The Gilded Age Season 2 Premiere: "You Don't Even like Opera," 10/29/23

I want to follow the further escapades of Oscar van Rijn (I forget the actor's name but it should be Roger Reese Jr.)

I like the costumes and all that flashy opulence. Are they going to sell Gladys to a British title? Oscar has the right family connections but I don't think he'll pass muster with George and Bertha. Oscar's boyfriend, Something Adams, is pretty and dull and the character became somewhat problematic. I hope Oscar finds a new, more charismatic boy.

The Raikes lines were comic.

Oscar got beaten up by rough trade!

p.s. Am I the only one who had never seen or heard of Carrie Coon before this show?

Is Meryl a producer on this or she promised Julian Fellowes something or what? Every once in a while I catch M's face or voice or an inflection coming out of "Marian's" face and it's unnerving. Shows how good M herself is at her job. Lesser actresses, even close relations, can't just pull a bunch of tics and tricks and physical similarities and get Meryl.

She's not even a very good imitation of Meryl. She's not a very good actress and she's all wrong for the part. Why can't celebrity children be doctors, lawyers, professors or veterinarians or whatever? Anything but acting/rock-starring/bad-writing etc.

^^^^ R1

Nathan Lane is berserkly over-the-top. He's like Foghorn Leghorn.

[R6] I was just about to say the same thing. It's ridiculous.

Donna Murphy is terrific as Mrs. Astor. She's kind and gracious, but also snobbish. Her new prickly relationship with Bertha is really fascinating.

I liked the scene between Bertha and Astor.

And unpopular opinion, I have no problem with Meryl Jr. I think she's quite likeable.

The Meryl spawn is hardly an embarrassment. She's fine and, frankly, it's not a very exciting role.

She was an embarrassment last season, but that was because then her part was the most central. (since we were introduced to this world through her). Supposedly she will be less central this season.

Music to my ears, R11. I'd watch it for the costumes and glamour anyway but less Marian will be lovely.

She was fine.

I like the writing and direction so far. The touch is lighter.

Woah, Oscar is moving fast.

Let’s not forgot the real star of this show - Pumpkin.

The Streep spawn doesn't have much to do and doesn't do much with it. Cynthia Nixon is even worse than last year and she can't maintain the same accent.

Hopefully, Oscar's pursuit of the homely daughter will be entertaining.

Good start. There's nothing to it, but it's quite good fun.

Honestly, we're like two sides in the opera wars already. I find Nixon and Streeplet absolutely fine... Nixon plays Aunt Pittypat with a bit of humanity and Streeplet is playing a young woman kicking as realistically at the tyraces as can be, given her lot in life. If we were being honest, a good chunk of DL's carrying on is because of who her mother is.

I really like Adelheid. She and Mrs. Bauer (the Van Rhijn cook) and Bannister (the Van Rhijn butler) are the only interesting servants.

The other Russell servants are pretty dull, even though they're all in real life luminaries of the New York stage. But it's not their fault--they're just written to be boring.

[quote] and Streeplet is playing a young woman kicking as realistically at the tyraces as can be,

What does this mean???

The costumes are over the top and not in a good way. Does the costume designer have any idea of what the 1880s looked like? It's all worse than last season, excess to excessive amounts.

Mrs. Astor is a wonderful cunt.

Ah, but r21 you did not define what "kicking over the tyraces" mean.

And that was the actual phrase you used at r18.

Well, R24, I hope it won't haunt you til you die. And fuck off, you old fuss.

I'm glad they finished off Peggy's misplaced baby plot, it was boring, Peggy & her family need a more interesting story line, you rarely hear about the lives of well-to-do Black people from the Victorian era, it shouldn't be wasted on insipid plot devices. I also hope we see more about life for the Gays in the 1800's. Yes, I know this just a fussy soap opera, but, I enjoyed it.

Also starring Robert Sean Leonard as the preacher with a hard on for Cynthia Nixon.

Oh how the mighty have fallen!

The black family stuff was pretty boring and on the nose. Actually, we were playing "count the Tonys," and there sure are plenty of them. Poor Audra's stuff is unworthy of a 6 time Tony winner. The opera wars plot is the most fun. And I guess I'm getting used to Carrie Coon in this. She's not as bad as last season.

R22 Bertha Russell's black and white ensemble was magnificent. I love the costume designer.

Carrie Coon is as bad as last season and there is no chemistry with Morgan Spector (just like last year)---they don't seem to come across as a team.

I find Spector the weaker link in the pairing with Coon. He's kind of fey. Doesn't feel like a humanity crushing robber baron to me.

She teaches watercolor to children? I never. She may as well have wiped her wet vagina on my face.

I think that Coon's performance is pretty awful, but oddly watchable because it's just so weird.

I like Louisa in this show. That light blue silk outfit with the brown trim was fabulous.

Carrie's white with the roses was great.

As was her white and navy in Newport.

The father who had come down in the world--have we met him before?

More of the homosex.

I will predict now that the Nephew and his daughter will become "close" to Louisa's character, since they're "not quite cousins" and his daughter already likes her as a teacher. Problem is that he might be broke. I will project that Oscar the Homosexual Nephew, is going to not get married to the Russell girl. She already loathes him and laughs at him with her pal the Astor girl. Oscar's gonna get caught en flagrante and will commit suicide. His denouement will be painful to watch. The Russell boy, the architect, is sweet on the Van Rijn's ward, too. So that's going to be a problem. The solution to the Met vs the Academy is that Academy members are going to get boxes at both opera houses. I really enjoy the social politics behind historical NYC developments. I should read more books about the era..

New Yorkers, are you disappointed that most of the mansions on Fifth Avenue were torn down?

I have a feeling they'll rip off the Harry Lehr story in part for Oscar. But he's not quite malicious even as written. I think this astonishing plot twist written about has to do with Oscar but only because what other character could cause shockwaves? Turner, the bitchy ex-mad to Bertha is back, but she's servant class, they could limit and crush her.

Does anyone happen to know if that was an actual opera singer and not a dubbed actress at the end? It was the one moment in the episode I thought was cleverly written and staged (though I saw it coming early on).

I see the cook Mrs. Bauer still has her Irish/Slovenian accent even though she’s supposed to be German. Shame on that dialect coach.

