If you had a reasonable shot at getting into an Ivy League school, what would be legitimate backup schools?

DeVry or MIT.

I’d go with which ever one was the cheapest

Rice

You're misinformed, OP. There are common application forms. Application fees are waved for many minorities at Ivy Leagues, as well.

Oh, and way back in the day, I got into 3 Ivies and my back up schools were SUNY colleges and UofChicago and got into them as well. There are at least 30 schools that are about as selective as Ivies and it's always good to apply to your best state university.

I didn't apply to any Ivies, but I do regret not applying to Duke or Tulane.

Miami of Ohio

I was accepted at two Ivies. I went to my state’s flagship, with no regrets to this day.

Cal or UCLA, r7?

Ahem—you’re silly R8

Your question is confusing. If I had an option to get accepted at any Ivy, I wouldn’t need a safety school.

A safety school is your backup in case you don’t get into an Ivy. There are equivalent-Ivy (or better in some cases) like Stanford, Chicago, Northwestern, Duke. Then there are true safety schools, usually top state schools like UVa , Berkeley, Michigan, regionals like Rice, Vanderbilt, Tulane, Wash U, or the 2nd tier northeastern schools.

Those aren’t safer schools they are alternatives. Apparently, you underestimate the number of Ivy admits who chose not to go.

Or, just as relevant, you underestimate the number of Ivy-eligible students who didn’t even apply to an Ivy.

Your post, R10, indicates a lack of real world understanding.

[quote] Then there are true safety schools, usually top state schools like UVa , Berkeley, Michigan, regionals like Rice, Vanderbilt, Tulane, Wash U, or the 2nd tier northeastern schools.

Cal, Michigan, and UVa are NOT backup schools. These days, they're extremely difficult to get in. If you were applying to Ivy League, Stanford, and MIT, you'd be a fool to think that Cal would be a reasonable backup if you didn't get in to those schools.

My question was what school would someone who had the test scores, grades, and APs sufficient to think that Ivy (or similar) were viable options, as opposed to being laughed out of the admissions office, choose as a school they'd absolutely get in.

I saw one video of a girl with comparable bona fides to what I described get admitted to Brown, Dartmouth, and Penn, and waitlisted from Harvard, Princeton, and Yale, but got outright rejected from UC Merced - MERCED, ffs. Are people who broke 1550 on the SAT, had straight As, and got 10 scores of 5 on AP tests supposed to settle for SUNY or CSU schools (or similar state schools) as the only viable backups?

Phoenix online University~

Give it Op—your premise, as written, is faulty.

[quote]If you had a legitimate chance at attending an Ivy League school, what would your safety schools be.

[quote]If you had a legitimate chance at attending an Ivy League school, what would your safety schools be.

How is this a faulty premise? Or is it your reading comprehension and knowledge of the current state of university admissions the fault part.

Listen hunny. Anyone who has the stuff to get into an Ivy now, is going to have plenty of other options for good schools. Which ones will depend on a lot of factors. So there is no one answer for you, sweetie.

International Correspondence School

[quote]Listen hunny. Anyone who has the stuff to get into an Ivy now, is going to have plenty of other options for good schools. Which ones will depend on a lot of factors. So there is no one answer for you, sweetie.

No sweetie. At the time they do the applications, they have no idea whether they'd get in. And, as I pointed out, the Ivy schools are essentially the last ones to provide admissions status.

And, as I've pointed out several times, some of these people have extraordinary academic stats and ECs, but get declined from places that were considered safety schools 20 years ago.

You'd be a fool to think you're a shoo-in to get admitted to a top tier school like Stanford, MIT or the Ivies (even the loser ones like Brown and Dartmouth) and not apply to a safety school you believe you're all but guaranteed to get accepted by.

You're proving you have no idea what the college admissions situation is like today or what it takes to get in at a top tier school these days.

You obviously are not Ivy material. You said "if you had a reasonable shot at getting into an Ivy" - which means they have great creds. Yes it's a crap shoot if an Ivy will take them, especially if they are white and not legacy. BUT as I said, with great creds, they can apply to many other great schools and will find their place. Now STFU and stop being so difficult.

Maybe it's different at the undergraduate level, but in graduate admissions, overqualified applicants to middling programs are sometimes rejected because it's clear they're going to be accepted to -- and receive a better funding offer from -- a top school. And the program doesn't want to waste time by accepting them.

