How bad was the George W. Bush Administration?

When was that? Was I there?

I said sympathetically sad.

He really wanted to be the literacy president.

He appointed elder men who he thought would give him solid advice, but instead they, and their staff, manipulated and twisted facts for their own agenda. The only real honest advisor was tramped over and used as a scapegoat.

However, I give props to Condi for outmaneuvering rich white old men and getting exactly what she wanted (State).

I used to say George W. Bush ruined America. Then, from 2017 to 2021, i saw what ruining Americam actually looks like.

I still think GWB was awful. Not ending democracy awful, but really as bad as you can get short of that.

I dislike Bush, but I HATE Trump with a burning passion.

He set up a framework to torture people and spy on electronic communications. A major theme of his re-election campaign was the horror of gay marriage. He strongarmed his way into the White House despite receiving fewer votes nationally and in Florida, if all the votes had been counted.

He started a trillion dollar war based on Dick Cheney’s tough guy act. And didn’t pay for it. He cut taxes without cutting spending, which exploded the deficit.

Trump is terrible as well, but don’t let Bush off the hook.

I'd still like to know who gay hooker Jeff Gannon was servicing in the Bush WH.

He fucking stoled that election.

His mission was to capture Saddam Hussein because dad couldn't do it.

Bad, but a lot better than 2017-20.

Sandra Day O'Connor will forever carry a black mark because of her swing vote in stopping the election.

Al Gore deserves a hell of a lot more respect for fighting valiantly for electoral integrity as well as for seeing the damage that can be done by denying the reality of the situation. His gracious concession stands in sharp contrast to the ugliness that comes when a candidate puts self above country.

Asleep at the wheel.

The only difference between GWB's administration and Trump's is that his was a little slicker in hiding what they were actually doing. Trump's contribution to the Republican party was the realization that you could say the quiet part out loud, and you would not only not be penalized for it, but you would be lionized for it.

I always thought he got a bad rap over Katrina. As we are now seeing in Hawaii, the local government, as, in effect, the first responders, has to be able to competently govern in the face of disasters.

Has anyone read Days of Fire: Bush and Cheney in the White House by Peter Baker?

I am currently reading. It is very good and paints an unbiased, but realistic picture of the Bush Administration.

Bush had his issues but at least he seemed to be a patriotic American. Trump is a million times worse and an outright traitor. Bush wasn't giving away state secrets to the highest bidder.

R14 - Yes.

Oh, how far we have sunk when Bush looks good in comparison. I am truly afraid for democracy.

R16, we have survived bad presidents before, but anti-democracy ones are an entirely different kettle of fish.

You should binge Boston Legal, OP. Their court cases pretty much lay out the majority of the crimes the administration committed and how (liberal) people felt at the time.

I didn't think Bush personally was bad, as much as manipulated

Dubya said all he ever wanted to be in life was the baseball commissioner.

R20 Yeah, but he also knew and loved history. Bush and Karl Rove had a reading competition.

^ Imagine Trump reading anything other than his ratings & poll numbers.

Sorry, but Bush was a dumbshit. Let's not try and rehab his reputation. And Karl Rove is fucking evil, along with Dick Cheney. Comparing them to Trump is a low bar--Republicans are all criminals.

But this is all ancient history now, most Americans can't remember what happened a week ago, much less 20 years.

One of the many things I hate about Trump is tgat it made me think fondly of Bush Jr, who was a monster. (Bush Sr—not a bad guy)

R23 Cheney, from what I read, handled September 11, 2001 extremely well. He didn't get emotional or make rash decisions, but took charge. Bush was overwhelmed and scared.

R24 Sr is a great guy who understood raising taxes would ruin him, but he had to do it for the betterment of the country.

The Obama Administration had to clean up the mess left behind by Bush, just like Biden is having to clean up Trump's mess. I don't get why people vote for Republicans.

^ not to the Kennedy assassination wingnuts who hold him responsible for JFK’s death.

Well, he may have helped plan it r25. If he knew it was coming, he would have been calm and have a plan.

^^^ If any proof was needed that conspiracists dwell only in the hearts of the far right.

Cheney didn't plan the 9/11 attacks, but he sure as hell capitalized on it by invading Iraq, a country that had nothing to do with it. Go rewatch Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 911--I remember those scenes where corporate execs were salivating over privatizing (ie., stealing) Iraq's entire infrastructure. Not to mention the GOP warhawks stupidly thought the invasion would've ended after a couple of weeks. And then there was the torturing of innocent people. Need I go on? Bush and Cheney are war criminals.

If Cheney & Bush are war criminals, what are we to make of the Hillary Clintons & Joe Bidens who voted to authorize the invasion of Iraq?

I knew the both sider troll would show up after I posted my comment. Go suck on Kellyanne Conway's clit, we're talking about Bush and Cheney dear.

"All right. You've covered your ass."

Not guilty of bothsiderism, R30. But I do believe in a pox on both your houses. Most Democrats in the Senate did NOT vote for the war resolution. Those who did need to be called out for their complicity.

Is Condoleezza Rice a lesbian or just too smart and accomplished for a man?

[quote] I always thought he got a bad rap over Katrina. As we are now seeing in Hawaii, the local government, as, in effect, the first responders, has to be able to competently govern in the face of disasters.

Heck'uva job Brownie! Bush put the horse lawyer in charge of FEMA. It was all downhill from there.

[quote] R16, we have survived bad presidents before, but anti-democracy ones are an entirely different kettle of fish.

We could re-litigate the 2000 election for starters. Roger Stone sent the Brooks Brothers Mob in to shut down the recounts and terrify the poll workers in Miami. So no, Bush and company weren't much better than Trump. Also purging the voter rolls with their caging lists. Remember Katherine Harris? I guess they didn't try to overthrow the government, so there's that.

