How did we get to this point?

“First, I want to say that I am not antisemitic, but I am a proud anti-Zionist. Now that I’ve performatively checked that box, please allow me to explain why the largest pogrom since WW2 is actually the Jews’ fault.”

Yes, this was a huge wake up call for me that the ones I stand with on the left, against the white supremacists and Nazis, many of them don’t stand for me. They’d never admit their antisemitism. But have they said a word ever about the occupation or about Palestinians before now? Nope. Because they don’t care. They care now that they can celebrate the destruction of Israelis and Jews. They don’t even realize it. But if they were truly the Palestinian champions they were, we wouldn’t be hearing from them for the first time about a decades-old conflict. Now that they can justify what’s happened, here they are. They gloss over deaths of children at best. In fact, for the last 20 years, the only people on the left I ever heard advocating for Palestinian self-determination were from Jewish organizations like 'Jewish Voices for Peace'.

I now realize that the people I work side by side with to make sure people of all races and ethnicities and backgrounds have equal access to basic human rights and to dismantle our system of white supremacy, in the end those same people don’t include me and other Jews. I don’t know how to move forward. A united collective is how we deal with the hate and oppression of ALL marginalized people. Including Palestinians. But I’m trying to unite with people who would easily brush off violence against me if it came to that.

It seems now that the left calls everyone a Nazi but ACTUAL Nazis. They are now calling Israelis Nazis, many who are descendents of of Holocaust survivors! That to me is about as sick and cruel as you can get.

And yes, it pains me that seemingly the only groups left advocating for Israelis (that aren't expected to like US government officials and mainstream media outlets) are right-wing Christians—especially because Jews know that their support is wholly predicated on the fact that they need Israel to bring about the "second coming" and that it's far more likely to happen if Israel goes to war. Basically, they support Israel, so that Jews will die.

Nonsense. Both the far right and the far left hated Jews. Nothing has changed. It's just we have people like you that amplify that the far left hates Jews while ignoring the far right. How soon y'all forgot Charlottesville. How many leftists were in that torchlight parade? (HINT: none)

R3 Thanks for deflecting. My point is that I always thought, wrongly apparently, that the left was above this.

I would say that the left is for staking out more nuanced positions. (I'm not talking about the far left, because who knows those people or what they believe). As in so many other world situations, all is not black and white, good guys and bad guys as the right wing generally paints history. Left wing people tend to want to hear the whole story and to learn the whole truth, even when it is unpleasant.

One can simultaneously believe that A). Hamas's attack on innocent Israelis and the slaughter of women and children was absolutely horrific, cowardly, and morally repugnant and B) that the Israeli government has put Palestinians in an untenable position - they can't work, they can't travel, they can't truly own land since if an Israeli wants it, he is likely to take it.

One can simultaneously believe that A) The Jews deserve a place on this planet where they aren't in danger of being attacked or wiped out and B) Palestinians were not consulted about giving up their homes and lands in 1947-1948 for the Jewish people to have a home

One can simultaneously believe that A) Jews have a long history of standing up for oppressed people everywhere - including black people in the deep South, when very few white people would stick out their necks for them and B) The Israeli government is guilty of oppressing Palestinians in a number of ways, including simple right of passage between Palestinian towns in the West Bank

One can simultaneously believe that A) The Jews have a right to protect themselves and their homes from attack and to defend their land and B) The methods used in that defense over the past 70 years have not solved the problem and in fact have often made things worse.

I don't think there is anything in those positions which marks me out as an anti-semite. I know and socialize with many Jews, some of whom are among my dearest friends, and I don't actually know any Palestinians. To me, what I have written above just states the truth as I understand it, and the difficulties and contradictions of the fraught Palestinian-Israeli history

R5 Except that this situation is wildly different, don’t you think? Weren’t Native Americans thrown off their land and moved onto reservations? Yup. Do you see them setting off bombs in major US cities or trying to otherwise mass murder those of European descent? Nope! You have to admit there is something different about Muslims.

You can always tell when Zionists think they might be losing control of the narrative. They’ll start five hundred threads and claim in each one that criticism of Israel is anti-semitism.

R7 Who said it’s about Zionists?

Long story.

