Composers/Playwrights Who Despised/Hated The Actor M/F In Their Show But Couldn't Do Anything About It

Sophocles hated G in Antigone.

Truman Capote wanted Marilyn Monroe for Breakfast at Tiffany's. He wasn't thrilled with Audrey.

M/F?

Male/Female, I am guessing.

R4.....Bingo

Shakespeare thought Larry hammed it up too much in Othello, was too stagey, and upstaged the text.... He wanted Al instead

Oh, I love this song!

As Tennessee Williams watched Elia Kazan direct his new play 'Cat on a Hot Tin Roof" in rehearsal, he felt "hellish—just about hanging on by the skin of my teeth."

He found the lead actress, Barbara Bel Geddes "inadequate," while Burl Ives, as Big Daddy, "acted like a stuffed turkey."

Capote eventually said "Breakfast at Tiffany's" was “the most miscast film I’ve ever seen” and that “It made me want to throw up,” that Marilyn Monroe didn’t occupy the role of Holly Golightly.

Anne Rice was pissed when she learned that Tom Cruise had been cast as her Lestat - she later said she ended up liking him.

Burl Ives for 'The Big Country'.

If truth be told, I don't believe Stephen Sondheim was ever particularly pleased by any of Patti Lupone's performances of his characters. Or anyone's characters.

Interesting thread. I'll be curious to see if it really gets going.

Ian Fleming thought Sean Connery was miscast as Bond

Stephen King didn't like Jack Nicholson in The Shining.

"I had to keep my mouth shut at the time. It was a screening, and Nicholson was there. But I’m thinking to myself the minute he’s on the screen, 'Oh, I know this guy. I’ve seen him in five motorcycle movies, where Jack Nicholson played the same part.'

Couldn't do anything about it? Try sending them a brusque letter of scathing criticism that will so humiliate them they will feel obligated to storm out of the theater and never return.

Capote was right. Holly is probably Audrey's most iconic role yet she's horribly miscast and not very good.

R12, that’s because his work requires subtlety, nuance, interpretation, an understanding of wry, and MOST IMPORTANTLY: Diction!

These are all qualities Ms. Lupone lacks. She confuses volume with emotion, bombast with subtlety. She has t played anyone other than herself since Anything Gors.

The title is “Anything Gores.”

It’s about bullfighting.

Alfred Hitchcock was disappointed he had to use Priscilla Lane in SABOTEUR.

I saw Cat on TCM today for the first time in thirty years. Despite the billeting of the script, I was surprised by how consistently strong the acting was. Neither Taylor nor Newman were considered deep, but I thought both acquitted themselves well and they were never more gorgeous. Whatever Williams might have thought about Ives onstage, he is superb here—both mythically towering and profoundly human—I assume the Oscar he received that year for his equally good work in The Big Country was as much for his Big Daddy. I think if Judith Anderson so indelibly as Mrs. Danvers, she surprised me with the vulnerability and sweetness she brought to Bug Mama, as well as showing us an inner strength she’ll need in the months ahead. Madeline Sherwood is so funny as a genial, trashy variation on one of the Hubbard in “The Little Foxes.” The revelation for me was Jack Carson’s Gooper, often a thankless role. Carson had grown into a powerful, yet subtle character actor—you could see it starting with his Wally in Mildred Pierce and then in an underappreciated performance as Libby in A Star is Born. His Gooper, while impossible to like or admire, is surprisingly sympathetic and genuine. I don’t think Carson got the credit deserved.

I seem to remember seeing Olivier play Big Daddy on Tv with Wood and Wagner and how awful they all were. Only Maureen Stapleton managed to rise above mediocrity.television.

I can't imagine what Tennessee wouldn't have liked about Burl Ives as Big Daddy. Unless, he personally just disliked Ives.

Or maybe....was Ives considered more a folk singer before he took on that role? Were Tennessee's comments concerning his disappointment before Ives actually began performing?

[quote]Alfred Hitchcock was disappointed he had to use Priscilla Lane in SABOTEUR.

He also didn't like using Farley Granger and (especially) Ruth Roman in Strangers on a Train and Julie Andrews in Torn Curtain.

Or Kim Novak in Vertigo. Or Karen Black in Family Plot.

I like Cat more than most people. I think they are all great. And Jack Carson is amazing. You think of him as the comic relief in Doris Day musicals. then the sympathetic then angry fed up (understandably so) agent in Star is Born. The unloved yet fighting for what he feels he deserves in Cat and then he plays the comic goofy suburban father in Disney's Sammy the Way Out Seal. A really amazing range.

Rodgers had total control of South Pacific. If he didn't want her in it she wouldn't have been there. And then he puts her in Flower Drum Song where she is delightful the opposite of mercenary desperate Bloody Mary. Another Jersey shore girl.

MGM set aside Cat on a Hot Tin Roof for Grace Kelly, which is a bizarre idea. But she was getting married. They then wanted Carroll Baker, which makes more sense.

Ken Kesey hated the idea of Louise Fletcher as Nurse Ratched. He wanted Jo Ann Worley.

R15, I didn't know Stephen King was unhappy with Nicholson. I know he was unhappy with Shelley Duvall. He saw Jessica Lange as truer to his vision.

“I pictured her as someone I’d want to fuck -sorry, Shelley”

Rodgers didn't hate Juanita Hall at all. He just thought she had passed her vocal prime and could no longer sing the role as well as she had on Broadway -hence the dubbing. If he really had hated her, he wouldn't have used her in the film at all. He felt the vocal demands of her character in Flower Drum Song were more limited, so he used her -and her real voice - in that film.

Cher was hated by the original director of MERMAIDS. I think he eventually had a heart attack on set.

And didn’t Peter Bogdanovich detest directing her in MASK, too?

Sam Shepard complained publicly that the producer Joe Papp had replaced the original actors from the San Francisco production of his play "True West" with "movie stars," over his objections, for the New York premiere in 1980. The stars in question were Tommy Lee Jones and Peter Boyle (replacing Peter Coyote and Jim Haynie); Robert Woodruff (who directed both productions) said he was responsible for the casting changes, not Papp, and that Shepard never saw the New York production. Woodruff quit before the production opened, saying the cast was demoralized and nothing was working. The reviews were terrible and it closed in three weeks.

[quote] These are all qualities Ms. Lupone lacks. She confuses volume with emotion, bombast with subtlety.

R18 Well, it worked for Merman. Of course, Sondheim also wasn’t thrilled about Merman shouting his lyrics in Gypsy. I still recall him saying how hard it was to get her to sing the words “Momma…momma” off the beat in “Rose’s Turn.” I wonder if he shouted, “Sing out, Ethel, sing out off the beat!”

r21 and Mildred Pierce!

[quote]Or Kim Novak in Vertigo. Or Karen Black in Family Plot.

Wasn't it Karen Black who asked Hitchcock Method Acting type questions re how to play her role, and he told her she could do whatever she liked as long as she remembered there's a cutting room floor?

When Ingrid Bergman told Hitch that she didn't know to perform a scene he responded, "Fake it."

Another Hitchcock exchange (although I don't remember the actress):

ACTRESS: What's my motivation?

HITCHCOCK: Your paycheck.

So is this about composer/playwrights, or movie directors?

r39 So it's Datalounge, not a college exam. So roll with the current trend here. So, got anything to contribute?

R40 There are a lot of threads about movies. OP specifically talked about composers, playwrights, and shows. SO I assumed that’s what OP wanted to talk about. SO eat me.

Christopher Isherwood utterly defeated the film version of Cabaret, in particular he thought Liza was not right to play Sally Bowles. According to Don Bachardy he almost stormed out of the movie theatre halfway through.

*Utterly detested

Joshua Logan did not want Kim Novak for “Picnic”.

Jack Carson has a good role in The Hard Way (1944).

Another famous Hitchcock one is when asked by an actress what her best side was, he replied, "You're sitting on it."

After SILENCE OF THE LAMBS was published in 1988 and became an instant bestseller, the film rights were bought and it immediately went into pre-production.

Jodie Foster, an avid reader, had enjoyed the novel and sought out the filmmakers when she heard about the movie adaptation, but director Jonathan Demme desperately wanted Michelle Pfeiffer for the part.

However, Pfeiffer objected to the subject matter and turned him down several times, until he went with his second choice, Meg Ryan, who also declined.

Finally, Demme relented and let Foster read and gave her the part.