[quote] ^ Imagine Trump reading anything other than his ratings & poll numbers.

I repeat, Bush isn't that bright. It's fairly well documented--"Is our children learning?", "You're putting food on your family"

[quote] If Cheney & Bush are war criminals, what are we to make of the Hillary Clintons & Joe Bidens who voted to authorize the invasion of Iraq?

I could go on and on about the phonied up intelligence on Iraq, which was used to twist arms to authorize the invasion. Both Biden and Hillary have since said this was a mistake but they're too classy to trash the Bush Administration.

[quote] Not guilty of bothsiderism, R30. But I do believe in a pox on both your houses. Most Democrats in the Senate did NOT vote for the war resolution. Those who did need to be called out for their complicity.

You seem to be trying to soft pedal how awful the Bush Administration really was R34. And you immediately went to the "but Hillary and Biden did it too" so you get called out for being a both sideser.

^^ Let’s hear it for Keith Olbermann, ladies & gentleman!

To compare pre-Electoral College Florida 2000, where the margins were razor thin, & Trump 2020, who acted to steal a not particularly close election, AFTER the Electoral College had already certified the vote, is wholly ahistorical.

^ My point was that the Republicans cheat to win elections, because their policies suck and aren't enough to win.

No R38, any kind of election stealing is heinous. And the popular vote wasn't close. Bush was not favored by the people.

Bush was a classic psychopath, superficially charming but bold and criminal with no sense of risk. I can't believe how badly people underestimate his evil.

R38, you seem extremely confused about the meaning of “ahistorical” by applying it to something you describe as a historical comparison.

Whatever. The Trump denialism is firmly rooted in the success of Republicans in 2000. They believed that their ability in 2000 to claim the narrative early was why Bush won. The Trumpists were quite explicit about this, which is one reason they flipped out when Fox declared AZ for Biden. Fox’s early call of Florida - made by Bush’s cousin - was retracted 2 hours later but made Bush look like the winner.

2000 was a closer election, but it planted seeds for 2020. The Bush campaign knew they lost the popular vote. They strongarmed their way to make sure Florida votes were not accurately recounted, which would have reversed the outcome. They succeeded where Trump failed.

Bush still has a higher body count under his watch than Trump.

But to paraphrase Double Indemnity, they’re both rotten.

[quote] And the popular vote wasn't close.

As we well know by now, presidential elections are not measured by the overall popular vote.

Credit where credit is due.

He’s an asshole for sure, but he was sexy AF. He’s got big dick r very for sure and probably threw down a great fuck in his prime.

One of the few good things about the Bush administration is the work it did in Africa. He was very popular throughout the continent.

Bush lost both elections and it is then that I realized how corrupt our system had become.

Though a lot people are nostalgic for him now. They say he wasn't as bad as Trump. Doesn't Rachel Maddow hang out with GWB these days?

He was god awful terrible but people are willing to cut him slack since he comes from the American Aristocracy, which is important to the people who actually govern the country.

Rachel Maddow? Doubtful, so please supply some evidence. You are likely thinking of Michelle Obama, who is friendly with him at events..Regardless, political differences are not the same as personal animosity. You can be friendly with someone whose positions you oppose. It’s harder now, since many Republican positions hit people on a very personal basis.

Trump is bad but hundreds of thousands died on W's watch.

[quote] Bush lost both elections and it is then that I realized how corrupt our system had become.

Welcome, RFK, Jr., to DL!

r3 you are a person I would never hire for a job because you just jump to conclusions. You have no idea how I know bush lost both elections which I am not going to share.

[quote] you are a person I would never hire for a job because you just jump to conclusions.

And R54, I would never hire you. Don't edit your work; much too sloppy.

He's FDR compared to Trump.

(I truly thought he would go down as the worst of all time. But now I would love to have him back.)

BushCheney are the prototype of maga

BushCheney 👉 teaparty 👉 maga

It was god awful, but then along came Trump 8 years later and it doesn't seem quite as bad in retrospect. However, the unnecessary wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the willfully poor response to Hurricane Katrina were still horrific.

To be fair, R58, even Obama deemed the Afghanistan war to be just, to root out the hiding place of Bin Laden.

Dubya sucked because they aren't really anti gay but when in office do everything to booster them credentials. Once they leave office they're all for gay rights. That and his Iraq fiasco. I went after Hussein because he went after my daddy?! The hell!!

As with Reagan they exaggerated what they did re: HIV. They actively supported the Musevenis who had the death penalty for homosexuals. Republicans are big liars, that's the truth. Bush in particular tries to change the conomic recporting numbers to make the e conomy look better than it was, which eventually of course led to a great crash. Bush started appointing conservative justices who have turned our country into a banana republic.

The Bush administration helped in the creation of ISIS, helped Iran in defeating Saddam and has turned Iraq into a puppet state of Iran.

Bush helped Iran achieve almost everything it wanted and that is fucking hilarious.

And remember that Bush senior nominated the worst, most corrupt, and most evil Supreme Court justice to ever walk the face of the earth--Clarence Thomas. 30 years of corruption and big wet kisses to corporate America, thanks to Poppy Bush.

R9

I sobbed watching his concession speech - it felt so wrong and so unfair.

Mary.

R52

Have you forgotten Covid?

^ I can’t believe I’m saying “to be fair” about Trump, but, as with the rest of the world, hundreds of thousands would have died no matter who was president. Although, sure, more died needlessly because Trump was president.

True, but I had to say it.

