THEATRE GOSSIP #580: The "All In" Edition

Previous thread.

No talk of Gypsy or Audra is allowed in this thread.

In other news, do we think there will be any surprise Broadway announcements? Will Ragtime end up coming in?

GYPSY Audra GYPSY Audra GYPSY Audra GYPSY Audra. GYPSY Audra GYPSY Audra GYPSY Audra GYPSY Audra GYPSY Audra GYPSY Audra GYPSY Audra GYPSY Audra

OPERATIC VOICE AUDRA bump

Seth Rudetsky says there is a 95% chance Ragtime is coming in and THIS SEASON. Make of that what you will.

Audra in 110 in the Shade.

Amazing performance

RAGTIME is not coming in this season. It will be Lear "oh for god sakes stop crying" DeBonneset's premier show at LCT in the Fall.

Agreed that Audra was wonderful in 110 IN THE SHADE, and a major reason why is that she was perfectly cast in that role from a vocal standpoint, rather than miscast as she is in GYPSY.

Just wanted to add, the comment in the previous thread "Why would anyone want to see yet another carbon copy Rose?" is what's known as a straw man argument, because NO ONE said that's what they wanted. And as at least one poster noted, the women who played Rose in the Broadway revivals were in no way carbon copies of Merman or of any of their predecessors, but what they all had in common was that they all sang the score in the style in which it was written and intended to be sung.

Audra's performance is what Hollywood wags would call "brave."

How bad is that GYPSY double truck in today's NYTimes. Looks like it was designed by the yearbook staff.

Is All In doing good business? I can't imagine spending lots of money to see that kind of crap. I wouldn't watch most (well, really any) of those people on TV for free.

All In was doing Huge business will Mulaney. We'll see if the numbers hold up with Miranda. People are obsessed with celebs, even when they do lazy ass shit like this.

For the record, I wasn't trying to bring down Audra. The thread of my argument was when someone said Megan Hilty had never created a role in a hit. So I was defending Megan.

And no one said Audra has never made a show a success. The discussion was about CREATING A ROLE in a success. Of course, Carousel was a success.

Also- Audra does use an operatic voice in "Together." When I hit B flat, Ooooh!" The Oooo is a high operatic b flat.

Speaking of Sutton having the wrong voice type for a role, there was The Music Man.

Don't y'all miss a good Follies conversation?

Wait now operatic singers don't enunciate?

Maybe Sally Bowles should sing in an operatic voice because why would anyone want to see a carbon copy Sally?

[quote]Speaking of Sutton having the wrong voice type for a role, there was The Music Man.

Yes, when I made my other comment, I assumed this went without saying :-)

[quote]Maybe Sally Bowles should sing in an operatic voice because why would anyone want to see a carbon copy Sally?

:-)

Sondheim didn't just write lyrics for GYPSY. He pretty much wrote most of "Rose's Turn."

And melodically, Rose's Turn consists of...

Follies conversation: It was unfortunately canceled at Pasadena Playhouse. It's too bad they weren't somehow able to go on with a show.. When there's a disaster, we need more theater, not less. Broadway reopened two days after 9/11.

“Operatic” is being used to dismiss McDonald’s performance the same way “kewpie doll” was used to dismiss Bernadette Peters. Which is to say, by not engaging with the performance at all. In the last thread, we had someone watching from the balcony casually dismissing the acting of the most recognized stage performer in Broadway history.

[quote] Sondheim didn't just write lyrics for GYPSY. He pretty much wrote most of "Rose's Turn."

So THAT's why I can't hum it.

^ which must have been rear mezz, since the Majestic doesn’t have a balcony

And obviously, R23, both Styne and Sondheim had Merman's style of belting in mind when they wrote Rose's songs. "But I-I-I-I-I at least gotta try," for example, was not written with a soprano voice in mind.

Re "Rose's Turn," I think the new music in it includes the "Some people got it and make it pay" section, also the music that goes with the lyrics "Hold your hats and Halleluja," and maybe one or two other brief moments that Sondheim presumably wrote. The rest consists of various musical themes already in the show, written by Styne, but put together in a very exciting and dramatic way.

110 in the Shade is the only time I've seen Audra live. She was sensational. And we got sexy little Bobby Steggert as a bonus.

On the remote chance of a last-minute Ragtime, where would it go?

Good question, R31. The Palace would have been the obvious choice, but it's now booked for a two-month run of GLENGARRY GLEN ROSS, of all things.

I will admit that I didn't get the Audra love until I saw her in person

Saw the understudy for Thomas Middleditch in Eureka Day last night. His name is Joe Carroll, and he’s a cutie with a nice butt. Nothing like Middleditch in terms of personality quirks, though. Even though I didn’t see Middleditch, I can picture exactly how he would have played the role.

An interesting take:

[quote]Also- Audra does use an operatic voice in "Together." When I hit B flat, Ooooh!" The Oooo is a high operatic b flat.

quelle horreur!!

The silliness about carbon copy Roses was because a poster said that every Rose before Audra belted the whole score so Audra's portrayal was incorrect. So why would anyone demand that every Rose must sing it the same?

[quote]both Styne and Sondheim had Merman's style of belting in mind when they wrote Rose's songs. "But I-I-I-I-I at least gotta try," for example, was not written with a soprano voice in mind.

Not this BS again?

Who cares what Styne and Sondheim had in mind? Must we follow exactly what we think they had in mind (even though they never listed anywhere what they had in mind)?

It's like SCOTUS invoking originalism when it's convenient and abandoning it when it's not.

I will admit it makes a huge difference where you sit in the theatre for such a nuanced performance. Sure, everyone plays to the balcony--but the quietly emotional moments really hit the audience that sits closest.

The new choreography in Gypsy stands up just fine. Tulsa's solo is incredible and really makes use of the actors dancing strengths

[quote]“Operatic” is being used to dismiss McDonald’s performance the same way “kewpie doll” was used to dismiss Bernadette Peters.

No, r26, it isn't. It's being used to describe her sound.

[quote] How bad is that GYPSY double truck in today's NYTimes. Looks like it was designed by the yearbook staff.

I’m baffled by the posters around town for Operation Mincemeat. I saw the show in London, and I absolutely loved it. I think it’s the same poster art that was used in London, but I don’t think a few black squiggles set against a yellow background will make sense to theatergoers here in the US.

[quote]the women who played Rose in the Broadway revivals were in no way carbon copies of Merman or of any of their predecessors, but what they all had in common was that they all sang the score in the style in which it was written and intended to be sung.

in one breath you say they weren't carbon copies and in the next you say they must sing it in a carbon copy way because it MUST be sung that way. Make up your mind.

[quote]Wait now operatic singers don't enunciate?

Imagine a singer not enunciating. Disgusting. Must have been a terrible flop and is now Walmart greeter.

I saw Joe Carroll in BANDSTAND and one or two other shows, and can attest that he is indeed a cutie. Also very talented as both an actor and a musician.

[quote]r30 = 110 in the Shade is the only time I've seen Audra live. She was sensational.

It's written for a legit soprano.

R38, that's your opinion. Some of us believe that Broadway composers write songs for the characters in their shows with a particular type of sound in mind, at least sometimes. Do you honestly not believe that Richard Rodgers specifically wanted a young soprano sound for Laurey, Julie Jordan, etc., and that he would never have accepted Broadway belt singers like Sutton Foster in those roles? Please answer this specific question honestly, because I don't see how it's any different from the argument we're having about how Rose in GYPSY is supposed to sound.

I know that many people can’t stand the sound of Ethel Merman, but opening night of Gypsy is my one time machine show that I would go back to see. That said, Audra was amazing when I saw her during previews. One of the best acted and sung versions of Rose I have seen. And I saw Lansbury.

[quote]The women who played Rose in the Broadway revivals were in no way carbon copies of Merman or of any of their predecessors, but what they all had in common was that they all sang the score in the style in which it was written and intended to be sung.

[quote]In one breath you say they weren't carbon copies and in the next you say they must sing it in a carbon copy way because it MUST be sung that way. Make up your mind.

R43, I'm sorry to have to phrase this harshly, but are you really so ignorant that you don't understand the huge difference between those two things? To pick only one example of hundreds, Julie Andrews, Christine Andreas, and Melissa Errico all sang "I Could Have Danced All Night" in a soprano register as written, but or course that doesn't mean they sounded the same. And I would say there's an even greater variation of sound among belt voices -- for example, Merman, Lansbury, Daly, Lavin, Peters, LuPone. The problem is not that I can't make up my mind, but that you somehow don't get what I'm saying.

Remember when Tyne Daly got a DUI before her Gypsy started rehearsals and everyone was calling it Tipsy. You don't? Well, I do.

R50, I do!

And at some point during the Pre-Broadway tour, Tyne busted Fran Weissler in her dressing room, going through Tyne’s purse to make sure she didn’t have a flask!

From a friend in the show.

And when the show played the St Louis Muny prior to Broadway, a clueless usher tried to stop Tyne from coming down the side aisle for her entrance on opening night; The Muny opens their productions cold, meaning there MAY be a run-through on Monday afternoon (if it doesn’t rain). 😂

Dear r25:

Broadway shows were able to resume a couple of days after 9/11 because most of the people who work and thrive on Broadway didn't see their homes and entire lives decimated by a fire. You can't really expect Pasadena Playhouse to put on a production of Follies after the devastation that's occurred and still occurs right in their neighborhood. I'm sure Follies is the last thing on their minds right now, both the artists and the audiences.

Based on Instagram reports, Caroline Bowman gave a spectacular first and last, one and only performance as Norma Desmond this afternoon. I'm glad they let her do it before she left for SMASH.

I like Betty Gilpin but I can’t imagine her or anyone besides Cole Escola as Mary.

Bowman

I hope this works: Here's a really nice photo of the aforementioned Joe Carroll :-)

^^^Sorry, that's not what I meant to link to, but if you Google "Joe Carroll actor," you'll find some really nice photos of him, including one really hot one of him playing the drums.

[Quote] Wait now operatic singers don't enunciate?

I’m particularly wonderful at it!

Audra was in "A Raisin in the Sun" with Diddy. No opera-voice there.

Everyone (mostly) here hates Audra so I’ll proffer that her first lead musical performance in “a new musical” written for her, Marie Christine, was a towering, fearless achievement. FYI Tony Winner Anthony Crivello ramming her with ass out put Slave Play to shame, last century. It is not a fun or easy piece, but even the nastiest queen alive (now that Arthur Laurent’s is dead), Ethan Mordden has written about how it is a masterful piece that should and will be done. The OG LCT production that I saw in previews was daring, scary, sad, and also shocking - nothing like that has been done on Broadway for a long time (and no, swept away wasn’t in this league). Audra deserves respect for her full actorly commitment to a project which is guided by the director in charge. End.

She's no Virginia Capers, r59.

[quote]Everyone (mostly) here hates Audra

Nobody here *hates* Audra, r60.

r35, interestingly in the comments someone mentions that, while Audra used more head voice at the start of the run, she uses much more belting now and head voice sparingly.

R60, that was the only Audra Broadway musical performance I missed. I still regret it

Medea is such a downer, r60.

[quote] Ethan Mordden has written about how it is a masterful piece that should and will be done

As I remember, he said that opera houses would be fighting each other for a chance to perform it. But he said that more than 30 years ago, and there haven’t many signs of that since. I love Mordden’s writing, but a seer he ain’t.

[Quote] Wait now operatic singers don't enunciate?

There’s a reason operas in English also get surtitles.

Can the Joe Carroll Troll please calm down? He seems to be a very nice-looking young man but hardly swoonworthy re DL standards.

I did appreciate the break from the Audra talk, so thanks for that.

[quote] Ethan Mordden has written about how it is a masterful piece that should and will be done As I remember, he said that opera houses would be fighting each other for a chance to perform it. But he said that more than 30 years ago, and there haven’t many signs of that since. I love Mordden’s writing, but a seer he ain’t.

There’s not a tune you can hum.

Broadway loves turning movies into stage musicals...even when it's a piece of material that doesn't really work as a stage musical...

I'm surprised no one has attempted "All That Jazz". In the right hands, it would be amazing.

I know Ivo van Hove has his detractors but he's actually someone who could make it work.

R60, you're almost tempting me to given MARIE CHRISTINE another chance via the cast album, but when I saw the show, I disliked it intensely.

[quote]Can the Joe Carroll Troll please calm down?

There was one (1) post about Joe Carroll from someone else, to which I responded twice -- and twice only because my first attempt to link to a specific photo of him did not work. So why don't YOU calm down? And while you're at it, piss off.

[quote]In the comments someone mentions that, while Audra used more head voice at the start of the run, she uses much more belting now and head voice sparingly.

That wasn't my experience when I saw the show only a few nights ago. I would say she sang in her soprano register roughly half the time.

To the person who posted about Richard Thomas in the previous thread. Really? You know Richard Thomas hires escorts while he's in town but you don't fucking know he lives "in town"?

Try again.

Just wanted to report that Audra had two relatively minor but notable screw-ups in GYPSY the other night.

1) The line in Act I is supposed to be something like "And then I promise to marry you. I even promise to keep my promise." But she said "And then I'll marry you. I even promise to keep my promise." Which obviously wrecks the joke.

2) In Rose's turn, the stammering on "Momma.....mommma" is supposed to be immediately preceded by "Momma's lettin' go," the point being that the idea of Rose letting go of Louise/Gypsy is what precipitates her breakdown. But Audra switched the lines, so that what she sang right before "Momma....momma" was one of the other lines, maybe "Momma's got the suff" or "Momma's doin' fine." In fact, I believe she may not have sung "Momma's lettin' go" at all, though I'm not sure about that.

So the desperation to whine about Audra now means we're going to be getting reports of minor flubs from each performance? A new level of tedium has been unlocked.

r60 has to be Michael John LaChiusa.

R76-Ha! Wait until The Last Five Years starts previews.

Anyone see Queen of the Mist? La Testa is reviving it in NJ and I'm tempted to go.

Queen/Mist

Live at the Paterson Falls?

If you listen closely R29, you'll notice that the melody on "hold your hats and hallelujah" etc. during Rose's Turn is a variation on "once I was a schleppa/now I'm Miss Mazeppa," with the rhythm changed.

The Muny hasn't hosted in tour in 20 years, and they don't do the overnight techs anymore.

Marie Christine was a real chore. And I’m a fan of all involved.

Sigh. We really are going to be cursed with weeks and weeks of Audra/Gypsy talk, aren't we?

[quote]Don't y'all miss a good Follies conversation?

At this point, I miss a good "Subways Are for Sleeping" conversation.

[quote]R38 Who cares what Styne and Sondheim had in mind? Must we follow exactly what we think they had in mind?

Exactly. The founding fathers didn’t have women or Blacks in mind when they wrote “All men are created equal,” but what right minded person cares?

Has anyone on Broadway played a role as long as R. Lowe has done Mary Sunshine in Chicago? I can't imagine how mind numbingly boring it must be to do the same thing 8 times a week for 15+ years, but I guess job security is nothing to sniff at.

Well, NOT doing that role drove someone to suicide so......

Cranston!

I'm afraid so R85......it's depressing.

r88 Also in Chicago, Donna Marie Asbury who played June for 20 years

Is Idina's new show Redwood gonna stir up any discussion?

Or, Denzel and Jake in Othello? Will Denzel need an earpiece to "remember" his lines? Will Jake have a new gal pal for bearding purposes while he fucks some chorus boy?

Same thing with George Clooney and his Bway debut...will his lovely wife Anal be on hand or will George find anal in other ways?

Will Smash be one?

Will The Last Five Years finally be successful or will people realize it's a fucking bore?

