When did you know you were gay?

I was attracted to women (not girls my age) when I was in first grade. I was in love with my teacher and some actresses on tv and some of my mother's friends. Then in high school, I became attracted to girls my age. As a child, I didn't know what those feelings meant so even though I had gay feelings, I didn't know I was gay until about age 16-17.

4. I told this to a friend of mine (who happens to be a noted and published expert in juvenile psychiatry) told me that this is the most common age for youngsters to make the realization. If it doesn't happen at that age, it's usually several years later.

I had a sense of being different since I was a very small boy - and in retrospect can see how I was gay back then (crushes on young male teachers, fascination in the swimming pool locker room, interest in my girl cousin’s dolls & toys, etc.)

But it wasn’t until I was 12 or 13 that I figured out what that all meant and discovered there was a name for it.

I knew when I was five that I had a crush on Bluto from the cartoon Popeye the sailor man. I couldn’t see what Olive Oyl saw in scrawny little bald Popeye compared to big bulking hairy Bluto. And then from maybe 11 to 13 I probably told myself at least a dozen times, OK, this is it, you are definitely gay. I remember repeating it to myself again and again, as if I was confirming it for the very first time.

I knew from a very young age that I like to look at men and desperately wanted to see their dicks. I also knew from very young that I should keep this to myself.

I didn't know there was a name for it until about 6 or 7 and that there were other boys who liked boys.

And I will say if I knew what gay meant at five, I probably would’ve known I was gay van and not when I was 11.

Like R5, the concept of gay was unknown to me, or else I may have known before age 11. I always knew I was a sissy and didn't like sports and would rather read than go outside. Once puberty hit and I'd learned a little more about the facts of life, it all fell together.

I would say at least by 5, though at that point I didn’t have a name for it.

Middle school for me. I had no clue when I was little. But in middle school, a group of us boys were spending the night at this one guy's house, we talked dirty, etc. and I really didn't have a clue what anything meant. We talked about masturbating, had anyone ever cum before, etc. At some point this guy David said "I dare you to let me put my dick in your mouth." So he did, and I started getting on that thing. He pulled it away, everyone laughed, and I could not stop thinking about it every day from that point forward. That's when I knew I was gay!

I told my Cub Scout den mother I wanted to be a private dancer like Tina Turner.

One of the reasons I come around these parts is because I almost always answer with the majority choice.

I loved playing doctor with the other boys when I was really young, like before kindergarten. I don't know if I was possibly molested and blacked it out entirely, or if I've always been someone who just likes touching naked boys (now men).

Same as r5, but didn't understand the concept of gay until around 12 and that's when I put it all together. But I do have a vivid recollection, around age 5, of seeing a friend's brother get pushed into the pool and then come out and run around in his wet tighty-whighty's and being completely obsessed with the bulge... I even suggested he take them off to let them dry.

When I kissed a girl and didn't like it.

That's fascinating, R2. I realized at 4 that I was different when my oldest (19 years senior, from my father's first marriage) sister brought her fiancé to my uncle's annual Summer swimming party and oh boy, was I smitten. I remember rubbing his face with my hand feeling the stubble, and demanding he hold me all afternoon as I melted into his big arms and hairy chest. I might have been the only family member who held a favorable impression of him; they married and divorced within a year.

Somehow my mother and I had a conversation when I was in my mid-30s about when I realized I was gay and I recounted this story. She told me she knew before then because whenever I was in a group of people, I would always go to a man in the group and hold up my arms in the universal "pick me up" stance, which they usually did. I have always preferred being physically close to men.

From birth, I was fascinated with women. At age 3, in kindergarten, I was in love with my best friend (another 3-year-old little girl) - I remember finding her beautiful and wanting to be alone with her, wanting her all for myself, and then my disappointment, at my fourth birthday party, at the realization she didn't like me the way I liked her, whatever that meant. From then on, I was in love with my teachers (adult women), until I started getting interested in women my own age as a young adult.

For the longest time I had no concept of what I was, however. As a teenager, I knew what a lesbian was, but I didn't understand I was one, perhaps because I wasn't stereotypically masculine (what I thought would be 'expected' from a lesbian back then, or what I thought a lesbian was supposed to look like). Today, I look back and it's all obvious, including the reasons why people always thought I was 'strange', as I have always been very, very bad at hiding my fascinations etc.

I was around 22 when, after having sex with a friend, I turned to him and said: "I think I'm a lesbian". I was experimenting with men to see how I felt, and... I / it didn't feel good, at all. So, that's when I knew beyond any shadow of a doubt, and when I actually said the word 'lesbian' for the first time (with regard to myself).

I was 8 yrs old in St Bridget's school in East Falls. An 8th grader came into the bathroom(Johnny McGinley) and took a piss at the urinal. Next thing I knew, I was in the stall watching Johnny shoot his load(ate some of it). Next day, went to the Falls of Schuylkill Library on Warden Drive near my home;looked up the word Homosexual in the encyclopedia and figured out why I was attracted to men. I went down on Johnny at "The Nuts" where the kids in East Falls(in Philly) went sledding in the winter. From Johnny to his older Bro Joey(seriously sexy 16 yr old) East Falls was like "a sexual Peyton Place" back in the late 70's.

I had crushes on the male heartthrobs (especially on The WB and Disney Channel) when I was little but it wasn't until I was 10 or 11 when I started playing with myself and noticing boys in the locker rooms that it was official for me.

I already knew something was different by the time I was 5 or 6-years old.

And by age 7 or 8, I was running home to watch "Dark Shadows" .. not because of the show itself, but because I was hoping Joel Crothers would be in the episode.

Yes, my gaydar was already quite exceptional.

As soon as the game of “doctor” started with hit blond boy across the street —2nd grade summer

We hit it off—he was hot ^

I played ‘doctor’ and all sorts of games with my next-door neighbor from the time I was probably 6 years-old. He was 8 months older than me. We would hump each other constantly— during sleepovers mostly, but also in the middle of the day after school. Any time we could get away from adults. This was in the mid-80s. I also got it on with a school friend starting around the same time. Same deal.