Well, Hitchcock was wrong about Novak. Since it’s regarded as one of the greatest films of all time, and she’s an integral pat of it, its tone and atmosphere. In his interview with Truffaut, when Truffaut pointed to the fact that Vertigo wasn’t all that successful, Hitchcock said he had a “bad actress” in it. But she got some very good reviews. (He liked to cast blame elsewhere.)

He then went on and talked about how he was going to do the film with Vera Miles and how she got pregnant, etc. I don’t know if Vera Miles was a particularly better actress than Kim Novak, but she had no mysterious quality at all - and anyway, I don’t think I’d believe James Stewart’s character would be that obsessed if it was Vera Miles. She was very pretty but Novak’s intense beauty is partly why the premise in Vertigo works.

Elia Kazan is one fucking overrated director. Those films are shrill and have a very "of its time" feel. What he did to East of Eden was a travesty. Both him and Burl Ives named names to HUAC, and Tennessee Williams was right.

Hitchcock also didn’t care for Sean Connery in Marnie, and once said to Pauline Kael in an interview, “He was never a good actor, you know. He could only play Bond.”

Hitchcock was an abusive cunt on the set of Marnie and a total sex pest.

Sean Connery was hot as fuck in Marnie.

Psycho-sexual manipulation was definitely in his wheelhouse. Who did Hitch want instead, John Gavin? Gorgeous man, but no hint of menace or domination.

Bitchy costumer Cecil Beaton wasn't pleased that Julie Andrews played 'Eliza Doolittle' on Broadway, because he thought that she was plain and wore his clothes terribly.

He was *much* happier with Audrey Hepburn, when MY FAIR LADY was made into a film.

Well look at Hepburn's dress for Ascot one of the most spectacular costumes in any film. Then look at Andrews in the Broadway production. It looks like he was bored designing it.

And yet when he won his Tony for Coco Julie very graciously presented it to him. Her recounting of the photo shoot he did with her at the time of the Broadway production of MFL is pretty funny. I think I read it in Home. He was also the first one in her dressing room after the New Haven first night of MFL. The guy could give a master class in being a first grade cunt.

r54 "Her recounting of the photo shoot he did with her at the time of the Broadway production of MFL is pretty funny"

Please elaborate

Well, r42, I'll bet Isherwood cashed the check nonetheless.

Shelley Duvall wasn’t wanted by Stephen King, and was treated like shit by Stanley Kubrick, and she’s one of the best things about The Shining.

Why don't you read the book?

Oh ok. During the shoot he acted very excited taking many pictures telling her how wonderful and great it was going getting more and more involved filling her with confidence and happiness. After the session was over and he started putting his equipment away he said to her, 'Of course you have the most Unphotographical face imaginable.'

[quote] Christopher Isherwood utterly defeated the film version of Cabaret, in particular he thought Liza was not right to play Sally Bowles. According to Don Bachardy he almost stormed out of the movie theatre halfway through

That doesn't sound right. Liza IS Sally Bowles! I can't think of another 'name' who could have pulled that off. Who did he envision in the role?

Nancy Sinatra IS Sally Bowles!

I can imagine Isherwood not thinking Liza was right, because she's American and exudes star quality, both of which are not Sally -- but detesting the film? He must have been an idiot.

It's one of the great films of all time, and certainly the greatest adaptation of a musical to film ever. Maybe he detested how much it improved on his novel.

R59, Natasha Richardson was probably more like what he was thinking.

Life is a cabaret!

Or the gal who opened the London production.

I don't think it's a great film at all. After seeing the original opening number on the Tonys and loving the obc and Jill Haworth you can keep the film. One of those if only I had a time machine shows.

The CABARET film is nothing like the stage show.

Different story and different characters.

British Sally was made American, and American Cliff was made British and renamed Brian.

Several of the songs were scrapped or replaced.

A completely different animal.

[quote]she surprised me with the vulnerability and sweetness she brought to Bug Mama

Yes it’s sublime!

^physically ill at this image ^

Herbert Ross hated at least half the cast of Steel Magnolias.

Robert Harling seemed to be relatively happy with the choices, but Ross had issues with almost everyone, especially Julia.

The Cabaret film is very plainly based on the stage show, R65, including sharing MOST of the score, but has adapted it to be far slicker and far more punchy in relation to its commentary on Weimar and Nazism. That--and the dazzling choreography and filming of the choreography--is why it's so much better.

Cliff wasn't American in the novel.

R15 Stephen King was also unhappy with Molly Ringwald in The Stand

John Waters thought Edith Massey was all wrong for the Egg Lady but the studio suits were intent on pushing her.

All of the songs in the Cabaret movie are diegetic, meaning they occur within the context of the story (cabaret performances, beer garden rally).

The stage show features several "book songs" where the characters burst into song to express their feelings/thoughts, but those were scrapped for the film version.

R71 He wanted Florence Henderson for Donna Dasher.

Dear R17: Truman Capote maybe indeed have visualized a lost, messy, slutty Marilyn Monroe as Holly Golightly, seeing her as a kind of proto-hippie and natural bohemian.

But Audrey Hepburn was a gift to that film, becoming instantly iconic in the role. And it was precisely her classiness and aristocratic bearing that made a character like Holly palatable to audiences in 1961 and to the censors, who still held some sway at the time. Monroe was wonderful, a singular, vulnerable screen presence, but she couldn’t have given the film the glamorous luster it had and still has now, a movie that explains why some people in small towns everywhere still think about going to New York..

Picture that fantastic opening with Monroe instead of Hepburn and it isn’t the same. Monroe couldn’t wear clothes well, she was never chic and the part required a real sense of style. The film was a success because of Audrey Hepburn and she got an Oscar nomination for it.

So she may not have been Capote’s Holly but she was everyone else’s.

Elizabeth Taylor hated swiss cheese but they put it on everything.

Capote's overrated. He's lucky Blake Edwards did such a good job.

Excuse me! People portraying me have won an Oscar, a Tony, and an Emmy.

Monroe was not always "messy, slutty" in her films. She would have been far more believable as a former backwoods gal than Hepburn. That being said, I love Audrey in the film, just don't feel she's the definitive choice.

Think the only writer who was happy with the film casting was Margret Mitchell . Gable as Rhett Butler was a no brainer.

Neither Laurence Olivier, the co-star, nor Alfred Htchcock, the director, wanted Joan Fontaine for "Rebecca." Olivier wanted his wife Vivien leigh 9who is awful in her screen test for the role--she plays the 2nd Mrs. de winter like Scarlett O'Hara), and Hitchcock wanted Anne Baxter, who is good in her screen test but far too young for the part (she was only 16 at the time). The producer, David O. Selznick, insisted on Joan fontaine. One of the reasons Fontaine is so effective in the role is that because both Olivier and Hitchcock were so cold o her on set she felt lonely and alienated--which is how the main character feels throughout most of the film.

Yes, Tru, people are more fascinated by your schtick and socializing than by your actual work.

R18 would know from bombast.

Threads like these bring out the cane-wielding umbrage in the eldergays... I enjoy it so much! And I suspect it's good for their circulation too.

Juanita Hall was half-African American, half-white, but for some reason Rodgers and Hammerstein cast her as the Polynesian Bloody Mary and as the Chinese-American Madame Liang.

I agree Hepburn is wonderfully affecting as Holly (despite her limitations as an actress) and wears the clothes beautifully. The problem is that she not only seems unconvincing as someone who grew up in backwoods Kentucky, but also that she just seemed far too classy to be living off other men.

Capote was really besotted with Monroe whom he had befriended, and he had wrote the novella with her in mind. Although like Hepburn Monroe had a limited range, the part would have been more easily within hers more than it was in Hepburn's.

It ultimately doesn't matter because Hepburn is indeed an icon in the role, and the film is very successful on its own terms.

Could Ava Gardner have played Holly, or was she too old at 39.

Gardner was not good at playing vulnerable.

[quote]Capote eventually said "Breakfast at Tiffany's" was “the most miscast film I’ve ever seen” and that “It made me want to throw up,” that Marilyn Monroe didn’t occupy the role of Holly Golightly.

How did he feel about Mr. Yunioshi?

Breakfast at Tiffany's is one of the very few old films that young people know about. So famous that probably young straight guys are forced to watch it with their girlfriends. Edwards and everyone else got so much right and New York is seen at its most glamorous. At times Hepburn is a great actress. See The Nun's Story. And nobody has done the tea party in Pygmalion or MFL better. Every line is perfect in its timing and inflections as if she were almost near fluency in a foreign language and getting a bit carried away.