Robert Sean Leonard as the new rector of St. Thomas’? Uggh. He’s a charter member of the FLC (Fucking Lucky Club) going back from The Dead Poet’s Society. Always so frigging earnest and dull. I suspect the rector will court Ada and then mercifully croak from TB or something.

Hel-LO, Dashiell. Mr. Fane countinues to look positively yummy. That Aurora is one lucky bitch.

Carrie Coon is just so miscast. She’s been phenomenal on other things like The Leftovers but she just doesn’t have the goods to soubd credible for this particular period of history.

This really should have been a limited series on Netflix with Julianne Moore as Bertha.

The actor playing Baranski's son looks like he had a really rough year in between filming season 1 and 2.

Julianne Moore has better sense than to get involved in this trashy series.

Seriously.

This was a fun episode. The appearance of Christine Nilsson singing from "Faust" at the end was a great shout-out to "the Age of Innocence," which begins in its first sentence with Nilsson singing from the same opera (but at the Academy of Music).

It was very well written, because Bertha's maneuvers were exactly in keeping with her character, but as often happens she outfoxed herself: even if Mrs. Astor dared not lave the dinner, she will not forgive being tricked on the opera issue for a good long while. I liked, though, how delighted Mrs. Fish was at the whole sneaky maneuver.

It's interesting to realize that Oscar will likely never win Gladys, but his cousin Marian would be considered entirely suitable for Gladys's brother Larry. Gladys as an heiress is expected to marry far up in the world, like the other "dollar princesses" (which is why her mother will target her later this season, according to reports, for an English duke). But Larry is not expected to marry up: only eminently respectably (so Marian would be perfect by his parents' lights, if not by Agnes's). It's weird watching the show knowing it's inevitable he will end up with Marian (but that's Julian Fellowes's fault as a plotter--everyone watching the first two seasons of "Downton Abbey" knew Lady Mary would inevitably end up with Cousin Matthew).

I also liked the subplot of Oscar being beaten up by rough trade and realizing it was time to marry. That is very much in line with the way gay society types in that period behaved. I'm also glad the Adams heir is still around, since he's hot, and an interesting character.

I wish Peggy and her family were not so self-aware of their feelings and their problems with one another. That's the one thing in the show that seems like weak writing. It's as if they've all been through years and years of therapy. But I do like very much the idea of seeing how the black upper class in NYC and Philadelphia lived.

R44 I think they aged him a bit to make him look weary. He seemed deflated in the premiere. Not his usual cocky self. Maybe the idea for BErtha is to make her seem crass and crude and a real climber. Pushy, conniving. If so, Carrie Coons delivers. But her delivery is stiff and mechanical. It's not polished. So in a way, she is delivering for the character. But I think someone else could have done it better. She is much too brittle with her husband to ever convince me he is in love with her.

Amanda Peet was the original choice for Bertha. I'll take Coons.

Was Mrs. Astor wearing a tiara, too? Like the other ladies at the party?

R3 Could have just been a savvy mugger. Unclear whether he got a blowie prior to the beating…or it went straight to the beating.

R9 R10 and apparently, blondes have more fun. Her hair is quite different this season.

R31 Morgan Spector was perfect in The Plot Against America, however he is an anachronism in this Gilded Age role…that being said, I need him to undress for a long, languorous, soapless bath in a future episode.

R46 I think Mrs. Astor is a great characterization because she is always recalculating. As far as the performance, I’m sure many of the old guard (who were not there) will gossip and say it was tacky to have a live performance immediately after a dinner…like something the Irish would do! But of course it was delightful and new and kept everyone’s attention.

I wonder if Jeanne Tripplehorn will be back.

[quote] Was Mrs. Astor wearing a tiara, too? Like the other ladies at the party?

Yes, because society women wore tiaras to the opera back then, and the dinner party was meant for opera lovers. (There were few other appropriate occasions for those women to wear their tiaras, but they all had them--for one thing, because they went to the opera so often.)

The costumes are gorgeous. Far better than Downtown Abbey. Those were pretty boring for the most part.

[quote] p.s. Am I the only one who had never seen or heard of Carrie Coon before this show?

She was best known as a stage actress before this--she garnered very high praise for her performance as Honey in Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? (first at Steppenwolf, then in DC, then on Broadway). She also received Emmy nominations for her performances in The Leftovers and the third season of Fargo.

Her performance as Bertha is certainly odd, because she's paying the role deliberately with very low affect to show how single-minded and ruthless Bertha is. (In today's paralnce, we would certainly say Bertha is on the spectrum.) This needs to pay off when Bertha has a major breakdown and completely loses it, but we've seen very few instances of this so far. I hope this season we get more payoff, where she's either frustrated by Gladys's refusal to do as she bids or by Mrs. Astor's machinations.

Favorite line tonight was Oscar to Gladys: "You're independent minded, when you're allowed to be..."

The Opera wars seem tedious because we know where this i headed and mostly provides an excuse for more yard-good wasting dresses.

The "not quite cousin" thing couldn't be more obvious in terms of a plot that will drag on.

Baranski's tirade suggests to me that they don't know what to do with her character. I'm surprised she didn't banish the niece to some awful relative in the provinces, but then we'd lose all manner of romantic intrigue.

The black family's ordeal resolves that plot line but also suggests the writers don't know what to do with them, either.

There are too many characters---the servants really aren't interesting and if the Russells had been better cast may be they could have been the focal point with Mrs. Astor and her friends taking the place of the van Rijhns. At some point, Nixon is going to have to find a voice to use consistently or maybe she'll be severely injured in a carriage accident.

Fellowes is so unoriginal a writer, I wonder when we'll see traditional soap opera tropes like amnesia (Nixon will forget she's a spinster or Oscar will forget Adams leading to heartbreak that will force the guy playing Adams to actually act), evil twins (Branaski's long lost cousin, a brothel owner in Philly), and a murder trial (please let it be one of the Russells, they don't work as a couple).

Baranski has nothing to play but to be against everything, even embroidery and water color teaching, much like modern day Republicans.

Donna Murphy is a treasure. Not sure if this has ever been mentioned but Baranski and Simon Jones played husband and wife and Nixon was their daughter in The Real Thing back in the 80s. Fun seeing them reunited here.