This went on for *several* years, but by the time I reached high school, I had switched allegiance to my new extraordinarily well-hung best friend, whom I met in 9th grade. All this time, I was actually never attracted to men. I felt strong sexual attraction to women, and went well out of my way to look at naked women—in Playboy, Penthouse, Hustler, etc. Never had any interest in naked men. Didn’t consider myself gay or even bisexual.

At some point in my mid-20s, after keeping my same-sex childhood & teen dalliances secret and mostly repressed, I decided I didn’t want to have sex with my then-girlfriend anymore, and we broke up. I pursued gay sexual encounters (almost all anonymous hookups) in an effort to rediscover the extreme arousal and pleasure I’d known as a boy with my school-age friends. I still had crushes (some severe) on girls up until I was maybe 30. That is ALL gone now, though.

Took me quite a while, I guess. I get the impression my experience is something of an anomaly among gay men.

4 years old and I had a case of Perthe’s disease in my left hip. In the mid 1970’s in the UK, it was cured by total immobility, not surgery: 5 days of bedrest on the back and two days on the stomach in a plaster cast each week. This was to prevent bedsores. I was off my feet for close to 9 months, then spent almost a year in physiotherapy learning to walk again.

I was stripped naked in an operating theatre and had hot plaster bandages from the neck to the feet applied by two male nurses. I guess my mind imprinted being touched by men in such an intimate way, even at that age… probably also explains my slightly left of centre sexual tastes, too…

When I was twelve. I, apropos of nothing, took my friend's dick in my mouth (a few times). He didn't get hard and I had no clue what I was doing.

I wanted it, though.

Didn't really suck cock until I was 21.

[quote] I was 8 yrs old in St Bridget's school in East Falls.

That was Grace Kelly's family parish.

This is very interesting. It seems like a lot of folks (about 88%) knew before they were 15. I’m not sure how many folks have responded and this is an informal poll. But I’d like to see more responses and see if the numbers shift any more.

Thanks to those who have responded!

Some DL straighties are in their fifties and still don't know.

To R25.....Yes it was!

[quote] "I would say at least by 5, though at that point I didn’t have a name for it."

Same, R8.

Why do gay men know so early while gay women often know quite late?

[quote]Why do gay men know so early while gay women often know quite late?

I don’t know that they know so late, but sexuality in women seems to be much more fluid. I’ve known a number of women who have married men, divorced them, started a long relationship with another woman, ended it, started dating a man. The easy answer would be that they’re bisexual, but it seems much more common than among men. I don’t know any bisexual men that haven’t either been in exclusive gay or exclusively straight relationships. They may have slept with men and women, but when it comes to relationships, they tend to pick one sex and stick with it.

So 🤷🏻

Either women are more self aware of their sexuality and open to change or men are less so.

Like LUGS. Lesbian Until Graduation. Women who are lesbians in college then marry men. I’ve known a ton of those but no gay men that married a woman after college. There isn’t even a phrase for it, it’s so uncommon.

I don’t believe there is an innate difference in the sexuality of men and women or even in the percentages that are bisexual, I think woman are just more open to expressing themselves that way. Part of it is machismo and this idea that men must be masculine and straight and if they’re bisexual, they aren’t allowed to act on it, while women don’t have that pressure. Men do dumb things like get married then get caught un sex stings in public parks because they’ll go to any length to hide their bisexuality.

And the Late in Life Lesbians-like Kelly McGillis and Meredith Baxter-I don’t believe for a second that they had no idea they were attracted to women until their 60s. I think they always knew and dated and married men and it was always there, but when they got divorced, it wasn’t some grand awakening. They always knew and just never acted on it.

I think basically men and women’s sexuality and awareness of it is probably the same, but we’re wired differently and grew up with different expectations about how and when we could express ourselves.

And the how we express ourselves is also very important. Amber Heard (America’s Sweetheart) was an out and proud lesbian. And then married Johnny Depp. So they may identify themselves as lesbians when they’re really and always were bisexual.

Amber Heard always identified as Bisexual.

I was sucking dick by the age of 5. Quit by thirteen after I'd been socialized it was only for homo's. I didn't taste cock again for another 32 years. Thankfully with age comes wisdom - and a lot of making up for lost time,

R32 Kelly McGillis and Meredith Baxter are lesbians, not bisexuals. Kelly dated women in the 80s, but after she was raped, she thought god is punishing her for being with women. So she started dating men

R31 "I’ve known a number of women who have married men, divorced them, started a long relationship with another woman, ended it, started dating a man"

When you say a number, do you mean 2 or 20?

Stealth Thread.

Vivian Vance, OP. It was 50 for me.

As a kid, I refused to accept I was gay. Was screwing girls in high school. Got married to a woman. Had kids.

Then at 50 I realized I was gay. Married man at 53. Been staring at male butts and VPL ever since.

Stupid, R37

[quote]Stealth Thread.

Stealth what?

R40, he’s calling it a steal ped0 thread.

So I guess that means gay men and women aren’t allowed to discuss their childhood or adolescent/teenage sexual awakenings ever. Not sure what such a discussion has to do with pedophilia.

Only mental midgets make such accusations.

R38 wasted 42 years of his life….

I was really, really slow. I used to look at an attractive woman and think, “Men would really like her.” It took me years to realize I was funneling my own attraction through imaginary men.

Not that I had a name for it, but when I was 3 or 4, I had such a strong attraction to a cousin who was a year older, I would ask him to take off his shirt anytime we were alone together. It only happened a couple of times, after the first of which he wasn't interested.

[quote]When you say a number, do you mean 2 or 20?

R36, I’m in my 50s, so at least 6 I can think of off the top of my head, but there may be some I’ve forgotten about.

[quote][R32] Kelly McGillis and Meredith Baxter are lesbians, not bisexuals. Kelly dated women in the 80s, but after she was raped, she thought god is punishing her for being with women. So she started dating men.

Well, I was wrong about them being no, but some people come out late in life but I still think they both knew earlier. You don’t wake up at 60 and think “oh! I’m gay now!”

Even though the numbers of those that are saying they came out at 25 and 30 or posted that it didn’t happen until later, as small as they are, surprise me.

[quote]Amber Heard always identified as Bisexual.

I just remember big headlines like this.

