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Richard Dubois- Vintage Beefcake

Richard Frank Dubois was born in The Bronx, NY in 1933. He was the youngest of 3 kids. His father was of French ancestry and his mother of Italian ancestry. When his parents divorced while he was young, his mother was forced to place all 3 kids in an orphanage because she could no longer take care of them. He was a natural athlete who excelled at all sports in school, especially boxing, swimming and weight training. In 1952, at 19 years old, he decided to move to Los Angeles to pursue professional bodybuilding and acting.

Despite being unknown in the world of professional bodybuilding, he entered Mr. America and placed 2nd in 1953. In 1954 he would be awarded the title. In 1955 he entered Mr. Universe and placed 2nd. He went on to win Mr. New York State and Mr. Atlantic Coast. By 1955, just 3 years after arriving in LA, he became one of the most photographed men in the professional physique world, and became one of the most sought after professional physique models, appearing in EVERY physique magazine the existed at the time. Every photographer wanted to work with him.

In 1957 he entered Mr. USA and won the title. Mae West also took notice of him and cast him as the lead gladiator of her stage revue. He remained in the show for less than a year before leaving.

Despite all his success in the physique modeling world, he felt empty and in 1959 left it all behind and went on to be ordained. He got married that same year and in 1961 had a son. He became a Pastor and remained one in Los Angeles until the day he died in 2007 at 74 years old.

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by Anonymousreply 216December 12, 2023 11:41 PM
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by Anonymousreply 1October 26, 2023 1:57 AM
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by Anonymousreply 2October 26, 2023 1:57 AM
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by Anonymousreply 3October 26, 2023 1:58 AM
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by Anonymousreply 4October 26, 2023 1:58 AM

Clean, woulda let him sit on my face.

by Anonymousreply 5October 26, 2023 1:58 AM

My personal favorite

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by Anonymousreply 6October 26, 2023 1:59 AM

Him with Mae West.

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by Anonymousreply 7October 26, 2023 2:04 AM
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by Anonymousreply 8October 26, 2023 2:05 AM

Very hot. Wish there were more younger dudes these days with this aesthetic.

by Anonymousreply 9October 26, 2023 2:06 AM

Him with Mae West, featured in LIFE magazine

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by Anonymousreply 10October 26, 2023 2:08 AM

Wasn't Mae West a drag queen?

by Anonymousreply 11October 26, 2023 2:09 AM

Sweet Jeebus. Too bad his chest is smooth.

by Anonymousreply 12October 26, 2023 2:09 AM

Most bodybuilders shave their body hair off. But he also could have been naturally smooth

by Anonymousreply 13October 26, 2023 2:12 AM

On Muscle Beach with two of his buddies. He’s the one on the left.

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by Anonymousreply 14October 26, 2023 2:13 AM

On the cover of Adonis

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by Anonymousreply 15October 26, 2023 2:16 AM

On the cover of French magazine Muscles

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by Anonymousreply 16October 26, 2023 2:17 AM

With Steve Reeves and Debbie Reynolds

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by Anonymousreply 17October 26, 2023 2:18 AM

On the cover of Body Beautiful

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by Anonymousreply 18October 26, 2023 2:20 AM


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by Anonymousreply 19October 26, 2023 2:21 AM

Flexing for the camera

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by Anonymousreply 20October 26, 2023 2:24 AM

Backstage with his leading lady Mae West after she cast him as the lead gladiator for her revue.

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by Anonymousreply 21October 26, 2023 2:27 AM

All smiles

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by Anonymousreply 22October 26, 2023 2:31 AM
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by Anonymousreply 23October 26, 2023 2:32 AM

No peen?

by Anonymousreply 24October 26, 2023 2:34 AM

If he showed peen in 1950s he would be a criminal.

by Anonymousreply 25October 26, 2023 2:41 AM

Did he ever hook up with guys? He clearly didn't mind posing for "physique" magazines

by Anonymousreply 26October 26, 2023 2:42 AM

What the fuck does being a physique model have to do with hooking up with guys? Jesus. You can’t be a real person.

by Anonymousreply 27October 26, 2023 2:46 AM

R27 its possible R26 has no knowledge of this ancient culture of physique modeling. We are very old, and jaded.

by Anonymousreply 28October 26, 2023 2:47 AM

R26 Physique Models were bodybuilders who were good looking enough to model also. He was a professional bodybuilder. Back then that was a legit career and you could make a lot of money off of it and venture into other entertainment fields through it. Look at Arnold Schwarzenegger for the perfect example. It has nothing to do with being gay.

by Anonymousreply 29October 26, 2023 2:47 AM

R28 no. Even if he doesn’t “know” he can educate himself or ask questions that are actually smart. Assuming MODELING has anything to do with gay sex is just bizarre.

by Anonymousreply 30October 26, 2023 2:48 AM

In motion.

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by Anonymousreply 31October 26, 2023 2:51 AM

I'd titty fuck him.

by Anonymousreply 32October 26, 2023 2:52 AM

With Miss Perfect Figure Betty Weider.

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by Anonymousreply 33October 26, 2023 2:57 AM

r30 isn't aware that many of those "physique" models were gay for pay

by Anonymousreply 34October 26, 2023 2:58 AM

R34 not the ones doing the pageants and shows. That was more the underground beefcake stuff.

by Anonymousreply 35October 26, 2023 3:00 AM

He was mainstream and was featured in every single physique magazine of the time, including international magazines. He was a pageant winner who was recruited to do a movie and then a show by Mae West.

He wasn’t doing underground beefcake rags that had to be sold via mail anonymously to avoid persecution.

by Anonymousreply 36October 26, 2023 3:02 AM

A. He was very handsome. It’s sad he had a fucked up childhood but that was common in NY, and I wonder if his parents ever saw they created someone who grew up to be a beautiful man.

B. R36 is right. There is a big difference between the underground “beefcake” models of the time and the mainstream physique models of the time. He was instantly getting booked for gigs etc. and despite being unknown still got himself in pageants with no experience.

Bodybuilding modeling was a full time career back then, unlike now. Steve Reeves was also a physique model who then became an actor. Arnold S. also. The magazines gave you the exposure (and pay). This was pre-internet. Now you can upload your pics online and anyone can see. Back then to be seen you had to be placed in some big distribution, like a magazine.

