Did the British leave all their colonies a mess?

[quote] Did the British leave all their colonies a mess?

Yes, but we made it worse.

To be fair Some places were probably messes before they arrived

The US vs Canada.

And here the fight continues

The Brits did a fine job with Ireland. That has worked out really well.

You're presuming there was peace and harmony among all of these territories before colonization. There was not.

India has been independent for almost 70 years - the Nehru-Gandhi family ruled for 40 of the first 60 years.

They have the money and resources to feed and educate their people - yet 40% of Indians are illiterate. Their caste system helps them feel better about all of that.

Your whole supposition is that only colonizers are evil and bad, a trait unique to them that the colonized do not possess. That's so laughably wrong.

The British New World colonies turned out ok. The Spanish New World colonies continue to be total shitshows.

[Quote] The Brits did a fine job with Ireland. That has worked out really well.

Just took a century

[Quote] You're presuming there was peace and harmony among all of these territories before colonization. There was not.

The Hindu-Muslim divide was purposely drummed up by the British.

r8 that was going on long before the British arrived.

Zionists in Europe decided to attack Palestine and remove or subjugate the population before the British mandate in 1920.

They had decided this in the late 1800s and began arriving in the 1880s.

Palestine was not a British colony, by the way. They were given a mandate by the League of Nations to govern it until the people of Palestine could self-govern. But the British made that impossible by deciding Jews in Europe were more entitled to Palestine than the Arabs actually living there — the infamous “Balfour Declaration.” On no authority, they declared that they wished to see, and would support, a Jewish land in Palestine. Zionist emigration ramped up.

The British eventually realized what a mistake that was but it was too late. The Jews they allowed in often committed acts of terrorism against the British (against everyone basically). See link.

After WWII, and after the Americans stopped financing the British (as they had since the war began), the British were basically bankrupt and pulled out of most of their colonies and mandate properties. This led to chaos.

The U.S. had heavily pushed other UN members to support a resolution recommending a partition of Palestine. They couldn’t get enough votes, but they twisted arms and got the needed votes the second try.

They Zionists ignored the partition and attacked the land set aside for the Arabs, conquering most of it and declaring a state of Israel.

R8 - and? They don't want to live together - they still hate each other and bomb and attack each other. They could stop at any time.

The British aren't forcing them to be complete assholes to each other - and yet there they are.

Constantly blaming somebody else for their problems. That's been one of the nice 'gifts' handed to independent states - anything going wrong, they pivot back and say IT WAS BECAUSE OF THE COLONIZER.

Work on your own problems and stop blaming others. Every nation's history has countless tales of war and being taken over - it's just the colonizing powers were most recent.

R6, our colonization method - importing starved, near-death workers who had zero cultural ties - worked better than herding angry native citizens to do our work.

Displace, Confuse, Divide, conquer, and profit with ugly children who enjoy torturing people they’ve excluded from the human race.

r12 it was the Protestant work ethic.

[Quote] that was going on long before the British arrived.

At an extraordinarily minor level. The Brits ramped up the hatred between Muslims and Hindus

[Quote] The British aren't forcing them to be complete assholes to each other - and yet there they are.

Whenever you plant a seed of dominance vs dominated, they will be assholes to each other

Don’t forget Indochina.

And nothing tops the horrors of the Belgian Congo.

The British generally favored the second largest ethnic or religious group in colonies they didn’t intend to make majority British ethnically. So, for example, they favored Muslims in India, which was majority Hindu and they favored Hindus in Sri Lanka, which was a majority Buddhist. So there is a specific type of dysfunction that is pretty specific to British colonialism. But that doesn’t mean that they were worse than the Belgians or the Spanish or French.

Colonizer apologist in this thread

And as a Sicilian American (Greek colony, Carthaginian colony, Arab colony, French colony, Arab colony again, Spanish colony, Swabian colony) I have to say at a certain point you have to acknowledge the the harm caused by the oppression and refuse to let it poison your current culture or serve as an excuse for dysfunctional and/or evil behavior. True decolonization means breaking the cycle.

Norman!

simplistic answers to complex situations

Fine Norman colony.

It is the reason they cling to the enslaved Scotts...

