OK, So I immigrated to Italy after Covid. I can tell you all you need to know about the process

What's your body count since moving to Italy?

Ok how did you do it?

I understand there are ways for remote workers and ways if you enroll in a school. Things like that. At least to have legal residency.

I just wonder if Italy is going to start closing the door. I know requests are through the roof.

Isn't Italy run by a right-wing, neo-fascist nut job now too?

I would qualify for Italian citizenship. I've been thinking of doing it for access to other countries maybe France is what I was thinking. unless you say it's safe in Italy. Would bella Italia accept a lesbian couple? I don't want to get raped, robbed or killed. I speak and understand the language but not completely fluent. I was thinking it would be amazing in a little beach town. Grazie op

R1 = Mandy Knox

Giorgia Meloni is not that keen on the gays

Op is full of shit. Not a dingle, not a fact, as to how he hit where he is.

Zzzzz

[quote]I don't want to get raped, robbed or killed.

Then you really should leave the US. Chances of any of that happening are much, much, much lower in Italy.

R2, I did a study VISA through a language school. That’s not so easy to do now. But Italy JUST started the remote worker visa. I have a friend who is in the process of applying for one now for Italy.

And the ease of getting a visa comes down to where you live in the states and what consulate you have to go through. New York is notoriously difficult and rejects everyone. I think LA is the same. Miami, Philly are easier I believe.

R4 Italy does have Jure Sanguinis - right to citizenship through blood. But it’s not as easy as 1,2, 3. It can take years. There were people in my language class who hand parents born in Italy and they still first applied for student Visas while they worked on their citizenship. I can say it takes at least two, three years. It’s a process, so get started now getting everything you need together if that is the avenue you want to take.

R4 again. First I cannot emphasize enough the difference of living in Italy vs America when it comes to living in fear. I am gay, married, I am even black gay married. I have never once - not once - in three years e been afraid for my safety for either my color or my sexuality. It has never been an issue. I feel safer here when it comes to those two issues than I did even living in New York.

America is a violent country. America is an aggressive country. And America has lost any milk of human kindness. I forgot what not living in fear feels like until I moved here. No public drunkenness, no fights, no aggressiveness - it just hasn’t happen. People don’t attack other people. It’s just not done. So R4, without being naive or pollyanish about it - you don’t have to worry about anything you mentioned.

Most of the violence, murders you do hear about are within families, crimes of passion - jealous husband, boyfriend. The safety of women and violence against women in relationships is a big deal here now. But there isn’t random violence of strangers attacking, killing people. The most you have a pickpockets, robberies near train stations of high tourist areas. But you’d really have to be a rube to be targeted, like clueless of your surroundings.

R3, R5 Italy doesn’t have a two party system. Italy has about 20 different political parties with five major ones - Fratelli Italia (Brothers of Italy Meloni’s party), Cinque Stelle, La Lega, Democratic Party, Forza Italia. No party has ever gained a majority so they have to form coalitions between each other to get things done. Italy has a President AND a Prime minister. So its weakness of it being close to impossible to get legislation passed can also be a safety net.

I say all this to say Giorgia Meloni may huff and puff, but her hands are tied when it comes to getting sweeping, life changing legislation passed. It’s not like in America where one party can come in and change the course of the country, like a Trump. Oh, and Fascism is illegal here, so there is that.

Hate speech is illegal too. So you can’t stand somewhere and publicly denounce gays, or women or anyone based on their religious beliefs. You could get a ticket calling someone a faggot. You’d never see “God Hates Fags” signs like you do in the states. I’m not saying the sentiment doesn’t exist. It just there are protections from it.

In my personal experience I have found nothing but support for being gay. I’ll say my “marito” (husband and they’ll say you mean “moglia” correcting my Italian and I’ll say “no, mio marito” and it’s like ah, ok, ok, ok. There is a respect it seems for people strong enough to stand in their truth, at least Americans - if not just straight up curiosity.