What about DL Favorite Jonathan Groff...will his Bobby Darin be one for the ages or will the shark bite it in the ass?

And, will Jinkx Monsoon finally become the first non binary/queer/transy B'way superstar with "Penzance!"?

All wonderful things to discuss!!!!!

[quote]All wonderful things to discuss!!!!!

Don’t forget Joe Carroll’s ass!

R93. I fear the Tony race between Audra and Nicole....It will be awful and regardless of the winner, I am afraid the discussion will last forever.

[quote]fucking Audra

Pics please.

R92 - oh! Interesting. Donna was my very first Velma in the first national tour. I think it was opposite the fabulous Charlotte d'Amboise.

I just remember Marie Christine being met with a big wide yawn when it opened.

Though Anthony Crivello's hairy chest was very hot on the poster. WHET Crivello?

Marie Christine was the first time I didn't like Audra in something. She was just a big girl rather than a woman. She could have knocked it out of the park maybe ten years later, but not then. Of course, she could sing it.

[quote]R76, you're free to skip over or ignore posts you don't deem worthy of your time. You're also free to piss off.

P.S. Although I would agree that the flubs I noted are relatively minor, they did remove two nice moments in the book and lyrics.

[quote]If you listen closely [R29], you'll notice that the melody on "hold your hats and hallelujah" etc. during Rose's Turn is a variation on "once I was a schleppa/now I'm Miss Mazeppa," with the rhythm changed.

Yes, of course, you're absolutely right. Thanks, I missed that one. And the music of "Some people got it and make it pay" is clearly inspired by the music of "Some People," but transformed quite a bit, presumably by Sondheim.

[quote]Sigh. We really are going to be cursed with weeks and weeks of Audra/Gypsy talk, aren't we?

Can you attempt to articulate why this bothers you so much? GYPSY was already one of the most newsworthy and most recent theater openings, and then it got all that extra publicity because they had to cancel a week of performances. Also, since the show only opened on Dec. 19 and they then had to cancel that week, a lot of people are just now getting around to seeing it, which partly accounts for the continued discussion of it.

So, to phrase the question differently: What's your damage?

I can't help but think that Styne took the bare bones of Rose's Turns after Robbins and SS had put it together and fiddled with it to smooth it over and add some ideas of his own. Hard to believe it emerged in that one session as a fully-formed masterpiece.

[quote]Who cares what Styne and Sondheim had in mind? Must we follow exactly what we think they had in mind?

[quote]Exactly. The founding fathers didn’t have women or Blacks in mind when they wrote “All men are created equal,” but what right minded person cares?

Right, sure, because those two things are very much the same.

(Incredible, the false equivalencies some people can come up with...)

Well, R88, R. Lowe (now apparently billed as Ryan Lowe) has not been the ONLY person to play Mary Sunshine during the run, though I guess he/they have done the lion's share of performances.

r102, I'm not the poster you addressed but the "damage" as I see it is an extremely tiresome repetition of the same opposing points made over and over and over and over again. When clearly the opposition will never agree. Move on already! You're not making points or changing anyone's minds

And yes, I do try to skip over most of those posts, but it's become overwhelming. And yes, I have brought up other subjects to divert from it.

[quote]I can't help but think that Styne took the bare bones of Rose's Turns after Robbins and SS had put it together and fiddled with it to smooth it over and add some ideas of his own. Hard to believe it emerged in that one session as a fully-formed masterpiece.

Maybe, but why is that hard to believe, since Sondheim and Robbins were the ones who put it together, based on music already composed by Styne? Don't you think those two were capable of coming up with a fully-formed masterpiece of a number on their own?

Whatever, R106. I don't find it at all odd or annoying that the most recent, big Broadway opening, which happened less than a month ago and canceled one week of performances immediately thereafter, AND which has one of Broadway's biggest stars in the leading role, should still be a major topic of discussion.

Same girl, same, R106.

Any word on Show/Boat?

I got tickets through TDF for Friday night...

I reading very bad reports about Show/Boat. Lots of people leaving at intermission. But I wonder if some people just don't "get" Target Margin? I've see more than a dozen of their shows an like their approach.

R110 I have a ticket for Saturday. From what I’ve read…the music is still the highlight but people are confused by the race sashes people wear and the doubling of parts so the story is hard to keep track of.

Musicals don't need an "approach."

I'm listening to Caroline Bowman audios from SB on YouTube. She sounds great but JFC I wish the audience would have just let her sing instead of screaming in the middle of the songs. Back in the day, we respectfully let the artist finish before we showed our appreciation.

Imagine how badly a show would have suck to not receive multiple standing ovations.

Well, downtown doesn't go all-in for standing ovations, THANK FUCKING GOD!

Not giving standing ovations is the new not tipping.

That new Show/Boat sounds dreadful. And it opens with a new song not written by Jerome Kern?

R26 Al Jolson?

I've worked with Bowman. Fantastic person and really hard working. Deserves her big Broadway break.

[quote] The founding fathers didn’t have women or Blacks in mind when they wrote “All men are created equal,” but what right minded person cares?

SCOTUS cares and will claim originalism to make Blacks return to slavery

[quote] "And then I'll marry you. I even promise to keep my promise."

The joke is still there

No it isn't, R122. According to the script, Rose tells Herbie that, after she gets what she wants for her girls, "I promise I'll marry you. I even promise to keep my promise." That version is cute and funny, the other version isn't.

r123 No one cares about a one off flub

What’s going on over at Gypsy? This thread has gone strangely quiet for the last 30 seconds.

r125 Dinner time at the nursing home

Have Chipotle sales risen at the Broadway branch?

You know the people who overhear and then repeat stupid jokes without understanding them? Meet r127. Seriously, the “Broadway branch” of Chipotle?

Audra likes Chipotle. Audra's on B'way.

Pretty basic, really.

[quote] That version is cute and funny, the other version isn't.

Audra must be fired immediately!!

Target Margin productions are often entirely full of shit.

[quote]The new choreography in Gypsy stands up just fine. Tulsa's solo is incredible and really makes use of the actors dancing strengths.

R40 I think it was established in a previous thread that the choreography for this number changed during previews. A lot of folks complained early on that Louise never got to join Tulsa in his dance at the end, while others said that in their later performance, she did join Tulsa. Others complained that Tulsa's choreography was a mess in general. While no one from the production has confirmed it, it sounds like the creative team heard the outcry from the masses and restaged the number.

Louise's twerking took me out of the story, but otherwise the dancing was fine.

R132, the choreography for "All I Need Is the Girl" may well have changed during previews, but Louise is still much less of a presence in the number than she was in the Robbins choreography. And though she does dance alongside Tulsa at the end, they never hold hands or make physical contact in any way, and she doesn't end up sitting on his knee as she did in the original.

I'd like to hear more about Target Margin

Why have the posts in this thread slowed down to a crawl? Maybe the people who have been chided for posting about GYPSY have been scared off, and no one else has anything else of interest to post about?

R136 You act like that's a bad thing.

And, up above, someone was defending the need to have Gypsy/Audra dominate the thread since she's a big star and it's a big show and there's some truth to that but the problem is when people just endlessly BICKER over the same things over and over and over. If you feel the need to do that, then start an "Audra/Gyspy" thread where you can be boring and argue amongst yourselves.

Which is good advice for any thread where people start arguing over some tangent that may or may not even relate to the main topic.

It might not spur much conversation, but here's the latest grosses. LEFT ON TENTH is going to limp to the finish line, even though it should have packed up already. I see that A WONDERFUL WORLD only has tickets available through the first weekend in May (smart move). Could MJ THE MUSICAL finally be running out of steam?

Awwwww, Wicked made only 2.4 million last week. What a come down.

I'd be shocked if Wonderful World made it to May.

There was a long line down 52nd Street and then around the corner of 8th Avenue and almost to 51st Street Saturday night for MJ THE MUSICAL. I miss the old days when we didn’t have to line up like cattle and instead just pushed our way en masse into the theater. When did lining up for Broadway theaters start?

R139, Wicked is still the #1 show by a big margin.

The good reviews are helping Gypsy find its footing.

r140, when it was necessary to walk through a metal detector.

Why are metal detectors necessary on B'way? Has there ever been an incident requiring them? Are they looking for Bloods and Crips going to see Audra?

Eureka Day canceled tonite due to illness in the company.

I could not have been more underwhelmed by Eureka Day. It was all so obvious and stage-y. What a claptrap!

I loved Eureka Day so much I cannot even fathom criticism of it, but to each his own.

I'm surprised that there isn't more discussion of MAYBE HAPPY ENDING. It's a terrific show on many levels and arguably the surprise artistic hit of the season. Given its Korean genesis, it certainly came from an unexpected place. And besides Darren Kriss, there are some good actors worthy of award nominations. And the production values - the sets, the lights... you get the idea. I'm still smiling at the fireflies.

I wonder how this gem came to be.

The folks who love Maybe Happy Ending really seem to love it.

[quote] And though she does dance alongside Tulsa at the end, they never hold hands or make physical contact in any way, and she doesn't end up sitting on his knee as she did in the original.

This make far more sense considering Tulsa elopes with June...

I've heard so many good things about Maybe Happy Endings that I almost want to see it. Lots of discounted tickets

R147 Because DL and the average Dler is confounded by successful endeavors that are unique, original, charming, and entertaining. If they can't find something to bitch about, they're at a loss for words.

[quote]....start an "Audra/Gyspy" thread where you can be boring and argue amongst yourselves.. Which is good advice for any thread where people start arguing over some tangent that may or may not even relate to the main topic.

But Audra/Gypsy is hardly "some tangent" that doesn't relate to the main topic. And since the show is a revival of one of the most beloved musicals ever written, with one of the biggest stars in the lead, and since it is the most recent Broadway show to open, I think it's only natural that it's still being discussed. Also, I don't agree with you that people are arguing the same points about it over and over, but even if there's some truth to that, it's probably because many people who are posting here have only very recently seen the show, since it opened less than a month ago and then had to cancel a week's worth of performances. THAT is my point.

At this very early point before a glut of new musicals open, it very much seems like "Maybe Happy Endings" is a front runner for lots of Tony Awards. At least, when it comes to nominations. Best Musical, Direction, Musical Direction, Book, Actor, all the design categories.

When are nominations released? I need to see Maybe Happy Endings before the rush

R152 Much of the Audra/Gypsy discussion is ENDLESS arguments over her voice and if it's proper for the role. And, it really feels like it's the same 3 or 4 people just rehashing this over and over again. It's boring as fuck to monopolize the thread with that.

That's MY point.

And, I'm done yakking about it because now the discussion over whether or not a topic is valid is attempting to take over, and THAT'S even more boring.

R154 Are you new here?

Tony Award nominations don't happen until early...May?

[quote]This makes far more sense, considering Tulsa elopes with June...

R149, in the original production, we, the audience, are convinced that Tulsa has the hots for Louise and sees the hidden talent that no one else sees. When they dance together at the end of ALL I NEED NOW IS THE GIRL, we see hope for the ugly duckling. That's why the last scene in the first act is so tragic - that Tulsa goes for the easy out - abandons Louise and elopes with June. Mama loses her star, and Louise loses her crush and her way out.

This moment is less impactful in the current production because the connection between Tulsa and Louise is downplayed. Louise obviously has a crush on Tulsa, but there's no hint that the feeling is mutual. Louise will be stuck with Mama, no matter what.

Here’s some insightful theater criticism (remember when we had that?) from Walter Kerr’s review of the Lansbury Gypsy. This is why the original choreography for Tulsa‘s number was so brilliant: “The crucial sequence the moment when we understand that Gypsy is capable of unexpected but apparently limitless dramatic expansion— probably comes in an alleyway, outside a stage door, while Louise sits with desperate eyes fixed on a male dancer. The dancer is in the process of building his own act ["All I Need Is the Girl"]. The girl who would like to be the girl is right there, her taut tomboy's face composed, her neglect entirely without self-pity. As the quite remarkable Zan Charisse plays (and refuses to primp) her, she seems to have had the braces removed from her teeth just yesterday, to be as sexless and as patiently pensive as a Rouault clown. Without the boy's noticing she is at last impulsively on her feet behind him and miming him exuberantly in a "flash finish." But, dancing perfectly, she doesn't look like his partner. For one thing, she is still wearing the brown felt trousers assigned to her in Baby June's act: she plays the hind legs of a cow. When we learn, a scene later, that the boy she has matched step for step has promptly run off with Baby June, we realize through our quite genuine dismay— how perfectly we've been set up for the fall. Playwright, composer, and librettist have, for us, glued two people in the number, then ripped them apart. After that, we can expect almost any degree of substance they care to give us in the second act.”

The problem with that criticism is that the dance sequence is such a minor part of the show. No one is invested in a relationship between Tulsa and Louise enough to be destroyed by the elopement. No other time do we see them close. We're suppose be devastated? At most, we're mildly surprised and quickly move on.

Neither staging, the original or the current one, is particularly impactful because we don't really about them as a couple

I disagree R159. The moment in Robbins’s choreography when Tulsa imagines how it will be when he “lifts” his partner in his arms, and Louise longingly mimes being lifted, unseen by Tulsa, is I think one of the most moving moments in the show.

Agreed, r159. I loved Benanti and Yazbek’s performances in the last revival, but that moment felt cheap and fake. Louise doesn’t want romance, she wants to belong.

[quote]Neither staging, the original or the current one, is particularly impactful because we don't really about them as a couple

R159, while I respect your opinion, I disagree. It only takes a moment for the audience, who sees the tomboy who doesn't know how old she is, to suddenly become a woman and an equal in a relatively short, choreographed number. We see it in Tulsa's eyes when he realizes that Loiuise is keeping up with him, step by step, and reaches out for her to join him. We see it when they fall into each other's arms at the end of the number, exhausted and exhilarated. We are not"invested in a relationship"; we have just discovered that a relationship is possible.

That doesn't happen in the current production, but I remember exactly what I thought and how I felt when I saw that exact moment in the movie. Night and Day.

You actually watched the GYPSY movie!?!

One of the great things about Gypsy, and also one of its great ironies, is that the entire show leads up to the big emotional finish with Mama crying out "When is it gonna be my turn?!?!? When will I be the Star!?!?!?" after a show where Mama is onstage pretty much the entire time and the constant center of attention, with her singing nearly every number in the show.

R159 uh, you couldn't be more wrong. Both the Tulsa number AND the much maligned "Little Lamb" are important moments in the show. One, we need a break from Rose. Two, the show is called GYPSY and while Mama Rose is the center of it all and gets nearly every song, it's still about her and Louise and their journey. We need those moments with Louise to explore her story and tie her journey in with Rose's.

Gypsy wouldn't be Gypsy and a great work of art without those scenes. If you dropped them, it would just be an irritating 2 hours of battleaxe Mama Rose bulldozing through things.

As for caring about Louise and Tulsa as a couple....you're not supposed to. Louise is the center of attention here...Tulsa's dance skills are a nice diversion but the emotion of the scene is what's important. If you're watching that scene and thinking, "gee, I hope Tulsa and Louise pair up and have a happy ending by the end of the show!" then you're really a moron and not paying attention.

[quote]We are not"invested in a relationship"; we have just discovered that a relationship is possible.

In that case, Tulsa and June's subsequent elopement seems more like a cheap theatrical trick than a moment of deep drama.

R163 Uh, why wouldn't someone watch the Gypsy movie? It's not perfect but it's actually quite good.

R165 Tulsa and June's elopement isn't supposed to be a moment of deep drama...it's based on fact. One of the rare moments IN the musical that has a pretty solid basis in reality. June really did run off with a male dancer and get married, largely to get away from Rose.