Or acting ability, r52. A poor man’s Rock Hudson.

Hepburn is great in MLF once Eliza has her transformation, but as Pauline Kael pointed out, she is utterly unconvincing as a guttersnipe.

You do all realize that had MM been cast as Holly the entire character would have been conceived differently to take advantage of her strengths? It's not like she would have worn the same wardrobe as Hepburn, for example. I can easily imagine MM showing up in front of the Tiffany's window eating a cheese danish with her coffee to go in some frothy white ensemble designed by Orry-Kelly.

And she would have been a much bigger contrast to Patricia Neal (if Neal would have even been cast). I'm not sure that MM would have had great chemistry with George Peppard though. Few did.

Perhaps we don't all realize know. I'm sure we don't share the strength of your concern.

R92, More likely Jean Louis.

Hitchcock didn't care for Sylvia Sydney in SABOTAGE either. They clashed, and Hitch also said her face was "hard to light." Didn't have the right angles.

Hitchcock just didn't like actors very much. He infamously said more than once they should be treated like cattle.

It's odd because his films feature so many truly memorable performances. but I think they were in spite of his direction rather than because of it.

r93 "Perhaps we don't all realize know."

Ok

R84 Where were R&H and Joshua Logan supposed to get a Polynesian actress-singer of the right age, type, and ability, in the late 1940s?

R94 Even more likely, Edith Head, since it was a Paramount picture.

Vera Miles costume test for Vertigo

More Miles tests

Novak tests and stills

R53 yes cecil & Julie - but they became friends after. He said she’s (my word) scrappy & liked that about her.

R23, Julie Andrews and Paul Newman were imposed upon Hitchcock for "Torn Curtain" by Lew Wasserman. They were two of the top Hollywood stars at the time and their salaries took a big chunk of the production's $5 million budget. Further still, Andrews was only available for a short period of time, so Hitch had to rush production even though he wasn't yet satisfied with the script.

As for Method actor, Paul Newman, he supposedly asked Hitch what was his character's motivation, to which Hitch replied, "your salary."

The director's experience working with Newman was similar to his earlier experience with Montgomery Clift in "I Confess." As everyone knows, Hitchcock storyboarded all his scenes and expected his actors to mimic every last detail on the storyboards. Clift, however, kept flubbing take after take because he was more inclined to work more organically.

Paul Newman wanted to play the leading male role in Picnic when the show went on tour but director Joshua Logan said Newman lacked the sex threat of Ralph Meeker.

In other words, Newman wasn't willing to fuck Logan.

R96 - Hitchcock did get along well with Robert Walker, Grace Kelly, Joseph Cotton and Bruce Dern - and I imagine Cary Grant and James Stewart as well since they made a number of films together.

I think he also got along very well with Dietrich on Stage Fright (but not with Jane Wyman) and Bankhead on Lifeboat.

R107, Hitchcock adored Ingrid Bergman.

David Merrick wanted Streisand (and Gould) fired from out of town tryouts in Wholesale - per Arthur Laurents. Jerome Weidman (composer) loved Streisand’s “plaintive jewess” on his songs.

Arthur Laurents was a rotten cunt.

Everyone adored Ingrid Bergman, R108.

Did MM slurp Capote's shaft?

Oddly, Maggie Smith turned Larry down! He desperately wanted her for the then (1969-70) production of GUYS AND DOLLS, he playing Nathan Detroit

[quote]Rodgers had total control of South Pacific. If he didn't want her in it she wouldn't have been there. And then he puts her in Flower Drum Song where she is delightful the opposite of mercenary desperate Bloody Mary.

Thank you. The OP certainly started off this thread with some weird examples.

You mean Harold Rome, r109, the composer of WHOLESALE. Jerome Weidman wrote the book. And the novel.

R113 Well, Larry should not have hit her then.

Hit her??He choked the fucking shit out of her like a rag doll until she was no more.

Juanita Hall originated the role on Broadway—how could he hate her?

She was dubbed in the film version, but that was fairly common…that’s not hateful.

Well, according to reliable reports, it was Rodgers who insisted that Juanita Hall's singing be dubbed for the movie of SOUTH PACIFIC, and the person he chose to dub her was Muriel Smith, who had played Bloody Mary in London (and who had previously starred on Broadway in the title role of CARMEN JONES, with lyrics by Hammerstein). Apparently Rodgers wanted Bloody Mary to have a smoother, more legit sound for the movie, but just about everyone who has ever seen the movie thinks he made a huge mistake.

But yes, Hall was still cast to play the role (although dubbed) in the movie, plus Rodgers also approved her casting in FLOWER DRUM SONG on stage and in the movie, so I very much doubt that he "hated" her.

Wasn't it almost 10 years between SOUTH PACIFIC's premiere on Broadway and the shooting of the movie? That's a long time for a singer of Juanita Hall's age and it's likely her voice had lost a bit of its power during that time.

And, if it hasn't already been said upthread, her songs in FLOWER DRUM SONG were much lighter and more charactery. There was no "Bali Hai" for her in the second score.

R120, Hall never had a particularly powerful voice, and "power" would obviously not have been a major requirement in recording a film soundtrack in a studio. Based on Hall's singing in "You are Beautiful" on the original cast album of FLOWER DRUM SONG, she still had the goods for "Bali H'ai" in the late 1950s.

Powerful was perhaps the wrong word, r121/ Would you settle for depth? Soul?

Side note: I think Mandy Patinkin's insufferable, but his version of "Bali H'ai" is excellent.

That was lovely R123. Thank you for posting!

From what I heard, Rodgers felt Hall's voice was not in good shape at the time of the filming. I think it was a decision made after she was already cast. Obviously, her voice did get better by the time Flower Drum Song started rehearsals.

Since the love of Tennessee Williams' life was a liquor bottle, it's not hard to believe he disliked a lot of the people who acted in his works.

R126 Not pills and booze? Didn't he die via a pill bottle top?

That's an urban legend. On February 25, 1983, Williams was found dead at age 71 in his suite at the Hotel Elysée in New York City. Chief Medical Examiner of New York City Elliot M. Gross reported that Williams had choked to death from inhaling the plastic cap of a bottle of the type used on bottles of nasal spray or eye solution. The report was later corrected on August 14, 1983, to state that Williams had been using the plastic cap found in his mouth to ingest barbiturates and had actually died from a toxic level of Seconal.

Burl Ives as bad guy is a no.

R128 Thank you, darling. So pills did kill him.

[quote]what does secanol do

Seconal is a barbiturate. The effect is similar to that of Tuinals or Quaaludes. Quite addictive.

You mean Dolls, r131?

Just an FYI to all: Tennessee Williams was an alcoholic long before he was a drug addict.

R131 So, a downer?

Hitchcock was friends with a lot of actors. James Stewart and Hitchcock had dinner together regularly. He was friends with Hume Cronyn and Jessica Tandy. Norman Lloyd, too (who ended up producing his TV show. Cronyn wrote on some of his films. He and his wife were friends with Grace Kelly. I think Anne Baxter and John Hodiak. Etc.

R68 Herbert Ross was mean, abusive, nasty piece of work. He had even worked with McClaine prior to SM and they still had it out multiple times on that messy set.

R136 Wasn't he with Lee at the time? Or his wife had just died, or some such shit?

He was.

[quote]John Waters thought Edith Massey was all wrong for the Egg Lady but the studio suits were intent on pushing her.

They had to. She fucked and sucked her way to the upper echelons of the studio system.

It's a shame she passed away and her role in Out of Africa had to be recast with that reprobate Streep. Edith would have been Oscar gold.

Lee Meriwether? Lee Grant? Lee Strasberg?

Radziwill

Lee Majors, Rose.

R129, Burl Ives kept a mistress ensconced in her own apartment on 57th Street and 9th Ave., where she lived until she died. The apartment reverted to the family. I know his daughter.

“Johnny Fontane never gets that movie. That part is perfect for him. It'll make him a big star. I'm gonna run him out of the movies.”

Lee Purcell?

I thought Audrey Hepburn was perfect as Holly, but the movie wasn't very good (they not only de-gayed the narrator- they made him a gigolo). Holly is supposed to be reinventing herself as a chic New York, actress/ingenue/ society girl.

