Will and Grace: what say you, DL?

"ad naseum'

lern to spel

Funny because I am rewatching it right now. I enjoyed it and still do. It gets a lot of shit here but it was a sitcom on network TV.

Overall, I enjoyed it a lot. Went off the rails with Grace's marriage. But iIt was fun. It was suited to network. You want Will in semen stained sheets or talking water based vs silicone lube over brunch, you're talking HBO.

Well, it was no Golden Girls.

[quote] I found … Karen grating

‘Honey, tact is for people who aren’t witty enough to be sarcastic.’

It's not really "recent" since the initial run started 25 years ago.

It was OK. In the initial run, Karen was the best part, especially Jack and Karen. In the abysmal reboot, they changed her role slightly (especially in the beginning) and made her more of a let-them-eat-cake Trumper. I suppose it was to amp up the drama and make people want to watch, but that was just never Karen. Karen was always all about a good time.

The original ran about a third too long.

I mean, I enjoy seeing it sometimes but only a few episodes stand out. Most of the time, a specific line reading or bit was the funniest part.

And I think a lot of gay men weren't interested because, for all the promised diversity and bravery of having a show with a gay leading man, the weird way they kept pushing Will and Grace's relationship (non sexual romance? utter codependency?) felt like a cop out to those of us who wanted to see Will have a really full, great life with a guy. No way a handsome lawyer would have been single for that long.

Get it right.

𝙏𝙝𝙚 𝙆𝙖𝙧𝙚𝙣 𝙎𝙝𝙤𝙬

Rosario added a lot to the show.....probably why the reboot didn't take

There have been plenty of Will and Grace threads in the past few years, just type "Will and Grace" into the search

Better -- Google "datalounge will & grace" and more than a dozen threads show up, OP.

R9, are you sure this isn't the first one???

R9 R10 of course I imagined there were some, I just never really saw any since I've been on.

I liked it then, liked it now...but it's hard work sometimes. Everything is over written and over played. Grace and Will are good, Jack is an acquired taste. The Karen character, why?

OP not only can't spell, doesn't know how to use the search function, and sounds like a general idiot, he has terrible taste if he thinks that Jack was the highlight of the show.

It was amusing and lively but I rarely found it all that funny tbh.

What is this, hunny, what is this? What’s it all about??!?!

Great show. I liked the reboot at the start, but it went downhill pretty quickly, especially Messing.

I know a gay guy and straight woman similar to Will and Grace. Both in early 30s

They’ve been living together for about 8 years and recently bought a house together . They go on vacation and just about everything else with each other.

She never has a boyfriend (she’s not gay) and hardly see him with a man (only saw him with a guy once)

It’s all very weird to me.

So, I guess there are people like Will and Grace.

Loved it the...loved seeing it brought back. Jacks bf Estefan was a cute addition. Sean Hayes is wonderful. Everyone should watch the scene where Jack puts on the numbing cream..its comedy gold and wasn't a definite golden scene if in the wrong hands. Will was a guy who wasn't comfortable being himself (even if he'd been str8)...and Jack was so good being his silly self; although delightfully deluded. Will needed Jack like George Michael needed Andrew Ridgely....and that's the heart of the show...it probably should be called Will & Jack.

R14 why so angry? Make yourself some cocoa and breath, man.

The English tart who guest starred was hilarious.

Love "Will & Grace." Best network show in the past 25 years. Great acting, great writing, superb cast. I even liked the reboot a few years ago.

The gays don't like any project unless it portrays them as rich, happy and hot. In other words, fantasy.

OP, Why don't you start weekly threads about Will & Grace!

Every week, without fail, a new thread on some specific topic related to Will & Grace.

You could start threads on every nuance of the show from guest stars to theme music to inconsistencies between story points in various episodes to Will's many dates.

I'm sure there are many, many, many topics to discuss ad nauseam.

Fairly funny. I did love the Karen character.

I liked it the first 3 or 4 seasons. Karen and Jack took over the show and not in a good way. All that was missing was Karen saying Dy-No-Mite. To many sexless lovers for Will. Rosario was the best thing on the show. In the early seasons not everybody had Deb Messing yet. She wasn't annoying.

Love them all. Of course, Karen was a damn hoot. Grace was pretty funny herself. The writing was the best on TV.

I can’t stand Eric McCormack.

Op, you’re late to the party. You should’ve been here 20 years ago.

I loved Eric's sci fi show. The Travelers. Incredibly well written and acted. I thought he would suck in it because it was so different. It was really good though.

I agree with r7, it was the Karen show. Will and Grace were boring. Jack was a stereotypical flaming queen. The only main character worth watching was Karen. Other than her, the only draw was the guest stars, which is why they came to rely on them so much.