There's a reason it's a called "a fable". The vague outline of the show is based loosely in truth but most of the specific plot plots are...cobbled together from recollection and Gypsy Rose Lee's need to tell a story but one that hides the darker shit.

[quote]Tulsa and June's elopement isn't supposed to be a moment of deep drama...it's based on fact.

But June can't be Black!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The reason "Maybe Happy..." isn't catching fire is that most people admire it more than they enjoy it. It's very special, and precious, and because they are robots, it's really hard to engage fully. I also wished it had some better music. But there's much to admire -- but only in the head.

I truly love reading the smart and insightful comments in this thread by posters like r157, r160 and r162. And Walter Kerr, of course.

That kind of chat about GYPSY is just fine.

R169 = R157 = R160 = R162

So you're fine with the stuff you agree with? How shocking.

R38= They DID say it was what they had in mind. Jule Styne wrote the songs for Merman's voice, That is why there are extended notes: But AAAAAAAIIIII at least got a TRYYYYYYY. That was very specifically what Merman was good at. If the show had been written for Audra, it wouldn't have been written that way. So the most successful Roses have a belt that can handle those phrases. When I watched Audra in Gypsy, she couldn't sustain a belt- when she tried to- and ended up flat. Maybe it was an off night.

r43- There are certain demands for a role that all must meet and then from there, they can interpret. Would you want an operatic Sally Bowles? Or a counter-tenor as Joe in Show Boat?

Everyone I know who has seen Happy Ending had low expectations going in but are now raving about the show and the leads.

And those “demands for a role” can be stretched. And they change over time. God knows the last time a baritone role wasn’t sung by a tenor. Anyone singing like a true Rodgers soprano would now be put in the chorus.

[quote]They DID say it was what they had in mind. Jule Styne wrote the songs for Merman's voice

So only Merman or someone who sounds like Merman should sing it? I hate Merman

[quote]There are certain demands for a role that all must meet and then from there, they can interpret. Would you want an operatic Sally Bowles? Or a counter-tenor as Joe in Show Boat?

Audra is no where an operatic Rose

I'd let Audra do whatever the fuck she wants. She ends up doing something more incredible than you ever imagined.

That was her Rose for me.

The Tony nominations will be announced Thursday, May 1. They're two days later than usual because the eligibility cutoff extended three days. It was originally Thursday, April 24, and is now Sunday, April 27.

R147: "Maybe Happy Ending" had been floating around for awhile before making it to Broadway. It won the Richard Rodgers Award way back in 2017, under the title "What I Learned From People."

Josh Gad wrote an autobiography, and states that Casey Nicholaw was a horrible person to work for. Entertainment Weekly reported this, and then that article got pulled.

At any rate, a friend sent me the article before Entertainment Weekly pulled it:

In Josh's new memoir, "In Gad We Trust,"he's speaking out about his experience putting up the show.

“Our director, Casey, was a genuinely brilliant creative visionary and truly helped to make the show the giant hit it would go on to become. What he lacked, however, are social skills and anything resembling team-building leadership," alleging Casey created an "awful environment."

"To the best of my knowledge, he either did not like that I predated him on the project or that he was saddled with me, but to say he made every day completely unpleasant would be an understatement," Josh continued. "The best example I can give of his complete lack of leadership was the day after we won nine Tonys: we entered the theater to three pages of notes hung up on the bulletin board proclaiming how disappointed he was in all of us and the awful state of the show. That week, he brought us all in for rehearsals and proceeded to call me out in scene after scene telling me that every choice I was making was wrong."

"As a lead-up to my return to Broadway in Gutenberg! The Musical!, Casey was interviewed for a New York Times profile...[Casey] said this about [Book of Mormon costar Andrew Rannells] and me: 'Josh's comedy basically just says 'Watch me. Love me. Josh is just out there. Andrew knows how to hold himself with grace and dignity and just go for it.'" Josh called this quote from Casey "highly public and deeply hurtful." He also said this impacted his relationship with his co-star, Andrew Rannells. "He either intentionally or unintentionally constantly tried to pit me and Andrew against each other. And for the record, for a little bit, it worked," Josh shared. "I once confronted Andrew and said, 'I feel like you don’t have my back,' and Andrew took Casey's side and really hurt me. We didn’t speak for almost two weeks until I ultimately understood that it had nothing to do with Andrew and everything to do with the environment Casey had created."

Josh concluded by writing that Casey "has never once apologized for his inexplicable behavior and the awful environment he created in an otherwise loving space... Maybe he’ll read this and apologize, but after 13 years, I’m not holding my breath. You know where to reach me, Casey!"

Just need to say that Walter Kerr's analysis of the Gypsy scene was intelligent and articulate in a way that has long disappeared from our theater criticism. Rich had his days, and so did Brantley, but Kerr's work was unparalleled. Yes, he was a prude and a fuddyduddy and he didn't like Sondheim, but he could write like a dream—and sometime do so under a strict deadline.

People are analyzing Gypsy like it’s the fucking Cherry Orchard.

I wonder if Josh had any beef with Trey Parker or Matt Stone?

[quote] People are analyzing Gypsy like it’s the fucking Cherry Orchard.

Audra's next project, no doubt....

[quote] Yes, he was a prude and a fuddyduddy and he didn't like Sondheim,

And that woman he married.

A Little History on Talking Through the Overture (Archival Audio Examples from 1956 to 1981)

Sue me, but I'm enjoying the Gypsy discourse. And, I agree, where else am I going to read such insightful comments about the tiniest details of the show... like the Tulsa/Louise dance scene?

[quote][R132], the choreography for "All I Need Is the Girl" may well have changed during previews, but Louise is still much less of a presence in the number than she was in the Robbins choreography. And though she does dance alongside Tulsa at the end, they never hold hands or make physical contact in any way, and she doesn't end up sitting on his knee as she did in the original.

The radical "woke" liberals (who currently run Broadway) are pro-sex but are anti-romance and weirdly prudish about touching.

[quote]Agreed, [R159]. I loved Benanti and Yazbek’s performances in the last revival, but that moment felt cheap and fake. Louise doesn’t want romance, she wants to belong.

No, she definitely wanted romance from Tulsa, who was based on an actual chorus boy in the act that Louise had the hots for.

She loved to talk with him and watch him practice the choreography in the alley and got jealous when he and June would flirt.

And she was very heartbroken when she initially thought that he had eloped with June.

In real life, June ran off with another chorus boy, but the musical combined both boys into one composite character.

The 1962 movie made them two separate people again and Tulsa and Louise part amicably, like in real life.

Hmmm....people discuss Gypsy like it's "the fucking Cherry Orchard" because Gypsy is also great art. It IS The Cherry Orchard.

If you don't think so, well, that's on you...we all have our own levels of taste, or lack thereof, but from a critical and artistic perspective Gypsy is a classic piece of musical theater. There's a reason we're still discussing it so intently. It's worth talking about.

R181 yikes…that sounds rough.

There's a reason Casey's shows are so machinelike.

I heard it from the great costume designer Ann Roth, who had never worked with Casey N. but was "forced" on him by producer Scott Rudin for Book of Mormon, when she harrumphed: "No one else is allowed to be funny on his shows."

I've always adored Doris Day's rehearsal skirt at r186. Wanted one of my own as a gayling.

I feel sure Simplicity had a pattern, r195.

[quote] The 1962 movie made them two separate people again and Tulsa and Louise part amicably, like in real life.

Wait--but a poster above said the dance moment in the movie was so important because of the heartbreak that occurred when Tulsa ran away with June...

Gad has become a walking, sputtering clown.Watching him last night on Colbert was painful. He's certainly developed an over-inflated sense of himself and I can't watch him in anything anymore.

R163, even if you don't like the GYPSY movie overall, it certainly has many wonderful moments, including the vaudeville numbers, "All I Need Is the Girl," and "You Gotta Get a Gimmick."

I too disagree with R159, and also I would say the emotional power of "All I Need Is the Girl" and what happens in the following scene comes not so much because we care about Louise and Tulsa as a couple, but because it's another example of Louise being shunted aside, and also of her potential talent not being recognized.

Wow, I never bothered to look this up before! From Wikipedia:

"In December 1928, Havoc, in an effort to escape her overbearing mother, eloped with Bobby Reed, a boy in the vaudeville act. Weeks later after performing at the Jayhawk Theatre in Topeka, Kansas, on December 29, 1928, June's mother, Rose, reported Reed to the Topeka Police, and he was arrested. Rose pulled out a concealed gun when she met Bobby at the police station, intending to shoot him, but the gun didn't fire because the safety was on. She then physically attacked her son-in-law, and the police had to pry her off the hapless Reed. June subsequently left both her family and the act. Though the marriage didn't last long, the two remained friends."

Crazy. If the gun had gone off, there would have been no Gypsy Rose Lee and no Gypsy.

[quote]The reason "Maybe Happy..." isn't catching fire is that most people admire it more than they enjoy it. It's very special, and precious, and because they are robots, it's really hard to engage fully.

You really shouldn't state your opinion as if it's fact, especially not since so many people disagree with you. Nor should you presume to know how "most people" feel about the show.

[quote]The 1962 movie made them two separate people again and Tulsa and Louise part amicably, like in real life.

[quote]Wait--but a poster above said the dance moment in the movie was so important because of the heartbreak that occurred when Tulsa ran away with June...

Either way, Louise is heartbroken, because Tulsa leaves anyway. And because, in the movie, June runs off with another of the boys in the act, that gives us a very touching goodbye scene between Louise and Tulsa. Touching because she's obviously in love with him, even though it's not clear if he realizes that, and she will presumably never see him again.

I grew up on the movie so I do like the fact that Tulsa does not run off with June. When I saw the show, it just seemed a little too on the nose for me.

Read Early Havoc, r200.

The real Jean Kerr was a pretty witty gal herself: best-selling books, Broadway plays, including one of the longest-running comedies in Bway history, Mary Mary. The banter around that household must have been entertaining.

[quote]I grew up on the movie so I do like the fact that Tulsa does not run off with June. When I saw the show, it just seemed a little too on the nose for me.

Same here.

[quote]I heard it from the great costume designer Ann Roth, who had never worked with Casey N. but was "forced" on him by producer Scott Rudin for Book of Mormon, when she harrumphed: "No one else is allowed to be funny on his shows."

I don't understand this. Casey directs his shows, he isn't in them. So what is meant by "No one else is allowed to be funny on his shows?"

I really enjoyed Walter Kerr's thoughts on "All I Need is the Girl" as quoted above, but not to take anything away from him, I presume that was part of one of those Sunday-after-the-opening pieces, rather than being taken from a review that appeared the day after opening. For obvious reasons, there was opportunity for more detailed and insightful criticism in those articles that appeared later as follow-ups to the reviews by others that were published immediately after the press opening.

R181, that's amazing. Presumably, all the negative stuff about Nicholaw remains in Josh Gad's book even if the Entertainment Weekly article got pulled, so....what was the point of pulling the article?

At any rate, I'm still surprised whenever show business people trash each other in memoirs, interviews, etc. It seems to me there was a time, not so long ago, when to do something like that almost never happened, and was considered very bad form. I can think of lots of people who've behaved horribly towards me in my lifetime, but while I don't hesitate to tell those stories to friends, I don't think I would ever consider writing about them for public consumption, as there are so many good reasons NOT to do so.

[quote]The Tony nominations will be announced Thursday, May 1. They're two days later than usual because the eligibility cutoff extended three days. It was originally Thursday, April 24, and is now Sunday, April 27.

Does anyone know why it was pushed back? Was it to accommodate a particular show?

I'm inclined to believe Gad.

CN looks like a sour, humorless prisspot.

Eva Noblezada and somebody named Orville Peck joining Cabaret in April.

[quote] Rose pulled out a concealed gun when she met Bobby at the police station, intending to shoot him, but the gun didn't fire because the safety was on. She then physically attacked her son-in-law, and the police had to pry her off the hapless Reed. June subsequently left both her family and the act. Though the marriage didn't last long, the two remained friends."

If that were in the musical, Audra would have belted that number to high heaven!

Orville is a n out gay country singer. His gimmick is that he always wears a mask.

Nice nippleage.

[quote]R208 I don't understand this. Casey directs his shows, he isn't in them. So what is meant by "No one else is allowed to be funny on his shows?"

She might mean throughout the 4 to 6 week rehearsal process when everyone’s collaborating.

Actors might come up with bits that are funny or line deliveries, but, if the idea didn't come from Casey, then it was a no go.

RIP Diane Langton (at age 77) who was in the original West End casts of Hair, Jesus Christ Superstar, Pippin, A Little Night Music, A Chorus Line and I’m Getting My Act Together and Taking It On The Road. She was also an original member of the female rock group which became the basis for the UK series Rock Follies.

Tonight I shall listen to her stunning renditions of “The Miller’s Son” and “Old Friend.”

Diane Langton also played Ilona Ritter in the TV version of She Loves Me.

Diane...

Ah Diane. I actually prefer her vocals in The Rink to Liza's. RIP.

Diane.

[quote]She might mean throughout the 4 to 6 week rehearsal process when everyone’s collaborating.

So you think she might have meant that Casey spends a lot of time trying to be "funny" during rehearsals, and no one else in the company is allowed to be? Doesn't make sense to me.

[quote]Actors might come up with bits that are funny or line deliveries, but, if the idea didn't come from Casey, then it was a no go.

I think that sounds very hard to believe.

Just a possible explanation of the quote.

I have no problem with the idea that Casey would pull rank on anybody he could, but I can't imagine that going over well with the likes of Trey Parker & Matt Stone, and later, Tina Fey. Unless all three weren't as involved as they might seem with MORMON and MEAN GIRLS.

LuPone was going to rip Harold Prince to shreds in her autobio. Then she cut it before publication. Then regretted she had pulled it after publication.

Patti should write a second memoir and call it

“I Regret NOTHING”

And then she can freely bash

Harold Prince

Kecia Lewis

Audra McDonald

Debra Winger

The cast of Company

The Tony awards

The Emmy awards (snubbed for Hollywoodland)

The Oscars (snubbed for Beau Is Afraid)

The Golden Globes (snubbed for Agatha All Along)

Sondheim

Andrew Lloyd Webber

Betty Buckley

Bernadette Peters

Glenn Close

Chris Burke

Marsha Mason

Linda Lavin

[quote]LuPone was going to rip Harold Prince to shreds in her autobio. Then she cut it before publication. Then regretted she had pulled it after publication.

I don't doubt you for a moment, but what are your sources? Has Patti stated this?

R229, I'm amazed that, as far as I know, Patti has never made any public statement regarding the Kecia Lewis nonsense. I mean, Patti has publicly trashed countless people over the years due to her irrational grievances with them, but in this case, where Lewis's reckless charge of racism against Patti was so obviously unjustified, she has kept silent? I can only guess that Patti's friends and handlers somehow convinced her to stay mum because, sadly and unfairly, any blowback she might have made against Lewis would have been cited by some people as proof of her racism (which doesn't exist).

r210 posting on a gossip thread, whining about people delivering gossip.

R231 Patti became red-pilled by that incident which is why she's now BFFs with Nicole Scherzinger.

My favorite recorded Tulsa is Robert Lambert from the Tyne Daly revival in 1989 (whom I saw). I love how his voice cracks on "Louise, that's IT!" at the end of All I Need Is The Girl. Makes me smile every time. A close second is Tony Yazbeck, followed by Dan Burton in London -- I saw him, too, and he was too old for the part but sang it well -- then David Burtka, who just sounds like a big girl.

[quote]Patti should write a second memoir and call it “I Regret NOTHING." And then she can freely bash . . .

Don't forget about me.