R59 is absolutely correct. Having so many characters is exhausting. Now we have to care about that one couple who’s plotting to kill (?) the woman’s father AND the Russell’s son wasting his twink perfection on some hag. Sigh. Just give me restrained panic over social improprieties, followed by a clever solution, then call it a day.

I'd be more interested if Oscar was trying to woo Larry.

[quote]I wonder if Jeanne Tripplehorn will be back.

If you know about Harry Lehr, I thought for comedic effect they should hitch up Tripplehorn's character with Oscar... only in this instance the two of them are fully aware of Oscar's particular requirements for a happy marriage... they could have been like the Thenardiers in Les Mis... some comic relief and a full time aggravation to Agnes... the daughter in law who won't take her shit. You know Fellowes will rip off the Lehr story and Oscar's the best candidate.

Last night there was some poignancy to Oscar's story but it won't/can't last because Fellowes is only occasionally a good writer and for the most part is just a plodding, predictable writer. The actor really aged out since they shot S2 and in the intervening - what? - year the show sat in the can? So odd the thing just sat on the shelf. Max is such a dollar driven organization now... I feel like this season is the end of it on a purely financial basis. Very expensive to produce. The clothes are insane.

[quote]AND the Russell’s son wasting his twink perfection on some hag.

Fuck you, 62. I'm 36.

Well, if it's good enough for Mrs. Michael Douglas.

Photos from episode 2.

If nothing else, cast of thousands notwithstanding, it seems to be chugging right along.

They need lighter material outside of the fake French chef gag. They wore that out in like 15 secs. Make Bertha gain weight and have to let out her dresses, or give Agnes gas or something.

R64, surprising that it’s so expensive to produce (I’m not doubting you), given that 90% of the show seems to be CGI. I wasn’t even sure that the church scenes weren’t filmed in front of green screen.

Have Nixon’s teeth always been so gray, tiny, and deformed? Or is that a set of spinster dentures they ordered up from wardrobe?

R69... I'm just thinking the location shoots and the costumes. It's gotta be an expensive show to produce, especially when they seem to drag even the most minor characters on location shoots.

So Marion is going to be set up with the "almost" cousin? Why the long intro with the priest? Will he be a love interest for Nixon's character?

The Aardvark is a bit better looking this season but the hairstyles of the era do not flatter her. I've noticed mama doesn't allow cleavage on her.

Who's the Aardvark?

Is Baranski in it this year? She really paints on the old world aristocratic snobbiness but has no talent for it. Total college level.

Gladys R73.

Totally agree r26. I know Julian Fellowes is a lazy bitch and probably doesn't want to try too hard on this, but hopefully somebody around him does and wants to try to tell the neglected story of Northern blacks in the late 19th century. And yes, glad they didn't pursue this lost baby thing and we don't just have some tiresome shit about the trauma of an unwed mother and oh, no Daddy was mean to take my baby.

Really wish she could get back to that newspaper and stop dicking around with stale family drama.

I hope he doesn't have a NY Anna and Bates type storyline. That was fucking tedious after awhile.

I hope we don't have a character who gets arrested or falsely accused of something every ten seconds like Mr. Bates

What about all that nonsense of the rich bitch noticing her estranged father serving at the Russell dinner? As the dad was cool about it and clearly not going to give anything away you'd think she'd had a toad dropped down her cleavage the way she was behaving. Plus that "plot" such as it is, is now into S2 with no pay off. We don't know either character enough to care about them.

Does the "French" chef still speak with a French accent when with the Upstairs gentry? Who knows, as Julian hasn't thought to make that a funny little bit.

Why was chubby Mrs. Fish not allowed to show any decolletage at the dinner? There were rules for evening dress back then, especially among the elite. Same for Gladys, wo has by now had her coming out and should be dressing like a lady, not a child.

R69 The church scenes (interior and exterior) were filmed at churches in Albany and Troy, NY.

R52, I disagree about Spector in The Plot Against America. That role needed a better actor, someone like Liev Schreiber.

Did I miss something from last season? Why is the bald servant's daughter and husband so freaked out about him? God knows the length between seasons was ridiculous.

Am I alone in thinking the script feels like it was written in a different language and then translated via AI? It's horrible! And it's not helped much by the theatrical performances by Broadway actors who seem to be working for the last row in the theater scene after scene.

I really want there to be an excuse for twinky footman Jack to be naked.

Insanely nitpicky point:

They should NOT have included the claim in the dialogue that the Russells' recently purchased Newport summer home had been built twenty years (i.e. in the 1860s) before the last episode took place (which is in 1883).

The house they used for the exteriors of the Russell "cottage" was The Elms, which was actually built in Newport in 1901 in the French eighteenth-century revival style; Newport mansions simply were not built to look anything like that in the 1860s.

[quote] Did I miss something from last season? Why is the bald servant's daughter and husband so freaked out about him?

They are booth in high society, and her father has fallen in the world enough that he is now a servant. It would be degrading to them if that fact were to be publicized.

*"both," not "booth"

Would like to know what he did to fall out of society....

The single biggest mistake the show can make would be to have George cheat on Bertha or her cheat on him.

His singular devotion to her and his family is what redeems his character from being an utterly unlikable robber barron. He can pull a lot of ruthless crap and not lose the audience. But, once he cheats on her, his character does not have any likable qualities.

The actress who plays Gladys is 29 years old.

That's much too old to play a teenager.

That's what I say, r92.

Here’s another nitpicky point - the show spends who-knows-how-much $ to get the women’s clothes exactly period correct, and then dresses the clergymen on Easter morning like modern day priests.

While the men's clothes are actually period perfect, the women's clothes are outrageously exaggerated cartoons of what the 1880s looked like. Most of the dresses are made with too much yardage (I guess for someone's idea of extravagance?) and composed of too many different and high contrast fabrics and trims. All of that extreme asymmetry in the bodices was rarely done at the time. The dresses are generally far too colorful for refined high society. Yes, there were aniline dyes by the 1880s and there was the occasional deeply colored dress but not in the extremes and quantities we see them here, and certainly not appropriate for church attendance (even on Easter, a holy day) and everyday wear. Lots of the ladies hats are too big, too broadly brimmed and also too covered in trims and flowers and feathers and all kinds of gewgaws.