Marilyn was in her 30's by then and- though appealing- wasn't right for a kid from the sticks trying to be Suzy Parker

[quote]From what I heard, Rodgers felt Hall's voice was not in good shape at the time of the filming. I think it was a decision made after she was already cast. Obviously, her voice did get better by the time Flower Drum Song started rehearsals.

Maybe, but it doesn't make much sense to me that her voice would be in rough shape during the period when she would have recorded her songs for the SP soundtrack and then improve greatly in a short period of time.

When this thread reaches 600 replies and needs a second edition, I sure hope Juanita Hall's name appears in the thread title. I'm certain we'll be still be talking about her.

[quote]R74 Picture that fantastic opening with Monroe instead of Hepburn and it isn’t the same. Monroe couldn’t wear clothes well, she was never chic and the part required a real sense of style.

I don’t remember Holly in the book as being breathtakingly stylish. I think Hepburn dragged that in there via her usual contractual demands for Givenchy.

Exactly, r150. What Holly imagines herself to be in the book is not a reality. MM would have been perfect (with her Edith Head wardrobe).

Except Monroe couldn't act, and Hepburn could. And Hepburn also did things like show up for work on time.

Holly Golightly was not supposed to be some bombshell. Hepburn was fantastic. Capote was wrong.

As he often was. Total cunt.

Saying Marilyn couldn’t act is stupid.

R154, she worked at being good, and did okay in The Misfits, and she was most adept at comedy, but her range was limited and might have been enhanced but who knows. That's a fair assessment, I think.

Well, the whole movie could have gone in a different direction. The book is a bit grim… almost a missing person mystery. Paul reads about Holly in the paper (she’s marrying a South American executive overseas?) and it causes him to remember this adventurous party girl he knew when he was newly arrived in New York.

It probably would have been truer to the source material in black and white.

Regardless, Monroe was wrong for Holly Golightly. For Bus Stop, she was perfect.

[quote]R155 her range was limited

And Audrey Hepburn’s was [italic]wide?

R158, could Monroe play a nun, a princess, a terrorized blind woman? Hepburn could and did.

I rest my case.

Could Hepburn have played the leads in Niagara, Bus Stop, Gentlemen Prefer Blondes, or The Seven Year Itch? What’s your point?

My point, R160, is that Hepburn was a better actress with more emotional range.

Hepburn ran the gamut of emotions from A to B.

Oh....wait.

[quote] Could Hepburn have played the leads in Niagara, Bus Stop, Gentlemen Prefer Blondes, or The Seven Year Itch? What’s your point?

I think he made his point, and if he didn't, you just made it for him. All the Marilyn roles you named were pretty much variations of the same character.

Did the Hepburn sisters get along for the most part?

Or were Katherine and Audrey like Olivia and Joan?

Monroe actually had a lot more in common with Holly, personally, than Hepburn did. (Humble beginnings, pass around good time girl, never planning for tomorrow...)

In the book she’s a barely disguised prostitute.

We're talking about range of characters.

Well, Cary Grant, John Wayne, Jimmy Stewart, Joan Crawford, Bette Davis and that other Hepburn pretty much made successful long careers playing variations on the same character, too. And IMHO so did Audrey whether it was guttersnipe or nun or blind lady.

[quote]r164 Did the Hepburn sisters get along for the most part? Or were Katherine and Audrey like Olivia and Joan?

It’s now accepted that Audrey was Katherine’s child with Luddy Brown. The babe was sent overseas to be raised in the quiet Dutch countryside, hopefully to never be seen or heard of again.

There was an “e! True Hollywood Story” segment on this.

Katharine (correct spelling) Hepburn played everything from screwball comedy to Eugene O'Neill to Shakespeare and Shaw on stage. Yes, she was famous for her style, but she was a striving, driven actress.

Audrey's had range.

She got fucked by horses?

Audrey was wrong for the part — completely wrong personality for Holly. But Marilyn would have been wrong too.

When I read the novella, I couldn’t get a certain acquaintance out of my head.

BaT probably wouldn’t have become the iconic movie it is without the contrast between elegant, Givenchy-clad Audrey and the tawdry story. It’s not as simple as “who is the most believable?” in a given role. Change any major element and the whole film changes.

I was the other big star of the 1950s.

It was novel and shocking to see Audrey as a whore; Marilyn, not so much.

The Princess in Roman Holiday was no innocent. she slept with Gregory Peck.

I say this as a Marilyn fan - but personality + ability aside, she was teetering on being too mature for the role. I don’t see Holly as being over 30. She represents that time in your 20s where you’re finding your way in the Big City.

It becomes too sad if she’s still knocking around from pillar to post in her mid 30s. Doesn’t it?

Breakfast at Tiffany's is breathtaking in its vapidity. The only things worth watching it for are a young George Peppard and Hepburn's wardrobe.

Thanks.

I love how Truman told every woman he ever met that she was the inspiration for Holly. And if they write a memoir it’s always in there.

R180, Carol Saroyan Matthau?

Carol Grace (Saroyan Matthau) on Broadway in “The Cold Wind and the Warm” with Suzanne Pleshette.

Her next job was understudying Anne Baxter, who felt threatened by Carol watching all the rehearsals and performances closely. Baxter spat at her one night, “You’re never going to play this part.”

“Neither are you,” said Carol.

R182, Streisand writes of forming a pleasant friendship with Carol Matthau in her new autobiography, despite her problems with Walter during the filming of “Hello, Dolly!”.

Anne Baxter is not listed in the opening night cast.

R184, Read R182 again.

The Anne Baxter play referred to by R182.

Ah yes.

[quote]BaT probably wouldn’t have become the iconic movie it is without the contrast between elegant, Givenchy-clad Audrey and the tawdry story. It’s not as simple as “who is the most believable?” in a given role. Change any major element and the whole film changes.

Yes. For example, if Mickey Rooney hadn't been cast in the film, those scenes might actually be watchable.

There's no question that Hepburn was miscast as Holly. When she talks about coming from the Ozarks, it's pretty ridiculous. And yet, she made the role her own and its now iconic. Another example is Jimmy Stewart playing the hardbitten journalist in Philadelphia Story. But he ended up with an Oscar for it.

Tangent on actresses here but IMO Audrey is a much more appealing actress than Marilyn and could handle dramatic parts better. My favorite role of hers is Two For the Road but she never really gave a bad performance save the miscasting in My Fair Lady, which is in every single way inferior to the excellent 1938 film Pygmalion. Plus - she could handle stage work. Which a majority of the studio types could not. I do wonder why she didn’t return to it after the 1950s.

Marilyn wasn’t a horrific actress (really quite good in Bus Stop, which is underrated even among her fans) but much of the revisionist praise of her is misguided. She really didn’t know her own limits and desperately wanted to be seen as an intellectual (the marriage to Arthur Miller, the association with the Strasberg) while at the same time endlessly capitalizing off her (to quote Pauline Kael) “Lolita turned Medusa” goo-goo baby doll persona. I wonder how she didn’t immediately go out of style when the likes of Bardot became famous? Though I suppose her decline was in place by 1962. BB was a “sex kitten” but in a far more modern sense than the dumb blondes of the 1950s. I don’t think she could have pulled off BaT because the point is Holly SUCCEEDS at passing into these upper class social circles despite the backwater origin.

Kim Novak is probably comparable to her rather than Audrey. Both under very strong direction could be affecting. I actually like Kim better - she’s wonderful in Middle of the Night and of course Vertigo, and her persona didn’t rely on her being a child-woman like Marilyn. Ironically Kim’s legal first name they made her change once she came to Hollywood was Marilyn…

R190, I wondered if they’d ever met, but the photo below answers my question.

Also Tennessee Williams was 10000% right about the abomination of a studio hack job that is Cat on a Hot Tin Roof. The central conflict of the story is Brick’s homosexuality. You don’t have the impact or radical nature of the play without it. One of the most moving things I’ve ever read is Big Daddy’s speech to Brick about how it’s not wrong for him to have had feelings for Skipper, how being closeted is destroying him from the inside. Incredible stuff for a 1950s mainstream play and the movie took all of that out.

I often quote what Williams allegedly said about the film in a line for admissions at the movie theater: “This movie will set back the industry 50 years! Go home!”

I’ve been reading about Samuel Beckett recently and he didn’t like a great majority of the stagings of his work. Women still gripe that he (or rather his estate now) doesn’t let women play the main roles in Waiting for Godot but do they know how many female centric plays he has that are just juicy monologues?

^On second thought, that’s a horrible Photoshop.