R232, there's a huge difference between (1) people posting gossip anonymously on a chat board, and (2) public figures publicly trashing people they've worked with in memoirs, interviews, etc. If you think about it REALLY HARD, maybe you can understand the huge difference.

R234, what about the original Tulsa, Paul Wallace? Where does he stand, in your estimation?

He seemed sorta gay, R237.

R233 - I don't think you know what red-pilled means.

R117- I find that some really good plays won’t get standing ovations. People are so moved that they can’t stand. I love it when that happens. They’re usually smarter audiences too.

Paul Wallace was very good in Gypsy and he and Nat had a nice scene at the Railroad station. He got a Golden Globe nomination for that performance.

I don't think Paul Wallace comes across as gay on the GYPSY OBC album or in the movie, though according to a very reliable source, he was gay but completely closeted for career purposes. Though that didn't help him have a major career anyway :-)

Someone should write a book about Patti and call it " Cunt."

R243. I'll write the Forward.

Add Mia Farrow to the "now hates Patti" list. The stories are now legendary.

Where's our Jacqueline Susann, to make Patti immortal as the next Helen Lawson?

[quote]Paul Wallace was very good in Gypsy and he and Nat had a nice scene at the Railroad station. He got a Golden Globe nomination for that performance.

Paul Wallace died of AIDS in 2001. He was a wonderful actor.

Did Eureka Day go on tonight?

[quote]R245 Add Mia Farrow to the "now hates Patti" list. The stories are now legendary.

Where was THIS discussed?

The show sounds like my version of hell: "But the halfway treatment in this case feels like keeping the bath water and drowning the baby...."

Although I wonder if Jesse will get a LOT of shit for this line (I'm surprised The Times let him publish it): "Like the white guilt it mirrors, it is too often too much of a chore to encourage meaningful reflection."

Singapore Sling is gonna lose his SHIT!

[quote}Add Mia Farrow to the "now hates Patti" list. The stories are now legendary.

Damn! You can't drop a bombshell like that without providing some details!

Thanks, R250. "Singapore Sling" (actually SingaporeFling) on All That Chat is exactly the kind of ridiculous, living stereotype that people have in mind when they use the word "woke" in a disparaging way.

After the reviews came out and it was clear "The Roommate" was a non-event, LuPone turned on everyone, refusing to play with an understudy, criticizing Farrow for her "cutesy" performance, and created hell for the producers. Part of the problem was that all the many data loungers who came treated it like a camp fest, and that wasn't their intention at all. It was ugly.

If they didn’t want people to treat it as a camp fest, then Jack O’Brien shouldn’t have directed it like a camp fest.

[quote]Despite lovely vocal arrangements (by Dionne McClain-Freeney) and surprisingly rich orchestrations (by Dan Schlosberg) for a band of just six players, little of that registers here. Certainly not in the “white” songs, which are presented almost entirely in scare quotes, as if they were evidence of a crime.

I have to say, the second sentence above is a great line from Jesse Green's review of SHOW BOAT. Excuse me, SHOW/BOAT.

Thanks, R253. If all that's true, and I don't doubt it, how ironic that Patti and Mia should have ended up hating each other when they supposedly started out as such good friends. But I guess that's Patti for you: If she's unhappy in a show, for whatever reasons, everyone else involved is going to be unhappy as well. I can't even imagine what it was like backstage at THE ROOMMATE after the Kecia Lewis incident.

In what way do you think DataLoungers treated the show as a "camp fest?" Do you mean with inappropriate laughter? It would seem to me that any laughs in that show were intentional.

The Roommate was too stupid and witless to be a camp fest.

Hearing about Miley Cyrus going into Cabaret makes no sense. Does she really want to do Broadway that bad? Does she need a paycheck that bad? She just released a song to The Last Showgirl soundtrack and it might be nominated for Best Song. Why would she want to do this?

I'm a bit surprised that CABARET is still running, but I guess they must be making their weekly nut even if it will take the show a REALLY long time to recoup. If it ever does, which is doubtful, given the ridiculous amount of money that was spent to put it up.

r258 - huh? What has Miley Cyrus got to do with the Orville Peck / Eva Noblezada announcement??

Miley is supposed to be the next Sally after Eva leaves.

Shocked no one has brought up this topic:

Why the fuck is Josh Gad writing a memoir at age 43?

He hasn't lived long enough to be interesting enough for a memoir longer than the length of a TV Guide article.

His claims to fame: originating a supporting role in a hit B'way play and voicing a cartoon snowman in a hit movie.

If Orville Peck wears that stupid mask in Cabaret, I hope the audience boos him on his opening night.

Yes about Patti and Hal. She talks about him on some interview on youtube. It is really bad. I was shocked because I had never heard of Prince being difficult to work with. Her experience in the original Broadway run of Evita was pure hell and she blames him. Then I saw an interview with George Chakiris who was Robert in the national company of Company speak of him. ... Unfortunately he does not go into detail.

Kippy Watkins

I knew John Sheridan briefly when he played Tulsa in the Lansbury revival. He won a Theatre World Award for that. He subsequently played Tulsa in different productions until around 1978. He was a sweetie. I remember his boyfriend was black and I thought “How exotic.” That sort of thing in the theatre wasn’t as common back then as you might have thought.

[quote]Why the fuck is Josh Gad writing a memoir at age 43?

Maybe because, as someone else suggested, he has a hugely inflated sense of his own importance and level of celebrity. Also, based on what he wrote about Casey Nicholaw, he has very bad judgment.

Even if what he wrote about Casey is completely true, I still hope it bites Gad in the ass, because it's just so stupid to write stuff like that.

A few people, not only LuPone and Chakiris, have written negative things about Prince, but he was generally so beloved that perhaps the problem was with them rather than with Hal. Or, to be more charitable (though Patti doesn't deserve it), maybe Hal's personality and style just didn't mesh with certain other people's. After all, even the most well-liked individuals in the world are going to be disliked by some people, even if they are very small in number.

[quote]I'll write the Forward.

Oh, dear.

Eva Noblezada couldn’t act her way out of a community theater stage.

[quote]Why the fuck is Josh Gad writing a memoir at age 43?

Tara Lipinski wrote her autobiography at 15.

Was this rumor of Miley Cyrus joining Cabaret after Eva discussed here previously? I feel like this is the first we've heard about this.. I know this is a "gossip" thread, just trying to figure out if this is pure fan-fiction or if it's been talked about anywhere but here.

Also, legit question, is Miley being discussed for Sally or for The Emcee? I cannot imagine her being remotely effective Sally, but, the Emcee is actually an interesting idea.

That Sweaty Oracle fool is the source of the Miley rumour

[quote]Also, legit question, is Miley being discussed for Sally or for The Emcee?

She'd make a better Phyllis.

R273 - thanks! I'm obviously totally out of the loop as I had no idea who The Sweaty Oracle was. Well, according to him, she's been cast as Sally. I still think she'd be a better Emcee (and get far more musical numbers, too), but, okay. She seems to big of an A-lister to be the third Sally on Broadway. I guess we'll see!

One's memoir need not be about one's entire life. It could just be about a specific time or a specific project. And it sometimes benefits from the writer's memory being closer in time to the remembered incidents.

Those over 80 or even younger will often have less capacity to remember details with cogency and specifics.

A friend saw Cabaret She thought it was fabulous. The way the theater was configurated for this production not so much. She felt it was a real firetrap. 40 minutes line at ladies room at intermission. They were told to use the men's room.

configured

Orville Peck? Was Orville Redenbacher unavailable? I hear he still pops up from time to time.

I've frequently heard that Prince was great at conceptualizing and staging a production, but not so hot with actors—that is, pretty much leaving them at sea to work out issues on their own. If that's true, he's lucky he hired great performers to do the work.

Well I saw a number of Prince's best productions in the 70s and the performances were wonderful. Hire the best people and make suggestions, stage their movements and then get out of their way.

Lupone said she had no help with the character whatsoever from him. But people said she was fabulous. Maybe he knew what he was doing. I haven't heard complaints from Patinkin. I saw Terri Klausner at a matinee. I foolishly did not return to see Lupone. And the direction of Lupone and Gunton in bed discussing what is going on politically and their political futures from the Tonys is very well directed.

[quote]I've frequently heard that Prince was great at conceptualizing and staging a production...

Yes, he was. Here is his greatest work.

[quote]Miley being discussed for Sally or for The Emcee? I cannot imagine her being remotely effective Sally, but, the Emcee is actually an interesting idea.

In whose twisted mind would Miley Cyrus be better as the Emcee than as Sally? Are you the director of this production? Because that one has a VERY twisted mind.

[quote]A friend saw Cabaret She thought it was fabulous. The way the theater was configurated for this production not so much. . She felt it was a real firetrap.

She's half right.

[quote] Eva Noblezada couldn’t act her way out of a community theater stage.

Admittedly, sh's a "broad strokes" actress, but I love her voice--so clear and crystalline.

I was pretty amazed by how the Cabaret theatre was reconfigured. How did they do that without major tearing down walls and such--or did they?

I'd go back to see Cabaret with Eva N but I'm Cabareted out for the rest of my life, I think. Same with Gypsy. Audra was incredible but she would be the last Rose I need to see.

[quote]I've frequently heard that Prince was great at conceptualizing and staging a production, but not so hot with actors—that is, pretty much leaving them at sea to work out issues on their own. If that's true, he's lucky he hired great performers to do the work.

[quote]Well I saw a number of Prince's best productions in the 70s and the performances were wonderful. Hire the best people and make suggestions, stage their movements and then get out of their way.

I think maybe this is the key to why certain performers loved working with Prince while others did not. Some actors thrive on extremely hands-on direction and deep discussion of characters, motivations, etc., while others HATE that approach; they would rather be left to come up with their own ideas, and only then have the director step in and guide them a little. Of course, there are also some actors who resist ALL direction, but I doubt many of them make it to Broadway :-)

Whatever one thinks of Prince personally, his shows were stunningly directed. We see this when revivals with a different director just drag

R288-Objection, your honor. Hal Prince made a fucking mess of the original production of "Parade". And there's a reason he only directed 2 films.

I actually LOVED the original Parade, even more the recent revival. I felt the original was far more emotional for me.

R290, I was about to say that. I saw it on its mini tour and was blown away. I turned to my boyfriend at intermission, and he interrupted me to say he didn’t understand anything and it was moving too fast.

The recent revival was ok, but I think audiences just finally caught up with the show.

In particular, I loved that Prince used the parade imagery - mixing people and cutouts and props and sets - to highlight the Frank’s alienation from the rest of Marietta. I saw a matinee on the closing performance. After dropping off my soon to be ex, I headed back to the theater to see it again but there was an accident and I just went home,

[quote]Objection, your honor. Hal Prince made a fucking mess of the original production of "Parade". And there's a reason he only directed 2 films.

The original production of PARADE may not have worked or gone over as well as it should have, for whatever reasons, but it certainly wasn't "a fucking mess." And I and several of my friends think SOMETHING FOR EVERYONE is quite excellent as a very dark comedy film.

Hal seems to be directing Elaine Paige a fair amount in this…

He looks nuts

R293, of course he gives direction. It's idiotic when some say he just lets actors do what they want

Actors called him the “stage manager,” cuz all he did was blocking without much directing or discussion.

Prince directed musicals, not Chekhov. He was expert at "staging".

So Show Boat’s reviews have been terrible. I have tickets and flying in Saturday specifically to see this and I’m full of regrets. Has anyone on DL seen it and can talk me off the ledge??

[quote] I have tickets and flying in Saturday specifically to see this

Mary!!

[quote]So Show Boat’s reviews have been terrible. I have tickets and flying in Saturday specifically to see this and I’m full of regrets. Has anyone on DL seen it and can talk me off the ledge??

Did you not read up on this production before it opened? If so, though of course you would have had no way of knowing the exactly level of insanity and awfulness, you should have had a very good general idea of what to inspect. To fly in from anywhere specifically to see this was an incredibly dumb move, so I'm not at all surprised you're full of regrets.

Not gonna jump on that bandwagon.

R298, I hope you find much to enjoy.

[quote]So Show Boat’s reviews have been terrible. I have tickets and flying in Saturday specifically to see this and I’m full of regrets.

I don't know when you bought the tickets, of course, but DL tried to warn you.

To provide more context, I was not familiar with the theatre company, but Show Boat is one of my favorite musicals and I’ve never seen it live, so I was excited to finally see a production. I bought the tickets months ago.

Then the reviews came in.

I guess I missed the DL comments on Show Boat. Don't look at the theater threads every day. Will have to go back and try to find them. I did find them on ATC and who is the idiot who is flying in to see this? It sure sounds like one of the most dreadful musical productions ever. Maybe he'll enjoy it. There is always that one person no matter how awful a show is who says, 'I liked it!'

[quote]Orville Peck? Was Orville Redenbacher unavailable?

Orville Wright could fly in.

I have a friend who invested a little in CABARET. It's a financial disaster. Hasn't run a year yet, and already on third cast, and hasn't made a dime it's so expensive.

r306 - what makes it so expensive to run? Is it mostly the upfront costs of dramatically refurbishing the theatre? The cast isn't huge (for a musical), nor the orchestra.

The capitalization for CABARET was $30 million. The theater change costs were enormous. Total waste of money, if you ask me. I didn't need a Weimar theme park.

I wonder if the Guys & Dolls would have done better.

There was no way to do Guys & Dolls on Broadway. All of the interns in London who moved the audience around would have to be Equity Stage Managers on Broadway. The weekly costs would be insane. Plus another theater renovation. After Here Lies Love and now Cabaret, the theater owners aren't going to play that game again,

Got it, r310.

IS IMMERSIVE *OUT*?

R312, it’s no longer necessary. As I said when I was forced to put a sticker over the camera on my phone at Cabaret, it’s time for the full fascist experience.

I like the movie of Gypsy a lot. Roz is wonderful. They keep in most of the score. We get to see Paul Wallace doing All I Need is the Girl, they keep in Little Lamb(which is astounding. You would have thought Jack Warner would have gone at it with a hatchet.) The production is lavish, yeah I know it was the depression but I want something to look at in a big expensive movie musical and you get costumes by Orry-Kelly so let him run with it. Roz is terrifying in the railroad scene and the stand off between her and Nat towards the end is gripping. And do your really want to see burlesque as it really was with plenty of women beyond their prime taking off their clothes in front of audiences of middle aged and beyond men jerking off in the audience?

Farewell, Merle!

City on fire, indeed.

[quote]I'd like to hear more about Target Margin

They most definitely qualify as downtown theatre. (their main space is way the hell in south BK.)

I did some work with the AD David Herskovitz years ago and I had a blast. He's fun to work with, and he has a very particular aesthetic. (Richard Foreman with more jokes?)

Wouldn't recommend his work for most of the traditional DL showtune queens fighting over cast recordings of 60 year old musicals. But if you're up for some offbeat theatre he does solid work. Curious to see what they do with Showboat.

From Popbitch:

[quote]Which West End singing star made it her unlikely mission to have sex with her gay musical director? Alas, her question about what she could do "convert" him was met with the following reply, "Love, my greatest turn on is getting leather queens to piss on me. Good luck with that."

R203 yes, in her memoir, Gypsy mentions how heartbroken she was when she originally thought that he had run off with June.

Then got so happy when she saw him again and realized he hadn't.

Then was sad again when they bid their goodbyes and he departed with the other boys to try their luck in show business.

[quote]Orville is a n out gay country singer. His gimmick is that he always wears a mask.

R215 from South Africa.

R235 I wonder if Patti ever referred to him Bill Smitrovich as 'Bill Sonofabitch.' 😂

R321 I've always wondered, was Bill Smitrovich really an asshole or was he just an asshole to Patti because he resisted putting up with her bullshit?