Also, most of the women characters change dresses too frequently within one day for no reason. And nothing, including the menswear and servants clothes, looks like it's been aged at all. It's all insanely immaculate and pressed, especially for a time before modern cleaning methods and proper hygiene. I'm not saying everything has to have mud and sweat stains, but must it all look like it's never been worn before?

I know a lot of viewers love the costumes and if you find them luxurious and fun, that's great. But please don't think these dresses are an authentic representation of the period (something Downton Abbey usually did brilliantly). The first season did NOT win the costume designer any major awards because most are voted on by peers and colleagues in the business who know good design from bad.

I do wonder r95. Seriously, were bustle THAT big?

sorry, bustles, not bustle. ^^^

Another vote for Naked Jack.

Naked Jack would be nice, but I'd settle for an actual Jack story. What does he want? Why is he here?

If you think bout it, it's not really that expensive to shoot. OK, costumes definitely. Props, animals, etc. But the interiors take place either in Agnes's house or Bertha's house. And those sets are large enough so that the interiors, if its a business office or a store, etc. can all be shot in the same sound stage/buildings. As I was looking at it Sunday night, I thought about the similarity of the sets with the movie, Ragtime. I have to wonder if the sets are recycled for various projects.

Didn't realise we had a new thread for the premiere, oopsie!

Man, I missed this show and the DL discussion it generates, feels like an eternity since the first season aired. Also missed Blake Ritson's wig and the beautiful Harry Richardson and Ward Horton.

The camerawork is outstanding, much better than it has any right to be on this type of show. The bustling opening shot with all the people walking to the Easter service, the dolly shot in the black church, the drone flying over that Newport manse, the camera entering the room with the characters when Larry was showing them around... So, so good. Reminded me just how static period pieces used to look.

The costumes are out of this world and the costuming is so clever – notice how most dresses are period-appropriate, but then there's one or two in the bunch that are super loud and anachronistic. This contrast makes them pop out more, but it also makes you take a second look at the details on the more boring ones.

I have a technical question, though. Could someone please explain to me how they managed to capture the dialogue in the opening scene where Baranski and Nixon are walking to the church? The camera was placed too high to use boom mics, and it looked way too precise for ADR, I rewatched it five times. Were they wearing hidden lapel mics?

Lots of CGI.

OMG, I do hope the introduce Lehr into the storyline. The WIKI summary I read claims that Ward Mac Allister was on his way out, fighting a losing battle with Mrs. Astor to hold back the tides. Lehr sort of replaced him as the arbiter of NY's "new" society. And the Gay story line would be terrific. Maybe this is a set up and all of it will happen in Season 3. I do hope there's a Season 3.

For you Jack lovers, his penis is in the reflection of his sunglasses in a photo on his LPSG thread.

They dubbed themselves after filming the scene, r101??

r105 I have never seen ADR this precise, though. Although I imagine that is indeed the explanation. Crazy good sound mixing if so.

Look at this shit. Coon has never looked better in anything, ever.

I mean, look at this whole design – structure in the upper half, waves crashing against the shore in the lower half, and the sea breeze on her head. She looks like the personification of Newport.

I keep thinking how hot it had to be back then, in all those clothes in churches and opera houses, with no air conditioning. And no one wearing deodorant!

Also…why are the sidewalks paved..but not the streets?

I believe certain parts of NYC we're seeing in this show are still relatively new, so it took some time to pave them. Those Belgian block weren't cheap.

That four parter in reply to "Do you know them?" (about Raikes) was damned humorous.

No

A little

Yes

Not really.

R109, it’s unlikely that was seen as necessary. The street traffic was trollies and horse-drawn carriages and carts.

This show has a lot of faults…a LOT…but damn, I’ve missed it. I can zone in and enjoy the camp and the costumes, and I love then learning about the real people and events of NYC of that time. It’s fascinating.

Enjoy the opulence.

Laura Benanti and Robert Sean Leonard join a formidable roster of Tony-winning Gilded Age series regular and recurring cast members, including Christine Baranski, Cynthia Nixon, Audra McDonald, Nathan Lane, Michael Cerveris, Katie Finneran, Celia Keenan-Bolger, Debra Monk, Donna Murphy and Kelli O’Hara.

Donna Murphy was Anij in Star Trek Insurrection.

This show is a perfect example of how writing about a world you know nothing about can expose your shortcomings as a writer. As brilliant as Julian Fellows' writing was on Downton Abbey, this show is an utter disaster of scriptwriting. The characters don't sound American or even natural. Of the main characters, only Cynthia Nixon seems to be inside her role. Everyone else is A.C.T.I.N.G!

I thought David Furr who plays the distant cousin with the young daughter was wonderful looking in his period suits. He has a great look for the period. Is it inevitable that he will be Marian's beau this season?

"As brilliant as Julian Fellows' writing was on Downton Abbey, this show is an utter disaster of scriptwriting."

I actually think the plots of The Gilded Age are more believable and realistic than some of the dud he came up with on Downton

Give him time. Likely starting with Series 3. If there is one. Those gaudy bustles don't buy themselves.

In general, there's a theatricality to the way the lines are delivered in Gilded Age. Different characters deliver their lines differently. I know this sounds silly. Let me try to explain. Agnes is very natural. She is emphatic, haughty, rigid, etc. But the way she delivers her lines is natural. Now her sister, Cynthia Nixon's character is more formal, reserved, and her line delivery is measured. So is Louisa's (Meryl's baby girl) delivery. Almost stilted. Bertha and Mrs. Astor, also stilted, measured, deliberate. But Bertha's daughter and Mrs. Astor's daughter are more natural and uninhibited. Miss Scott's line delivery, even when speaking to her parents is also rather affected. Sort of stilted. It's almost as if the characters were reading their lines from the pages of a novel written in those t imes.

If we haven't seen dear Larry's moist hole by Season 3, this show is lost! LOST, you hear me!?

Tangentially, Aussie twink Harry Richardson seems to have posted gay fellow Aussie Keiynan Lonsdale (of Love, Simon fame) on his IG with heart emojis exchanged in the comments 👀

It’s not that good…but it’s what we have been served.