No shit, Sherlock. That’s Audrey on the night of her Oscar win…and Marilyn coming back from the grocery store.

Watched the Kennedey Honors. I think Lin-Manuel needs to go away for awhile. What a talent ,etc. But go. Shoo

Was she unbearable as ever, R195?

Lin-Manuel is looking chunky and haggard.

Is this thread ever going to get back to the actual topic OP established or are you all just going to mince on about Audrey Hepburn v. Marilyn Monroe for the next 400 posts?

Capote revealed on his deathbed that he was inspired to write Holly after watching Vance on "I Love Lucy."

R199, Imagine, living a celebrated life like Capote and end up dying in the guest bedroom of Johnny Carson’s second wife.

The argument about who was the better actress Monroe or Hepburn is absurd, since both were "stars" and every role they played was a variation on their star persona, regardless of if it was a nun, a prostitute, or a secretary. This is like arguing whether Julia Roberts or Greta Garbo was the better actress. Both were stars and they were hired to play a variation on that persona. This is not brain surgery, neither Hepburn or Monroe was ever hired because of their capacity to "disappear" into a character, ala Streep. There are variations in terms of their performances in terms of vulnerability and emotional accessibility, but again, that was part of both of their appeal, and arguably most female movie stars' appeal. Both Monroe and Hepburn were able to depict vulnerability and access their emotions quite well when the role required, but neither was better than the other at it.

Bullshit, R201. Hepburn was the more capable actress.

MM would have been perfect as HG. AH, as divine as she was, was not the right person for the role. But I'm sure the producers were more than happy with the results.

And the Motion Picture Academy that gave Hepburn an Oscar nomination. And the generations who still love her in it.

So much for miscasting, R203.

R202, explain what you mean by capable please? And please don't say because her Sister Luke, Holly, Sabrina, Eliza, were all exactly the same...

And I was the other one, too!

And then there was me!

Meant to write, 'and please don't say because she played a diverse array of characters because her Sister Luke, Holly, Sabrina, Eliza, and Princess Anne were all exactly the same. She played gentle, elegent women because that was her star persona.

R174, see R206 and R207.

R208, “Two For the Road”? “Wait Until Dark”?

[quote]R190 the point is Holly SUCCEEDS at passing into these upper class social circles despite the backwater origin.

What high class social circles are these? She associates with mobsters and gives freewheeling parties while wrapped in a sheet.

Top Ten Box Office stars from 1950 to 1959...in these lists there are more men than women, so I've taken out the men.

1950: #4 Betty Grable, #8 Esther Williams

1951: #3 Betty Grable, #9 Doris Day

1952: #7 Doris Day, #9 Susan Hayward

1953: #6 Marilyn Monroe, #9 Susan Hayward

1954: #5 Marilyn Monroe, #9 Jane Wyman

1955: #2 Grace Kelly, #9 June Allyson

1956: #8 Marilyn Monroe, #9 Kim Novak.

1957: No women made the list.

1958: #2 Elizabeth Taylor, #7 Brigitte Bardot

1959: #4 Doris Day, #5 Debbie Reynolds, #10 Susan Hayward

Audrey Hepburn never made it.

R205, I mean, quite simply, that you could put Hepburn in a variety of roles and you could not do that with Monroe. Hepburn had more range. And she wasn't always exactly the same in everything. Do you understand now what I've been saying quite clearly all along? If you don't want to hear it and you only want to argue about it, that's not my problem.

R208, Eliza in MY FAIR LADY is not a "gentle and elegant" character, especially not in the earlier scenes. Even after her transformation, she may be elegant but she's not gentle. If you thought Hepburn came across as gentle and elegant throughout, I assume you thought she was miscast in that role.

None of the above mentioned actresses came close to the versatility of Bette Davis.

Katharine Hepburn surpasses Davis, R215.

Don’t be ridiculous, R216.

Yes, get the fuck off of the Hepburn/Monroe casting. Let's go back to OP's original topic.....I heard Tennessee hated the entire cast of "Sweet Bird," cursed out Kazan, and bolted from the first dau of rehearsals. Guess that's the read through.....hated the actors, the director, and hated himself....He had one more play in him, the underrated "Night of Iguana," and then got married to alcohol and pills....

The only actor Tenn thought spectacular in "Cat" was Ben Gazzara. But then Tenn had a soft spot for the Dagos. Starting with his husband of the time.....

Tennessee did have a thing for the Dagos. He loved Anna Magnani. Wrote "The Rose Tatoo.: Great actress, homelier than a Mac Lorry ( hi Brits. Don't let us Yanks keep you out of the conversation).

Wrote "The Rose Tatoo" for her...meant to say.....

I doubt Williams hated Geraldine Page in SWEET BIRD. He often listed her among the handful of actresses he adored.

r220 r221 Wrong both times.

T-A-T-T-O-O

Oh, R216, wake up. Hepburn was always the superior actress to Davis. Even Davis knew that.

You sound so certain, r224. Did you know Davis?

R225, I know she had a real respect for Hepburn as an actress, unlike you.

Bette always had to smoke but Kate gave it up.

Since posters are mentioning films as well, Dick Van Dyke has said that P.L. Travers, the author of "Mary Poppins" hated him, hated Julie in the roles. She also hated the animation, especially the penguins.

Did she like the money she got from the movie, R228?

There was a whole movie about that.

George Cukor did not like working with Anouk Aimee on JUSTINE (1969)

I don’t know what the conflict was, but he found her frustrating.

^^ you can imagine them not being on the same page. She was icy and inscrutable while he was an effusive showboat.

You can see her practically shutting down in this pic of him directing her.

Anouk was so beautiful and such a fascinating actress, shame she did so little work. She still looks great. I can’t imagine she and Cukor would have got on at all, like someone said he was a showboat and she was not remotely self conscious in the way an American actress would be.

A role Tennessee Williams did write for Marilyn Monroe was the lead of Baby Doll. He said Carroll Baker was too drab for the character. I wonder why he constantly worked with Elia Kazan considering Kazan often overrode his favored casting and interpretations.

Because he still thought Kazan was a great director, I assume.

Monroe seemed WAY too old to play a child bride. At least Baker was more age appropriate. Just goes to show even Tennessee Williams could be wrong, as Capote was.

Who was first pick in "Sound of Music" role that Peggy Wood got? So old she couldn't sing. "Climb Every Mountain" was dubbed, with her face in the dark during most of song.

Carroll Baker is brilliant in Baby Doll. It would have been so interesting to see her in The Three Faces of Eve and Cat on a Hot Tin Roof, had Warner Bros. allowed her to accept the loan outs.

Carroll Baker as Maggie? No, R237.

R224, Katharine Hepburn displayed a mere fraction of the range Bette Davis could . . . and did.

R239, Hepburn's performance in Long Day's Journey Into Night proves how ludicrous your statement is.

R240, And Bette’s performance in “Now, Voyager” proves how ridiculous your premise is.

Girls, you're both fat whores.

R242, you're comparing the performance in that shlockfest Now, Voyager to the other performance Eugene O'Neill?

*performance in Eugene O'Neill

Hepburn and 'Toole, perfectly matched, and MADE LION, the classic it has become

R243, More would agree with me than you.

Hepburn had a far more varied carerr, with much more inetresting choices and always better material.

Hepburn had a far more varied career, with much more interesting choices and always better material.

Typos fixed. I guess an Edit function will never happen for creeky DL.

R213 I don't know how anyone can compare Hepburn and Monroe's acting range when MM died before she could really dig into any dramatic roles.

R249, Monroe was in movies for 14 years, so she had time to prove herself--not that she didn't try, I'll giver her that.

Don't want to start a separate thread, but are the actors and actresses Sondheim absolutely loathed?

He loved my jazz.

R248 is obviously unaware of Bette Davis’ career. Do a little homework, hon, and get back to us, okay?

You're so wrong, R253. I could give you a list of movies I loved her in, I read her autobiography (Mother Goddam) and I've seen quite a lot of inetrviews with her.

I should say her second autobiography, not The Lonely Life or This n That. So don't try to educate me on what I already know, R253.

Would you like my list, R253, fn my favorite Davis performances? Marked Woman, Jezebel, Dark Victory, The Letter, The Little Foxes, All About Eve, the TV movie with Gena Rowlands, several more. But the movies themselves were often negligible, with the exception of the ones I've named. There are several more perforamnces of hers I could list if I thought more on it.

R254 “Mother Goddam” was written by Whitney Stine, not Bette Davis.

