Was Dorothy Loudon an all time great?

After listening to 30 seconds of that, I can see why she had almost no film or TV credits to her name.

She reminds me of Dolores Claiborne.

Her version of Sweeney Todd is on youtube.

Dorothy had the well of talent of an all-time great, but lacked the self-discipline (or director) needed to harness it dependably. She accomplished some amazing things in her career (Annie, Ballroom, Lolita My Love, Sweeney Todd to name a few) but never reached her potential. Makes her something of a demigod in the Pantheon of Broadway greats, in my book.

She seemed like a tough cookie. Not a very warm presence.

She was no Edna Garrett.

Oh, I think her “Fifty Percent” has great warmth. I remember seeing her in “Jerry”s Girls,” in which in Act II, she uncharacteristically did a muted but deeply touching “Time Heals Everything” in a classic black cocktail dress. I think her husband had died the year and the performance seemed to come from a genuine place of contained loss and grief.

Fifty Percent is a great song and you need her brassiness to carry it off. I think I read somewhere that she always considered herself a saloon singer — if anyone remembers what that term means.

I love her performance here at the Sondheim tribute. A great arrangement of two wonderful songs.

I would've liked to see her play Rose. Too bad she wasn't a replacement for Tyne Daly during her run.

Just watched that in its entirety and I marvel at her complete stage mastery — she had the audience eating out of her hand.

Was so fortunate to see her in ANNIE, NOISES OFF, BALLROOM, THE WOMEN revival, and even the Boston tryout of LOLITA, MY LOVE and.....get ready for it....The Mineola Playhouse production of THE APPLE TREE! Oh, and also a reading of THE RINK at Manhattan Theatre Club around 1994.

She was a star in my book.

Loved her in Ballroom. And I think the director (was it Michael Bennett?) was able to reign her in. She gave a beautiful performance, and sang the hell outta Fifty Percent.

It's a shame Ballroom came out the same time as Sweeney Todd. She would have had her second Tony were it for Angela's superb performance. But her performance of Fifty Percent on the Tony awards let Sondheim to cast her as a replacement, so there was that.

It's interesting that her biggest Broadway success and only foray into TV centered around kids since she apparently hated children in real life.

OP, was she also a partner in business with someone who was murdered?

R13,

No I don't think so. But she reminds me of Dolores Gray in some ways - kind of blowsy, a big voice, had a few hits and a bunch of flops, and weaker career in Hollywood than one might expect.

It probably annoyed her that Carol Burnett got the movie versions of her two biggest stage roles.

In the 60s she worked for a year or two in Vegas singing and playing the piano. At the time she knew around 2000 songs by heart and took requests. She was then on to working for Garry Moore and Candid Camera. She made many appearances on various gameshows, which she enjoyed. Broadway was her thing and she starred in many shows. She didn't hate children, she just didn't have any of her own. She did tell little Andrea McArdle if she moved while she was getting a laugh, she may not see curtain call. She had a potty mouth and was one of the funniest people I've ever met. I miss her.

There were misgiving all way around with Dorothy Loudon doing "Fifty Percent" in Ballroom because of events in the lady's real life.

While a well known secret in Broadway musical theatre circles it may not have been otherwise; Dorothy Loudon had been in a long term romance with a married man; Norman Paris.

Story was the same old common thing of the time; Mrs. Norman Paris wouldn't grant her husband a divorce so things were not easy. When things came to a head the children took sides which made life heck for Mr. Paris and his second wife Ms. Loudon.

Though finally able to marry at last the couple did not enjoy it very long with Mr. Paris dying in 1977 just six years after their marriage.

Michael Bennett cast Loudon as Bea Asher, a widow who becomes romantically involved with a mail carrier she meets at the local dance hall, in Ballroom (1979). Some felt memories would be too fresh for the widow Paris, but things turned out fine.

Obituary in The Guardian was very kind.

Dorothy Loudon didn't do much television or film. She did land a sitcom "Dorothy" on CBS back in 1979. It lasted just four episodes.

