Do you consider graduating college a big deal?

Sure. Most people consider it an accomplishment. Why would I be a killjoy and curmudgeon and deny other people's experiences. It was a big deal for me, too.

Why do you ask?

Just curious, R2. I come from a working-class background and love the fact all of siblings and me are college graduates. Others seem to have the opinion it is expected.

No. Not these days, when college curricula suck shit. No math or Samuel Johnson needed to graduate.

Which reminds me, OP, you might benefit from reviewing this:

When I was younger, yes. I saw going to college as necessary and fundamental. Nowadays? I know so many people with multiple degrees who are making frappuccinos at Starbucks, as well as people with expensive degrees who seem borderline illiterate/incompetent. Clearly having a degree (especially a liberal arts degree) doesn’t mean what it used to, and isn’t the ticket to success and security it was in previous generations. While it can be more challenging, there are lots of self-starters and business owners who have carved out a path to prosperity, sans degree. I can understand that temptation considering you take on all that debt, for very little in return.

Well congrats to all of you. It likely means you all increased your lifetime earning power.

Ah, but R5, can these self-starters use "sans" in a sentence with such lovely aplomb?

Did you graduate, OP, or did college graduate? You graduated FROM college. You did not graduate college - i.e. hand “college” their degree.

I should have double checked my grammar before submitting my post. It is more being tired than ignorance. But thank you for the reminder.

I used to, but not anymore.

It was for me personally but that doesn't mean I think it's going to be the same for everyone. It comes down to your own life goals and aspirations.

Listen you blowhard ignoramus R8. There are many syntaxes for graduate (v) + college (n). In fact it is also highly elegant to conceive that the college graduates the student. So rather than "I graduated from Princeton" one could say "I was graduated from Princeton".

It is also accepted to say "I graduated HS" or "I graduated college" when the school is not named.

Don't apologize R9/=OP. You usage is acceptable and R8 is an ass.

Tee hee!

I still see it as a big deal, even if for only the reason that someone finished something that takes years and a lot of work. It's still a big personal achievement. But it's not necessarily a big deal for the reason that "college graduate = success." Though college still does help SOME people on their path to success."

R12 Students don't graduate schools. As you said yourself, the college graduates the student. “To graduate” is an intransitive verb and can't take an object without a preposition (here, "from").

I said the usage is acceptable in the instance the school is not named. It refers to the life event, not a particular relationship with a specific college. And you ARE being a pompous ass.

I admire anyone's ability to pay for it and stick to their program, especially if they are working through college. That takes commitment, and it's not cheap.

That being said, I don't believe it makes anyone necessarily smarter or better at their job.

Yes, of course, for reasons no longer appreciated or even identified.

Education - to build, to build a personhood, perspective. Art and science to establish mediational units that you can use to hold and understand you human experience.

Is it still critical for middle class employment? Not remotely like it used to be.

Is it still critical for living a life of meaning? Yes....

R16 It’s acceptable insofar as a great deal of people say it, so it’s become commonly accepted. It doesn’t mean it’s technically correct. Having an understanding of grammar doesn’t make one pompous. A good way to remember the proper phrase is that the school or college graduates you once you have fulfilled the academic requirements; you don't give yourself permission to graduate.

Absolutely, and you can usually tell who has one.

I agree with R10. It use to matter. Now that college is big business I'm less impressed with it. Certain fields are also dominated SJWs. Either you subsribe to a certain viewpoint or you have no place being there.

R18 And yet the quality of education has plummeted at many institutions, to the extent that you often can’t tell who has a degree and who does not. Many college graduates leave as ignorant as the day they started, while people who take a personal interest in literature, art, science etc can teach themselves almost anything. And I’m a college graduate.

I do for me, I don't know that I have ever considered anyone else. Out of all the kids in foster care group homes in my teens, I am the only one who graduated college. I am the only one who learned after having one kid to not have any more and get my shit together. All the girls have many children, many baby daddies and most are junkies, all on welfare. The guys all have sexual offender registry requirements. So, yes. I am exceedingly proud of myself.

TRUE STORY.......Years ago---probably 20 years ago---I took my exes College Degree out of it's frame and scanned it. I then used photoshop to remove his name and replace it with my name. I was quite a PS geek in the early days and surprised at how well it came out.. It's still hanging in my office.

