Gay Men and Diva Worship

I love divas because my fickle ass mum was so unpredictable. Though my dad was constantly doing her wrong her pathology complicated things. Divas like Beyonce and Cher seem to always have it together and win. And the music is good. I don’t like all divas, just the ones who produce good music and aren’t train wrecks.

Divas are to gay men what super hero action stars are to straight men.

I haven't watched the YouTube essay yet. But I do think about this from time to time. When I was a child aged 5 to 8, I was very much interested in Cher, Bette Midler, Madonna, Bowie, Goldie Hawn, and Julie Brown (not a typical Diva, but I was a big fan). It just seems so strange to me that I would share this fandom with legions of gay men that I've never met nor imagined existed.

The only "diva" that Ive ever found interesting was peak Gaga. She utterly fascinated me. Still does a bit.

Beyond that it's been athletes, writers, actual musicians (one reason I started liking Gaga - she could actually play) and artists that I am drawn too. Men and women alike.

My cultural heroes as a teen were Kurt Cobain, Elliott Smith, Kim Gordon, Virginia Woolf, James Baldwin, Hemingway and other Parisian ex pat writers from the 20s, James Dean and Sylvia Plath.

Because they are FAGGOTS!!!!!!!!

I never understood it. I can recognise when someone is talented or charismatic, but I draw the line at guys who can talk about nothing else but their obsession. Read a book! Go places!

R4 Hoe please. Weren’t you fangurling over Gaga circa 2011. You have Ben to thank for teaching you how to butch it up over the years.

“The only "diva" that Ive ever found interesting was peak Gaga.”

You haven’t looked very hard then, dear.

They avoid worshipping men because they struggle to identify with masculine role models.

R8 All my favor actors, sans Glen Close, are men as well as my favorite athlete.

My favorite divas (in no particular order)

Cher Christina Aguilera Beyoncé Janet Jackson J.Lo Mariah Carey

💅

Wrong, R8. Are you a gay man?

OP is here promoting his own videos. Like Matt Cullen does. No thank you.

They all seem to be having fun. And they answer to no one.

Its pretty accurate for a lot of gay men, but he said in 25 minutes what could have been said in ten

I have no idea, because I started to like them a couple of years before I even knew I was gay, I was still a child when I started to love their music.

With that said, perhaps there's a bit of misogyny behind the fact that straight men all seem to loathe them.

They think women are meant for fucking and having babies, on a subconscious level, and therefore can't see anything beyond that. That's why some 95% of Pop divas' fans are gay men and (str8/bi/gay) women.

R15 Many straight bros will jam out to Taylor Swift and Queen Bey songs, especially those who listen to top 40 for the former and black guys for the later. They just won’t claim them amongst their favorite artists. That’s probably where the misogyny kicks in.

A lot of gay men suffer from arrested development. They fight like teen girls.

[quote] Many straight bros will jam out to Taylor Swift and Queen Bey songs

Gay ones will. Sorry, but those two are not high on any heterosexual males listening list.

[quote] They avoid worshipping men because they struggle to identify with masculine role models.

Gay men worship men more than anyone else. What you mean is identify with them. Those are two different things.

I dislike most, possibly all, divas.

R18 Bruh I have friends and I’m under 40. How old are you?

I actually find most of them unrelatable.

Yeah, some straight men back in the 1990s and 80s liked a feel Madonna songs, but it doesn't mean they bought her albums or that they were fans.

Same with Taylor Swift.

The only "diva" I've really ever had a thing for is Courtney Love, and I'm not even sure if she qualifies as such. That's the only female celebrity figure I've ever come close to being a "diva worshipper' of. I've always appreciated her boldness and the raw nature of her music (especially the early stuff). She is feminine but also has a fuck-it-all masculine streak in her that you rarely see in women.

R24 Madge ethered this loser bitch. She had ONE good song with Hole.

The answer I think is fairly straightforward.

Women have a psychosexual reaction to a man singing to them. Almost all of them do.

Straight men do not have a psychosexual reaction to a woman singing to them. It’s one thing if the woman is beautiful and wearing sexy clothes and performing provocatively like Britney Spears, but the actual act of singing does not appear to affect them much.