He left it all within 5 years. He didn’t stay around. He was unhappy and felt empty.

by Anonymousreply 37October 26, 2023 3:09 AM

They don’t make ‘em like they use to. If he were around today, his brows would be tweezed within an inch of his life and he’d have a tat sleeve or a bunch of random squiggly tattoos. Plus he’d be roided to the point his muscles looked nasty.

by Anonymousreply 38October 26, 2023 3:09 AM

Where's the obligatory, "Eldergays--who's had him?"

by Anonymousreply 39October 26, 2023 3:17 AM

R39 ha! They should be so lucky. They wish they could have had him.

Theres actually a photo that was discovered many years later of him sitting nude like this where you get a side shot, but the head of his dick and balls were visible in the shot. It was clearly never used for print (it couldn’t be) but it’s believed the photographer kept the photo for himself. Someone found it in an envelope years later.

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by Anonymousreply 40October 26, 2023 3:23 AM

Beautiful boy. He did inherit an Italian nose.

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by Anonymousreply 41October 26, 2023 3:24 AM
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by Anonymousreply 42October 26, 2023 3:31 AM

He had a beautiful smile.

by Anonymousreply 43October 26, 2023 3:31 AM

This one made me giggle.

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by Anonymousreply 44October 26, 2023 3:37 AM
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by Anonymousreply 45October 26, 2023 3:41 AM

That smile is devastating! Even without all the muscle.

by Anonymousreply 46October 26, 2023 3:47 AM

No photos of him after he left the modeling business? I wonder if he aged nicely.

by Anonymousreply 47October 26, 2023 3:48 AM

He became a Pastor. And I don’t think any exist.

Hell, many photos from while he was modeling are probably lost with time.

by Anonymousreply 48October 26, 2023 3:50 AM

Sleeping beauty

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by Anonymousreply 49October 26, 2023 3:50 AM

He could shit on my face!

by Anonymousreply 50October 26, 2023 4:05 AM

Be gone filthy scat troll.

by Anonymousreply 51October 26, 2023 4:07 AM

I’m guessing that the total amount of sperm ejaculated from jacking off to those photos in the 1950s and 60s could have been enough to repopulate the entire planet.

by Anonymousreply 52October 26, 2023 4:12 AM

I wonder what kind of bed linens he had? In the fifties they didn't have poly cotton blends.

by Anonymousreply 53October 26, 2023 4:16 AM

R50 = Liza

by Anonymousreply 54October 26, 2023 4:41 AM

Wow. He was exceptionally beautiful.

And if course he sucked dick, just like every other beefcake who made their living with their mostly naked bodies.

by Anonymousreply 55October 26, 2023 4:46 AM

Before this time period, at this time period, and up to now, bodybuilders have always been into escorting or muscle worship. It's a very expensive "sport". You think they spend all day in the gym and can afford about $100.00 a day in food and about $50.00 a day in "supplements"?

by Anonymousreply 56October 26, 2023 6:13 AM


by Anonymousreply 57October 26, 2023 6:35 AM

R56 FALSE. He was in mainstream magazines. Not a BEEFCAKE model. A PHYSIQUE MODEL. You can keep on saying it but it’s not the same thing. Jesus.

by Anonymousreply 58October 26, 2023 7:04 AM

R58, I really don't think photographs like R20 are intended for a straight male audience. His naughty bits are barely covered.

Aren't posing pouches common in beefcake magazines, which are intended as erotica for gay and bisexual men?

by Anonymousreply 59October 26, 2023 7:09 AM

R59 dude. Mainstream muscle magazines were putting photos of muscled men in them. Go buy an issue of a modern fitness magazine. They’re still in there. What you think doesn’t change anything. The fact you can’t understand that in the 1950s this was a very different world is absurd. He was in MUSCLE magazines sold in stores. The magazines you are speaking about weren’t even legal in the country and were sold underground. What’s hard to get?

by Anonymousreply 60October 26, 2023 7:16 AM

Some of the photos are probably from beefcake rags. Little do any of you realize, some of the photographers who worked on the mainstream magazines also did the underground beefcake stuff with those same models. A lot of times those models didn’t know there was a difference.

The men who started those underground porn magazines were photographers who got the idea while photographing bodybuilders and beautiful men. No, most of those bodybuilders weren’t “escorting “ and many of them weren’t even aware they were being featured in the underground magazines. They thought the g-strings they were taking photos in were for the same magazines they were being featured in at the time.

For example, I am a photographer and I am assigned to photograph you today for Muscle Magazine. I will take tons of photos of you and ask you to maybe do something different etc. only some will be for my own personal magazine and you have no idea. Those erotic magazines were not even legal yet.

However, even if a model did pose for erotic magazines that doesn’t mean they’re an escort and getting fucked. That doesn’t even make sense. You can be a nude model without being a prostitute. And no, most bodybuilders weren’t whores. It was an easy way to make money back then.

by Anonymousreply 61October 26, 2023 7:26 AM

Might I add that some of the g-string photographs may have been from when he first arrived in LA and was just getting started. As stated, he moved to LA at 19 with no experience in 1952. 1953 is when he started seeing success. He very well could have done some beefcake shoots for money and once he started getting booked for mainstream stuff he stopped. He also might have not even known he was posing for erotica. One thing that is known about the beefcake magazines is that the men behind them notoriously would find young beautiful men who would move to a new city and recruit them. Those young men usually didn’t know they were posing for underground rag magazines. The man behind the actual “Beefcake” magazine didn’t only go down for distribution of erotica, but because it turned out a lot of the young men weren’t aware they were posing for such a magazine and thought it was something mainstream and normal.

by Anonymousreply 62October 26, 2023 7:39 AM

Fussy old queens on here arguing over the difference between beefcake and underground. STFU and just enjoy this slab of gorgeousness.

by Anonymousreply 63October 26, 2023 9:03 AM

Agreed. He’s absolutely gorgeous. You don’t see natural beauties like that these days. Well, you do see some but not nearly that perfect.

by Anonymousreply 64October 26, 2023 12:50 PM

I hate to say it, but he looks like if Andy Cohen were straight, strapping, handsome, and tall.

by Anonymousreply 65October 26, 2023 12:52 PM

A photograph someone found years ago in an old envelope of him. Its a photo that was never published anywhere (for obvious reasons in the 50s) but believed the photographer took the photo and kept it for himself.

The person who found it uploaded it to the internet (naturally, I suppose).

