I don't think the other members of the What's My Line panel liked Dorothy Kilgallen, Part 2

Previous thread.

[quote]Her writing style is really boring. I wonder if other gossip columnists got kind of shrill and judgey just to give their pieces some flavor. (“Frances Farmer is on a liquor slicked highway to hell!”)

She was no Barbara Bennett of Redbook magazine,

Here's the episode where John and Bennett go into high dudgeon after Henry Morgan cracks Bennett's face during the intro.

Anyone else find John a pedantic bore?

Pedantic at times, I suppose. But he held that show together and was one of the main reasons for its "New York sophisticates" tone. I would hate to think what the tone would have been with a host such as Gene Rayburn.

Eve Arden.

My mom HATED Sam Levenson.

So did mine, R7! He seemed like a pleasant enough person who was probably well liked in the business, but he came off like a humor-challenged humorist who needed to keep talking even when he had nothing of interest to say.

Has anyone read Lee Israel's biography of Dorothy?

Jane Wyman

Shelley Winters

Shelley does a Judy Garland imitation and crashes into the set when she exits.

Shelley was on the show 5 times. Here is her 2nd appearance.

Oh no she crashed into the set again.

She was terribly nearsighted…squinting very hard at the panel without her glasses.

With and then without her glasses on Oscar night…blind as a bat

Shelley with Tony F.

I've been trying to find a copy, R9. There's a used one on Amazon for $48, but I'm not paying that much. It's hard to find reading material about Dorothy that's not JFK conspiracy centered.

You can read it on the Internet Archive.

link

Thanks, R19 & R20.

Sam Levenson was a bore. He was a former teacher who always gave me creepy vibes. One of those mid-century "humorisrs"whose work crumbled into dust as time passed. See also Alexander King and Jack Douglas.

I think for my mom to hate him he would have had to have been more than just a bore. I think she found him creepy, as well, in some way.

[quote]Sam Levenson was a bore. He was a former teacher who always gave me creepy vibes. One of those mid-century "humorists" whose work crumbled into dust as time passed. See also Alexander King and Jack Douglas.

It didn't take that long. His work crumbled into dust even as he delivered it. He wasn't just boring, he was aggressively boring. It was as though his life's goal was to bore as many people as possible.

I went down a Robert Q. Lewis rabbit hole and found his gameshow The Name's The Same. It only lasted 4 seasons and I can see why.

Shelley Winters #4

This time she practically runs past the panel when she leaves.

Bennett Cerf's unapologetic New York honk always makes for a nice counterpoint to the sparkling elegance on display. Keep the show's feet on the ground, as it were.

I'm so happy this thread has a Part 2!!

Did Brando ever do the show?

From the syndicated show, but I did very much like the mystery guest appearance of DL favorite Patty Duke (Astin), starting at 9:23. Arlene loved Patty's disguised voice. And the interchange between Patty & (the still-living!) Gene Shalit is quite funny.

Both Patty and Larry Blyden wipe their mouths after she kisses him hello.

Dorothy...Movie Star

John was not pedantic. He fulfilled the quasi-objective role of moderator with an urbane, clever and solid strength.

People here are ridiculously misreading because they lack an understanding of the times and manners of the show and the larger New York culture that no longer exists.

Shelley Winters #5

According to Wikipedia, Brando appeared only on the short-lived radio show. Other big stars who only did the radio version were Marlene Dietrich and Constance Bennett.

[quote]I went down a Robert Q. Lewis rabbit hole and found his gameshow The Name's The Same. It only lasted 4 seasons and I can see why.

I've seen a couple of episodes. I'm surprised that it lasted more than one season. A lame gimmick and dreary to watch.

Jean Simmons

Does anyone remember a 1950s quiz show called Masquerade Party?

Not sure if it was produced by Goodson/Todman but the gimmick IIRC was contestants would appear heavily made up (often with an early version of prosthetic makeup) and wigged and costumed and the panel would have to guess their identity. I guess all the contestants were celebrities.

But I remember my childhood fascination as the makeup was peeled off for the reveal at the end. It was eerie and a bit disturbing!

Yes, I remember Masquerade Party. The episode I remember had Mr. Brady (Robert Reed) disguised as a Robinson Crusoe-type figure on a desert island; the clue hinged on the "bunch" of bananas he was holding. I think Jim Backus was somehow involved. I could have this mixed up, though; it must have been 50 years ago.

Hmmmm, that's interesting, r40. If it was the 70s it must have been a reboot of the series I'm remembering from the 50s, which I wasn't aware of.

Oh, wait, you said 1950s, R39—that would be 20 years before the Masquerade Party I saw. Maybe it was revived; your description sounds familiar.

Yes, a discussion about people on a game show from 60 years ago really needs two threads.

Why are you reading these threads if you're not interested, r43?

I'm not reading them, R44. I saw this ridiculous thread title and commented.

Please avert your glance & move on, R45.

I have, R46. Now you move on and stop commenting on my comment.

By the way, everyone in question from this show has been dead for decades.

Yet you keep returning, R45/47!!!

Because I see a response to my response. Why shouldn't I? I'm certainly not returning to read any of the previous comments.

Ignore the troll.

Ignoring isn't your strong suit, apparently, hunty.

The original Masquerade Party aired from 1952 to 1960. There was a short-lived revival in 1974, which is probably what you guys are remembering. It was produced by Stefan Hatos, who went on to partner with Monty Hall to create Let's Make a Deal. Interestingly, it bounced among NBC, CBS, and ABC during its run, changing networks almost every year it was on.

Only a few episodes exist of each version, but what little I've seen of it wasn't very enjoyable. The whole thing was a weak sauce version of the WML mystery guest, and as stated earlier, the guest peeling off their makeup really creeped me out.

Masquerade Party '56

Ogden Nash? He shoukd have dashed. How in the hell did he land in this pell mell?

Wow! Thank you for posting the 1956 Masquerade Party episode, r54. Exactly as I remember it (as a wee gayling) except so very boring and ponderously unfunny now.

Nice, however, to be reminded of the delightful panelist Ilka Chase who's yet another one of those celebs who were ubiquitous on 1950s TV but long forgotten now. Though a stage and occasional film character actress, even by the 50s she was mostly famous for being famous (not unlike Arlene Francis). DLers might just remember her as Bette Davis' sister-in-law in Now Voyager. And I believe she also created the role of Sylvia Fowler in the original Broadway production of The Women so she's certainly DL royalty by that yardstick.

Ilka Chase was no Elsa Klensch.

Ilka and Elsa were no Elke.

The Kraut? Oy vey —

R25 years ago The Name's The Same was on the Game Show Channel......and it was obvious the panel had been given at least a few of the questions they were to ask......

[quote]Yes, a discussion about people on a game show from 60 years ago really needs two threads.

Apparently it does, because this one is already up to 60 posts.

R61, that isn't an example of "need."

You sound like an example of "need," R62. As in needing attention.

R63 confuses debate with needing attention.

Too needy—both of you

Miss R65 is above it all!

That’s Master, to you.

No, I had it right, MISS R65/R67.

[quote]Nice, however, to be reminded of the delightful panelist Ilka Chase who's yet another one of those celebs who were ubiquitous on 1950s TV but long forgotten now.

Ilka Chase played the Stepmother in the original 1957 broadcast of Rodgers and Hammerstein's "Cinderella." Here she is with Julie Andrews and, as Cinderella's stepsisters, Kaye Ballard and Alice Ghostley.

The WML panelists were urbane, that is, they were urban and sophisticated but not at all bohemian. Such people have largely disappeared from popular culture, though I’m sure they exist somewhere in New York and a few other cities. Today, in popular culture, “urban” (referring to white urban) is assumed to mean bohemian, alt-lifestyle or whatever, and sophistication is no longer a valued trait. The word itself is scarcely used, and if it were I suspect it would not be used in an entirely positive way.

It's a depressing loss.

