (well, not for Greg and TeaCake)

R330 - did you see my post before you posted that? If not - that's very spooky as we both said the same thing.

The arrests have already started.

You are my twin across the big pond, R331!

We'll all have to say the Pledge: "I pledge allegiance to the Trump of the United States of America..."

As an Expat here, can you guys tell me what it actually feels like in the United States now? Because despite what people say, even living abroad, as an American, you feel the anxiety. You really can't escape, because what goes on in the United States makes news in every part of the globe. But I am just wondering if it is much more intense living there? I lived in NYC for many years before moving out of the country. And if you were to go by what people on here say about the city now, I was expecting a hellscape when I returned. It was actually better than when I left it just shorty after Covid. SO, it's hard to judge exactly how bad it might be now in the United States, people's words and fears vs. the everyday reality.

^ It feels like 1929 Berlin. Fabulous/Ominous. The City is better/safer than ever but the energy has changed. You see fear in the faces of immigrants and nearly every family in NY receives income from some program or pension. NYC is a delicate ecosystem and things could become chaotic quickly. Everyone should have a plan b c or just fucking d.

Everyone there will have moved here.

The first 10 minutes of Maddow last night showed massive protests against Putin in Serbia, Romania, Hungary and smaller protests from white people all over the US at Tesla dealerships who just found out that they fucked up. My 75 yo cousin who never protested anything in his life and has nothing to lose except his principles joined a protest. This is a shift.

We need CNN in the Ohio diner to tell us how the leopard ate their faces.

The window on moving is slowly closing. Other countries, the real estate is getting more expensive. The rules are tightening up. And here in the USA they will make moving out of the country very disadvantageous.

^^^I knew that was coming. I can visualize a day when Trump won't let anyone leave the country, just like the former USSR, and when no other country will take us.

Spain, I can get citizenship. Probably Spain.

There's a Galician proverb that says, " You never know where your bones will end up." Moving away from the US is a final trip for many of us.

Well, don't wait around to get started on your Spanish citizenship R339. It takes time and soon there will be a logjam of applications.

Why doesn't anyone talk about moving to Canada? Or is it because it will be annexed soon?

R338 I see him "punishing ex pats financially. Like, if you leave you can't get Social Security even though it's yours and you earned it. The other thing happening right now is our stock market and our dollar are in trouble. All I am saying is if you're seriously thinking about leaving, get going. Don't dither. Find out what the requirements are for vias, figure out how to get a job overseas and get going. You don't have to be wealthy. Just determined.

About ten years ago I was considering retiring to Italy. I lived in Italy as a child and spoke the language fluently, so it shouldn't be too difficult to pick it up again after a month or two of immersion.

On further consideration, I decided against it. I don't have enough income to live in a large city, so it would need to be a smaller area. Abruzzo sounds nice, although they have earthquakes and the expat community sounds a bit too large for my taste. But the main reason I decided against it is being a single shy old lady, and I would not have the stamina to be able to drive there, where the public transportation is not very good in the mid-size towns.

I was also worried about the right-wing politics, but little did I know about what would happen here...

Tell you something to consider. Our food safety, our environmental protections, clean water, clean air, etc.? All going to go to hell. So will the FDA and the CDC. So consider that. It is not just the political climate of these Neo Nazis. It is what these policies are already doing to our country. The man hasn't even had 100 days in office and imagining what things will be like in two years or four years gives me agita!

I can see that too, R341. In fact, there are hundreds of nightmare scenarios roiling in my brain.

But I'm getting that visa in Panama. I already paid for it, so I might as well. Even if I come back here to my ratty trailer to live (which would be much cheaper than living in Panama), I know I have a place to escape to -- if I can.

My relationship with this professor in Japan is getting serious, thank god, a very pleasant place for an introvert like me to live.

I know several people considering Panama.

R342, where do you live now? I am not sure how much you think living in a big city would be? Your major expense is rent. After that it is pretty cheap - groceries, transport, entertainment. Medical is pretty much free in comparison. So you could still live in the major city in Europe and live comfortably. Check out Lucca. It is surrounded by a wall that they have turned into a walkable park around the city. The cultural events are always happening. Actually I just got tickets to go see the Pet Shop Boys there this July. Lucca is kind of on the tourist radar, but mostly not. It's in Tuscany and about 25 minutes from the Tuscan beaches of Viareggio and Forte dei Marmi.

Also at least in Italy, if you plan in advance, you can hop on a high speed train, about $40 round trip and go to Milan for the day, or shoot down to Rome or Naples. I had never been to Torino, and went this weekend. Nice, inexpensive two day trip to somewhere else beautiful and fun. $500 bucks for everything can feel like a week long vacation. It doesn't cost money like it does in the States to travel somewhere.

I vote for Ms. QS @ R342 to go to Italy! At least, plan a vay-cay there and see how you like it. Unless you're really broke, how can it hurt?

I'm seriously considering riding my motorcycle to Panama from FL when I actually move there. That's what I'm sayin' Ms. QS -- have one last great adventure!

What happens when Panama is invaded? Not sure how popular you'll be there...

I have faith in the Panamanian people, R349.

I just met a Panamanian woman the other day who lives 2 miles down the road from me, and I asked her about Trump's designs on Panama. She said, with dignity, "That land belongs to us. We won't let him take it."

And let me tell you another story. When I was there submitting my visa paperwork, I took Ubers everywhere, and I started conversations with every single driver in my bad Spanish (I have to practice!). I told one driver that I was very sorry about what my country had done to his (this was in the beginning of January, before Trump's inauguration), and I wanted to apologize. He said, smiling, "That was a long time ago and we don't think about it anymore. People in Panama love everybody!"

And I found that to be true.

Of course. you never know what the giant orange will do, so I am more than prepared to roll with the punches.

Norway. Switzerland. Like that.

Montenegro. Croatia.

I would go to Argentina but it's in the grip of the Trumpocene

But the dollar is so strong there, r353.

The dollar is getting weaker and it is deliberate. Musk and Trump are trying to create catastrophe And the Right world wide is part of a scheme to inflate Bitcoin Something bad is going on.

The dollar getting weaker is not a catastrophe. The strategic crypto reserve is a naked theft though.

Any thoughts on Sicily, R347?

R357, as an American, I wouldn't move to Sicily unless you are ready to retire, retire. They country starts breaking down once you get south of Rome. Americans are just used to certain levels of service, have certain expectations. Vacationing is different from living. If you want a very quiet, small town life dealing with people and things moving very slowly or not at all, then maybe Sicily. But I even moved from Rome to Florence and notice a big difference in just every day services - transportation, garbage pick up, etc. The garbage situation in Rome drove me crazy just because it made absolutely no sense.

By the way, my husband actually teaches here at certain American university programs. We just went to renew our Tessera Sanitaria (social medical insurance) today and because he works and pays into the system, both of us received it for free. Meaning we didn't;t have to pay a dime to receive it. That is a huge difference in quality of life. Of course you can pay for private doctors, (which honestly are about the same price as in the States) with a co-pay, or you can get the free medical care. Emergencies are always free. You pay for nothing and prescriptions are minimal if not free.

Sicily has history, culture, incredible food, but it feels like a place that is stuck in time and stagnating. Montenegro is gorgeous, feels up and coming, lots of new development, but in terms of food, culture, shopping... it's very limited. It's also full of Russians. Both places get packed along the coast and unbearably hot in summer.

Croatia seems more developed and quite appealing - if you have the money... it's getting pricey there.

Greece? I loved it there as a tourist, but it seems they have their own problems what with the recent Athens riot and all. Thailand I believe is pretty easy for expats to move to, but not really my cup of tea. Both can be hot as hell. The English speaking countries would be easier culturally, but they are the hardest ones for Americans to get residency in.

Many years ago, I was in Bangkok on New Year's Even and at midnight it was 98 degrees Fahrenheit. Blehhhh

Were you expecting snow, R361? It’s in the tropics FFS.

No sindont want to live outside

[quote]Sicily has history, culture, incredible food, but it feels like a place that is stuck in time

And let's hope it stays that way.

[quote]And let me tell you another story. When I was there submitting my visa paperwork, I took Ubers everywhere, and I started conversations with every single driver in my bad Spanish (I have to practice!). I told one driver that I was very sorry about what my country had done to his (this was in the beginning of January, before Trump's inauguration), and I wanted to apologize. He said, smiling, "That was a long time ago and we don't think about it anymore. People in Panama love everybody!"

Ah... the clueless Americans...

[quote]...as an American, I wouldn't move to Sicily unless you are ready to retire, retire. They country starts breaking down once you get south of Rome. Americans are just used to certain levels of service, have certain expectations.

[quote]Sicily has history, culture, incredible food, but it feels like a place that is stuck in time

The idea that Italy "starts breaking down once you get past Rome" just seems a continuation of the ancient Latin observation that "everything south of Rome is Africa."

I don't agree at all. Much as I like the north, the South has richness and eccentricity and beautiful chaos.

Goethe said it better than me:

[quote]To have seen Italy without having seen Sicily is not to have seen Italy at all, for Sicily is the clue to everything.

I really have no desire to live in Mexico, Central, or South America. Unless they still have Peace Corp or something. It just sounds awful. There is no money for anything else.

R365, that might sound beautiful in literature or on a vacation. I have been to parts of Sicily. It's massive by the way. I have been to Ortigia and Taormina. Ortigia is beautiful yes, decadent beautiful decay, rich architecture, colors. But I am talking about everyday life that MOST Americans are used to, especially here on Datalounge. Unless you are really ready to lead a completely different, much slower lifestyle, I wouldn't consider Sicily. Amazon still ships there - which you'll need July through August when the country shuts down. They have a garbage issue (outside the major tourist places) as well that is sometimes hard to wrap your head around.