Well now we know where all the money came from.

All the great fortunes were founded on crimes and no income tax.

These over-dressed thugs should not be romanticized but remembered for the horrors they profited from.

I don’t know the economics of producing the show, but I would imagine it’s a win for HBO since the show has global appeal.

[quote]r43 Robert Sean Leonard as the new rector of St. Thomas’? Uggh. He’s a charter member of the FLC (Fucking Lucky Club)

I always mix him up with nepo baby Campbell Scott. They were poised for kind of distinguished careers that never really happened. And at heart their both rather boring.

If it has global appeal it's because foreigners have no idea what real Americans sound like.

Big Bertha will put a stop to Oscar the pool.

^ poof

LOVE LOVE LOVE this thread and this series

Morgan Spector is very good looking. But a lousy actor. Coon needs a better scene partner.

[quote]e. The appearance of Christine Nilsson singing from "Faust" at the end was a great shout-out to "the Age of Innocence," which begins in its first sentence with Nilsson singing from the same opera (but at the Academy of Music).

the Met apparently did this production so much it was nicknamed "Das FaustFestspeilhaus"

[quote]of the period (something Downton Abbey usually did brilliantly).

not really, the earl of grantham always looked taudry

I wondered about the bustles--authentic? The fabrics seem heavy and the jewel tone colors seems like they belong in a different time.

they started with brighter colors around then

will there, possibly, be more CUNTING of the BUTLERS?

[...]

Was there no protocol about wearing tiaras but lacking any European titles?

The union-busting scenes are very timely, aren't they. An eight-hour workday, can you think of anything worse?!

Safety standards? How ridiculous!

R120, I attribute it to direction. There have been a couple of interviews where the actors have referenced how they are telling them to sound. So it's quite formal, precise, clipped on the idea it's evoking the era. I don't know if it is or it isn't but that's my theory about why. You're right about the sounds. For me the only one who carries off is Kelly O'Hara, with Nixon a close second. In an unhinged way, I am furious with Nixon because I think she was among the interfering influences that turned AJLT into APOS (A Pile of Shit.) But somehow she trascends her nonsense there and I think she takes this restricted little part and plays the fuck out of it. You knew Ada would be the nice Aunt but she lends a real warmth to it and adds this layer of someone overlooked and largely ignored who has been watching the lot of them her whole life, with nobody noticing, and has the measure of every one of them and all the bullshit.

[quote]If it has global appeal it's because foreigners have no idea what real Americans sound like.

Or perhaps because they do?

The footman Jack has an almost cartoony face. Put him in riding silks and give him a hat and he looks like a horse jockey.

To me they've corrected a major flaw in that the principle social tension now seems to be between Big Bertha and Mrs. Astor. It works. Historically, it makes sense.

Baranski should have been cast as Mrs. Astor. Agnes still doesn't make a lot of sense and is kind of peripheral. She's more like a back up sniper, most of her lines and observations about the Russells could be Mrs. Astor's. The Van Rhijn (sp? Oh, dear pre-emptus) house makes sense... it is anchored in Marian's story as newly arrived fish a bit out of water.

But Agnes' character to me, while entertaining, is a bit lost in it all. She has no purpose but to pronounce. Sort of the Dowager Countess without legs. She doesn't seem to do anything, she doesn't seem to much like anybody or participate meaningfully anyone else's life. Maybe she's just there as a sort of here comes the laugh line Greek Chorus, but even then she isn't obsessed with Big Bertha. For hilarity, she could have been, absolutely fixated, and comedic in her active determination to prevent Big Bertha from even leaving her house. I'd bet Donna Murphy came in and made everybody sit up and pay attention with how she played the Mrs. Astor part.

Principal! Oh, dear...

Oh, Dear!!

If you can access this one, beware, The Times spoils the unpending twist that's been talked about.

The review is less amusing and substantive than The Telegraph's, which I will add below.

R139: Nixon's diction isn't consistent during Episode 1, which is distracting. I wouldn't give her any prizes.

R142: I mostly agree--we don't really need Agnes if we have Mrs. Astor unless Agnes serves some novel purpose later on. She's there because of Nixon, Streep Jr and the African-American character but those characters could have been incorporated in other ways. As it is, Nixon doesn't have much to do besides crochet and Streep Jr attracts suitors and occasionally acts modern. The African-American plotline seems tacked-on. You could easily have Nixon and Streep be distant relations of the Astors (or simply fictionalize Mrs. Astor).

This one makes me giggle for the backhanded lines like "Spotters of Fellowes’s tin-eared dialogue". Poor Uncle Jlian.

Shameless social climber Bertha Russell (the terrific Carrie Coon) was enraged when her bid for a box at the prestigious Academy of Music was rejected. She vowed to help make its upstart rival, the Metropolitan Opera House, a roaring success instead. It didn’t matter that she didn’t know her arias from her elbow. The episode was amusingly titled You Don’t Even Like Opera, but as Bertha said: “The opera is where society puts itself on display. The leaders take boxes where they meet each other and their children court each other. That is how the wheels of society turn.”

Spotters of Fellowes’s tin-eared dialogue will find plenty to amuse them here. Bertha’s robber baron husband George (Morgan Spector) was busy fighting his own battles, trying to quash the troublesome union at his Pittsburgh steel plant. The pesky workers wanted safety measures, regulated working hours, perhaps even healthcare and housing. The absolute gall of it. Pass the cigars.

Across 61st Street at the Van Rhijn residence, widowed snob Agnes and her spinster sister Ada (Christine Baranski and Cynthia Nixon, both delicious) exchanged knowing looks over their needlepoint. Their niece Marian (Louisa Jacobson, daughter of a certain Meryl Streep) rebelled by secretly teaching watercolours at an Upper East Side girls’ school. Clutch your pearls in outrage for maximum effect.

Modern intrigue was provided by a closeted gay son and a black family from Brooklyn. Don’t say Lord Fellowes can’t do diversity. It was the usual round of tea-party politics and lavish luncheons, longing looks and whispered gossip. The Gilded Age is essentially Downton Abbey goes to America. The upstairs/downstairs plots are irresistibly soapy. Romance simmers. Feuds fester. Production values and costume design are eye-poppingly sumptuous. The high-calibre cast carry it all off.