Re Tulsa: what about Jeffrey Broadhurst form the Bette Midler GYPSY?

Well, he certainly had round, protruding buttocks, r323.

[quote]I'd like to hear more about Target Margin

That's Gwyneth's youngest child, isn't it?

Show/Boat

Tangent/Margin

Cunt/Perfect

Cock/Perfecter

I worked with Bill Smitrovich about 20 years ago and just loved him. Sexy husky/hunky daddy, very straight but loved the gays. I could easily imagine him not having much patience for Patti.

To be fair, Patti would fight with a door if it looked at her the wrong way!

[quote]To be fair, Patti would fight with a door if it looked at her the wrong way!

And, Jim Morrison would knock her block off.

[quote]After Here Lies Love and now Cabaret, the theater owners aren't going to play that game again,

More accurate to say producers aren't going to play that game again, right? They're the ones who pay for the reconfiguring of theaters. (Yes, I realize the theater owners are sometimes among a show's producers, but not all.)

I remember when CABARET opened, someone did a fascinating article or post somewhere crunching the numbers about how long it would take the show to recoup even if it sold out every night with a very high average ticket price. I don't remember the figures, but It was a REALLY long time -- and, of course, they are no longer selling out at a very high average ticket price. Since there's no reason to believe the show will ever start selling really well again, unless maybe they bring back Redmayne or put some other MAJOR star in one of the leads, I'm surprised it hasn't closed already. I will be very surprised if it continues to run after the contract for the new leads is over in July, and I think it's likely it will close before then.

The London production seems to attract more interesting replacements (yes, even Billy Porter). Broadway is getting some masked guy.

That clip above reminded me how gorgeous Jeffrey Broadhurst was in GYPSY, with a truly spectacular butt shown off to great advantage by VERY tight pants. But I always thought he was a little TOO good looking for the role, as Tulsa is a more poignant character if he's just an average looking guy, not someone who looks ready for movie stardom. And also, Jeffrey really looks too mature for the part. And by the way, whose dumb decision was it to put a follow spot on Broadhurst for his number? Big mistake.

The clip also reminded me how terribly flat Peter Riegert's performance was. On paper, he should have been a fine Herbie, but....he really wasn't, for some reason.

The new Tony eligibility rulings are in.

From a Boston Globe article about a new production of PETER PAN that sounds like it should be avoided at all costs:

[quote]When Emerson College student Hawa Kamara auditioned for the touring production of ?Peter Pan? ? which stops at the Opera House Jan. 21-Feb. 7 ? she wasn?t expecting much. "[Director] Lonny Price had been a guest artist at Emerson and invited students to audition," Kamara says. "I thought it would be a good experience, but didn't expect a call back, let alone to be cast in my first professional production."

[quote]For the past year, Kamara has been flying high as Wendy, joining the national touring company last February before officially graduating from Emerson last August. The New York native plays the oldest of the three Darling children Peter Pan brings to Neverland for an adventure with Neverland residents, including Captain Hook, some Lost Boys, and Tiger Lily. This version of the J.M. Barrie play is a revival of the Jerome Robbins Broadway musical that includes the classics "I Gotta Crow," "I Won?t Grow Up," and "I'm Flying," with a revised book by award-winning playwright Larissa FastHorse.

[quote]Although Wendy is usually reduced to a two-dimensional ?mother figure,? Kamara says FastHorse?s reimagined version gives her character a more contemporary spin. "Knowing this was a more contemporary version made me more comfortable, especially when I arrived at rehearsal and saw people who looked like me," she says. "[Wendy] is still a caretaker, someone who wants to make people feel better," Kamara says, "but she announces right up front she wants to be a surgeon, so we also see her ambition and determination."

The Barrie play was written in the early 1900s as a children's story filled with stereotypes of the day. Those stereotypes were formed because they were based on truths of the time. One of those truths was that, because opportunities for women of that era were so limited, the vast majority of little girls would never have dreamed of becoming surgeons (!!!!) and were happy -- or convinced themselves they were happy -- to dream no further than becoming wives and mothers.

Then there's this, from later in the article:

[quote]While Kamara says she was excited to have the opportunity to perform in such an iconic musical, FastHorse says she initially declined the offer to work on the production. "I had avoided Peter Pan for so long," she says. The appearance of the Indigenous character Tiger Lily in Neverland simply as an excuse for a battle scene was harmful, she says, and never made sense to her.

Umm, what happens in the musical, and I'm pretty sure in the original Peter Pan stories and the original play by Barrie, is that the "Indians" -- who are presented as the type of Indians one would find in a children's book from the early 20th century, not as realistic "indigenous" people -- are initially perceived by the children of Neverland as their antagonists, but then an alliance is formed between the two groups, who help each other defeat the pirates. I guess this FastHorse person somehow missed all of that?

Well, maybe she should have gotten down off her high FastHorse and read the material more closely before she began making stupid changes to it. Because, assuming that the story of Peter Pan remains set in the early 20th century in this new version, the changes sound fairly ridiculous.

MIght as well mention Andrew Norman who played Tulsa in the 1973 production of Gypsy in the West End starring Angela Lansbury. He needed a little work singing with an American accent, expecially on the “got my hopes high” bit…

It's really surprising how bad Peter Riegert is in that Gypsy Clio. Was this after he and Bette broke up?

Before Riegert was cast in GYPSY, I had heard that Billy Crystal was up for the role. He would have been a great Herbie.

When wasn't Peter Riegert flat and boring?

Not a very charismatic actor.

Bette and Riegert had long been split up by the time of the TV Gypsy (unless she and her husband have an open marriage). And yes, Billy Crystal would have made a fine Herbie.

Peter Riegert was terrific in the first season of DAMAGES.

Meg Tilly, Ashley Judd and Goop all auditioned for Louise. I think Tilly would have been fascinating but Bette probably would have had her fired.

I don't even remember Peter Riegert in the first season of DAMAGES and I loved that series.

[quote]Before Riegert was cast in GYPSY, I had heard that Billy Crystal was up for the role. He would have been a great Herbie.

A Herbie who might, God forbid, upstage Miss M.

If only Ken Wahl could sing....

[quote]That clip above reminded me how gorgeous Jeffrey Broadhurst was in GYPSY, with a truly spectacular butt shown off to great advantage by VERY tight pants. But I always thought he was a little TOO good looking for the role, as Tulsa is a more poignant character if he's just an average looking guy, not someone who looks ready for movie stardom.

I disagree. Louise is stuck on him and the audience needs to see why and you convey that by making him gorgeous to look at. Plus, in her memoir, Gypsy mentions he was a handsome boy.

I was in middle school when Midler's "Gypsy" originally aired on CBS around Christmas 1993 -- my introduction to the musical -- and he was definitely a highlight for me. I could empathize with Louise's desire to be with him.

Yes, because people ONLY have crushes on conventionally gorgeous people.

How was Tony Yazbeck's Tulsa? I've only seen him in On The Town and he was... the total package there. I don't think you could have created a better song-and-dance leading man in a lab.

CILLA!

R348, he was near perfect as Tulsa. You saw essentially the same performance in On the Town, but the role fit him like a glove. And; if you need to have this last minute pseudo romance for Louise, casting a straight man as Tulsa was a novel way to do it.

Tony was also a newsboy in the Tyne Daly revival.

Lea DeLaira in Titanique!

Agreed that Tony Yazbek was a great Tulsa in GYPSY, as he was a great Gabey in ON THE TOWN. I'm also happy to report that he is a wonderful, sweet person offstage, and very respectful and admiring of the showbiz veterans with whom he works.

R353 he’s a rare breed of Christian religious person who was still anti Trump, gay friendly and vaccine person.

Yes, R354. He definitely blasts a few stereotypes.

R354 - Yes! He and Kristen C are proof that you can be devout and still have progressive values. I recall Tony (who, yes, is a total doll offstage, too) blasting Laura Osnes for her stupid anti-vaxx nonsense.

So, WHET Tony Yazbeck's career?

Among my many issues with this GYPSY revival is why do the Newsboys or Farmboys or whatever the older version of those boys in the act are called, look like they're in their 30s? Is the acting or choreography so difficult they couldn't find 20-somethings to fill those roles? Or have they just been costumed so badly they all look like old frumps?

[quote]So, WHET Tony Yazbeck's career?

He played University of Florida football coach Urban Meyer in 2024's "American Sports Story" about Aaron Hernandez.

Thanks, R359, I did not know that. Good for Tony :-)

DL fave Kerry Butler played his long suffering wife. There were lots of Broadway names sprinkled in the cast actually.

Tony as Tulsa.

" Rose's Turn" from " Gypsy" revival ( audio only). Listen to Audra.

Reviewer analyzes " Gypsy."

If they wanted to make " Gypsy" re-conceived for a contemporary audience, they should have done a whole gender swap; Louis - the male stripper and Daddy Roger. That way we could have a number like this, which is the finest execution of " You Gotta Have a Gimmick."

Megan Fairchild is spectacular in that clip at R348.

I would have even been better, r366, if I'd accepted their offer instead of doing that turgid Little Dancer with Stro.

R366 - it's not just that clip, she was spectacular throughout that revival of On the Town. There's a throwaway number in Act I. The Miss Turnstiles number, I think? Whenever I'd listen to a cast recording of On the Town, I'd skip over it. In the theatre, it was transfixing because of Megan Fairchild. The way she just flew across that stage with such power and grace and feminine charm all at once! I'm not a dance expert. I doubt most of the audience were, either, but we knew we were in the presence of a great ballerina. The audience would literally gasp at how beautiful her movement was at times. I'm so glad the producers of that revival made so many good choices -- in casting, in the creative team, in funding the largest orchestra on Broadway to do that Bernstein score justice and, yes, in hiring a true ballet superstar for this role.

I had once downloaded an excellent quality bootleg of that full original cast of that revival, but I either deleted it or misfiled it. I wish I had a copy now!

Couldn't agree more, r368! Also, the last Broadway musical I saw where the chorus boys and girls were really hot.

What a shame the entire production wasn't filmed for prosperity.

Yeah, R369, they did such a nice job capturing that one number professionally. I wonder if they captured more and it's all locked in a vault somewhere. I recall, briefly, early in its run, the show started doing really strong box office, but without huge stars, I guess it's nearly impossible for a big musical production to recoup.

It was a shame that the producers had to downsize the orchestra in its last few months, but, still, my hats off to them for mounting such a world class revival. I doubt I'll see a production of On the Town that equals it in my lifetime.

By the way, Misty Copeland, though, obviously, very talented, did not impress me as much as Megan Fairchild. Copeland was very fine -- even technically impressive. But Fairchild took my breath away.

Yazbeck was just about the only thing worthwhile in Flying Over Sunset.

Yazbeck also did a brief run of Crazy for You -- was that an Encores production or some other semi-staged version somewhere? I bet he was absolutely charming in that one, too.

[quote] Yazbeck was just about the only thing worthwhile in Flying Over Sunset.

I recall that lucky Robert Sella got to plant his face in Yazbeck’s ass in one number.

R373 worth a bootleg to see that!

[quote]R358 why do the Newsboys or Farmboys - or whatever the older version of those boys in the act are called - look like they're in their 30s?

Nutrition is better now.

As a boy I saw the '71 revival of On the Town and loved it so much the Tony Yazbeck revival to me was pretty bad. It looked like a computer game. The '71 had gorgeous sets and costumes. Yazbeck was good but as conceived Gabey is a singing role not a dancing one. Ron Hussman was the perfect Gabey. Handsome with a great voice. Donna Mackechnie was Miss Turnstiles and Peters was hilarious. When Marilyn Cooper said Goodby Mr. Chips it brought down the house. Of course that could be a generational thing. It got nothing in the most recent production. And the staging was so good that even the busy opening to the introduction to Miss Turnstiles was staged with the women of the corp. It wasn't used for anything here at all. The orchestra just played it with nothing happening on stage. Like On Your Toes at Encores. Nothing happened during Bach, Beethoven and Brahms where in the early 80s revival it had movement. I wouldn't even go to the most recent revival of Promises. The Bennett staging throughout of the original was sensational. Even A Fact Can Be a Beautiful Thing turned into a terrific dance number. The Grapes of Roth, Where Can You Take a Girl... God people were so talented back then. It ended in the early 80s with Nine and Dreamgirls like a big iron door came down suddenly.

[quote]r368 It was transfixing because of Megan Fairchild. The way she just flew across that stage with such power and grace and feminine charm all at once! … I had once downloaded an excellent quality bootleg of that full original cast of that revival, but I either deleted it or misfiled it. I wish I had a copy now!

I guess this is a rehearsal hall version of it:

And I won't even start on the train chase in the second act of 20th Century. I often second acted it just to see that marvel. Prince at his most brilliant and exciting. The only productions comparable to the original stagings of the Prince/Sondheim musicals that I've seen were the Ingmar Bergman productions in Brooklyn. Best Shakespeare production I've seen on stage was his The Winter's Tale and it was in Swedish. But I have to admit otherwise I find Shakespeare on stage excruciating. It's as if it can't be performed anymore it has to be read.

I find AMERICANS doing Shakespeare on stage to be mostly excruciating. Even a mediocre British production has more vitality and interest than your typical American Shakespeare production. American actors are so terrified of the text they rush through it.

I don’t think Americans find Shakespearean text “terrifying” - just bloated and gassy and long winded, so they want it trimmed.

Everyone has places to be…

R381 Which is why 99% of them suck at it.

And, the reason so many people hate seeing live Shakespeare is because most productions really stink. Bad direction and bad acting. So, it's natural to hate it.

Then, you go and watch a great production from the National Theatre and it's like, "OH! THAT'S what it's supposed to be like!!!"

R379 totally agree. I don't really understand why American Shakespeare is so bad other than it's in the Brits' blood - they learn it from a young age, they know the history the way we know about the Founding Fathers and are exposed to a ton more live performances. At the RSC, I once sat behind two teen boys who were discussing which version of KING JOHN that they'd seen was better and I was still trying to make my way through the comedies, let alone the obscure KING JOHN.

fags

R382, Americans are bad performing Shakespeare, Brits are bad performing musical theater.

It's MORGAN Fairchild, not Megan.

It's Morgan BRITTANY, not Fairchild.

Anyway, I saw Joe boat last night, after reading some of the reviews, expecting the worst, but I was actually satisfied with the production.

As stated by others, the conception was half baked and basically pointless, with mixed races in the roles, and sashes depicting who was white, and the house lights on part of the time, and Parthy played by two actresses sometimes, but not other other times...

But all that being said, the production is basically a staged reading of the libretto and performance of the songs, which are as enjoyable as ever, particularly the "one drop of Negro blood" scene.

Apparently the show is indestructible, and I enjoyed seeing/hearing it on stage once again, regardless of the inconsequential bells and whistles appended thereupon.

[quote]Apparently the show is indestructible,

I felt the same way about the '97 Candide revival, r387. Though a problematic show, if the score is well sung, it's enthralling.

Speaking of Hal Prince and immersive staging, his Candide in 1974 was hilarious and thrilling to watch. I saw it twice. Although I read somewhere (perhaps here) that Bernstein didn’t care for it because so much music was cut.

I liked what Lonny Price did with it in that concert version. Chenoweth's version can't be topped in my opinion...vocally *and* physically.

Loved that 1974 CANDIDE and also saw it at least twice. Maybe the singing wasn't as pure as the original, but it was an incredibly engaging and hilarious entertainment, way ahead of its time IMHO.