Once Italians get to know you as a person, they really don’t give a fuck what you are - and that goes for all ages. They won’t disdain you for what you are if they know you to be a good person in general.

Meloni is a bigoted cunt but the Supreme Court threw out her ban on same sex couples adopting.

You’ve now bored us to tears. Your hysterical stereotypes of both the US and Italy indicate two things: we are better off without you here, while at the same time Italians disregard you. You’re notvery interesting nor very knowledgeable..

0/10

this thread is a great example why the DL has a bad rep. someone genuine seeming gets drags by anonymous cunts

Op is troll who’s dragged out this stuff before on other threads.

Puerto Ricans have a path to citizenship in Spain—but I believe you have to be born in PR

Stealth bragging

Perfectly safe, but the "violence against women." There goes any notion of moving to Italy for half the population, but glad you feel safe.

Sir, this is a Wendy’s.

I'm afraid of Americans. I'm afraid of the word. I'm afraid I can't help it...

Yass OP I have a question: how do I eat gelato every day and not get FAT?

[quote] America is a violent country. America is an aggressive country. And America has lost any milk of human kindness.

Get back to us after you’ve been to a football match over there. Mind the bananas tossed at the black players.

Thank you op & r11. What about money? OP do you have to have a certain amount in an Italian bank or a certain monthly income? Do they have something like the FDIC to protect your money in their banks? Are you now covered under their national medical plan, how long did that take and is there a cost for that? What area do you live in? And what do your living expenses amount to? Do you rent or own? Car? Car insurance? Tante grazie!

{quote] I did a study VISA through a language school. That’s not so easy to do now.

How is it not as easy now? Have rules/requirements been changed?

"OK, So"

Good grief.

[quote]Get back to us after you’ve been to a football match over there.

Just so you know:

Homicide Philadelphia 2022: 516 (in a city of 1.5 million).

Homicide Italy 2022: 322 (in a COUNTRY of 59 million).

R26, great questions. All my banking is still done in the United States. It is very hard to get a bank account here without being a citizen or having an Italian job with a contract. I bank with Charles Schwab because they are the best with conversions and waive international banking fees most of the time. There is an online bank here called FINECO which is an Italian bank account that wasn't as hard to get, and that is what I use to pay utilities and whatnot.

I am covered under the national health plan here. It was a process. Basically you start with a VISA from the states. If you are going to Italy, you convert that immediately into your permesso di soggiorno. You apply for that the first week you are here. But appoints are at best, 8 months out. But while you have your "renewal" receipt and your application is being processed you are allowed to stay in the country. The only drawback is that you can ONLY travel to your home country. You can't leave Italy to go anywhere else in Europe. Once you have your permesso card (almost a good year later), you can apply for your national ID card. With your ID card you can apply for your Tesseara Sanitaria (health card) and part of that is singing up for the national insurance. The first year I was a student my yearly (YEARLY!) national insurance was $170. Since then it has gone up. But to be honest, I have gone to mostly private doctors because I didn't want to go through the process in Italian which most national doctors obviously are. Yes the can speak English but when it comes to my health I want someone known for dealing with English speakers. The private doctor's visits are like $100 a pop, no real extra costs. The healthcare is good and it is really cheap. I had to have a dental work done here, an actual implant. The implant costs $2600 - and that's including about 15 different appoints for fitting, perfecting it, implanting it. The healthcare is really good. The doctors are good. The level of care I received with just that tooth would have been $11k easily in the States - it seemed a bit excessive but I felt very taken care of.

R26 Deciding where to live in Italy will make all of the difference in the world. The country is divided like America is, North vs. South. I started out in Rome, but I have since moved to Florence. Florence is like a little major city. I am used to NYC living, and this is pretty close as far as the accessibility of everything on foot. I have never really owned a car, and have never wanted to. That is why I gravitate to places where I can walk everywhere. And there are tons of towns in Italy where you can do that. Technically in Rome you can live without a car, but it is SO spread out, that if you live on the outskirts, you definitely need a car. Plus all the Hills killed me in Rome.