R24 that's a sad story.

R18 I think this depends on the student. If they’re there to learn and expand their worldview and become well-rounded individuals, they will get something out of it. But lots of young people today see college as a social exercise, or a pathway to a particular career, and get almost nothing out of it. (See: my sister, who is now a flyover state deplorable despite having an expensive degree that our father nearly killed himself to pay for.)

R24 And did you use this fraudulent degree to gain employment, or is it just a souvenir that helps you feel better about yourself in front of other people? No judgment either way, I’m just curious.

My college taught us to proofread, which is more than I can say for you, OP.

R27 I'm self employed, never used it for work. I like it because it is REALLY well done. You cannot tell it is fake in any way. I remember holding the fake one and the real one side by side and you could not tell the difference when I was finished. Even the paper was so similar and I bought a fancy frame for it.

getting weirder and sadder.

I don't think it made a difference to the universe, but it was a big deal to me. In my high school class of 438 there were only 15 of us in the "college bound" program. Math and science classes kept getting collapsed due to under-enrollment, so I had to take night classes at local community colleges to meet my college entrance requirements. Only four of us were enrolled in four-year institutions following graduation. Four years later, I was the only one with a degree. I know a lot of my classmates subsequently went back to school, but I was the only who did the "traditional" thing, and I am proud of myself. It took a lot of hard work, and many years to pay off the loans. I went to a small, "name" liberal arts college which did actually open a few doors later (grad schools, employers, etc.).

I don't think a college education means as much today as it did in my prehistoric time. More and more people have them, so they mean less and less in the marketplace. Entrance requirements have lowered to the point that just about anyone with a high school diploma can get in somewhere. Not every school has dumbed down their curriculum, but enough have that it devalues the degrees once it is finally attained. Kids today are as smart as they ever were, but few seem to have a zest for learning beyond their career goals.

Now -Get off my lawn!!!

R5, many college graduates chose majors with no employment potential, but that doesn’t change the fact that any respectable white-collar position requires a degree. If you want to attain or maintain middle-class status, you need either to be a brilliant entrepreneur – which few people are – or to get a degree that leads to a professional or managerial job

A university degree – often an advanced degree – is still the choice of the overwhelming majority of smart people who want to advance in the world or stay in the middle class.

To me individually, it was a big deal because it was an expected stepping stone on the way to adult life. Given the effort and expense required to get a four-year degree, I think it is a big deal for anyone. In terms of the impact of a degree on a person's life, see above.

I am a college snob. Your degree matters but only if it’s from a good school. If it’s from Illinois State University, you might as well have skipped it altogether as far as I’m concerned.

I was too depressed to consider this an achievement although I am one of the first in my backwards family to matriculate

Of course.

College is hard work. Many people start college and never end up finishing. Graduating with a degree is an accomplishment.

Doesn't guarantee a great career by itself, but it is still an accomplishment

I think it's important, because I didn't finish and get a degree and I should have. Having said that, many local service business need skilled people but no one wants those jobs, they train and start paying well immediately, ever hire a plumber or electrician? Or have your fridge worked on? But it's working with your hands, like a peasant.

Yes. I am proud of myself for doing it, although it took me longer than some others. My parents had four kids and never expected any of us would want to go to college since they didn't. In fact, they thought anyone who went to college thought they were better than those who didn't so it was never even encouraged, let alone saved for. My sister was the first person in our family to graduate from college. I moved out at 18, worked two jobs and went to community college for five years taking some basics and also just trying to figure out what I wanted to study. I would take one or two classes per semester so I could work and provide for myself. I rented a tiny room from a woman who rented to students. Finally, I realized what I wanted to do and applied at UCLA where I was accepted and where my sister had gone. I was told that I would never graduate in 2 years as I had some basic classes I needed to make up but I went in as a junior and graduated in 2 years, all while working and with zero financial help from my parents. I took out student loans.

It took me 18 years to pay them back, but graduating from UCLA was one of the proudest moments of my life. Sadly, both of my younger brothers dropped out of high school during their freshmen years...but both of them make more money than I do.