So, R387, regarding SHOW BOAT, "the conception was half baked and basically pointless, with mixed races in the roles, and sashes depicting who was white, and the house lights on part of the time, and Parthy played by two actresses sometimes, but not other other times" -- and yet you were "actually satisfied" with the production because you found the performances of the songs "enjoyable as ever?" First of all, I could obviously understand that being enough to satisfy you if this were a concert production with no book scenes, but obviously it wasn't. And also, several people other than you have reported that the presentation of the score was problematic as well, with a tiny orchestra (or band) and a Julie who ruined those wonderful songs.

[quote]I liked what Lonny Price did with it in that concert version.

Then you have no taste, R390. That production of CANDIDE was relentlessly jokey in a mostly witless way, and it was also a star-fucking attempt to give a leading lady showcase to Splatty LuPone in a supporting role.

A friend saw Show Boat and thought Julie was the best performance in it...

Jesse Green: surprisingly rich orchestrations (by Dan Schlosberg) for a band of just six players

[quote]All this editorializing might not matter -- or might make sense -- if the score was treated with respect. But you'll have to take potluck: Philip Themio Stoddard handles Gaylord's numbers with assurance and, as Joe, Alvin Crawford does full justice to "Ol Man River." In a show that desperately needs some levity, Caitlin Nasema Cassidy makes a charming thing of "Life Upon the Wicked Stage." But, too often, both Rebekkah Vega-Romero (Magnolia) and Stephanie Weeks (Julie) veer alarmingly off-key; Weeks subjects the ballad "Bill" to the full Nicole Scherzinger treatment, ruining a supremely poignant moment with a full-scale assault that feels like an act of vandalism.

-- David Barbour, writing for LIGHTING AND SOUND AMERICA

Yikes! I trust David Barbour. He's always an astute critic.

[quote]It's Morgan BRITTANY, not Fairchild.

It's Suzanne Cupito, not Morgan Brittany!

R393 I liked that concert version, too. And, I have GREAT taste!

Maybe, you're just are a pedantic old stick in the mud?

Seeing the Lonny Price concert version was my first full exposure to a production of Candide and I really enjoyed it. Not long after, a local professional theater company did a production of Candide and I was excited to see it.

I hated it. It was one of the many other versions of Candide and more "thoughtful" and less funny but also quite dry and rather boring. I fell asleep actually.

r392/r393 just refuses to accept that other people may have different opinions. Unthinkable!

R399, CANDIDE is meant to be funny in a satirical way, but that doesn't mean the humor it should be treated as juvenile. One of the worst, sadly typical moments in the Lonny Price production came when, during the gorgeous, very touching and sad song "It Must Be So," Candide got a big laugh by packing a copy of the WEST SIDE STORY soundtrack album to take with him into exile. Yes, the moment WAS amusing in itself, but in a way that was totally inappropriate to that song. So you probably loved it.

By contrast, Hal Prince's direction of the 1970s production, with the new book by Hugh Wheeler, was very funny and witty without being childishly silly.

[quote][R392]/[R393] just refuses to accept that other people may have different opinions. Unthinkable!

I don't "refuse to accept" it, I just strongly disagree. There is a big difference between those two things.

[quote]R401 CANDIDE is meant to be funny in a satirical way, but that doesn't mean the humor it should be treated as juvenile.

With a book originally by that notorious laugh riot Lillian Hellman, the female Neil Simon!

[quote]Yazbeck also did a brief run of Crazy for You --

It was a workshop. That's the show that Laura Osnes was supposed to do with him, but she refused to get vaccinated.

People who saw it thought of was terrific. better than the original. There was done genuine heat to move it to Broadway, but the best deal Stroman got was to move it to London and Tony didn't want to do that, so Charlie Stemp did it instead.

r402 No, you said someone having a different opinion to yours must have "no taste" i.e., must be wrong as though only your opinion and tastes are the correct ones.

Oh r495, please let it go. No one is interested in your never-ending diatribes.

[quote]Yes, because people ONLY have crushes on conventionally gorgeous people.

R347 My point is, Tulsa has little stage/screen time and only one major scene (with Louise), so the audience doesn't get to know him very well.

His one solo is just a number he made up for his act and doesn't tell us anything about him personally.

Thus, the way to convey why Tulsa has such a hold on Louise is by making him conventionally gorgeous so he stands out.

Truth to be told, most people (i.e. majority of the audience) are drawn to conventional beauty and tend to sympathize more with attractive characters than with homely ones.

[quote]the full Nicole Scherzinger treatment

I suspect we will be seeing this description a LOT in times to come.

[quote] the full Nicole Scherzinger treatment

Standing ovations are NOT optional!

[quote]Tony didn't want to do that, so Charlie Stemp did it instead.

Love Charlie Stemp, but he's probably a major pussyhound.

Lonny Price is a hack.

[quote] I liked what Lonny Price did with it in that concert version. Chenoweth's version can't be topped in my opinion...vocally *and* physically.

Chenoweth gets quite shrill and pinched in her head voice in "Glitter and Be Gay." I like her a lot, but Candide wasn't my favorite performance of hers. I think Erie Mills in Prince's City Opera staging was funnier (without trying as hard), and her upper register is rich and full.

I'm sure Barbara Cook's Cunegonde was a laugh riot.

One of the reasons that Barbara Cook's Cunegonde seems so untouchable to many is that she didn't wink at anything she did -- "Glitter and Be Gay" is much funnier WITHOUT grafted on shtick.

The Hellman Candide is quite a different affair from the Wheeler/Prince Candide. Hellman was writing an allegory about the Red Scare and McCarthy era, and her book, though not without humor, is more sober and sharply satirical versus the jokier, shaggier Wheeler version. The odd thing is that neither book quite matches up with what Bernstein and his lyricists were up to.

I understand your point, R407. But I think that, for example, the "All I Need Is the Girl" sequence in the movie of GYPSY works just fine with Tulsa played by Paul Wallace, who is cute but probably would not be categorized as "gorgeous." I think Tulsa does need to be cute and charming and full of personality, all of which is more than enough to get Louise to fall in love with him. In contrast, I think Jeffrey Broadhurst in the Bette Midler version was TOO conventionally gorgeous, and in a too-modern style. There was nothing in his look or manner that said "1920s chorus boy" to me.

IMHO Tulsa needs to stand out from the other boys before we get to "All I Need Is the Girl" whether it's his looks or personality or costuming or whatever. It just helps in the storytelling that you don't feel like you're suddenly meeting a new character in that number. He doesn't need to be "gorgeous", but he needs that special spark.

If he doesn't, will it ruin an otherwise great production? No. But it's just a detail that can add so much to Louise's arc and the general storytelling.

Has anyone seen Hellman's Candide? I know it's not allowed to be done professionally, but perhaps in a reading somewhere or a college production?

What is going on in this Japanese production of West Side Story? That stage looks MASSIVE.

Well, it's in IHI Stage Around, r419.

Oh. Sounds... novel! I'd definitely have checked it out were I local. Sounds like it was a short-lived venture.

[quote] Has anyone seen Hellman's Candide? I know it's not allowed to be done professionally, but perhaps in a reading somewhere or a college production?

I don't know the answer to that, but you can read some excerpts from Hellman's book on the website, A Guide to Candide. (That site is very helpful in how it documents the many different productions and iterations of the script and score).

I wasn't crazy about the Chenowith performance in Candide, mainly because I saw her do it a couple of years before in a concert in the Park, where she did it straight with subtlety and she was brilliant. THAT was the best version I ever saw.

Crazy for You bombed in London. They have finally let it go for America. It's not going to happen.

Without actually naming Chenoweth, I'm sure Barbara Cook was referring to Kristin (and possibly some other performers also) when Barbara said she hated how some people who sing "Glitter and Be Gay" try to "make it funny" in such an aggressive way, with lots of schtick added, rather than relying on the humor in the lyrics and the music.

Well, I still think Kristin's performance was apt for the loose, broad strikes nature of that concert production. It wouldn't have been suitable for a fully staged, fully designed one.

When I was in high school, I got my hands on a published, hard-cover copy of Hellman's script to CANDIDE. I remember it was from a library, though I can no longer remember if it was from my high school library or the NYPL. Whatever, I guess I should have stolen it, or at least made a photo copy of the whole thing :-) Although I haven't done an exhaustive search, I can't imagine it's available online in digital form.

[quote]Well, I still think Kristin's performance was apt for the loose, broad strikes nature of that concert production. It wouldn't have been suitable for a fully staged, fully designed one.

I would agree on that specific point, but in my opinion, the strokes (or strikes) of that concert were far too loose and way too broad :-)

R427 - look around. I just bought a used copy through Amazon.

R429, I thought I made it clear that I was referring to a digital copy of the Hellman script that could be read on line in PDF form, or whatever. If you find one of those, please post the link.

Okay so the cheese with totally stand alone. I was the poster who posted about flying in to see Show Boat. I absolutely loved it.

I was shocked because the reviews have been atrocious…but I really enjoyed the concept and especially the orchestrations. I wish the actress playing Julie had been a little more reserved during “Bill” but I loved her during Can’t Help Loving That Man.

[Quote] " Rose's Turn" from " Gypsy" revival ( audio only). Listen to Audra.

And nowhere does she sound even remotely operatic. What a bunch of BS

One thing Chenoweth did in that Candide concert performance (and I was in the audience) is prove she bring an electric persona to the stage. While singers like Erie Mills are fine, no one is focused on her every move, her every note.

Yes, Chenoweth was over-the-top and pushed her schtick—but it was a concerts and it actually fit the role of a self-absorbed character perfectly.

In this NY Radio Hour interview, Audra talks about how her performing Rose was Gavin Creel’s idea. They took it to Sondheim who was thrilled with the idea of Audra playing it (Creel’s idea was 6 years ago so everyone was alive) and gave his blessing. He also wanted Audra to sing A Little Night Music. I’m not sure what full performances of Sondheim shows she’s done except for a short Lincoln Center run of Passion.

If it was okay with Sondheim, it should be okay for us. All the blathering on here about how he and Styne didn’t conceive the role with a voice like Audra’s in mind is just silly. He knew her voice and said she’d be fine in the role.

Here’s the link to the short interview with Audra

R434, Audra and Michael Cerveris and Lupone did a series of Sondheim shows each summer for the Ravinia Festival near Chicago. She played Nurse Fay, Clara, and Dot. In addition to Cora and Fosca and Yvonne, Patti took her first swings at Mrs. Lovett and Rose.

[quote]And nowhere does she sound even remotely operatic. What a bunch of BS

Your understanding of what some of us mean when we say that Audra sounds "operatic" in some parts of the GYPSY score is obviously very different from what we actually mean, because we hear what we hear, and A LOT of us hear it.

R425, Barbara Cook may have been a little butt-hurt that Chenoweth exceeded her performance of Glitter vocally and performance-wise.

That Prince staging of Candide was hilarious and moving. I especially liked the staging of Glitter and be Gay when the poker faced harpsichordist popped out of the trap door with a kind of headdress with all the jewels on it. Prince tried to recreate it in the NYC Opera production but it just didn't work in a proscenium house. We got the tickets that morning for the matinee so we must have gotten house seats because we had the perfect vantage point to take in all the sprawling action. I imagine there must have been a lot of not so good seats and to have been on a stool in the center seemed to me to be very uncomfortable. We had the matinee Cunegonde who sang Glitter far better than Maureen Brennan on the album which I had gotten in advance which was a good idea. I enjoyed the music so much more having gotten familiar with it. I then found out she was sick during the recording and had no choice but to do it then and there. Somebody who saw her in it actually spoke to her about it. Why were you so wonderful tonight when your performance on the recording is nowhere near how you sang it in performance? She then explained the situation to him.

If Audra plays Desiree, are we going to have to put up with people complaining that she doesn’t croak “Send in the Clowns” like Glynis Johns? Since Sondheim intended it to be sung like that?

As someone with mostly Swedish blood and who is a huge Bergman fan, I 100% approve of that casting.

[quote]If it was okay with Sondheim, it should be okay for us. All the blathering on here about how he and Styne didn’t conceive the role with a voice like Audra’s in mind is just silly. He knew her voice and said she’d be fine in the role.

Especially towards the end of his life and career, Sondheim approved several highly controversial productions of his shows, including Broadway revivals of A LITTLE NIGHT MUSIC and SUNDAY IN THE PARK WITH GEORGE that had miniscule "orchestras," the epically miscast and musically eviscerated film of SWEENEY TODD, and of course the pointless, unsuccessfully gender-swapped COMPANY, to name only a few examples. Apparently, he did this with the mindset that ANY major production of his shows was a good thing, as long as they weren't complete travesties. So, in that context, his approval of Audra as Rose doesn't mean much.

Also, who knows, maybe Sondheim assumed that if Audra ever did take on Rose, she would have the songs transposed to keys in which she could have sung every note in her lower, belt register, rather than keys that sometimes make her sound like a trained conservatory soprano

R438, you have got to be kidding. I can't think of a single passage in "GABG" as sung by Chenoweth on any occasion in which she surpasses Cook's recording.

In fact, as the decades have gone on, more and more operatic sopranos have tackled it, and while they should be able to handle the music even better than Cook, I'm hard-pressed to think of many that do. Roberta Peters comes to mind -- her recording displays cleaner staccati and actual trills -- but June Anderson, Sumi Jo, Edita Gruberová, Natalie Dessay, Diana Damrau et al. make their own vocal compromises. (And that's not even getting into how many of those ladies know how to act the song.)

Audra is our Imelda Staunton, doing every major musical theater role regardless if she's suited for it or not...with a thin resume when it comes to creating new roles in major new work.

The Revival Queen

I like Cook's story about Lenny coming into her dressing room before the opening night performance of Candide and telling her Callas would be in the audience. I'm sure somebody knows the exact story but Cook said to him 'Why did you have to tell me that?!' And he responded something like 'Oh she would kill for your high Bs.'

[quote]Barbara Cook may have been a little butt-hurt that Chenoweth exceeded her performance of Glitter vocally and performance-wise.

Well, your opinion here is....your opinion, and probably yours alone.

I'm finding the obsessive defense of Audra here quite amusing. You know there is a world where both things can be true -- she's a great artist and the show isn't a perfect vocal fit. The kingdom won't come falling down kids...

This is DL so it's a matter of life and death. But to be fair it's like straight men discussing athletes or sports teams.

R446 That's the difference between sane people and nutty fans. Sane people can very much adore and admire an artist while also recognizing the faults and frailties of that artist.

The nutters are unable to do that. "MADONNA IS GOD AND CAN DO NO WRONG!" "IF YOU CRITICIZE AUDRA YOU ARE RACIST!!!" etc

Well nobody has ever been killed because they loved the performance of somebody who was doing a role they weren't right for. As opposed to foreign countries where soccer can be literally a matter of life and death.

[quote]Barbara Cook may have been a little butt-hurt

When did Barbara have a little butt?

The quote is actually "She would kill for your E-flats," R444.

Audra has "a thin resume when it comes to creating new roles in major new work," R443? Well, she's premièred at least 3 LaChiusa shows -- MARIE CHRISTINE, R_SHOMON and SEND (WHO ARE YOU? I LOVE YOU), plus RAGTIME, of course.

More to the point, who exactly are your nominees among her peers with thick resumes along those lines? Have they included as many tracks by contemporary musical theater songwriters on their albums and in their concerts from the very beginning, as Audra has?

The only one I can think of is Kelli O'Hara, who's premièred MY LIFE WITH ALBERTINE, DRACULA, SWEET SMELL OF SUCCESS, THE LIGHT IN THE PIAZZA, FAR FROM HEAVEN, THE BRIDGES OF MADISON COUNTY and DAYS OF WINE AND ROSES -- an amazing record, especially since most of those have substantial scores.

But Sutton Foster? Kristin Chenoweth? Marin Mazzie? Idina Menzel? None of these gifted and successful ladies can/could hold her head any higher than McDonald in this regard.