All Bette did was add some comments after Whitney had completed the book.

I'm aware, R257. But she commented throughout the entire book, so to me that is a form of autobiography, or co-authorship. I'm sure she would agree.

Michael Callan said Jerome Robbins thought he was too good looking to play Riff. He told Mickey to think of someone he hated to get a meaner look on his face.

R258, Wrong again, sweetie. On this Dick Cavett appearance with Whitney Stine, Bette clearly states that it is not her book at all and gives Whitney full credit beginning at 16:30.

R260, what do you mean, "wrong again"? When was I wrong the first time? I understand her desire to be modest. The fact is she added a lot of comments to it. Let's just agree to disagree.

Sorry, but I find it impossible to think that Tennessee objected to Paul Newman in CAT or SWEET BIRD, in which he did the Broadway premiere, as well as the film. Also, hard to believe he could have been unhappy with Geraldine Page, Ed Begley or Shirley Knight in the film. The film has lots of problems but not the casting.

Though always a popular star, Elizabeth Taylor didn't really become a huge star until the Debbie/Eddie/Liz scandal in 1958.

Please, no lame jokes about much more huge she got later.

Because it's all made-up bullshit, R262. What you say is completely correct.

I really wish we could return to arguing about Juanita Hall.

I'm all for that, R265. I've more than made my points to the Bette Davis stan.

Reportedly, Warren Beatty in just a robe knocked on Tennessee Williams’ hotel door and was prepared to offer himself sexually to land the role in “The Roman Spring of Mrs. Stone”.

Tennessee just looked at him and said “Go back to your room, Warren, you’ve got the part”.

R266 actually believes he’s made valid, concrete points in defense of his beloved Kate.

R268, I actually defended both wonderful actresses. It's time to move on, darling.

what about our sweet little Stevie Sondheim raging and throwing fits over actors fucking jp his jam?

fucking up

[quote] fucking jp his jam

Hmmm, R270?

R215 Bette Davis made the list in the '40s. In the '50s she semi-retired for a while from movies. She did Broadway, toured, did TV. Other than All About Eve and The Star, it wasn't her best decade in film.

James Cameron wanted Gwyneth Paltrow to play Rose in Titanic

What does that have to do with versatility, R273?

Take a look at “The Catered Affair”(1956).

oh, man R272....get hip, man, don't be a square. fucking up his jam = his songs. his jam is his songs, mandrake

Hepburn's 1950s years were filled with great films--The African Queen, Pat and Mike, Summertime, The Rainmaker, and Suddenly, Last Summer, all very different roles, and culminating in 4 Oscar nomnations for her for that decade alone.

Not to mention that in the 1950s Hepburn had successes on stage in Shakespeare and Shaw.

With Cloris Leachman!

R251 Sondheim didn't loathe Streaisand but he detested the way she fucked with his lyrics.

I heard he loved Frank, who had his way with lyrics and stumbled on a recording of I'd Like To Lead When I Dance

Hepburn is great in the scene when she comes to Higgins' home to ask for lessons Everybody is. Cukor's direction is masterful.

And nobody could do the Ascot scene better. I just wish they had left the damn teacup on stage.

I wonder how many times Callan had to go to bed with Robbins to get Riff.

R277, Though Bette Davis chose to move to Maine and raise her children with Gary Merrill in the 1950s, she still has All About Eve, Payment on Demand, The Star and The Catered Affair among her filmography for that decade, plus two Oscar nominations.

Admittedly, her peak years were the 1930s/1940s, with almost every movie she made a success and some have even become classics.

[quote]Sondheim didn't loathe Streaisand but he detested the way she fucked with his lyrics.

Streisand doesn't loathe r280, but I'm sure she detests the way he fucked with her last name.

And yet Sondheim willingly reworked a few of his songs at Streisand's request., including Send in the Clowns. Doesn't appear that he hated her for asking.

Streisand also asked the Sunset Boulevard lyricists to alter the lyrics to As If We Never Said Goodbye for her 1993 concerts.

[quote]Reportedly, Warren Beatty in just a robe knocked on Tennessee Williams’ hotel door and was prepared to offer himself sexually to land the role in “The Roman Spring of Mrs. Stone”. Tennessee just looked at him and said “Go back to your room, Warren, you’ve got the part”.

I've heard that story, and the only part of it that I find unbelievable is Williams not taking Beatty up on the offer :-)

I'm the first to criticize Streisand for her high-handedness and ego, but I don't think there's anything wrong with her asking Sondheim and others to rewrite some lyrics to some of their songs for her purposes. Of course, they were free to say no and tell her, "Please sing them as written or not at all." I for one don't mind any of the new Sondheim lyrics, and as for "As If We Never Said Goodbye," I think it works far better in its rewritten version as a "Streisand returns to live performances" song than it does in context in SUNSET BLVD.

The Star and Payment on Demand are laughably bad. Have you watched them recently?

Even Joan Crawford had a better 1950s than Bette did.

r277, you can add Desk Set to Kate Hepburn's hits of the 50s. She didn't do many films in the 50s but they were all interesting and still hold up today.

“Payment on Demand” is a very underrated film.

Kate made her share of stinkers in the 1950s and beyond.

Actually, R291, I love Desk Set. I didn't add it because I figured the Hepburn hater would find faut because it's not a classic (see R292), but it's amusing and Hepburn does a great drunk scene in it.

[quote] Kate made her share of stinkers in the 1950s and beyond.

Bette made more stinkers because she wasn't as discerning and wasn't offered the best material. Kate often was.

R236 I think Jeanette MacDonald and/or Irene Dunne.

I wouldn't say N. Richard Nash despised Lucille Ball - I have no idea - but he wrote Wildcat for a young actress. Probably one who was meant to be a good singer-dancer-musical performer. Lucille Ball took it over, since people were thrilled to get a big star like her, and the cash Desilu put in the show (I think).

Could Nash name a young actress on nthe stage who would have sold more tickets than Lucy?

Fuck Geraldine Page. Lousy teacher, smelled like a homeless crack addict, good, sometimes great, actress, but Irene Worth made me forget her when she did "Sweet Bird Of Youth" with Christopher Walken. That was a great performance!

I would not say fuck Geraldine Page, R298. But I would say Irene Worth was my favorite stage actor. She had genius.

R297 I have no idea. But Wildcat only ran 171 performances.

"Wildcat was on hiatus from 2/5/1961 through 2/19/1961 during Lucille Ball's illness. The production was to take a 9-week hiatus after June 3rd, 1961 and re-open August 7, 1961; however by June 8th, 1961, the re-opening had been canceled." sez IBDB

WILDCAT was just too much of a strenuous turn for Lucy, used to working in the movies and TV.

And it didn't help that she was 49-50 playing a part written for a young woman, was ill, had just gotten divorced, and had no experience doing a Broadway musical.

Lucy's voice wasn't raspy yet. I swear this show did it.

I met Ben Gazzara once.

The producer paid so much for the Saboteur script and Hitchcock’s services that he had little money left for actor salaries.

Novak is a blank and a cypher in “Vertigo” but the role called for that. Her normal vacuity was perfect for the part. Vera Miles had more technique. She might’ve found more depth in the role.

In that clip from Broadway: The Golden Age, Ben sounded monotone.

[quote] Based on Hall's singing in "You are Beautiful" on the original cast album of FLOWER DRUM SONG, she still had the goods for "Bali H'ai" in the late 1950s.

She doesn't get to sing it in the movie, though. They give the song only to James Shigeta.

Vera Miles was a Miss America runner up who moved to Hollywood and got some parts, then was put under contract by Hitchcock. I don't think she had much experience or technique.

[quote] Don't want to start a separate thread, but are the actors and actresses Sondheim absolutely loathed?

He was too circumspect to say. In his two books of lyrics that are the closest thing he wrote to an autobiography, he has very few negative things to say about any living people--and in those books, contrary to what people are saying on this thread, he seemed pretty more amused than annoyed when Streisand asked him to re-write lyrics for him. (Remember, he happily re-wrote the lyrics to "Send in the Clowns" for Krusty the Clown and Sideshow Mel because he was such a "Simpsons" fan).

I have wondered if he disliked Barbara Barrie, since his close friend Mary Rodgers just loathed her behavior backstage for 'Company" (very typically for Rogers, she lets us know she absolutely loathed Barrie but refuses to say why). But since the only person Rodgers despised more than Barrie was "that little cunt Arthur Laurents"--(although again she gives no reasons why she thought that, though I'm sure we all know ), it's a sign of her contempt for Barrie she calls her "the female Arthur Laurents"). Yet Sondheim was able to work for years profitably with Laurents, maybe Sondheim was fine with Barrie.