Qui etait cette cunt?

The Best TV shows ever:

The Mary Tyler Moore Show

Designing Women

Will & Grace

The Powers That Be

High Society

You forgot the Waltons.

I can only take it in small doses. Still, it's better than the Golden Girls (the appeal of which completely eludes me).

[quote]it's better than the Golden Girls (the appeal of which completely eludes me).

^^ Agree.

Responsible for some brilliant television over the course of its 2 runs. The writing was often very sharp and most of the time much funnier than any other sitcom on tv at the time. The performances of the four leads started out strong and just got better and better as the series progressed.. And I do believe its consistently high quality and long run diid make a real difference in the world of LGBQTA representation. The characters were ridiculous and hilarious and lovable. And they became ‘family’ to many in America. Like any other show, it was FAR from perfect and there were sections of seasons that were just silly and tedious. But, yes, I believe Will and Grace changed the world.

I adore it. When it initially ran, I actually didn't care for a lot of it. Always found Will and Jack annoying. As I've gotten older, I can now see how truly great it was. And have come to actually kind of love the things I didn't like at first. Will is still annoying, but Grace is actually a hoot. Jack I've just come to love. And of course Karen is basically the whole show. It would have never worked without her, or Jack. They're the necessary contrast to Will and Grace. I've also come to love looking back at the gay take on humor, culture, etc. at the time. Some things have changed, a lot hasn't. But Karen is, hands down, one of the best sitcom characters ever. That's comedic gold right there. And the jokes were brilliant. Kind of feels like the last time comedy was actually funny.

We don't talk about it as much as other shows because it wasn't for us. It was gay media aimed at straight people. Not to criticize it too harshly; it did provide gay exposure on network TV, and it arguably helped bring about gay marriage as Joe Biden cited it as one of the reasons he changed his position on the issue. But we weren't the target audience.

[quote] Joe Biden cited it as one of the reasons he changed his position on the issue.

Thank god we have such a deep thinker in the White House

R33, Curatress of the Obscure Gay Cult TV Digital Museum and Digital Caftanporium.

I stopped watching when I realized the network double standard: How neurotic-and-flat Grace always had a boyfriend, but handsome-gay-lawyer Will never got laid in NYC.

It's unrealistic. Will would be slamming ass all over the West Side, and Grace would be living in Tuckahoe with her mother and five cats.

I've been rewatching and it is amazing how flat chested Grace is. She has two tiny little bumps. Nice legs though.

One of the things I'm noticing is that despite Karen being the rich one with designer clothing and ridiculing Grace's fashion sense, Grace is far more stylish.

R44 What the hell do YOU know about fashion? You floated over here on an inner-tube wearing nothing but a banana leaf and a couple of coconuts!

I hated how the show was about Will's true romantic love for Grace; if it weren't for his sick attraction to men, they would be together. HATED IT.

I REALLY hated how before the (original) final season, the show runners said they might have Will start dating women, since that's something they hadn't explored yet. ?????? He was allegedly GAY.

And then Karen morphing into some bisexual sex pest was sick.

I fucking hated this show.

Don't hate me but my favorite moment on the show was when Grace's water tits started leaking at the art show. I also love the pocket rocket bottom Will dated for a while but he couldn't get over his "exuberance" for the dance when they were on the street. I would have fucked that bottom, over and over, until his brown eye looked like it had been through a meat grinder.

R47 I just saw that episode. It's called Das Boob. One of my favorites.

Karen Walker (Meghan Mullally on Will & Grace)

Sue Ann Nivens (Betty White on The Mary Tyler Moore Show)

Susan Sugarbaker (Delta Burke on Designing Women)

Three of the best sitcom characters on television ever.

SUSAN Sugarbaker?!

It didn’t have tv,s first gay character. You moron.

Megan Mullaly was always funny, and Sean Hayes, and even Deb Messing, frequently could be funny.

Eric McCormack was never funny, but he was also saddled with a bad role. Will always seemed angry, and his putdowns of Jack (supposedly his best friend after Grace) were always mean rather than funny.

The show had a weird mix of wonderful supporting and guest players (Leslie Jordan, Shelley Morrison, the guy who played Smitty), and awful ones (Harry Connick, Jr. and Bobby Cannavale).

Beverly Leslie and Karen had the best scenes together and the funniest insults.

“Karen Walker! I thought I smelled gin and regret…”

I was slightly too young to watch it live. I was just out of high school and just didn't care about sitcoms in my late teens/early 20s. But I love it now. Watch it all the time. It's oddly comforting when I just want to veg out. W&G and Frasier are my go to sitcoms.