Well, we all have some sad story. The Jews of today have nothing to do with the Hebrews of Moses. Israel is a modern creation. America needs a political ally and that's why we need that slit of land to be on our side.

[quote]One can simultaneously believe that A) The Jews deserve a place on this planet where they aren't in danger of being attacked or wiped out and B) Palestinians were not consulted about giving up their homes and lands in 1947-1948 for the Jewish people to have a home

Everyone ALWAYS forgets B. Palestinians were pushed out of the way so that land that, /in some random religious text/ was supposed to have been occupied by Jews, could be given "back" to them. It doesn't excuse any violence, but Jewish people had no right to claim that land. It was never theirs. Even in their book they slaughtered the inhabitants before they occupied it. It isn't their homeland.

[quote][R7] Who said it’s about Zionists?

Duh

R11 You do know though that Arabs aren’t native to that land, right? They invaded later on.

Trump attacks Israel and praises Hezbollah. So stop whining about "the left"

The far left doesn't hate "the Jews ."

Why don't you fuck off?

R15 The far left is too busy whining over pronouns to care about Jews.

It's a bizarre accident of history that the Palestinian liberation movement started out as a secular ultra-left-wing movement by groups like the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine way back in the 1960s, back when most of the terrorism committed in the world was by leftist groups. They all operated under a common leftist anti-colonial, anti-imperialist ideology. And this is why till this day, Palestinian Arabs still talk in these outdated leftist terms, like "colonialism" and "imperialism".

But over time, the Palestinian liberation movement was slowly taken over by ultra-right-wing religious fanatics like Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad and Hamas. Then the Cold War ended, and leftist terrorism gave way to right-wing terrorism. But even though the Palestinian liberation groups went ultra-conservative, the movement, for whatever strange reason, is still seen by many on the left as a left-wing movement. That's why today we are left with this absolutely bizarre joining of common cause between human rights groups like LGBT groups, feminist groups, secular Marxist groups, left-wing university campus groups, amnesty international, et al. with ultra-right-wing conservative theocratic fanatical religious terror organizations, the members of which would be more than happy to do away with the LGBT, feminist and other left-wing human and civil rights groups. It's like if Martin Luther King decided to make common cause with George Wallace, because he could empathize with Wallace's struggle to keep the South white. Truly, truly head-scratching.

R5/menluvinguy, well put. But you know who you're talking to, right? Whose thread this is?

[quote]Native Americans thrown off their land and moved onto reservations? Yup. Do you see them setting off bombs in major US cities or trying to otherwise mass murder those of European descent? Nope! You have to admit there is something different about Muslims.

Yes, Because Native Americans don't have an organized religion or silly books about sky fairies like the Bible Torah or Koran.

R15 has a lovely post history:

[quote]I picked up 10 big fat black trannies With cheap shorts from Wal Mart barely covering their fannies I decorated with bows Dem niggardly hoes And presented them all to their grannies

We have a regular Sylvia Plath on our hands.

I never wrote anything like that, you disgusting asshole.

You disgusting lying piece of shit.

R4

Hitler was Right and Stalin was Left. Two of the greatest butchers in modern history. And you think the lefties are all Barbies full of love for all mankind esp the Jews?.

R22 yes, I’ve learned that the far right and far left aren’t all that different.

[quote]You do know though that Arabs aren’t native to that land, right?

They were already established.

Jews could have stayed in their respective countries.

R24 There were Jews there the entire time as well. Not in large numbers, but they were there. And you do know that there was a holocaust, right? Some Jews did stay in their respective countries, but would you want to stay there after that?

[quote]Now here we are in late 2023, and the far left hates the Jews

This simply isn't true (apart from a few psychotic idiots which can be found on social media). The statement is similar to claiming that criticizing the decisions and actions of the Israeli government is anti-Sematic. Perhaps that's where the confusion is coming from. Granted that some people on the far left are clearly batshit crazy and unrealistic - but most seem to loathe the situation - not the people of Israel or the people of Palestine. If anything the seem to want to fix the situation so everything can live peacefully and prosper. But if criticism of the Israeli government and the IDF is seen as anti-Semitism then there is absolutely nowhere to go with this discussion.