Barbara Barrie is still alive, so we could ask her.

When I read their names I always get Barbara Barrie and Barbara Harris mixed up, because they both worked in roughly the same period.

I’m familiar with Harris from NASHVILLE and FAMILY PLOT.

Only saw Barrie as Brooke Shields’ grandma on SUDDENLY SUSAN (I think)

r312: go ahead, hon.

R163 Actually, no.

R163 But Roman Holiday, Sabrina, and Love In The Afternoon were indeed variations on the same character.

[quote] Could Hepburn have played the leads in Niagara, Bus Stop, Gentlemen Prefer Blondes, or The Seven Year Itch?

Which Hepburn?

I would have loved to have seen Katharine Hepburn play all those roles.

I want to see a mature Bette Davis in BABY DOLL.

R317 She could have played the Don Wilson role in Niagara.

I worked with Barbara Barrie a couple of times in the late 1980s and found her lovely and very smart. She didn't suffer fools but she was not a rude or self-indulgent person.

Last fall I happened to be sitting near her at an awful play at Second Stage (I think it was called Camp Siegfried) and I could hear her muttering that she couldn't hear what the young actors were saying. Ten minutes later, she excused herself to everyone in her row as she exited the theatre (I think she was alone). I later came to wish I had followed her.

And no, I did not reintroduce myself.

R320 With Johnny Berchtold?

R286 But he kinda hated himself for doing it.

[quote]But since the only person Rodgers despised more than Barrie was "that little cunt Arthur Laurents"--(although again she gives no reasons why she thought that, though I'm sure we all know ), it's a sign of her contempt for Barrie she calls her "the female Arthur Laurents").

I seem to recall that Mary Rodgers in her book gave at least one very strong and specific reason for why she loathed Laurents, and it was because he behaved horribly towards her son, Adam Guettel. Am I misremembering?

I don't think there's any reason why Sondheim should hate himself for reworking some of his lyrics for Streisand. As much as I can't stand her attitude, her idea that he write new lyrics for a reprise of the bridge of the song was a good one, because it makes the song feel more complete when it's sung out of context rather than performed in the show, where there are some spoken lines from Fredrik during the song. And the other rewrites he did were specifically for Streisand and haven't worked their way into other people's performances of those songs.

........

"Everybody should marry a gay man at least once."

R325, I would like to see all of what Mary wrote before Jesse and the lawyers edited it after she died.

R14 only at first, Sean ending up growing own him (originally IF wanted David Niven as Bond, which is interesting considering we know him for mostly comedic films)

Bond films are unintentionally comedic.

R288 actually I find it believable. Tennessee never shat where he ate and was surprisingly professional when it came to his work.

Not unintentionally, R329.

(Johnny Berchtold was the male lead in Camp Siegfried)

R330, Perhaps Tennessee already had a young stud in his hotel room when Warren came a knockin’.

R330 perhaps, Tennessee loved young studs for sale, he just liked to keep it professional with his actors.

Didn't Tennessee like rough trade, not preppy pretty-boys?

I think Williams and Brando had a fling, did they not?

Larry L King who wrote the book for Best Little Whorehouse in Texas was critical of Alexis Smith being chosen to lead the road company of the show. He confided this to a journalist who promised him it was off the record. Of course the journalist published it and the cast scampered to make sure Alexis never saw a copy of the interview.

Larry L. King sounds like an idiot.

Burt Reynolds, who notoriously was an even bigger blabbermouth to the press than Larry L. King, referred to the latter when he made the film version of BEST LITTLE WHOREHOUSE as "Addison de Witt in cowboy boots."

Burt Reynolds sounds gay!

Barbara barrie is still alive after living with leukemia for God knows how many years. That can make you cranky. And if you've never seen her in "Breaking Away", shame on you. She and Paul Dooley MAKE that film.

She’s certainly accomplished more than I have, but Barrie seems like a workmanlike actress who never landed that signature role.

I thought her role in Breaking Away was her signature role.

Her film breakthrough came in 1964 with her performance as Julie in the landmark film One Potato, Two Potato, for which she won the Best Actress Award at the Cannes Film Festival. She is best known for her role as Evelyn Stohler in Breaking Away, which brought her an Academy Award nomination for Best Supporting Actress in 1979 and an Emmy Award nomination in 1981 when she reprised the role in the television series based on the film.

On television, Barrie is perhaps best known for her portrayal of the wife of the namesake captain in the detective sitcom Barney Miller between 1975 and 1978. She also is known for her extensive work in the theatre, receiving a Tony Award nomination for Best Featured Actress in a Musical in 1971 for originating the role of Sarah in Stephen Sondheim's Company.

Thanks, Wikipedia!

R337, When the Whorehouse national tour played Boston, legendary critic Elliot Norton said in his review that he thought Alexis Smith was too “ladylike” to play a madam.

Barbara Barrie ruins everything she's in!

Barrie would have been a better choice, perhaps.

^^ for the WHOREHOUSE tour

Streisand annoys the fuck out of me when she changes the lyrics of famous songs to make them about her.

Alexis during Whorehouse...

I can’t remember where I read it, but Sondheim had negative things to say about Mary Martin. I think he commented that she had a very tiny voice.

Merv was so excited about Alexis' dress. I'm sure he tried it on afterwards.

So Mary Martin used a megaphone when she sang in The Sound of Music?

Well, when Ethel and Elaine are your benchmarks, I’m sure Our Mary seemed to demure. Of the three she was the best combination of singer-actress-dancer. She would not have been right for any of Sondheim’s shows—she would have defeated his cynicism and misogyny.

No man who wrote the lyrics to Gypsy or Company is a misogynist, R355.

Mary Martin would have killed as Momma Rose. I wish she'd done it between Sound of Music and I Do! I Do!

R49 I feel sorry for you that you can’t enjoy A Tree Grows In Brooklyn, Panic In The Streets, A Streetcar Named Desire, On the Waterfront, East Of Eden, Wild River and Splendor In The Grass. At least you didn’t have to sit through any of Kazan’s Broadway hits.

Kazan was a cunt but he was also a great director. Christ people, can't a person be both?

R359 Was he Laurents level cunt?

What did Sondheim think of Stritch?

Sondheim loved Stritchie.

R359 Kazan was not a cunt. Some people just did not like his politics.

He named names. Because he was a cunt.

Not all the time, R362. Not when she was drunk and trying to record in a session for the cast album.

[italic]LINE ! !

It bugs me that Elaine Stritch was starting to be hailed as some premier interpreter of Sondheim in her final stage.

She introduced ONE Sondheim classic decades and decades ago, then croaked her way through others in various cabaret acts over the years.

I don’t think this makes someone a specialist.

I didn't know Lainie Kazan was hated!

R360 Unlike Laurents, people loved Kazan.

Well he was a great director and helped get actors to the core of their roles and supported them without being angry or mean.

Though what he did to Sinatra I'm surprised he lived to tell the tale.

R177 This has probably already been answered but Audrey was 30 or 31 when she made that film. She and Marilyn were 3 years apart in age.

Anyway, Marilyn was a mess at that point and she probably wouldn’t have gotten through the movie. I think an author should have the best idea of what a character he created should be like, though. I can easily see Marilyn in the part. She had the quality that suddenly makes you see Holly as a real person who is just the way she is.

R370 What did he do to Sinatra?

I had to look it up, and this is the first I've ever heard or read that Sinatra was originally eyed to play the Brando role in ON THE WATERFRONT, though I'm not sure how far that idea ever got. I think Sinatra was an excellent actor but, in my opinion, he would have been terribly miscast in that part, because first of all he was a little too old for it, and also he would have been completely unbelievable as a former prizefighter.

Similarly, Grace Kelly was the first choice for the Eva Marie Saint role in ON THE WATERFRONT.

I can’t really see it.

Who would have ever thought that Grace Kelly could play the bespectacled frump in THE COUNTRY GIRL? Yet she won an Oscar for it and the competition was tiff.

But Sinatra as a longshoreman? No. Just.....no.