Still, I'm proud that I accomplished. I'm 54 now and work in the field I studied. My life would have turned out vastly different if I hadn't taken out those loans and had some parental support. But if I hadn't gone, I would have ended up stuck in my small town and likely would not have discovered I was a lesbian.

R35, agreed. And, for many jobs, it's a requirement, even if the requirement makes no sense.

Where I work, we have many people with job titles like "project manager" or "program coordinator". These are jobs any good secretary could do, but we require a college degree to filter out the riffraff. You will find this to be true in any large employer, I think.

I have a friend who write software for a major industrial corporation. He is acknowledged as the best coder on the team, but he makes significantly less than his teammates because he doesn't have a degree. At one point he enrolled in a program, but quit because he got sick of jumping through hoops that he knew had nothing whatsoever to do with his job. I'm all for qualifications, but skills should trump them when it comes to highly-technical jobs. If I need an interpreter, I want the most skilled speaker, not the person with a degree who maybe just squeaked by.

Getting my degree was an accomplishment and relief. I was glad to be done and I already had a job.

College was a tight 4 years for me. There was no money for an extra semester.

College was an amazing 4 years of my life. I came from a small town and college just really opened up my world view. I recommend it for everyone who wants to do it. Graduating was both sad and a big deal.

I totally loved my college experience. It cost a bundle but it was worth it. I received a humanities degree. It hasn’t exactly brought me a great success financially but I’m so glad I followed my interest. I look at those that went right into science or math chasing the big paychecks straight out of high school as having something missing in their education. Sure they may have a great paying job but they can’t speak of history or art or philosophy with any real foundation. My professors were mostly wonderful and dedicated. That feeling of leaving a great lecture with one’s head spinning with new insights and ideas remains a shiny gem in my life.

R42, I like you!

I think college changes you fundamentally as a person and causes a lot of personal growth. In in my area (lots of blue collar workers, but past 5yrs or so has seen an influx of industries grow that require college of some sort) I've met more people that regret not going then those that do. You need to make sure going in that you balance what you want to study with what will have decent job prospects. For instance, I don't recommend against any field of study so long as you know what you're getting into. For example, a music degree; if you have a realistic understanding of what you can do with it when you're done and have a plan to get there, go for it, it will serve you well. Sometimes you don't need college to make that plan, but college means something nowadays when everyone asks for a degree (even if you don't really need one). Same for any field. Make a plan and know what you're doing. Personally I don't regret college. I would be a very different person without it and I'm not sure how much I'd like that person. It changed me a lot for the better.

I’ll preface this by saying I don’t work in the field in which I got my degree in the 90s. I’m in the U.S. I don’t regret going to university because I graduated high school early and learned about life and took interesting courses outside my major. And back then tuition was lower and loan payments weren’t insane like they are now. I think if I were starting out now, I would only go if I were in my 20s, not at 16, so I’d have a better idea of what I wanted to do with my life and a degree was absolutely required (medicine; the law).

No, not anymore.

It all depends on your major. A degree in something really marketable, that you love doing and can't learn on the job, makes a lot of sense. But a lot of ppl get pricey degrees in a field that will hire you without a degree, like getting a starting job as a bank teller with a degree in business. Now you have the same low-level job you would have with a high-school diploma but you also now have a student loan to pay off. Better to get a shitty job as a pharmacy tech at a company like Rite Aid that is desperate for pharmacists, who will pay your way through pharmacy school if you will work for them afterwards. The degree is needed but you don't handicap yourself by paying for it when you don't need to. And you start at almost 100K a year. But if you're going to own a bookstore or a construction business, learn it on the job. Don't waste time and money on a degree.

Not anymore. Education used to mean an easier path to economic success and better quality of life. So parents wanted that for their kids. It was also something that was hard to do, so it garnered respect.

But now, we’ve turned colleges/universities into degree mills paid for by government loans. So anybody that wants to go can find a way in. The quality is seriously degrading just like we’ve seen in HS. Also, kids get huge loans for degrees that will never get them a job that pays enough to pay them back. It’s become a racket.

Not anymore. I work as a writing tutor for a masters degree program and it blows my mind how the majority of students cannot string together a coherent sentence.

I’ve noticed this too R49. It’s genuinely shocking. What are these kids doing in class? What are their professors teaching them?