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by Anonymousreply 66October 26, 2023 12:53 PM

He looks NOTHING like Andy Cohen. Wtf

by Anonymousreply 67October 26, 2023 12:54 PM

Yes, R60, I understand what a mainstream muscle magazine is. I still think straight guys would recognise a muscle man in a g string as gay erotica, especially in the more prudish 1950s and 1960s. They would rather see a man in shorts or a regular swimsuit.

I'm not sure beefcake magazines were illegal, R60. It was illegal for the U.S. post office to deliver gay erotica so the beefcake magazines pretended to be physique or art magazines, even though they were meant to titillate a gay audience. This article mentions them being available at newspaper stands, bookstores and pharmacies.

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by Anonymousreply 68October 26, 2023 12:54 PM

R68 pornography was illegal in the entire country in the 60s. And the men who bought those magazines were bodybuilders. Average men aren’t buying Men’s Health. That’s for a specific audience. Same with the bodybuilders magazines.

by Anonymousreply 69October 26, 2023 12:58 PM

Physique Magazine wasn’t a beefcake rag dude. It was a MAGAZINE

by Anonymousreply 70October 26, 2023 12:59 PM

Let’s settle the debate. No attractive man had gay sex until 1978!

by Anonymousreply 71October 26, 2023 1:00 PM

He's somebody's Paw Paw now.

by Anonymousreply 72October 26, 2023 1:01 PM

R71 no one is saying that. But most men don’t and didn’t. That poster speaks as if everyone is getting fucked in the ass. It’s weird

by Anonymousreply 73October 26, 2023 1:04 PM

Are you sure there was a magazine actually called "Physique Magazine", R70?

From the wikipedia link at R70:

"However, their unstated primary purpose was erotic imagery, primarily created by and for gay men at a time when homosexuality was the subject of cultural taboos and government censorship."

by Anonymousreply 74October 26, 2023 1:09 PM

R73 at least 25-30% of men have a homosexual experience in their lifetime.

by Anonymousreply 75October 26, 2023 1:12 PM

He's old and in phissssique magazines now.

by Anonymousreply 76October 26, 2023 1:31 PM

R75 post a source for that claim.

by Anonymousreply 77October 26, 2023 1:32 PM


by Anonymousreply 78October 26, 2023 1:32 PM

Sad sacks of gay fags still arguing over the difference between beefcake and porn mags.

My only assumption is you're all too old to get wood anymore, hence this thread veering off into an argument amongst impotent eunuchs.

by Anonymousreply 79October 26, 2023 1:35 PM

No dear. The difference between physique and beefcake magazines. Please pay attention.

My pecker works fine. Thanks for asking.

by Anonymousreply 80October 26, 2023 1:46 PM

[R66 ] Many thanks for posting that pic. To say these guys were unaware the photos being taken were not for the consumption of other men is being naive. These pictures are about as far as the photographers could go at the time regarding homosexual content. If interested, try the book ‘Buying Gay’ by David K Johnson. It tells of all the male physique photographers, and magazine sellers from the beginning of the first AMG on to current times. Brave gay men struggling against hostile narrow minded religious bigoted people. They faced prison and lifetime criminal records just for photographing beautiful men for no other reason than they were sexually desirable. I’m sure Mr Dubois was well aware of the true core of his fan base. I’m also not sure Bodybuilding was ever a lucrative career in itself. It did open doors for the lucky few to move into other careers. But the competition must have been fierce. Many found these photos proved a hindrance to any legit acting career. Annie is one exception. But even he did nude private photos for a wealthy male fan. The British beefcake model John Hamil admitted his early beefcake ‘private’ cine films ruined his promising acting career in the 60’s and 70’s. Perhaps Mr. Dubois was not that good an actor on screen despite his physical beauty and decided to follow another path because all anyone really wanted him to do was take his clothes off. I just wish he had done some full nudes like my other favourite Vic Siepke.

by Anonymousreply 81October 26, 2023 2:24 PM

Me again. Lol, don’t think Annie did any beefcake modelling. Typo correction I meant Arnie.

by Anonymousreply 82October 26, 2023 2:31 PM

R81/R82: see link to that hotbed of MAGAtism, The Villages, Florida, where Mr. Siepke retired. I find the part of his obit about him being the head of a boys ministry at a Baptist Church very interesting.

Wondering if the parents of the boys he was "mentoring" knew the leader of the group did nude modeling.

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by Anonymousreply 83October 26, 2023 3:08 PM

R79 “Beefcake” rags were the porn. You are the one who doesn’t know.

by Anonymousreply 84October 26, 2023 3:17 PM


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by Anonymousreply 85October 26, 2023 3:28 PM

R81 I don’t think most people got a grasp of what “gay content” was. Gay wasn’t on most people’s radars and men to this day can be very naive and gullible when it comes to showing their body/body parts. When Playgirl became a mainstay, men did it believing it was mostly women consuming it. Shawn Michaels did it in the 90s and said he was told it was bought by women. After he did it he found out it was mostly gay men who bought it, and said he had no idea and would not have done the magazine had he known. And this was the 90s! Imagine 40 years earlier.

Men still get catfished to this day, showing ass and hole thinking they’re speaking to a woman asking for this.

Modern gay men think gay men were mainstream and on the average persons mind always. Most never thought of gays. They were kept hidden.

by Anonymousreply 86October 26, 2023 3:29 PM


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by Anonymousreply 87October 26, 2023 3:29 PM

R83 most probably didn’t. The internet didn’t exist.

by Anonymousreply 88October 26, 2023 3:30 PM

Yes r87. That is what is being said upthread. There were actual muscle magazines sold in stores but then there were porn magazines that disguised themselves as your average muscle magazine. The men who modeled for those typically had no idea they were modeling for gay men to jerk off to.

by Anonymousreply 89October 26, 2023 3:31 PM


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by Anonymousreply 90October 26, 2023 3:51 PM

[quote]Shawn Michaels did it in the 90s and said he was told it was bought by women. After he did it he found out it was mostly gay men who bought it, and said he had no idea and would not have done the magazine had he known.

Shawn, please tell us how much you hate gay men. If you're ever in a public shower, never go nude. Homos might be checking you out.

by Anonymousreply 91October 26, 2023 3:52 PM

R90 those two are very handsome.

by Anonymousreply 92October 26, 2023 4:35 PM

Yes. Those types of old movies were sold “underground” also

by Anonymousreply 93October 26, 2023 5:11 PM

Someone (and their socks) is extremely stung at the suggestion that homosexuality and male modeling have anything to do with one another. They're flipping out all up and down the thread.

by Anonymousreply 94October 26, 2023 5:12 PM

Some of you are delusional. DL knows and accepts the fact that Hollywood starlets, especially under the studio system, were routinely put through the casting couch from kids (rape/molestation) to adult actor and actresses. Not every one in front of the camera, but enough to say it was wildly accepted.