[quote]That's the difference between sane people and nutty fans. Sane people can very much adore and admire an artist while also recognizing the faults and frailties of that artist.

Absolutely, but as I always say, this is also a difference between people of high and low intelligence. It seems people who are not very smart -- read, stupid -- can't abide anyone finding ANY flaws with things or people they love, nor can they tolerate anyone liking anything about people or things they hate, whereas smarter people are able to recognize both the good and the bad in things.

R441, ahh, so now the excuse has become basically, “Sondheim was senile in his old age and THAT’s why he told Audra she’d be a great Rose…”

Now you’re just sounding pathetic

[Quote] What is going on in this Japanese production of West Side Story? That stage looks MASSIVE.

Two Broadway revivals ago (the one with Matt Cavanaugh playing gay Tony), the stage was way too big for the show. It took away from the intimacy and made the show look less like a work of genius

Well the Winter Garden is a very large theater and has had many big musicals. I wonder how it played there.

There's informed criticism and there's just sniping. Criticizing Sondheim for writing "atonal" music shows that you are a total idiot. Someone who calls you out for that doesn't mean they are intolerant to criticism or part of a cult.

R455, The cast got swallowed up by the stage

[quote]Ahh, so now the excuse has become basically, “Sondheim was senile in his old age and THAT’s why he told Audra she’d be a great Rose…Now you’re just sounding pathetic.”

I wrote nothing of the kind. My interpretation of what happened is that Sondheim at some point decided he would allow almost any reinterpretation of his shows just to have them done again and again in major productions. Some would say that was a very wise and pragmatic decision on his part, others would disagree.

Whatever, don't put words in my mouth, you putz.

[quote]Two Broadway revivals ago (the one with Matt Cavanaugh playing gay Tony), the stage was way too big for the show. It took away from the intimacy and made the show look less like a work of genius.

Sorry, but that's an uninformed opinion, as I'm pretty sure the stages of all Broadway theaters have pretty much the same dimensions, and I very much doubt that the stage of the Palace is significantly larger than that of the Winter Garden.

P.S. Although I think Matt Cavenaugh is/was a very limited talent, it never struck me that he came across as gay onstage.

[Quote] Whatever, don't put words in my mouth, you putz.

You basically said he just green lighted anything so an Audra Gypsy fits into that trend.

You’re the putz because Sondheim was absolutely correct with his support of Audra

R459, there was tons of discussion at the time of how his characterization seemed rather gay.

It’s quite possible that stages are of similar dimensions (i doubt it but I don’t know). Either way, WSS was swallowed up by that big stage. There either needed to be way more people on the stage or get a smaller stage, but, if that was what the original Bway production looked like, I can totally see why it wasn’t that big a hit and not considered a classic

Well, nice to know that we're on schedule for maybe 20 more interesting posts, and more than 100 of a back-and-forth feud.

First of all, R480, many people disagree with you about Audra as Rose. Just as many people didn't like the gender-switched COMPANY, and/or the film version of SWEENEY TODD, and/or those Broadway revivals of SUNDAY IN THE PARK WITH GEORGE and A LITTLE NIGHT MUSIC with tiny orchestras and, in some cases, very questionable casting.

At that point in his life and career, of course Sondheim was not going to say no to another revival of GYPSY with one of the biggest Broadway stars in existence in the lead, even if she isn't really right for the role.

Again, R461, you are misinformed. However much you doubt it, it's true that all Broadway theater stages are of similar dimensions -- with very rare exceptions, such as the Helen Hayes Theatre.

And, to repeat, I don't recall reading or hearing it said that Matt Cavenaugh came across as gay in WSS or any other show.

R451 You're kidding, right?

Idina Menzel created original roles in TWO huge blockbusters, Rent and Wicked. That alone places her in the musical theater performer's pantheon. And, Kristin Chenoweth only has ONE huge original credit, but it's a doozy.

All of those Kelli O'Hara roles/shows, while several of them were well received, only Light in the Piazza had much success, and that wasn't huge. All those shows added together don't equal the blitzkrieg of originating a role in a MONSTROUSLY beloved hit.

Blitzkrieg or not, Menzel is more than a few notches shy of adequacy. She is nowhere near the vocalist or actor of McDonald or O’Hara, all whom I have seen many times. She skates by on charm.

Oh, I would agree that Menzel isn't as vocally strong as McDonald or O'Hara but she's more charismatic and far more unique than they are. And, got herself two huge hit shows. Oh, and Frozen. So, there's that.

[Quote] many people disagree with you about Audra as Rose.

“Many people say….” Hmm where have I heard that before?

Of course many people say . There are 8 Billion on this planet . Many people say everything .

Does the Menzel name bring in an audience ? She is a “name” because of Frozen.

how are ticket sales for Redwoods ( or whatever it’s called) going?

Why is “creating original roles” a measure of how good someone is? With so many musicals being jukebox and movie-to-stage crap, how many original musicals are even produced on Bway nowadays?

[Quote] At that point in his life and career, of course Sondheim was not going to say no to another revival of GYPSY with one of the biggest Broadway stars in existence in the lead, even if she isn't really right for the role.

As if Sondheim was desperate for another Gypsy revival. Sounds like he was genuinely excited to hear Audra in this role

Didn't Idina's show If/Then really run just on her name alone? I don't think the show got particularly good reviews. Several years later, I guess Redwoods will be the new test.

r470 creating a role in an original show is more of an achievement because the success doesn't depend on a known quantity. For example, it's easier to have a hit starring in Hello Dolly! or Cabaret than Redwood and If/Then. The star's name, at least in the beginning, is what's selling the show.

But surely you knew that.

Being associated with a certain character in a hit show is good for the career and even more so if you create the role. And, build on that from there by becoming a name/familiar face in other mediums. Kristin Chenoweth is a much bigger name/familar face to Kelli O'Hara or Sutton Foster because she is the original Glinda in Wicked but she also really created a new role in Charlie Brown (Sally) and even though she doesn't have huge hits in TV, she's got a unique look and personality so that she's recognizable and well liked. O'Hara and Foster are attractive and talented women but no one's gonna rush up to them at a Trader Joe's in Omaha and gushingly ask them for autographs. The Chenoweth is gonna get gushed over even though it's been awhile since her last big triumph.

[quote]The star's name, at least in the beginning, is what's selling the show.

Believe us, Glynis Johns wasn't what sold A Little Night Music, even in the beginning.

Casey was co-director on Mormon. Where was Trey Parker during all of this? Their work together pre-dated Casey’s involvement so Trey clearly liked Gad. Why doesn’t Gad mention him? Or did he? I haven’t read the book.

R231- how do you KNOW Patti isn’t racist? We all are in some way. Lewis was talking about micro-aggressions which one can do without being aware of it. You don’t dismiss a group of black women as TOO loud. Too loud for whom? Coming from a white person, it can sting. And remember, as the great Ann Harada sang, “evlyone’s a rittre bit lacist.”

R234- How about Jeffrey Broadhurst?? Maybe the most adorable one?

R277- why don’t people use a restroom before coming to the theatre? I don’t get it. You should be able to survive 2.5 hours without need of a restroom.

R280- he wasn’t lucky. It was what he was good at. 90% of good directing is good casting. I recently directed a production of Sweeney Todd and cast brilliant actors as the two leads. I didn’t have to “work” on the roles with them or teach them how to act. They did a great job on their own and the show was a hit! On that note, I’m off to direct my new production of GUYS/DOLLS: A CITY.

R396- ok now I’m interested. I’ve never seen a performance of “Bill” compared to vandalism lol. This sounds like a once in a lifetime thing.

R404- just a workshop? Wasn’t the Tony Yazbeck Crazy For You produced in Los Angeles with Rachel Bloom and other celebs in the cast?

Wow. R406 can talk to the future!

WSS at r419 looks incredible.

R432- you didn’t listen to the whole performance. Just one song. No one said she was operatic (though she is for a moment of “Together”) but she does use her head voice during the run of the show.

R434- Audra did a full concert production of Sweeney Todd as the Beggar Woman. Luxury casting.

R451- maybe not KC, Mazzie, or Idina but Sutton has a good record, creating lead roles in Millie, Little Women, Drowsy, Young Frankenstein and Shrek in succession and she was Tony nominated in 4 of the 5. They weren’t all hits but they were new Broadway musicals and all 5 are well-known and produced around the country. Audra has Marie Christine and Ragtime. I’m not taking sides. Just laying out the facts.

R459- wait, is this true? Is the stage at Lyric the same dimension as that at the Helen Hayes?

R469- I believe IF/THEM did bring in audiences on Idina’s name but did not fully recoup. With the upcoming REDWOOD, Idina conceived the show and is a producer. When has Audra or Sutton done that? This feels unprecedented.

R474- I think you’re wrong about Sutton. She has more Broadway credits and OCRs than Kristin and starred in two hit TV series. Also- Wicked can’t be done by schools but Sutton’s shows can. There are a lot of young Millies out there who listen to the recording all the time.

Let’s look at it this way, if you listen to SiriusXM’s Broadway station all day, whose voice do you hear the most?

R476 TWO hit TV shows? Really?

Younger ran 7 seasons but it's one of those "hits" that didn't generate a whole lot of attention (I had to go look up its name because I can never remember what it was called). The only time I've ever heard people bring up Younger is on DL theater threads. I don't personally know anyone who was a fan. As for Bunheads it ran one season but is definitely one of those beloved cult shows. Her TV credits pale next to Kristin's even with that "hit" show on her resume.

Meanwhile, Cheno hasn't had a 7 season "hit" show but she won an Emmy for Pushing Daisies, a beloved cult show on ABC. She did star in her show on NBC but it tanked. She was recurring on The West Wing, a huge show. A popular recurring on Glee. She was recurring on The Good Wife. All VERY well known and popular shows. Oh, and she was in Schmigadoon but everyone on B'way was apparently. Except Sutton.

And, she's GLINDA. For now and forever, the original B'way Glinda. Little girls and gay boys have been singing along to her on the cast album for DECADES! A billion drag queens have done lip syncs.

Millie isn't that beloved. I mean, it's just not. It's well liked to a degree but other than high schools, I don't see many other theaters doing it. And, I don't even like Wicked but it's an insane megahit, cultural touchstone kind of show. It and Hamilton are arguably the two musicals that are firmly entrenched in the Super Big Hit B'way Musical Pantheon. Everyone knows Wicked whether they want to or not.

Sutton has talent but...she may be doomed to be remembered mostly as Hugh's late in life beard.

Was this pre or post Candide?

[quote]Does the Menzel name bring in an audience ? She is a “name” because of Frozen.

People only know her because of ME!!!

Who is r478?? Looks so familiar but I just can't put a finger in it....I mean, on it.

It’s Leonard Bernstein of course.

Among the biggest and best elements lost when Hal Prince revived his CANDIDE was the 1974 original revival's brilliant set and costume design by the crazy Eugene and Franne Lee. Not just the immersive ground plan but the whole damn thing.

R478 my grandmother was right, show business is full of perverts and devil worshippers!

[Quote] you didn’t listen to the whole performance. Just one song. No one said she was operatic (though she is for a moment of “Together”) but she does use her head voice during the run of the show.

You’re about three weeks late to the theatre threads

[quote]Crazy for You bombed in London. They have finally let it go for America. It's not going to happen.

What does that mean?

The reason any of the Bway leading ladies is how popular their non-Broadway work was.

Chenoweth was the first Galinda but it’s her TV work that made her a name

It means they've (wisely) given up on reviving it in America.

My response [= R451] was specifically directed at the charge that Audra has "a thin resume when it comes to creating new roles in major new work." R476 is right that Foster has several new shows to her name, but however excited you are about Menzel, she's created exactly two Broadway musicals -- one a megahit, true, but scarcely the stuff of "a thick resume when it comes to creating new roles in major new work."

R474, I agree with a lot of what you say, but not about the relative stardom of Chenoweth and Foster. I would say they're very close to equal in that regard, and I'd point out that Foster can probably be said to have had more TV success than Cheno.

While Foster has been on TV shows, not one has been a cultural hit

Sutton Foster was the lead in YOUNGER, a TV show that ran for seven (7) seasons on TV Land and then on Hulu. Kristin Chenoweth's sitcom may have been higher profile only in the sense that it aired on NBC, but it only lasted six (6) episodes. Plus, Chenoweth's show aired way back in 2001, whereas YOUNGER continued airing new episodes till 2021.

R491 I remember the guy who played Doug's best friend Richie on KING OF QUEENS (1998-2007) left the show after Season 3, because he was offered a lead role in KRISTIN (2001) which was canceled after 6 episodes. Oops!

Just because it tame in TV Land and Hulu doesn’t mean that many people watched it. No only did Chenoweth appear on a major network’s show, she’s been on a number of Tv shows and talk shows. Her profile has been higher. The recent release of the Wicked movie reminded the public of who she was again

Tame in = ran on

Please no one in the general public has any clue who Sutton Foster is.

A small portion know Chenoweth.

R493, if you're seriously going to insist that Chenoweth has a higher TV profile than Foster, it's clear that you're arguing just for the sake of being argumentative.

[quote]Please no one in the general public has any clue who Sutton Foster is.

I think these days many people know her as Hugh Jackman's new squeeze.

[Quote] , if you're seriously going to insist that Chenoweth has a higher TV profile than Foster, it's clear that you're arguing just for the sake of being argumentative.

Just because one has been on TV more doesn’t mean she has a higher TV profile. TV profile is determined by the size of the audience

Hilarious that you’re considering a show on Tv Land to be high profile.

[Quote] I think these days many people know her as Hugh Jackman's new squeeze.

This is the very first time most have heard of her

[quote] The odd thing is that neither book quite matches up with what Bernstein and his lyricists were up to.

Let alone Voltaire.

Has Rannells sucked off Manuel Miranda???

The vast majority of people only know Sutton as being Hugh Jackman's new girlfriend. Kristen was more famous for being the original Glinda, and from being Ariana Grande's friend/mentor.

Audra is famous for her TV work. No one outside of Broadway has a clue who Kelli O'Hara is.

Would you snipers please lower your weapons and spread some gossip JUST FOR A WHILE??!!!??

[quote]Let’s look at it this way, if you listen to SiriusXM’s Broadway station all day, whose voice do you hear the most?

Seth Rudetsky's.

That picture of Bernstein was supposedly taken by Laurents while they were out of town in DC with West Side Story. No idea if that’s true or not.

Other than Jackman, are there any male stars in musical theater who can carry a show?

Not really.

Sad but true.

[quote]Other than Jackman, are there any male stars in musical theater who can carry a show?

"Just in Time" will be a big test to see if Jonathan Groff can carry a show on his own.

How many male stars of the past could carry a show? Not counting movie star types like Jackman again. Alfred Drake? John Raitt? Jerry Orbach?

Movie star types: Robert Preston, Danny Kaye, Rex Harrison

Stop casting the same people again and again. They don’t mean anything.

Joel Grey had a window of carrying a show.

Broadway loves TV and movie stars of any level. People will go rushing to buy tickets to see even the most pathetic of TV star.

ANY male TV star could "carry a show" right now. Bring in Erik Estrada if you want a massive hit

Erik Estrada IS Tevye!

Josh Groban certainly carried Sweeney Todd, as did Daniel Radcliffe with Merrily We Roll Along.

The box office for "Mattress" in LA proves all you Sutton haters wrong. It was a huge box office hit. And Younger was a big hit with a generation not on Datalounge and a bigger hit overseas -- particularly in Japan and South Korea. The first foreign tourists back to Broadway after COVID were the Japanese who wanted to see Sutton in Music Man and Sarah Jessica Parker in Plaza Suite.