And little as it is talked about, Italy is very much like America in that their is a huge divide culturally between the North and the South. The North, as the industrial and money center, looks down on the South. People from the south have a very hard time finding work outside of certain industries in the North. There is a very pronounced prejudice and Italians will tell you as much. And from my personal experience, life in the North just moves at a pace that most Americans would be comfortable with.

r340, it's actually not that easy to move to Canada.

Our resident clueless American in Italy understands nothing.

[quote] People from the south have a very hard time finding work outside of certain industries in the North.

That is such bullshit. OMG.

Stole my milk!

[quote]But I am talking about everyday life that MOST Americans are used to, especially here on Datalounge. Unless you are really ready to lead a completely different, much slower lifestyle, I wouldn't consider Sicily. Amazon still ships there - which you'll need July through August when the country shuts down.

[quote]And from my personal experience, life in the North just moves at a pace that most Americans would be comfortable with.

If you want all the ways and things of quotidian American life, if you want your Amazon with a .com instead of the different selection at .it, and if you hate Italian food, and Italian coffee, and the fit of Italian clothes, and Italian customs, and Italian hours, there's an easy solution. Look elsewhere.

Most Americans, north and south, are dumber than a sack of dirt. Who cares what most Americans want? You need only turn on your television if you want to keep up with that. And who would want to know an American who moved to another country only to find the most American part of it and then set about trying to replicate all his American customs and comforts?

.

[quote] Unless you are really ready to lead a completely different, much slower lifestyle, I wouldn't consider Sicily.

Uh...that's probably the major reason people want to move to a country like Italy.

Before moving to a small city in Italy where I lived for decades, I lived years in the Tuscan countryside. Slow and wonderful.

Back to Skull Island.

[quote] then set about trying to replicate all his American customs and comforts?

What a lot of people would like right now is simply "like the US, but without the fascism."

If you’re ever down on your knees - I’ll be gone

If you’re ever playing with yourself dong - I’ll be gone

If you’re ever trying to get off - I’ll get lost.

Yeah, the fascism sucks, but I’m not that much more thrilled about the US under democratic but right-wing rule either.

Fuckin fuckin Dixon!

[quote]That is such bullshit. OMG.

You're right 369, that was a bit much. It's not that they have trouble finding work, it's just that they are seen as country bumpkins. A friend of mine is from Molise, Campobasso. He started working in Rome and moved to Florence. He was the first to tell me about the prejudices he faces as soon as people hear him start to talk. Dialects are very regional, and Italians can tell exactly where another Italian comes from based on how they talk. He is not the only who has told me that southerns face prejudices in the north. And it IS harder for them to move up in businesses in the north.

People no longer wish to move to Canada?

R371 reminds me of what my friend in Venice tells everyone. Everyone visiting there, mostly Americans, always go on about how they want to go to the place "Italians" go, they don't want to be surrounded by tourist, where are the true authentic real Italian places? She tells them to go to the McDonalds on the mainland - it's full of Italians and you won't see a single tourist.

There is nobody more protective of Italian ideals than some American (usually Italian) not living here. I shop at Italian Markets, I speak the language, I shop at local stores, I support the economy, I pay taxes, I live here. I am not going to base the authenticity of my experience on your fever dream ideas.

Someone asked me what I thought of living in Sicily. I said that unless you want a really slow way of life and not dealing with the types of infrastructure for daily living most Americans are used to, I would not recommend it. It's beautiful, it's slow, the people are lovely. The food is really good. But I can only eat so many cassatas before getting bored. For some people it would be a dream come true.

[quote]He is not the only who has told me that southerns face prejudices in the north. And it IS harder for them to move up in businesses in the north.

This has been going on for a very, very long time in Italy. The common perception is that Northern Italy is cosmopolitan, business-oriented and wealthy while Southern Italy is poor, backwards and redneck.

It's pretty much the exact same thing as the North/South divide in the US.

Funny R381, that’s pretty much exactly what I said in r367, but I got called out on my “bullshit…”

All of the industry - car manufacturers, fashion, a lot of the farming, food - the money comes from the north. Northern Italians even look a bit different, more generic Europen than expressly Italian. The Italian American look we are used to comes from the south - Naples, Calabria and Sicily , olive skin, dark thick curly hair. I swear Romans talk just like New Yorkers. They see themselves the same way too. They’re not Italians, they’re Roman’s just like New Yorkers. So the attitude is very similar to the north and south in America.

r382 you are absolutely correct in what you said in your previous post. It's odd that other posters attacked you for it, I thought the North/South divide in Italy and how it mirrors our own North/South divide was pretty well-known.

If language wasn't an issue, I'd consider one of the Scandinavian countries. But, because of the weather, it'd have to be the southern areas.

For English speaking areas, I'd consider British Columbia in Canada as their climate is more mild, or the British Virgin Islands if I wanted tropical.

Another thread where the subject of Italy comes up, and people start to denigrate people of southern Italian heritage.

You must really hate yourselves.

r385 it's just talking about the culture of Italy. It's very similar to the north and south thing in the US. Nobody is denigrating anything.

I lived nearly 40 years in Italy. And that's a long time. Not as a pampered American expat. But as an American business owner and creative completely immersed in the country and its culture. I've posted about that elsewhere here.

[quote]He was the first to tell me about the prejudices he faces as soon as people hear him start to talk.

And THAT is what this "prejudice" is about. A thick regional accent...whether it's Neapolitan or Tuscan or wherever... IS looked down upon if you are looking for work in certain fields. But that can also be true in the US. A thick Brooklyn accent (and that's the North BTW) might be a hinderance in certain environments. But not the fact that you're "from Brooklyn".

People with origins in the south are prominent in ALL phases and work environments in Italy. ALL of them: government, finance, health, entertainment, business, literature, all of the arts, law, fashion, law enforcement, the judiciary. Do you want names? My gosh...look at the "amministrazione communale" of Milan as an example. Half of the names end in a vowel. The ex mayor of your city Dario Nardella's family is southern Italian. Prime Ministers like Giuseppe Conte, Enrico Letta, Giuliano Amato, Massimo D'Alema, Ciriaco De Mita, Giovanni Goria....are/were all from the south. R367 doesn't even know who these people are. The current PRESIDENT of Italy, Sergio Mattarella was born in Palermo for Christ's sake.

What Americans like R367 do not understand is that HORDES or people from the south began immigrating to the north during the 20th century. Americans think there's a wall between the north and the south.

The funny thing is, Its the well educated upper class southern Italians that have the best Italian pronunciation because they must learn correct Italian as a result of growing up speaking dialect. For me, the most beautiful accent in Italy is of the upper class Neapolitans.

That's all very well - but is there a branch of Russell Hobbs in Sicily?

Zimbabwe

[quote]There is nobody more protective of Italian ideals than some American (usually Italian) not living here. I shop at Italian Markets, I speak the language, I shop at local stores, I support the economy, I pay taxes, I live here. I am not going to base the authenticity of my experience on your fever dream ideas.

Fancy!

[quote]All of the industry - car manufacturers, fashion, a lot of the farming, food - the money comes from the north.

Bud...just stop.

While the Northern regions are wealthier, let's remember that the two BIGGEST most profitable industries in Italy are Enel and Eni and they are both headquartered in Rome.

Leonardo Aerospace and defense, Acquirento Unico, Fincantieri, Terna....all headquartered in Rome.

How does BC seasonal weather compare with that of Seattle and Portland?

R392, I'd think it'd be similar. Actually I just googled "which Canadian province has the mildest weather" and BC came up.

[quote]All of the industry - car manufacturers, fashion...

Oh and BTW...the most valuable brand in Italy is Gucci. The CEO is Stefano Cantino, the current designer is Sabato de Sarno. The previous designer was Alessandro Michele. ALL Southern Italians. Kinder/Ferrero is ranked 3rd in value. The CEO is Giovanni Ferrero. Southern Italian. Fendi is ranked 7th. The family is Roman. And on and on. Just so you know.

That still doesn't change the fact that there's a big divide between Northern and Southern Italy.

R385 how am I denigrating the people of the south? If anything it’s am denigrating the people of the north for being prejudiced.

And I love how hard people like r387 go to prove me wrong but start off by completely agreeing with me. The equivalent of his argument in the US would be racism doesn’t exist because Obama was elected president.

R388 only on Amazon .it and select Coin Casa.

Poland. The infrastructure is great, I have some Polish ancestry and have already started learning the language, and they refuse to let in those pesky Muslims who keep driving cars into crowds of people.

NYC doesn’t seem that different to me. Congestion pricing which Trump wants to kill has helped with the traffic a lot. Much easier to get around in an Uber or taxi. I’m sure immigrants are terrified but there have been no big raids here. I expect Cuomo will be the next Mayor. Broadway is fun with lots of big stars. What Trump is doing is horrible but it hasn’t affect NYC much yet that I can see.

These threads are always the same. It's just a load of people fantasising about living somewhere they went to for a week one time, and a really boring man who's moved to Italy and needs to tell us all about it.

I feel seen

R391, you act as if I am coming up with these figures when the information is easily googleable. Lombardia, where Milan is located accounts for just about twice the contribution to the GDP as Lazio, where Rome is located. There are twenty regions of Italy. Out of the five biggest producing regions in Italy, four of them are in the North - Lombardia, Veneto, Emilia-Romagna and Piemonte - which account for close to 50% of the entire nation's GDP. And all of that still doesn't include Toscana where a lot of the banking is located with the oldest operating bank in the world, located in Siena.