So, how can some of you sit up here and tell me that men from no-where's-ville USA, could move to LA, get jobs selling their looks, cause they lacked any other talent, weren't at least accepting or working through sexual advances of photographers or gay studio heads. Models today are still dealing with this in the MeToo social media era, but yeah, some hunk from the 1950s was not doing the escort, casting couch, or sexual assault victim shuffle. Please, body builders know the game and many still have benefactors into nude muscle worship session in hotel rooms. They go from their competition into a fan's hotel room for an hour.

Arnold was basically a kept boy as well as he attempted to make his way to the US. Do we have proof Richard did the same? No, but no one gets plucked from obscurity without paying some dues in 1950s Hollywood or 2023 Hollywood.

by Anonymousreply 95October 26, 2023 5:18 PM

R94 no one here is using sock accounts but you. The fact you even said that is proof. Also, male modeling and being attracted to men have nothing to do with one another. No wonder you’re unemployed and living off mommy.

by Anonymousreply 96October 26, 2023 5:21 PM

R95 he’s from Bronx. And where you’re from has nothing to do with shit. If they’re casting models they’re casting based on looks. You’re seriously mental. And ironic you mention socks at r94 but then make that post with one of your socks at r95.

by Anonymousreply 97October 26, 2023 5:22 PM

See what I mean? Stung.

by Anonymousreply 98October 26, 2023 5:24 PM

Not stunt. The truth. You talk about socks while using a sock, and use it back to back.

by Anonymousreply 99October 26, 2023 5:28 PM

No, babe. I don't have socks. I have neither the time to spend, nor the energy.

But instances of trollsockery are easy to spot. Several different accounts all having the same cow in a thread, restating the same opinions. Histrionic objections to other points of view. Screaming that you're right and everyone else is wrong.

OP, authenticated 'VintageBeefcake', was flipping out on the issue of male models/bodybuilders having gay sex (i.e. R27), but then started relying on socks to express his continued indignation, so it wouldn't look like it was just him.

One has to wonder what someone with that sort of hangup is even doing on a gay site. With socks, no less.

by Anonymousreply 100October 26, 2023 5:53 PM

R100 but you do. Idk why you always lie when in reality you know I’m right. You're uneducated, no job, a loser living off his mom who is on welfare. Go get a job. Go do something.

by Anonymousreply 101October 26, 2023 6:03 PM

[quote]R101: Idk why you always lie when in reality you know I’m right.

You make it sound like we interact constantly. (If you're an Anscher sock, that might be true.) But otherwise, all things being equal, this would be our first exchange.

by Anonymousreply 102October 26, 2023 6:13 PM

R102 I know EVERY SINGLE TIME you post. Every one. Stop embarrassing yourself. And stop accusing anyone of using socks when you have numerous. You have close to 200 redtagged accounts. Muriel doesn’t even want your ass here.

PS we are still waiting for the source to back up your claim that 30% of men try gay sex. Uneducated loser.

by Anonymousreply 103October 26, 2023 6:16 PM

[quote]PS we are still waiting for the source to back up your claim that 30% of men try gay sex.

No, r103, *we* are *not*. *We* don't care.

by Anonymousreply 104October 26, 2023 6:19 PM

Yup. It's Anscher. :D

by Anonymousreply 105October 26, 2023 6:20 PM

He was beautiful. My problem is not with him being straight. Why do they always turn to religion? He is a male model. Wins competitions and Mae West's attention, and yet still feels empty? And being a pastor was fulfilling? The fifties. Looking for love in all the wrong places.

by Anonymousreply 106October 26, 2023 6:27 PM

They were all willing to let other guys paw them or blow them. That's how they got work. If you posed in a gstring for other men to admire in the fitness mags, who do you think those admiring men were? The audience for those mags were closeted gay men. Do your homework.

by Anonymousreply 107October 26, 2023 6:43 PM

Mae West was ugly and tacky. Why was she popular? For being a bawdy old whore? That whole, "come up and see me sometime" schtick was sad for a woman that ugly.

by Anonymousreply 108October 26, 2023 6:44 PM

Is that a thimble in your pocket, r108, or are you just glad to see me?

by Anonymousreply 109October 26, 2023 6:51 PM

R107 SHUT UP. No. That’s not true. Welcome to adulthood and not porn fantasies. Not that I’d expect you to know. You live off your mother. You don’t know what it is to work hard.

by Anonymousreply 110October 26, 2023 8:26 PM

R110 New here, hon?

by Anonymousreply 111October 26, 2023 8:46 PM

R111 no retard. Hence how I know you’re an uneducated LOSER living off his mother.

by Anonymousreply 112October 26, 2023 8:48 PM

I can't hear you, I'm too busy getting blown by all the bodybuilders. You sound unhinged, doll. Time for your meds?

by Anonymousreply 113October 26, 2023 8:53 PM

I'm assuming that the legit physique magazines intended for straight guys didn't have full nudity. The fact that Dubois was willing to pose for a photo like R40 probably means he was willing to push the boundaries for extra money. I can't see how he didn't figure out that the photo was gay erotica. I suppose it's possible that the photographer convinced him that this was an art photo, like the statues and paintings of male nudes in art museums. Still I think he probably knew many gay men admired him and he wanted to make extra money with racier photos.

by Anonymousreply 114October 26, 2023 8:53 PM


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by Anonymousreply 115October 26, 2023 8:54 PM

r114, sometimes a posing strap would be painted on the nude photos. The buyer would then remove it.

by Anonymousreply 116October 26, 2023 8:59 PM

Vic Seipke joined the Detroit Fire Department right after high school. Wouldn't they have fired him if they knew he did photos with full frontal nudity? I guess they never found out. Pretty ballsy of him to pose for such photos.