“Amber Heard, ‘Pineapple Express’ Actress, Comes Out as Lesbian”

R43 Proving that women discover it a lot later than men do

R47 She never came out as a lesbian when she was given that GLAAD award. Or mentioned the word lesbian. I remember an interview about her coming out to her parents with "I'm an outspoken lesbian, atheist, vegetarian" but many bi women call themselves gay when they are dating women. Kirsten Stewart, Angel Olsen..

Angel Olsen has been such a disappointment to me in that regard. Her first female love affair was (still is?) with someone who doesn’t identify as a woman. According to trans ideology that’s not a gay relationship.

Friend, Rudy knew he was gay at eight, NYC apartment building on fire. Fireman found Rudy, When Rudy wrapped his arms around fireman's neck, he knew he way gay.

[quote] Why do gay men know so early while gay women often know quite late?

The penis is an inescapably visible and accurate indicator of just exactly what turns you on.

So far, 41% knew by the age of seven and 62% knew by the age of eleven.

So much for having to wait until you're 18 to figure it all out. Very few men take that long to know.

So this is very interesting to me and I appreciate all the responses. About 77% of folks recognized they were gay before 13. And 88% before they were 15. And the largest number is actually the group under five years old.

This is by no means a scientific survey. In survey methodology, we would refer to this as a convenience sample because it’s not randomly selected. And I asked a group of people that were conveniently in one place so it’s definitely not representative of the entire population.

And then the other problem is that I didn’t ask people who may have identified as gay as children who grew up to be straight, but will assume that that’s a pretty small number.

So there are my limitations.

But 88% of the respondents here knew they were gay, or knew they were attracted to men or women of the same sex Even if they didn’t know what they meant by 15. And unsurprisingly the largest group were people under five.

So does anybody know why I asked this question? Has anyone figured it out yet?

Feel free to take a guess and then I’ll let you know.

R47 She came out as bisexual in 2010

R50 When she was with her partner, she identified as a woman. I think trans thing came at the end of the relationship. Angel is dating a guy now. But wiki still says she's gay.

[quote] So does anybody know why I asked this question? Has anyone figured it out yet?

No idea! please tell us

[quote] So does anybody know why I asked this question? Has anyone figured it out yet?

You're reviving your Exodus International program, and want to know which age groups to target first.

[quote]You're reviving your Exodus International program, and want to know which age groups to target first.

Nope. My point was that 78.5% of you knew you were gay before you were 13. And 87.4% of you knew before you were 15. And if you told somebody, would you want them telling you “oh no, honey you’re just confused, you’re really straight, this is just a phase you’re going through. We’ll take you to a therapist and get this straightened out”.

Because in most states that’s considered child abuse

But that’s what folks want to do to trans kids. We don’t believe trans kids when they tell us they’re trans even though the majority of gays knew before they were 11.

So how come so many people here are insistent on making kids wait until they’re 18 to get treatment? Knowing that they will go through the wrong puberty and develop features of the sex they insist is not right.

If most of you knew you were gay at such a young age, why don’t you believe trans kids know? Why do you think you know better than they do?

It’s hard to say for sure because I was in denial for a good while. But I suppose deep down I knew by the time I was in my early teens.

I remember having a massive crush on a guy when I was in year 8 at school - I’d have been 12/13 then. I looked him up on Facebook recently. He didn’t age well.

When I was in middle school, I realized that when I raided my father’s magazines, I liked Hustler better than Penthouse because Hustler showed cock.

I remember being about 11 years old and having to walk through the men’s shower at the swimming pool and there was a college aged guy naked showering. And I distinctly remember at 11 thinking “damn look at that ass. I’d hit that in a second”

Apparently I was an 11 year old top.

R59 You should have make the poll decided by men/women. And then a poll about how many people "changed" their sexuality later in life. From straight to gay, from gay to bi, from bi to gay, from bi to straight etc. Especially women. Cause you say that those trans kids know that they are trans, but how many straight teen and preteen girls are calling themselves bi, cause it is cool to be part of the community? How many bi teen and preteen girls are calling themselves lesbians? How any straight kids are calling themselves queer, cause they want to be special? It's becoming a trend even among young boys nowadays. The difference between this and trans stuff is that these kids don't change their bodies, drastically change their bodies. Something that can't be reversed if one day they decide they want to switch back to the original bodies. Trans kids do

*devided

**divided

R63 Only if people were honest. I know it’s not PC, but this site is for plain speaking and I just don’t buy it when people come out later in life. They knew deep down, they just didn’t feel able to come out: especially if they decided to marry someone of the opposite sex in an effort to ‘change’ or be straight.

R63, you can post that poll if you want to. There aren’t enough spaces in the poll section to add all those options though, so good luck. I didn’t see anybody comment that they thought they were gay and then decided they were straight and I did post that as a limitation at r54.

Exactly r66. Few gays go back to straight without some major religious awakening (and then usually they’re gay again in a few years) so I don’t know why people would assume a trans person would. And the research on detransitioners has shown that the numbers are low (1-2%) and that most don’t detransition because they don’t think they’re trans, they detransition because they get harassed for being trans and it makes them even more depressed.

R68 Yeah. I’ve never thought I was the opposite sex, so I’m not gonna tell a trans person how they feel. If they think they are, then fair enough. It’s not like I’m obligated to do anything about it.

I was six. Marc Bolan was singing “Metal Guru” on Top Of The Pops. I was electrified. He was the most gorgeous thing I’d ever seen. I knew immediately that I couldn’t tell anyone.

[quote]But that’s what folks want to do to trans kids. We don’t believe trans kids when they tell us they’re trans even though the majority of gays knew before they were 11.

Apples and oranges.

Comparing sexual attraction to sexual stereotypes.

Acceptance to non-acceptance.

Doesn't really work.

R66 For some people sexuality is fluid. There are numerous cases of "straight" women who were only attracted to men, then one woman comes along and they fall for her even though they aren't attracted to other women. And if they break up with that women they continue dating men and don't look at women in that way. Cassandra Peterson said she never thought about women that way untill she fallen for her, now wife. Same with Kate Pierson, who said that even though she was surrounded by gay people all her life, only started having the attraction for women later in life.

Then there are bisexuals, who go through cycles of being almost exclusively attracted to one sex, then the other. Bi-cycle is even a term for that.

R68 "Few gays go back to straight so I don’t know why people would assume a trans person would"

Why are you comparing sexuality to gender identity?