Tuscany is a great place to live. As far as places Americans gravitate towards Florence would be top of the list. It feels like a little America sometimes with the ex-pats and students. Lucca is very cool and not on everyone's radar. Lucca is also not far from Viaerggio and the Tuscan beaches. I hear Torino is very nice, but I have yet to go. And even though it's only 45 mins away, I have never been to Bologna. That is a leftist liberal bastion university town. A lot of smart people, young people, engaged in politics and activism.

I know people go on and on about Italy and the south. I say as am American, vacation in the south but live in the North. It will be more akin to the daily life you're used to. Cost of living varies wildly too. I live in a large one bedroom apartment with 500 year old painted ceilings, but the place has been completely redone, modernized. I live in Centro by Santa Croce. I pay 1900 euros about $2150 a month. That is A LOT for Italy. I mean obviously there are more expensive places. But in any other town, outside of the major cities, you will be paying far far less.

Utilities are much cheaper. I pay about $55 a month for two cell phones and home internet. Gas and electric is billed like every 2 or three months. Outside of rent, your cost of living is very low. Groceries feel like a fantasy. You can leave with three bags stuff with Eataly level quality meets and wines for $35. So your biggest expense, depending on how you want to live is rent or mortgage. The rest is gravy.

OP have you considered getting a blog? Your constant spamming of DL with your wittering about your life is very tedious.

R27, yes the rules have changed slightly. Or let me just say, they are enforcing the rules now more I think, at least I have heard. When I first moved here I was definitely an A1 level speaker, that is pretty much an absolute beginner. But I think the rule is you have to be at least at the B2 level. The school I went to (kinda known as a VISA farm) said I was B2 which got me here. This was just after covid as well, so they weren't really checking that closely. Now I think they are. I am not sure, but I think they might be cracking down on student visas for language schools. You need to be actually studying something.

Also, for decades, expats living here had what they called permanent resident Visas. That was before my time. But they changed the rule saying that does not exist anymore and all of those people have to reapply. So everything is so backed up now. On my most recent permesso renewal, the date they gave me for my appointment is February 2026. I am free to stay until then, which is cool. But I can't travel in Europe either, at least without sneaking over the border in a train or something. But that's not really worth the risk either.

Ok, So

R21 When I was referring to Violence against Women, I should have clarified that that is domestic abuse. Yes, that is unfortunate still. But it's not like random women are being targeted. My point being violent crime here in Italy seems to be within the family. It's not the random violence that leaves you scared to walk the streets by yourself at night. My 75 year old mother is coming to visit me in a couple of weeks for a month. I have absolutely no concern about her walking anywhere in this city by herself. I will always be with her, since she doesn't know much Italian, but I am not concerned for her safety at all.

I remember visiting my family in Atlanta last time and shopping at the Whole Foods and thinking I am too close to the door if someone walked in and started shooting. Some guy at our hotel started freaking at the breakfast, screaming at everyone. He looked like the type who'd have a stockpile of guns in his room. We took our breakfast upstairs to our room. That is the kind of shit in America that used to cross my mind constantly - what COULD happen, what would I do, how can I prepare myself. Living with that going in the back of your thoughts, always thinking how you're might have to defend yourself against a threat, is very heavy and no way to live.

R35 You are deeply mentally ill.

OP, ignore the nuts on this thread.

Ok, So which dodgy language school will help me get a visa through deception?

I don't want to give their name to put them on blast. Just research language schools in Rome that are a great value. And it's not Leonardo school.