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by Anonymousreply 117October 26, 2023 9:04 PM

I think they mention that in Thom Fitzgerald's movie "Beefcake", R116. Thanks for the info.

by Anonymousreply 118October 26, 2023 9:06 PM

Before the internet, communication between states and authorities was very different. You could move states, change you name and disappear.

by Anonymousreply 119October 26, 2023 9:06 PM

Seipke's widow was a wimp for not publishing the photo at R117 in his obituary 😆.

by Anonymousreply 120October 26, 2023 9:07 PM

A guy who shows dick in his youth becomes a Baptist deacon. That's HAWT.

by Anonymousreply 121October 26, 2023 9:09 PM

Adonis - The Art Magazine of the Male Physique (R15)

Sounds like gay erotica to me, not a mag for straight bodybuilders.

by Anonymousreply 122October 26, 2023 9:18 PM

Yeah guys were so dumb back then. They had ZERO idea of what and who they were modeling for. 🙄

by Anonymousreply 123October 26, 2023 9:20 PM

"Adonis" doesn't sound very butch.

by Anonymousreply 124October 26, 2023 9:21 PM

Well...it isn't Aphrodite.

by Anonymousreply 125October 26, 2023 9:25 PM

It doesn't need saying, but I would've wanted him in me, quite deeply.

by Anonymousreply 126October 26, 2023 11:51 PM

Joe Dallesandro still looked hot in the "Beefcake" movie. He was 50.

by Anonymousreply 127October 26, 2023 11:55 PM

Little Joe never once gave it away, r127.

by Anonymousreply 128October 26, 2023 11:56 PM

True, R128. He tried to capitalize on his looks (and services?). There's an old grainy black and white sex film of him but the quality is so poor, you can't even be sure it's him.

by Anonymousreply 129October 27, 2023 12:05 AM

They become Christers because they need some new form of discipline.

by Anonymousreply 130October 27, 2023 12:06 AM

It's him, r129...

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by Anonymousreply 131October 27, 2023 12:41 AM

Jesus, a lot of people on this thread need to get laid.

by Anonymousreply 132October 27, 2023 12:58 AM

I wonder how often he surrendered his ass.

by Anonymousreply 133October 27, 2023 1:41 AM

Bruce of Los Angeles

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by Anonymousreply 134October 27, 2023 3:56 AM


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by Anonymousreply 135October 27, 2023 4:11 AM

Ed Fury

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by Anonymousreply 136October 27, 2023 4:20 AM

Thanks R131.

by Anonymousreply 137October 27, 2023 4:57 AM

I think the fact Vic Seipke remained a fireman despite winning many top bodybuilding competitions and appearing on many mainstream body building magazine covers over the years proves my point that bodybuilding was never a really lucrative career in itself and doing dick pics was an easy way of making extra money. Quite brave of them also. Even if thEy were totally straight they knew their pic were wank material for other men. Another prick teaser, I mean favourite of mine was Larry Scott who always managed to give a good bulge shot. His family/ children have always stressed he never did nude photos (but they would say that wouldn’t they) . I often wish a pic of him showing his dick would come to light but it hasn’t yet (I can but wish). Sad to think back in the day at one point thousands of Bob Mizers photos were destroyed by the authorities. Now we regard them as a national treasure.

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by Anonymousreply 138October 27, 2023 10:17 AM

In some photos he seemed to have quite big gonads.

by Anonymousreply 139October 27, 2023 10:28 AM

I love this film. How anyone could be naive enough to believe it’s not homoerotic or Vic didn’t know what he was doing is laughable. No wonder his widow didn’t want any of this work remembered! I often wonder if he was bi (I hope) . Would love an elder gay to come forward with memories of feeling that body and dick. I was not born in this era, just I find the men stunning. I realise I’ve had it easy and that being gay at this time must have been a difficult lifestyle to choose.

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by Anonymousreply 140October 27, 2023 10:45 AM

Here's a good one

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by Anonymousreply 141October 27, 2023 11:51 AM

One more

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by Anonymousreply 142October 27, 2023 11:52 AM

That pussy be poppin

by Anonymousreply 143October 27, 2023 11:58 AM

Larry Scott is really hot, R138. If his swimsuit or undies are so skimpy that you can see a bit of bush, it's hard for me to believe it's not gay erotica. I really don't think straight guys are interested in that kind of thing.

Maybe bodybuilding is more lucrative today but from what little I've seen, the guys have bulging veins and they're such steroid-induced mountains of muscle, that they look really grotesque. No thanks.

My dream job at R141 - applying oil to a hot muscular guy.

by Anonymousreply 144October 27, 2023 12:51 PM

I love the sex with muscles

by Anonymousreply 145October 27, 2023 1:04 PM

Now I'm really curious how much a guy would be paid if he was featured in a legit bodybuilder magazine vs. dick pics.

Love Seipke's little posing pouch for his dick and balls at R140. Definitely gay erotica.

by Anonymousreply 146October 27, 2023 1:28 PM

Hot. I like the OP pic and R8 the bedt.

by Anonymousreply 147October 27, 2023 1:30 PM


by Anonymousreply 148October 27, 2023 2:16 PM

Gateau à bœuf.

by Anonymousreply 149October 27, 2023 2:28 PM

More Ed Fury.

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by Anonymousreply 150October 27, 2023 3:07 PM

R106 anyone can do whatever makes them happy. That’s the beauty of this country. You’re free to believe what you want and live your own life. If religion is what fulfilled him, more power to him.

by Anonymousreply 151October 27, 2023 3:14 PM

Larry's butt

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by Anonymousreply 152October 27, 2023 3:21 PM

Original poster here. I have not been feeling well and have also been busy so I was not able to catch up with the comments until today, but as an elder gentleman born in the 1950s, I need to address an issue I see happen a lot all over the internet these days. A lot of gay men these days like to look at the past with a modern-gay lens, which is something that ignites a lot of falsities and historical rewriting.

I have read numerous comments arguing that young men of the past must have known they were posing for gay erotica, and comments similar to that. That is actually not the case at all. I am trying to figure out how to explain this where it makes sense, but it’s hard.

Gay men were never a thought back then. We were not on anyone’s radar in a positive or even passive way. We were not allowed to be out and proud in the majority of this country and were kept hidden, and we were to keep our sexuality to ourselves or we could be arrested or worse. Yes, being gay was ILLEGAL in most of this country. It wasn’t just looked down upon. We had no representation because we couldn’t have it, so unlike today where you see LGBT characters in shows and movies and reality tv, and where we are allowed to be out and have jobs etc, we didn’t have that then. Because of this no one even thought of gays or lesbians etc. And if we were thought of it was about how disgusting we were, how immoral we were and we were walking sin that should be killed off. PS this was in the 60s and 70s!!! It was worse in the 50s.