I was age 9 when I realized that I had a crush on two boys in my classroom. I did not know what sex was, but know I wanted to be with them as much as possible -- even possibly live with them for the rest of my life.

I also realized that I wanted my female classmates to stop flirting with me. I grew up in Texas, many 4th grade girls were already masters at hair and makeup.

[quote]Why are you comparing sexuality to gender identity?

Why do gays blame trans for conservatives hating gays?

We’re all sexual minorities. I was comparing children’s decision making abilities.

R75 I'm not blaming anyone. Just pointing out that those two things aren't the same, so why compare it?

R75 Are you also for children being prosecuted as adults?

[quote]I'm not blaming anyone. Just pointing out that those two things aren't the same, so why compare it?

They’re both about their awareness of their identity. They are very comparable.

[quote][R75] Are you also for children being prosecuted as adults?

No. Are you opposed to kids picking out what they eat for lunch or what they wear to school?

Those are apples and oranges.

R79 So are sexuality and gender identity. You didn't need puberty blockers and drastic cosmetic surgeries if you discover that you are gay. You are comparing picking out what to eat or what to wear to gender-affirming surgeries? And then say that I am making comparison between apples and oranges.

I still think that there is something deeply disturbing about declaring a child trans and putting him on hormones. Even if I had “known” that I was gay when I was 10 and told my parents, I seriously doubt that my mother would have invited the next door neighbor boy to come over and sit on my face.

Leave this shit alone until the child is of legal age. If at 18 he still wants to turn his cock into mangled baloney, that’s his choice.

40.

The as yet untransitioned Bruce Jenner spoke very movingly about even when personifying the ideal of male athleticism, he was always aware of his female self, and the inner turmoil that produced.

Then, anticipating his transition to Katlyn, he dreamt of the day that she could wear nail polish for long enough that it would flake off.

I knew I was different and not like other boys as early as 5 or 6.

But it was right around age 12 when I understood that I liked men, and dongs....theirs, and mine.

[quote]But that’s what folks want to do to trans kids. We don’t believe trans kids when they tell us they’re trans even though the majority of gays knew before they were 11.

False equivalence.

To paraphrase Spock when Dr. McCoy asked him what it's like to be dead, "you lack the appropriate frame of reference."

Being sexually attracted to another dude is something you can objectively know. You cannot ever "know" what it's like to be a woman or man if you aren't one. What you have are the same social "constructs" which are used to argue that gender doesn't exist to argue that you should be a man or a woman.

I'm not going to argue whether people are or are not T. I am going to argue the lack of internal consistency in any argument about any topic whether I agree with the premise or not.

R59 I think most of us as children would have been pushed to trans. I hated dresses, dolls but loved to use my dad's tools-hammer stuff and dig holes in the yard...I'm a strong, proud femme lesbian today. Finally, truly happy with myself and that happened at age 30. Fuck off with your bs. Being gay doesn't require harmful medicines.

[quote][R59] I think most of us as children would have been pushed to trans. I hated dresses, dolls but loved to use my dad's tools-hammer stuff and dig holes in the yard...I'm a strong, proud femme lesbian today.

R96, would you have blindly gone along with it, or would you object and say “no, I’m a girl”? Saying most of us would have been “pushed to trans” is one of the dumbest things I’ve ever heard.

1.. Because if kids recognize they are gay, maybe they’re aware enough to realize that they aren’t trans

2. You’ make your parents sound like they idiots who would spend a fortune on medical care to “trans” you against your will. Parents aren’t doing that.

3. Having idiot parents makes you sound like an idiot too, because the idiot apple doesn’t fall far from the idiot tree.

[quote]Being sexually attracted to another dude is something you can objectively know. You cannot ever "know" what it's like to be a woman or man if you aren't one.

You can’t say a tans child doesn’t objectively know they aren’t trans though. When you were a child did it take you to adulthood to realize you weren’t trans? And if you can never objectively know, how do you know you aren’t trans now as an adult?

19.

R88 Can you tell me what it means to "feel like a man" or "feel like a woman"?

I felt pretty sure when I was 13, but it was only in hindsight, after I became an adult, that I could look back and validate that my belief was correct. However, being a kid at the time, I know I could have been convinced it was something different if someone wanted to diagnose me and walk me through why it was so.

[quote]You are comparing picking out what to eat or what to wear to gender-affirming surgeries? And then say that I am making comparison between apples and oranges.

No. I was saying that comparing tying kids as adults for crimes to being trans was apples and oranges, r80.

Always knew there was something different about me, always. I didn't get along with the other boys, all my friends were girls, would rather draw, read, and watch movies than play sports. And while I loved playing doctor with the boys next door, it was only their bodies I was interested in. I had many crushes on girls throughout elementary school and into high school. There were so many girls and women I found beautiful and interesting, in my own life and in the public sphere. I wanted to be around the women, had no interested in spending time with men or boys at all. Very confusing to me, having one gender I was physically attracted to and another I was emotionally attracted to. I figured with puberty the physical attraction to women would come, but it definitely pushed the needle in the opposite direction. Took me a few years to sort it all out and realize what it meant and that it wasn't a phase. I wasn't waiting for the right woman to come along to attract me physically, I was waiting for the right man to attract me mentally. Once I had that realization, it all fell into place rather swiftly. I came out to myself at 19 and to friends and family not long after.

R92 But why? You say that children are developed enough to make such decisions as getting their breasts removed, taking puberty blockers, have gender-affirming surgeries... So why not prosecute them as adults? They are old enough to know that rape, murder etc are wrong, no?

You also said that gays don't change their sexuality so why would the kids regret puberty blockers or drastic surgeries later in life? Ever heard of lug (lesbians until graduation) or hasbians? The difference those people can just start dating the opposite sex. The trans people can't go back to what they once were

[quote]1.. Because if kids recognize they are gay, maybe they’re aware enough to realize that they aren’t trans

r87 Schizophrenic kids recognize the voices and believe them to be as real as you if you're speaking to them. However, it would be irresponsible to "affirm" their delusions and tell the patient that the voices are real and not a hallucination.

Gender dysphoria is a mental disorder that causes someone to believe they are something they objectively are not (the opposite sex). Sexual orientation is who someone is and is an objective truth that requires zero medical intervention to live freely. The two are not the same. You are saying that a mental illness is the same thing as being gay or lesbian. That's...problematic.