Thank you r30 & r31! You do pay a lot for rent but I'm sure it's gorgeous. I have an Italian friend here on a business owner visa. He has a house in Tuscany and has invited us to go visit. I know the lady that runs the Italian consulate in my city and I'll get with her on strategy. In 2016 I asked my CPA about tax consequences for dual citizenship and he talked me out of it. But like you said, the quality of life is different. Do you have any insight into the Southern region? I've heard Calabria is gorgeous but I've never been. I've been to Florence, Rome, Rimini and all over Sicily. Do you have any insight on gay life in Sicily? That is strange that you cannot travel through Europe while going through the visa process. But Italy has so much to see so we could do that while we wait. Piacere voi!

R4, Southern Italy is gorgeous. That is why I say it's really nice to to travel through, vacation there. But when it comes to everyday life, I think as an American you will find it very frustrating. You will be scratching your head a lot, and asking a lot of "Why do they do..?" or "Why don't they do..?" Even living in Florence, my body is JUST starting to get used to the way Italians do things. I get any errands I want done in the morning then go to the gym. And anything I have left to do I do have 3/4PM. For years I would get up, get my day started, head to the gym and start running my errands are 1pm only to realize everything is closed. Stores are closed usually between 1-3 / 4. A store will find any reason to be closed - holiday, lunch, ferie. The country shuts down in late July, August - things don't open up again until the first week of September. Amazon because essential if you need anything. It sounds like a beautiful life, and it is. It just that if you are trying to get any work done, waiting for any kind of paperwork, just know it's not going to happen once everything closes. Southern Italy is 10X more lax. I swear Italians love living and hate working. You start to feel weekend vibes setting in on a Tuesday.

That is one thing I have learned - you learn more about what it means to be American living outside of America. One thing that Italians really respect about Americans is their time management skills, their to-do-list, multi-tasking and just their ability to get shit done. You don't realize how engrained this in in you until you butt heads with a culture that is anything but that. Americans are very "seize the day," "make the most of every opportunity." In Italy, it's best to concentrate on doing one thing at a time, and focus on that. And the odd thing is, you learn the earth WON'T shift off it's axis if you're not making the most out of every hour you're awake.

Here are some interesting insights I have learned about Italians that you never hear anyone speak about, and you don't learn unless you are observant and live here:

Italians are nice but they aren't considerate. They are good people, but if they can get away with something, they will. It is really all about them. If there is a line, they will ignore it and get in front of you, pretending they don't see you or know that there is a line. There is no respect for a line in Italy. As soon as I see a line, I know it's a bunch of tourist.

You always hear about Italian design. But Americans do interior design better when it comes to homes. Americans know how to stage a place where you just want to walk into it and live. Italians have no concept really of making an inviting, liveable space. It's odd. Just look at Airbnb or look for rentals on immobiliare.it . You will have a lot of "WTF?" questions. Like why would you showcase a bed with just a sheet and pillows that look like they're stuffed with old newspapers? They can make things beautifully, they just don't seem to be good at putting together the bigger picture. Italian design can be beautiful but not practical.

Italians love to talk. Talking is breathing to them and they love to hear the sound of their own voice. They love to pontificate.

Italians do not know how to walk in the street. The walk like spilled milk. This will be one of the most frustrating things for any American. They walk slow, will take up the entire sidewalk. Just when you want to pass, they spread out. They stop at the narrowest part of the street to figure out where they are going. They turn around and talk to each other constantly. They will be standing in your way AND see you coming and not step aside to make room, they will see you approach and you have to ask them to make room. Don't say "Scusi" say "Permesso" and they seem to jump out of the way with that one. They will be walking two by two on a narrow street and make you step aside to get around them. They have no sense of the space, the world around them, or that anyone else exists. They will walk into you..

If you are looking for Depth of Flavour in food, Italy isn't your place. The quality of the food is very good, and it can be very satisfying. But for the most part it is basic. You will not have complex flavour profiles. They don't even like to serve food items on the same plate, everything is separate. They are very fastidious about their food, at times unnecessarily so. You won't die if you eat something sweet WHILE you eat something savory, you don't have to save it for last.

