English doctors are mad as hell and not going to take it anymore

[quote] So in the wonderful NHS that we are constantly told is the best model of healthcare in the world

Where are you from people say its one of the best systems in the world? We've been complaining non stop about its decline for 50 years. We just think its better than... Certain countries systems. This decline has been accelerated by a decade of Conservative government cuts and Covid kicking the shit out of the system. Anyway everyone and their mother is complaining about wages not matching inflation and for the amount of work junior doctors are meant to do, and the crap retention rate of British doctors just going overseas for more money while we then proceed to loot Africa and India of medical staff they need yes they certainly do deserve a pay rise.

[quote]It's amazing that a) doctors can go on strike legally

So how exactly are doctors supposed to achieve higher wages in a nationalised healthcare system if not through a strike? You don't have that problem in the US only because your healthcare system sucks so much – you have successfully pitted fantastically loaded doctors against those who don't earn as much, thereby making any kind of strike action impossible.

[quote]Dan Veness, 23, started working as a junior doctor this year, but already he can see the huge problems the NHS is facing. Veness is paid about £29,000 and routinely works more than 50 hours a week – are taking their toll.

LOL - "Entry level positions (at Starbucks) start at £20,651 per year while most experienced workers make up to £28,210 per year."

The guy cleaning the hospital toilets makes more than the doctors.

meanwhile, back in USA. Most of us are one catastrophic illness away from financial ruin, loss of home, paycheck garnishment, loss of life savings, etc. yeah, I'll take 'socialized' medicine for $100, Alex.

How can a person get his bachelors, go through medical school and a residency and be only 23? No thank you.

R3 I've got a friend who's just quit nursing to go be a customer assistent at sainsburys because the pay isn't that different and the stress is obviously a lot less. It's frankly a fucked system when that's true.

[quote]How can a person get his bachelors, go through medical school and a residency and be only 23? No thank you.

Different educational system. A lot of Commonwealth countries keep medical training as basically undergraduate-level. The degree they confer is an MBBS (Latin for Bachelor of Medicine, Bachelor of Surgery). which is one five or six year curriculum as opposed to four and four like we have in the US.

R5 what R7 said. You need to do really well in sciences in secondary school then complete a 5/6 year purely medical degree at university which includes clinical placements and regular examination. You then go to work as a junior doctor around 23 years old.

But how can it be safe for both consultants and junior doctors to strike on the same day. Best not get sick today in England sounds crazy.

R1 says it's the best health service in the world here..though that was 10 years ago so it must have declined really fast.

Who's liable if some old dear fluffs it because the ER is understaffed?

Also...they're looking for 35% they must realise they have absolutely 0 prospects of that happening under a Tory government.

R9 There's still emergency cover, so A&E (our equivalent of ER) will be staffed, but pretty much any routine operations, outpatient appointments, etc will be cancelled.

That said, I did think it might be better to avoid going to the office today, which I know sounds a bit over the top, but I'd rather not put myself at risk on a day where ambulances will be rare as hen's teeth.

(Also I don't see why a junior doctor being 23 is seen as a bad thing? Most doctors start training at age 18 and do a five year medical degree, hence graduating at 23.)

It's a perfect time to have a nationwide panic over immigration! Let's make sure anyone from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh or the Caribbean knows they'll be hated and spit on if they come to the UK to be a medical professional!

R13 Brexit has really badly affected the NHS workforce

I work in the NHS and it's inefficient. badly run and frequently unsafe.

It's not just about money, it's about culture and principles. People who work in the NHS genuinely think they're the best in the world.

As we saw from the stories about the abuse of female surgeons last year there is appalling behaviour frequently covered up.

Whenever the funding model comes up people will say SO YOU'RE ARGUING FOR AN AMERICAN HEALTHCARE SYSTEM THEN when the reality is there are plenty of different systems in Europe and the Commonwealth who do a much better job than the NHS.

And I do find it hilarious that doctors who are wholly opposed to any form of private healthcare are quitting the NHS to go and work in countries where there is a significant private insurance healthcare sector.

[quote] How can a person get his bachelors, go through medical school and a residency and be only 23?

Accelerated programs. A friend of mine way back in the 1980s married a guy who was an MD at 23. He was a cardiology resident and eventually became a pediatric cardiologist. (Sadly they had a baby who died of a congenital cardiac problem). He entered college at 17 and got into a 6 year accelerated BS/MD program. His wife used to jokingly call him “Boy Wonder.”

Honestly why would you stay in the NHS if the maximum you could get paid is £150k per year when you could be a millionaire over here!

They simply have to pay them more. I know budgeting isn't easy, of course.

R17 umm some people have morals and want to help people without bleeding them dry?

Ooohh MATRON!

I’ve been quite ill over the past month, which meant I spent a few nights in hospital here in the UK, and the care I received was pretty good, from Accident & Emergency to the coordination with my GP for aftercare. I’ve had all sorts of tests and medications, and not once have I had to worry about the cost. And now that I am back home, my GP is arranging for me to have follow-up blood tests, eye tests and appointments with specialists, all without one word about how much it costs. I’ve never taken that for granted. - The principle of healthcare free at the point of use is a vital freedom.