R34, John could be pedantic in his convoluted clarifications of answers. I think he did it deliberately, partly to make the game harder for the panel but mostly for fun, since both panelists and audience laughed at the non-clarifying clarifications, and the panelists would mock him for pedantry. As you say, when speaking normally, Daly is not pedantic but simply well-spoken with a mid-Atlantic accent.

That’s not Mid-Atlantic

I think Hal Block got a raw deal. Some of his skirt chasing jokes were eye-rolling, but right after he left Steve Allen did the same types of jokes, in fact, so did Cerf and Daly had a few of his own. I love the show, but this idea that it was some kind of class affair, I think, is more legend than reality. They wore tuxes and gowns and were polite, but a lot of it was wink wink, nudge nudge.

Bennett Cerf was quite a handsome man when he was younger. In fact, he was still attractive in an avuncular way during WML, at least in the earlier years.

I'm curious about Bennett's marriage to Sylvia Sidney. Why did it last only six months? Were there ever rumors about his sexuality or being a philanderer? His subsequent marriage to Patricia Fraser, Ginger Rogers' first cousin, who was 18 years younger than he and only 24 when they married in 1940, lasted for the rest of his life.

As long as you're bringing obscure '50s game shows like Masquerade Party ... how about Mike Stokey's "Stump the Stars"?

This one has DL faves Beverly Garland and Tab Hunter!

Bennett admitted in an interview that he and Sylvia Sidney divorced because he couldn't bear the attention she'd receive due to her star status when they went out on the town. Of course, this was in the 1930s, years before he became nationally recognized by the public because of WML. She was at the height of Hollywood stardom then and quite the beauty. She went on to marry actor Luther Adler.

I think it's clear from watching him on WML that he craved being the center of attention and also that he thought he was the smartest, most sensible person in the room. I'm sure his second wife (wasn't her name Phyllis, not Patricia?) treated him as the lord and master, the Count of Mt. KIsco, indeed.

R73, I don’t think wink, wink, nudge, nudge and “class” are mutually exclusive by any means, but Cerf, Allen and Daly were just doing what all men were expected to do at the time. It was a given that, if you were a red-blooded, normal, healthy male, you noticed and commented (politely, if you were a gentleman) on pretty girls and expected the "girls" to take it as a compliment.

I think Bennett is actually kind of cute when he talks about Marilyn Monroe, which is often. He's like a schoolboy with a crush. It's too bad she was never on the show.

R75 Beverly Garland, of the Valley’s top-rated Holiday Inn? That one ;)

[quote](wasn't her name Phyllis, not Patricia?)

Yes, thank you for the correction, R76.

No doubt you're right about Cerf's personality. I'm sure he had a well-developed sense of [italic]amour-propre[/italic]. He was probably the nicest man in the world as long as you agreed with him and never pointed out any mistakes he made, but peevish and argumentative if you didn't. You can see a little of that on the show sometimes. It probably irritated a lot people, but I've worked in academia so long, I'm used to the personality type. If it bothered me much, I wouldn't have been able to stay in the field.

I think "urbane" went out of style at the end of the 1960s when Americans no longer wanted to behave like adults and, instead, started craving everything their children had and did.

Urbane was never “in”

What I loved about Stump the Stars is it showed how funny Beverly Garland really was, a trait she was never allowed to reveal on Decoy.

All those regulars: Ross Martin, Hans Conreid, Sebastian Cabot, as well as Bev, LOVED them all.

Broadway Open House

Wasn't Dagmar actually in an earlier version of Stump the Stars called Pantomime.....something....maybe Party? Essentially Charades, of course.

We're really talking pre-historic times now.

It was the precursor to Deal or No Deal.

Backstage, they called Dagmar “Duchess.”

Oops...

r84 I think it was Pantomime Quiz. It did evolve into "Stump the Stars."

Imogene Coca

The differences between parts one and two of this thread reminds me of the differences between the original What's My Line and the later, syndicated daytime version.

Anthony Quinn

And the later version of Masquerade Party?

[quote]The differences between parts one and two of this thread reminds me of the differences between the original What's My Line and the later, syndicated daytime version.

Why? Part two isn't in color and doesn't feature Soupy Sales.

Soupy Sales, in color

Audie Murphy.

Betty Hutton

John Daly acts like a silly sissy.

Beverly Garland couldn't be funny no matter how hard she tried. Hack.

Holy Moly! Shots fired against Beverly Garland!

Was Beverly related to Judy?

Bev wasn't a Gumm.

R97 how did Beverly appear in the chat? She wasn't on WML as far as I can tell.

r101 see r75

I always thought the LA setting of Stump the Stars gave a distinctly different vibe than WML and the other Goodson/Todman game shows. I just felt I could see the lights of Sunset Boulevard and hear the waves crashing at Malibu outside the windows of the faux-living room set during the charades.

[quote]John Daly acts like a silly sissy.

Who wouldn't seem like a sissy having to share screen time with super-macho Bennett Cerf?

Well Bev had time to reveal how funny she was on My Three Sons. What's she waiting for?

I hear she's hilarious in the afterlife, R105.

Beverly Campbell was not related to Judy Garland.

She said that a friend told her she was auditioning to be Fred MacMurray's wife on My Three Sons and Bev called her agent and said - "I can do that job better than she can - get me an interview....."

She was a bitch.

[quote]Beverly Campbell was not related to Judy Garland.

We both like soup.

[quote]She was a bitch.

As I recall, Beverly Garland did have a sense of humor about herself, anyway. She once attributed her career to having a set of "leather lungs" that allowed her to scream her way through all the schlock B movies and Roger Corman horror quickies she starred in.

Stump the Stars looks like it was filmed in a hotel lobby.

Betty Grable

…did not age well

A Beverly Garland classic...

I've always liked Bennett Cerf's Mt. Kisco house. Would love to live there.

Betty Grable was very gracious!

And Dorothy looked pretty good there. She'd be dead in a few months.

R107 You don't understand actors.

Lauren Bacall

R3 man, Henry Morgan is a boor. It’s like someone from SNL had wandered onto set.

R114 George Washington probably would have liked it, too.

I know Henry Morgan's godson, who said Henry was quite the cocksman, despite that I thought he was closeted. Never married though.

Cerf's memoir AT RANDOM is a fun read. It was cobbled together from his journals after he died suddenly at 72. He was quite the businessman and as I wrote in the previous thread, he had a great influence on 20th century classic literature. And he was quite the busy bee as a lecturer, hopping all over the country, as chronicled by whoever is introducing him.

The more WML I watch, the more of a crush I have on Bennett Cerf. He has a virile yet erudite and sophisticated way about him that's (a) very sexy to me and (b) almost non-existent today. He also seems very protective and paternal, which appeals to the daddy-issues side of me.

Bennett is kind of a sexy daddy type but I'm sure he'd be horrified to hear it.

I imagine Bennett in his spacious and well-appointed study at Mt. KIsco, smoking an aromatic pipe in his cardigan and slippers. Phyllis is rushing around, concocting his whiskey sours,.

Bennett Cerf was a very handsome man. In his youth he looked like he could be a member of the Biden family (though probably without the legendary endowment). There were rumors about him, of course. Either way, I think he would be pleased as punch to be found attractive by either sex, as it would feed his ego.

When he got hard, did he yell, "Phyllis! Cerf's up!"?

I'm sure Phyllis loved to ride the Cerf!

Cerf and TERF was his signature move.

What rumors were there about him?

Datalounge declared him a gay man in a previous thread, R129. What more do you need???

Those glasses did Bennett no favors.

Ed Sullivan. The mask he puts on is very disturbing.

Taken from the rival thread. The handsome San Fransico cable car operator.

The rival thread?! Anything like east/west rap wars?

THis one.

The handsome cable car conductor couldn't quite keep his lovely tongue in his mouth. That was a fun segment and Arlene was relentless!