[quote] I am a college snob. Your degree matters but only if it’s from a good school. If it’s from Illinois State University, you might as well have skipped it altogether as far as I’m concerned.

You sound like an overall snob, i.e., a snob in every aspect of life.

Yeah, I do consider it a big deal. Mostly for the discipline and endurance part.

I grew up near a military base and never had a high opinion of military guys. Now, though, I give them credit for having gone through training, moving to a new part of the US or overseas, and sticking with something for 4 years or whatever. Not to mention being in a war.

If you equate college to what it costs and some negative experience you've had with a college student, you really are missing the point of college. It's not always about the job you get after you graduate, it's about how it enriches your mind and your spirit in both the immediate ways and in the ways that you may not discover until years after it's over.

Thinking a degree is the end-all be-all is classic striving middle class. Half of the people I know worth large fortunes have never seen the inside of a college, and of the ones who have, I can only think of one with a graduate degree.

[quote] It's not always about the job you get after you graduate, it's about how it enriches your mind and your spirit in both the immediate ways and in the ways that you may not discover until years after it's over.

Not everybody has the luxury of this approach. Some people work full-time while carrying a full-time course load. Hell, yes, that type of person is going to college with an eye to earning more money.

In that situation, you are most likely not having that glorious campus experience.

But, yeah, you might have your mind blown by what you're learning.

It is worth it if youi have a mind that can learn. Most people don't and college only benefits them in a networking sense.

Yes, bigly. It shows perseverance and achievement.

This may be an over generalization, but I think the main point of attending a university has changed dramatically from one generation to another. No, not for all students, but for many.

When I was in high school, many of us had the notion that going to college was the chance to expand our minds, to experiment, to talk into the night about books or philosophy or love or art, to break free of the constraints of our parents and society.

My impression in later years has been that college is first and foremost a job training program. In my generation, huge numbers of kids majored in the humanities — though many ended up in jobs not obviously tied to the humanities. But (old as I am) I still think studying humanities is good training for life.

I find many young college graduates today, while intelligent enough, can’t talk about anything other than their own narrow interests.

Yes, but I didn't realize it when I graduated. My folks did not have money to help with tuition, so I worked my way through college. It took me six years since I had to work enough hours to pay for school. By the time I graduated, it had been such a long haul that I was just happy it was over. It wasn't until I graduated with my Masters Degree at 32 that I could look back and appreciate all of it. It felt nice to finally be proud of the accomplishment.

I’ll say it is. When I went to college, I was one of the only people I knew whose parents didn’t go themselves. It was like a new world I hadn’t seen. I grew up in blue collar neighborhood and maybe a third of us went to college. I’m in my mid 30s and grew up in a large city. It surely was career preparation but at the same time opened my eyes to things I didn’t see before, or were made fun of by the ignorant dicks at home.

It was eight years of night school at an overpriced Catholic university that I chose because it was close to the train as well as work.

The community and networking opportunities other graduates reminisce about sound foreign to me.

I did it wrong.

The grade inflation thing is weird. I went to a graduation a few years ago and like every student was magna or summa cum laude. It made the honor seem worthless.

When I went to college back in the day summa/magna where kind of rare achievements.

I went to college for an education, not a job. It was assumed that everyone would go on to grad school afterward, so we were encouraged to pursue our interests as undergrads. (Very few people have careers in the field of their bachelors.) If you were thinking of med school or law school you made sure to take required classes and tests, but you did major in those fields. One professor advised to major in something you loved and were really good at, as you'd likely end up with a higher GPA and therefore a better chance at getting into the grad school of your choice.

I had a similar experience, R49. In my masters program we had a class where we were supposed to help each other by reading chapter drafts from everyone's thesis and offer suggestions. It was shocking how poorly-written most were. It was painfully clear that a some people had very limited vocabularies -they would throw out big words they clearly didn't understand. Sentences ran on and on. And on. I would have expected better from a sixth or seventh grader. But they all got their degrees...

There was certainly a lot of big dick on campus.

For law school, it doesnt matter what you majored in for your bachelor’s. You can major in any thing. Yes, you can do criminal justice or political science, but there is no such thing as pre-law.

The year after I graduated from B.U. my school was declared nonviable and was folded into a group of other schools.