Katrina was a bad situation, but the never-ending occupation of Iraq was Bush's undoing. McCain could have won in 2008 if he hadn't also embraced the long-term occupation.

No, R68, afte 9/15 & the collapse of Lehman, the economy was such that no Republican could have won that year.

I was way too young to know the deep political extent of the Bush administration (born '96). But I definitely remember his administration being inept and honestly, a mess. The only way how I'm dealing with Ukraine news is from growing up around all the War on Terror news propaganda which honestly had a very similar feel to Ukraine. War is sad, insidious, and disgusting.

But what I can say: my family was affected by Hurricane Katrina. FEMA's response started a little slow but in general, there was so much help here after the hurricane— which speaks volumes about how much better shape our country was in. Clinton really got this nation in shape and we were still on the coattails of that era. Before the 7-8 trillion dollar folly was added to our nation's credit card bill. Papa bless the Military-Industrial Complex!

Bush was unfairly blamed for his handling of Katrina. Governor Kathleen Blanco and NOLA Mayor Ray Nagin drug their feet and didn't ask for substantial help until it was too late

Yeah, R72, with the war going so bad, then, it was pile-on time.

NBo he wasn't unfairly blamed. Not only did he put an incompetent in charge of FEMA, but they made securing the oil pipelines ahead of securing the public.

THen after Katrina they kept NO shut off from help.

[quote]Bush was unfairly blamed for his handling of Katrina.

His mother was also hit.

[QUOTE] You have no idea how I know bush lost both elections which I am not going to share.

Boundaries stated.

Let's not pretend that the Bush Administration's FEMA response to Hurricane Katrina was good ("You're doing a heckuva job, Brownie", Bush said to his horse lawyer). Also Bush had to fly into New Orleans, which had no electricity, and put on a show in Jackson Square with floodlights and fanfare.

Some in the right wing media are saying "why isn't Biden going to Maui"? He's staying away bitches because they're still looking for dead bodies. He has the good sense to stay away because it's disruptive for the Presidential entourage to go there. The Bush crowd didn't care about that during Katrina, they could care less. It was more important to get the tv moment and try and make Bush look strong.

Let's not try and compare the botched Bush Administration response to Katrina to the Biden Administration's response to the Maui fires. Apples and oranges.

Exactly what r78 said. I remember in 2016 when we had historic flooding in Louisiana. Trump wanted a photo op so he decided to drop by. Local official were begging him "Please don't come right now. We don't have the resources at the moment. It will just take away from what we're trying to do." He showed up anyway.

^ And how could we forget Trump throwing paper towels at people in Puerto Rico R79? He's such a POS.

Bush = Trump

I never thought I’d see a president as bad as Bush in my lifetime. But then…

It was fucking awful. Just everything about Bush and his administration was awful and depressing. I spent 8 years yelling at the tv every time Bush was on it, and I still can't stand the sight of him.

What about Donald Rumsfeld?

[quote]Cheney didn't plan the 9/11 attacks, but he sure as hell capitalized on it by invading Iraq, a country that had nothing to do with it.

Cheney and his defense contractor buddies couldn't wait to make a fortune in war profiteering. Bush was their stooge.

Cheney was the proxy president. After Bush was reelected he started reeling Cheney in and making some decisions and policies himself.

Halliburton was on the verge of bankruptcy when Cheney became VP. After the Iraq War, it was very profitable.

Trump wasn't the first Republican grifter to profit from being in government. Just a trashier one.

Cheney and Rumsfeld were the ones who were really making the decisions and running things, Bush just did as he was told.

Cheney and Rumsfeld were sociopaths, Bush was just an idiot who was easily manipulated.

That whole administration was just obscene.

^ Yeah, but that doesn't excuse Bush. Stupidity isn't a good excuse in my book.

The fact that the Obamas as such good buddies with this cretin has completely ruined my opinion of them.

R86 True. I believe Bush's second term was a lot better than his first. He had Condi, Robert Gates, Steven Hadley, and Hank Paulsen helping him make decisions.

[quote] Cheney and Rumsfeld were the ones who were really making the decisions and running things, Bush just did as he was told.

Historians have debunked this claim. Bush was the one calling the shots. Always.

r92 Bush was influenced and manipulated. Not to say that he wasn't complicit, though.

Bush did plenty of manipulating and influencing himself.

r91 Second term better than the first? His top economists were asleep at the wheel as the scariest recession of the past 60 years happened on his watch, one of the world's largest banks failed, and the entire economy almost sank. 10 million people lost their homes and their credit ratings over the course of 6 months. One of the reasons we have a housing shortage now is that the entire construction industry tanked and couldn't get financing for 5 or 6 years.

^ To be fair, Democrats have to bear some of the responsibility for the advent of subprime mortgages, one of the underlying causes of the Great Recession. Understandably, they wanted to make it easier for undeserved communities to reap the benefits of home ownership.

Condi "I don't recall" Rice? Yeah, what a gem.

R96, just stop. That is a trope advanced without evidence by Larry Kudlow and others seeking to drag down Democrats. The reality is that deregulation of the lending industry, a flood of capital, and greedy lenders caused the crisis. Not “undeserved” (sic) communities.

Homeownership did not increase in this period for poor people. Instead, middle class people bought aspirational housing on the assumption that real estate would always go up. I know two people who declared bankruptcy, despite valiant attempts to work with the banks. They were far from poor, though it has taken them a long time to recover.

This revolting demon of a drunkard, drug-addicted product of nepotism, is a piece of shit from head to toe and has been incongruously and unjustifiably redeemed by the corporate media after they all went crazy over Trump.