More:

I don't iron his shirts I don't sew on his buttons I don't know all the jokes he tells Or the songs he hums Though I may hold him all through the night He may not be here when the morning comes

I don't pick out his ties Or expect his tomorrows But I feel when he's in my arms He's where he wants to be

We have no memories Bittersweet with time And I doubt if he'll spend New Year's Eve with me

I don't share his name I don't wear his ring There's no piece of paper saying that he's mine But he says he loves me, and I believe it's true Doesn't that make someone belong to you

So I don't share his name So I don't wear his ring So there's no piece of paper saying that he's mine So we have don't have the memories I have enough memories I've watched enough mornings I've cried enough evenings I've had enough birthdays to know what I want

Like there's anyone's guess It's a constant surprise Though you don't plan to fall in love When you fall you fall

I'd rather have fifty percent of him Or any percent of him Than all of anybody else at all

I wonder why she wasn’t considered for replacing Tyne in Gypsy. I still marvel that it was Linda Lavin.

There were a ton of actresses in their 40s + at that time that coveted Rose and said so in the press.

Other choices could have been:

Dorothy Loudon

Lainie Kazan

Betty Buckley

Patti LuPone

Elaine Stritch

Bea Arthur

Georgia Brown

Even Hollywood stars

Carol Burnett

Shirley MacLaine

Liza

And yet it was Linda lavin

The Guardian obituary lists her age at time of death as 70, while wikipedia says she was 78.

Dorothy Loudon was born in 1925, but at some point in her life she shaved off 8 years.

The Guardian has Ms. Loudon's birthdate as one she created: September 17 1933. Her Wiki entry has correct date.

This discrepancy about age come up quite often with actors of all sorts born in early part of prior century, say prior to WWI or maybe WWII.

Broadway World also lists Dorothy Loudon's birth year as 1933.

[quote]I think I read somewhere that she always considered herself a saloon singer

You could say that, r7...

"I think I read somewhere that she always considered herself a saloon singer"

Lord knows Ms. Loudon loved her booze, something that grew bit worse after her husband died. By the 1980's however Dorothy Loudon was able to get herself straight.

Did many of you know when Dorothy Loudon left Annie for Ballroom Alice Ghostley was her replacement?

The gal could dance!

Bea Arthur really, really wanted to do "Mama Rose", but was never offered a chance to do it on Broadway or anywhere else IIRC.

Aren’t we all friends of Dorothy?

Bea Arthur did cover "Fifty Percent" in concerts and elsewhere, but again never on Broadway.

Sort of can see why some producers or others would not chose Bea Arthur as first, second, third or even fourth choice as "Mama Rose". The lady had decent enough instrument (one of her first big roles was as the matchmaker in "Fiddler on The Roof"), but she was more of an actor who "spoke" her way through songs IMHO.

'52 at 27...

You saw LOLITA, MY LOVE, R10? Wow, I’m impressed! Many theater aficionados list this among their favorites of shows that didn’t make it. Loudon sounds wonderful on the recording, her big song sounds like a show-stopper. What are your thoughts?

For R33

For a show that was savaged and didn't make it there's quite a bit out there.

More:

I remember very little about LOLITA, MY LOVE except for Dorothy and how fabulous and just glowing she was in it.

Told this story here and elsewhere many times but I was a college student back then, had a friend of a friend who worked on the wardrobe crew and he invited me backstage after the performance. He introduced me to Dorothy but it was just after an announcement was made that the show would close in Boston and not move on to Broadway. So, while I yakked on about how much I'd adored her ever since the Garry Moore Show, Dorothy held back tears and accepted my sweet blatherings. I can still see her sitting in her dressing room, tears brimming.

Actually, Leonard Frey as Clare Quilty (the Peter Sellers role), was also terrific and very sexy! I didn't get to meet him :(

The late great, if mercurial, director Gerald Gutierrez loved Dorothy and offered her the Queen role in his misbegotten 1996 revival of Once Upon a Mattress with SJP. Dorothy committed to it but pulled out just before rehearsals began because by then, she was suffering terribly from late career stage fright.

Several years later he offered her the Marie Dressler role in his 2002 LCT revival of Dinner at Eight, she agreed to do it and got all the way into the beginning of previews and tragically had to pull out once again. Horrible, debilitating stage fright (which may have been exacerbated by drinking). She died a year later.