[quote] and a really boring man who's moved to Italy and needs to tell us all about it.

Somewhere in one of the thousands of posts she made during hijacking this thread - she said she was a female R399.

OK, R399 -- tell us [bold]your[/bold] fascinating tales!

I eagerly await your sublime contributions to this thread, because your bitchy post at R399 told me nothing except that you're a typical bitter queen.

[quote]And I love how hard people like [R387] go to prove me wrong but start off by completely agreeing with me.

No, you are wrong. I am not agreeing with you. You are the one making absurd claims that "People from the south have a very hard time finding work outside of certain industries in the North." and "And it IS harder for them to move up in businesses in the north."

All untrue.

I am telling you that a thick regional accent is the issue....NOT the origins of a person. That thick regional accent could be from the north as well as the south. A Tuscan with a thick Tuscan accent could find his accent a hinderance trying to find work in a law office in Florence. It's not about where you are from. A clean correct pronunciation is what is valued.

R401 Once again: read what the fuck you wrote. You wrote: "All of the industry - car manufacturers, fashion, a lot of the farming, food - the money comes from the north."

ALL of the industry? No, that's false. The two biggest are in Rome. And there are others also in the top ranking.

AND I wrote: "While the Northern regions are wealthier..."

Got it? No one is saying that there isn't an economic divide between the North and the South, but to say that "All of the industry" is in the north is false.

Can you delusional lot stop talking about Italy?

R403 Hi senior lesbian

I'm not American so I'm not fantasising about moving anywhere. I'm from the UK and have lived in several other European countries but I won't bore you with the details as they're not relevant.

I wish you well with your Panamanian endeavour. The boring people going on about Italy, however, don't sound very content. Happy ex-pats spend their time with locals rather than posting essays on a majority American message board talking about their difficulties.

I would love to live in the Mediterranean region for weather alone. And southern Italy has a more reliably pleasant climate in winter than northern Italy, which can be very rainy and cold at that time of year. But honestly, I would get bored in a small village without theaters, concert halls, cinemas, museums, and other forms of entertainment and mental stimulation. It would be great to visit for 3 weeks for relaxation, but not more. And once we're talking about medium to large cities, the houses for $1 are off the table. There are cities in southern Italy I'd happily live in, but they would be expensive compared to the little country villages that are advertising so heavily to build their populations back up. It's sad that climate change is also reducing the desirability of Italy as a dream. Between the wildfires which are increasing in our hotter world, and the occasional severe flooding, I think people are probably wondering whether that country, or indeed any country in the Mediterranean is the best option, just as California is showing itself to be vulnerable to the same problems.

Damn, R408, you can cast a dark cloud every anything.

Of course €1 houses don't end up cost €1 (much better and faster and cheaper to buy a house in good or reasonable condition for a bargain price compared to anything in the US and do some simple renovations to your taste.) And of course you don't find such houses near the opera house and the museums in the center of Rome or Milan, or Turin, or Florence, or Palermo. And wherever you buy a house you're unlikely to be immune to global climate change.

But you must have a lot of money saved with that talent for talking yourself out of things? I'm (half) joking, but seriously, your unseriousness is pretty typical of these threads. And not surprisingly. Most people float an idea a bit before deciding to act upon or shelve it.

This thread and others like it is largely a place for people who have never left their home state to fantasise about moving to a country that they couldn’t hope to visit except on Netflix.

R410? Damn, you're an asshole.

Touched a nerve, R411?

Um, I'm not as well traveled as many of the gay men here, some of whom are solidly upper middle class and higher, but I have I ridden my motorcycle in all of the lower 48 states, and I've been in 1) Germany (lived there when I was in the Army, have gone back since), 2) France, 3) Switzerland, 4) Mexico, 5) Panama, and 6) Canada.

Not that many, I know, but I have never had much money, and frankly, I prioritized trips I could take on my motorcycle. I still do, which is why, when I actually move to Panama, I'm tentatively planning on riding there. Keep your fingers crossed!

But I don't know why I even bothered to answer you, R412 -- you're still an asshole. And you know the old saying: when you ASSUME, you make an ASS out of U and ME.

New Zealand would be nice and safe, but let's get real: the people are mean and small minded.

This is one of the many great reasons to move abroad. The cost of living, the cost of good food. Today I bought ground meat, chicken thighs, bacon, asparagus, almond milk and a bunch of other stuff not pictured - four bags full - 45euros which is about $49 right now.

R408, Here's the thing. Living in the city itself is always gonna be more expensive. as far as finding an apartment, etc. But if you live just 30 minutes outside a big city, or live in a medium sized city, you will have the amenities like WiFi and transportation. it is critical to live near transportation lines and the other thing to look at is shopping. My friend just moved to Lisbon and he walks to the grocery store every day. It's mere blocks away.

Austria, Portugal, and Malta have accessible visa programs for people with a modest nest egg.

Just curious, what is the average rent for a one bedroom in America now? I know it varies greatly. But I live in NYC for so long, my idea of what rent is is skewered. I am just curious if the rest of America has caught up to where NYC was five years ago.

r418, the less desirable the location, the less money you'll pay.

I’m sure that the Kiwis would just love to welcome you, R414, with that attitude.

You’ve never been there, have you? Or anywhere else for that matter, right?

Hey senior lesbian R413 - I’ve always been a fan. I said “largely” because most of the people on these threads are not actually doing something other than wringing their hands. I’ve followed your move to Panama from afar and think that it’s great.

Interesting things that people never really tell you about and that you don't learn until you move. You get used to them all. But this is the European edition:

Say goodbye to your dryer. No one really has them. This isn't 100%, but it is very very rare, even in a nice apartment, to have a dryer. I have a washer/dryer combo which is rare, but it's not the same. You will hang your clothes to dry which means - in the summer, great (just keep out of the sun because of discoloration) but in the winter, it will take at least a full day if not longer to dry - so you have to plan what you're wearing.

Say goodbye to a regular refrigerator. Most of the refrigerators are small - again even in nice new apartments, and have small freezers that don't defrost. People don't store food for the apocalypse like Americans do and go to the market more often. And they hate leftovers. So fridge space isn't a thing. It can be decent, but smaller that what Americans are used to.

There is a dixie cup amount of water in the toilet. You will become expert at where you sit. Going to the bathroom becomes like Bugs Bunny diving from a great height into a bucket. You will understand why every bathroom, including public ones, have a toilet brush next to them.

Your personality will change. I don't care how fluent you are, unless you can speak like a Native speaker, you will retreat into yourself not being able to fully express yourself in your new language - If it's a different language. There is a BIG difference between saying "It's really nice outside," and "Days like this make me want to jump out of bed." You become used to not understanding a thing around you, and learn to live with it. It gets better if you really try to learn the language - but only marginally so. The best way to learn is through a relationship with someone or a faced paced job where you HAVE to learn. You will learn what being illiterate means.

Convenience isn't always a priority - WHICH is nice to get used to. It's different trying to figure out how your life fits into a system vs. living in a way where the system is constantly trying to make life easier for you. Life isn't carpe diem, it's not make the most of every moment. It's just live in the moment.

r422, you've reminded me of when I rented an AirBnB in Paris in 2017, a flat that was around $1 mil euros (I checked). The listing had washer and dryer. When we arrived, the owner was showing us everything, showed the washer, and when I asked, "The dryer?", he proudly pulled back the shower curtain and showed me the drying rack in the tub.

My sister has a combo Washer Dryer in her apartment in London. It takes forever. The same appliance both washes and dries the clothes.

R424, that’s what I have. Because of efficiency regulations it takes 6 hours! to do. I do laundry overnight. It uses steam heat to dry and gets really hot. So your electric bill is insane and the clothes still feel a little “humid” not bone dry. And if you aren’t there the minute it stops, my god the wrinkles, you’ll have to iron your underwear even.

When I move to Central America the washer/dryer combo will be the same woman.

[quote] My friend just moved to Lisbon and he walks to the grocery store every day. It's mere blocks away.

This is unique?

The old lesbian is my friend.

I appreciate SL's sharing her feelings/actions/receipts candor during her/our adventure/trauma. I have my own plan in place that I've been preparing for for but the current universal truth is that none of us, from the current VP to SL's dog knows WTF is going to happen; closed borders-you can leave but not come back, no SS checks to ex-pats, tariffs and fees on anything, anyone for any reason. Mad King Donald.

My nephew (!) has an advanced degree and a great job from an agency that just got cut. He knows his boss is a Maggot who has a list. No one is safe which I think is the whole point. Problem, Reaction, Solution.

Some interesting points, R422.

[quote]Say goodbye to your dryer. No one really has them.

Depends on where you are, but definitely less common. Combo washer/dryers do indeed take some getting used to, and some planning. I live in Spain, in the south where dryers are particularly unnecessary, though I almost bought a large old house that had not one but two huge dryers. It's not as though they cannot be found. On bright, hot days (of which there are many), I can hang a line of clothes on the roof and by the time I have hung them all, the ones have hung first are already quite dry, and I can start putting them back into the basket. Faster than any dryer. But on expat boards many American posters, particularly with young children, cannot adjust easily and buy American type dryers. They are not commonplace, but neither are they difficult to find.

[quote]Say goodbye to a regular refrigerator. Most of the refrigerators are small - again even in nice new apartments, and have small freezers that don't defrost

True. Though full size and bigger by US standards "American refrigerators" are increasingly commonplace in quality new construction and renovations. A big ass American refrigerator/freezer with all the features of the best US brands are readily available. More than anything it's now down to different habits of shopping and meal planning.

The typically smaller size of apartments and houses *on average* in Europe is a factor in appliances.