So when a young man in 1952 who is pursuing a physique modeling career (a legit career back then) is asked to wear a G-String to show off his physique for either a magazine or art, he does it without thinking anything of it, because the job is to show off his physique. The idea that it could be used to get off gay men doesn’t even cross his mind because we weren’t on most people’s minds back then and it was for the better that way in ways FOR THE TIME, as sad as it is to say. A lot of those young men had no idea they were being used as jerk off material and thought they were just doing their jobs in modeling off their beautiful bodies.

A modern man would question it and feel it’s “gay” because gay is so mainstream and around now, but back then it was a very different thing. Gay is a “thing” now.

I hope I explained this well.

Also, we were not referred to as “gay” by straights back then.

by Anonymousreply 153October 27, 2023 3:30 PM

Yes, there are pics of Larry’s butt which means he was naked during the shoot. I often wondered if any frontal ones were taken by the photographers for their own ‘personal’ use so to speak. Nothing has surfaced yet. I find this pic of him quite homosexually provocative considering the times. He must have been aware.

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by Anonymousreply 154October 27, 2023 3:36 PM

R115 there is nothing “hmmm” about that. If I am selling something on eBay and call it gay that doesn’t mean it’s gay. It’s a photo that existed in a magazine. A magazine sold in stores. If it was known as “gay erotica” it wouldn’t have been sold in stores in 1950s, and the people behind it would be prosecuted.

by Anonymousreply 155October 27, 2023 3:38 PM

R117 and how would they find out? It was easy to not find out things about people back then. Like the Op said above, looking at the past with a modern lens.

The internet didn’t exist.

by Anonymousreply 156October 27, 2023 3:39 PM

VintageBeefcake, Vic Seipke and Ed Fury did nude photoshoots so they knew the score.

Maybe more than a few of the models came from poor backgrounds and had street smarts. They knew they were valued for their youth and beauty and by whom.

There are nude photos of Richard Dubois on this thread, although all you can see is butt. I assume those kind of photos weren't published in legit bodybuilder magazines intended for straight men. How could Dubois not know that it's erotica if he's asked to get completely naked?

by Anonymousreply 157October 27, 2023 3:43 PM

R157 Some of them knew because it was made known to them. Many didn’t know. Many just thought they were taking photos of their bodies because they were physique models. Creating art. Imagery like the Roman statues. This is the way things were sold to them back then. Many were naive to what was gay and what wasn’t because most just thought of gay as men preying on men, and sexual intercourse. Wearing a clothing item wasn’t “gay”. That’s a mentality that developed as we gained visibility.

by Anonymousreply 158October 27, 2023 3:55 PM

It depends on how widely Seipke's photos and film loops were distributed, R156. Not sure how that worked. Maybe some people knew but they liked Seipke and didn't want to make trouble for him. Or it's possible that everyone who knew him as a firefighter had no clue about his racy past.

by Anonymousreply 159October 27, 2023 4:19 PM

I don't know, VintageBeefcake. All Dubois had to do was flip through legit bodybuilder magazines and see that there was no full nudity (I assume) and put two and two together.

by Anonymousreply 160October 27, 2023 4:23 PM

My grandmother rented the upstairs rooms in her house to monthly boarders in the 50s and 60s.

Sometimes when we visited I slept in one of those rooms. In one of the dresser drawers I found several "physique" magazines and jerked off like a maniac to them.

I feel quite confident the man/men who left them there did as well.

by Anonymousreply 161October 27, 2023 4:24 PM

[quote]R153: Also, we were not referred to as “gay” by straights back then.

The term 'gay' has been used to refer to homosexuals since the middle to late 19th century.

[quote]Gay men were never a thought back then. We were not on anyone’s radar in a positive or even passive way.

[quote]We were not allowed to be out and proud in the majority of this country and were kept hidden, and we were to keep our sexuality to ourselves or we could be arrested or worse. Yes, being gay was ILLEGAL in most of this country.

These two statements are at contradictory tension with one another. One cannot be completely off anyone's radar and at the same time have authorities ready to pounce the second any of us were found.

We've been 'on their radar' cyclically since the 12th century (and even before, i.e. the Theodosian Code, and the Corpus Juris Civilis), when same-sex activity made it into the prohibitions in the Decretum Gratiani. So straights were thinking about us - a lot.

But there's never been any reason to think that the overall baseline numbers of people who harbored same-sex attraction has ever been any different. These have formed underground subcultures as necessary, and sponsored activities like nude male modeling. Even the straightest of body-building models would have been aware of where the money/opportunity was coming from, and although many might have never permitted men to touch them, the fact that they took the work and continued in it can be seen as tacit acceptance of the fact that gay men were their sponsoring constituency. Anyone who insists that male modeling was largely innocent of same-sex interest is in serious denial.

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by Anonymousreply 162October 28, 2023 3:38 PM

R162 they called us queer. Not gay. We called ourselves gay. Not OP but he’s right.

by Anonymousreply 163October 28, 2023 4:17 PM

R162 PS using a different account doesn’t change that I know who you are. Mr. “Born in 2005”. Mr. No Job. Mr. No Education.

Stop trying to argue about things that are out of your pay grade. You don’t tell a man who grew up in the 50s or 60s or 70s how things were back then when you weren’t even there. Show some respect and go ask mom to make you food. Loser.

by Anonymousreply 164October 28, 2023 4:19 PM

Anyone who knows the time period knows gays were hidden and kept away. You were not allowed to be out and proud in 1952. Even LA. Gays moved to San Francisco because there they could be overall.

The only thing that was known of “the homosexual” was that we were sick, perverse, pedophiles, rapists of men, etc. they literally showed “Beware The Homosexual” videos in schools and to parents so they are aware we are out there lurking, waiting to prey on their young sons. THIS was the mentality about gay men then. THIS was the reality. Not the bullshit one some posters here like to create where straight men were thinking about what gay erotica is.

by Anonymousreply 165October 28, 2023 4:23 PM

Riiiight, R164. Straight men in the 50s and 60s were so naive they didn't know that posing pouches that barely covered their genitals or going fully nude was erotica. So easy to take advantage of these country bumpkins who moved to L.A.

by Anonymousreply 166October 28, 2023 4:24 PM

VintageBeefcake didn't interview these bodybuilders so he wouldn't know what they thought. He wants to assume they were so innocent.

by Anonymousreply 167October 28, 2023 4:26 PM

Didn't we have a DuBois on DL in olden times who was the ex of someone here and took a lot abuse? He was French Canadian though

by Anonymousreply 168October 28, 2023 4:40 PM

Blanche, r168.

by Anonymousreply 169October 28, 2023 4:45 PM

It doesn't matter how much exposure gays had in the media. A straight guy can easily tell when a gay photographer is sexually attracted him. He can easily figure out what's going on.

by Anonymousreply 170October 28, 2023 5:05 PM

R166 a clothing item has nothing to do with sexuality. If you’re posing as a physique model wearing a G-String to show off the physique without being fully nude makes complete sense.

