I don't understand the "she/they" pronoun usage.

So, to be clear, they're not old 17/18 year olds

OP, anyone making their pronouns known to anyone are attention seeking, egocentric twats who believe the world runs on their 'feelings '.

My daughter-in-law's sister does the "they" thing. I just can't. I'm old and it's too confusing. I can't tell who "they" is when there are several people in the conversation. I try to just say her name every fucking time.

Wasn't "don't split your pronoun" one of the first rules they taught you in Catholic school English class?

It's exhausting.

We were all young once. I'll forgive a teenager. But after a certain age all this stuff is pretty silly.

By definition ALL pronouns have antecedents.

Therefore, there is almost no situation in which you could not substitute that antecedent - that person's name - rather than struggling to remember a random pronoun.

Who was the celeb who complained a few months back that a magazine article only used one of their chosen (she/they) pronouns and not both? I try to be respectful but I am so confused by this shit

OP, they're trying to be trans without actually being trans.

It's all a bunch of make believe bullshit.

And you have to play along or you're toast.

It's just virtue signaling. Their way of showing solidarity as well as dipping their toes in the idea of opting out of the modern expectations of womanhood that chafe. Mostly it's just a way of declaring how special and not like the other girls they are.

Cunts.

Everyone's an it.

Problem solved.

I'm an ESL and I asked about this on DL years ago but got no answers. That is, why do people write "they/them" instead of just "they". What kind of a person identifies one way in the nominative, but another in the accusative/dative? Isn't that indicative of a split personality?

OP, sort of a timely thread for me. My recent ex-boss (I’m still on the group email list) sent out two messages recently. I noticed she’d changed her pronouns in the signature line from she to she/they. Made me scratch my head.

This is a woman - forgive me, cis-het female - in a decades-long relationship with a (cis-het) male partner.

I know her fairly well, we always had a chatty/amiable relationship. But since I haven’t worked there in half a year or so I haven’t been witness to any recent changes.

I asked two colleagues, separately, and both said more or less the same thing that R10 says (virtue signaling, solidarity, etc.).

I don’t want to be judgmental. I have one close NB friend who uses they/them pronouns, which of course makes sense to me. At the same time, I have noticed some folks self identifying as queer but that has zero to do with their sexuality, sexual orientation, or gender identity. I guess it’s fine. But it seems just like a piece of clothing to put on. And take off. At will. My being gay is less ephemeral than that.

I'm a dinner jacket. He/him.

I'm cruelty free, fair trade, vegan organic DARK chocolate. It/💩

OP the answer has been the same since Eve waffled in front of the Tree of Knowledge.

Women can’t make up their minds.

Good to hear from 1972 male chauvinist R16.

God I thought the stupid pronoun thing was dying out.

Fuck pronouns. I will refer to these people by their given name and that’s that. No extra effort thank you.

It’s a mockery of gays and lesbians.

My sister is now in her 20s so I have already seen some of her friends phase out of the “queer / they” scene they were involved with in high school and grew out of it now that they’re in college.

But a lot of it is a mockery and typically young girls appropriating the gay and lesbian experience for victimhood and as a form of rebellion.

Maybe I’m going on too long with this but coming out can be as much a traumatic experience for our parents as much as it can be for us.

Gays and lesbians typically don’t want to put the burden of coming out on their friends and family. It can be rough for everyone. Kids today use it as a form of rebellion and it’s really shitty in my opinion.

My parents were accepting but I found out years later they had a rough time with it.

It’s downright abusive and toxic to cosplay “queer experience”. And a lot of them do.

A number of women in my fitness class introduce themselves as "she/they". A bunch look like lesbians but about half are your basic straight white women!

It seems to really mean something to them. I see it as crypto-misogyny, causing women to move away from their female identities, but only slightly. I find it insane.

It's not crypto-misogyny when it's mostly basic white fraus using it to come across as more interesting. I know of at least two female film and TV critics who hopped on the queer train so they could cover gay movies without blowback. Both completely straight women, but they had a crush on a female movie star once, which makes them queer somehow. One of them eventually felt like her queer street cred started slipping and she went fully NB they/them as a result.

[quote] Another girl wanted she/they. So is she trans or what?

No, she's more likely an enbie.

"She/they" almost always means the person does not care if you use "she"-set pronouns (she/her/her) to describe her, or, alternately, "they"-set pronouns (they/them/their).

Since you're calling her a "girl" and "she," she would have no trouble with the choice you've made. So why worry further about it?