And Italian breakfast suck. I miss my big ole American breakfasts sometimes. Even the French will crack an egg in the morning. Luckily in Florence there are a couple of good American Brunch places. Italians will have a cornetto/brioche and an caffè (espresso) and that's it. Basically dessert for breakfast. It's no wonder they are all ready for a nap at 12:30. AND I absolutely had to buy an American coffee machine and order Starbucks from Amazon, non of that Mocha pot nonsense for me.

Their entertainment is weird. Again, no one knows about entertainment better than Americans. Funny enough this really hit me watching Rupaul's drag race international allstars here. I was like wow, these girls are really lacklustre compared to what Americans push themselves to do. Italians can be super duper cheesy when it comes to music and entertainment - embarrassingly so sometimes.

Thanks for your insights, OP. I’ve found Italians to be incredibly friendly and accommodating to strangers/tourists. But as you point out, living in a place and learning its rhythms is totally different from visiting.

Have watched some Italian TV, like variety and game shows. Hilariously cheesy.

I agree with you about the moka pot and breakfast, op. I used a Bialetti on and off over the years and never liked the coffee it made. I switched to one made by Alessi, and it's entirely different. And cornetti are awful. How about those thin linen towels in the bathroom? Do they still use those?

R44 you must reminded of something else America has over Italy - cleaning products. I guess our just more toxic or something. If my nostril hairs weren't singed after cleaning my bathroom in NYC, I didn't consider it clean. But If I could bring a suitcase of Bounty back with me, I would. I do bring Dawn back with me though. And you can put your through the garbage bags. But I guess things here are produced with the ecology in mind. BUT I wouldn't trade the food, the produce here, for nothing. I snapped this pic at the grocery store to show people what celery should look like. This is just a local regular super market, like a Krogers.

^ you can put your thumb through the garbage bags.

R26 Just to give you another idea of the the cost of health care here. I pay my mom's bills online. She just recently had blood tests done - just the regular test for a check up. Her bill was $1754 and with two different kinds of medical insurance, she still had to pay $300 of that. Whereas here, I had thorough bloodwork done this past summer at a private doctor, not even on the state healthcare system, so all expenses are out of pocket, no coverage. By blood tests, no insurance came to $145, less that 1/10th. I had an MRI at the same time, $170. So private doctors out of pocket are less than Doctors with insurance in the United States.

OP did your Italian friends laugh when you told them about importing Starbucks or is that your embarrassing little secret?

What do you do for work/income?

R48, there are three Starbucks in Florence alone. Probably the same amount in Rome. They are all over Milan, unfortunately. So nothing really embarrassing about it. I just buy in bulk on Amazon. The prices are higher in store because most people do not have American coffee machines.

I was a sales bottom for over 10 years at one of the best department stores in the world when I worked in NYC r49. I still work with my clients who buy luxury goods here and have it shipped to the states and charge a fee. Basically I am a personal shopper and source goods here for clients. To add to the list of nice things about living outside of America is that you don't have to make a killing every day just to enjoy a decent adult life. I mean a very good salary in Italy is like 75K a year. Most people make less than that. I make far less than I did in NYC, but all my needs are met, I travel around Italy and enjoy my life. I had a decent 401k that I pulled some money out of when they weren't penalizing you for early withdrawal during covid. I reinvested it and that helps supplement my income as well.

Italy is no better than the US concerning LGB issues, worse actually, just one point difference, they don't like you anymore than Americans, get over it bitch. And the corruption is off the charts, worse than Louisiana I think.

R42 as a long time resident of Italy (now back in the states), I have to say, some of my observations are quite different.

[quote]Italians are nice but they aren't considerate. . If there is a line, they will ignore it and get in front of you, pretending they don't see you or know that there is a line.

In my Tuscan town, and my observation throughout the country, is that Italians are very courteous and attentive to that sort of thing.