This has become another issue which has been encouraged and had a lot of time and effort put into having people divided into groups of strictly "for" and strictly "against" so that those people can be demonized by the other group. In 2023 everyone is constantly looking for ways to put other people into groups of for and against all issues. It's constant.

There is this recurring, wildly misinformed notion I keep reading and hearing over and over again that the Arabs were driven into exile to make way for the Jews in 1948.

What actually happened, if we want to be accurate, is that the Arab League decided to wage war against the burgeoning state of Israel, assumed it would mass murder them all and take the land, TOLD ITS OWN PEOPLE to flee 'temporarily' to get away from the violence and promised them a return upon their victory. And then they did not win the war, and there were hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who had no home to come back to. Another 30,000 wealthy Palestinians fled on their own to outside Arab territory, wanting to avoid the war. All in all, only a handful were made to leave by the Jews after the war (which again, was started by the Arab League), and all from cities within the boundaries of the Jewish State under the UN partition scheme.

The reason the Arab League waged this war: The UN partition that was brought to both Arabs and Jews for CONSIDERATION was so abhorrent for Arab Palestinians that they started riots and killing Jews en masse. Israel wasn't even a thing yet, this was still during the British mandate, which makes it even crazier considering Palestinian supporters will say that Jews and Arabs lived together peacefully during this time. But the mere IDEA of Jewish people getting their own state, only a few years after enduring the Holocaust, was so unthinkable they began mass murdering Jews. The Arab government at the time even condemned objectors to the mass Jewish slaughters: "Keep away the cowards who wish to flee. Expel them from your lines. Despise them, because they harm more than the enemy"

So yes, it's true that they lost their homes, but to imply it was "bcuz the greedy Jews forced them all to leave at gunpoint!" is just fundamentally wrong. Had the Arab League peacefully accepted the UN partition in 1947, there would have never been a single Palestinian refugee, and there would be an independent Palestinian state beside Israel today, with all of the original land it was promised.

Moreover, stating that X number of Arabs were displaced (actually 472,000 as opposed to the roughly 700,000-1 million claimed by most Palestinians*) without also stating how many Jews were expelled from the surrounding Arab countries (820,000) is highly misleading. Especially when far more Jews were displaced, and did not displace themselves to facilitate genocide. And unlike the 360,000 Palestinian refugees that received aid, the Jewish refugees received no aid at all from the Arab countries that confiscated all of their worldly belongings and expelled them. Also consider that the Jewish refugees were forced to travel hundreds, in some cases even thousands of miles to a tiny country whose inhabitants spoke a different language, with nothing but the shirts on their backs. Most Arab refugees never left Palestine at all— they traveled a few miles to the other side of the truce line, remaining inside the same Arab nation that they were part of linguistically, culturally and ethnically.

*Many Arabs claim that 800,000 to 1,000,000 Palestinians became refugees in 1947-49. The last census was taken by the British in 1945. It found approximately 1.2 million permanent Arab residents in all of Palestine. A 1949 Government of Israel census counted 160,000 Arabs living in the country after the war. In 1947, a total of 809,100 Arabs lived in the same area. This meant no more than 650,000 Palestinian Arabs could have become refugees. A report by the UN Mediator on Palestine arrived at an even lower figure of 472,000, and calculated that only about 360,000 Arab refugees required aid.

Hotseshit.

Exactly, R27. The Palestinians are responsible for their own plight.

Plus, Palestinians love Hamas's.barbaric actions.against Jews.

[quote]Plus, Palestinians love Hamas's.barbaric actions.against Jews.

R29 - the article says, "Some Palestinians are finding it hard to denounce attacks on Israel"

SOME

R17; that’s a good explanation. I would also add Israel’s turn from socialism to a right wing governments influenced heavily by the religious right.

Also the left has been involved in the victim Olympics for years in the US. Remember the marches against genocide of black trans women (about 20 killed a year in the US is considered genocide.)

R4

One of the funniest recent posts made on DL by a self described liberal progressive went something like this

(The right and those that vote right are full of haters. They should all die)

They were not talking about the Nazis of 1943 but fellow Americans in 2023. Idiocy and hate can be found in a lot of places.