Wonderful story, R37 — thank you for sharing!

I’ll share my one LOLITA, MY LOVE-related story (nowhere near as terrific and memorable as yours): Several years ago, I attended an autograph show here in Chicago. One of the performers there was Denise Nickerson of DARK SHADOWS and WILLY WONKA AND THE CHOCOLATE FACTORY fame. All of the photos and memorabilia she had on display was related to those two projects — but I wanted to hear about SMILE and LOLITA, MY LOVE!

About the latter, she told me she was hired in a hurry after the Philadelphia Lolita, Annette Ferra, had been let go. She sang for John Barry and Alan Jay Lerner and they came to the foot of the stage afterward and they told her she was hired.

She told me she was NEVER comfortable in the role, despite her being thrilled to work with the heavy hitters on the project. She said she could see that some parts of the show worked wonderfully, and other parts not at all. She said she was actually relieved when it closed because of her discomfort. Years later, she told me, a fan sent her the bootleg album, and while she could appreciate the wonderful music, it reminded her, she said, that “LOLITA, MY LOVE was the worst experience of my career.” She was very nice, by the way!

What did she say about Smile, r39?

Nickerson told me she enjoyed making SMILE; she said that the girls rehearsed like it was a real pageant. She said she was elected Dance Captain among the girls even though she was not a trained dancer; she assumed that this was because she’d had experience working with choreographers before (including in LOLITA, MY LOVE.)

Nickerson’s character kind of disappeared in the second half of the film; I asked her if there were originally more scenes of her character that were cut from the film — she said there were not.

She also added, “Everyone LOVED Annette O’Toole!”

Oh, we also discussed the fine TV film, “The Neon Ceiling”; she said that Gig Young made disparaging cracks about Lee Grant being a Method actress, and Grant not faking it in the scene where she slaps Nickerson. She told me, “I saw stars for days!”

[quote]“Everyone LOVED Annette O’Toole!”

Because...of course.

Why do famous stage actors sometimes get late career stage fright? You'd think at a certain point they would realize they know how to tweak an audience and will never forget it.

Or is what they fear becoming great hams, the way some older actors so often become: Al Pacino, Robert De Niro... even Meryl Streep has been pretty hammy in recent years.

I think one would worry about their memory at some point, r43.

R25 the one marquee where age does not matter

LINE!

In the collection of Sir John Gielgud's letters he laments that it was not old age but stagefright which finally ended the career of Dame Sybil Thorndike. He was directing her in a role she knew well, yet after going blank on a line in the first or second performance she left the production immediately after the performance.

As a performer myself, I can tell you it is always there, as the act of elaborate make believe strikes me as so odd, but the intensity of being onstage playing a scene is always somewhat surreal, especially the moment before one's first entrance into the play.

I think people just beat it back with steely effort, but for many it never goes away and becomes impossible to confront any longer. I had a case of nerves rapidly overcome me once on a well-known tv show's set and felt like I was having an outer-body experience. I toughed it out after a number of takes where I could barely say the lines aloud, forgetting my own character's name repeatedly when introducing myself. It was humiliating in front of a full set of cast and crew, but we finally had shot enough footage to piece the scene together. It was awful.

Gerald Gutierrez, another great one we lost far too soon.

Obit in NYT:

Here is Dorothy reprising Easy Street on the Tony's in 1986. Nell Carter who flopped in the Miss Hannigan role a decade later and Bea Arthur who talk-sang a poor version of Dorothy's classic Fifty Percent look on admiring Dorothy's immense talent.

No. Carol Burnett was better as Miss Hannigan.

Hardly, r51.

R51. I thought Burnett was awful as Hannigan—no humor, no glint in the eye.

R11, no disrespect to your respectable comments, and it surely was a typo, but since so many DLers lack rudimentary English skills let's mention that it's "rein" as one does with a horse and not "reign" as what Charles III hopes to enjoy.

Otherwise they'll imitate like lorikeets, as they do incessantly, and confuse our language further.

R3 said it all.

Dorothy Loudon and John Neville in LOLITA, MY LOVE. She would seem to have been perfectly cast as Charlotte Haze.