One thing you should be aware of: many people that you might think are Italian, aren't. Italy has a huge Albanian and Romanian population. They come from very different cultures with a way of doing things that can be very different from the way Italians behave.

RE: interiors. I don't think you're wrong but I think it depends on social class. I worked for years in design in Italy and have collaborated with interior designers there including one of the most prominent. I was used to very luxe, very gorgeous homes and hotels. Because of my work, my social contacts are pretty well-to-do, people with beautiful, well designed places. But I agree that the average middle class homes in the US have much nicer living quarters.

Food: I agree with you. Tuscan food especially is very basic. And for an American it can get monotonous. But I became very used to those simple tastes and appreciated the high quality of everything.

Entertainment: I agree. But again, after years of living there I now appreciate the goofy TV and popular culture. It reminds my of the US in the 1960s. And I LOVE Italian pop music.

R52 - Yeah, I don't trust OP's opinion on how nice and open-minded he says people are about race and LGB. It doesn't match with what we see online. I think he has a small group - or just isn't tuned into their reactions.

OP - what does black married mean? Are you both black? One partner black? Which partner is black?

I lived and worked decades in Italy as an out gay man. Never any problems and always felt perfectly comfortable.

R54 I am black and I am gay, married to a man. You don't have to believe what I say about anything. But I am speaking from my personal experience and I am not lying. To be honest, the discrimination may be higher and more felt for actual Italians than it would be for an American. Actual Italians are in the work force, grew up in families that are expecting them to get married and having children. I don't face any of that pressure as an expat here not in the workforce. I have never had any issue or felt unsafe or discriminated against for being gay. It has been a non-issue for me. Of course being black and American and gay is a lot to process for some people, so maybe they give me a wider breadth. But it's not like I am walking around in American flag bootie shorts. I am just my normal self and deal with people. Fioritini are known for being reserved, a bit standoffish in general. But once you're in with them, you're in regardless.

R53, they are definitely Italians when it comes to the lines. Actually Italians are the ones who clued me into how lines or non-lines work. I started out in Rome and I've found it to be the same here in Florence. It's not like they push you down to get ahead of you. You just have to stand your ground a bit. The best example I can give is if you are standing waiting for a hostess to take your name down for a table at a restaurant. If someone walks up behind you to wait as well, they have no qualms about starting to talk to the hostess before you do when she arrives. There is no like "You were here first, you go first."

I agree with you 100% R55. I think the gay relationships are harder within families because there is a lot of pressure on kids to be something else. But I have never run into any obstacles being gay. And to be honest, some of the men kind of like it, find it curious. I know that may seem like a reach. But they respect you more for it in an odd way. That's the way it feels to me - when you don't make a big deal about being gay but have no problem correcting someone or letting them know you are. It's not a big issue.

Oddly Italy is less religious than America. I know that may ring false as well, but it's true. I think a lot of Italians see the church as just another bureaucratic branch of the government. I don't know any Italians who got Church on Sunday. I rarely see Italians going to Church. A lot of them believe it is a lot of bullshit. They will have their ceremonies but that is more out of respect for tradition than any actual belief. I am curious to know if anyone else having lived in Italy feels the same.

Easter is the perfect example. Easter is treated like thanksgiving here - a day to get together with family and have a big meal. Then the next day you go out with all of your friends and do the same thing. Never once have I heard anyone say they are going to church first. The Catholic Church is one body with one person speaking for it. It's not like there are pastors all over the country spouting off about the deadly sin of homosexuality. Europe in general has been much more secular than the United States. The churches are works of art and not really places of worship. Americans tend to forget the Europeans who first "discovered" the new world were insane religious zealots - a puritanical foundation.

Trust me, the thing I am still wrapping my head around is that America is not the country I thought it was. There are progressive issues that other countries deal much better with than America. There are places where the overall population is more educated and not easily manipulated. There are places that are just better in a lot of ways than the United States. Especially now.