R95 To add to that, one way to identify bullshit is when it can’t clearly be explained. What is a gay man? A man who likes men. Very easy concept. What does it mean to be transgender or nonbinary? Well, it means whatever you want it to, of course, because there’s no right way to be transgender or nonbinary. You can have surgery or just put on a dress. Or you can be male, female, both, neither, or all at the same time. THAT is how you know it’s bullshit.

Standard gender behavior is a totally manmade concept and has no physiological or scientific fact to back it up. If a child is born into this word and their soul resonates with what society defines as "male" or "female" then it should be nobody's right to tell them to go against what feels authentic and comfortable to them. We are beholden to no one but ourselves, and to bully others and pass laws that prevent them from living freely is unconscionable. Doesn't mean to put them on hormones at age 5, but if they're raised in a supportive environment and allowed to experiment with different personas, chances are that by 15 they will be well suited to make that decision for themselves. And, if they have the financial resources and mental wherewithal, they can always change their mind. People perform such complicated mental gymnastics to explain why it's wrong, but it never makes as much sense as letting individuals decide what's right for themselves. Mind your own damn business.

At 13, I was well aware of how my male peers felt about girls. I felt nothing, but thought I was just a late bloomer. That summer, at the beach, I realized I really liked looking at mens bodies. I knew instantly.

To this day I don't know how people make it through puberty without knowing.

R98

[quote]To this day I don't know how people make it through puberty without knowing.

It’s quite simple actually. If you grow up in a fundamentalist/religious nut household where being gay is wrong, your mind does everything it can to suppress it.

R97 You are talking about scientific facts. But then I the best sentence mention soul.

[quote]Gender dysphoria is a mental disorder that causes someone to believe they are something they objectively are not (the opposite sex). Sexual orientation is who someone is and is an objective truth that requires zero medical intervention to live freely. The two are not the same. You are saying that a mental illness is the same thing as being gay or lesbian. That's...problematic

.You need to educate yourself. The American Psychiatric Association did away with the term “gender identity disorder” in favor of “gender dysphoria” in the DSM.-V in 2012. But even before then, the treatment for gender identity disorder wasn’t to convince someone they were not transgender, it was to support them through the transition process.

Being transgender is not a mental illness anymore than being gay is a mental illness. What is physically going on in your body that makes you gay? Tell me that. Tell me it is not something in your brain. Tell me that it’s not a mental disorder, but being transgender is. Explain the difference to me.

Just because being gay doesn’t require medical care, doesn’t mean because trans people do equals trans is a disease. Not every trans person needs meditations to transition. And the medication’s to take her the same ones that straight people take. Just like not ever gay man that doesn’t have HIV meeting PrEP. Some straight people take it, but the majority of people that take that are gay men. And there’s more than one gay person in therapy if you didn’t notice. A lot of people struggle with their sexuality. And they may need help psychological help for it.

Your hatred of trans people, and spreading misinformation is every bit as stupid and dangerous as the COVID anti-vaxxers.

And yes, there is more than one type of transgender, but guess what, there’s more than one type of being gay too. Some gay men are monogamous, some are polyamorous, some are asexual, or have a low sex drive. Some like hanging out in gay bars. Some hate them. Some gay men want children. Some gay men don’t. Some gay men will only perform oral sex. Some gay men will only be tops. Some gay men are only bottoms. And whether you like it, or not, some men identify as gay and do have sex with women.

So if you think there’s only one way to be gay, think again.

I'm still waiting for an answer to what it means for a child to "feel like a woman/girl" or "feel like a man/boy" and why these feelings ought to be addressed with medical procedures.

R101 The American medical establishment deemed homosexuality an illness for decades. An illness that could be "cured" through mental and physical torture. The American medical establishment has been wrong in the past and it will be wrong in the future (and the present). We now have national medical societies across Scandinavia collectively and openly abandoning the "gender affirmation" model in favor of a hollistic, therapy-focused approach.

How can you reconcile giving children hormonal and surgical sex change interventions to treat gender dysphoria when we know from years of research that over 80% of them will outgrow their dysphoria if they go through their normal puberty and will likely develop into gay, lesbian and bisexual adults? How can you justify the Tavistock kids being given sex change interventions when over 90% of them had autism and depression?

By your own admission (R54) you started this thread in order to bait gay people into sharing intimate stories about our childhoods just so you could have your precious "ta-dah!" revelation. You call yourself an epidemiologist, but it is clear that you are first and foremost an online activist troll.

R9 is David gay?

[quote]By your own admission ([R54]) you started this thread in order to bait gay people into sharing intimate stories about our childhoods just so you could have your precious "ta-dah!" revelation. You call yourself an epidemiologist, but it is clear that you are first and foremost an online activist troll.

Bullshit. I posted a poll, and never even asked people to post stories. I didn’t even post my own story here first, I only asked for numbers. I didn’t bait anyone into anything.

And I don’t just call myself an epidemiologist. I AM an epidemiologist. I collected data to demonstrate to everyone here that they knew that they were gay as children. And then I let them know if they knew they were gay as children, trans kids could know they’re trans as children. So don’t go fucking accusing me of being an activist when you’re an anti-trans activist. I’m a scientist. I have evidence on my side. You have a couple of recommendations from some Scandinavian countries. And Reddit comments. So fuck off back to TERFland or wherever the hell you came from. Go be an accountant or do whatever the fuck you do.

R104 Are you calling your own words bullshit now?

"So does anybody know why I asked this question? Has anyone figured it out yet? Feel free to take a guess and then I’ll let you know." this was you at R54

and this was you at R59:

"My point was that 78.5% of you knew you were gay before you were 13. And 87.4% of you knew before you were 15. And if you told somebody, would you want them telling you “oh no, honey you’re just confused, you’re really straight, this is just a phase you’re going through. We’ll take you to a therapist and get this straightened out”.

Because in most states that’s considered child abuse

But that’s what folks want to do to trans kids. We don’t believe trans kids when they tell us they’re trans even though the majority of gays knew before they were 11."

You posted this thread behind a veneer of innocent curiosity and then pulled the rug out from under everybody's feet when you revealed your true intensions. You are a shit-stirring activist troll with antisocial tendencies, plain and simple.