R17's explanation is the best in this thread

And R27 thank you for that great history lesson, it is much needed here and elsewhere, I wish more posters were as well informed

[quote] I’ve learned that the far right and far left aren’t all that different.

R23 Exactly, there's a term for it - "horseshoe theory"

I'm anti zionist is the equivalent of some of my best friends are black.

Far right conservative churches in the South were praying almighty for Israel at services. Far left universities in the North were praising the killing of Jews by Hamas.

There are lots of reasons for this, of course.

The Palestinians have had great PR in transforming their image into that of "The Oppressed Minority."

The Far and Not So Far Left will always side with that category. It also accounts for their aggressive support of "Transgenders."

The main reason right wingers suddenly love Jewish people is that they believe in some weird biblical conspiracy theories from the 1870s that say in order for Jesus to come back and float them naked up to heaven, he needs Israel as a magical landing strip. Otherwise Jesus won't see his shadow and start smiting everyone they don't like. I don't know any leftwingers who hate Jews. Hate Bibi and Kissinger? Yes. Jewish people in general? No.

OK that's why they love them. Now tell me why the left hates them.

R27, I've tried to tell this! Basically, in 1948 the Arab residents in the area now declared as Israel made a bad bet, to wit:

They left, being certain the 5 Arab nations planning to kill Israel in its crib would be victorious, and they, the Arab evacuees, could and would return.

Oops!

R38. I'd need some examples. Noticing that the Israeli government is an authoritarian cluster fuck, isn't "hating Jews".

The right is siding with Israel because Benjamin Netanyahu hates Democrats. Remember when he snubbed Obama? The man is a far right winger in his own country. He's facing criminal charges just like Trump.

Sometimes the simplest answer is the correct one.

[quote]How did we get to this point?

I often wonder this same thing. Remember when Republicans hated Russia?

R3, how many babies did the tiki torch twits butcher in their cribs?

R41

And just watch how much he hates Dems tomorrow when Mighty Joe shows up.

Yep, MAGA going to be all over the place complaining that Biden went there. The whine about how he's not strong, then when he proves them wrong, they change the narrative and say it's just for shoe.

R42

You must be really old or a history major. Yes back in the day the republicans stood strong against Russia. The Gipper must be distraught.

But the reality of life is, if Hamas had come out in favor of broad gay rights and gay marriage two weeks ago many on this forum would be standing up for those freedom loving Hamas freedom fighters today. And it would be fuck those homophobic Jews.

Humans are in general kind of predictable

R6, you know very little about the history of the American West. There were many terrifying massacres on both sides. Nobody blew things up because dynamite wasn’t invented until the time of the American Civil War. A lot of tribes were simply exterminated.

You missed R6's point. There were and still are Native Americans living on reservations right by small towns. They did not hold on to the anger for 200 years like it seems palestinians plan to do. We do have dynamite now, none of them have become suicide bombers. They didnt hook up with some home grown terrorist group and start launching rockets or going on a modern day murderous rampage.

R48

We killed the national e Americans in extremely large numbers then we bought off those we did not kill. Health care, welfare, ADC, and an implied promise of safety even self govt on the res and absolute full rights the same as any other American. Native Americans can vote in the US.

The res are also spread out in rural areas. If an urban area was full of 100,000s of young native Americans you might see more unrest.

[quote]then when he proves them wrong, they change the narrative and say it's just for shoe.

R45 = Ed Sullivan

Blame it on Trump

[quote]If an urban area was full of 100,000s of young native Americans you might see more unrest.

Doubt it, not in their nature. Not anymore than 100,000 white people type of problems. It's still a huge leap to suicide bombing and killing sprees. They don't fail to recognize the white man. They at leas acknowledge reality. They dont celebrate violence like you see happened over in Gaza. And they dont make their wives and daughters dress up in the hot sun under a black burka.

Different cultures have different attitudes, beliefs and behaviors, that's a fact. Why pretend everyone would do the same in the same situation? That is actually a very dishonest pretense.

R52

I said you might see more unrest in an urban area. You claim we would not. The fact is the native Americans were bought off with the promise of full rights as an American and lots and lots of tax payer support.

Without that full rights and without lots and lots of tax payer support you would see violence. And lots of it if they were all living in urban areas.