Colonialism by definition is repressive. Its effects last long after the colonial power is gone—often the colony adds the colonizer’s beliefs into its laws.

For example, the British detested homosexuality and almost all its colonies ended up with anti-gay laws. The Portuguese, however, were less obsessed with gays so their colonies are more lenient

Totally. I even read a book about it. Very good at administering empires but terrible at ending them

[Quote] At an extraordinarily minor level.

Actually the Hindus and Muslims were at each others throats for almost a millennium when the British first arrived. (They were the “English” at the time.)

There were Muslim states and Hindu states all through the Middle Ages, constantly at war.

Theee actually wasn’t a concept of an Indian “nation state,” although the Mughals (who were Muslims and actually Turco-Iranian) united most of the subcontinent under their rule.

Britain caused a lot of the problems that the US has made worse since 1950. "They've always been fighting" sounds plausible, so people say it. The truth is, everyone (Hindus/Muslims/Jews/ethnic groups in Africa) was not "always' fighting.

[Quote] There were Muslim states and Hindu states all through the Middle Ages, constantly at war.

Yes, the states were at war but not necessarily the people. Once the states were gone under the British empire, there were only minor skirmishes. The Brits drummed up more conflict by siding with the minority Muslims. The Brits encouraged those who wanted a separate Muslim country after independence

No. The British were horrid in many ways, but by and large they left an educated middle class in those colonies to take over once they gained independence. Colonialism's legacy has shaped many of those countries, but not all ills that have befallen them are traced to the colonial legacy.

These placed would be shitholes no matter what. Culture is destiny.

R18 - I'm not a colony apologizer. But to blame all conflicts and other things on a colonial power - even today's issues - is simplistic and a high-school level interpretation.

Real history is more complex. There were a lot of Muslims and Hindus who took the divide to their political advantage.

Most other countries have had 'colonies' - but they didn't call them as such - they were just lands that were taken over as spoils of war.

You want to know why the Middle East, at one point far more advanced than Europe in the Middle Ages, stopped progressing? RELIGIOUS figures who were anti-science. They still don't have great higher education in those countries. It's not the Brits or the French or any other colonizers' fault.

[Quote] Yes, the states were at war but not necessarily the people.

🤡

[Quote] Colonialism's legacy has shaped many of those countries, but not all ills that have befallen them are traced to the colonial legacy.

Most though. Not only within countries, but also between countries.

R33 - no - you're wrong. See I can make simple statements too without backing things up.

[Quote] Britain caused a lot of the problems that the US has made worse since 1950.

Some of these issues caused by British greed are in fact insoluble, so it’s very funny to say “the Americans made things worse.”

Butthurt Brit at r34 — I can say 1+1=2 and you can say 1+1=3. Both simple statements. See where this is going?

But FINE.

And …

(Just two of a thousand links I could provide)

I love the “America is to blame for everything, even stuff we did” alibi. Especially funny considering that America underwrote British national defense from wwii to the present day.

[Quote] These placed would be shitholes no matter what. Culture is destiny.

In the 16th and 17th centuries, India and China were the world’s greatest economies. The colonizers came and stole a huge amount of natural resources and money and now we have shitholes

R36 - LOL - that's all you got? A thinkpiece from an Indian student living in the UK who based her whole article on colonial oppression to define her argument?

Perfect example of cherry picking quotes and blaming colonizers - India has been independent for over 70 years. What's stopping them?

Oh but female oppression in India is because of Britain? How the fuck?

[Quote] LOL - that's all you got? A thinkpiece from an Indian student living in the UK who based her whole article on colonial oppression to define her argument?

Are you for real? That’s “all I got?” Are you seriously saying you want me to bombard this thread with links? (Which you will go as hominem against link by link, of course, because that’s the only argument a losing proposition has.)

Ok!

R39 - the colonies initially were setup as trading posts for hundreds of years - buying the products available and taking them to Europe.

Yes - they did extract a lot of resources in the 19th century with industrialization. But that's what conquering powers do - you act like there haven't been hostile takeovers of other countries to ever exist before this.