Colonel Sanders, Alan King

I guess the Colonel's KFC image had not overwhelmed the American consciousness in 1963 yet.

Col. Sanders on IGaS in 1964.

Wonder if Mr. Cablecar got any acting gigs from this appearance.

Maybe KFC was too lowbrow for sophisticated Manhattanites.

Yul Brynner

Was KFC even available in Manhattan, then, R141?

No Rose—just the Shake & Bake at Sloan’s.

How many slaves did Col. Sanders have on his plantation?

The first KFC opened in New York in 1969.

Ricky Nelson

Poor Rick—he always seemed a bit too aware of the light shone on him.

Whatever that means.

Are you referring to the flames in the plane crash, R148?

Bennett in color

With Wally Bruner as host.

^ I’d like to see the syndicated episode in which Wally met his future wife, then a contestant.

Fabian

Fabian got more female screaming fans at his entrance than Ricky Nelson.

"Are you appearing in Canada presently?"

Someone asked earlier (or on the earlier thread) if airline transportation was provided for the guests and I think they got a "no" but the end of the clip has an announcement for the airline that provides the transportation. So the airline did it for free, or did the show pay?

Fabian was as inarticulate as Ricky Nelson. Two pretty faces though.....

I knew I was gay when I was in a record store and kept returning to a photo of Fabian in a bathing suit on an album cover.

Fabian and Ricky were not hired for their brains.

Johnny Mathis

[quote]I knew I was gay when I was in a record store and kept returning to a photo of Fabian in a bathing suit on an album cover.

This is the one that did it for me, r159...

IIRC Fabian wasn't even hired for his singing talents.

Arlen was all "How appropriate! Forte! Fortissimo!" and Fabian was like, "God, me me out of here."

*Arlene

Turn Me Loose.......was originally titled Make Me Loose. And Venus was titled Penis.

Eartha Kitt

[quote]Turn Me Loose.......was originally titled Make Me Loose. And Venus was titled Penis.

The sort of wit we could expect if What's My Line? were on the air in 2024.

Sammy Davis Jr

I don't know why Eartha and John were so thrown when Dorothy referenced the Santa Baby song.

Maybe it was the innuendo of Dorothy talking about a "special relationship with Santa," R170, but I didn't understand it, either . "Santa Baby" was such a hit for Eartha, it was added to the "New Faces" movie, even though it wasn't from the Broadway show.

Lana Turner

Lana was fun! And Arlene's mention of her leaving Anatomy of a Murder was interesting. I wouldn't have thought it was that publicized at the time.

Anne Bancroft

This confirms that I wish I had known Bancroft. She seems to be a good soul, with a wonderful sense of humor (perfect for Mel Brooks.). And her performance in Miracle Worker is for me one of the all-time greats.

May we have a conference John?

Said in conference: John, maybe go easy on the comb-over.

Did John Charles Daly see Anne Bancroft all three times he went to *The Miracle Worker*, or was he lucky enough to catch DL fave Suzanne Pleshette?

Suzanne Pleshette's understudy, Mary Frann, was on when John Charles Daly saw the show a third time.

John must have seen Patricia Neal in the play, too - she played Helen's mother.

Are you currently in a show playing on Broadway?

Are you current in a motion picture playing on Broadway?

Is your product something that can be folded?

Is it solid rather than liquid?

I can just see and hear Dorothy asking this with one her best quince-like expressions.

Could your product or service be enjoyed by both men and women?

"When people come to you for this service, do you touch them in any way?"

"Was that a yes?"

Would your product look out of place at a re-grieving ceremony?

At what point would the WML theater be air-conditioned? There are times when some of the panelists are fanning themselves.

The lights were hot, r189.

Have you never been on a game show? It gets very hot, especially if you’re wearing a coat and tie.

"Do you perform this service both indoors and outdoors?"

Sorry if this has already been posted.

...Bennet and Phyllis

Let's begin the general questioning with Mr. Martin Gable

Eerie to see that Person to Person interview at r193 with Dorothy and Dick, introducing22 month old son Kerry from Dorothy's recent misalliance as Dick's son.

Eerie and awkward. And their home is hideous.

Dorothy comes across as sweet in the interview. If a bit odd.

I never pictured someone like Dorothy Kilgallen living in a 22 room house in New York. I don't know what I pictured...maybe a 7-10 room apartment.

It's always been hard for me to imagine those upper eastside townhouses having as much spaciousness as they apparently do. They don't look quite that grand and wide from the street. And I guess the depth doesn't come through from outside.

I just didn't think she was that rich.

And I'm not a city-dweller but isn't a townhouse usually a tall and skinny building, not a "house" like Kilgallen's 22-room number? I've been in several townhouses and they didn't have that many rooms.

I would say Dorothy and Dick's house was a mansion.

Nudies!

There are photos of her townhouse online. Just google. It really doesn't look as big from the outside.

No but for a single home it's impressive.

Kat sold for 17 million.

*Last sold for...

It’s a 25 foot wide townhouse - which is bigger than most and allows for the living room, dining room and library to all be around 23 x 20 - combined with 12 to 14 foot ceilings and lots of architectural details those are pretty grand spaces. This house also has a square staircase rather than the usual straight run - so those rooms all opened onto a very spacious center hall with pocket doors - making them seem even larger.

“45 East 68th Street was constructed in 1911-12 by Gilbert for Emily Brewster Frelinghuysen. The Frelinghuysen family were prominent and successful in business and politics, with an illustrious past extending to pre-Revolutionary War America. In 1953, the house was purchased by actors and journalists Richard Kollmar and Dorothy Kilgallen. They broadcast their popular 1950s breakfast show on the radio from the fourth floor studio of the house. Kilgallen was most famous as the star of the iconic American television series "What's My Line?" This is truly an extraordinary opportunity to create a grandly proportioned home in a prime Upper East Side location. 45 East 68th Street is an exceptional townhouse offering - one not to be missed.”

I think it was kind of funny that she said when they woke up to do the radio show and it was only something like an hour before, so they really were doing a "breakfast show" - probably eating their breakfast at the time.

Proposed floor plan the last time it sold - it had been cut up into multiple apartments after Kollmar sold it.

Michael Caine

Who is Sue Oakland?

Richard Widmark

Why was the Sue Oakland thread closed after 10 replies?

^ It was moved to Las Vegas.

Sue Oakland was the west coast version of Sue Newark.

Neither held a candle to Sue Bemidji.

Honest question, sorry. Why are threads that don't seem problematic closed after only a few replies, sometimes? Right answers only, please.

Example, r219?

R220 The one we were just discussing from R213 on.

....

I don't know, either, R221, but I've noticed it on many older threads and wonder if there is a mysterious rule related to number of replies and age of thread, where low-reply threads more than X years old are closed automatically. Anyway ...

R198, I don’t know why or from where Dorothy gets a reputation for being cruel or nasty or, for that matter, snobbish. She’s always polite and pleasant, friendly even, with the contestants. She could be sharp-tongued and bitchy in her column, but isn’t that the point of gossip columns? Who’d want to read a toothless, sweetness-and-light column about celebrities?

In person, at least on WML and in the Murrow interview, Dorothy comes off as more of an insecure striver, perpetually worried about losing her place, than unkind or snobbish. She can be fretful and persistent when she argues with John, but so can Bennett, and everybody likes him. I do agree that Dorothy doesn't seem comfortable in her own skin, which sets her up for an unfavorable contrast with funny, relaxed Arlene, who always seems so at ease and unworried about anything. That doesn't make Dot a mean person, though, just a rather sad one. I feel sorry for her. And, by the way, whenever there's a guest who is rotund, foreign or otherwise unusual in appearance, it's Arlene, not Dorothy, who's more likely to make a "funny", but mean comment.

Anyway, I have not seen all the episodes – it’s a daunting task! – nor am I old enough to have read Dottie’s column when it was “live” and have only seen a few examples since, all of which seemed completely normal for what they were. What am I missing? Why do so many DLers dislike her?