Go to US News AWR’s list of Best Public Universities.

Apply to schools ranked 10-20 on this list.

Those would be pretty good backup options.

Let’s just close this thread out now…it’s a dud.

[quote]BUT as I said, with great creds, they can apply to many other great schools and will find their place.

You don't really understand how the system works, do you.

Sweetie, at the time they do the applications, they have no idea whether they're going to get in anywhere. They have great credentials, so my question was if you had great credentials what would be legitimate backup schools.

And no, they may not get in to other "great schools" if they choose poorly and shoot too high - hence the question about BACKUP schools.

R22 why would we go there? Their rankings change aver time they change their formula…seriously.

Oh for crissakes - someone that smart will figure out. They will try for Ivies, AND the "new" Ivies, and a state school, and maybe a couple "C List" choices. Which for these bright young things, C list would still be good schools. Now shut up. It's not complicated.

Trump University

[quote]Go to US News AWR’s list of Best Public Universities...Apply to schools ranked 10-20 on this list...Those would be pretty good backup options.

Based on what I saw in the videos, I think that might be shooting too high and not provide a shoo-in admittance, as well as the fact people are doing 15-20 applications, so probably already included most of those schools since places like Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth are among the 10-20th ranked schools.

[quote]Which for these bright young things, C list would still be good schools. Now shut up. It's not complicated.

Why so hostile. It's such a straightforward question. I was simply curious what schools people saw as backup schools.

Are you just butthurt that your aspirational school was a safety school for the rest of us? You sound jealous that some people worked and studied hard enough to have options.

Just stop. NOW.

No honey. I graduated from 2 Ivies, Sorbonne and EPFL Switzerland. I already explained to you - the very bright young thing's "backup schools" are going to vary greatly and be regional. There are at least 200 to choose from and also left-field choices. THERE IS NO LIST, you stupid fuck. But you keep whining for one. But it doesn't make sense that there is a list of "national" safeties. That's not how people decide.

Cornell or Penn.

[quote]There are at least 200 to choose from and also left-field choices. THERE IS NO LIST, you stupid fuck. But you keep whining for one. But it doesn't make sense that there is a list of "national" safeties. That's not how people decide.

No one is asking for a "national" list of safety schools - you dumbass. Only your woeful lack of reading comprehension would assert that that was the question.

And, I definitely buy you went degree shopping at two Ivies, Sorbonne, and EPFL - your posts reek of arrogance.

Sweetheart, if you haven't figured it out, many of us graduated from similar schools for both undergrad and graduate programs. None of us are impressed by your name dropping.

If you actually had the mental wherewithal, you'd recognize that the reason I posed this question to DLers is exactly because so many of us graduated from such schools in the past, so was curious what DLers with such qualifications would think about such a topic.

You sound like the typical over-achiever who is insecure so needs to name drop your educational bona fides as if they'd impress us. The rest of us just quietly understand that the hardest part was getting in. After that, it's about what we did with that educational opportunity while there and, more pointedly, what we did AFTER getting the golden ticket.

Seems like you want a list of safeties for Bright Young Things. If that is not what you want, what do you want? You haven't been clear, as others have noted.

[quote]Seems like you want a list of safeties for Bright Young Things. If that is not what you want, what do you want? You haven't been clear, as others have noted.

Well obviously, what I wanted was a pedantic debate with someone who subtlely, but concretely, changes the parameters of his argument in order to prove his initial jackass comment was correct.

Also, I desperately wanted to quibble about the difference between an "national list of safeties" and a list of safeties vs. the general opinions of DLers about schools they'd view as safety schools. Of course, it would also be important to argue that schools that are clearly no longer remotely "safe" schools for anyone who knows anything about the current state of college admissions are "safety" schools. Finally, I really wanted a granular discussion on the metaphysics of people ending up at the right school for them.

OK, OP -- my question is, why?

Of for crissakes you're a twat. Isn't school years behind you? Are you a professor? In the admissions or development biz? If not, isn't it creepy for you to be watching such videos by 17 and 18 yo's? Bye. You're a nasty and muddled conversationalist.

An associates degree from a community college used to complete a back at a state university. I and so many others would never even consider someone from Harvard or the like. They're considered looney bins now.

Caltech all the way

UVA, UNC, UGA , Univ of Texas, and, inexplicably, Florida are all pretty well ranked public schools that would make good and semi-affordable safety schools for someone who thinks they have a shot at an Ivy.