He has every defect imaginable: stupid, lazy, dishonest, greedy, immoral, an addict, an incompetent failure, a genocidal murderer and a corporate stooge. Cheney, Rumsfeld (when he was still polluting the world with his repulsive presence), Condoleezza Rice, Wolfowitz, Powell and this monkey-faced, sociopathic retard ought to have been tried for crimes against humanity, locked in dark, dingy cells and been forgotten about for the rest of their noxious existences.

It's unbelievable that this piece of shit would be regarded as anything other than a blot on humanity.

^ Oops. Wrong thread.

^ The DL gremlins are out there this morning.

I 100% agree with you r99. The revisionism of W. Bush is revolting. He was everything you described. It was 8 years of one disaster after another.

He also pushed subprime mortgages, not just Barney Frank (who, let's be honest, is a few cards short of a full deck).

Cheney and Rumsfeld were not making the decisions. Bush was. Some of you are turning somersaults to see this man as less than a bold criminal who hated America, which is what he was.

Of course America under Trump proved him right, but I like to think there was a time when people were better....

Pushing subprime mortgages, R103, was a bipartisan effort.

r104 Cheney and Rumsfeld were definitely pulling the strings. Bush was a moron, who listened to everything they whispered into his ear. Not to say that Bush wasn't complicit in it and totally corrupt as well. He was.

Not true R107. How foolish you are to apportion blame. Bush was very much in charge the whole time.

r108 he was influenced by Cheney and Rumsfeld, this is well known. Of course he was just as awful as both of them.

[quote] Some of you are turning somersaults to see this man as less than a bold criminal who hated America, which is what he was.

Bush was a bad president but, unlike Trump, he was no criminal (he wasn't even impeached by a Democratic Congress!) & he did not hate America.

He was a criminal. He sold access to the White House when his dad was president. He thought up a fraud to exaggerate Harkness profit and then sold his shares on insider trading. He got his wealth through eminent domain fraud with the Texas Rangers. Every dime that fucker has earned was dishonestly got.

And yes he hated America. He gave away America's naval secrets by letting the Chinese service and reverse engineer our submarines, eliminating one third of our nuclear deterreent triad, the biggest strategic reverse for the USA since the 1950s.

And he insisted on running foreign policy like a protection racket, and proving America was no different than any banana republic, embracing torture, secret rendition, and meanwhile not bothering to look for bin Laden.

I'm glad to see that R111 and R112 is letting the both sideser/Bush apologist troll have it. I think said troll must be on the Bush Library payroll or something.

Bush must have done something right to merit Trump’s fiery wrath.

[quote]I'm glad to see that [R111] and [R112] is letting the both sideser/Bush apologist troll have it.

Yet you're okay with r112's lunatic claim that George W. Bush "hated America".

The worst things about George W. Bush is that he let Cheney persuade him into invading Iraq, that he wanted to occupy Iraq instead of leaving immediately after victory, and that he was soft on illegal immigration. He was a Bush Republican and that is definitely a bad thing.

But the administration was classy!

George W. Bush and Karl Rove had reading contests. George also paints. Karl is an amateur gourmet chef.

Laura is graceful and elegant.

Condoleezza Rice is a lover of classical music and pianist.

Donald Rumsfeld loved gardening and antiquing.

Dick Cheney knows scotch and hunting.

Colin Powell was Colin freaking Powell, the most admired man in America until 2003.

R114, Trump didn't like any of the Bush family because they refused to endorse him and wouldn't come to the convention. As the last Republican president, it would have been expected for W to give a speech. Plus, the family pretty much said they were for Hillary (without actually saying it).

^^Also because he said he always opposed the Iraq War.

Cheney and Rumsfeld continuously fought with Powell. Bush did not like conflict and pushed it off on Rice. Although intelligent and tactful, before being NSA her highest government position was as a Senior Director in the NSC, which is mid-level. She was tasked with coordinating the egos and rivalries of

A Vice President who previously served as Secretary of Defense and White House Chief of Staff;

A Secretary of State who had previously served as Four Star General, Chairman of the Joints Chiefs of Staff, and had held her own position of National Security Advisor, and

A Secretary of Defense who also had been White House Chief of Staff and was on his second tour running the Pentagon.

Don't forget Cheney and Rumsfeld were two old friends. Powell, at the time, was the most admired man in the world.

"Powell, at the time, was the most admired man in the world. "

And that all went to shit when he knowingly lied about WMDs in Iraq to the UN Security Council.

As a former president, Bush at least deserves credit for speaking out against his (estranged) party & the 1/6 insurrectionists.

You've set the bar so low anyone who isn't mentally ill would vross it R122

[quote]As a former president, Bush at least deserves credit for speaking out against his (estranged) party & the 1/6 insurrectionists.

He does not deserve "credit" for stating the obvious and doing the bare minimum.

Stop defending this war criminal.

"He deserves credit for not being a Trumper! He stole an election, governed to the right of Reagan, tried to enshrine homophobia in the U.S. constitution to score political points, ignored warnings about 9/11, invaded Iraq but let Osama Bin Laden get away for 8 years, allowed New Orleans to drown, and generally embarrassed the U.S. through two Presidential administrations, but let's all celebrate the man for not being just one degree worse and supporting Trump, too!"

War criminal is a serious charge, R124. You sound like Trump. Do you want him criminally indicted? If so, should all the Senate Democrats who gave him a blank check be indicted for co-conspiracy, also?

From Peter Baker & Susan Glasser's The Divider, the clubhouse leader for the definitive book on the Trump Presidency:

"The population changes transformed the Republican Party too. George W. Bush, who said that immigration 'is not a problem to be solved' but 'a sign of a confident and successful nation,' aggressively pushed for a pathway to legal status for millions already in the country without documents, only to be rejected by fellow Republicans."