OP's comment "Of course being black and American and gay is a lot to process for some people, so maybe they give me a wider breadth." - that's a refreshing and insightful take.

Ok - I believe you. But I don't know if everyone would have the same reception. You could definitely be seen as unique and fascinating - I'd imagine they don't come across a lot of ex-pats who are gay black Americans. A unicorn type of experience.

You may be getting a very different reception than other people - so good for you. I'm sure it's better than the US.

R57 Agreed. The church permeates the air in Italy. It's in the dust. The whole history of the country. Churches, cathedrals everywhere. Church bells sounding all the time. The Catholic Church is their culture, but Italians are not overtly "religious". At least not as Americans understand the word.

R58 my experience is different for sure. My husband is white by the way, so I get to observe how he is treated as well. I see how other black people are treated. I am not what they are used to seeing. When they watch me, I don't take it personally at all. It's curiosity and much different than in America. Italy is a pretty homogenous culture, like most European towns outside of major cities. They are used to a certain type of black person - usually trying to sell them something, someone in need, someone to be sorry for, to help, to avoid. They aren't used to people like me moving through their spaces, eating in their restaurants, shopping right next to them in their stores, wearing the same nice clothes, having more money than them. I get that. It's expected and it doesn't bother me.

America is different. White America has had hundreds of years to acclimate itself to the idea of black people in their spaces. They have had hundreds of opportunities to find ways to bridge the gaps, find common ground, make a friend, educate themselves on a personal level and not just through cultural studies classes or what they read about or see on TV. But I'd dare say most haven't even tried. I still have to make some white Americans comfortable with my presence, put them at ease. And at this point, it's just wilful ignorance on their part. Of course this is not by any means ALL white people. I am just saying when I encounter the same reaction from some white Americans as I do Italians, I'm like "come on dude..."

But once Italians have seen me a number of times in the neighbourhood, in the same stores, walking the same streets as they do day after day, at the gym, if you're a decent person there is no difference in how they treat you. I see that with African immigrants as well, you just become part of the fabric of the community - even though black Americans are treated differently than Africans since Africans are seen as the Mexicans of Italy.

All of this is blowing my mind.

[quote]I agree with you 100% [R55]. I think the gay relationships are harder within families because there is a lot of pressure on kids to be something else. But I have never run into any obstacles being gay. And to be honest, some of the men kind of like it, find it curious. I know that may seem like a reach. But they respect you more for it in an odd way. That's the way it feels to me - when you don't make a big deal about being gay but have no problem correcting someone or letting them know you are. It's not a big issue.

I lived with my BF in a restored farm house together with his widowed father. My BF and I slept in the same bedroom although there was a spare bedroom I could have used. His brothers and their families lived nearby on the same country road.

Never, ever had any problems with his family or neighbors. And my circle of friends is/was straight people. My two best friends there are straight men.

I was not an expat living in a bubble. I worked. Lived as an Italian. Learned the language fluently. People would hear my accent and not be able to place it. Most just assumed I was European, maybe Swiss or Danish, I'd get that a lot.

Point is, like you, I never felt uncomfortable living there as a gay man. Italians have a very live-and-let -live attitude.

No, the country doesn't have gay marriage. It has civil unions. You can't adopt kids. None of that is a concern for me but I know it does affect others. But I can only speak for my self and my experiences living there. I'm in the US now but am looking forward to going back.

R60 - I totally believe you. Being a black gay American, this is probably the first time in your life that these things are an advantage and not something people hold against you.

When my ex-partner and I lived in Paris many years ago, he said it was the first time in his life as a black American where he didn't feel like a second class citizen. And we're from NYC, which is probably the most ethnically and culturally diverse city in the US. (I'm white, btw)

He didn't want to move back to the US and I understood why. Another American friend of mine in Paris moved back to the States and decided that when she gets married, she wants to move to France and raise her kids there. And that's exactly what she did - she's in Lyons for the past 23 years raising her 3 black daughters and has never regretted it a minute.