And gay men were not on people’s minds then. The minute we were things became gay. Men used to shower together and were even affectionate with one another. Once gay men became more and more public that’s when things turned “gay” and straight men no longer would do them. Welcome to REAL LIFE.

by Anonymousreply 171October 28, 2023 5:57 PM

R170 lmao a professional photographer taking photos of a model has nothing to do with attraction. Jesus. You’re reaching for anything now. What a retard.

by Anonymousreply 172October 28, 2023 5:58 PM

[quote]R163: they called us queer. Not gay. We called ourselves gay. Not OP but he’s right.

Assertions are insufficient. Use sources to support your claims, like I did. 'Gay' has been in use since the 19th century.

[quote]R164: using a different account doesn’t change that I know who you are.

This is my only account. Address yourself to what 𝐼 𝑠𝑎𝑖𝑑 at R162, instead of evading the point by pretending to claim I use socks.

[quote]Stop trying to argue about things that are out of your pay grade. You don’t tell a man who grew up in the 50s or 60s or 70s how things were back then when you weren’t even there.

This statement encapsulates the Anscher approach to epistemology: Never use sources, and only appeal to purported personal experience. (And I'm pretty sure that, by saying this, you're claiming to be the same person as the OP - an admission of sockpuppetry. Barring such an admission, you 𝑐𝑎𝑛𝑛𝑜𝑡 𝑘𝑛𝑜𝑤 anything about VintageBeefcake's age, experience, etc.)

I happen to have been born in 1964, but it hardly matters to the argument, because one can learn 𝑎𝑛𝑦𝑡ℎ𝑖𝑛𝑔 from research, from sources. Unlike you, I do not base any assertion I make on who I am, but on reliable factual sources. It's why you fare so badly in the scriptural discussions.

[quote]R165: Anyone who knows the time period

The one thing you've made perfectly clear is that you don't.

by Anonymousreply 173October 28, 2023 8:40 PM

[quote]R170 lmao a professional photographer taking photos of a model has nothing to do with attraction. Jesus. You’re reaching for anything now. What a retard.

Riiight. There would be no difference in the vibe between a straight photographer who has zero sexual interest in a model and a gay photographer who thinks the model is really hot. The model wouldn't pick up on that. Interesting.

Not that long ago, we had a thread about straight guys who picked up that you were attracted to them and reacted in an obnoxious way. I guess it was pure fiction. Thanks for enlightening me.

by Anonymousreply 174October 28, 2023 8:52 PM


Trolls be trolling.

by Anonymousreply 175October 28, 2023 8:54 PM

r173 - Gay may go back (see Cary in BVringing Up Baby) , PD, but the pejoratives queer, faggot and fairy were the go-to epithets.

by Anonymousreply 176October 28, 2023 8:57 PM


by Anonymousreply 177October 28, 2023 8:57 PM

Oh, and homo.

by Anonymousreply 178October 28, 2023 8:59 PM

R173, for your information, from LGBTQ Nation:

Merriam-Webster‘s theory is that gay-as-in-rakish led to the slang term “gaycat,” which referred to a young male hobo who worked with an older male hobo and may have had a sexual relationship with him. They cite a 1935 “handbook of underworld and prison slang” that includes an entry on the word “geycat,” defined as “a homosexual boy.”

But it’s possible that gay-as-in-rakish, with it’s antonym “straight,” came to mean “homosexual” through another queer subculture in the early 20th century.

Some of the first written uses of the word gay to unambiguously mean “homosexual” appear in the early 1950’s, which means that it was probably already slang among some gay people earlier than that. It appeared in books for gay people and occasionally in books written for straight audiences in the 1950’s and 1960’s, but the “merry” definition dominated while the “homosexual” meaning remained slang.

It wasn’t until Stonewall, the birth of the Gay Liberation Front, and increased gay visibility in the late 1960’s and 1970’s that the “homosexual” meaning became widely known. At the same time, the “happy” definition of the term fell out of usage.

by Anonymousreply 179October 28, 2023 9:00 PM

Yup, R171. A tiny, flimsy posing pouch which just barely covers the genitals and leaves some pubes exposed and which allows a viewer of the photo to make out the outline of the model's penis and testicles has absolutely nothing to do with erotica. A straight guy wouldn't be embarrassed to look at such a photo because str8 men are as obsessed with dicks and balls as gay men. It all makes sense now.

Thanks R171 🙄.

by Anonymousreply 180October 28, 2023 9:01 PM

R176 & co, we weren't discussing "epithets." You're moving the goalposts.

R179, I'm not seeing a link. Just assertions.

by Anonymousreply 181October 28, 2023 9:03 PM

r181 I was responding to your response to this...

[quote][R163]: they called us queer. Not gay. We called ourselves gay. Not OP but he’s right.

"Assertions are insufficient. Use sources to support your claims, like I did. 'Gay' has been in use since the 19th century."

by Anonymousreply 182October 28, 2023 9:08 PM

Right R171. Nothing homoerotic about the Seipke video at R140 at the 1:45 mark. Nothing homoerotic at the 3:00 mark, where you can make out his willy. Just a regular bodybuilder video. Just a dude flexing his muscles.

by Anonymousreply 183October 28, 2023 9:14 PM

R182, did you fail to see the link at R162?

by Anonymousreply 184October 28, 2023 9:16 PM

Henri Moolenaar by Arax

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by Anonymousreply 185October 28, 2023 9:56 PM

[171] you are wide of the mark. It was illegal to photograph a naked man full frontal it was illegal to show cock. The only way these photographers could try and get round the censorship laws was to call them artistic and pose them like Greek statues. Even then they didn’t always get away with it.. the posing pouch was the nearest they could get to naked . The same as a stiff cock was a criminal offence to photograph.

by Anonymousreply 186October 29, 2023 6:58 PM

R186 yes and the photographer knows his intentions. The PHYSIQUE MODELS just think he’s taking the photos he was hired to take of THEIR PHYSIQUES. What isn’t registering? Why don’t you sign off of here and go sign up for some schooling? You’re highly uneducated in all things yet choose to argue with educated men daily.

by Anonymousreply 187October 29, 2023 7:31 PM

The issue is there were legit physique models who were all about body building and competing and showing their bodies but not fully nude and then there were the “physique models” who were doing nudity (it was illegal) and nude flicks etc. The latter tainted it all for the rest of them. Dubois did some questionable photos but he never crossed the line into full nude model and never did those flicks some of his peers were doing. His goal was to be at the top of the physique world and he was starting to dominate when he decided to leave it behind.

by Anonymousreply 188October 29, 2023 7:50 PM

An old one of Richard Dubois. A little bit repetitive but quite nice.