I don't get it either, OP.

I never met a non-binary person who wasn't a deeply damaged and/or attention-seeking individual.

The rise of feminine logic.

Trans ideology is so regressive. Trucks and blue? Boy. Lipstick and heels? Girl.

r26, it's reductive.

Tiresome people looking for drama in their lives.

So when do the T & Q Defender Fraus jump in...are they all asleep?

Remember when we used to look for fun at bars?

In my experience - the people who are dedicated to using these pronouns are predominantly females. All females. I am yet to meet a male who uses alternative pronouns. There does seem to be an attention seeking factor in the mix.

I just don't let it bother me and ignore the whole thing. I refer to everyone by name which makes it easier for me. Eventually this will die out and be replaced with something which will get everybody just as mad and worked up.

It’s about being special and interesting, OP, and sadly, achieving neither.

I was always taught (by the Sisters of Charity, no less) that it was incredibly rude to refer to someone as “he” or “she” when one knew their name. So, name it is for me!

Which is probably literal violence to someone I guess. Not that I care.

The whole she they thing is ridiculous

What is correct?

Karen has just messaged, she is running late for the meeting

Or

Karen has just messaged, they are running late for the meeting

When she, when they?

BE SPECIFIC KAREN

r24 or autistic and drawn in by the TRA gender ideology virtue signalling cult.

It's worse than $cientology and Evangelical Christianity at this point.

Just say "Karen is running late for a meeting" R33. Simple.

R35 in that case you don’t use pronouns you just use the person’s name constantly.

Karen messaged, Karen is going to be late and Karen has suggested we leave the discussion about vaginal atrophy until Karen is here.

The most ironic thing about this whole "pronoun gang" is that DEI departments at employers requiring employees to incorporate them into email signatures, profiles, meeting introductions, etc., have made it so just normal trans people who wanted nothing more than to pass and blend in as the gender the identify as may be put into "what are your pronouns" situations.

Why is this ironic, because society just going by what they see and using the appropriate gender pronouns was always a way for trans people to be affirmed that they pass well enough. Now, asking them their pronouns and how they identify may actually be a trigger and make them self-conscious about passing. This is what happens when you politicize a medical/mental disorder.

^ *pronoun game

R36: some of the Wikipedia entries on public figures who started identifying as non-binary somewhere along the way are written that way, where the author avoids using pronouns altogether and keeps repeating the person's surname.

Precious Luxander ("proud skeptic") goes by "it", R11.

The worst is a female student I taught who requested "any pronouns."

If you're okay with "any pronouns," then why announce it?

God help them if they ever had REAL problems.

Hopefully OP keeps us updated with further dispatches from the Learning Annex.

It’s definitely a thing here in the liberal suburbs. Like 15 to 20% of the high school girls decide they identify as non-binary and want to use they/them as pronouns. This is according to both parents and teachers (I’m friends with several of each)

It seems in part a resistance to taking on the culturally submissive, “less-than” gender. I get that. But yeah it asks a lot from the teachers, to remember who wants what and to get in hot water when you fuck up — which you will.

I have a friend who is genuinely accepting of (and very patient with!) her SJW/Aspie grown daughter—until the girl asked Mom to please remember to alternate she/they pronouns in referring to them/her. NFW said the mom.

I had assumed pronoun politics had peaked in 21 22 and has been dying down since. Wrong?

[quote]...have made it so just normal trans people who wanted nothing more than to pass and blend in...

BWAHAHA!

Please, stop, you're KILLING ME! Ahahaha! "Wanting nothing more than to blend in"! Oh, you are a caution!

In the the past school year or two our school board (I’m a teacher) anonymously surveyed both employees and students about a number of things. One of the areas was gender identity. About 5-10% of employees identified as “non-heterosexual” (there are so many groups anymore they used this broad term). However, I was shocked that 20% of high school students fell into this group. This just seems to have exploded since Covid. Everyone is special now.

Very interesting video by a (straight, sadly) PhD in linguistics about pronouns...

If you're a "she," you cannot be a "they."

Besides, "they" is plural. Get another word. But you're still a "she."

If you're a she, when would there be time to be a "they?'

My pronouns are Marilu/Henner and you better remember it!

OP: Unless the subject of your post is the size of Lizzo, she cannot be a "they."

I worked with some 30ish straight males who signed their emails "My pronouns are he/him". They weren't joking.I avoided them.

R44 It’s a scene.