R53 / R62 that is a great way to put it. There is a very live and let live attitude overall. It really just comes down to what type of person are you?

That’s why it’s crazy to me when people compare Meloni to Trump or the fact that Italy doesn’t have gay marriage or the Pope is in Rome to explain how religious must be. You can’t compare the two. America when dealing with racism, homosexuality, religion is a completely different animal.

In the spirit of full disclosure, I will answer R1s question with my observations about gay sex in Italy. Because even though I am married, I have hooked up - which is allowed in my relationship.

Italian men are sexy. God are they sexy. But in a way, they aren't sexual. Italy isn't really a hookup culture. Of course it happens. But it's not like people go out to find one night stands. It's one of the reasons the study abroad American girls are so popular because they are looking for sex in ways Italian girls aren't and are they are seen as easy. But compared to NYC, where sex is just in the air at all times, Italy is not the same. I felt like a sex addict in NYC - not that I was always having it, but I always felt I was looking for some kind of sexual gratification. Here, my drive has definitely tempered to the point where I could live with or without it. Part of that could be just getting older too.

I was never into younger guys really. But here that changed, because the younger men (late teens to early 20s) are so attractive in comparison. You see them and you want to devour them. My experience with them has only been admiring them, and that's enough. But boy will a lot of them make you horny. They are so earnest and sweet with no air of machismo. Or when they try out machismo, they're like puppy dogs, it's adorable.

Back to it not really being sexual. Gays on Grinder here are not like Gays in America who tell you exactly what they are looking for - which makes things easier. Here if you ask someone what they are looking for they'll just say "Divertimento" which is just "Fun." I'm like OK this is a sex app, obviously you are looking for fun, but what type of fun? And it just drags on from there until you put you turn off your phone. It's like, please come out swinging with what turns you on so I can know if we are a match or not.

And to be 100% honest, someone needs to do a PSA for the gays here in Italy. Overall Italians are more hygienic because they are used to using a bidet, actually washing their butts, with soap, after going to the bathroom. In a fastidious way, they even avoid putting their bare feet on the floor. We have the towel dance in locker rooms in the states. They have the ciabatta (shower shoe) dance when they undress trying not to touch the floor with their feet. BUT someone needs to explain to them that a clean ass is not a clean hole, that they need to address what's going on inside. You could eat thanksgiving dinner out of bottoms hole in NYC. Someone here will want to hook up coming from work and I'll ask, well are you ready to have sex, and they say they took a shower. Invariably you run into issues. That's another thing that has put me off from hooking up.

And as far as dick size, Italians overall seem to be smaller than Americans. They are physically smaller men in general. You can always tell Americans working out at my gym, because they are like giants in comparison - besides the incessant talk about protein and gains. But I am bigger than most of the guys I have hooked up with and I am just a little bigger than average. Or if they are hung it's like a gourd. There are more pretty dicks in America, ha! Their bodies are lean to average, small chests, physically fit compared to Americans. There are no huge muscled out guys for the most part. a 50 year old guy will have the build of a 17 yo boy. Again of course my experience has been limited here in general.

Well I am sorry to hear that Italian men are asexual, homoromantic, whatever. They must be fundamentally broken on some level.

Or they’re just not Uber sluts looking to give blowjobs to strangers in the back room of the cock. But I can be completely wrong on that. I am older now and I really slugged it up in NYC for years - so the type of thing I’d not on my radar here.

I must say there are more gay sex clubs in Rome than NYC. I never went to any so I don’t know who or how well attended they are.

They do like to go all out for a club party. The link is the big gay club in Rome - Maccassassina. It was their Pre-US Election party.

^Slutted it up, ha! I never threw punches. I’m a lover not a fighter.

R63. Where is this place you call lyons?