R105, people don’t believe the science when we link to peer reviewed journal articles. So I demonstrated it to them with data they provided themselves that they knew they were gay well before they were 18. I hope at least some people understand now that if they were confident they were gay at five, some five year old saying they are trans is equally confident.

And I’m not antisocial. I’m very social. Sorry to disappoint you. I’m also not an activist. I just don’t like misinformation. So when you repeat lies, I’m gonna call you out on them.

Deal with it.

R102 keep waiting! No one owes you that answer. It's about what feels natural and comfortable to the individual.

Thought tv boys were cute: 5

Had a same-sex crush: 7

Knew I was different: 13

First time I was called a fag/faggot/queer: 14-ish

First time I was aware of a guy creeping on me: 16

First time I was in love with a guy: 17

Last crush on a very cute girl: also 17

First time I told someone I was gay: 18 and one day (1975)

Length of blur until I met my husband: 15 years

Now, at 66, I feel I have run the gamut of gay life. Ppl

[quote] At 13, I was well aware of how my male peers felt about girls. I felt nothing, but thought I was just a late bloomer.

Same, except that I thought everyone was faking it - like me - because that's what you're supposed to do. No one really wants to fuck pussy, it's all just for show.

Then one afternoon I saw wildebeests mating on tv, and the male looked really into it. I thought, hmm is it possible that's real for humans as well? Nova, or whatever, thank you for showing me the light.

R108 If you met your husband in 1990, you were a pioneer. Good on ya.

R106 "The science"

Unless "the science" coming from countries like Sweden, Finland, Norway, the UK, and France upsets your trollish, mentally ill, America First ass of course.

You know OP is a troll, right?

It’s not really gay, actually indifferent. I learned I was different because I was indifferent or at worst sex-repulsed. Meant not having crushes or really that urge to play the field. I’d say I’m a slightly bisexual gray ace. And that’s ok.

R113 Closet incel perhaps.

I always had puppy love feelings for other boys at school, and while I think I was subconsciously aware that this wasn't the norm, it didn't fully click for me until I'd gone through puberty. I thought that those feelings were something I'd eventually grow out of. When I was around 14, my older stepbrother gave me one of his porn magazines and I remember looking through it one night in my bedroom. It was all straight porn obviously, but in the one of the back pages there was a small advertisement of some sort featuring a hairy-chested man with a big, low-hanging dick. Naturally, I gravitated toward this, and when I found myself jerking off and cumming to it, I had the final "eureka" moment: I liked guys, and guys only. I remember feeling a slight sense of panic in the moment, and thought to myself, "Fuck--I am completely gay. How is this going to work out?" There were some bumps along the road, but it worked out fine.

[quote] I'm still waiting for an answer to what it means for a child to "feel like a woman/girl" or "feel like a man/boy" and why these feelings ought to be addressed with medical procedures.

You gave me such a softball question that I decided to write you a book. Given the attention span of so many posters here, I am fully expecting some snide comments and… I don’t care 😂. I doubt you’ve ever read a book in your life so I’m not expecting you to start now. Just scroll by!

[bold]Chapter 1[/bold]

I can’t tell you what it means to "feel like a woman/girl” because I am a cisgender man. I can tell you what it means TO ME to "feel like a man/boy". And if you’re a man, you can tell me what it feels like to you, and if we compared our answers, I’d bet they weren’t the same. As a matter of fact, I bet we could ask 100 men what it feels like to be a man and we’d probably get close to 100 different answers. And if we asked 100 women what it feels like to be a woman we’d get 100 different answers as well.

But I know that a transgender girl could tell you what it feels like to be a TRANSGENDER girl and that she probably can’t tell you what it feels like to be a boy, because she never felt like a boy. And the same thing goes for transgender boys.

So what’s the point of your question? Did you want me to tell you that all boys and girls instinctively and only can feel like a boy or a girl? If that were true, what would you say to a girl who said she knew what a girl was supposed to feel like but she didn’t feel like one? That would contradict your belief that a kid can’t know that they are something other than the gender they were assigned at birth. Or are you denying that a girl couldn’t feel like a girl at all? Because that’s pretty well documented. There are lots of boys and girls who don’t feel like boys and girls.

[bold]End of chapter 1[bold]

[bold]Chapter 3[/bold]

I specifically brought up the short kids and kids with hypogonadism because I want you to realize that 1) not every kid that takes hormones need them to survive, they do take them for appearances sake, and 2) there are kids that do need them for medical reasons instead of transitioning and they have been taking them from a very early age into adulthood and if there was a safety issue, we would know.

And if you want to talk about detransitioners, we can. Estimates are that less than 1% express regret, and 1 to 2% of transgender people detransition, and even when someone detransitions, for many of them it’s temporary and they re-transition. People detransition for a variety of reasons that are either voluntary or coerced. Among the voluntary, many of them express no regret over transitioning in the first place and some of them will re-transition. Some will just temporary halt their transition before resuming it. Some trans people have bad surgical or medical outcomes, or outcomes that didn’t meet their expectations, and they are more likely to express regret, but this is a very, very small number of people. And even among them, some will re-transition because they still identify as transgender, they just weren’t happy with their results. That could happen to anyone who gets a bad plastic surgery job that can be hard or impossible to correct (and posters here LOVE stories like that because we’re all some cruel bitches, so you can’t use that as an excuse to deny anyone the opportunity to transition, because you love, making fun of people for it). The involuntary or coerced generally have no regret and are likely to re-transition. These are folks that need to return home where they’re not accepted as transgender, people that can’t find a job because they are transgender, people that have become the target of harassment or attack and need to detransition for safety, and not infrequently because they are incarcerated and have no access to care or are placed in a facility that doesn’t match there current gender. When people get out of those situations, they are more likely to resume their transition. But among all detransitioners, detransitioning because of regret is low and and for some regret is only temporary. This information I’m not citing for you. You can find it in a meta-analysis done by the Dutch that does include US studies and participants and the biggest survey on transgender people in the world is the US Transgender Survey that was facilitated by UCLA and a number of organizations. The last survey was conducted in 2022 and the data will be out this year. The last one was a 300 page report, so it’s quite complete. Google it if you want.