But, really, you’re probably more likely to be drawn to a good regional liberal arts college. Most offer good financial aid packages.

All colleges look at their own needs when they evaluate applicants . If the band director tells the admissions office he is short on tuba players, they look for tuba players. If a physics professor needs additional undergrads to do research on a topic that is paid for by a large grant, they look for applicants who have a passion for physics. If the college's student literature publication has seen 75% of its staff graduated, they look for applicants who love to write. The college's needs change from year to year. The goal is to maintain an active college community over time.

Most applicants who are accepted with a very competitive applicant pool have done something major in their spare time. I know a young man who developed a summer "robot building" camp for middle schoolers. He enlisted the aid of teachers and administrators to make it happen. He did it all four years he was in high school. He got into a university which accepted less than 10% of their applicants.

A young woman wanted to volunteer at a women's shelter, but she was too young. She saw the sad state of the furniture there, took pictures of it, and then went door to door asking for donations to replace it. She worked for months, she raised over $20,000 and she was featured in a local tv news story. She was able to get into her dream Ivy school.

It isn't just the great grades and the standard extracurricular activities. You have to stand out in a major way within the applicant pool.

Dunning Kruger University might be right for OP.

[quote]Dunning Kruger University might be right for OP.

Coming from someone who is NOT using Dunning Kruger correctly...

Good state schools are sometimes more competitive than private schools because they are less expensive.

Good backups for Ivy Leagues/Stanford/MIT:

Univ. of Chicago Notre Dame Duke University UCLA Vanderbilt UC-Berkeley Georgetown Rice Tulane NYU Carnegie Mellon Northwestern UMich at Ann Arbor Boston University

^^^Based on selectivity of student body, endowments and expanse of alumni network.

OP This is such a soccer mom topic.

A bit OT, but a friend who's now a professor at an Ivy got rejected by every college they applied to her senior year in high school so went to a community college. Then they transferred to Stanford as a sophomore and stayed there and got her PhD. This was 30 years ago. There's no rhyme or reason to college admissions and, in this case anyway, it appears there hasn't been for a while now.

OP, could it be that the lower-tier schools know that the overqualified applicants will most likely turn down an offer of admission? I seem to dimly recall from my own college app process in the late 80s that colleges like to brag about how many accepted applicants ultimately enroll. It's a statistic that enhances the appearance of desirability.

I might be all wrong about that; just a guess.

^ I meant to respond to R13's comment.

All I needed was the Barbizon School of Modeling. My first and ONLY choice!

Stanford, Georgetown, NYU, Northwestern, Emory

If you are in New York state Binghamton for a public school. It’s known as a public ivy.

My backup would be becoming an Instaho with an Only Fans page.

MIT is not a safety school for an Ivy League candidate. It is rated higher and is harder to get into than nearly all the ivies with the exception of Harvard. Stanford is also rated higher and more competitive than most of the Ivies except Harvard and Yale.

People who think Stanford is a good backup are living in 1960. Stanford is the hardest school in the country to get into.

Good backups for those just below the Ivies are Tufts, Trinity (CT), Colgate, Hamilton, Bates, Colby, Carleton, Pomona, etc. All very good schools, and possibly offer better education, but they're consider a notch below the Ivies..

For real safeties, think Boston U or NYU. They'll take anyone with a check.

R52 Your last statement is so not true. Everything else is pretty spot on. NYU is one of the most competitive research universities in the country. It is also the most popular with the most applications of any school in the country. It’s acceptance rate was under 30% when I applied and got into it in 2006. I’m sure it’s even lower now.

I’m guessing you come from an Ivy legacy family?

Not if you’re a jock. Or a legacy. Or a filthy rich coastal elite.

But it is if you are none of the above, especially if you are poor.

Mine were GWU and BU.

This was 20 years ago though.

UCLA —back when you could formally apply to a single UC campus only, and then you might be “redirected” to your next best.

Plot twist —I did not have to go to UCLA.

Why would anyone go to an Ivy when there is NYU?

R58 As an alumnus thanks for the compliment but NYU can’t fuck with most of the Ivies from endowment to need based scholarships. But one does get to live in the Village. NYU is mad hard to get into but really it is it’s business and film school which are prestigious. Everything else is merely “good”. It’s all about networking anyways. The Ivies and highly selective universities grant you the most potential for that.