I wonder why they didn’t replace Fred Allen with a regular panelist in 1956. Robert Q Lewis was an obvious choice. He was funny and an excellent player. So was frequent guest panelist Paul Winchell, who had the additional asset of being gorgeous. The dummy (“Jerry Mahoney”) was annoying, but at least his interactions with Arlene were amusing. Either man would have been a good replacement – actually much better than Fred ever was – so why weren’t they offered the job permanently?

Or, maybe they were offered the job and turned it down. Every Sunday, 52 weeks a year, is a big commitment. Winchell, especially, had a very busy career outside of WML. He was an accomplished and complicated man. I was surprised at the extent of his entry on Wikipedia.

R198 All I said is she comes across as sweet (if a bit odd). You're assuming I think that's unusual.

Arlene's interactions with the dummy were creepy in my book, especially when she accused him of pinching her under the desk.

As for Dorothy, she couldn't have been more condescending.

R225, I wasn't attacking you but rather expressing surprise at the reputation Dorothy Kilgallen has at the DL, which R226 exemplifies. To whom is she condescending, R226? Not the contestants, to whom she's unfailing nice and polite.

Of course, r221, duhhh. I believe all of the old threads were closed because one of the resident/transient trolls kept bumping them.

R228 Oh, okay - thanks for the answer. Appreciated.

Paul Winchell and his dummies were stupid and a complete zero for WML.

Nobody likes ventriloquists, r230. Frankly, I prefer Shari to sing and dance.

It's my pleasure to introduce to you this evening the lovely, talented star of stage, screen, and television: Miss Arlene Francis.

At one point Dorothy mntioned that nothing of significance happens west of the Mississippi. Bennett chided that she was "rather snobbish" in her remarks. She was always dripping with condescension.

Loved Arlene ! Bizarre incident her dumbbell fell eight floors killed passerby THE THRILL OF IT ALL!

Paul Winchell gorgeous??

Now I've heard everything.

It's not only on DL that Dorothy has a reputation for being mean and nasty. Though it was certainly more evident in her column than on WML, her reputation in the 50s and 60s was definitely that of a condescending bitch. Her column was filled with nasty innuendo all the time. That was her style.

Purportedly, she was once heard to remark about her rep vs Arlene: "Why can't I ever be the adorable one?"

I imagine Goodson and Todman thought there would be more fun in having a guest male panelist every week rather than filling Fred Allen's slot permanently. Just for variety's sake, I think they made the right choice. Personally, I wouldn't have wanted to see Robert Q Lewis or Martin Gabel and certainly not Paul Winchell week after week.

I think not replacing Dorothy with a permanent female panelist was a realization that NO ONE could replace her and, again, it was better to just have guest panelists in her place.

I can't speak to Fred Allen (before my time), but something was lost when Kilgallen died---her naked competitiveness and her obvious social distance from Bennett ad Arlene brought a certain tension that was helpful to the way the show worked.

What was her social distance? I just watched a compilation video where she and Arlene mimed kisses to each other (and big smiles after).

Watching that clip at r222 of a pregnant Dorothy when the contestant was a salesman of maternity clothes, one realizes that the mere allusion to pregnancy (and don't dare say that word!) just made Americans nervous and embarrassed. All that ridiculous tittering laughter was so childish. It's really hard to fathom now.

In the 1950s, at least, Dorothy more than once said that she wasn't very familiar with grocery shopping or watching much TV, which couldn't have exactly endeared her to much of the US population.

R239: You obviously haven't watched many episodes. She was a cold bitch.

Dorothy was a *girl on the go*, she had no time for the mundane.

Yes, the very idea of maternity, babies, diapers, maternity clothes was indeed a cause for self-conscious giggling. Wasn't that long before when I Love Lucy couldn't say Lucy was pregnant.

r244, that's why I was taken with the I've Got a Secrets where Betsy was pregnant and wearing gowns that had maternity tops. They weren't making an effort to hide it.

I don't wear one Bennett

The R214 clip of Richard Widmark has a rare shot of the studio audience!

Eva Marie Saint. Who knew she could be funny?

Are you related to anyone on this panel?

Did I have cocoa with you in an elevator in corfu in April of this year, while you performed dentistry on my husband?

There was a boxer that Dorothy had gotten shitty about and lied about in her column. He was the mystery guest. He called her on her bullshit after the round and she looked like she wanted to cry. I'll try to find the clip. Standby.

On the other end of the spectrum...

R252, what? No 1960 Cadillac? She should have walked off in a huff!

If she wanted the big prizes, r253, she shoulda gone on Price is Right.

Greer Garson as a drag queen

Greer earlier

[quote]Greer Garson as a drag queen

That was when she replaced Rosalind Russell in "Auntie Mame" on Broadway.

Peggy Lee

That’s “Miss” Peggy Lee to you, R258!

Arlene is the girl most DLers wish they were.

Dorothy is the girl most DLers are.

Thought bubble over the head of Queen for a Day: "I wanted a toaster!"

I remember Queen for a Day" vividly. But seeing it again reminds me how barbaric it was. What were they thinking? Rivals The Hunger Games for pure torture.

I remember Queen for a Day, my mom watched it. I didn't watch the clip, yet.

It was much more interesting, as visceral drama, than The Hunger Games.

I just watched that Queen for a Day clip. Dear sweet baby Jesus. Also how do you have 5 children all under 3?

Think hard, really hard^

Sammy Davis Jr was on WML 5 times. Here's another after R169.

The UK version.

Take your Brit shit somewhere else …this is Amerikan teevee

Early evidence that UK game shows just plain sick. WML is the gold standard of early tv, and yet the UK version is just wrong. Six ways to Sunday, just wrong. How’d they fuck it up?

Sick, and they suck!

Something you’d never hear on the real WML: Panelist to Mystery Guest (after they have determined he is a cricket player) “Are you colored!”

Jesus fucking Christ—on the BBC!

Eammon Andrews who was the host of the British WML and occasionally appeared on the US panel was rather dishy though.

Sorry, that would be Eamonn.

Another Sammy

Davis nearly died in an automobile accident on November 19, 1954, in San Bernardino, California, as he was making a return trip from Las Vegas to Los Angeles.

The accident occurred at a fork in U.S. Route 66 at Cajon Boulevard and Kendall Drive, when a driver, who missed turning at the fork, backed up her car in Davis's lane and he drove into her car. Davis consequently lost his left eye to the bullet-shaped horn button (a standard feature in 1954 and 1955 Cadillacs).

He wore an eye patch for at least six months following the accident. The singer was featured with the patch on the cover of his debut album and appeared on What's My Line? wearing the patch. Later, Davis was fitted for a glass eye, which he wore for the rest of his life.

Was he colored? Asking for the UK audience.

Or was he a Hebe?

Another Sammy

Do you own a dinner jacket that's lined with red?

Do you work for a nonprofit?

Arlene Dahl. See Arlene Francis' chunky necklace. See Dorothy get so embarrassed she stands up.

the show

[quote] Something you’d never hear on the real WML: Panelist to Mystery Guest (after they have determined he is a cricket player) “Are you colored!”

At least Muhammad Ali wasn't referred to as "colored."

Vincent Price.

That exchange between Arlene Dahl and Dorothy is one of the nastiest ever recorded on WML. Though Dorothy appears to be complimenting Arlene with her over the top fawning on her performance in Journey to the Center of Earth, Arlene will have none of it. Awkward!

I don't think it's nasty at all. I do think Dorothy is trying to overcompensate for getting the name wrong. And Arlene is surprised but quite accepting of the compliments.

You are too kind, r288.

Especially since Journey to the Center of the Earth was such a stupid, shit movie!

R290 = Count Saknussemm

[quote]Especially since Journey to the Center of the Earth was such a stupid, shit movie!

It's a very entertaining movie.

Suzy Parker

Suzy brought her purse.