[bold]End of chapter 3[/bold]

[bold]Chapter 2[/bold]

So let’s talk about your medical question. Why do we give puberty blockers to young people and not wait until they’re 18? Because by 18 puberty is over and it’s too late, it would do nothing. Girls and boys finish puberty between 14 and 16. All the folks suggesting giving puberty blockers to 18 year olds make as much sense as suggesting birth control for 90 year old women.

And nobody is giving five year olds puberty blockers unless they have precocious puberty and they don’t have to be trans to have that. And five and 10 year olds don’t start taking hormones unless they have something like hypogonadism. Puberty blockers are intended to delay puberty to give young people an opportunity to take the time and make sure that they are insistent, consistent, and most importantly, persistent in saying that they are not the gender that they were born as. They wanna make sure that if a kid says they’re trans one day that they continue to say it and they do not hesitate. And when they and their doctors feel that they are confident, then they may or may not start cross hormone therapy. And they want to do that before puberty starts so that trans girls don’t grow 6 feet tall, develop adam’s apples, broad shoulders, and grow beards. And that trans boys don’t develop wide hips, breasts and so they can grow taller. It allows them to go through the puberty of the gender that they insist they are. And it makes them look like the gender they insist they are. Denying them that could be seen as unethical. It would force them into an adult body that they are not comfortable with and easily recognized as transgender and a target for people who want to humiliate or hurt transgender people. And the recommendations for surgery are for 18 year olds and older unless their dysphoria is so severe that they risk harming themselves. Performing surgery on under 18 year olds is not common and it’s definitely not done on five year olds. 🤣 I don’t know why people keep insisting on things like that.

But you know who else doctors treat with hormones and surgery? Particularly short kids. They treat them with growth hormones so that they can grow taller. And they can only be given to kids before they’re out of their teens because that’s when kids are growing and it doesn’t work in adults. And another option in addition to growth hormones involves surgery for distraction osteogenesis. They saw your leg bones in half and then slowly crank them apart while new bone grows in between them to make you taller. Sound like fun? Would it be fair to deny a really short kid an opportunity to grow taller knowing that the only window for treatment is when they’re a kid? Would you tell them, tough luck kid? You were born short, sucks to be you. There are things that we can do to help you, but everybody knows short people can’t become tall. It’s basic biology.

And did you know that some young non trans boys have male hypogonadism and need to take testosterone as children? They can either have congenital or acquired hypogonadism, but their body doesn’t produce enough testosterone for them to grow properly. And generally they have to take it for life. And in kids it’s kind of freaky because their arms and legs will continue to grow at a normal rate, but their torso will stay small. Imagine looking like an avocado with toothpicks sticking out of it hanging in a glass of water on a windowsill. I’m hoping you’re OK with giving testosterone to children so they don’t look like avocados. But I don’t know you. And low natural levels of testosterone can also be linked to heart disease and infertility and a host of other problems. So it is medically necessary for some boys. And I don’t think you would deny them that.

But for short kids and trans kids, do you know why they do these things? So the kids don’t hate themselves. So they can grow and transition as smoothly as possible so that that they’re not bullied, attacked, humiliated, ostracized, and want to hurt or possibly kill themselves.

[bold]End of chapter 2[/bold]

[bold]Chapter 4[/bold]

I don’t think you understand how fluid gender and sexuality are. I have a friend that is a trans man who is married to another trans man. If neither of them had transitioned, they would be married lesbians, but now they’re married gay men. And they are married gay men because they both realized THEY ARE MEN. I don’t know about my friend’s husband, but my friend never dated a woman. He never thought he was a lesbian. I’m not even sure if he ever dated or had sex with a cisgender man either before or after he transitioned. I don’t ask him about his life as a girl. We only talk about his life before he transitioned if we’re talking about school, TV shows we watched as kids, video games or the million other things that people talk about besides their gender. I don’t even know his birth name and I would never ask and I know his middle name. Honestly, I never even think of him as a trans man until someone either unintentionally or intentionally misgenders him. And then it actually pisses me off more than it pisses him off. Apparently he’s just used to it and doesn’t take offense to it whereas I don’t like seeing my friends get made fun of. He’s just a guy that is my friend.

You don’t know a lot about transgender research other than the negative things that are being fed to you. I didn’t have to look up anything to write this, took me about 10 minutes to write. I’m not trying to be mean. Well, maybe a little bit. I am kind of a bitch. But I’m a smarter bitch than you are. I know the research better than you do. I know the flaws of the research better than you do. I know the community better than you do. There’s nothing you can say to me other than “oh, dear“ if I made a typo. I don’t understand where this hatred comes from, but it’s not in the best interest of children. You’re the Anita Bryant for trans people. And as a gay person, it’s pretty shameful.

And that goes for all of you. If you’re a Drop the T gay, if you repeat talking points from conservative media that were prepared by a right wing think tank and used by legislatures across the country to craft almost identical bills to ban gender affirming care for kids, you are complicit in their suffering. You’ll probably never realize it, but you are not on the wrong side of history because you will not be remembered in our history. You are on the wrong side of humanity. And you will not be remembered with respect for that. If you’re remembered at all.

So I hope I answered all your questions. I’m sure you’ll come back with a very long rebuttal. I’ll be happy to address any additional questions or questionable points you have.

Have a good weekend! 🤗

[bold]The End[/bold]

I’m glad I posted chapter numbers, because it was too long for one post, and I did post them in order, but DL decided to put chapter 3 ahead of chapter 2.

[quote]If neither of them had transitioned, they would be married lesbians, but now they’re married gay men. And they are married gay men because they both realized THEY ARE MEN.

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

R121, ma’am, I don’t know what you think is so funny

[quote]But I know that a transgender girl could tell you what it feels like to be a TRANSGENDER girl and that she probably can’t tell you what it feels like to be a boy, because she never felt like a boy. And the same thing goes for transgender boys.

Jesus Christ.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS FEELING LIKE A MAN OR WOMAN.