R127 They are great writers

You guys are right. The white washing of his administration has to stop. He was as stupid and dangerous as has been claimed. Trump’s hellish term does not excuse what Bush did to America and the world.

He presided over the lowest growth, highest unemployment and ballooned the national debt from a surplus.....he's a war criminal, and doesn't believe in the codification of gay rights....so I'd say pretty much he was a failure and a giant asshole

Bush was probably Cheney's puppet in most things.

^ Enough with this tired trope. For better or (mostly) worse, W. was calling the shots in his White House.

[quote]W. was calling the shots in his White House.

Yes, he did, since he held the title of President, while Cheney pulled the strings.

Cheney only pulled such strings as he was allowed. However, it is well to remember he had a business relationship with Qaddafi

I voted for "God Awful" which in datalounge fashion I should point out is properly just one word, "godawful."

As godawful as the Bush II presidency was, it fades into a pleasant memory when faced with the treasonous, larcenous and shiteous Dump presidency.

Not at all. Bush was all about treason too. Or did you forget about Bandar Bush and the airlift of Saudi royals out of the country after 9.11?

Dick Cheney did protect his lesbian daughter Mary and her partner, now wife, Heather. If I remember correctly, Karl Rove tried to make it an issue for the campaign and Cheney ended the discussion real fast.

I respect that.

r137, would that would cause you to acquit Cheney of war crimes?

Can we posthumously charge Robert McNamara along with Cheney, R138?

R138 no, but I admire a man that protects and supports his family.

They did make it an issue in the 2004 campaign, r137. Cheney didn't stand up for shit.

Not true, R141. You're now engaged in gaslighting.

OK. Whatever.

I haven't forgotten anything about Bush II, R136, (well maybe some things) they just pale into insignificance when reflecting on Dump's many astounding overt acts of treason against the United States while he was the sitting POTUS.

It is mind boggling. As a nation, we haven't even faced what Dump did to us yet. We may never face it, that's not exactly our strong suit. It's fine to point out other bad presidents, all quite true, but Dump is special and especially awful. If you can't even acknowledge that, I really don't know what to tell you.

So true, R144. And let’s take a moment to appreciate all the Bush voters who recognize the existential threat posed by Trumpism & are now reliably Democrat.

His was the worst American presidency in American history if you place any value on non-US lives. If you don’t, Trump’s was the worst.

^ With the notable exception of African lives.

I fundamentally disagree with you, R146.

To paraphrase from the lovely and talented James Carville, "It's the TREASON, stupid."

I'm not saying you're stupid, it's the treason, among other things, that push Dump into a different league altogether. It's the fucking coup attempt that was in deadly earnest as far as I'm concerned. This "oh it was just a bunch of crazy MAGATs down at the Mall." No, it was organized paramilitary fascists driving a mob to violence and using that mob as cover for an attempted overthrow of the United States of America.

And then there's all his shit with Putin. Let's not even commence with that insanity.

George W Bush did a lot of seriously evil shit - I don't require a refresher course on it. He never tried to overthow the US using white supremacists, fascists and lunatics. He went through the usual suspects for his shit-show.

As weird as it may seem to you, I vastly prefer George W Bush to Donald Dump. I'm old, I've lived through a few presidents, political upheavals and a few wars/invasions. I'm clear in my mind as to what has been going on in my country and exactly what I think about it.

R148. It seems you don’t disagree with me. If you don’t take into account the tens of thousands of Iraqi deaths, Bush was a better president than Trump. What Trump did domestically was far worse than anything Bush did.

No, R149, you keep trying to parse it and I'm not agreeing with that. Even taking into account the Iraqi deaths (and the Afghani deaths and all the other goddamn deaths) I think that Dump was a worse president of the United States than George W. Bush.

Mind you, that's as a [italic] president of the United States. [/italic] As a president of Iraq perhaps Mr Bush would be assessed very differently.

We do not agree on this. That's fine. You are welcome to your opinion and I am welcome to mine.

R150. Thank you for letting me know I’m entitled to my own opinion. That’s very magnanimous considering I never remotely suggested you weren’t entitled to you r own opinion. But I am nonetheless glad I have your permission

I don’t think you know what parse means. And your second post again confirms you share my evaluation of the two men

I know exactly what "parse" means and used it just as I meant to use it.

You are most welcome for whatever it was you thanked me for up there. I must have dozed off.

I don't think we are in agreement at all for the reasons stated in a prior post. Of course you must suit yourself and do please post yet another reply. I will not respond and will allow you to have the last word. Enjoy it!

R152 has stated his pompous boundaries.

Someone's working overtime posting 30+ posts on this thread to defend George W. Bush and accuse you of "gaslighting" if you disagree with their rewriting of history.

Gay Marriage was a huge issue in 2004 because W. made it a huge issue to score votes, and Cheney did nothing to stop it.

The President is and was a simpleton. Cheney was the real President and for what he did in Iraq he should be serving MULTIPLE life terms in prison but he got off Scott free.

[quote] Gay Marriage was a huge issue in 2004 because W. made it a huge issue to score votes, and Cheney did nothing to stop it.

Very true, but - in the interest of fairness, as always - Democrats were not campaigning in support of marriage equality. It would take another eight years - until May 2012 - for vice president Biden, campaigning then for re-election, to take the lead on this issue.