It might lack Downton’s family warmth, but it’s glamorous, just-camp-enough comfort-viewing – now more confident and less clumsy than its uneven debut run. The HBO-made series airs on Sunday nights in the US and 24 hours later overseas. My tip: record and watch it the following Sunday, where period drama belongs. Sofa dress code: hats, of course.

R145: The link is firewalled, could you give us a synopsis?

R148, Nutshell, pretty much the same rating as the Telegraph's, same number of stars. She finds it entertaining for what it is, hates the opera storyline, says there are some good twists and turns for what the show is. More dour snark than clever snark, but not really that much.

"The Gilded Age, Julian Fellowes’ New York version of Downton Abbey, is back for a second series and not even trying to hide the fact that it is basically And Just Like That … but with bustles not Blahniks.

The opening scene was straight from the And Just Like That … playbook: a series of women opening posh hat boxes, but instead of the tedious Met Ball, they were preening for the Easter Day service. We then had a 19th-century fashion parade of sumptuous outfits that looked like they were made from your nan’s old curtains. Just like AJLT, the characters are largely very mannered and self-obsessed, and some of the more tedious plot strands (and there are many) are offset by waterboarding the viewer with velvet, brocade and property porn. This eye candy works much of the time, although the spend on gaudy textiles must have been obscene."

[quote]OMG, I do hope the introduce Lehr into the storyline

Unlikely.

Last season was set in 1882; this season is set in 1883. Lehr was born in 1869, so he would be fourteen when this season takes place. he did not become an important figure in NYC and Newport society until after Ward McAllister became a society outcast in 1890 for writing his tell-all memoir.

A story about the house that served in S1 as Mamie Fish's Newport house.

I love the opera line

"It didn’t matter that she didn’t know her arias from her elbow. The episode was amusingly titled You Don’t Even Like Opera."

Maybe Baranski should have been cast as Mrs. Fish.

I love how Dataloungers respond to this show:

"Oh, everything was wrong from beginning to end! The costumes were all wrong, the sets were ghastly, the acting was awful, and nothing happened! And I cannot wait to watch the next episode so I can report right back again about how everything is wrong!"

It's like we ourselves have become cunting butlers for this show.

Totally!!

The most hilarious line of the night was when someone referred to Gladys Russell as "beautiful."

That was Oscar and he was working her like nobody's business in that moment, pulling out all the stops.

So what is the big plot twist?

Please no future spoilers, or at least mark them clearly if you are going to post them here.

You can't have a plot twist when you don't have a plot.

R159, it was supposed to be kept under wraps but if you want to know, the UK's the Times spoiled it this morning in a review.

What year does this season take place in? I think they mentioned the sitting president in the first season, is he still the same one?

Noone knows about the tiara protocol? I thought they were only appropriate for women with aristocratic titles.

There were too few aristocrats and too much tiara money floating around in the US at the time for them to observe those rules. Remember that American dollar princesses bailed out struggling estates back in the old country, they weren't going to obey some old rules set up by the now poor euros.

We don't have titles here so why would that matter to American women R164?

I am vaguely familiar with tiara protocols but this is for English girls and women. Americans may be very different.

A title is not necessary to wear a tiara. They are not worn by girls, a tiara wearer must be a married woman. They are worn to white tie occasions only, never for simply formal occasions.

It may have been acceptable in the late 1800's for American women to wear tiaras and I remember them from the 60's. On the whole, American women look ridiculously overdressed and costumey in tiaras.

Priest vestments were all wrong; eg stole outside chasuble. Also, servants would not have attended church on Easter morning as they would have been busy preparing lunch.

It's all flex. Those old money fraus have a limited number of dusty old tiaras, while someone like Bertha can buy as many as she wants and never recycle them. Like pulling up in a brand new luxury car to every event.

While the Berthas and Mrs Astors of the world were selling their daughters to aristos, they were also buying up their tiaras and other jewels.

Well those girls can marry all the Earls they want, Oscar was fucking the grandson of a president of the United States.

Hate the player, not the game!

R163, it's 1883. The new Met opens in the fall of that year and it hasn't happened yet.

Tiaras are just jewels, not crowns. Anyone can wear them and anyone did.

TIARA RULES OF PROTOCOL (though these are for Brits, not Americans):

~ Tiaras are reserved for formal events: a White-tie ball, an occasion of state, coronations, royal dinners, and for a bride to wear at her wedding.

~ According to English protocol, diamond tiaras are only worn by married women or members of the royal family. (Most royals wear their first tiara on their wedding day.) An unmarried woman does not wear a tiara. Hence, a diamond tiara brilliantly serves as a status symbol for a married woman, equivalent to a wedding ring. It is an outward display that she is married and, hence, not looking for a husband.

~Traditionally, a bride will wear her first tiara on her wedding day, which comes from her family’s collection. Lady Diana wore her Spencer family tiara on her wedding day. (Quite often, the tiara is given as an 18th birthday present but not worn until her wedding day.) Nowadays, however, it is acceptable to wear the future husband’s family’s tiara. The bride will change over to her husband’s family’s tiara, if there is one, once she is married. A long-established tradition is to have a diamond tiara passed down through one's family.

~ Like the old-school “no diamond jewelry while the sun is up” rule, tiaras are reserved for events after five in the evening or after sunset. (The exception is that a bride may wear a tiara at a daytime wedding.)

~ Conventionally, tiaras were worn only in private residences (not in a hotel or public space), except for a bride’s wedding day. This rule has become more relaxed, and tiaras are acceptable at formal events outside of a private residence.

^ This message is brought to you by Lindsey Graham

"In distant New York, Philadelphia an Newport on the other hand, Mrs. William Astor, Mrs. George J. Gould, Mrs. W.K. Vanderbilt and Eva (Mrs. Edward) Stotesbury entertained with a degree of magnificence which made European balls appear almost insignificant. The moneyed classes of the United States, who had originally raised themselves above their bourgeois origins through their own hard work, set out to rival the historical aristocracy of Europe. In friendly competition with her rivals, the well-to-do American women refused to forgo any of the attributes sanctioned by society. These accessories included country houses imported from Europe complete with ancestral portraits and furnishings, [bold]as well as tiaras order from Cartier's in Paris and later New York."[/bold]

--"Cartier," by Hans Nadelhoff

***

Bertha's dinner was white-tie, so it would have been permissible among those women to wear tiaras.