Grace Kelly seems too cultured for the role of Georgie. It’s primarily her voice. The Oscar went to her because she was a huge star at the time with films at multiple studios… and she suddenly wore glasses onscreen.

r376 = Judy

But the point is, r376, Kelly was hugely successful in the role whether she was good or not. And if she was so awful she wouldn't have gotten a nomination, much less the Oscar.

So you're saying that EVERY Oscar nominee and winner was deserving?

r379, no, I think Judy should have won that year (of course!) but Grace's performance was admirable and she "stretched" herself which was noted by the voters. You have to view the win in context, but surely you know that.

Marilyn Monroe, Ava Gardner and Kim Novak were her contemporaries but no one ever gave them an Oscar for being huge stars (the reason you said Grace won).

[quote]r371 if she was so awful she wouldn't have gotten a nomination, much less the Oscar.

I don’t think she was awful.

The first choice was Jennifer Jones, who was preggers. She probably would have been worse.

The studio's second choice was Mary Wickes. She would have made a memorable Holly Golightly, throwing that cat right into the rain with all her strength!

I cannot bear Jennifer Jones in anything.

I like her in MADAM BOVARY and CARRIE.

R383, “The Towering Inferno”

I believe that Lucy was in conversations with TPTB about playing Holly and she really would have been a revelation. Sadly, she had too many other irons in the fire at that point and was unavailable for a lenghty film shoot.

Re The Country Girl, Grace Kelly won an Oscar and Uta Hagen won a Tony, leading me to think that it’s quite a role. I say this having seen neither the play nor the movie. Just a guess….

Having seen Christine Lahti's AWFUl performance in an off-Broadway production of The Country Girl, trust me, it's not a sure fire anything...

It wasn't sure fire for Frances McDormand either:

[quote]Ms. McDormand plays the long-suffering Georgie with the mannered briskness of a wisecracking heroine from a 1930s screwball comedy. I suppose it could be argued that this is Georgie’s defense system, but I rarely glimpsed the life-flattened woman underneath. NYT

R389, She’s too butch for that role.

Have you seen Faye in the TV version? Every thread inevitably comes back to Faye.

I WAS a country girl.

[quote]Sondheim loved Stritchie.

Naw, I think Sondheim found Stritch to be the boozy, monumental pain in the ass that everybody else did. Elaine was talented when she chose to be and was perhaps Sondheim's biggest fan in the world, so I imagine he tolerated her.

I loved Jones in THE SONG OF BERNADETTE.

Jennifer Jones was mealy-mouthed. She always looked and sounded like she was trying to eat a mouthful of chestnuts.

R386, that's not remotely funny, but thanks for trying.

Jennifer Jones is wonderful in light comedy--she's great in both Beat the Devil and Cluny Bown.

She always reminds me of Marion Davies, in that she was another beauty who excelled at comedy but who was forced by the powerful man who fell in love with her to play dramatic roles she really wasn't comfortable with.

She had an odd life--incredible wealth and privilege on one hand (she also married the zillionaire Norton Simon), and yet lots of personal sorrow in her family life.

Jennifer Jones did The Country Girl in the 60s in New York

Robin Strasser in Soap Opera Digest:

One of the biggest thrills in the life of Robin’’s mother came around this time. Robin had been hired for the final two weeks of the City Center production Country Girl, which starred Jennifer Jones. “”I think she’’s just a wonderful, gentle, sweet lady,”” reminisces Robin about Miss Jones. “”On that last night of the production I was leaving the theatre with my mother, and as we were walking down this large staircase at the City Center, Jennifer Jones came down the steps and shook my hand and said, “It’s been a pleasure to work with her. You’re a fine actress.” That immortalized her in my mother’s mind--she was immensely impressed by her.””

Jennifer had some difficult times.

R295. Irene Dunne was first pick for TV version of "I Remember Mama" She was afraid of live TV. Peggy Wood played the title role from 1949-1957.

R401, Irene had been in numerous Broadway productions, so she was accustomed to performing “live”.

Irene Dunne had already done the hit film of I Remember Mama and even got an Oscar nomination for it (her last).

As her friend Roz Russell would have said (on turning down Mame): "I don't dine on yesterday's hash!" Irene didn't need TV.

“Irene didn't need TV.“

By 1949 she did.

The fact that Roz could not sing the score for Mame, especially after the dubbing in “Gypsy” had nothing to do with it, I’m sure. Didn’t stop Lucille Ball.

Yesterday’s hash indeed. Yes, the book for Mame was inferior to the non-musical one, but it’s not as if “Auntie Mame@ itself is the Orestia.

Actually, I'm not sure if Roz's comment about the musical MAME was because she turned it down or because she wasn't offered it.

Roz Russell was talented but didn't know the limitations of her talents. She was a pig who played many roles she was wrong for, the most spectacular examples including her roles in MOURNING BECOMES ELECTRA and the film of GYPSY. Also, she sometimes overacted terribly in roles in which she might have been excellent if she had controlled herself, for example, Rosemary in PICNIC.

I'm in the minority that understand how the performance was appealing to Oscar voters. I actually thought she was quite good. And Grace from a different lens. She probably as an actor would have loved to play something different but her looks played against her like if she were a frumpy character actress wanting to be a lead. There were limited roles in the opposite directions because of her looks and elegant acting style.

Roz Russell did do the musical version of My Sister Eileen, though - she starred in the 40s film, then did Wonderful Town on the stage in the 50s (and a version for TV).

Roz was cast in the film after Hermione Gingold created the role on Broadway.

Before Gingold, Jo Van Fleet did it Off Broadway.

So that’s TWO stars the Lizard of Roz laid waste to, here.

Roz had a big flop with the film of A Majority of One which was a hit on Broadway starring Gertrude Berg. She should have stuck to playing nuns, not Jewish housewives.

Roz made a number of turkeys in the 1960s.

R412 She did get a rave review for it in the NY Times, though.

Roz's best performances were in the 1930s. If you really want to see what a fine actress she could be, you should see NIGHT MUST FALL, where she plays a repressed intelligent women attracted to a man who turns out to be a serial killer. It's a wonderful controlled performance.

She got so much praise for playing things broadly in THE WOMEN and HIS GIRL FRIDAY that overplaying became her stock in trade. it worked well for comedies like WONDERFUL TOWN and AUNTIE MAME (particularly on stage), but she became too over the top for dramatic or seriocomic parts (like Momma Rose).

Roz took chances, and sometimes they worked perfectly, and sometimes they didn't. She's great in The Women and His Girl Friday, and though over the top, she's grounded in reality. I like her in Gypsy too, even if they had to dub her. She's painfully OTT in Picnic, badly cast in A Majority of One, and pretty terrible in Mourning Becomes Electra, even with an Oscar Nomination. And if you ever get the chance, see Roughly Speaking. SHe and Jack Carson are briilliant together. But Auntie Mame is my favorite. It's like a high wire act, and it works, even though it's still in many ways a stage performance.

A favorite guilty pleasure.

Grace Kelly was a terrible actress--the worst of her day. She was her era's Ali MacGraw. She found her calling as a wooden princess.

I think that's really overkill, r418. She was quite good in REAR WINDOW and TO CATCH A THIEF. She just wasn't up to the demands of a heavy-duty role like Georgie in THE COUNTRY GIRL.

She was good at looking good as in "To Catch A Thief," R419. Other than that--DREADFUL.

Leo Genn had one of the most beautiful speaking voices during his time on this earth and in film and the stage. Didn't at all interfere with his acting ability. Should have cast in Marine in the Martin Gable role, who also had a beautiful voice but looked like an odious toad.

Grace Kelly wasn't the first slot machine to end up in Monte Carlo!

She's perfect in The Swan.

I'm assuming you saw the poster for the cast of Velvet Touch above.

When did I make “Marine”, R421?

It's a crime that Roz wasn't even nominated for Oscars for THE WOMEN (who the hell were the Supporting Actress nominees besides Olivia and Hattie that year?) and HIS GIRL FRIDAY. After the early precedent set by Claudette Colbert for a comedic win with IT HAPPENED ONE NIGHT (nowhere near as great as Roz later on) in 1934. it's perplexing that the next comedic win wasn't until Judy Holliday in 1950 with BORN YESTERDAY.

I love Roz in Picnic. I sometimes read on here that she was OTT. But people I know have raved to me about how great she was in that, so I know it’s not just me who loved her in it. I think a lot of us have known a schoolteacher exactly like that.

By the way, there’s a live performance of the “marry me” scene on Youtube - with Roz and Arthur O’Connell. From some special or show of the late 50s or 60s, I think.