"not in their nature"

LOL I love the lefts soft racism🙄

Has crazy pants Matt A. chimed in yet?

Believe it or not, some smart people have gotten together and defined antisemitism and what is not antisemitic.

C. Israel and Palestine: examples that, on the face of it, are not antisemitic

(whether or not one approves of the view or action)

Supporting the Palestinian demand for justice and the full grant of their political, national, civil and human rights, as encapsulated in international law.

Criticizing or opposing Zionism as a form of nationalism, or arguing for a variety of constitutional arrangements for Jews and Palestinians in the area between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean. It is not antisemitic to support arrangements that accord full equality to all inhabitants “between the river and the sea,” whether in two states, a binational state, unitary democratic state, federal state, or in whatever form.

Evidence-based criticism of Israel as a state. This includes its institutions and founding principles. It also includes its policies and practices, domestic and abroad, such as the conduct of Israel in the West Bank and Gaza, the role Israel plays in the region, or any other way in which, as a state, it influences events in the world. It is not antisemitic to point out systematic racial discrimination. In general, the same norms of debate that apply to other states and to other conflicts over national self-determination apply in the case of Israel and Palestine. Thus, even if contentious, it is not antisemitic, in and of itself, to compare Israel with other historical cases, including settler-colonialism or apartheid.

Boycott, divestment and sanctions are commonplace, non-violent forms of political protest against states. In the Israeli case they are not, in and of themselves, antisemitic.

Political speech does not have to be measured, proportional, tempered, or reasonable to be protected under Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights or Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights and other human rights instruments. Criticism that some may see as excessive or contentious, or as reflecting a “double standard,” is not, in and of itself, antisemitic. In general, the line between antisemitic and non-antisemitic speech is different from the line between unreasonable and reasonable speech.

R56 That is one (which by the way was also written alongside Palestinian activists), but not the only one. There is also the IHRA's definition, which is far more widely accepted and applied.

Contemporary examples of antisemitism in public life, the media, schools, the workplace, and in the religious sphere could, taking into account the overall context, include, but are not limited to:

Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion.

Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.

Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews.

Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II (the Holocaust).

Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.

Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.

Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.

Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.

Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.

Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.

Antisemitic acts are criminal when they are so defined by law (for example, denial of the Holocaust or distribution of antisemitic materials in some countries).

Criminal acts are antisemitic when the targets of attacks, whether they are people or property – such as buildings, schools, places of worship and cemeteries – are selected because they are, or are perceived to be, Jewish or linked to Jews.

Antisemitic discrimination is the denial to Jews of opportunities or services available to others and is illegal in many countries.

R57 yeah the IHRA one has been around for years, and is the generally accepted standard for good reason.

No sense in trying to reinvent something that already works

Masks are slipping, but this is only a peek at what they actually think.

R26 I think a better question is why are so many on the left suddenly pretending to care about Palestinians?

Good point OP. I k ow far left highly educated, albeit Marxist academics who call themselves feminists, support LGBT,BLM etc yet are pro Palestine- supporting misogynistic, racist ain't it dear " progressives"

What is the argument for these far left liberals in their support of Palestine? Has anyone taken time to decipher their arguments ? or are you all jumping the gun and name calling , slandering anyone , calling them antisemite if they show concern for human life ?

R62, Read the thread(s). Plenty of answers for you.

The one sticking point, Dear, is that the "far left liberals[']" "concern for human life" is never about the innocent Israelis (or others around the world subject to pro-Palestinian terror groups' bombings, hijackings, kidnappings, etc.), never any rallies or picketing or parades; oh, no.

The signs and shouts and demands and hand-wringing and pity surface ONLY about Palestinians and usually ONLY SUBSEQUENT TO yet another pro-Palestinian terrorist attack swiftly followed by an Israeli counter-attack.

THEN they're all "Those mean Jews! Yes, some died. But that's because....territory! How dare they serve violence in return to the poor, beleaguered Palestinians who oddly enough are despised by their true Arab brethren?!"

🎻

Since OP's position is laughingly reductionist, I'll go down that path, as well.

The right supports Israel because, according to evangelical orthodoxy, Jesus's return and god's heaven on earth cannot happen until Jewish people have complete control of the promised land. The rapture can't happen as long as Jewish people fully reclaim the promised land. This is why the rightwing fundie nutbags support Israel - whether they know it or are simply going along with the fundie nutbag party line.