[quote]I don't care how fluent you are, unless you can speak like a Native speaker, you will retreat into yourself not being able to fully express yourself in your new language - If it's a different language.

Absolutely. Being fluent is nothing at all like being adroit and elegant, capable of toying with words in clever turns or introducing a bit of poetry to the mundane. Sometimes there's a frustration at having the language skills of an above average child with a big vocabulary but little art.

[quote]Convenience isn't always a priority - WHICH is nice to get used to. It's different trying to figure out how your life fits into a system vs. living in a way where the system is constantly trying to make life easier for you. Life isn't carpe diem, it's not make the most of every moment. It's just live in the moment.

American customer service "isn't all that," and yet many Americans retain a rosier than reality memory of the idea of it. I find customer service very different but much better than in the US.

In a larger sense, Competition comes into play, and there's much more of that evident in US. Competition as the edge to treat a cashier poorly because they were insufficiently grateful for your custom, or didn't smile enough, or more swiftly enough. I've never seen a Spanish Karen, or anyone having a pissy moment with a bureaucrat or a shop clerk or a bus driver. Americans are competitive and quick to assert whatever privileges they possess at any opportunity. They are competitive with their friends, with their colleagues, with their Instagrams, with everything. That scraping and clawing and asserting is not so important in many places in Europe. That atmosphere is one I'm happy to have left behind and not encounter with the rare exception (usually of foreigners abroad.)

If your main concern with begging for asylum from another country is the quality of their appliances then can I suggest that you're not likely to make a go of your grand dramatic exit?

[quote]the current universal truth is that none of us, from the current VP to SL's dog knows WTF is going to happen

You're exactly right, R429, and that, in addition to my mounting anxiety, is what makes it harder every day.

[quote]closed borders-you can leave but not come back, no SS checks to ex-pats, tariffs and fees on anything

Thanks for the extra things I hadn't thought to be afraid of...

But seriously, I'm grateful for your insight.

When I was in Paris, I was surprised to find that many kitchens, including restaurants, cooked with electric. My father explained that the antiquated buildings were had to retrofit with gas lines, and gas sources were spare or far. When my Swedish friends moved to L.A., they were freaked out by the gas stove, burning things, and worried about it exploding during earthquakes.

R431 Just packin' up the speedboat so's I can make my big escape!

[qupte]When I was in Paris, I was surprised to find that many kitchens, including restaurants, cooked with electric.

Gas is also quite rare in Canada. Most rental apartments are electric-only as are condos built in the last 20 years, an even before then it would be an extra cost option to have it added to your unit.

As to r422’s list… in the US I haven’t used a clothes dryer in 15 years. Hanging racks, even in winter’s inadequately heated apartments. Small fridge? Fine. I’d rather plan dinner by “what do I feel like eating tonight?” Now I live just far enough a walk from the supermarket to have to juggle, if I get the cantaloupe, I won’t be able to get the can of tomatoes i need for tomorrow. Language fluency? Yes that’s definitely a serious drawback but you know what’s peaceful? Sitting on the bus, tram or train and NOT understanding the conversations going on around you.

Ironic isn’t it, before Schengen, we’d be golden. Two-three months in each European country, or crossing the border and then coming back. Now it’s six months max and come back next year. Or fill out the paperwork and pray.

2-3 months in the EU every year. I ALWAYS make sure that I have a washing machine, but a dryer is purely optional. I never go in the dead of the winter, but usually shoulder season. If it's cold and rainy, I hang the clothes on the radiator. It's no big deal. Perhaps if I was doing laundry for a large family, I might feel differently. In the past, I have seen really small refrigerators, but lately they have been more than adequate. I'm usually by myself or with one other person.

Wyoming

[quote]New Zealand would be nice and safe, but let's get real: the people are mean and small minded.

What an incredibly bizarre thing to say R414. New Zealanders are world known for their kindness, openness and for being nice. During your last visit to New Zealand what did you experience to make this claim?

R414 wouldn’t be able to locate NZ on a map.

The people of Barcelona are hating on tourists and using squirt guns to harass them. The time is coming when they will not want us there.

I have actually kept San Miguel de Allende in my back pocket but read an expat account which said that they set off fireworks constantly due to various religious holidays. Nope.

That time is now R441 and not just in Spain.

R414 is the Trans Troll

I guess I'm not leaving for Panama tomorrow like I'd planned (sigh). Not only was I unsuccessful at finding a trustworthy doggie babysitter, but my Pensionado visa isn't ready to be picked up yet. Two to six months, they told me, and it's almost three. Oh well. A $500 non-refundable plane ticket (I know -- I asked) to stay in Panama for three weeks down the drain. So instead of throwing good money after bad, I guess I'll stay here until they tell me it's actually ready to be picked up in Panama City, buy an outrageously expensive plane ticket a few days after I'm notified, stay for 10 days (again) to save hotel $, and then come back here knowing my escape plan is ready (hopefully).

Good God almighty, I have never ever ever compromised my life so much for a dog. Some pats on the back, fellow DLers?

And I never ever thought I'd be wishing to be more like Kristi Noem...

R445 I know exactly how you feel, Senior Lesbian. I have an extremely elderly cat that requires me to put my plans on hold. I never thought he would live so long. What I can do and where I can go revolves around him.

I saw this on the news yesterday, but apparently it happened last December. Horrible.

R445 - as long as you canceled your plane ticket, you should still get a credit to use on the airline for 6 months, right? I always get the travel credit in my account to use for future use.

[quote]A $500 non-refundable plane ticket (I know -- I asked)

I know you mean well, R448, but I wish some of you folks would actually read the posts.

R449 - non-refundable doesn't mean no flight credit. It just means you won't get the $ back.

I buy non-refundable tickets all the time, but if I cancel, I get a flight credit for that amount - as long as it is canceled a certain amount of time before the flight.

Non-refundable does not mean lost money. It just means no financial refund.

Thessaloniki Greece.

I'm trying to learn Greek.

Oh FFS, R450 -- you can't just take my fucking word for it?? You have to try to point out that apparently I have no idea what I'm doing and need your help (just like every other fucking man) until I explain it to you like a toddler and prove to you that I'm completely competent in this regard?

OK -- I guess I need to do that. I ordered the tickets from a subsidiary of Priceline called American Forces Travel. If you're a veteran, you get a discount. I never used them before, but it was a good price, so I went with it. So when I tried to cancel or change the dates online, I couldn't do it. I called the customer service line (no way to get a real person), and it said that if my ticket did not have a link to a site that allows me to change my flight (which of course, it didn't), I was SOL. Then I called Copa, the actual airline, and tried to beg and plead -- but to no avail. They said that because I had not booked the flight directly through them, there was nothing they could do.

OK, Lord and Savior -- is there some miracle you'd like to perform so I can get some $/credit for my next flight? I imagine you're the type of queen that never had to watch his pennies, flies business class to everywhere, yada yada yada. I'd be willing to bet you have no experience whatsoever trying to buy cheap airline tickets.

It's so strange how men think they have such an incredible font of wisdom at their fingertips and believe they need to help those who they perceive to be "poor, pathetic, stupid women." Condescending motherfuckers. It never occurs to them that the woman they're trying to "help" with their phenomenal skills might be waaaay ahead of them.

Rant over. Feel free to ban me if you like.

Why is an old tired lesbian on a gay men's website? Fuck your anger and fuck you, go away and take your nose in the air and cry somewhere else, and take your god in the sky with you, a god bothering Lezzie, nice.

Don’t listen to them R452 - please stick around. I’m a man and even I get mansplained by silly queens like cR448, R459 and R453.

I’ve often found that the gay travel “experts” have never been to an actual airport let alone anywhere beyond that.

Good luck SL! Keep us posted.

Reading about SL's journey to Panama makes me think of Elizabeth Bishop's move to Brazil during the McCarthy era. For some reason I find this volume of Bishop's letters to be a source of great comfort, especially the letters she wrote during her years in Brazil.

[QUOTE] have an extremely elderly cat that requires me to put my plans on hold.

Requires? Just ask your vet to euthanase the grisly creature. A cat shouldn't dictate how you live your life.

SL I often have to school some of the less worldly DLers in the fact that just because something isn’t in their experience doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen.

I’ve had some of them attempt to school me in how the system of government in my country - a place that they could never hope to visit - works.

It’s not easy and I don’t always do it myself but they’re best ignored. But I can only imagine the stress of organising your life in the USA, the visa for Panama, your cat, your place - my head would be fucking spinning! You’ll get there.

Senior Lesbian reminds me of the movie Revolutionary Road with her very detailed plans moving abroad (down to where she's gonna stop for gas on her motorcycle) followed up by the very detailed excuses as to why it can't, won't happen (elderly cat and no visa). That cat has nine lives, you just have the one.

SL's "cat" is laughing at you.

[quote]I wouldn’t move next door to Ellen (UK) -her neighbors already hate her…

Wait, tell us more!

You couldn't pay me to live in fucking Panama.

R129 Love Anne Applebaum. That's an American I respect. Hot husband too.

[R193] [R353] I'm so sad about this, it was perfect, citizenship easy, only have to live there two years, I know Spanish, nice weather, cheap to live, dogs every where and they drive on the same side of the road. Argentina was Plan B for so long :( I cry for it.

R462 The only country in Central America that I've been to is Mexico (never been to South America either). I know Panama is a popular expat destination as it's east to qualify, on the US dollar (no currency exchange/fluctuation issues) and it's a quick and cheap flight to/from the southern US. I spend several months a year in Eastern Europe and qualify for residency/citizenship based on grandparents. The advantage is also that it is part of the EU. That said, if that wasn't an option, I would consider South or Central America.