I bet it was full of Revlon, r294.

[quote] Suzy brought her purse.

They must've had "coloreds" working backstage.

Suzy was married to Bradford Dillman.

But did Bradford Dillman ever appear on WML? I swear he would have had a bigger career had he changed his name (I mean even autocorrect is telling me now I'm misspelling it and I'm not).

R298 a short search does not have any information about BD on What's My Line = panel or mystery guest.

Anyone remember the episode when Arlene wore the hat her husband gave her as a gift? It's just about the most hideous thing I've seen a woman wear. You can tell she's kind of embarrassed and was just wearing it to please him. She made a point of letting everyone know Martin gave it to her.

Was it from 1955, R300? I’ve noticed that hats must have been very big that year, as female panelists were all sporting the most ridiculous looking hats.

Linda Darnell and her painted eyebrows.

R254, thanks. Holy shit! Those prizes! I want them all, especially the car, the house and the range. I don’t have much use for the brooch or the piano, but I could swathe myself in the sables, pin the brooch on my caftan, sit at the piano and pretend I was Liberace. The submarine goes in the pool, of course.

Regarding the prices, $1 in 1961 is worth $10.36 today, so inflate according. The car was cheap. (It was a V-6 Fairlane, not quite bottom-of-the-line Ford, but close.)

Maureen O'Hara

Rhonda Fleming in a hat

Ford didn't have a V-6. Buick or Olds had those. It was a novelty in the 60s.

You are correct that Ford had no V-6 for the 1961s but neither did Buick or Olds. They offered them in their 1962 compacts.

Meant to write: "Buick and Olds offered them in their 1962 compacts". (And yes Ford had none in the 1960s.)

However, in 1964, the correct ignition timing would be four degrees before top-dead-center.

I was surprised to hear in one of the upthread clips Dorothy referred to as a redhead. I always assumed she was a brunette, though of various shades as her hair does appear surprisingly light in some of the 1950s clips. It was clear even in black & white, Arlene ran the gamut of colors throughout her adult life though blonde always seemed too brassy for her IMO.

The name Bradford Dillman is difficult to spell?

Or remember?

Where's the "nasty" exchange between Dorothy and Arlene Dahl supposed to be? Why do people make me click on these things, then it's nothing like as described? Arlene Dahl was always kind of coolly snobby but there's no nasty exchange I can see.

I would be gushy too if confronted with someone as gorgeous as Arlene Dahl. She was so beautiful.

And then to have called her Rhonda Fleming by mistake!

I mean, Maureen O'Hara.

[quote]And then to have called her Rhonda Fleming by mistake!

They could have been sisters!

Arlene talks about Rhonda

Arlene “The Living” Dahl

I remember seeing Arlene Dahl getting out of a taxi on 5th ave. I guess it was the early 1980s. She would have been in her 50s. She was very glam and gorgeous.

She's got a secret.

Bert Parks introducing Arlene Dahl as "Irene Dahl"....and Convention Hall cringes.

22:50

She's no Adele Dazeem!

[quote]Bert Parks introducing Arlene Dahl as "Irene Dahl"

Better than "Roald Dahl".

I think I mentioned this the last time we had a WML discussion, but I can just picture Arlene walking into a 60s/70s gay bar like Lauren Bacall in "Applause" and all of the gays simultaneously gasping "ARLENE FRANCIS!"

Just to be sure you're aware: Arlene Dahl was the third Margo Channing in the Broadway "Applause," following Bacall and Anne Baxter. The show closed shortly after Dahl's takeover.

Which is oddly the second time Miss Anne Baxter has come up today, because I had previously been discussing her in her role as Olga, Queen of the Bessarovian Cossacks on Batman.

Any day where you can mention Miss Anne Baxter twice is a good day.

I disagree.

**kisses Dahl**

[quote]I remember seeing Arlene Dahl getting out of a taxi on 5th ave. I guess it was the early 1980s. She would have been in her 50s. She was very glam and gorgeous.

More like in her early 60s.

R330 You're not good at math.

[quote]Arlene ran the gamut of colors throughout her adult life though blonde always seemed too brassy for her IMO.

Well, she was of Armenian descent.

[quote]Just to be sure you're aware: Arlene Dahl was the third Margo Channing in the Broadway "Applause," following Bacall and Anne Baxter. The show closed shortly after Dahl's takeover.

I would rather have seen Arlene Francis in "Applause."

Must've written something negative about Frank Sinatra. He called her "The Chinless Wonder."

Arlene took over for Agnes Moorehead in Gigi.

Asa Buchanan is a gutter snipe!

Anyone see her in GiGi?

Miss Arlene Dahl should be lionized if for nothing else, for her role as the scheming wife in "Woman's World."

Clifton Webb and Lauren Bacall have her number from the start.......and that superstructure defies gravity.

She's good in that very enjoyable film. I'm surprised she didn't work more.

They both could sing, too.

She was too fucking busy and too busy fucking.

There used to be an interstitial on TCM where Arlene Dahl told a story about being at a party and (name dropping) standing there talking to Fred Astaire and some others about Walt Whitman, when Marilyn Monroe joined the conversation and Dahl claimed Marilyn said, "Whitman! I just love his chocolates!" (She imitated Marilyn saying this.)

100% sure that never happened, and...what a bitch!

I'm getting confused over Arlenes now.

Just hope Miss Golonka doesn't enter the conversation, r343.

R339 At that time, she worked a lot.

She more famous for her NYC/east coast Oscar viewing party hostess duties than for her acting. It was a simpler time for Oscar, then.

In the 1980s, Arlene Dahl wrote a syndicated column about astrology and also ran a premium astrology phone line.

What's with the Endora hair?

R346, It was Polly Bergen who hosted a NYC Oscar viewing party each year, with many celebrities attending.

R326, Yeah, three weeks later.

You know, it's one thing to have my thread hijacked. But to have it hijacked by a third-rate talent like Arlene Dahl -- a floozie in a fright wig -- is really more than I can bear. Even if this is Part 2.

Okay, Chinless.

Ann Sothern

John Daly hopes Ann will get an Oscar for Lady in a Cage. Has he seen the film??

Dorothy stands for Ann Sothern!

R306 et al., I should have said “six-cylinder” rather than V6. The announcer specifically says “it’s powered by a standard six-cylinder engine.” (See the video at R254, 8:05.) Six cylinders were standard on lower-priced American cars at the time, which was the point of my remark. You’re right that it would have been an inline six rather than a V6, so that was my error.

1950 episode with Betty Furness instead of Dorothy. The MG is Guy Lombardo.

The announcer calls it television's GAYEST game.

R358, Only when I was on the panel.

Are there any other celebrities whose head was shaped like a quince? Perhaps this question deserves its own thread.

[quote] The announcer calls it television's GAYEST game.

In the first couple of years of IGaS, Garry Moore refer to the show as a "snoopy kind of show."

Daly was always overpraising MGs and their work: "I don't recall a greater unanimity of raves from the critics for your new [movie, play TV show] . . . ." And Arlene would pipe up, "And you're just mahvelous in it."

After being revealed, most of the Mystery Guests barely got a word in, waiting for JCD to stop over-praising them.

Another reason to dislike the syndicated version is that - to make time for the endless demonstrations that John - to his credit - shunned on the network show - they (usually) gave short shrift to the mystery guests, often giving the panel scant minutes to guess the identity.

Rhonda Fleming's hat in R305 is like a crown of thorns.

Rhonda as Laurie Forbush...

She stinks.

Catch It and...

Gloria Swanson

R356 Errol Flynn?

Louis Untermeyer doesn't stand for Gloria!

Sad about the Louis Untermyer blacklisting but I don't think WML would have achieved the popularity and longevity it did had he remained on the panel. He was an annoying and awkward player.

I guess he was replaced by Hal Block? Ugh, what were they thinking? At least G/T realized they had to dispose of him fairly quickly and I'd bet Bennett was part of that dismissal.