I did not receive a refund,

Back in my day, an Ivy League student could study whatever, then go to a city and get professional job. It certainly worked for me and even in Europe and the Middle East, too! I wonder if that set up is over. Caveat, you had to be clever and productive once given those job opportunities, of course. No business retains let alone promotes a fool. When a political VIP or billionaire business person buys their loser kid an Oxbridge or Ivy degree, he won't make it in independent corporations if he or she sucks. The only option for them is the family business.

Not really. Probably because everyone in my family did it.

What? Like it’s hard?

I don't consider it some great accomplishment, nor do I consider that people who did not attend or graduate from college deficient as I know people who did not yet are lovely and accomplished and very interesting and we'll informed.

Not having attended/graduated is of more significance to some who did not than to the great majority who did. It can been an obstacle in some careers and some situations in life, more, I think, than it is beneficial on the other hand - because in many circles and instances to have a degree is simply the norm.

Not particularly. I got my BBA in 1974 and my MBA in 1976. I saw those degrees as nothing more than a requirement to get where I wanted to get in the business world. They helped get me a job with a company I stayed with for 33 years until I retired. Never once since then has anyone ever said or even lead me to believe they were impressed that I had 2 degrees. I've known countless people who had no degrees who were/are just as accomplished in business as I was, so those degrees don't impress me much either.

A degree in many courses of study actually gives you very little practical experience or knowledge. Getting a job, doing the work, making a difference & knowing I was appreciated for my efforts were the primary things that gave me a feeling of accomplishment, and that's a big deal.

But that was long ago. I know things are different now and being appreciated at work, no matter how accomplished you are, is not always the way things work out. People at all levels are seen by far too many companies as expendable commodities. Entities to get something out of until they're either no longer beneficial or start to cost too much money. And that is one of the reasons I'm very happy to be old and long gone from the business world of today.

I used to tell my nieces that a college degree won't guarantee you a better career, but it'll likely give you more options, as there are still companies that will not even consider applicants that don't have a college degree. Especially in the sciences.

[quote] When I was in high school, many of us had the notion that going to college was the chance to expand our minds, to experiment, to talk into the night about books or philosophy or love or art, to break free of the constraints of our parents and society.

I thought that too. Then I went to college and it seemed like just high school, with most everyone mainly interested in drinking, sports, and doing the bare minimum. There were a few classes I enjoyed, but overall I found it disappointing and certainly not a big achievement to graduate.

For a lot of people (and most of Datalounge) it was the apex of their life. They never really leave. They'll mention it in the first 5 minutes of meeting you. One of the tackiest things is a bumper sticker with your alma mater on it.

College is what you put into it. If you go around with a negative attitude, not making friends, or joining various clubs, or a fraternity or even if it's just writing for the school paper you're not going to enjoy college. There are many opportunities to find your niche, but if you're just going to write everything off then you will not understand what's so great about it and you'll miss out on some wonderful memories and a few lifelong friends.

Whenever I reviewed resumes at work and saw listed a BA from University of Phoenix or Southern New Hampshire I was never exactly sure what to think. Did they simply buy a degree? Was the subject matter any good? Should I admire their drive to get a degree while they missed the class interaction? There are people walking around with nursing degrees they earned online that are now invalidated because the school was discredited. The notion of what being a college graduate is has changed dramatically.

I don't think you have to sit in a classroom to learn. Especially for some of my undergraduate classes, there was very little "class interaction." People were half-asleep from the previous night's party or whatever. Also, some teachers, even in a live classroom, are just fucking boring and sleep-inducing.

I did physically attend classes for both undergraduate and graduate degrees.

R78 well it sounds like you attended a shit college.

Most of my classes were small and "seminar" style. I also happened to like the huge lecture classes, as well, when the professors were dynamic professionals, brilliant even. Top universities don't give those gigs to boring loser teachers. I had physics, economics and literature professors who were Nobel Prize laureates.

[R78] Yes, but we were also familiar with degree mills where you could slide by with minimal effort.

r74, I observed that as well. I was older than a lot of the students attending and had been out on my own for several years so I wasn't into parties or cared about sororities or any of that shit. But what I saw was a bunch of drunk, pot smoking kids barely scraping by in the classes. I was 27 when I graduated and had already been on my own for 9 years by then. I was lucky to meet some older students who were like me so I wasn't forced to hang with the kids who were finally away from mummy and daddy and acting like fools. I did much better in my classes than those young kids did simply because I was more mature and self sufficient and knew I was footing the bill and had to work.