Thanks for all the tiara details!

I have an 89 yr old cousin and when my mother and I were looking at old family pictures, I saw a picture of my elderly cousin in a formal gown and a TIARA for her senior prom, in 1951.

[quote] These accessories included country houses imported from Europe complete with ancestral portraits and furnishings

This just seems really tacky. Here's some old bastard from the 17th century that has nothing to do with me. Ain't it grand?

Well, Tasteful Friends had to start somewhere....

There was no other form of formal wear besides white tie (and tails) until the advent of the tuxedo post WWI. So to use the term "white tie" is not really helpful.

The tiara made a brief comeback as a high fashion accessory in 1956 when Grace Kelly became the Princess of Monaco.

How does one import an ancestral country estate?

Well, IKEA had to start somewhere.

I prefer Upstairs Downstairs (1971-1975)

Basically, dismantle it, ship it, rebuild it.

Hearst did it in California.

We took better care of it here.

R187, in the same spirit, in1968 some guy bought the 1831 version London Bridge and moved the whole thing to Arizona. This wasn’t the most iconic version of the bridge (the one that had lasted 600 years), but it was the structure that had made it through WWII.

R187 He did it in Miami.

He never did it at Wyntoon, California, as planned. Julia Morgan did something else there for him.

I wish Raikes, the social climber, would have a secret affair with Oscar the Gay nephew.

I wish Jack the footman would offer himself to Oscar.

Wouldn't have been unheard of for a rich guy to seduce a servant

They did it all the time

Women's shoes back then were so unattractive. It actually wasn't until the 20's that they looked better. The flappers wore cute shoes. '

r101, For many large scenes, actors are miked. I only see booms with closer shots. Sometimes they'll do both mikes and booms to get the atmosphere sound.

Taissa Farmiga, who plays Gladys, is actually a pretty woman, but they make her so homely here. Apparently she auditioned for Marian's role, but she and Fellows agreed she wasn't right for the role.

They could easily hide huge mics and mic packs in the ladies wigs and hats, r196.

Apparently Chrisina Nillson was the inspiration behind Chjritine Daae in Phantom Of the Opera.

One line of dialogue stood out to me as anachronistic, when Oscar told his friend “I met a GUY at a bar”

Would a society man have used the word “guy?”

r83 Liev is too big and sweaty. If one squints, he becomes Richard Masur.

The costumes are great, but I need a story, characters, bon mots, ANYTHING. This show is a lot of nothing.

[quote] Would a society man have used the word “guy?”

The term was current then, but likely only used casually. “Type” was also current then

r200, I caught that too. Also the young maid saying, "I gotta get back" when she was in the other household's kitchen having dinner with them.

"What is a week end?"

I seriously doubt that this gets a third season. It’s undoubtedly very expensive. S1 only got one Emmy nomination and it was for production design.

Were those outlandish costumes not even nominated for an Emmy? Color me not surprised.

Agree, R206. It doesn't seem to be drawing massive audiences and it isn't critically acclaimed. What's the point? Maybe Netflix will pick it up to make up for the loss of The Crown or do a co-production with PBS. It is such a PBS show. I read a review that made it sound as if the second season (like the first) ends such that if it is cancelled there's no particular loose ends.

George and Marian are destined for each other.

George and Oscar cannot hide their love!

Team Larian!

Peggie is gonna out Oscar, I just KNOW it

[quote]Liev is too big and sweaty. If one squints, he becomes Richard Masur.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

The costumes are hideous. And Not period.

I just added another $25 to my cable bill to subscribe to HBO/Showtime to see Gilded Age/Fellow Traveler, and they are both addictive.

My problem with Gilded Age is that it isn't Downton Abbey. What I mean is, that with DA, I feel invested in the characters. "PoorEdith," Lady Violet, Lady Mary, all of them, Wobert etc. even the dramas of the downstairs servants, etc. That world seemed real, and when I am in a certain mood, I like to pop in and visit Downton Abbey. I even find the music soothing. I guess you could say it is transporting. I feel the same way about Mad Men and the Sopranos. It's as if you're stepping thru time and you can get away for a few hours. I don't feel transported by the Gilded Age. Even worse I don't really care about the characters. If you told me Bertha Russell or Mrs. Astor were going to be recast, or that you were killing off Oscar, I wouldn't give a rat's ass.

R216, I get it. Even for Fellowes' these scripts and characters lack substance. It's like he's jumped straight to I'm bored but look at all this lovely money!

I really enjoyed the first season of Downton. After that, it got progressively worse, till you ended up with daytime soap opera plotting and the same scenes over and over again. It was really terrible by the 3rd season. This, though, was terrible in the first season, but, as with Downton, it has some interesting performances and cool sets and costumes. (No matter how out of period they are.)

I thought GA S2 opened well. Not perfect, but better than anything in S1.

I agree with you, r16. I'm enjoying Hotel Portofino more than GA, and I had so looked forward to this. It's all so clipped and ill-defined.

^^^r216 ! Sorry guys.

Fellowes definitely fell into soap-ish cliches on DA---the endless Bates trial drama and teh various weddings, as well as throw away ploys like Daisy's brief interest in socialism. He even worked that old chestnut, amnesia, into the WWI plot line. No evil twins, but I'll bet he wished the show took place at a time when alien abduction wouldn't have seemed so absurd.

Fellowes had some truly comical flaws in DA. Bates couldn't carry luggage or hand a tray to a maid without dropping it but he could lift a paralyzed Matthew (probably 180 lbs.) into bed! Bates also could walk perfectly fine without his stick around the prison yard. Lavinia's middle class barrister father was so broke she had to steal secrets from her uncle to satisfy her father's debt to Richard Carlisle. Yet just a couple of years later Lavinia's middle-class barrister father left behind such a fortune when he died that it was enough to save Downton Abbey! LOL.

R220, I just started Hotel Portofino thank you very much. I think I'm loving it.