That's Gloria FUCKING Swanson, R369.

Gloria gets a free suit. Did guests get gifts at the start of the series?

Artie Shaw

Glo didn't need it, r374, she had her own line...

premiere. 3 panelists and no Arlene.

are you familiar with our scoring system?

Artie Shaw sure looked like he could throw a mean fuck. I got the sex appeal. Too bad he didn't have a chance to char=t with John and the panelists at the end.

R375, Artie Shaw returned in the 1970s.

Dinah Shore was on with her husband George Montgomery. He was very handsome.

FUN FACT

George Montgomery was engaged to Hedy Lamarr prior to marrying Dinah.

George was close friends with Craig Stevens. And Dinah with Alexis.

You mean the Alexis Smith who was VERY close to Rita Mae Brown?

R380 - Artie Shaw turned into Herb Edelman.

I don't think the women panelists had any idea who Artie Shaw was, even seeing him.

He looked better with his clothes off.

Artie Shaw was world-famous. Who ARE you?!

Glad they changed the seating configuration.

The show improved by leaps and bounds when they quit the long introduction and free guess. Who would have thought something so simple would have made such an improvement?

I guessed right!

It's just occurring to me now, watching some of those very early WML episodes (into the early/mid-50s) that the show benefited enormously by being the first of those kind of panel quiz shows. Had those same episodes first been seen in the late 50s, I don't think the show would have achieved the same kind of popularity. They were smart to keep refining the details and panel compositions until they got the ingredients just right.

R389, Elliott Roosevelt would divorce that year (1950) from future IGaS regular panelist Faye Emerson.

Tab Hunter

Elliot R. was a pompous ass.

Tab is unsurprisingly adorable and shows far more personality and charm and wit than the other teen idols who appeared on WML (I'm looking at you Ricky Nelson and Fabian).

And he congrats John Daly about being on the show for 8 years so it's not all about Tab.

But I did hesitate when Tab was asked Do you appeal primarily to women?

Thank god they didn't ask if women appealed to him!

The audience didn't recognize Elliott Roosevelt? I've never seen a Mystery Guest met with such silence?

Dorothy had a lot of crust calling that lesbian from the Tab Hunter episode "sir." I bet Johnny Ray didn't take her to the gay clubs for a few weeks after that. No wonder nobody liked her!

Worse was Arlene calling her Mrs and not Miss.

Johnny Ray

He signs in Johnnie but his name on the desk reads Johnny.

R396, unfortunately, he appeared as a panelist a week later (February 10, 1957) and was awful. Tab said he was a longtime fan of the show. I guess he found out that what looks easy from your living room is not so easy on live television.

Since I'm in 1957 anyway, here's Robert Wagner's appearance that year. I've never been a big RJ fan, but he is really sexy and charming here.

Oops! Let's try that again.

^ Jeanie Carson is still with us at 98 years old. And Robert Wagner of course at 94.

So are Jeanie Carson and Pat Boone the last surviving celebrities who appeared as panelists on the show in the 1950s?

Well, I think Tab didn't do so badly as a first time panelist. I wonder if this (1957) was when he was with Tony Perkins, who also seemed to be a big fan of WML and appeared several times as a guest panelist and MG?

Robert Wagner was indeed so sexy and very funny. I think his other later appearance as a MG was posted in the first thread, He never really got to be as funny in films and TV as he was in these 2 appearances.

Jeannie Carson was a dreadful panelist.

[quote]So are Jeanie Carson and Pat Boone the last surviving celebrities who appeared as panelists on the show in the 1950s?

Dick Cavett was a guest panelist on the original series, but not until 1966.

A number of panelists from the 1960s are still alive.

"who appeared as panelists on the show in the 1950s"

Seems like in this thread or the last one I've seen Arlene Francis referred to as a gay icon or gay favorite.

I didn't know that. Is that common knowledge?

She's a DL icon, r413.

R414 Oh, okay. That I can believe.

[quote]He signs in Johnnie but his name on the desk reads Johnny.

Cut him some slack, R404, he was deaf!

r415 - Here's an earlier thread (that probably covers everyone in these threads)...

According to the Appendix at the end of Mark Goodson's WML book, guest panelists from the 1950s who are still alive would only include:

Jeannie Carson (1957)

Pat Boone (1958)

Joan Collins (1959)

And from the original 1960s show:

Dick Van Dyke (1960)

No one (1961)

Steve Lawrence until yesterday (1962)

Jane Fonda and Woody Allen (1963)

Paul Anka (1964)

William Shatner, Marlo Thomas, Anita Gillette, George Hamilton (1965)

Dick Cavett (1966)

Michele Lee, Joel Grey, Barbara Feldon (1967)

R418 Thanks!

Well thank God we know that.

Let me know if you'd like me to look at the other Appendix with the MGs listed year by year. Any guesses who of them are still alive? Only the original series though, no syndication!

A 1950s mystery guest still with us: Sofia Loren. Looking very exotic. The cheering and whistles at her entrance are probably among the biggest during the show's run.

This episode (1958) is very entertaining. With a 28 year old Dick Clark on the panel. He has a beautiful speaking voice.

Dorothy introduces him as the host of "American Broadcast".

Oooops

Gina.

[quote]A 1950s mystery guest still with us: Sofia Loren.

I don't know who this is, but Sophia Loren is still with us.

Jeff Chandler

Are you a bobbysoxers delight?

SO SEXY ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^!!!!!!!!!

r426 Did anyone ask him about polka dots?

Charles has a bone to pick with Dorothy.

[quote]She's an icon who deserves to have her name spelled correctly

Oooops sorry about that.

I'm fluent in Italian and naturally went for the Italian spelling.

The name is actually "Sofia" in Italian. Although she uses the "ph", it does not exist in the Italian language

She prephers the Latin spelling…

First Charles Laughton as MG.

Mr. Laughton appeared to be about 50 lbs heavier in his first appearance.

Is it the executive branch?

I wonder how they choose the last contestant (if there is enough time). They always get short shrift. I'd be pissed.

[quote] I wonder how they choose the last contestant (if there is enough time). They always get short shrift. I'd be pissed.

It was always someone local.

Arlene and Frank Gifford episode.

I don't think anyone could have watched that entire Sophia Loren episode or there'd be lots of comments here about the HOT Marine corporal, the second guest who unintentionally provided some of the best laughs ever (off of one answer that totally misled the panel), and the contestant after lovely Miss Loren, a sweet teenaged gayling with a summer job.

I remember reading once that Dorothy thought that she and Sophia Loren actually shared a resemblance.

Stubby Kaye was even more enamored of Frank Gifford than Arlene. That was a little weird for 1956, no?

^ The lifelong bachelor Stubby Kaye.

LOL Yeah I noticed that about Stubby. His man ham was getting moist.

Lots of innuendo about F's services.

Ergh they keep the camera on John when I wanted to see F say goodbye to the panel.

F...?

F Newton Gifford.

"Is it bigger than Steve Allen's breadbox?"

John seemed embarrassed for Stubby.

Does your great beauty have anything to do with what you do?

Bennett when he was young. Time is a bigger bitch than Dorothy.

Bennett and first wife Sylvia Sidney.

[quote]The lifelong bachelor Stubby Kaye.

And musical theater star.

You’re rocking’ the boat .

Was Stubby a shower or a grower?

With a name like Stubby i hope he was a grower!

R450, Bennett was very handsome as a young and early middle-aged man, but he didn't look bad for his age in later years, either. I just saw the 1957 episode where the panel wished him a happy birthday. They didn't say it on the air, but he was turning 59. For his age he was a nice-looking man, especially when he took his glasses off. (Those glasses might have been "intellectual" but they did nothing for his looks.)

Cerf and Sidney were married for six months.

John and Bennet looked pretty much the same all through the run of the show.

Arlene miraculously got younger looking.