[quote] I had physics, economics and literature professors who were Nobel Prize laureates.

MARY.

OP, anyone who made through knows they graduated FROM College. Looks like you didn't make it.

[quote] I had physics, economics and literature professors who were Nobel Prize laureates.

No you didn't. The chances that one student would have 3 Nobel Prize laureates as professors is outlandishly ridiculous.

You should be embarrassed for even writing that silliness. But I'm sure you're not, so we'll be embarrassed for you.

I went to a most-highly-selective, private liberal arts college. My average class size over four years was eight. My largest class was thirty-five. Pretty much my whole senior year was one-on-one with professors. Let me tell you -you can't skip the reading in a place like that! Most everybody there was serious about their studies, and were top of their classes at elite prep schools. And then there was me: the poor kid from a public high school. Okay, I wasn't the only one -but I sure felt like it most of the time. I got a hell of a good education -but I had to work. You can't compare my college experience forty years ago to a modern degree mill or an online learning experience. They're just too different. That said, you can get a great education just about anywhere (maybe not Liberty U and places like that) if you go there wanting to learn. There are great professors and instructors everywhere, and even if the prof is boring you can still do the reading and research and learn what you need. Yeah, I had that rah-rah-old-school-tie thing. It doesn't make me better -it just makes me older...

I doubt if there are any DLers contemplating college in their future but IF so, I say it's worth it if you have goals for yourself that include learning more about the world and the people in it, along with learning how to do things that someone might pay you for. Learn another language. Learn music. Learn history. It really does make your life better, whatever you end up doing. And if things like that don't appeal to you, don't waste your time or money on a program that aims to provide those things. Find something that fits you and your goals. It's out there -somewhere.

Group work was the pits. There was always one incompetent egoist who insisted on perverting the final product so it wouldn't get a good grade.

R54, but most people will never have large fortunes, with or without a degree. They are in fact what you dismiss as “striving middle-class” – is that supposed to be a bad thing? - although I think you’ll find that the upper-middle class is almost universally college educated as well, and many of them got to the upper-middle class through professions that require a degree.

It was for me. I was the first person in my extended family to graduate from a 4-year liberal arts college. That set me up for a graduate degree, a successful career and early retirement. I have a good life IMHO and college made it possible.

To me it still is a big deal but not at all as a path to success. It is about being better educated and as someone said above, personal growth. The process, as well, is important. Even if the college was not ideal or the program sucked, it is still important for people to dedicate some more years to learning, being tested, etc.

R75, totally agree about the bumper sticker. Not a big fan of middle-aged people wearing alma mater t-shirts, either, especially if they are Ivy League.

A few years back, at a farmer's market, I saw a straight couple wearing Dartmouth t-shirts. "Oooh, Dartmouth!" I said when I passed. They shot me a look, of course. But they wanted me to recognize their status, so I obliged them. Annoying fuckers.

High schools need to direct non-college bound students into trades, so they don't graduate and go to Wendy's. Whether vocational school or something similar.

[quote] I am a college snob. Your degree matters but only if it’s from a good school. If it’s from Illinois State University, you might as well have skipped it altogether as far as I’m concerned.

No point in being a snob. ISU has an excellent Agriculture school. Someone will need to grow your kale salad.

[quote] Is it still critical for middle class employment? Not remotely like it used to be.

Not everyone who is college-educated achieves middle-class employment but there are almost no opportunities for middle-class employment for those who don't have a college education.

R93, spoken like a college graduate with thinking skills. Thank you!

R93 I am a poster on this thread that extols the virtues of college - far beyond the employment/economic benefits. Simply the quality of life and meaningfulness of living is supported by "learning"....

However, check plumbers, electricians, tech coders, chefs, law enforcement, fire fighters. Many, many occupations can deliver a middle-class compensation without four-year degrees. Especially if you include career and technical education - often happening in community colleges.