And India and China's economies are some of the biggest in the world - they are not shitholes economically, but they have a lot of areas that ARE shitholes because they don't fucking care about their citizens.

Ask any Indian - they hate other Indians from different areas of India. China's problems were because of communism and Mao. Not the British.

It's like a child blaming their parents for all their faults - at a certain point, you have to stand on your own two feet and take responsibility for your own actions and life.

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R41 - girl, nobody is saying that colonialism didn't have an impact. But your statement that almost everything stems from that is simple and laughably stupid.

You act like powers within these own countries had zero agency - and that somehow the ghosts of colonialism past still run these countries today and prevent them from moving forward.

Yes - we all know colonialism had negative impacts, some severe ones. But when you blame EVERYTHING on colonialism, it's reductive and insulting to the people who lives in those countries - as if they don't have the brains or power to act differently.

Shall I go on? There are hundreds of sources on this. “Is that all you’ve got” indeed.

[Quote] [R41] - girl, nobody is saying that colonialism didn't have an impact. But your statement that almost everything stems from that is simple and laughably stupid.

Almost everything does and what’s really childish and laughably stupid is to claim otherwise.

Brit: “yes perhaps some minor inconveniences occurred in India because of our naked greed and plundering of that subcontinent, and then our craven abandonment of it, but it’s mostly those bloody wogs being bloody wogs.”

Checks out. Once a racist, always a racist.

R48 - and typical person of low intelligence and limited knowledge of history who wants to finger point blame to one thing and not have people take personal responsibility.

LOL - checks out on my end too!

Now go off to your Palestinian pride parade!

[Quote] they have a lot of areas that ARE shitholes because they don't fucking care about their citizens.

Mainly because of overpopulation, not because they don’t care

[Quote] Now go off to your Palestinian pride parade!

I see the trolls have arrived

Colonising a country robs said lands of hundreds of years of (self-)development. This is something people like to glare over.

“Well, it's been 200 years since we left, and they still can't get their act together!”

First: they didn't get the chance to “get their act together”, because they weren't allowed to prosper in freedom.

Second: The reason western nations “got their act together” is because they were strongly kept afloat by exploiting/colonising other countries.

For example: What the Dutch call “the golden age” wasn't exactly a golden age for the countries colonised.

The whole point of colonization is to suck the resources from the place.

It never goes well for the natives

Well duh, OP. That was the point

[quote] You act like powers within these own countries had zero agency - and that somehow the ghosts of colonialism past still run these countries today and prevent them from moving forward.

Most often, the colonized are left impoverished and traumatized. Usually, the colony-sympathizers among the natives are left in power and continue many of the same policies. Many of those policies are put into the constitutions.

I can take a century or more to recover—they have to claw back from poverty and find other resources to trade.

Haiti, for example, was forced to pay back enslavers for the slaves that were set free ($81 billion). Haiti didn’t have the money so it had to borrow from French banks at high interest rates. Even now, Haiti suffers from that loss of money.

The Muslims and the Hindu in India worked together well in dealing with or against the Brits. Both Jinnah and Gandhi were a part of the same nationalist party.

But as independence approached the Muslims wanted guarantees, they wanted quotas, they wanted their position protected in the new govt.

Gandhi believed quotas like that were a bad thing. And they went no where. What followed was the horror of the Partition

I believe hey at least had a chance for a unified country but Gandhi mis read things and that last chance was soon gone.

We’re at a point in being fucked worldwide where complaining about colonization at this point is idiotic.

People living their lives for tens of thousands of years is a mess, r2?

Colonial British history is interesting to and I need to get smarter. From the movies it looks like India was the domain of decadent English blacksheep standing around in gin sweaty linen.

The British considered themselves superior to all subjugated peoples in their colonies. They believed in manifest destiny. (The best people DESERVED to own the land of other people). They tried hard (via missionaries) to impose their religion upon the subjugated. They also imposed their morality. Virulent anti-homosexual attitudes were not a part of most cultures until the British were there. India is a prime example. Anti-homosexual feeling was not a traditional part of Hinduism, but under British rule, lots of laws outlawing homosexual behavior were enacted and imposed and that has left a residue among the Indian people which has lasted up until the present day.