So did Dorothy, up until November 8, 1965.

R438 Stubby's line of questioning is hilarious!

Charlton Heston

Stubby was married twice. But the first one didn't last long.

R461, It happens.

Margaret Sullavan

Arlene and Dorothy "miraculously" got younger looking.

The fact that we are wearing masks; that means you would be immediately recognized by one or all of us?

My memory of that Charlton Heston appearance was that he was rather stiff and humorless but watching it again now, he's actually very charming and sweet, if a bit dim (did he really think he was disguising his voice??). Bennett was so rude in his inferences about The 10 Commandments. Heston was very gracious, considering.

Frank Gifford is devastatingly sexy in that clip. Beyond hot. Women and surely some men must have literally been throwing themselves at him all the time.

I can remember when I first saw him nightly as ABC's local sportscaster on the evening news in the mid-60s when he'd just retired from playing football. He was still dreamy then,

I don't get the big deal about Frank Gifford, but maybe it's the same couple of people posting over and over (?)

Listen to the hand Charles Boyer gets here:

I'm curious how old you are, r468?

R469 Old enough to remember Frank when he looked like this (when I was a teen). You're right, he was good looking, but just not my type, I guess. He was so wooden, and he had those squinty eyes and lumpy nose. But that might be just me. I just don't have any kind of extreme reaction to his looks.

I couldn't play the Boyer video - does this work?

Yes.

Myrna Loy

R472 Merci.

R470, According to Susan Johnson, the stewardess he cheated on Kathie Lee with, Frank was hung large.

Agnes Moorehead

The episodes from the 60s show Arlene and Daly with big bags under their eyes.

Bennett always had dandruff on his shoulders and glasses.

Amazing, with so little hair.

Dorothy and Arlene being made up for the show.

Arnold Stang

Dandruff is a condition of the scalp, not hair.

[quote]Dorothy and Arlene being made up for the show.

"It's much better when they do it in the legitimate theatre."

Bennet had an unusually high, nasally voice, but it was appealing. He actually sounded something like Fred Allen.

(Whose voice was nasally but lower.)

I loved Bennett's Bronx-meets-Park Avenue accent.

[quote]I loved Bennett's Bronx-meets-Park Avenue accent.

I just enjoyed his introduction of Mr. John Charles Daly, their esteemed panel modiwader.

Every time my dad watched WML with me when I was a kid he would imitate Bennett's esteemed panel modiwayda.

In R480's picture Dorothy has red hair.

Geraldine Chaplin. Even she gets wolf whistles!

Is there any info out there about who designed the intro animation? Especial the later version which was quite clever.

R488, how old were you when you watched WML with your dad? A show that was on Sunday nights … at 10:30.

Could I use your product?

R489, Dorothy had red hair, at least for a while. In one of the episodes from 1956, I think, she walks out to wolf whistles (a novel experience for her, I'm sure) and one of the other panelists explained that it was because her hair was "flaming red" or something like that. I don't know how long she kept it that color, but Dorothy was at least a bit more constant with her hair color than Arlene, whose color changed with seasons, if not the week.

Ugh. She was a ginger. That explains most everything.

It wasn't her natural color, R495.

R486, me too. It was not a deep voice, but it was a masculine voice. Refined but virile, which is appealing in part because it so rare today.

Martin Gabel also had a great voice, although his pseudo-English accent is a bit much for a guy from Philly; it goes well beyond mid-Atlantic practically to the shores of the West End. I used to wonder what Arlene saw in Martin because he's physically unprepossessing at best, but having watched a number of shows where he's a guest panelist, I get it. He's intelligent, funny and charming. I'll bet he was good in bed, too.

With his pipes, Martin Gabel was kinda the Liev Schreiber of his day.

Arlene's accent was all over the place.

Arlene loved to mimic any accent of a foreign-born contestant with exaggerated diction.

Another mystery guest from a 1950s episode still with us: Abbe Lane.

So of the 1950s Mystery Guests we have Abbe, Sofia, Robert Wagner still around....who else?

Did WML acknowledge in any way the death of JFK? Or did CBS ban any such tributes?

Arnold Stang seemed to be very popular in 1955 though I think he is forgotten now.

Did we mention Richard Chamberlain? He's still around.

Margaret Sullavan looked very rough.

[quote]Did we mention Richard Chamberlain? He's still around.

...or *is* he?

Kisses stethoscope

r503, I remember Arnold Stang from his Chunky commercials.

There was no mention of the assassination, R502. I don’t know if that was by fiat, either by the network or Goodson-Todman. There was no mention, either, by TTTT or IGaS. The latter may have been the first one to mention the new president. In January 1964, they had a contestant who, decades earlier, had been a student of LBJ. The following week’s show began with a production assistant - who, as it happens, was a niece of Richard Rodgers - noting that president called after the show the previous week to invite the contestant to the White House. The production assistant accompanying the contestant to DC, showed a photo of LBJ with his former student & raved about the new president.

WML Kennedy moments.

[quote] I loved Bennett's Bronx-meets-Park Avenue accent.

Bennett would pronounce the word "valet" - the man who would greet you at the door of your home & take your hat - as "val-et."

R511, that's the proper pronunciation of the word for the manservant, as long as he put the stress on the first syllable. Val-LAY is the service for parking your car.

Isn’t that British pronunciation?

Most of the female celebrities seemed to get wolf whistles. I think I heard a wolf whistle or two for Myrna Loy in that clip above, and she was no spring chicken by then.

[quote]Isn’t that British pronunciation [of valet]?

The British do tend to anglicize words with French roots, such as stressing the first syllable of "garage."

Yet they use the French words for zucchini and eggplant.

[quote] Did WML acknowledge in any way the death of JFK? Or did CBS ban any such tributes?

R502 Well, Judy Garland sang The Battle Hymn Of The Republic on her show. Never said why, but everyone knew.

How Green Was My Valet?

Maggie Sullavan did indeed look a bit rough but so did "glamour girls" Ann Sheridan, Gene Tierney, Betty Grable, Ginger Rogers, Dorothy Lamour, Betty Hutton (no surprise, I guess) and even Hedy Lamarr. I think they were all in their late 40s/50s by the time time they appeared on the show and the primitive studio lights were not very kind.

Another big star MG from the 50s who's still with us is Kim Novak. She appeared on the show in 1956, publicizing Picnic, and was at the height of her beauty, absolutely incandescent.

r492, I'm 74 now, born in 1949, just months before WML debuted, I think.

It was always a special treat to get to stay up late on a Sunday night to watch it in the late 1950s but by the 60s I was watching it regularly as part of the Sunday night lineup starting with Ed Sullivan and then Bonanza (taking a year off for Judy's show). What I can't remember was what preceded WML at 10 pm? Maybe Candid Camera, at least for some of those years.

My god, are we actually going to go into part 3?!?

[quote] Maggie Sullavan did indeed look a bit rough but so did "glamour girls" Ann Sheridan, Gene Tierney, Betty Grable, Ginger Rogers, Dorothy Lamour, Betty Hutton (no surprise, I guess) and even Hedy Lamarr. I think they were all in their late 40s/50s by the time time they appeared on the show and the primitive studio lights were not very kind.

Aren't we looking at kinescopes of a live show? Nobody looks particularly good.

Why not, R521? The show was endlessly fascinating. And have we really done more than scratch the surface of the effervescent Arlene Francis?

Sullavan wasn't a great beauty but she had a lot of charisma and that great voice, guys were crazy about her.

Garland sang Battle Hymn against the wishes of CBS execs. They supposedly wanted no sadness or mourning to mar their evening line-ups. She sang it anyway, and the performance was historic. It was such a hit that she repeated it the following week, but to diminishing returns.

[quote]What I can't remember was what preceded WML at 10 pm? Maybe Candid Camera, at least for some of those years.

1950-52: Celebrity Time

1952-54: The Web (presumably not about the Internet!)