It's not just college logos, R90. I'm sick of all the oversized branding people are wearing. Why are so many people today turning themselves into walking billboards? Are they desperate to announce their status? Aspiring to something? Does your Lakers shirt form the basis for a meaningful interaction? That said, I don't object to guys wearing college shirts/sweats at the gym. Subtle hint that they've maintained their physique since their college days? I dunno...

Yeah, lots of blue-collar workers (no degree) make middle-class or professional-class incomes.

I think it's big deal. It's big accomplishment.

Historically only about 25% of graduating senior went on to college. That started changing sometime after Vietnam and it went too far.

What do you mean went too far? How can there be too many people graduating from college? Other countries pay for people to go to college.

^^^^ b/c not everyone needs or wants a college education, hun

R101, I meant for those who wanted to go to college but could not afford it. I don't see how you can have too much of that. We should have an educated work force.

I understand that many want to "get off the bus" after high school.

^^^^ b/c not everyone needs or wants a HS education, hun

if college were free (c.f. Europe, Brazil, Russia, Argentina, Turkey, India), more would attend.

The problem right now is that many people borrowed too much money for low-worth or worthless degrees. We over-sold "Go to college!" as the ticket to success in America. It turns out, it depends on the college.

This has become an odd thread. I can't get a read on some of the reactions and they kind of play into what many are saying is the anti-education sentiment running through our country right now. I'm not sure what about college appears to make some of you resentful and angry.

Yes, because it was a real achievement for me. I went to the most prestigious college of the most prestigious university in the country. I had an average of 93% to get in. And my father died under terrible circumstances halfway through my first year, and I survived. I finished my degree and got a thought MA that was two years of intense coursework. I am proud of that, all this happened in the 1999s, when education was infinitely more rigorous than it is today.

R105 It's the populist hatred of "the elite".... hence MAGA. And while I am a poster who continues to describe the importance of formal education to... quality of consciousness for god sake.... there is a crosswalk from that angry mob resentment of anti-elitism and real problems with the post-secondary industrial complex and its marriage-made-in-hell union with the American financial sector.

One of the more common retirement needs now is how to structure payments on your student loans while retired. That's just nuts.

I took it for granted at the time but now I know it was a privilege to be able to go.

r90 plenty of middle aged people wear tshirts with college logos on them, mostly for football shit and most of them never even attended the schools they are fans of. I don't have an issue with that at all. Nor do I have an issue with bumper stickers or license plate frames. It's ok to be proud of where you went to school.

R109, you can be proud of it without advertising it. It's the implicit "Look at me, aren't I something?" that pisses me off. It's a signaling thing, and in poor taste. I revere higher education, almost to a fault, but the Dartmouth t-shirt at a farmer's market is just so blech! Especially here in the Midwest, where few people are Ivy League grads. Look at me, Look at me. LOOK AT ME.

R90 and R109, the most likely reason a middle-aged couple would be wearing matching Dartmouth t-shirts is because their child goes there, and they're proud of him/her. Why would you want to rain on their parade?

R95 and R97, middle-class compensation is not the same as being middle-class. R95's examples are all blue-collar jobs, and white-collar work above the level of clerk is a sine qua non for middle-class status in our society. Teachers may make less money than plumbers, but they have more social status.

If you don’t believe me, look to see who marries whom. High-income professionals often have low-income but college-educated spouses (teachers, social workers). How often do you find a high-income professional with a blue-collar spouse unless it’s some super-fancy job like custom cabinetmaker, usually somebody with a degree in something refined but useless like art history or medieval French literature who drifted into their craft?

Working-class people, even affluent working class ("high prole"), by and large operate in a different social milieu from middle-class people. Everybody knows that, they just don't like to talk about it ... except at the DL, where it is a frequent topic of conversation. I'm surprised any DLer wouldn't see the difference.

"I'm not sure what about college appears to make some of you resentful and angry."

That could take several threads, R105! Here are some of the groups I can think of:

1. People who wanted to go to college but couldn't . Subsets include people who couldn't get in at all, people who didn't get into their first-choice school, and people who couldn't afford it.

2. People who went to college and hated it. Subsets include people who dropped out, people who couldn't get a job that they wanted, and those who never got laid.

3. People who racked up massive debt while attending college. Subsets are those who got great jobs, but spend too much of their income repaying loans, and those who got lousy jobs and are struggling to pay back loans.