^On behalf of the 7 countries of Central America and the 12 countries in South America, home to 500 million people, we thank you for your consideration but we've decided to take a pass, though you may still wish to consider Mexico which is located in North America.

Are Americans who plan to relocate to other countries aware of the anti-Americanism in the western countries which has increasingly developed over the past decade? Especially recently where it has reached a crescendo.

Have you all visited where your moving to or are you just going there and hoping it works out?

Oddly enough, The United Nations geoscheme defines Central America as 8 countries and includes Mexico. Perhaps, because it is part of Latin America and shares more culturally and linguistically with Central/South America.

I'm an American who has spent about 1/3 of my life living abroad in Latin America and Europe. Nobody cares. Most people aren't going to know where you are from unless you advertise it and make it obvious. Of course if you are a loudmouthed, entitled MAGAt, "ugly American" stereotype, you have a far higher chance of running into issues.

R469 Americans are obvious from a mile away. This isn't a recent development.

At this point in time, nobody likes you, Americans. That's not me being my usual cunty self, but just the sentiment that's making the rounds in the western hemisphere.

It will take two consecutive democrat terms, so 8 years at least, to restore what Trump has destroyed in the first 3 MONTHS of his second act. So -- there is hope for better times, but it's a decade away, at least.

R459, she's a dog, thank you. And if you'd like to come here and adopt her, I'd leave today. Do you hate me because I won't kill my 15-year-old dog? Hmmm... That says a lot more about you than it does about me.

I love to travel, I've already been to Panama and received my residency card, and I'm just waiting for my retirement visa to be processed. I have to be in Panama City to pick it up, so I will go back there as soon as I'm notified. Then I'm going to have to play it by ear, as everyone else is doing -- because we have no fucking idea what Trump will do next.

I loved visiting Buenos Aires and Santiago, but I wouldn't want to live there.

Corruption and filth run rampant. You have to wear a chain on your phone and keister your cash, because pickpockets and sneak-thieves are so common. Drivers are lunatics, and nobody has insurance. You shouldn't drink the tap water unless your gut flora can handle it. The bidets have terrible pressure. And the currency is a fucking joke. You need an inch of bills to buy a restaurant meal.

r471, it would have to be at least 3 Dem terms- Obama had 2 and we were just beginning to balance out.

Of all the hundreds of people on these threads talking about “New Zealand looks nice”, “I have a Norwegian grandfather” or “Scotland looks pretty but I don’t like the weather”, I’ve seen only one person actually put their plans into action - Senior Lesbian is organising herself for Panama - good for you, SL! And of course as it’s the DL, some dickhead attacked her for it.

There are a couple of people in Italy including the queen who is so proud of his Russell Hobbs coffee maker but I think that they were already there.

The rest just sounds like thought bubbles posted here.

Montenegro.

I've traveled all over and I've come to the conclusion that I couldn't live anywhere except the NYC Metro area. I love to travel, but I can't live anywhere else.

That's really sad R477.

R477 I love visiting the NYC Metropolitan Area, but it's not a place that I'd want to make a permanent home. To each his own.

Thanks, R475. I appreciate it.

I'm at the point where I think I might ask someone I know (bad with me/people in general, but good with animals) to adopt her, and give her a chunk of $ to take care of her. But there's a good chance she'll turn me down. Or I could see if I can't somehow get the documentation/health certifications to take her with me. It's just that it would break my heart to put my 15-year-old dog through all that, even if she could pass the doggie physical. I'd almost rather have her "put down" to save her from that craziness.

And with each additional evil thing that Trump and his cronies pull, I am more anxious to leave (a true understatement). I swear, it's like I hear a clock ticking.

Bah.

R475: Not sure how many hundreds of individual posters there are on this thread, but yes, many posters are "thinking aloud," and others are simply curious and not seriously contemplating a move.

I comment here because I am another who person who put his plan to action. Past tense. I moved to Europe 6+ years ago. In my case for different reasons than the Trump madness, but the process of moving successfully from the US is mostly the unchanged.

r478 it's not sad at all. The NYC Metro area is a great place to live.

I just came across this for R391 that pretty much lays it out.

Senior Lesbian assumed her visa would be ready at the sooner end of the waiting period and bought a non-refundable ticket? Not the best start to figuring out how to make a move. People have mentioned places in countries with very unstable economies like Greece and crazy politics (Argentina). One of the first posts mention Brazil where year round living requires citizenship. Living abroad requires much knowledge and planning. Past threads on living abroad seem much more thoughtful than this.

Golly gee whillikers, R484 -- I just wish I was as smart as you!

But it was not as stupid as you think. I have my Panama residency card, so I could actually be living there now. Plus, the lawyer's office told me the Pensionado visas were being processed very quickly lately, and mine was already through the third step out of eight by the end of January. I'd only come home to get my affairs in order and to gird my loins enough (so to speak) to put my dog down. I mean, hell, where I live, people dump their unwanted dogs out in the forest! But not being deplorable white trash scum like my Trumper neighbors, I couldn't make myself have her put down while she still has mostly good days.

When I fly back down there (after they contact me) to pick up the visa, get my cedula (ID card), and a Panamanian driver's license, I'll go through Copa Air, and they'll give me the Pensionado discount (25%). Then I can change the day/time of the flight if I need to. When I made the earlier reservation, I didn't know I was eligible for the Pensionado discount with just my residency card, but now I do.

Still waiting for the call from the lawyer's office.

Italy this week tightened previously liberal requirements to attain Italian citizenship by descent.

Previously the rule enabled citizenship to anyone who could prove they had an Italian ancestor alive after March 17, 1861 when the Kingdom of Italy was created.

Now the rule is restricted to having at least one parent or grandparent born in Italy

R486 I still qualify by the new standards! Thank god (and grandpa Pasquale) they can't revoke my passport. The company I used to assist with the citizenship process is panicking about all the business they're about to lose over this, judging from the panicky emails they keep sending.

I'm almost embarrassed to say it but I have a passion for blonde, ringlet-haired heroic men now.

It's only right that those rules get tightened, and it should be limited to parents only (as in: no way to get a citizenship just because your grandmother was born in an EU-country).

Another reason why I started my paperwork for the Pensionado visa the day after the election: I can envision a time when no other countries will take us. It looks like that day is coming sooner rather than later.

Don't be embarrassed R488. These ringlet-haired men are the stuff of dreams.

Just be aware, all of you people applying for Elective Visas (retirement visas) in the EU, you cannot legally work ever and it's not a visa that can be changed to another once you have it. You would have to apply again in the States for a new one. I was going to do that originally, but I'm glad I didn't - because you never know what type of fun part-time job you might want. You don't want to limit yourself by never being able to work - unless you are 100% positive you never want want to work again.

There was a young German guy (30?) in my lawyer's office when I was there. He'd received a visa to "start his own business" and was having it renewed. Of course, as he himself told me, he's never actually started a business. He just kept telling them he was going to.

In Panama, even on a retirement visa, you are allowed to work for yourself, say, teaching Spanish to other ex-pats, or work online for an American business. The catch is, in theory, at least, you can't take a job from a Panamanian.

Medillian Columbia would be my place. Cheap, excellent health care and luxury living

^ tell us you're a cokehead without telling us you're a cokehead.

r495 nah I had my nose candy days. Never really did it for me I liked GHB more. Still do :D.

Speaking of, here's the text of one of those panicked emails from my Italian Citizenship Assistance company, just received today:

"Dear Clients,

The Italian Council of Ministers abruptly approved, on Friday, March 27, 2025, a “decreto legge/law decree” amending the rules for the recognition of Italian citizenship by descent, “jus sanguinis.”

Key Points:

1. The measure, called the “Citizenship Package,” was drawn up by the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Antonino Tajani and went into effect at midnight on March 27, 2025. According to the announcement, only children and grandchildren of Italians born abroad will have automatic citizenship rights.

2. The rule does not affect those who have already been granted citizenship or applications initiated before the new cut-off date. ​At this time it has not been determined where pending applications of children and grandchildren of Italians are being sent for processing. The consulates have stopped processing applications and discontinued taking citizenship appointments at this time.

3. According to legal experts of the Italian Community, there is no justification of urgency that legitimizes the use of a “decreto legge.” Italian case law establishes that the urgency of a decree-law must be concrete and proven, with coherence between the proposed measures. When this does not occur, it constitutes abuse of legislative power.

4. The decree runs the risk of being invalidated by the Court of Cassation, if the improper use of the emergency route is confirmed and could be nullified by the Court of Cassation.

5. If the court does not invalidate the legitimacy of the decree, the contents of the decree still needs to be made into law by Parliament within 60 days. The Parliament can also decide to modify the text of the law.

6. Some parliamentarians of the government majority are publicly opposing this damaging decree and need to hear from those affected."

And then there's a call to action. None of this bothers me as I think Italy's rules were far too lax. This change just brings them in line with other EU countries' policies like Ireland and Germany.

Don't let the door hit you in your ass, old lez, you are obviously nothing but a hot mess, taking Paw Paw with you I hope, storms be a-coming, take the other old lez with you and BabyDyke and the weirdo Tortoise as well please.

Fucking Austria

Misogyny is so tired, R498 - but it’s your obvious insanity which is a bigger concern.

Get help, you freak.

I have R498 blocked, R500 -- but thanks!

r497, in the French news yesterday, people of Italian descent living in Argentina were freaking out about the new decrees.

I once made fun of ElderLez, and my account was mysteriously locked for days afterward. With Dutchie, it lasted even longer.

You mustn't fuck with the named DL super-users. They have the means to utterly brick your access if you cross them. I'll probably get in trouble just for warning you.