When gay men are created in utero, it’s generally agreed that some aspects of transgenderism happen to the brain which would explain effeminacy, interest in playing with dolls as children and in women’s fashion growing up, etc etc

I believe the mechanism that makes straight women psychosexually captivated by a man singing to them is replicated in the brain development of gay men. I think singing appeals in part because of its Freudian nature (person with a microphone or a big guitar in front of his pelvis, hello; the drums aren’t phallic so no one wants to date the drummer) but also in its nature of bridging a gap between sexes. Women are so psychosexually captivated by singing that they turned four pleasant but not remarkable looking blokes from Liverpool into living gods.

Gay men have inherited this mechanism, however, because gay men do not actually desire the opposite sex; they take singing, with its power of bridging the gap between the opposite sexes, and reinterpret it into something else: the diva. The diva becomes the embodiment of this idealized fantasy, just as straight women did with Frank Sinatra or Elvis or The Beatles or Stones or Bowie or N Sync or Harry Styles. The diva is a kind of liberator of interior feelings of effeminacy which society suppresses. She is sexual but in a cartoonish, camp way (Dolly Parton, Cher, Donna Summer, Debbie Harry - I remember one of the drag queens on Drag Race told Debbie Harry when she was a guest that having her poster in their room made other people think he was straight). It is an acknowledgment of the absurdity of the singing-as-sex surrogacy while a testimonial to its power.

See this is Freud

R26 Bro I know I will be derided. Your post will be derided. But I think not only is that one of the most profound arguments written in some time on this site but also you hit it on the fkin nail.

Freud

FREUD FREUD FREUD FREUD FREUD

Is that Glenn Close in the center?

[quote] Bruh I have friends

You’re not fooling anyone, bruh.

Freud (long hair on women is a Freudian development, look it up)

ABBA would have never taken off with gay men if these two had Streisand perms

[quote] When gay men are created in utero, it’s generally agreed that some aspects of transgenderism happen to the brain

No it’s not, and your essay is complete bullshit.

Freud

And speaking of Streisand

FREUD

South Park actually very well articulated the psychosexual Freudian nature of women and male singers

And who is in the audience with the girls? Mr. Slave! “Jethuth Chrith!”

R3 could you please clarify if by “Hemingway” you mean Margaux or Mariel.

Thanks!

It's a long video - it starts off rather standard and obvious - but then he goes into some interesting points.

Men aren't taught to express themselves - don't stand out, don't overdress, etc. - and divas are the exact opposite of that.

Plus some of the divas express their vulnerabilities and how they felt they never fit in.

Men (straight men) don't really talk about that - ever. It's this facade they put up - but also maybe because society doesn't want to hear any complaining among men.

Interesting take - a bit long-winded and he could have edited it down 50%.

Growing up, I became huge fans of male singers in equal quantity as I loved female singers. I guess I figured out I might be gay in Jr. HS.

The theory at R26 doesn't make much sense after the interesting idea that male fetuses attain their cathexis for singing from their mothers, not their fathers. That could explain my cathexis with MALE singers, for example.

All R26's hokuspokus about why women singers turn into divas doesn't seem clear, nor to gel with his first theory. Why woman singers? Their mothers would have cathexis for MALE singers. So would a gay child. And what does turning woman singers into DIVAS have to do with any of this inherited trait.

On that note, an interesting look is the throwback critic Wayne Koestenbaum in The Queen's Throat: Opera, Homosexuality, and the Mystery of Desire.

Ok maybe, I could maybe see the appeal of Kristine W because only gays know of her.

Most gay men don't have access to have children and become bitter because of that. We find solace in powerful women beating the odds and giving the finger to society.

R26 I think women like men singing to them because the "man (singer)" is giving them (the women listener) his undivided attention for three minutes. This isn't always the case in many hetero relationships. Add to that the man/singer is being both vulnerable and strong as he does this.

It's like having three minutes of the perfect man, with a few chords thrown in. Doesn't hurt that if it's a love song, he's also singing about how much he adores/worships the women.