I’ve had experience of using the healthcare systems in France, Germany and the UK, and they each have their pros and cons. The German system in particular was incredibly generous and convenient in terms of immediate appointments, choice of doctors and available treatments, but people pay (or paid at that time, 15 years ago) exorbitant insurance payments for the convenience. The UK system is cheaper, but less flexible. You have to take what is available. However, most European systems at least guarantee comprehensive treatment without the risk of bankrupting the patient.

The NHS doctors’ strike is fairly unusual. Any threat of that kind usually ends up in a negotiated settlement. Indeed, earlier this year, the devolved Scottish government reached an agreement to avoid strikes by raising doctors’ pay over the next few years. In England, the situation is made more bitter because the Conservative administration is blamed for underfunding the service over the past 13 years, so agreement is harder to reach.

R21, despite claims there is no major difference between NHS service provision across Scotland, England and Wales. In some areas there are minor differences but 13 years of the Tories in England, 24 years of Labour in Wales and 16 years of the SNP in Scotland haven't seen huge improvements or major failings, and those who do

The Welsh and Scottish NHS are tiny in comparison with England. Scotland made an overtly political decision to settle - Humza Yousaf is a very unpopular politician who needed a political win - while Wales is gearing up for a strike because it knows it can't afford it.

There was another thread on here about something where I posted about the NHS being free at the point of care and someone replied to say "It's not free, I pay my taxes for it". And that is partly right, but if that poster lost his job or was never able to work then he would still get free healthcare.

Doesn’t Scotland offer prescription drugs for free whereas in England payment—albeit small—is required?

Scotland and Wales dispense prescriptions with no cost to the patient and in England it’s £9.65 per script, although 90% of prescriptions are dispensed to people exempt from paying - children, the elderly, pregnant women.

It’s another political decision.

Junior doctors in Wales going on strike, unwilling to accept pay offer made by Labour government.

I went to school with several people who became medical doctors of one form or another and I have known countless others. Just a out without fail they all admit, when pressed, that they went into the medical field primarily because they wanted to become very rich. And they all have.

Only in the USA.

The English healthcare model is atrocious.

[quote] Brexit has really badly affected the NHS workforce

It was shit before Brexit, doll.

And you panicky racists decided to make it worse!

That £350m a week that the Brexiters promised would be given to the NHS after leaving must have come in handy for times like this…

Oh, that’s right. It was a lie.

MEDICARE FOR ALL!!!

This is the reality of universal healthcare, overseen by the government.

Individual hospitals or regional trusts are unable to set their own pay rates. Doctors are unable to negotiate individual pay rises.

There is a nationwide pay scale that all staff groups sign up to and progress along year by year, regardless of performance.

[quote] And you panicky racists decided to make it worse!

Wanting to stop importing jihad is not racism.

Is that what Brexit accomplished?

It is a great model but eh fucking Tories won't put in the required funding. It's not like you get charged $200 for an aspirin. Like the Repugs, the Tories prefer to give themselves tax cuts.

We’re going to be seeing more you tube surgery and dental how to videos. Eventually with nothing to loose, people are going to do what they can at home. I bet it’s happening already.

[quote]It is a great model but eh fucking Tories won't put in the required funding. It's not like you get charged $200 for an aspirin. Like the Repugs, the Tories prefer to give themselves tax cuts.

If it's a great model why didn't other countries adopt it?

No, r44, but that’s why people voted for it. Politicians who didn’t know how to actually do it are another story. Claiming that anyone who voted for Brexit is a racist is embarrassing and a bleeding heart liberal who continue to ruin everything they touch.

Claiming that the Brexit campaign wasn't a festival of paranoid immigrant-bashing is self-serving bullshit.

[quote] No, [R44], but that’s why people voted for it. Politicians who didn’t know how to actually do it are another story. Claiming that anyone who voted for Brexit is a racist is embarrassing and a bleeding heart liberal who continue to ruin everything they touch.

It’s Brexit’s fault that this woman’s husband was able to buy vegetables from Waitrose in a clear plastic bag that were rotting.

When someone pointed out there is no EU rule on use by dates for vegetables the woman responded saying it is because of Brexit that UK supermarkets have to buy inferior vegetables from outside the EU.

Absolutely deranged.

I was as upset as anyone that the UK left the EU (my constituency was 50/50) but we have to get a grip and solve the real problems it has caused and not make up shit for likes on Twitter.

35% pay rise. Hahahahahaha not in a million years. And these are supposed to be highly educated people?

R37 It's a great model but for the last 10 years or so chronically underfunded...deliberately. Tories want to privatize all medical care as in the USA. They want doctors to be major owners of airlines and football teams.

[quote][R37] It's a great model but for the last 10 years or so chronically underfunded...deliberately. Tories want to privatize all medical care as in the USA. They want doctors to be major owners of airlines and football teams.

The Tories have been in government for 30 of the last 43 years. And yet they haven't managed to "privatise" the NHS.

You're the type of person I wrote about in my post at R15. It's not possible to have public/private working together like European and Commonwealth countries, it's either the NHS or the US system.

Why would they risk the political blowback of formally privatizing anything? They can do it bit by bit by bit by bit. Awarding sweetheart deals to cronies who provide substandard service. It's win-win. People become used to a public good being shit and cronies make money.

The Conservatives approach to the NHS is the same as their approach to the BBC. They don’t dare abolish either institution so they seek to attack the basis of their support. They starve both of funding and then complain when the scope of service offered inevitably declines.