I'm confused. I was in the midst of applying for Italian citizenship because my Grandfather was an Italian citizen when my father was born. As I read R497 I think I can still qualify through blood ties. Am I right?

R504 Yes. They're cutting off anything further back than grandparents.

I thought there was also NEW age component though which makes it much harder. The Child (R504's father) needed to reach the age of 21 before his father (R504's grandfather) became an American citizen. If the grandfather never became an American citizen, then no problem.

R506 There's no mention of age limits here.

Yes, R507, there is a stricter ruling. Your ancestor would have had to be an adult when their father was naturalized in another country, OR prove that they did not live with their father as a minor when their father became naturalized, OR show that they regained their Italian citizenship after becoming an adult, 21. If your grandparent became a naturalized citizen in foreign country when one of your parents were minors, then their Italian citizenship was forfeited as well.

R503

What can I say? I’ve got friends in high places.

R509 The only one that unemployable old cow still listens to, I reckon.

I'll send a case of Bartles & Jaymes and a cocoa-skinned delivery boy to help you with your dialing.

I hate Ireland. So slow... inefficient in every way...

What is it that you need Ireland to be so fast about, R511?

Excuse me, an example, to approve a will, it takes 7 months.

Do you think that's fast or slow ? The govt is so slow on everything....

Thanks for the example, R513. That is indeed a long time for a simple thing.

Elder senior LEZ I can't wait for hurricane season fucking muff eating bitch, have fun! Insane cunts on a gay men's website, I ask again, WHY CAN'T YOU FIND A LEZZIE PLACE to cause trouble on? Take BabyDyke and Torta the cunt with you, what the hell do t you understand, perhaps you have been run out already? Can you swim?

Maybe put the crack pipe down, R515, and go lie down for a few days. Interestingly not only are the women who you hate so much sensibly ignoring your crazed rantings, but so are are the men - you only get one WW with each of your sad posts and I strongly suspect that that’s coming from you.

I have zero intention of moving out of the US but I've always found Australia to be alluring.

Why has no one yet apprised OP of DL fave Taylor and his fabulous Malaysian retirement?

R515, I was here way back when there was a separate section for lesbians. Why don't you buy Mediapolis (like Elon bought Twitter) and bring the lesbian section back? Don't have the $ to do that? Until then, you're stuck with me and all the other posters you so despise.

BTW, I have you blocked, so I had no idea what rudeness you posted before R516 linked it. Thanks for bringing it to my attention!

I’ve got your back, SL - not that you need it with bitter little nonentities like R515.

Nowhere, I'll die here and that's allright.

R515 should know you don't fuck with the lesbians on here. You will disappear for a good 24 hours off the site, and sometimes back to back.

R522 you should know that you don’t fuck with people anywhere.

R516 son of a dyke, brother of a dyke, cousin of many dykes and friend of many dykes.

They just made it harder for people to claim Italian Citizenship!!!

They made it harder for people seeking citizenship through Jure Sanguinis (through a blood relative) R524, but they haven't changed the path to citizenship for everyone else. It is still the ten years residency as it was before and I believe passing a B1 exam. I have a couple of friends who have done it. I will be five years into it next year and able to apply for long term residency which puts me on the path for citizenship, if I want it.

Good.

I can claim my Italian citizenship. Not a problem. My grandfather was not a citizen, when my father was born. What ahs changed is that if it was my great grandfather then no I couldn't.

R527, did you grandfather ever become a citizen? If so, it would have had to have been after your father turned 21 years old. That is the rub of the new law. It is the belief that when the father negates his Italian citizenship, he does so for his minor children living with him as well. So if you there are three things necessary to prove if your grandfather became a citizen:

1. That your grandfather became a citizen after your dad was 21. 2. That your dad did not grow up in your grandfather's household (divorce), therefore his decision to negate his citizenship wouldn't affect his children. 3. That your dad, upon turning 21 re-established his own citizenship with Italy.

For those of you thinking of applying for secondary citizenship - don't wait. Do it today because things might change.

I have a problem with how shabby housing is in European countries, unless you're willing to spend a million. And the value of the dollar is dropping. I can deal with rail travel, no car, and subways. I can even get used to their grocery stores and shopping venues. But I especially don't like the kitchen set up and the bathrooms are gross.

Joan and Frankie Grande, who are the mother and brother of American singer, songwriter and actress Ariana Grande, respectively, have become Italian citizens, under the claims they are descendants of Italian citizens.

More specifically, the maternal great-grandparents of Grande, Michele Antonio Grande and Filomena Lavandetti, were emigrants from Gildone, who moved to the United States, .

If I had to I'd move to St. Maarten. I have relatives there and I have a permanent residency permit I obtained several years ago. I inherited a piece of residential property from my late cousin, but I would have to sell it and buy a place somewhere else and the property is very near the airport runway, and I'm not about to build a house on that plot.

But honestly, I have no plans to let Jabba The Trump force me to flee the country.

R530 can you be specific about the kitchen and bathrooms? Curious to read what you do and don’t like.

R530, you can get any kitchen or bathroom you want in Europe. For much less than in the U.S., whether you want something low cost, standard, or luxury grade and likewise in materials and design options.

You can have a washing machine and a separate drying machine if you want, you can have a dedicated laundry room if you insist.

Europeans have heating and air conditioning, too. And smart appliances and windows and security systems and more.

I'm also curious why you think all Europeans (with housing worth under €1M) suffer in such dire conditions

R534 I think it’s because Europe is not a “Rental” culture possibly. Most people own their homes. Children inherit their grandparents place, etc.. SO most people are basing their judgement on rentals that they see which aren’t really ingested in because they are seen as temporary. Europeans can view rentals like most Americans view public transport - a temporary setback until you get on your feet. But in your own home you can have whatever you want and it’s usually beautiful for a lot less. By the way, at least in Italy, it’s odd but when people move from their homes, they take the kitchens with them - appliances, cabinets, etc.

^ Invested not ingested…

Europe is made up of dozens of countries with very different cultures, housing standards, and laws. You cannot generalize about an entire continent like that. It is just not true that most people own their homes across the board.

Home ownership rate in Italy is 75%. In the US 65.7%

Where ever there's a Costco, you will fid me...

Home ownership rates by country

To add to my statement at R535, It's more so that Italy is not a rental country. Even with 75% of people owning their homes, a good number of those who don't are still living at home with their family - into their 30s. They are not renting. I know first hand because I rented in NYC for many years and have also experienced looking for a place to rent here in Italy. Very few landlords go out of their way to make a stylish, liveable rental property. First of all - 99% of rentals come furnished - this even means plates and cook wear. But it's all temporary stuff, or antiques from some old home. It is all very haphazard. And you have to take it as is, and figure out what to do with the stuff you don't like. Sometimes the stuff in the apartment will be the deal breaker because it so gross and you just can't live with it. I luckily found a landlord who's family has owned my building for generations and she renovated my apartment with purpose of it being a long term rental with really nice finishes, antique pieces from the 1960s. I literaly have a mirror on my wall from the 17th century. I asked her how to clean it - she said don't touch it. So I don't. But I mean there was art and books and plates, everything. Very little room for my own style. But luckily I liked her taste.

r541 has a very good point, and not just about Italy but Europe in general. The living accomodations are not what you are used to if you're used to a certain standard of living in the US. And since the gay American men on DL and gay American men in general who wish to live abroad are invariably spoiled, entitled gold-star cunts who are used to an upper middle class standard of modern American living, European countries can be a big culture shock as far as housing and amenities go.

[quote]the gay American men on DL and gay American men in general who wish to live abroad are invariably spoiled, entitled gold-star cunts who are used to an upper middle class standard of modern American living

Damn. R542! I couldn't have said [bold]that[/bold] better myself.

[quote] Montenegro.

Be sure to wear the local style when you're there.

Interestingly to me, considering what an absolute fucking shit storm the past week has been, I haven’t exactly seen a surge in those of you who over the past five months have been blithely talking about where you are moving to. New Zealand? Australia? Italy? Anywhere Scandinavian? Ireland? Obviously no surprise not for Greenland.

Senior Lesbian and Panama is it (apologies SL for the call-out - you know that I’m a fan). No judgement but what will it take for the rest of you to step up or shut the fuck up?

Easy for me to say because I’m on the far South Pacific so am luckily out of the MAGAT reaches for now (and most MAGATs including Trump couldn’t identify my country on a map).

[quote]...not just about Italy but Europe in general. The living accomodations are not what you are used to if you're used to a certain standard of living in the US. And since the gay American men on DL and gay American men in general who wish to live abroad are invariably spoiled, entitled gold-star cunts who are used to an upper middle class standard of modern American living, European countries can be a big culture shock as far as housing and amenities go.

Not sure that I agree, R542. The average rent for a 2-bedroom luxury apartment in Chicago ranges from $3,500–$6,200 per month (€3077 to €5450), depending on the neighborhood and amenities. (I picked a somewhat middle comparison off the top of my head, of a big US city with relatively reasonable prices and relatively high value for the money).

For a major European city comparison I picked Madrid, where the cost of living including rent is 31% lower than Chicago. And I picked one of the most expensive and desirable neighborhoods in center of Madrid. For €4000/month ($4560) you can have 150 square meters (1615 square feet), with entrance hall, living room, dining room, kitchen, 3 bedrooms, and 3 balconies. (Comparable apartments in the same neighbourhood, or equal or better quality, well and fully furnished can be had for €300 more a month).

The point is that in Madrid where apartments rent very quickly you wouldn't exactly be slumming it in primitive conditions to rent what an mid-priced 2 bedroom luxury classed apartment in Chicago. The same is true for a great many European cities.