[quote]The British considered themselves superior to all subjugated peoples in their colonies. They believed in manifest destiny.

Every conquering people on Earth has believed this.

The French tried to make the locals in their colonies real French citizens by mandating Catholicism and the use of the French language. On the one hand is was less racist, but in practice more brutal.

The Spanish colonies are a fucking basket case.

Bunch of stuck-up, self-entitled TOFFS! The fucking sarcasm and snark is insufferable. Fuck 'em!

The Brits fanned the flames and made the divide much much worse, try something else bitches, and why? Divide and conquer, the oldest truck in the book, they're paying dearly for it now.

Australia, Belize, Botswana, Brunei, Cyprus, the Falkands, Fiji, Ghana, Gibraltar, Guyana, Jordan, Kenya, Kuwait, Malaya, Malta, Mauritius, New Zealand, Qatar, The Seychelles and The Bahamas all seem to be doing well. Even the Thirteen American Colonies have been fairly successful until recently when they started flirting with authoritarian kleptocracy.

Blaming colonizers for your lot in life is like blaming your parents for your crappy life when you’re 40. Sure maybe they were assholes but at some point you have to take responsibility

Exactly r67.

The British did nice handover ceremonies.

Human social history is just a long tale of the oppressed vs. the oppressors.

[quote] The Brits fanned the flames and made the divide much much worse, try something else bitches, and why? Divide and conquer, the oldest truck in the book, they're paying dearly for it now.

How is this at all different from any other empire (or country) in history, from The Greeks onward? The Romans and the Normans used these tactics against England itself. The English used them against the Scots. The post-revolution Americans used them to engage in ethnic cleansing in their push from the Atlantic to The Pacific. The whole of human history is a story of invasion and displacement or assimilation.

R71 = the Borg

Don't blame Pakistan on the UK (or Bangladesh, "East Pakistan," for that matter). That was an internal decision by the time it happened.

You wanted the UK out?

The UK left.

R73, internal decision?

A Brit who had never traveled to India drew a line on the map and that was the border.

Yep. It's shockingly awful here. Stay away, Americans looking to move.

The Brits did leave America a mess. We had to fight a devastating civil war to fix it

Well, that was the point of all this rape and plunder OP

After WWII, France made the mistake of trying to keep her prized possessions Vietnam and Algeria and it cost France dearly.

Britain on the other hand pretty much said to its empire, “Right then. Off we go. We’ve got the Commonwealth now if you care to join it. Ta!”

See R54. Sever the eye!

Brit apologists. Dragging something from antiquity, not something that happened until the 1970s, try again butches, most problems today go back to the British and/or Spanish, French, Portuguese, the British were the worst because they were the best at it. And the Arabs didn't start the atlantic slave trade either. You stupid British are amazingly hateful, trump will take care of you now, tariffs everywhere hunny!

Well, they didn’t colonize Florida.

Th British set up the world trade system that was made possible by their system of resource extraction, shipping, manufacturing and redistribution. This was in addition to their economic overlay of a global banking system which established a global reserve currency. Britain lost their control of this system when the colonial powers all went to war against each other. That’s when the Americans took it over. I would say the world is a mess now and the Brit’s certainly did their part but it’s been a team effort. The colonies themselves are players in the game too. We will see if China can improve things. I have my doubts.

Brit possesses an itchy cooter, y’all.

Well the chickens have come home to roost and Britain is now a basketcase and a sithole just like its former colonies as the offspring of its former subjects gradually transform the UK..

It could be worse. The Arab colonies all suck and the Arabs never left.

Amazing how Brexit basically killed Britain—so basically the EU was propping It up for years

[quote] The Brits did leave America a mess. We had to fight a devastating civil war to fix it

If you hadn't left. You wouldn't have had to fight a devastating civil war and slavery would have been abolished a full half a century earlier.

R87, which is an example of leaving a colony a mess

The Brit’s did not leave the US they were thrown out. And then they came back a few years later and tried to unfuck the mess the Americans were making.

They got their ass kicked again

You can’t blame the Brits at least they tried.

We could have been Canada. Everyone but Trump loves Canada.

R86 That is simply untrue.