1954- 56: Father Knows Best/Appointment With Adventure

1956- 58: The $64,000 Challenge

1958- 59: The $64,000 Challenge/Richard Diamond/Keep Talking

1959-1960: Jack Benny/George Gobel/Lucy in Connecticut

1960- 1967: Candid Camera

I would question Father Knows Best being on as late as 10 pm. I remember it more in the 8 pm slot.

They were probably reruns used to fill the space after something got cancelled.

Or as a summer replacement.

Illustrator and former-mentor-of-Barbra Bob Schulenberg recently posted about visiting the Continental Baths to see Cab Calloway and Dawn Hampton and being seated between Arlene Francis and Helen Gurley Brown.

I remember reading that Arlene was afflicted with Alzheimer's in the '80s, but that didn't seem to jibe with later accounts.

Lucy in Connecticut was ILL reruns.

Arlene should have gotten a spin in her intros.

Actually, I don't think Alzheimer's really caught up with Arlene until the 1990s (though she was in her 80s by then if that's what you meant, r531). Apparently, she went to San Francisco at that point to live with her son until she died in 2001.

I follow illustrator Bob Schulenberg on Insta. Always loved his illustrations and doodles and his show poster art (Dames at Sea). He's still drawing and talking about Barbra.

R534, I just have a recollection of reading about Arlene’s health in the 1980s.

You may be right. But Arlene was certainly still working in TV in the mid-80s, at least.

These threads are too long for me to look back but was Julie Andrews mentioned as a mystery guest from the '50s still among the living?

Carroll Baker as well.

I remember seeing Arlene on Matchgame on YouTube. It was probably mid '70s. She seemed so out of it. Plus the show didn't seem to be the right fit for her.

R534, Wikipedia claims Arlene went into a nursing home (I hope a nice one, with her own room and personal things around her!) when she moved to SF:

[italic]When Francis was seven years old, her father decided that opportunities were greater in New York and moved the family to a flat in Washington Heights, Manhattan.[6] She remained a New York resident until she entered a San Francisco nursing home in 1993.[1][/italic]

However, when I checked the reference in the Wiki article, from Liz Smith's April 20, 1993 column, it just says Peter found his mother bedridden from a fall and took her back to SF with him. Maybe she lived with him for a while and then went in a nursing home. The link to reference is below; the item about Arlene is at the end of the column.

I always found young Peter Gabel hot. Not necessarily "handsome" but quite sexy, as most intelligent guys are.

[quote]Another big star MG from the 50s who's still with us is Kim Novak. She appeared on the show in 1956, publicizing Picnic

Was "Picnic" playing or about to open in one of the major theaters on Broadway?

June was on 3 times wearing her new off-the-forehead post-MGM hairstyle. She gets wolf whistles too.

You mean dog whistles!

Did they have to wipe the seat down after June left?

Isn't Mamie Van Doren still with us? She was a MG in the 50s.

Also Joanne Woodward who appeared with hubby Paul.

And Eva Marie Saint.

I don't believe Shirley MacLaine ever appeared on the show. I wonder why not?

R517, Other than the tribute on the first Sunday after her death, Dorothy’s name was never mentioned again on WML?.

Don't think Gwen Verdon ever made it to the show, despite starring in a number of shows during WML's run.

R548, So did Sylvia Sidney, but the producers would never dare to invite her.

Gwen Verdon and Mary Martin were the 2 biggest misses in the history of the show as they made their careers and lives in NY and had plenty to plug. Perhaps they just wanted their Sunday evenings off.

June # 2.

June # 3.

The most common Sunday night line up I remember is - 1/2 of Disney's Wonderful World of Color, The Ed Sullivan Show, Bonanza, Candid Camera, What's My Line?......the worst part about it is that the next day was MONDAY.....and back to school.

You be old.

I’m old, but not that old…

R547, I seem to recall Dorothy’s name being mentioned on the final episode of the network series.

Dorothy Killgallen reported in September 1953 that "the lads at Fire Island have just finished shooting their all-male movie version of Camille." Kilgallen's column, "The Voice of Broadway," was syndicated in 176 national and international newspapers from 1940 to 1960. She regularly titillated readers with "scoops" about Fire Island's notorious homosexual contingent, especially those residing in Cherry Grove. As a panelist on the TV game show "What's My Line?", Kilgallen may have learned of Camille from her co-panelist, the irrepressible radio and screen actress Arlene Francis (1907-2001). Francis was the "Mystery Guest" in the Cherry Grove Arts Project's Second Little Show (July, 1953), a parody of the 1950s game show. One drag celebrity panelist in the parody was tagged "Dorothy Killrotten."

She probably heard about it from her husband.

Or Johnnie Ray.

Johnny heard nuttin’

Art Carney

Ed Norton!

Camille is *mine*.

[quote]You be old. I’m old, but not that old…

What an odd thing to be proud of.

Who said anything about pride?

[quote]My god, are we actually going to go into part 3?!?

It's the year 2024 and people are endlessly fascinated with "What's My Line?"

That's a good sign. There's still hope for the world.

When it appeared, some posters scoffed at having a part 2.

R550, Gwen did appear on WML! (My apologies if someone else has posted this already; I’ve blocked several people on this thread).

Would this be of the four legged variety?

Why is Art Carney dressed like a bum?

Gwen brought her purse.

And her false eyelashes.

[quote] Why is Art Carney dressed like a bum?

He was dressed in character.

He's dressed as Ed Norton, R 568.

The Thunderbird leader was hot. And all those skinny ties!

Ed Norton was born in 1969.

Stupid Gen X, Millenial and Gen Z persons …

Thank you, R566 -I was starting to think I was losing my mind, remembering watching her on the show.

Well, I may be losing my mind -but not about Gwen Verdon...

Sondheim time?! No—please

It is ALWAYS Sondheim Time, bitch!!!!!!!!

I'm going to assume that you're joking, R574. Otherwise, I can't imagine what you'd find interesting about a "What's My Line?" thread.

I wonder if Art was a late fill-in and that's why he didn't have time to change clothes.

Or maybe, R580, The Honeymooners, also a CBS production, was filmed in the same building as WML & Art Carney came directly from the set. Or he was so identified with the role, that he was asked to appear in costume.

Pearl Bailey

R581, Greer Garson appeared in her Auntie Mame costume when she was the mystery guest, having succeeded Rosalind Russell in the role.

[quote]June # 2.

We know June had a problem with #1 -- I don't even want to think about her #2s.

[quote]Stupid Gen X, Millenial and Gen Z persons …

Pot, meet kettle.

Gypsy Rose Lee with marbles in her mouth.

Dear, what? Speak up.

I'm glad there was a time when a panel show could guess Carl Sandburg with just a few questions.

Steve (on the panel), with Eydie as the mystery guest, in 1963.

New thread, in case we've missed anything.

Gwen Verdon's voice was so distinctive and I don't think she tried very hard to disguise it. If any of them had heard her sing Whatever Lola Wants.....

She looked tired, poor thing.

I think some of the MGs want to be recognized, if only so they have more time to plug their projects.

Yes, I also think maybe Bennett and Arlene did recognize Gwen earlier but played another round for fun.

It might have been an ego thing, too, for some of the mystery guests, R592. Some publicity people’s jobs might have been on the line if their clients weren’t guessed.

[quote]Or maybe, R580, The Honeymooners, also a CBS production, was filmed in the same building as WML & Art Carney came directly from the set. Or he was so identified with the role, that he was asked to appear in costume.

"What's My Line?" and "The Jackie Gleason Show" ("The Honeymooners wasn't a filmed separate series at the time) were both broadcast live, Gleason's show on Saturday evenings and WML on Sunday evenings.

Sally Rand

The only time a whistle was made in Dorothy's direction was when she was mistaken for a cab driver.

Is it Miss or Mrs?

At least no one asked "and what are your pronouns?"

It's time to move on to the next thread once more, with feeling.