Middlebury, Bowdoin, Boston College, Boston University, Williams.

[quote] If you had a reasonable shot at getting into an Ivy League school, what would be legitimate backup schools?

I'm confused. If I were confident I had a reasonable shot at getting into an Ivy, why would I need to concern myself with the legitimacy of any backup schools where I also choose to apply?

OK, Blair Waldorf.

UCLA has just tied Cal as the best public in the nation according to US News. UCLA has been on the upswing, Cal on the downswing or both for a while but one problem is that a lot of people don't know whether to call it Cal or Berkeley. I also think Cal's recent problems heading to the ACC were significant in that some are feeling that the administration is not supporting athletics, and some feel that's the way it should be.

The University of Chicago

I got into Harvard, Yale and Northwestern. U Chicago was my backup school. I got free ride offers from about a dozen schools.

I peaked in HS.

I'm such a dinosaur I only applied to one college

OP i dont believe someone could get into harvard but rejected by USC

Could be a legacy.

[quote]OP i dont believe someone could get into harvard but rejected by USC

There are dozens of youtube "reaction" videos of people describing their qualifications, listing which schools to which they applied, and their reactions when they check the status online.

You don't have to take my word for it. You can view them yourself. There are numerous examples of similar weird results.

If MIT is your first choice (it's a select group: a couple of years ago every member of the MIT football team was the valedictorian of his high school class and the quarterback really was a rocket scientist (in-training, of course) but if you're not their first choice, backups could be CalTech, Carnegie Mellon, Rensselaer, Rochester, WPI, Georgia Tech, Michigan and Purdue. There are more depending on what you're studying, but these are some of the main ones.

[quote]Univ. of Chicago Notre Dame Duke University UCLA Vanderbilt UC-Berkeley Georgetown Rice Tulane NYU Carnegie Mellon Northwestern UMich

These would not be safety schools as most are as competitive or only very slightly less competitive than Ivies.

r71, I totally understand r43. There is a different level of competition for the stellar academic. 🧐😇

.

r65 - and fuck Princeton up the ungreased ass.

It's a crap shoot. Like everything in life. Too many kids getting perfect scores and grades. No guarantees. Some admissions folks reject a stellar applicant if they can tell it just to be a safety school. They want to spend their time cultivating the applicants who really want to be there or who are solidly on the fence. Not some star student looking for back ups to back ups. Try to remember this. You can do everything right, even perfectly and still not get your way. That is how life works.

R63 meandering nonsense post

[quote] [R71], I totally understand [R43]. There is a different level of competition for the stellar academic. 🧐😇

OP said "if you had a reasonable shot" at going to an Ivy. So that list is 2nd or 3rd tier schools that someone who doesn't make Harvard or Princeton could go to without losing too much in the way of prestige or career opportunity.

In fact, University of Chicago, Notre Dame or Georgetown, in particular, are probably more impressive on a resume than Brown or Dartmouth.

R61, too many kids think they have a reasonable shot of getting into an Ivy. They don't realize the schools each get thousands of applications, and they accept between 4% and 10%. The kids don't know the attributes of the others in the applicant pool, and their own strength within it. They don't realize the schools evaluate their own needs when choosing applicants, whether it be filling out roles in extracurricular activities, fulfilling a department's need for more students to make the department thrive, or finding unique individuals who excel in areas most other applicants don't. There are too many variables that affect their chances of getting in.

The most reasonable back up is a school the students thinks they will thrive in academically, that meets their social and environmental needs, where they can live happily for four or five years, and they love it when they visit. That should be the most obvious school on their list.

Well if they were as smart as they think they are, they would know what they are up against R76 and give themselves a hook. If they are so stupid they don't realize that all the top schools could give themselves only valedictorians or people with perfect test scores, then they aren't looking at the situation objectively.

Are we talking about backup schools or safety schools? OP (and some posters) use those terms interchangeably but the are not the same thing.

“Backup schools” are a bit less competitive than your dream school, but would still be close to ideal.

“Safety schools” are schools you know 100% you will get into.

In my day, you’d apply to a few dream schools but also the local state school, which wasn’t very competitive .

My backup/safety schools were Ivy League.

One could rationally do this in my day.

R79 oh my you must be a Rhodes Scholar.