Men don't have that need from women. Women already give them attention. So that's why straight men don't react the same way to women singers.

Gay men are on a totally different plane. Many just like brash, messy, sexy, slutty, artsy women because it's fun. (And for once it's not all about getting laid.)

That said, I do like your theory.

R40 = idiot

“The theory at [R26] doesn't make much sense after the interesting idea that male fetuses attain their cathexis for singing from their mothers, not their fathers. That could explain my cathexis with MALE singers, for example.”

I DONE TOLD YOU

Sigmund Freud does not care about your cathexis. Sigmund Freud wants to explain why Bowen Yang says Dua Lipa makes his penis smile! (Hint: she’s standing on them and they go up to her neck.)

THE APPEAL OF SINGING IS ABOUT THE FREUDIAN EXCHANGE OF POWER BETWEEN GENDERS, WHIGH SOMEHOW AFFECTS WOMEN AND GAY MEN THE SAME WAY. The exchange of phallus into vagina that occurs in the male singer to female listener variant occurs exactly the same way in female singer to gay male variant. That is why successful divas have phallic surrogates: Donna Summer’s arms. Madonna’s pointy bra. Cher’s cannon-laden battleship. Frida and Agnetha’s long shiny hair. Janet’s military uniform. Barbra Streisand’s nose. Stevie Nicks’s hats. Cyndi Lauper’s jewelry. Lady Gaga’s meat dress. Dua Lipa’s legs.

[quote]When gay men are created in utero, it’s generally agreed that some aspects of transgenderism happen to the brain which would explain effeminacy, interest in playing with dolls as children and in women’s fashion growing up, etc etc

R26 I do think there is something to that, and it fits in with what we know about the biological origins of sexual orientation. That said it doesnt apply to all gay men, I never had any of those interests and have no particular interest in divas now or in the past. My first ex (who was quite effeminate) was a huge Madonna stan, if I never hear the Vogue again I will be happy

[quote]Most gay men don't have access to have children and become bitter because of that. We find solace in powerful women beating the odds and giving the finger to society.

R42 I LIKE not having access to children, I think of it as a blessing, one of the upsides of being gay. I'm not bitter but grateful (and relieved)

It’s not that hard to understand, y’all!

Whispy little sissymaries would die for me, y’all!

R44 Fort/da to you, too.

Who the hell wears elbow gloves anymore? I knew what I was doing.

“Men don't have that need from women. Women already give them attention. So that's why straight men don't react the same way to women singers.”

Men don’t need attention from women? ADAM DOOMED HUMANITY BECAUSE HE WANTED THE APPROVAL OF EVE, who was tricked by a talking phallus!

THE TROJANS WENT TO WAR BECAUSE A MAN WANTED ATTENTION FROM A WOMAN and laid the foundation Western Civilization! And Troy was defeated by a giant wooden phallus penetrating the walls and ejaculating Greeks!

That fucking new pride flag. I fucking hate it.

From the time I was very young, like Junior High, I always gravitated to divas who expressed romantic feelings that I couldn't -- vulnerability, weakness, insecurity, fear, etc. And the louder the better -- Whitney, Aretha, Streisand, Bassey, Liza, Chaka, Donna, Bette, Patti, Ronstadt, etc. As I matured I also began to enjoy the girls who knew how to present visually with beauty and assurance -- ONJ, Ross, Grace Jones, Madonna, Janet.

It's always seemed pretty simple and straightforward to me. Only recently have I questioned being part of a gay phenomena, like r2. It's one of the reasons I was so awestruck by Beyonce's Renaissance Show. As a kid, I could never have fathomed being surrounded by a stadium of openly gay guys -- across the spectrum from straight-appearing to outrageously flamboyant -- and being affirmed and celebrated by the diva. I thought it was just me, but it is a whole bunch of us.

"Men don't have that need from women. Women already give them attention. So that's why straight men don't react the same way to women singers."

LOL, most straight men do not get lots of attention from women. Why do you think there are so many incels out there?

Gurrrllll you spoke! R26

👍🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

You know how bitchy fags can be.