Yes, it's really all about Karen. Even when I know a joke is coming (I've watched each episode many, many times) I still laugh.

Seaons 2-5 are really great. The show was generally a joke factory (one punch line after the next and on and on). However, the continuing story arc in seasons 4-5 about Will and Grace possibly having a kid together was very well played. At this point the famous guest stars were also generally well integrated into the storyline rather than just dumping a famous person in a show and not having them do anything of interest which would happen in later seasons. And Eric McCormack was so hot during this period of the show, too.

The introduction of Leo kind of unsettled the show in season 5. Why cast him in a major role if he couldn't be in each episode? His occasional entrances and exits from the show were awkward. In the later seasons, all the characters also became way too broad and cartoony.

[quote] I also love the pocket rocket bottom Will dated for a while but he couldn't get over his "exuberance" for the dance when they were on the street.

That’s a funny episode and the actor playing the dancer boyfriend is adorable. It would have been great if they brought him back a few seasons later to show Will had mellowed and wasn’t so hung up on appearances but instead they went with dumb cop

R42 R46 Yes, Grace always having a boyfriend and Will being made out to be some lonely, sad sack was an annoying feature of how the show was written.

It was really ridiculous when Grace and Will confronted each other over their mismatched boyfriends in season 4. Grace was dating slobby Nathan (Woody Harrelson) and Will dating a much young cashieer at the video store. They promise to break up with their odd lovers. Yet, Grace goes back on her promise and keeps dating Nathan, but Will (unbelievably) dumps this hot young guy. Really?

It was The Jack and Karen Show

[quote]Will and Grace: what say you, DL?

Of its time.

You know, there was this comedy called soap. I think Billy Crystal had a role .........

R21, I agree. Minnie Driver’s Lorraine Finster was a consistent delight. Her character and Leslie Jordan’s Beverly Leslie were terrific big characters playing off arguably the most ridiculous character of the core four—Karen Walker.

I also appreciated the smaller supporting characters in relationships—Joe & Larry, Ron & Ellen—that, in comparison, made Will & Grace’s platonic living situation seem far more interesting and cool.

Pocket Bottom. In real life he could have had a new cock every night.

Never watched it and never had an interest in it.

R47 Who are you kidding? It already looked at least that bad. How do you think he paid his way through that study abroad year at the Bolshoi Ballet?

Gregory Hines was the worst guest star. He had no point.

Eileen Brennan was the best. Zondra with a "Z." She saw right through Jack's fey bullshit and punished him accordingly.

And I don't say this lightly. That fucking show had more nonsense stunt-casting than ER had loose gunmen.

Zondra was fucking hysterical. She should have had a spinoff. Another favorite bit was when Karen finally cashed her paychecks.

Bobby Carnavale as Will's put-upon, low self-esteem cop boyfriend was very fumy.

I really enjoyed Debbie Reynolds as Bobbie Adler; you could tell she was having a ball hamming it up.

I loved the episode when Grace went with Will to his boyfriends house and got nailed by the hot, much younger cousin...or brother....whatever. I just remember him being the hottest thing I had seen in a long time.

The jazzy piano score was too goddamned loud!

Face it. Candance should have gotten return appearances on the Karen Show

I liked it at the time but grew tired of it when it was obvious Jack would never be anything more than a gay stereotype and not allowed to mature. I really liked when he was going to become a nurse (and I think he was supposed to be good at it), but they dropped that arc so he could be "Just Jack" again. Presumably, he got by by mooching off Will and Karen and the occasional whoring.

"Karen Walker. I thought I smelled gin and regret."

One of the best lines in any comedy in any year.

For actual gay sex scenes, you had to watch Queer As Folk on Showtime. Matt Bomer was a nice addition to the cast in the recent version. Will was even shown sharing a bed with him, though they were just reading.

Candy Pruitt was hilarious as Karen's frenemy, R72!

Joan Collins was funny as a competing designer stuffing her face at Taco Time.

It's the only time Madonna was funny in an acting role!

Eric and Sean have a podcast where they rewatch episodes.

Oh, God, remember that time Will's anus prolapsed while he and Grace were sanding the apartment floors!

Sweeps, I tell ya!

I'm a top!!!!

Will was a fussy bottom

The Barry Manliow episode always makes me laugh. I love this exchange between Karen and Sara Gilbert’s charactet Cheryl:

KAREN: So you and Barry are lovers?

CHERYL: God, no. I wish! I've never even met him. But he has brought me to climax more times than any other man.

Also fun is the episode where where Grace joins AA for free therapy and pastries.

R83 Bettah him than me!