R78 maybe where you lived —that’s not a universal truth

Chiming in a bit late, but I applied to three Ivies, got into one, and didn't end up going there. My top two picks were Stanford & Harvard; I was rejected by both. Same with Princeton. I got into Penn, but opted not to go because I had little life experience at the time – and grew up entirely in the suburbs – and Philly scared the shit out of me.

I applied to seven other schools, and was accepted at six, including UCLA & UVA as an out-of-state student. I also got into Northwestern, Duke, USC and my safety school (the top public university in my home state). Bizarrely, I was waitlisted at the *lowest* ranked school on my list aside from my safety school: Rice! Not even sure what TF I was thinking there – four years in Houston?!? – but in hindsight I fucked it all up and SHOULD'VE applied to Brown, where my emo faggy self would've likely come out with far less sturm und drang. OTOH I'm still kinda surprised I got into five top programs as a suburban white boy.

OP, I don't know when you applied to schools, but it is A LOT easier to do it today, if only because it's all computerized and you don't have to manually type every single application. I know the competition to get into a top school is tougher than ever, but for that I blame America's helicopter parents. But yes, I agree that admittances are largely arbitrary. I "only" had a 1390 SAT and four AP classes, but still did surprisingly well.

Zzzz

Northwestern, Duke, University of Chicago, Vanderbilt, Emory or Tulane used to be classic safety schools, but some of those are now harder to get into than some Ivies.

Beaver College

I went to an Ivy League. At the end of the day, it was not worth it in terms of my getting further along in career and salary, etc. In fact, getting the debt paid off (which I finally did) probably took 10 years off my life. At least.

[quote]I went to an Ivy League. At the end of the day, it was not worth it in terms of my getting further along in career and salary, etc. In fact, getting the debt paid off (which I finally did) probably took 10 years off my life. At least.

The cost/benefit of going to an Ivy League school is worth considering. However, I'd argue that it is definitely a function of the actual career you've chosen.

Also, while I generally disagree with the vast majority of the notion of "privilege" espoused these days, I would also note that you may not even be aware of the advantages you've accrued from having a resume with an Ivy League school on it - all the HR filters that you got by without even knowing. Finally, while someone may not acknowledge it, a huge number of people are both impressed and intimidated by people with such a degree. Like "hot privilege," you may not even be aware that people make way for you, defer to you, or simply think more highly of you which opens doors and provides opportunities.

Just something to consider.

R87 right. I’ve gotten interviews for positions that required a Masters just because I had NYU on my resume. I can’t proven but I just know. I can tell. Name schools are still very much a thing.

I work for one of the backup schools listed in several posts here, and am involved in Admissions as part of my academic administration position. Someone upthread said that my lesser school would not reject students who were accepted at Harvard, etc. This is false, especially if there was an interview. Our alumni network is expansive and Admissions asks them to indicate if the applicant considers our school their dream school, top choice, or some other ranking. If students let on that they plan to go to an Ivy if they get in, we do not admit them.

The Common Application messed up selectivity ratings. Applicants with fee waivers can click on twenty schools to apply to using the same application; most schools have a supplement that can take an extra hour to complete, so it's a minimal effort to complete the process for many schools.

In my view, there is a difference between backup and safety schools. Safety schools are guaranteed, such as state schools that are mandated to admit any student who meets basic criteria. Backup schools can be hard to get into, but relatively less hard than (some) Ivies.

St. John's College in Santa Fe, NM or Annapolis, MD. Both use the 'Great Books' curriculum for which I am supremely impressed by and supremely (and sadly) underqualified to participate-

And you don't now what a target you become for people's prejudices and insecurities R87. And it's laughable that people with even more privileges than you ever had try to treat you like you're some kind of spoiled rich kid.

Nope. Sorry. I'm still living paycheck to paycheck. I'm currently collecting unemployment. My Ivy League degree has meant shit.

Now I know you Dataloungers will say that maybe I just suck at what I do. That I'm just a loser who happens to have an Ivy League degree. That I can't hold down a job, blah blah blah. I'm being as humble as I possibly can by saying that none of that is true. I'm smart, I'm gifted (I truly do believe that is a fair assessment of my skills/abilities).

White, yes, and of course there is day to day white privilege there (if and when I get pulled over, for instance). But I call bullshit on the Ivy League resume privilege stuff. I don't think it has gotten me anything more than what I've earned by honestly doing my best. Companies still downsize, jobs still get eliminated - and no amount of Ivy League terminal degree has gotten me more work - or has protected me from getting the axe.