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by Anonymousreply 189October 30, 2023 12:08 PM

He's going by Dick Dubois. Therefore, it's porn.


by Anonymousreply 190October 30, 2023 12:10 PM

This queen is consistent, at least.

by Anonymousreply 191October 30, 2023 12:30 PM

R108- She wasn’t ugly. She was average looking.

by Anonymousreply 192October 30, 2023 12:40 PM

Unlike most faggots I don’t worship BUILDS

I like slim guys with natural bodies-

No tattoos

No Piercings

No Rings

No Shaved 🪒 Pubic Hair.

Thanks ☺️.

by Anonymousreply 193October 30, 2023 12:42 PM

Miss R193 has stated her boundaries!!!!

by Anonymousreply 194October 30, 2023 2:34 PM

It boggles my mind that there are actually people posting here that think the men posing here had no idea what and who they were posing for. It's pretty hysterical. I will say it was a lot more discreet back then, if not discreet under the radar.

by Anonymousreply 195October 30, 2023 2:39 PM

R195 LET IT GO. IT WAS A DIFFERENT TIME. You can’t seem to understand or respect that.

by Anonymousreply 196October 30, 2023 7:06 PM

Lolz of course they knew.

by Anonymousreply 197October 30, 2023 7:09 PM

You're wrong. I can respect it was a different time. That's why it was somewhat easier for them to pose like that than, believe it not, today. Those who bought those magazines had to go out and specifically look for them. You didn't log on and see who was posing for them in someone's timeline. To say they were unaware of gay men who liked those photos weren't the target demographic is ridiculous. One of the most ridiculous things I've read on Datalounge. I love the pictures and their "from a different time", undercurrent of gay dollar power makes me like them more. For fucks sake even Arnold did his nudies for money before he was overly famous. You think a gay man never paid him for some worship or cock suck? Good lord. You sound like a frau Rock Hudson fan who was shocked when he was nailed as gay. What is the need to pretend these men didn't know?

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by Anonymousreply 198October 30, 2023 7:14 PM

Gee, who's possibly going to be interested in this photo?

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by Anonymousreply 199October 30, 2023 7:15 PM

Very nice. I don't know who this is. This is art not erotica.

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by Anonymousreply 200October 30, 2023 9:47 PM

Do not ask how I got this, but I was able to obtain a photo (or more) of his son. This is what he looks like as of recent I heard, and he’s 62 now. Handsome man.

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by Anonymousreply 201December 4, 2023 3:58 AM

It’s almost as if some posters are offended by the idea that someone they’ve whacked off to had sucked a dick at some point.

by Anonymousreply 202December 4, 2023 4:37 AM

R202 move on.

by Anonymousreply 203December 4, 2023 5:28 AM

Too bad such an interesting thread got highjacked into a flame war. Anyway, Dubois was handsome, although a little too boyish for my taste. Seipke was gorgeous. My personal favorite from that era - definitely a Bob Mizer type, not a semi-respectable "physique" type - is Don Deckman. I think he's dreamy, maybe because, unlike most of these models, he had a little hair on his chest.

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by Anonymousreply 204December 4, 2023 7:37 AM

Dubois also did some work under the named Richard Sabre.

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by Anonymousreply 205December 4, 2023 8:21 AM

R200 It's model Stan Girgosian by photographer, Bob Mizer, from 1950. It's included in this little photo retrospective on Mizer's work. There's one of DuBois as well.

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by Anonymousreply 206December 4, 2023 10:59 PM

Oh please, Married or not, you know he sucked a lot of cock.

by Anonymousreply 207December 4, 2023 11:06 PM

If anything happened, he probably didn't do the sucking. It would more than likely be some gay guy worshiping him.

by Anonymousreply 208December 5, 2023 12:42 AM

[quote]YThose who bought those magazines had to go out and specifically look for them.

You are wrong. You do not know what you are talking about.

In my small NJ town our local stationary store had a couple of those beefcake magazines displayed every month along with Life, Look, Time and all thither magazines including the Mad Magazines and Motortrend magazines I bought every month. This was the early 1960s.

It is impossible to explain to young people today how different the mentality was back then.

by Anonymousreply 209December 5, 2023 1:22 AM

Oh and BTW, I bought a few of them at 13-14 years old.

by Anonymousreply 210December 5, 2023 1:27 AM

R210 sure.

by Anonymousreply 211December 5, 2023 1:32 AM

^Explain why you doubt that. (Show us once again how little you know)

"During their heyday in North America in the 1950s to 1960s, they were presented as magazines dedicated to fitness, health, and bodybuilding..."

by Anonymousreply 212December 5, 2023 1:55 AM

His son is actually very handsome and in his 60s but looks younger. Not nearly as hot as his dad was but he came out handsome. He didn’t get his father’s tall height though. He’s tall but like like his dad. He was 5’10 or so. I met him about a year ago. He lives in Tennessee.

by Anonymousreply 213December 5, 2023 2:02 AM

Bob Mizer was a visionary and brave soul.

by Anonymousreply 214December 12, 2023 5:56 PM

As a young teen in the early '60s, I remember looking at those beefcake magazines in a magazine shop in Boston's Park Square. These were located near the back of the shop but were clearly on display. Of course, I couldn't buy any of the magazines, but no one stopped me from browsing. I'd return home and jerk off to the memory of what I had seen. As Vintage Beefcake has stated, I thought these were legitimate physique mags for a straight audience and that I had somehow perverted them for my own needs. Sad.

by Anonymousreply 215December 12, 2023 7:45 PM

He was a horny pornographer, R214. Like many horny pornographers before and since, he captured images that are still hot to this day. I'm grateful to him for doing so, but let's not turn him into some of kind of saint or hero.

by Anonymousreply 216December 12, 2023 11:41 PM
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