Let me break the news to our resident epidemiologist/activist troll: there is no such thing as "feeling like a man" or "feeling like a woman". The fact that in your little thought experiment you would get hundreds of different responses should show you that this is something entirely immaterial. If, however, you were to ask people questions like "why are you a man?/why are you not a woman?" or "why are you a woman?/why are you not a man?", you can be certain that the overwhelming majority of the world will you give you answers that are rooted in the material world: "Because of how I was born", "I have x/y/z sex organs", etc. A man is a man regardless of his personality or interests or how society treats him, and likewise for a woman. This is at the very core of gay liberation, but I doubt you are familiar with this concept.

It's so fascinating how such a simple question elicited a 4-part screed. You can keep your head in the sand while gay and autistic kids in the US are given sex changes, but the world is moving on. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

In utero

R124, wow, I didn’t realize I was dealing with a legit crazy person.

You were the one who kept asking what it means to feel like a man or feel like a woman. First, you posted this

[quote][R88] Can you tell me what it means to "feel like a man" or "feel like a woman"?

Then when I didn’t respond quick enough for you, you posted this

[quote]I'm still waiting for an answer to what it means for a child to "feel like a woman/girl" or "feel like a man/boy" and why these feelings ought to be addressed with medical procedures.

Then, when I gave you an answer that there isn’t one way to feel like a man or a feel like a woman, you come back and screech at me

[quote]Let me break the news to our resident epidemiologist/activist troll: there is no such thing as "feeling like a man" or "feeling like a woman"

Uh, yeah. That’s what I told you.

You brought up the question. Twice I gave you the answer, and you told me I was wrong, and then told me that the correct answer to the question was what I had already told you.

I can’t carry on a conversation with you anymore. Not if you’re gonna keep asking me the same question, I give you an answer, and then you tell me that my answer is the same as your answer and I’m wrong. That makes no sense whatsoever.

And I answered your question about medical procedures, and you don’t even have a response to that.

What a waste of 10 minutes.

This thread, TLDR.

Oh, one final thing, your link at R111 comes from a conservative online magazine and it’s so full of errors that I had a good laugh it actually has links to such reputable sources as the New York Post. And I quickly read one of the articles cited and it completely contradicts their whole argument.

The article says “Systematic reviews represent the highest level of evidence analysis in evidence based medicine.”

That is so laughably not true! I don’t even think you have to be a scientist to know that a randomized controlled trial is the highest level of evidence in evidence-based medicine. A systematic review or a meta-analysis of various observational studies is not even close to a single clinical trial in terms of quality of evidence.

Finland based their program on the Dutch model, and then realized that their population of patients was different than the Dutch population, because they didn’t follow the dutch protocol. Of course, there program failed. They based it on a program that was successful, and then didn’t follow the protocol.

That’s like baking a cake and using sand instead of sugar and then complaining that the cake was terrible because of the recipe.

Towards the end of the article, they actually say something truthful. Correlation does not equal causation. But then they say that the high number of young women with mental health issues (that were explicitly excluded in the Dutch protocol that they didn’t bother to follow) contributed to the higher numbers of young women seeking care. They’re saying their mental illness *caused* them to think that they are transgender. They also say that using a transgender young person’s chosen name and pronouns reinforces their belief that they are trans. Again, “using their name and pronouns CAUSES them to further believe that they are trans. There is absolutely no evidence for that. They didn’t even bother with a citation because they wouldn’t find one. But then they acknowledge the correlation causation fallacy to dispute claims that not providing gender, affirming care can lead to suicide and complain, that activists are using that information inappropriately because it’s an association, not a causal relationship. If they had stopped there, that would’ve been something I could almost agree with. But then they went on to say that being depressed and suicidal may lead to someone incorrectly identifying themselves as trans. So they acknowledge correlation, doesn’t equal causation, and yet three times in the article they argued that an association can be a cause for having a trans identity. They say 1) mental health issues can make someone think they’re trans, 2) that using someone’s chosen name and pronouns can reinforce their mistaken identify as trans, and 3) then they turn the argument that providing puberty blockers is associated with reduced suicidality into a ridiculous conclusion that suicidality can lead to someone thinking they are trans.

There’s so many other problems in that article that I don’t even wanna go into. It would take me at least another 10 minutes and I don’t wanna waste that much time on you.

If kids get put on puberty blockers how exactly are they supposed to find out if they like being their bio sex? If you go through puberty you're forced to accept reality. Puberty blockers keep one in a suspended state of childhood so the fantasies of being the opposite sex can continue. When I watched that I Am Jazz show all I could think of was how it resembled my childhood. The only difference was that I didn't have doctors around me eager to treat me and a munchausen by proxy stage mom. I had no idea what a sex change was. When I did find out I could see it was just a cheap imitation of the real thing. My dysphoria faded after I went through puberty as I realized it wasn't physically possible to become the opposite sex. If I'd had society telling me from a young age that I could change my sex I could definitely see myself getting sucked into that. It's tempting for a young gay boy to think maybe he can become a straight woman and snag some hot straight guys and be socially accepted. How do we tell the real trans like Christine Jorgensen from future detrans like Keira Bell?

[quote]If kids get put on puberty blockers how exactly are they supposed to find out if they like being their bio sex? If you go through puberty you're forced to accept reality. Puberty blockers keep one in a suspended state of childhood so the fantasies of being the opposite sex can continue.

There is no evidence, one way or another that puberty blockers delay cognitive development.

r130 I meant physical development.

I knew I thought guys were hot when I was about 5 but during think of having sex until I was around12

R110 and we’re the only couple in my family of 10 siblings to never get divorce out of the eight of os who married.

I like how I put my account and because it doesn’t fit an asshole R114 ‘s it gets dismissed. Happy pride to you. Enjoy your privilege.

Our friends from the more progressive countries in Scandinavia and the UK are rethinking aggressive treatment for gender dysphoria in children. A 4000% increase in F2M in juveniles is something that SHOULD be questioned. That doesn't mean that gender dysphoria or transexuals doesn't exist, but I do believe it is over diagnosed and over treated. So is ADHD, but there is probably less potential harm in treating ADHD.

[quote] Enjoy your privilege.

Excellent advice.

I've already explained this in the thread below.

So layered. I knew I was different byb five. By seven, I think I was cluing into the guy angle but didn't get it (I didn't know what sex was.) By eleven, I was on the verge of getting the whole picture. There was so much garbge, I couldn't call myself gay until my thirties. Long story, but given where I am now, the long, slow walk was worth it.