R514. Here's hoping!

Broadway needs to start grooming attractive young male actors to be stars.

That's who the majority of theatergoers, women and gay men, want to see.

I think Andrew Rannells and Josh Gad carried Guttenberg to a nearly sold out run.

[quote]Josh Groban certainly carried Sweeney Todd, as did Daniel Radcliffe with Merrily We Roll Along

I don't remember anyone saying that Radcliffe carried Merrily. It was more the three of them, especially Groff.

Perhaps artistically, but no one would seriously argue that Groff was more of a draw than Radcliffe

Oh dear, r477. Yes, it's quite scientific when we poll your friends to come up with a conclusion. If a show runs SEVEN seasons, people are obviously watching. Being the STAR of the show, like Sutton, is different than being a guest star. No one came up to me on the street when I was guest starring on Law & Order: Criminal Intent and 100 Centre Street. But once I was in a supporting role on Bones, people have come up to me all the time. Pushing Daisies was canceled after one season and Kristin was in a supporting role. Sutton was the STAR of her two TV shows. As you said, the one time Kristin starred in a show, it was canceled quickly (I liked it, by the way). You dismiss that Sutton's shows are done by high schools for some reason. Every year at the Jimmy Awards, nominees sing from Millie, Little Women, Drowsy Chaperone. Millie is absolutely beloved. "Gimme Gimme" is a very popular song among young girls/women and is probably performed more often than, say, "Popular" because high schools can't get the rights to do Wicked. And very soon, if not already, Ariana Grande will become the person everyone thinks of when they think of Glinda. Quick= who was the original Sandy in Grease on Broadway? Well, even if you and your friends know the answer, I'm here to tell you most people don't. And Grease was a BIG hit on Broadway, at one point the longest running Broadway show ever. I love Kristin. I've performed with Kristin. I'm not taking sides. Just making sure the facts are clear.

You can't complain about someone else not being scientific and then immediately use a personal anecdote to try and prove your point.

R523, Sutton, shouldn't you be fucking your new man instead of posting on DL?

[quote]If a show runs SEVEN seasons, people are obviously watching.

Fringe cable channel shows have a low bar for "people are watching."

Only about 4 million people watch all cable news channels combines, but they still keep producing them.

r493- explain to me how a show runs for 7 years if no one is watching.

[quote]Every year at the Jimmy Awards, nominees sing from Millie, Little Women, Drowsy Chaperone. Millie is absolutely beloved.

So those 20 high schoolers likely know Sutton...

[quote] explain to me how a show runs for 7 years if no one is watching

It's a fringe show on a fringe cable network. Budgets are likely really small. They're thrilled with anyone who is just flipping channels and comes upon this.

Show random people on the street pictures of Foster and Chenoweth and see whom they recognize

Alright, I'll settle this. IMDB has a STAR METER. I just signed up for a free trial to get the info. Sutton is ranked 27th. Kristin is ranked 1,036th. End of argument.

27th among what??????

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Just proof that this "Star Meter" is utter bull shit

[quote]STARmeter rankings are based on several statistical indicators,including the frequency and number of people who access a person's page or credits on IMDb

So people are googling her because of Jackman and checking her IMDB to see what they might know her from.

Please, just stop this now, it's beyond embarrassing.

Is Sutton Foster the 27th biggest star in the world? Hilarious

They're all googling her because they don't know who the fuck she is

r522- you underestimate Groff. He has had big roles in movies. He has been a principal in several TV shows. He was a voice in Frozen. And he was an original cast member in Hamilton. Really a bigger profile than Radcliffe when you think about it.

Lots of male movie stars have carried Broadway shows at the box office. Probably the biggest one is Denzel Washington.

r535 Oh, really, we're going to pretend that Groff has a bigger profile than Harry Potter? You must be trolling now.

r537- Harry Potter was years ago and what other major credits does he have?

[quote]Okay so the cheese with totally stand alone. I was the poster who posted about flying in to see Show Boat. I absolutely loved it.

Oh good. Target Margin's shows can be bewildering to anyone expecting something more realistic/traditional, but I for one enjoy their work.

r538 He doesn't need any other credits, he was Harry Potter. He's the entire reason Merrily went ahead.

Obviously you have a vested interest in trying to convince yourself that middling credits actually make someone a star, but you're just making yourself look foolish now.

Hugh Jackman, Josh Groban and Patrick Wilson are the biggest box-office males for Broadway musicals. Jonathan Groff could join them if his new show smashes.

Ah, yes, Patrick Wilson, who hasn't done a Broadway musical in more than 22 years.

We all have the strangest views on who's famous. Most of them seem to boil down to "I don't like them = not famous."

[quote]That picture of Bernstein was supposedly taken by Laurents while they were out of town in DC with West Side Story. No idea if that’s true or not.

What?? Was this scene covered in Maestro? I still haven't watched it!

[quote]Harry Potter was years ago and what other major credits does he have?

It's true that those movies were made years ago, but they had untold millions of fans back then, and apparently they continue to be watched by younger generations. You really are making yourself sound like a fool. Or a troll.

What "picture of Bernstein" is being referred to above?

[quote]What "picture of Bernstein" is being referred to above?

The tasteful nude at R478

I love it that DL is keeping itself sane on Inauguration Day by having this discussion about Sutton Foster's star power.

Is Sutton gay? Asexual? Really into Hugh? bearded partners?

r549

I've always thought of her as asexual and a perfect beard. Did Christian B ever come out as gay?

Broadway better watch out. Elon just did the Nazi salute. Twice.

Borle is quite straight, and is now happily married.

DL regularly claimed that the majority audience for Broadway musicals is now tourists. This being the case, it is obvious a star has to be on TV or film to have a "name that will bring in the crowds".

Nobody in the rest of the world (and I assume that includes the flyover states) who isn't a musical theatre tragic has heard of ANY Broadway stars that don't have film and TV resumes. They are unaware the cast of The Gilded Age can sing.

Broadway is a tiny little corner of a big city. People know the names of its big shows, but not of its "stars".

R553 must be 90 years old and never heard of the "internet." Millions around the U.S. follow Broadway, listen to the music, go to see tours and occasionally go to New York.

I'm laughing at the notion that anyone other than bitter theatre queens are (hate) watching The Gilded Age.

Jesus Christ, if you think fucking Younger, airing on TV Land is a bigger hit with a bigger audience than The West Wing, Glee, or The Good Wife, all hit shows on network TV with shit tons of awards between them and constant media exposure in every major outlet in the country/world then you really are stupid.

Just Cheno's Glee credit alone is worth more than 7 fucking seasons of Younger.

Sheryl Lee Ralph seems c crazy. Is she?

R557 self righteous, not crazy

R550 he cheated on Sutton with Laura Bell Bundy when they did LEGALLY BLONDE on Broadway (2007-2008) and they divorced shortly afterward.

R540- since when are Frozen & Hamilton middling credits? He has also starred in 3 TV shows and played principal roles in movies. I’m sure Radcliffe wishes he had Groff’s career. I’d choose Groff’s career too!

R541- Gad and Rannells are big at the box office too. Hot take: Tammy Fay would still be running if the producers gave Rannells what he wanted.

R556- Cheno had small roles. Sutton was the star of Younger. It wouldn’t run 7 years if it didn’t have a rabid fan base. Awards for The West Wing don’t matter. She had a small role and it was decades ago. Glee not as big a hit as you think. Look up the ratings.

R561, 5 viewers is considered a "rabid fan base" for TV Land.

[quote]Hot take: Tammy Fay would still be running if the producers gave Rannells what he wanted.

No it wouldn't. Nothing could have saved that turkey

R563 wasn't it a hit in London?

[quote]wasn't it a hit in London?

So were a lot of crappy shows. The reason a Broadway theater was torn apart for the current crappy "Cabaret" is because it was such a huge hit in London. The musicalized "Groundhog Day" that flopped here? Huge hit in London.

R565 what are you saying?

Rannells’ career is littered with hits.

[quote]I’m sure Radcliffe wishes he had Groff’s career. I’d choose Groff’s career too!

Whatever you say...

[quote]British actor Daniel Radcliffe, who rose to fame as a child actor starring in the “Harry Potter” film series, has a massive net worth of $110 million as of 2023, according to Celebrity Net Worth. He is one of the wealthiest celebrities in Britain.

1) Celebrity Net Worth is not accurate. Says I’m worth MUCH more than I am

2) Money isn’t everything. I’m an actor. Groff has gotten more opportunities to act in varied roles on varied media. You would really choose rich child star over the adult career Groff has had? I wouldn’t.

Chiming in here: Daniel Radcliffe is known and loved the world over because of Harry Potter. Jonathan Groff can only wish for that kind of lottery ticket.

R554. please note that we are conversing on "the internet". Nothing you said in your other sentence negated my claim that most people have never heard of any Broadway "stars" who don't have TV and film profiles.

Seeing US tours and "occasionally visiting New York" will not give you any useful information about who is or is not a Broadway "star". Listening to OBC recordings over and over might make you familiar with the names of the stars, but really? you want us to believe people who are not Broadway tragics do that?

In Australia lots of ordinary people are discussing Hugh Jackman's divorce, which as you might imagine is all over the women's mags. Everyone who has raised this with me has referred to Sutton Foster as "the woman he's with: what's her name?" She could be a lawyer for all they know.

R555, heaps of women who loved Downton Abbey watch The Gilded Age. They know Christine Baranski from all her TV work and Mamma Mia, and Cynthia NIxon for That, but that's the extent of their familiarity with the cast. They don't even know Louisa J is Streep spawn, let alone that Mrs Astor can sing and Peggy's mother has a lot of Tonys. They love the costumes, though.

Jonathon Groff has leading man looks: Daniel Radcliffe doesn't. So who's always going to have the bigger choice of major roles? Good on Radcliffe that he's so serious about being an actor, when since he was 18 he's been free never to work again in his life.

[quote]The musicalized "Groundhog Day" that flopped here? Huge hit in London

It wasn't really. It ran for two months at the Old Vic before Broadway, and then 3 months in 2023. Not disputing the rest of your argument, though.

[quote]Groff has gotten more opportunities to act in varied roles on varied media

You might want to actually take a look at Radcliffe's filmography. He's used the fame and fortune from Harry Potter to allow him to take a wide range of more indie type roles.

[quote]1) Celebrity Net Worth is not accurate.

Is it more or less accurate than IMDB Star Meter?

[quote]Jonathon Groff has leading man looks: Daniel Radcliffe doesn't. So who's always going to have the bigger choice of major roles?

Radcliffe, because he's actually a draw.

But, hey, put your money where your mouth is. Since Groff is this huge star, that surely means you'll have no problem predicting his Darin show will be a big hit, right?

Take1000 people from around the world, show them pictures of Groff and Radcliffe, and ask them to identify the person:

Groff : 50, mostly New Yorkers who think that everyone knows who he is. Radcliffe: 980, although many of them will say " Harry Potter."

Believe it or not, New York popularity does not necessarily mean world popularity, and those who insist that Groff has had a better career and better opportunities than Radcliffe only do so because he has had some success in a musical by the sainted Sondheim. Had he not had this Sondheim association, he would be just another Broadway actor.

These theater gossip threads have turned into all bickering, all the time.

I find that I no longer mind the bickering posters, r575.

I don't READ the motherfuckers, I just don't mind them anymore.

[quote]Hot take: Tammy Fay would still be running if the producers gave Rannells what he wanted.

Really? I agree that Borle was miscast and Rannells would have been much better and maybe helped sell some more tickets, but it wasn't Borle's casting that doomed that show on Broadway.

[quote]R565, what are you saying?

R565 is clearly saying the fact that TAMMY FAYE was a hit in London with Rannells does not mean it would have been a hit on Broadway with Rannells.

[quote]Money isn’t everything. I’m an actor. Groff has gotten more opportunities to act in varied roles on varied media. You would really choose rich child star over the adult career Groff has had? I wouldn’t.

Different people here are arguing based on different criteria. Many would agree that Groff's adult career is going better than Radcliiffe's, but that's NOT the same as saying that Groff is more famous and sells more tickets.

Do you REALLY not understand that, R569, aka C-List Actor?

Another point that should be made: Some of the most famous actors in the world are those who have not only starred in movies, but have starred in tremendously successful movies that were aimed towards a family audience and have become just as popular, if not more so, via home video and streaming than when they were when playing in theaters. Which is why, for example, two of the most popular and beloved stars in history are Julie Andrews and....Daniel Radcliffe.

If this is a duplicate, my apologies.

Just saw this on Deadline.

Was Taran any good in Spamalot? I liked him on SNL.

Taran was great in SPAMALOT and also in PUTNAM COUNTY SPELLING BEE in at the Kennedy Center. Very sorry to read that he has lost his home. Best wishes to him and his wife.

DL favorite Cynthia Erivo's been named the Hasty Pudding Woman of the Year.

I object to the racism, classism and colonialism of being called "pudding!"

And "Hasty!"

The latest grosses are in. Next week will reflect English officially opening and Redwood starting previews.

R571- if people think Sutton is a “lawyer for all they know,” then why is she 27th on IMDB’s STAR METER? People absolutely know she’s an actress. Also- no one knows Radcliffe for anything but Harry Potter. Jonathan Groff has had many roles in high profile projects. I would 100% choose to have Groff’s career. That’s me personally. It’s a more fun career and I wouldn’t be just known for one project as a kid.

R574- you’re just wrong. Groff is mostly known for his film and TV roles. And Frozen. He’s hardly known as just a theater star. He hasn’t even done many shows on Broadway (they were big though- Hamilton, Spring Awakening). He has starred in 3 high profile TV shows and played lead roles in studio films. Also- not every play that Radcliffe has done was a hit.

R579- I don’t believe I ever said Groff was more famous or that he sells more tickets. I said he’s more famous than people are giving him credit for and that I’d rather have his career.

And Danielle Radcliffe isn’t close to being a big a star as Julie Andrews. JFC… Julie Andrews is an Oscar winner and has had multiple hits. Maria + Mary Poppins alone put her above him.

Just stop. I saw Merrily a number of times, including before it went to Broadway. When I told non-theater people about the show, the recognition popped for Radcliffe and maybe for Sondheim. Not for Jonathan Groff and never for the woman who showed up every once in a while.

Audra haters, suck it! GYPSY made almost 2 million last week.

R588- talking to your specific friends is not a scientific poll. I assume if we polled your friends, Kamala won in a landslide?

By the way, there is a difference between all people and people who buy tickets to Broadway shows. People who buy tickets to Broadway shows know who Groff is. They know who Sutton is. On that note, they even know who Jeremy Jordan is and that’s one of the reasons The Great Gatsby has done so well

In related news looks like congestion pricing didn't do a fucking thing to Broadway grosses, eh?

Twelve more weeks until & Juliet crosses the 1,000-performance mark.

I spent a few days in NYC last week, took several taxis, and definitely noticed less traffic in midtown. Cabdrivers all commented on it, too.

Of course, it was also freezing mid-January, and I certainly wouldn't have been there if I could have avoided it.

I don't understand why Left on 10th has not reduced their prices even further. They are running at only 50% capacity, but even on TDF the tickets are over $50.

C+ Actor....gurl, are you off your meds?

You're citing IMDB's Star Meter as proof that Sutton is a superstar because she comes in at #27? Did you see who was just above her, at #26 (currently)?

Laysla De Oliveira

Who?

#1 is David Lynch...because he just died. Betty Gilpin is #2. I'm guessing because she just took over in "Oh, Mary" and everyone is like 'who the fuck is Betty Gilpin?'

Here's the new thread.

Closing this ...

... thread out.

BAJOUR!