No one has mentioned Karl Rove - architect of Bush's campaigns and as evil in his own way as Steve Bannon. One of his favorite tricks was to encourage Republicans in various close states to put something on the ballot that would inflame people and get them to come out and vote - for instance, in my state, they put on a referendum that gun purchasers would have to demonstrate that they had undergone gun safety training. Well, that brought out the single-issue NRA voters in droves. Likewise, Karl Rove cynically used gay rights measures and anti-gay measures to beef up evangelical votes in borderline states, and push polls that would ask people if they would vote for a lesbian when a woman was on the ballot. A truly despicable man. And Bush used him extensively in both of his presidential campaigns.

[quote] One of his favorite tricks was to encourage Republicans in various close states to put something on the ballot that would inflame people and get them to come out and vote

Trick?! That's commonplace on both sides.

R154. I’m not sure iR148 is gaslighting. It’s clear from his posts that he’s intellectually really limited. It’s difficult to make any logical sense of his posts, and he uses big words he doesn’t understand. However, because of his stupidity, thinks he’s the smartest guy in the room, just like Bush.

I would not normally insult a person’s intelligence, but he’s also personally vile.

I love the Bush-loving Lincoln Project.

Steve Schmidt of the Lincoln Project is the person actually responsible for convincing John McCain to take on Sarah Palin as his VP running mate, even though he knew she was woefully inexperienced, unintelligent, and totally unqualified for president. McCain was very much against it but Schmidt convinced that that was the only path for him to win the election in 2008 and he relented. The were hoping to pull in enough votes from the south and rural America to snag the win. The fact that since Trump he has attempted to pass himself of as a bearer standard of reason, having a moral compass or being a patriot is laughable. Without Sarah Palin being hoisted on the national stage, the bar for someone as preposterous as Donal Trump for president would not have been possible.

R162 Yeah, I agree. McCain almost picked Joe Lieberman. The bipartisan consensus is that would they would have been a great team.

Lieberman sucked in 2000 and would have sucked in 2008.

[quote] Yeah, I agree. McCain almost picked Joe Lieberman. The bipartisan consensus is that would they would have been a great team.

Link please. McCain suffered from not having a committed GOP base. Picking Palin was an effort to shore up that weakness. Lieberman, a former democrat, a former Democrat who was Gore's running mate, would not have helped in that respect. In any event, after 9/15, no Republican was going to win that year.

R162, I think you're mistaken on the details of the Palin pick but it's too late, even with my insomnia, to go looking up the people who actually convinced McCain to go with Palin. It wasn't Steve Schmidt although he may have gone along with the others not knowing how fucking stupid and ill-suited to the VP slot she'd be.

We had joy, we had fun….

R166, I'm thinking it was Mark Salter who pushed Palin on McCain. And Schmidt was in the same boat dealing with her as was Nicolle Wallace.

Bush’s two terms were abhorrent on so many levels. The president defines the administration thus, he owns all his failures - and there were many. Let’s not forget the horrific images of the army soldiers laughing while taking selfies with tortured prisoners. Bush owns all of that. And Katrina.

Still, he showed a sense of *humanity* every so often after leaving office and I think it’s human nature for us to grab hold of anything positive we can - especially after four years of Trump - to gild our memories and remove the cognitive dissonance of having such a repellent president and leader.

I’m not sure how much humanity even that gesture indicates. It’s quite likely he never cared about gay marriage to begin with, but winning re-election was more important than gay people. Now that it doesn’t matter, he can make a small gesture to rehabilitate his gay rights reputation.

Ugly smirking frat boy chimp face at R169. Bush was terrible, don't buy into the gaslighting troll that's all over this thread.

Those people set us up for failure. We had jobs and an excellent quality of life during the Clinton years. As soon as the Clintons were gone, jobs disappeared and terrorists attacked us.

George W Bush was disastrous on a lot of levels. I've said that many times. No sane person would deny it.

Dump was just significantly worse and, to me, makes W look good in comparison.

It's an opinion, it's reasonable. I'm not gaslighting. Relax.

W was a very emotional person

As was his father, R174.

R126 there is pretty indisputable evidence that he knowingly lied about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq (his own credible intelligence said there were none) to start that war, and he also had political and personal gain in doing so. There are actually several states he could not visit, as there are criminal charges pending. Yes they are serious charges, and maybe you should google more and mouth off less.

^Link, please?

Hello?? THE UNREAD 2001 PDB ABOUT BIN LADEN ATTACKING THE US?!?!

And what about "Illegal invasion in 2003 of sovereign and non-combatant Iraq after perjured testimony by Powell and Rice" puzzles you, OP?

Or "Hurricane Katrina"?!

Not OP (??), R178, but how, exactly, was it an “illegal invasion” when it was expressly authorized by the Congress? A bad decision. A tragic invasion. But “illegal”?!

Ever heard of International Laws to which the United States (and the UK, our fellow war criminal state) is a signatory, R179?

Yeah, they SUPERCEDE US laws, just as they superceded the Lebensraum "laws" of Nazi Germany and today's "laws" of Russia "allowing" her ILLEGAL invasion of Ukraine.

We in 2003 committed an ILLEGAL ACT of Aggression....

Based on lies, perjury, fabrications, deliberate misleadings, our betrayal of an arrangement with Saddam Hussein,** and the bizarre claim of Dubya that "he tried to kill my Daddy."

Oh, and oil. If it's the Middle East, it's about oil and the ownership thereof.

When we invaded, our troops were assigned to protect the Oil Ministry, and allowed the looting of museums of priceless historic artifacts---another WAR CRIME, as protection of the latter is required by, you guessed it, International Law.

Remember how we were going to "bring democracy" to the "suffering and tortured by Saddam" Iraqis? And that we began that bogus "humanitarian mission" by KILLING IRAQI CIVILIANS with "Shock and Awe," the explosions and flames of which provided entertainment for us back here, gloating in mistaken revenge for an attack committed by SAUDIS?!