R41 I literally never heard of Kristine W until there was a recent thread about her on here. Quit trying to make Kristine W happen.

No offense, but she's obscure as hell.

Never understood it and took diva worship as a sign of someone to avoid.

To have s favorite performer or singer is fine, but it should take a second to name two or three, not a split second to start gushing hysterically about one diva. It's that distinction that turns me away from the latter.

R51 Question. Who is "Patti" in this litany? I can only think of Patti Smith but that doesn't seem to fit in with your middle-of-the-road aesthetic.

[quote] No offense, but she's obscure as hell.

I am not r41 but Kristine W is not at all obscure to the generation of gay man that came of age in the late 90s/early 00s. She was the QUEEN of gay clubland especially on the west coast. She set a record for most No.1 songs on the Billboard dance chart and that was due to her colossal appeal to the gay clubgoers.

[quote] [R51] Question. Who is "Patti" in this litany? I can only think of Patti Smith but that doesn't seem to fit in with your middle-of-the-road aesthetic.

Patti LABELLE.

r57, I wish there was a way for me slap you in your face virtually.

R58 Okay but I still never heard of her.

R59 Of course. I should have guessed. Mid as fuck.

[quote] [R58] Okay but I still never heard of her.

You can still be a responsible gay and show some respect to your gay brethren. She was an affirming presence to gay men who looked for joy and camaraderie while in the thick of the AIDS crisis. Look her up on Wikipedia and check her out on Youtube...and don't ever again tell anyone that you've never heard of Kristine W.

R62 ibid

[quote] [R59] Of course. I should have guessed. Mid as fuck.

Pre-teen gay guys living in the 80s had enough trauma and dysfunction without listening to Patti Smith croaking. "Mid" was pretty fucking awesome.

Dataloung is increasingly animated by sheltered timid gays who have never heard of anyone or anything, done anything, tried anything, tasted anything, fucked anything, thought anything, beyond their own navels in their tiny little existence.

R65 or maybe we’re just not five-thousand years old with incredibly niche interests in some nobody from 1997. I say this respectfully.

[quote] [R65] or maybe we’re just not five-thousand years old with incredibly niche interests in some nobody from 1997. I say this respectfully.

Well, gurl, that's the great thing about books. It's not necessary to live through certain times to learn about them. A nobody is just a somebody you've yet to discover. Reading is fundamental.

R67 Oh gosh, I had no idea. Please recommend the definitive tome on Kristine W and I will sashay down to my local library and check it out tomorrow. I yearn to be as cultured as you are.

[quote] I am not [R41] but Kristine W is not at all obscure to the generation of gay man that came of age in the late 90s/early 00s.

This is my age group and I have no idea who tf she is.

I think for the purposes of this thread we should limit the use of diva to someone who was actually famous.

That being said, her videos are filled with pseudophalluss.

Takeway: Kristine W was not in rotation at the gay bars of Kansas City

I grant that she was just another in a long line of gay club divas, however. But I certainly knew her.

Mariah is a great diva

Mariah sued her former billionaire fiancee for wasting her time and won $50million!

Maybe Kristen W would have become more famous if she had chosen a better stage name than Kristen W. We remember Kylie Minogue for a reason.

It reminds me of the episode of Kimmy Schmidt where Titus asks to meet Linda from HR and they bring him to meet all the women from HR who are named Linda and they refer to themselves as Linda P, Linda F, etc.

That being said, I don’t know her but I have such affection for the soul and synthpop influenced dance of the early 90s. Remember LaTour? Basic Instinct?

This was when the 90s embraced a kind of futurism before grunge and gangsta rap ushered in fin di siecle anxiety.

Is La Streep considered a diva (in the true sense of the word)?

Streep, yes, not in the Freudian phallic sense like singing divas, but in the Freudian Oedipal sense. The affection of gay men for older actresses is entirely Oedipal.

Remember Amber? Emerges from the water dressed as a phallus.

Where’s the phallus? She’s riding in it!

LOOK AT THE SET BEHIND HER!

It’s a penis and testicles!

Zoom in from space past a flying phallus, as three phalluses emerge from the ocean

The refrain is a phallus!