I’m sure that 15-20% are majority white girls who would have identified as emo, goth, punk, hippie, beatnik in another era.

I’m sure the cheerleading squad all identify as she / her / female.

I saw a woman who wrote a book on the subject on Joe Rogan's show.

She equated the outbreak of trans gender ideas among teenage girls to cutting.

If I understood her correctly she saw it as a form of self-mutilation due to anxiety.

[quote]She equated the outbreak of trans gender ideas among teenage girls to cutting.

A lot of them are, indeed, cutters and struggle with suicide ideation. They have a mental illness. It's actually irresponsible to politicize it the way it has been.

Don't even try, OP. They have personality disorders, don't get drawn into them. Use their name if you need to refer to them. Most times we don't even use pronouns when they are in the room. It is so absurd.

Somebody needs to explain to the overweight blue-hair community that the answer to feeling unattractive isn’t to make yourself even uglier. Whether that starts at home or at school or at church or at Dairy Queen. Somebody’s got to explain to these dopes that they’re not going to solve their problems in life by declaring they/themselves “queer”.

R59, I think you've called me a dope a few times. It is not a common expression nowadays. I actually agree with your post.

- R58

[quote]Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

Ever since I binged Brooklyn 99, whenever I see his name, all I can think of is "Jimmy Jab Games."

R59 It’s a coping mechanism to being or feeling ugly. To get even uglier.

That’s why, as I said earlier in this thread, they identify “queer” with ugliness.

That’s why the gay world is another planet because it demands high beauty standards, which is such a contradiction to female “queer” ideology.

[quote] Somebody needs to explain to the overweight blue-hair community that the answer to feeling unattractive isn’t to make yourself even uglier.

You stole that line from Jessica Lange as Joan Crawford in "Feud" when she used it with Susan Sarandon as Bette Davis.

[quote]It’s a coping mechanism to being or feeling ugly.

It's not always aesthetic based - more often than not it's completely ordinary people who having nothing remarkable about them.

They're not ugly, because being ugly would make them remarkable. They are overtly average, people who are neither top of the class or bottom of the class, people who are neither liked or disliked, people who just make up the numbers.

And there is nothing wrong with that, the world is full of wallflowers and background actors, but adopting this persona also gives them an excuse as to why they haven't done better than they had hoped - transphobia!

Demanding that everyone act in accordance with your whims at all times (and responding with fury if they don't) is a way of asserting control.

I suppose some people do it out of anxiety etc., but a lot of the people doing this are simply being manipulative. Kids do this with their parents because (all too frequently these days) the parents let them.

At 58, writer and "Transparent" creator Joey Soloway must be one of the oldest "they/thems" out there (along with 68-year-old Judith Butler and 57-year-old Masha Gessen)

This is all a fad.

Do non-binaries consider themselves some sort of "gray area" morph between male and female, or as I heard lately, they fluctuate between masc and fem?

r68 They, and other gender ideologists/cultists don't believe that terms like man, woman, boy, girl are biological terms. They believe they are "social terms" and therefore malleable. If they deviate even a little from the social norms of what it means to be a boy or girl or man or woman, then they reason they must not be a boy/girl/man/woman because they don't conform to societal gender standards.

Ironically, they are still conforming to societal gender standards with the nonbinary label.

Sinister terminology such as “birthing bodies” over “pregnant women” seems to come from mtf in some female erasure game. And a lot of women go for it. I’m a cis het female!

Creeps me out a lot. Then I stop reading Reddit for a while.

r70 Sadly, it mainly comes from trans men (women who live and identify as men) and women who identify as nonbinary. The amount of trans women pushing for those "gender neutral" gynecological terms is a lot fewer than I initially thought compared to trans men. But then when I thought about it, it makes sense. Trans men, being females, still need to work heavily with gynecologists before, during, and even after their transition.

So, they would constantly be bombarded with those "triggering" female terms at every doctors visit. And we can't have that. Because they're "men" and men absolutely need to see gynecologists about their bits, especially when they get pregnant.

This female OB-GYN is the worst offender when it comes to doing this shit.

R71, I agree it's all bullshit. Trans men are still women and can get knocked up.

I'm sorry, but at 57 I can't ever remember your name let alone your special pronoun requests.

No substitutions?

I don't get it either. Pick one.

I just say names. I refuse to play along.

Good Lord. Gen Z females are exhausting.

R54, was it a professional setting where all those 30-something guys could have just been mandated by their employers to have pronoun listing in their signature line? Or was it a different situation?