To suppose that Europe is filled with shitty old inadequate apartments with worn, ancient finishes and antique appliances is more imagination than fact. It's entirely possible for your "entitled gold-star cunts who are used to an upper middle class standard of modern American living" to find more than adequate accommodation in Europe. To buy, it's easier still with greater range of price and selection.

R546, there are certain things you are missing that you really don't pick up until you have lived through it, even looking at your beautiful listing. There are certain amenities that Americans are used to that not even a $1.5 apartment in Europe will have - just because it's not important to Europeans. Even in your beautiful listing you see that the washing machine is in the kitchen - which is completely standard in Europe. It's a given your washing machine is going to be there or in the bathroom - mine is in my kitchen. And my kitchen is brand spanking new. You will NOT have a dryer. In that huge apartment in Spain, you will be hanging your clothes on a drying rack or on the line outside by the window that they have pictured. And don't let the refrigerator fool you. The refrigerators are small, because Europeans don't store food for a nuclear holocaust like Americans do and go to the markets just about daily and don't do leftovers. Americans are used to their double door refrigerators where the freezers are huge AND are self-defrosting. Although they literally do sell "American Style" refrigerators, you are not going to get one of those in a rental. You are most likely going to have an electric stove as well which is more common than gas. The air-conditioning isn't central and will be room by room where you see them. So not ALL rooms will have air-conditioning. And with most European apartments, the elevator (which you are very lucky to have in these old buildings) will fit about three Europeans / two Americans. Elevators in older towns with ancient buildings are near impossible even with a penthouse on top - you are walking four flights.

So it's not necessarily about the price. It's about creature comforts that Americans are used to that you trade in for a different kind of life in Europe - which is fine. But it does take some adjusting to. You WILL have a heated towel rack in the chintziest of places because that is just like standard.

I wasn't kidding! I get the biggest kick whenever I see anything American Style listed. It's like wow, I didn't know that was "our" thing. But it is - like "American Style" bread that is basically sliced panini "sandwich" bread.

What's wrong with having a washing machine in the kitchen? That was accepted 1950s US house design for a while.

R545 Do you know a guy who'll take out a hit on an 82 year old woman? If not, then I'll be stuck here in this thread fantasizing along with everyone else.

[quote]What's wrong with having a washing machine in the kitchen? That was accepted 1950s US house design for a while.

Unacceptable for gay American men who are entitled spoiled cunts who imagine themselves to be characters from White Lotus.

[quote]It's about creature comforts that Americans are used to that you trade in for a different kind of life in Europe - which is fine. But it does take some adjusting to.

I think that "American creature comforts" business nonsense, R547. It's true some immigrants from the US won't shut the fuck Up about the differences, no matter how miniscule they are to what they are accustomed to "back home." (These are the immigrants who never adjust and are fundamentally unhappy, whining nonstop about "back home.")

If driving your car everywhere, doing a one weekly big shopping trip, have a garage sized American refrigerator, a washer and dryer in a laundry room, a main light switch for a bathroom on the inside wall of your bathroom instead of on the (standard) outside corridor wall... If these small things weigh big in your head: 1.) don't move to another country, or 2.) pay a little extra and add them because they are absolutely and easily available, or 3.) shut up and adjust to nit-pickingly unimportant things.

Who moves from Cincinnati or Seattle or NYC and expects that Paris or Madrid or Berlin will be just the same as what they have known? The problem seems less the differences between places than the expectations of people who have never travelled.

Television programming, cinema seating reservations, grocery shopping habits, laundry habits, elections, health care, clothing sizes and colors and styles, the popularity of weekly domestic help, food, socializing, dining hours... There are a thousand small things at least that are different. They're only stumbling blocks if you get hung up on how "weird" it is to have a washing machine in a kitchen or eat dinner at 22.00.

Everyone wants to pipe in. I literally said:

[quote] It's about creature comforts that Americans are used to that you trade in for a different kind of life in Europe - WHICH IS FINE.

The differences are fine. They will just take some getting used to - because they are DIFFERENT, that's all. You have to get used to planning what you're going to wear in advance because it takes 2 Whole Days for your clothes to dry in the winter. They are easy adjustments for me, but I came from NYC where amenities aren't a thing for most people. Italy was the first place I ever had a dishwasher as an adult. Italy was the first place I had a washing machine in my apartment as an adult. In NYC I stored my air conditioners in a closet in the winter. So European living was an upgrade for me and less expensive. For someone coming from middle America used to a certain, much bigger and more convenient way of living, it will take some getting used to.

But your food tasting much better and free healthcare is more than worth it.

[quote]What's wrong with having a washing machine in the kitchen? That was accepted 1950s US house design for a while

I grew up with a washing machine in the kitchen, and no dryer. It was a four rooms flat in a three story house. We had a clothes line accessed via a window in room that was an enclosed back porch.. Our washing machine was an old Maytag wringer type that we had until the late 60s. I was 26 in my second apartment until I lived in a house that had a washer and dryer.

[quote] You will NOT have a dryer.

My apartment in Italy had an Ariston washer/dryer combo and it was fine. AND it was in a small room of its own.

I later moved to another place with no washer or dryer, but Italy does have laundromats you know.

Hilarious! Potential refugees ruling out a safe haven because of appliance placement. Do some of you read what you write before hitting the Post button?

[quote]I later moved to another place with no washer or dryer, but Italy does have laundromats you know.

Aside from laundromats, two things are more common in many parts of Europe: drop off laundry service, and domestic workers. Where I live many middle class people who live rather modestly have a domestic worker in for a half day twice a week. Typically they do laundry interspersed with cleaning floors, kitchens, and bathrooms. It's no so expensive nor atypical that people give a lot of thought to it.

Laundry is often outsourced through a drop off service or in home workers.

[quote]Where I live many middle class people who live rather modestly have a domestic worker in for a half day twice a week.

The famous "Fillipine". Yes, very common. I also had a woman come in once a week to clean. But the laundry I always did myself.

R555 did you read what I wrote before YOU posted? I don't think so.

R554 I have the washer dryer combo now. That is the closest I have gotten to having both in an apartment in my entire adult life. BUT it takes 6.5 hours! so I put it on overnight and set it so it's just about done when I wake up. The dryer uses steam heat, so your clothes still feel a big "humid" and they are wrinkled as hell, for sure. And your energy bill? Forget it. BUT I do use a laundromat for my sheets and towels. AGAIN MOST Americans are not used to going to laundromats. And even when I was living in NYC I never sent my laundry out for someone else to do. They wash everything in boiling hot water and what they don't destroy, they lose. I always do my own laundry.

But people are acting like I posted these things as dealbreakers. That I couldn't possibly live without the comforts I mentioned. That was not my intention. I am just saying as the poster way up stated, these are things people will have to get used to IF they have the balls to do what I did and pick up and move to Europe.

[quote]It's about creature comforts that Americans are used to that you trade in for a different kind of life in Europe - which is fine. But it does take some adjusting to.

[quote] I am just saying as the poster way up stated, these are things people will have to get used to IF they have the balls to do what I did and pick up and move to Europe.

My objection is to some kind of very American transactional comparison...of giving up a big ass American dryer in a proper laundry room as some of sacrifice or foray into primitive conditions.

Of course things are different. Everything is in some way different. Living life in a second language, for instance, would seem to me a much bigger issue than the size of one's refrigerator.

Watching news that is only with great rarity touches on some random act of violence is not a thing that is often perceived except on reflection, but not insignificant. The interactions of people in the street, in a bar or restaurant, attitudes and habits toward work and social life, the integration among family, friends, neighbors...all more different and more significant, I would say, than consumerist observations about American creature comforts and European sheet sizes and small cars and clothes dryers and the metric system. Moving to a new part of the world is not just about who has the biggest appliance or the biggest armoire filled with clothes. As you hinted, consumerism (and competition) exist at different levels. It just seems to me that creature comforts are the very least if it.

It's like switching from Farenheit to Celsius. Maybe it's confusing for 5 minutes, but then never again. It's such an insignificant thing, like the two usual sizes of spoons that are not the same as the two usual sizes in the US. If you got stuck on those things, you're missing the real fifferences.

[quote] For someone coming from middle America used to a certain, much bigger and more convenient way of living, it will take some getting used to.

Honey, spoiled rotten gold-star cunt gays are in NYC and LA too.

R559, is that word salad from practical experience or purely theoretical? Because what you think vs. what I know from first hand experience can be completely different

R560 if their are spoiled rotten NYC gold-star gay cunts then they are the absolutely worst. Because if they have a washer and dryer, a dishwasher and tons of space living in NYC, then they are filthy rich. NYC is one of the few places in America where having a dishwasher, or washer and dryer in your unit can denote wealth. Trump Tower has apartments for 7 million dollars and no washer and dryers in the unit.

The things I have listed previously are not be all end alls. Again they are not dealbreakers. They are creature comforts. People can live without creature comforts. And creature comforts vary from country to country. Some of ones Americans are used to, they will have to learn to live without if they intend to live in Europe. What's so hard to understand about that? And NO one is saying that makes anywhere else backwards. I personally think Americans would be MUCH happier if they could only learn to live without so much stuff. It's not necessary.

[quote] People can live without creature comforts.

Not privileged, spoiled American gays.

by the way R559, you never completely get used to switching from Fahrenheit to Celsius just as you know fully get used to switching from a 12 hr clock to a 24 hr one. You are constantly doing conversions in your head, forever.

R561 is one of the typical Dataloungers who hisses loudly but whose English leaves a lot to be desired.

Yes, r564. I would not want to hang out with him when I'm in Europe.