I doubt that U of Chicago was ever a "safety school" within even the lifetime of the most wizened eldergays here. Vanderbilt was a safety school for rich Southerners and New Yorkers, but has tried to draw from a wider geographic base---I suspect someone from Idaho or some other non-traditional location will do better than someone from a prep school in Nashville.

There are plenty of private safety schools--American U and Catholic U are classics, along with lesser known regional places like University of Hartford.

[quote] [R78] maybe where you lived —that’s not a universal truth

Who said it was?

In fact, using the qualifier “in my day” already acknowledges that this either no longer applies or is not universal.

You smarmy millennial half-wits are always so pleased to smugly announce “Water is wet, you know!”

So tedious. So stupid. So time-wasting.

Vanderbilt is tied to Nashville elites. So are most of these schools. They may have broad geographic dispersion goals, but they know what local toans can do to them, and they watch their back.

Vandy began loosening its ties to the Nashville elite in the 80s. They began broadening their geographic reach, while also trying to cultivate donors who weren't part of the established crowd. I think they were tired of alums calling the president to complain when some knucklehead kid of there's got a D in something, as well as wanting a larger national reputation. You could get an excellent education there but you didn't have to.

I've always thought it was curious that Vanderbilt picked Tennessee to establish a university.

On the surface, he didn't seem to have any connection to the place. It's said he "provided the school its initial $1 million endowment in the hopes that his gift and the greater work of the university would help to heal the sectional wounds inflicted by the Civil War." But, Tennessee? Seems so strange to me.

If you knew your Civil War history, then you’d have your answer.

Although Tennessee was part of the Confederacy, the state remained strongly divided and much of the state remained sympathetic to the Union. Many fought for the Union side. It was the first state “readmiitted” after the War.

[quote]If you knew your Civil War history, then you’d have your answer.

The question is NOT about the Civil War, but why Vanderbilt would have felt so strongly about it enough to donate what would have been an astronomical sum to dedicate a university to that pursuit. Per capita GDP for the entire US was about $3000 and the average daily wage was $2.35.

Also, one of the worst post-civil war banking crises occurred in 1873 the same year the university was established. At the same time, railroads, where a lot of Vanderbilt's wealth was tied, were starting to have problems, making donating that amount of money even more surprising.

In light of all that, Vanderbilt felt so strongly about it that he donated to create the university. THAT is the question I was asking, not a silly and simple question about the Civil War.

If it were any bigger it would bite you in the ass: “the hopes that his gift and the greater work of the university would help to heal the sectional wounds inflicted by the Civil War…”

The question asked was “But Tennessee?” And I answered that question.

R100 Exactly when I just read r99’s response I was hella confused. I knew I had been following the comments closely. It’s amazing how some people’s memories work. But what’s more intriguing is the fact that he decided to be a plain good ol fashion cunt at the close of his remarks on r99.

LOL - r99 and r100.

Honestly, you two are hilarious in your lack of capacity to connect the dots.

well, of course, I mean r100 and r101.

But, I've obviously undercut myself by making that mistake.

“But, Tennessee?”—that’s a direct quote.

Asked, and answered. The end.

Bye, troll🫵🏻

R104 you owned that lying ho. I’m sick of cunts 🤥 about things stated on here. It’s exhausting.

Oh, r104 and r105 owned me.

lol

You’ve shot this thread, to death. Happy now?

“But, Tennessee?” has happened.

Marsha Blackburn, dumber than a box of pageant hair? “But, Tennessee?”

Vanderbilt didn't pick it. Some religous dude he respected did and he went along.. It was supposed to be a seminary.

Why didn’t Anderson Cooper go to Vanderbilt?

R110 He wasn’t about to waste his gay youth in Tennessee.

Anderson would’ve been in hog Heaven with all those fit and preppy Vandy guys.

Nashville fell quickly and prospered as a garrison (supply) town during the Civil War. It didn't prosper so much after the war, hence, the healing gesture. The plantation culture is greater as you go West, although Nashville had some plantations nearby. As you go East, that culture recedes and the smallholding farmers of the east resented the political and financial power of the plantations.

i think its weird that top tier schools penalize those who would go to ivy league schools if they could get in. Those students who arent wasting their time by applying but dont get in need a great school to go to.

[quote] Those students who arent wasting their time by applying but dont get in need a great school to go to.

Ho boy, the irony.