Myself and seemingly 99% of all other men just look at this “pronouns in signature” trend as meaningless posturing. I feel like saying “use whatever fucking pronouns about me you want.” Language evolved over centuries to function efficiently and it’s the height of hubris for some current day activists to barge in and try to up-end linguistic conventions going back so long.

I never understand why EVERYONE needs to specify their pronouns, even when the vast majority of humans use the pronoun you'd assume they'd use simply by looking at them. Trans people are a tiny minority, so why does the other 99% have to bother with this pronoun announcing bullshit? How's this for an idea: If someone wants to be called something *other* than we'd assume by merely looking at them, then those individuals can let us know!

Or is that literal violence and I'm now cancelled?

If you're confused by these NB pronouns, here's one thing you must understand:

*Your confusion and the NB's outrage about being misgendered is not a bug to them, it's a feature.*

There was a 1965 song called Are You a Boy or Are You a Girl by The Barbarians. I've got lots of trivia imprinted in my old brain.

[quote] I never understand why EVERYONE needs to specify their pronouns

I’ve never once had to specify my pronouns. I’ve only known one (1) person in real life who uses they / them (male and also was fine with he/him pronouns in order to not make a fuss) pronouns and I socialize and work in a sphere that you all claim it happens 20% of the time. This (as with all of these “QUEERS!!1!!1!”) threads is just the latest of the umpteen Old Man Yells at Cloud threads on this topic. You people are willfully delusional, completely out of touch with reality and have had your brains broken by Reddit.

[quote] Creeps me out a lot. Then I stop reading Reddit for a while.

This commenter says it all, while simultaneously not getting it lol. Go outside. Real life isn’t your algorithm feed.

At NYU identifying pronouns is optional among students and faculty. Pretty much the same at all colleges and universities. I simply use my name and credentials when relevant professionally. Doesn’t particularly bother me when someone wants to be they or whatever. reminds me of the Ms/Mrs/Miss distinctions years ago.

Young people are perhaps less comfortable with their self identity than older folks. Nothing new- just a newer and different way of expression. Not hard to respect them. Certainly is better than dismissing them especially if you are charged with teaching and mentoring (my role).

[quote]I’ve never once had to specify my pronouns.

When I said "everyone" I wasn't referring to everyone on earth, but rather many individuals who don't identify as a they/them yet still feel the need to list their preferred pronouns on their social media, etc. For instance sometimes I'll go to a company's website and look through their staff and for some inexplicable reason the company feels the need to include EVERYONE'S preferred pronouns--not just the ones who are gender non-conforming or whatever the hell you want to call it. 99% of these people appear to be the gender that they prefer to be called (meaning they look male and identify as male or look female and identify as female), so why do they even need to bother telling us? It's stupid. I look male...I identify as male...so you can just go ahead and assume I'm male, and if I have any objections to that *THEN* I'll let you know! I don't need to state the obvious and waste everybody's time.

[quote] When I said "everyone" I wasn't referring to everyone on earth, but rather many individuals who don't identify as a they/them yet still feel the need to list their preferred pronouns on their social media, etc.

So when you said “everyone” you meant a very small number of people in limited situations lol. I see you’re changing the meaning of a word that we’ve used in a known sense for ages. Funny that.

It began, of course, as a show of solidarity for trans people on Twitter and was subsequently adopted by certain HR departments, under the guise that it was the "decent and considerate thing to do." It'll run its course. About a decade from now, you'll be able to date a "pronouns in the bio/email signature" back to the period 2018-2026 (when it will likely die out).

^ Thank God. It's really absurd.

[quote]So when you said “everyone” you meant a very small number of people in limited situations lol. I see you’re changing the meaning of a word that we’ve used in a known sense for ages. Funny that.

Obligatory not r84...

but, isn't the notion of "changing the meaning of a word that we've used in a known sense for ages" the basis of this entire debate regarding pronouns, "gender," and let's face it "male" and "female" in the first place?

[quote]So when you said “everyone” you meant a very small number of people in limited situations lol. I see you’re changing the meaning of a word that we’ve used in a known sense for ages. Funny that.

No. I meant everyone as in not just people who are trans. I don't know how to explain it any better than that and quite frankly I no longer give a shit whether you understood me or not.

Declared pronouns and territorial acknowledgement will seem virtually quaint a decade from now.

If they have “she-sheds”, do they have “they-sheds”?