[quote]by the way [R559], you never completely get used to switching from Fahrenheit to Celsius just as you know fully get used to switching from a 12 hr clock to a 24 hr one. You are constantly doing conversions in your head, forever.

That was certainly not the case with me.

Depends on how old you are. Younger people adapt easier. I remember when I would look at pictures of the Cotswold and I loved the atmospheric thatched roofed cottages and estates, and the cobblestones etc. Then years later we went on a day tour to the Cotswold, Bath, and Stonehenge. As we examined the roofs of the cottages our guide talked about how the mice nested and reproduced in those thatched roofs and a lot of the houses were infested. It was a common problem. I never looked at it the same way again.

We used the 24-hour "clock" in the military, other wise known as "military time." And when I was stationed in West Germany, I got used to converting miles to "klicks," i.e., kilometers.

But I'm sure I'll have a problem with F to C. I have a few old thermometers around the house that I occasionally look at to try to familiarize myself, so I'm trying to get used to it, and there's some formula that approximates a quick conversion (that I don't remember), but it will be tricky.

And Panama is on Eastern Standard time all year long, but I guess there's nothing tricky about that. The days are always about 12.5 hours long, the nights are always about 11.5 hours long. That may take some getting used to.

But virtually every rental unit (unless it was just renting a room) I looked at online had a stacked W/D combo and a big fridge. I guessed that's why, when I talked to a Costa Rican guy at my hotel about Panama, he scorned it, saying Panama was "too American."

I linked to an apartment in a complex that has it's own W/D, AC, and "American" refrigerator. Cheap, too! The price is in American dollars.

[quote]R559, is that word salad from practical experience or purely theoretical? Because what you think vs. what I know from first hand experience can be completely different

What you know from your first-hand experience is only that: *your* first-hand experience. Not fact, not even expertise except your own. I have my own practical experience moving from the US to Europe when Obama was president. And aside from the two of us there are a few others at least. In my case it's just that my observations are only that, observations, or some occasional factual point, not Top 5 Universal Truths of American Culture Shock Abroad.

[quote]by the way R559, you never completely get used to switching from Fahrenheit to Celsius just as you know fully get used to switching from a 12 hr clock to a 24 hr one. You are constantly doing conversions in your head, forever.

From my own practical experience, no. I appreciate that that may be your experience (and I have stumbled over dumber, simpler things on both continents), but it's hardly a difficult adjustment that plagues everyone. You use the universal "you" to describe your very personal experience.

R568 we switched currency from pounds, shillings and pence to the Australian dollar and cents then a couple of years later Australia joined the rest of the world by switching to the metric system then a couple of years later much (but not all) of the country adopted daylight saving.

It was the latter that caused the most outcry with crusty old farmers talking about cows getting confused and their wives worrying about their curtains fading.

I rarely do the C/F conversion these days as the older generation are dying out. I know that 100F is hot and 40C is bloody hot but I can no longer convert miles into kilometres because I don’t have to while pounds and ounces are a mystery to me but only when I’m YouTubing Ina Garten.

C to F isn't hard. I do it in my head when I need to.

Senior Lesbian, since the Panamanian days stay the same length throughout the year, you’ll be delighted to know that you will soon be able to tell the time just by the position of the sun. Not exactly, but within a half hour or so. The downside is there won’t be much of a twilight.

The good news is apparently I’m already living a European life while still in the US. My washer is next to the back door and basically in the kitchen. I haven’t used a dryer in two decades (bad for your clothes). I never use the dishwasher either, hardly seems worth it for one person. I’d shop every day if I could and I have in the past but now the supermarket is farther away and the bus is slow. I cook on an electric stove and run fans in the summer, not an air conditioner. But I guess I’d want an elevator if I lived on the (US) third floor again.

House Hunters International had another show this week about a gay couple moving to Puerto Vallarta. You still get a lot for your money there.

Has anyone lived in PV before, or know someone who does? What's it like?

r573 sounds poor.

r563, what is so hard with a 24hr clock? For film/tv, we have go by military time, but the added bonus of dividing the hour into 6ths, for easier accounting (it's easier subtracting/adding 1-6 than 1-60). So say we have a call time of 5:18, it would be 5.3 on the callsheet. I've know people who have been working for decades in the industry, and they still can't compute using our system.

I don't have trouble with a 24 hour clock, but celsius bothers me.

Not thinking about moving out of the US but possibly moving back to Blue Chicago.

R576, I never said it was hard. Of course I can figure it out. I am never sitting there wondering what time it is. It's just that your brain still has to make the adjustment and it's not something you feel in your body really ever. Like I know 15:00 is 3pm. But My brain still has to make that conversion. It is becoming better now, but still it just doesn't come to me like say "It's 10pm, do you know where you're children are?' And on top of that Italians WILL use both. If you're making a reservation somewhere they will either say "alle 7" or "alle 19." They use both for PM times.

Celsius you double and add 30. That is very rough, quick calculation for Fahrenheit. But someone saying it's 36 outside is not the same to me as saying its 100. I instantly get wow, 100 degrees.

Again, it's not impossible or a dealbreaker or anything along those lines - as people KEEP trying to make out what I said to be.

R559, this is what threw me, what I called word salad:

[quote]Watching news that is only with great rarity touches on some random act of violence is not a thing that is often perceived except on reflection, but not insignificant.

I never presented anything I had to say as fact. My initial posts were in direct reference to rental apartments in Europe and what you can expect. So obviously there are bigger challenges than "consumerist observations about American creature comforts and European sheet sizes and small cars and clothes dryers" as you put it. But I was not addressing those issues in a apartment rental conversation.

Alll I want to say is if you're serious about moving to another country learn the language. Seriously. It's the least you can do. They will appreciate it and treat you better.

Look at this bullshit -- did any of you see this anywhere else? Trump fucking sent US troops to Panama!!!

I wouldn't be surprised if Panama refuses to process my visa. I certainly wouldn't let more Americans come in.

This fucker -- everything he touches dies.

God that’s terrible timing SL.

Story of my life, R583. But thanks for thinking of me.

If, God forbid, Panama doesn't work out, Ecuador is a great. Just avoid troubled areas near the coast (especially Guayaquil). Cuenca has a great expat community. Like Panama, they are on the US dollar and is very easy to qualify for a visa. I can't wait for this Trump nightmare to end!

Thanks for the info, R585. But I really don't want to live in an "expat community." As I told Panamanians who suggested I live in Boquete, I said, "Why would I come all the way to Panama to live around Americans? I can do that at home!"

Most countries don't want old people.

Do tell, R587!

I'll wait.

R587 I don't know, they certainly seem eager to have the "old people's" money. Just about every country in South and Central America offers a retirement visa to anyone that has a passive monthly income of $1K to $2K a month. Social Security alone covers it for most people.

Not anymore R589. Social Security is to be sacrificed for Elon

In most countries elderly people are respected and multi generational households are the norm. Grandma lives with the family.

[quote]Elder senior LEZ I can't wait for hurricane season fucking muff eating bitch, have fun! Insane cunts on a gay men's website, I ask again, WHY CAN'T YOU FIND A LEZZIE PLACE to cause trouble on? Take BabyDyke and Torta the cunt with you, what the hell do t you understand, perhaps you have been run out already? Can you swim?

Wow -- who is [bold]this[/bold] freak? Glad I have him blocked, but I was cleaning and found his posts.

And, one more time for the cheap seats, I was here lo these many years ago when there was a lesbian section, a gossip section, and a politics section. Apparently, you were not.

Can I show you the door?

R592 Crazy nastiness! Keep him blocked.

I think Trump is aging Americans via exhaustion. Of him.

R592 SL dickheads will be dickheads, especially when they’re drunk misogynist dickheads.

Continue to ignore - and keep us posted with how you progress with Panama.

[quote]In most countries elderly people are respected and multi generational households are the norm. Grandma lives with the family.

This hasn't been the case for ages in America considering tons of people do not even live close to their family. My mom lives in Ohio, my brother in Atlanta with his wife and kid, my dad and step-mom in Florida and my younger brother and sister both live in LA and I live in Italy. We couldn't be more spread out. Whereas in Italy I have noticed people live in the city they grew up in or at least not far from it. People don't live far from family. That's why it's hard to break into friend groups here because these people have been friends their entire lives. And considering Italy is just a little bit bigger than Florida, someone say living in Tampa is not that far from their parents in Miami.

True for some Americans, R596, but hardly standard. The linked article is from 2015 but there's also this from census.gov

[quite]Nearly six in 10 young adults live within 10 miles of where they grew up, and eight in 10 live within 100 miles, according to a new study by researchers at the U.S. Census Bureau and Harvard University. [July 2022]

Most Americans live very near their mother and/or the place where they grew up.

In Southern Europe the there are established lines of family succession/inheritance, with or without a will. While it is possible to deviate from these rules, it's unusual to do so. The presumption is that the parents house also belongs to their children and to their children's families. Many houses even have some division to allow for multiple generations under the same roof.

The presumption of inheritance and shared property is different, but Americans are far less spread out from their families than personal experience sometimes suggests.

R 597 "Nearly six in 10 young adults live within 10 miles of where they grew up, and eight in 10 live within 100 miles,"

Boy am I an exception to this rule. That said, when I was growing up, my maternal grandmother lived with us virtually my entire childhood and my paternal grandmother lived down the street (about a half mile away). She ate dinner with our immediate family almost every night in her old age. Both of my grandmothers were widowed. It was like something out of a Norman Rockwell painting.

Part 2, if anyone cares to continue

Maybe Australia. I don’t know enough but a former neighbor moved their decades ago and never left.