And that---oh, the IRONY!---WE TORTURED IRAQIS in the name of democracy and the United States. Abu Ghraib. Never forget.

DO YOU REMEMBER?!

**We invaded, besides just wanting the oil and the BILLION$ awaiting Dubya's business pals in "reconstruction," (NOT TO BE LIGHTLY DISMISSED), because supposedly Saddam refused to allow International Inspectors in to assess his weaponry, that he didn't meet our deadline.

ANOTHER US GOVT EQUIVOCATION for public consumption. Saddam simply didn't want his enemy Iran to find out how badly Iraq's munitions had degraded and were diminished, which UN Inspectors would make public.

IOW, Saddam was bluffing, the US of course knew it, but we dishonestly claimed he was armed to the teeth and would use his might somehow against us if we didn't strike first.

Hanging assured his eternal silence.

"Oh, Dear" to myself:

SUPERSEDE, with double s. Sorry!

The best thing GWB did was to quietly fade away at the end of his presidency.

Yes, R182, & assured Obama a peaceful transfer of power.

It is interesting how each president retires. It fits their personalities:

Gerald Ford skied and attended sporting charity events

Jimmy Carter built houses for the poor

Reagan was mostly sick

George H.W. Bush played on the PGA Tour and lived quietly in Maine or Houston

Bill Clinton travels the world and gives public speeches

Junior retired quietly in Texas to read and enjoy family

Barack Obama is a celebrity living his best life

Trump is engrossed in legal battles and criminal charges

Biden probably won't live long

Fortunately, the Democratic Party has a big tent. And that tent houses both the most bitter W. antagonists & those who are refugees of the pre-Trump GOP.

The Iraqi invasion, all the obvious lies preceeding it, and the complicity of congress and the media was a travesty. American prestige and moral authority, whatever was left of it before the war, was completely washed away.

R186, American leadership among the NATO Allies seems to be intact. See Ukraine, Russian invasion of.

In the bad old days, I never thought I'd see a worse president than Richard M Nixon. Then Reagan came along and he was plenty bad but, perhaps, not as bad as Nixon had been so we moved on. Then there was George HWB, he wasn't great but he was tolerable. Then we moved on to Clinton, he was a good president on many, many levels. Then it was George W Bush's turn and I thought he was just godawful. Iraq was unforgivable, Katrina was unforgiveable, GWB was unforgivable. I thought he might be worse than Nixon but on balance, no he wasn't. We went on to President Obama - he was great. Then Dump, who is actually, provably, obviously the worst POTUS we have ever had in this country. The worst. Don't give me the litany of GWB's faults, I know them and I'd take four years of him over four years of Dump the Fascist any day.

Donald Trump, terrible president or WORST PRESIDENT EVER? Definitely the worst POTUS ever, we were cursed the day we elected him and we will stay cursed until we drive him out of public life in shame and disgrace.

I skipped over poor President Carter, a man who was probably too good to be the POTUS but who tried anyway and has a wonderful legacy as a former POTUS, that's for sure.

I guess I’m in the minority who thinks Carter was a better president than he was a former one.

W was over his head.

Anybody who considers Carter's presidency worse than George W Bush's has his head up his ass.

Nobody with any intelligence considers Carter's presidency as worse than W's.

GOPLounge

R188, I, r180, agree with your post 100%. But the OP asked about Bush 43.

There is no comparison of any other US President to the treason of Donald Trump. Literal criminal treason. I posted years ago that he was not a dupe, not a useful idiot, but a bona fide agent of Russia, and has been from his early days, when his old man played footsie with the Mob.

Then with Giuliani's help the Russian Mob took over the NY/NJ area, and that was The Don's destiny.

People who mock Trump for "letting his AC casinos go bankrupt" don't understand the Mob's M.O. of buying legit, siphoning off all monies, then leaving the dry husk.

He didn't seek Trump Tower Paris; he wanted Moscow. He didn't take Miss Universe to London; he picked Moscow. He married a woman from Communist Czechoslovakia, with a father monitored by the KGB.

More on Trump and Moscow:

Yes, Trump is/was much worse than Nixon.

R195. 100, 000 or so dead Iraqis might have a different opinion.

And let’s not ignore the take on 43 by many living Africans.

I always felt bad for Harriet Miers.

She was bush's lawyer and friend. She had no business being nominated and she think it was smart. She got publicly humiliated for no real reason.

Too bad Republicans foiled Bush on his Miers nomination. She was a better choice than her replacement, Sam Alito.

Well the Gee Bush administration was far better than the last two administrations, by a million miles .

Yeah. At least Bush didn’t get us into an unnecessary war like Biden.

R201 I agree. She most likely would have been confirmed. As would Alberto Gonzales.

Believe it or not, they would be moderates compared to Alito and Thomas.

Which is worse--falling face first into a pile of dogshit or getting stung by a swarm of wasps?

Bush and Trump are both awful, just in different ways.

[quote] At least Bush didn’t get us into an unnecessary war like Biden.

Boris!!!

At least Laura was classy

R198, Did you read r180? That's me, r195, too. And yes, were I an Iraqi, I would undoubtedly see Bush as the worst.

But I'm an American.

And I see 400K Americans dead of Covid-19 because the Trump Administration delayed and denied (yes, more died post-Trump, mainly because of Republican opposition in Congress and on the SCOTUS to Biden mask and vaccine plans).

But beyond a comparison of deaths, I see my country getting within a hair's breadth of a Fascist coup complete with Martial Law.