I’m not a fan of murder, regardless of the ethnicity of the murderer.

Interesting how OP shifts from "far left" in OP to just "left" in R4. There are all kinds of crazies supporting Hamas, Putin, etc. who somehow pass for "left" because they make a lot of noise against capitalism, but ultimately they're just chaos agents like Steve Bannon or whoever, with no practical commitment to equality and justice. The majority of the left is not extreme, does not support Hamas, and doesn't have anywhere near the bigotry of the MAINSTREAM of the right (who claim the US is a "Christian country" and support a guy who sees "good people on both sides").

The Rethugs are jonesing to drag Biden into an unpopular, costly war to taint his Presidency. That's how they operate.

[quote]"not in their nature" LOL I love the lefts soft racism🙄

I am about 33% Native American jackass, I think I can talk about my culture anyway I want without being called a racist.

People make it sound like Native Americans got all this money and right were "bought off". That's a white mans perspective. In reality, the reservation that Native Americans were forced onto was the worst land in their territory. Poor hunting, lack of water, horrible soil for crops, climate etc. Voting right was not the thing top of their list at the time. Even today, most tribes are very low income. Everyone thinks they all own casinos but the truth is that's only a handful of tribes that figured that out as a way to survive.

How does Putin "support Hamas" exactly

On “Lefties Losing It”: Queers for Palestine!

For r69:

For r69:

For r69:

I think most Americans don't even think about Judaism as much as posters like OP thinks everybody does. They're just one of many different types of people on this globe.

Far right hates us more than they hate Jews. Tjat's not a winning hand for Iszael.

I must be stupid but I don't understand your point R75.

It's Iran who is coordinating with hamas.

R2 When I was in school (that was in the 90s), it was hip to wear "PLO-Schals" (these black and white woven scarves). This was founded on the assumption that it was possible to either live together in peace or agree on a two-state solution. Even back then, this was the side the Left traditionally focused on and sympathized more with, but I believe that it originated from a place of good faith. (I was taken aback by this back then because I knew even then that many Palestinians were denying Israel its right to exist in total. (For me, this wasn't a theoretical question. We actually had Jewish family friends who live in Tel Aviv.) It must have been around 1990 that I lost the last shred of sympathy when terrorists killed 21 people on the Temple Mount. (Sorry for the German link - the page doesn't exist in English.) This said opinions were much less streamlined than modern social media made them. There were even people who sympathised with the IRA, and it had only been a couple of years since the (also hard-left) RAF terrorism ("Rote Armee Fraktion") which changed Germany forever and had many sympathizers among self-acclaimed intellectuals.

A "wait... what?" moment for me was during the Women's March right after Trump became president when thousands gathered in Washington to understandably protest the threat his administration represented to women's rights, especially after his comments about abortion and his degrading comments about women in general. And...some participants were happily fitted with hijabs during the event. Why?

I never knew as a child that the Catholic nuns teaching me were wearing hijabs or Muslim head wear. We thought that was a Catholic thing.

OP - The Jews are the new working class to Republicans. The Left better watch out or they'll lose the Blacks next.

The Marxist slow march through the institutions has been a resounding success. I look forward to them destroying themselves with the indoctrinating administrators and academics publicly humiliated and scorned by their acolytes, with video going viral.

None of those bullshit propaganda opinion pieces and empty assertions mean anything to me. Putin isn't "siding with Hamas", lol. Western anti Russian anti-Putin bias is such a sewer and everyone here just laps it up. Any proof or evidence is completely lacking.

That Hill opinion piece, if you read it through, for example, by "Jonathan Sweet, a retired Army colonel and 30-year military intelligence officer, led the U.S. European Command Intelligence Engagement Division from 2012 to 2014" is empty assertions and MIC propaganda. There's literally NOTHING there. It's all fantasy. "Other activities suggest" " a more likely explanation would be" etc. "Russia’s relationship with Iran — a principal supporter of Hamas — suggests a more nefarious relationship." It's all vacuous bullshit.

R83, you probably think there was no collusion between Trump and Russia.