4. People who felt that the school was not accepting of their political or social beliefs. They include Republicans, MAGA Republicans, Trumpists, and fundamentalists. There is also a subset of parents who feel their children parted ways with family traditions due to getting a college education.

5. People who hated their major but did it anyway. Subsets include those who had to comply with parental demands, and those who desperately wanted a career with a certain income and/or status and now they're miserable.

6. The last group is people who feel betrayed by their education because it didn't lead to the future they had dreamed of.

BTW, this rather glib list doesn't preclude that some of the people mentioned above having a legitimate gripe. In recent years some schools seem to have trade education for indoctrination, and tuition has risen far above actual inflation. What chaps my hide worse than salsa from New York City is the cry of "elitism!" from people. Having an elite experience does not make one elitist. Since only a little over a third of Americans graduate [or are graduated from] college, graduation itself is an elite act. That doesn't mean they are snobs or look down on their neighbors.

Very well put, R113!

One small addition: I'm not sure merely getting a bachelor's degree constitutes membership in the elite by anyone's measure. The railing against "the elites" is usually directed at graduates of Ivies and near-Ivies and, somewhat, public Ivies who have done well and have a loud public voice granted by the establishment (which is made of up the same sort of graduates).

I agree that doesn't make them snobs, but it would be naive not to recognize that we have replaced one kind of elite ("American aristocracy") for another that is based at least in part on educational credentials.

r95 r97 r112 A work associate didn't go to college and is worth somewhere around fifty million dollars. His dad was a college professor, the world's leading authority on his subject, and an obscenely expensive technical consultant. No, he did not inherit it all from his parents.

My friend from high school has an Associates degree, and his client list includes just about every major film and recording studio in the US, and an impressive string of Grammy-winning performers.

I have a degree from a nice private college and have had an unusually adventurous career, but I'm not worth 50 mil nor have I been involved in any blockbuster film soundtracks lately.

R100 but not everyone wants to go or is qualified to go in those countries. Others go to trade schools or do apprenticeships that lead to skilled jobs. Sometimes they then go on to get university degrees if they do well in tech schools and skilled trades. For example if they work as machinists they might go on and get a bachelors in mechanical engineering. It's not open university enrollment for all and for free.

Germany, Sweden, Denmark. Netherlands...and other countries which offer free University have a different system. Secondary education "splits" about 9th grade... students have to choose or score qualifying marks to proceed to either "post-secondary" career education or University prep... and then successfully score marks and/or tests to enter University.

r33 comes off as snobby, but truth be told in some areas of the country, particularly the Northeast (middle and upper-middle class New England) it's still the prevailing sentiment.

Up until a few decades ago, a middle-class, hard-working HS student, who attended a "good" public HS with good grades and high SAT/ACTs could get into the "lesser" Ivies (Brown, etc) or good private Unis like BU, UVA, Georgetown, etc reasonably easily, with a ton of crippling debt. We need to get back to that scenario to make college-going easy again, whether to well-known schools or state/community Unis or colleges.

Working class and middle class kids who are clever enough to be accepted to the list of "need blind" prestigious private colleges and universities do NOT graduate with crippling debt.

These are the institutions with sufficient endowment and commitment to meritocracy to offer abundant tuition reduction or elimination.

Of course, some of these schools are fudging what they consider "full financial assistance".

And the competition for these slots with FULL TUITION SCHOLARSHIPS is fierce.

However a student should be a smart consumer and NEVER take out crippling loans to attend their "dream school" for the Bachelor. Certain schools became known for being coveted by students but really, in the end, not respectful of their undergraduates needs. So a school like NYU was notorious for decades for building its endowment into the many billions but being quite stingy with undergraduate scholarships, and perfectly content to let all the middle class kiddies dying to go to NYU take out astronomical loans to do so. Total rip off. It was graduating some of the most indebted students in the country.

Meanwhile the student who is a smart consumer and sensible, accepts what he or she has for credentials and demographics, and takes the very best "deal" offered for the B.A. Perhaps he wins the lottery and gets a full tuition scholarship to a college he desires less, or perhaps he attends the state university, which is going to be an expense as well, not free.

It's a very bitter pill for many 18 year olds to swallow that they don't have the magic mix to get those free rides at the "need blind" schools. But that's life.