She literally is singing about being an ejaculating phallus!

The fluttering shawl, a sapphic symbol, gets tightly wrapped around her once she starts singing, and combined with her helmet-like hair, turn her into a phallus

Freud was full of shit. A pedantic, humorless, hack. Jungian theory might say that Divas are analogous to "Goddesses" (the original meaning of the word) and have replaced religion in our culture, fulfilling our need to have something to worship and project ideals onto. These women represent authority and power, a larger-than-life Mother (Goddess) figure.

And yet the imagery of these Earth Mothers is not sapphic, like this:

Why is a trans flag superimposed on an article about gay men?

Instead, it looks like this.

Why?

Worship? That’s hyperbole. Simply, gay men have the capacity to admire and idolize women. For the most part straight men idolize male entertainers, athletes and perhaps statesmen. Straight men rare idolize women, or at least admit to it. I think all the blather about identification etc is mostly blather.

But why a woman who sings a song?

And gay men hate women in positions of power just as much as straight men.

Did you ever wonder why this cutaway scene from Express Yourself was included? Very striking, but it has no relevance to the rest of the video.

Except it establishes a human phallus who is watching intrigued as three men fellate phalluses while trapped inside a glass phallus

In short, this upperclass fellow who is Madonna’s husband or captor, is a homosexual.

People, people....stop!

👏 YOU'RE 👏 ALL 👏 DIVA 👏 WORSHIPPING 👏 PUNY 👏 COCKLETED 👏 FAGS

But is Express Yourself homophobic? No, because Madonna has established her character explicitly as a phallic woman, the idealized fantasy of the diva who unites the two sexes - the movie Metropolis was about a woman who disrupts society to unite the two classes; Express Yourself is about a woman who wants to unite the two sexes.

Look at this shot! Do you know how hard it is to get a cat to walk like this on command? The pussy cat, the literal slang for vagina, has grown a phallus! And the next scene is Madonna coming out in a men’s outfit and making aggressive thrusting motions with her arms.

Express Yourself further subverts Metropolis by recasting the role of “Maria” with a proletarian he-man with a phallus beacon attached to his head.

[quote] 👏 YOU'RE 👏 ALL 👏 DIVA 👏 WORSHIPPING 👏 PUNY 👏 COCKLETED 👏 FAGS

Matt, you need to ask your therapist about why you punctuate each word with a dramatic handclap, because that seems like something only a faggot would do.

[quote] Worship? That’s hyperbole. Simply, gay men have the capacity to admire and idolize women. For the most part straight men idolize male entertainers, athletes and perhaps statesmen. Straight men rare idolize women, or at least admit to it. I think all the blather about identification etc is mostly blather.

I'd like to know the psychology behind straight guys idolizing other men who hit, dribble, throw and chase a ball. The worship and idolatry of athletes is encouraged in straight youth, but anything a "sissy" enjoys is considered less than.

I am done with this thread because many are using it as a sad excuse to post links to their idols.

R94, putting way more thought into the meaning of that video than Madge did.

Madge's input; "that looks cool, more hot guys please...to umm...like.....smash the patriarchy"

R98 precisely. You can find all sorts of hidden meaning where no deeper thought existed.

Never have I ever, and I've never understood this diva worship. My husband has the same outlook.

Diva worship has gotta be the cringiest thing about gay culture, and that is a very crowded field.

R101 I thought it was the cockrings, and frosted tips. Yesterday it was those.

R90 I don’t. The best bosses I’ve had in life have always been lipstick lesbians.

R26 now I understand why I have always been attracted to male guitar players…

I think gay men are drawn to divas because they are beautiful and feminine but exude masculinity and power. They are allowed to express both masculinity/femininity in ways that regular people (especially gay men) are not allowed to express in everyday life.

This applies to not only divas but movie stars (Joan Crawford comes to mind) or camp icons like Elvira.

Love her R77, I'm watching Silkwood. She's the best.

Does anyone besides Howard Stern worship Tan Mom?

R106,

I'm obsessed with Tan Mom. She is the train wreck gift that keeps on giving....