I like Hotel Portofino, too

it's delightful

The pièce de résistance of horrible writing in DA had to be the Christmas miracle of paralyzed Mathew suddenly standing up, completely cured. It was a laugh riot.

R227, yes it was like watching an old 1930's or 40's movie. Predictable, hilarious, and yet.....

DA got away with a lot, but somehow it all worked.

I think because in Downton he somehow - or the actors - managed to make so many of the characters kind of likeable. You don't get that in Gilded Age. I'd argue the only likeable ones are Larry, Aurora Fane, Miranda (against all odds) and Marian. The rest of them are just kind of what will they do next?

Downton Abbey (and Upstairs/Downstairs before it) dealt with just one household, thus more time could be given to each character. GA has too many characters and the audience investment in them just isn't there.

Plus Carrie Coon and Christine Baranski, the head of each household, don't come close to Dame Maggie.

And the first two series weren't so much about constantly trying to wow us with extravagant excess wealth, asymmetric bustle dresses and CGI effects.

The only thing that can save it now is gay sex and lots of it. Even some fisting to spice things up. SEX SELLS

I often wonder if it's main problem is due to the fact he's not American. Richard Curtis can't write American dialogue for shit either. Laura Linney sounded disastrous in the Love, Actually movie.

Great posts above. DA was saccharine but that was kind of the point. The Crawley family characters knew their purpose in life was to live well, sitting around, enjoying each other, being funny. Same with the servants doing their jobs. Most of the issues weighing on people were keeping secrets & maintaining honor, etc. It was fun and easy to watch. Plus the cohesive musical queues kept you engaged from scene to scene, and they wrapped up many stories in one episode. TGA comes across as overly complicated, with pretty unlikeable characters. It reeks of the same type of nihilistic machination that pervades modern society. Just doing mean stuff without emotional payoff or deeper rationale.

R234, I do think Fellowes has been particularly lax (even for Fellowes) at giving us any sense of backstory. We know what they want, but no real idea why.

And of course in DA - we had Thomas always getting fucked.

[quote] And of course in DA - we had Thomas always getting fucked.

"always"?

I think that happened once or twice in all those years.

Once or twice in all those years?

From my perspective - that's always.

Do we mean fucked as in screwed or fucked as in screwed over?

Pretty sure it's screwed over. I always thought that they should made Jimmy gay for Thomas.

Fucked as when the man is up in the man

Never has so much effort been invested in something with so little drama.

YAWN!

Sorry, R241, you did not phrase your answer in the form of a question.

R242, it's a [italic]mellow[/italic] drama.

It was a declaearion, not a question.

Declaration —never mind

The chyaracter's and especially their tribulations are just not interesting enough.

characters, obviously ^^

Anyone ever see the SNL skit with Salma Hayek about DT? Hilarious.

It’s a lovely show and I’m watching it.

Does Mrs. Fish have a spin-off in the works? I'd rather see that.

I loved Astor's line: I should scold you too, Mrs. Fish, except you're only playing with matches, as I know you like to do.

she's a little vixen

Crawley family are not FABULOUSLY wealthy. They are wealthy, titled gentry. The Robber Baron wealth was something else entirely and is a central pivot of Gilded Age culture, and so also this series.

gilded era wealth was the reason for lady crawley even being welcomed into higher level births aristocracy, she was simply too bloody wealthy too ignore

I watched a show called Million Dollar Princessses and they were comparing the wealth of the robber barons at that time to modern currency. Those guys were worth obscene amounts of money. Like 500 billion. No wonder the impoverished aristocracy were desperate for American heiresses.

R256 we have a few guys on their way to half a trillion. This nonsense needs to stop. Guillotine!!

r256 And yet the cunt was in full on freakout mode when his workers called for basic safety measures and a nine-hour workday. Much like the whole industrial revolution, that obscene wealth was built on the backs of poor workers not receiving their fair share.

naturally, as it nearly always was

Not to mention (literal) slave labor.

Catholic in Boston and Italian? In the 1790s? And mentioning the Irish?

Russell's kid seems queenier than Oscar.

"The wo-wah is heatin' up"

As a tennis lover, seeing The Newport Casino and the old enclosed grass court is wonderful.

Glad the cunting Butlers are back!

Who else suspects the Laura Benanti character (the young widow into the Russell son) has some dark secrets?

That shot of the two of them in profile kissing - those noses!!

Of course, that hussy has dark secrets, especially when she's seducing that obviously gay boy. She probably comes from a "common" background. She definitely married her 1st husband for his money and then tolerated his bad taste.

There’s a new thread for episode 2.

R265 They had the same noses! They looked like mother and son. Or siblings.

R264 - more Cunting of the Butlers, please! I'd watch a series entirely centered around butlers of wealthy families trying to out-cunt each other.

Who was the broad who showed up at the end of the show that Bertha obviously knows but pretended not to?

Do Bertha and her hubs ever have sex? I know in S1 it was implied they were pretty hot and heavy when they do share a room. This season seems like sex has been neutered.

Miss Turner, who was Bertha’s maid but was fired. She tried to seduce George.

I wonder if the newly married Miss Turner's husband is richer than George. She is certainly going to plot for Bertha's downfall.

Good. The show needs to have a foil for Bertha. Agnes hasn't been it and neither has Mrs. Astor.

Hunny, I think George will plot the downfall of her husband's money.

Hard to imagine anyone richer than George, who is supposed to be Vanderbilt.

r275, Foghorn Leghorn said that the husband was "Very very rich".

Wonderful series.

Boring dreck, not even camp fun.

They couldn't find a prettier sexier actress to play Turner?? And it's not like she's a particularly compelling actress either.

Benanti would be better cast as Turner.

Too many characters look the same: Bertha, Turner, Mrs. Blaine, etc.

Is Mrs. Blaine going to turn into an Alex Forrest type?

Will I ever get my own story line?

[...]

Celia is terrible in this show.

Celia looks so OLD in this.

Are we ever going to see Armstrong’s poor mother again sitting in her own shit in a tenement?

I think we will see some drama when the two Black characters go to Alabama. It may not end well.

So predictable!

What is, R288? Your comment?

No, r287's comment, r289. How dense are you?

Not as dense as someone who forgets to add an R-tag or quote a comment, R288.

And yet YOU responded so I guess it worked, r291.