THANK GOD FOR DAN QUAYLE, who actually had to tell the sitting Vice-President of the United States that no, there was no legal Constitutional means to "send a slate of Electors back to the states" or do anything else but rubber-stamp them.

THANK GOD FOR MIKE PENCE GETTING AFRAID FOR HIS OWN LIFE, refusing to take that Secret Service ride to some unknown destination.

THANK GOD FOR THE CAPITOL COPS, out-numbered and brutalized, but especially the one who stopped Ashli Babbitt literally dead in her tracks, thereby stopping others.

So with all due respect to the Iraqis, innocent victims of brutal geopolitics, I must perforce place the near-loss of American democracy at the top.

Moreover, unlike the war in Iraq, our fight against Fascism on the Right continues.

R202, Better than Obama? Or Biden? Are you nuts?

R203, Sarcasm or utter stupidity? If the former, please keep your day job. If the latter, please immediately DIAGF, for ignoring Iraq.

Bush was guilty of treason also. He let Chinese reverse engineer our nuclear submarine deterrent.

R210 is prosecutor, judge & jury. Congrats!

He also stole the presidency twice and greenlighted nine-eleven.

He was bad, but the country was 10X more stable under him. Not a shitshow like it is under Biden.

When I see so-called liberals claiming W. wasn't that bad in hindsight because Trump was so much worse, I can't help but wonder what could be coming from the deplorables after Trump, and how these same people will whitewash Trump when that happens because the new guy is "so much worse." You saw this exact same thing with this set of "liberals" and Reagan when W. was in office and "so much worse."

Traitors. Scum.

R213. I know! I’m glad someone else is fed up with the Biden chaos. One day it’s this! One day it’s that! I could give examples, but where to start????

Give me decades off 9-11 and the Great Recession any day. That’s a picnic compared to what we’ve gone through the last two years. Don’t you agree?

R212 is a full spectrum conspiracist. The Walmart of conspiracies.

Lol R213, what "shitshow?" The shitshow was 3 years ago, hon, when Trump was in office. Everything since then has been markedly better for the vast majority of us, including your privileged ass I'm sure.

Well, it appears DLers are aligned with Trump on at least one issue ... their mutual hatred of Bush.

Many of the current crop of conservative "never Trumpers" are people who worked for Bush or had ties to the Bush administration. Kudos to them for speaking out against Trump, but they want us to believe that the Bush years were the "good old days" of the GOP, when the reality is that the Bush years were horrible.

One of the only things I like about Bush is that during Trump's inauguration, he apparently turned to Hillary Clinton after Trump finished his speech and said, "That was some weird shit."

[quote] Many of the current crop of conservative "never Trumpers" are people who worked for Bush or had ties to the Bush administration. Kudos to them for speaking out against Trump,

The Never Trumpers are also sometimes now the difference in delivering victories to Democrats.

R219 True in some regard. However, a lot of the Never Trump Republicans were from the H.W. moderate Republicanism mold.

For them, being a Republican meant being wealthy, sophisticated, intelligent, a cut above the rest of the world. A Republican would never EVER involve themselves in public name calling. Republicans understand the complexities of the economy and foreign policy. Social issues are for the poor, the Jews, the blacks, and the Democrats.

H.W., James Baker, Scowcroft, Colin Powell, Olympia Snowe, Robert Gates, Jon Huntsman, Judd Gregg, and even Condoleezza Rice come to mind.

r215 - you're so right! Imagine thinking that 20 million people losing their homes and credit ratings, an unemployment rate of 10%, and the entire banking system teetering on the brink of failure was serious compared to these disastrous past 2 years. The very idea. Take this current unemployment rate of 3.5%. Horrific. Biden should be so ashamed.

[quote] However, a lot of the Never Trump Republicans were from the H.W. moderate Republicanism mold.

Do you watch MSNBC at all? The channel is heavily populated with veterans of W.'s administration.

R223 I don't

R221 Republicanism never meant that. Ever. Like a typical Republican, you think you can sell any lie about history.

[quote]For them, being a Republican meant being wealthy, sophisticated, intelligent, a cut above the rest of the world.

Classist and ableist, with a side of dog-whistle. Got it.

R225 what do you think the Republican Party meant. Pre Gingrich, W, and Trump.

I can't speak for r225, but starting with Nixon and more explicitly, with Reagan, the Republican party meant "the Southern strategy" of associating black people with the Democratic Party and the danger that they represented to the White People of the South. I don't associate that strategy with "wealthy, sophisticated, intelligent, a cut above the rest of the world".

I would agree that people like William Buckley thought of HIMSELF in those terms, although people like Gore Vidal, with similar pedigrees were always able to cut him down to size. But William Buckley was not the standard bearer of the Republican Party, and most Republicans were not in his mold. Centrist Republicans played a more important role in the party prior to Reagan, but there were always John Birch Society types lingering in it, (Joe McCarthy was a Republican in the 1950s), and Goldwater was far from a centrist.

Probably the country operated much better when there was not a huge difference between a Henry Jackson (centrist Democrat) and Nelson Rockefeller (centrist Republican), between an Eisenhower and a Stevenson. But there were always strong tugs to the extreme wings of both parties even in those marginally more civilized times.

William F. Buckley was an old FAG, light in the loafers!

"Early this year, I chided Democrats for failing to acknowledge Bush’s heroism in creating PEPFAR. I wrote that column because we all have cognitive biases that nudge us toward self-congratulatory narratives in which our own side is virtuously battling idiots on the other side. PEPFAR reminds us of the complicated truth, which is that in 2003, Bush both began a catastrophic war that killed hundreds of thousands of people and also started a program that saved 25 million lives."