Musician Dee Snider Responds After Being Dropped From San Francisco Pride Celebration

[quote] I was not aware the Transgender community expects fealty and total agreement with all their beliefs and any variation or deviation is considered "transphobic".

If he didn't realize that, let him watch how long this thread lasts before it is sent into oblivion

He’s not wrong!

[quote] I drive a Tesla and a Hummer.

What does that mean? Oh - an electric car and a gas guzzler.

There are trans people at Pride Parades. Why invite someone who attacks them?

[quote] I've recently stated I do not believe young children are ready to decide their gender allocation. I believe their choices should be supported and accepted by their parents, but I do not think kids have the mental capabilities to make rational, logical decisions on things of a magnitude that will affect them for the rest of their lives. I do not believe they are mentally developed enough.

The trouble is that people think this is attacking trans people instead of just common sense.

R5 you go they!

He refused to allow magats to use his tunes at their rallies

He's out of touch if he didn't expect this reaction. Not to mention he changed his tune completely from what he was writing about trans people in November of last year. He was just on The Masked Singer praising crossdressing regardless of age or gender.

Most of us have a more nuanced opinion than the current "accept all identities or die" rhetoric, but you can't say these things as an outsider to a community that you make money from and then expect to continue there not to be backlash.

R8 He wasn't referring to crossdressing in his response.

[quote]He's out of touch if he didn't expect this reaction.

I'm out of touch too then. I pretty much agree with him 100%.

Clueless, progressive gay men have always been their own worst enemies.

[quote]Why invite someone who attacks them?

As R5 says, he is not "attacking" them. He's not attempting to deny them any rights or promoting discrimination against them. He's simply making common-sense statements advocating for caution in making diagnoses. And yet trans people immediately make the assertion that this is an attack. Why are you attacking him, R4?

We need our own parades.

TRAs are just going to destroy everything the LGBT community has fought to attain. While I hate his music, Snider has ALWAYS been a huge gay rights ally. And he's clearly a trans ally too. He doesn't want kids to be drugged before they understand what or who they are. Duh. No one with a brain cell does either. There's nothing remotely anti trans about that.

I am beginning to hate trans activists. Truly.

Trans, trans, trans...blah, blah, blah. They sure cause a lot of shit for the gay community, considering they don't even belong there.

R15, blame Republicans instead

R12 is on the same side as Tucker Carlson. You know nothing about common sense. You freaks are more worried about trans people than guns, the #1 killer of children

His perspective on this is LUTERALLY the consensus perspective.

R11, self-hating GOP gay men are their worst enemies. It's liberals who fought for gay marriage and gays in the military. Your fellow conservatives are still against those things

I really wish he'd stop saying Gay Pride and lumping us in with these leeches. Besides, they threw the gays out of Pride years ago.

Right-wing Milo and Peter Thiel clones are still supporting candidates who are against gay marriage. You freaks don't speak for us.

The New Gay World Order: Unless you have an imaginary vagina or penis, you're out of the club.

I think his position is a reasonable one. I support trans people and their right to live their lives free from hate and discrimination. I do not support gender related medical intervention for anyone under the age of 18. If that makes me a monster then so be it.

[quote]I've recently stated I do not believe young children are ready to decide their gender allocation. I believe their choices should be supported and accepted by their parents, but I do not think kids have the mental capabilities to make rational, logical decisions on things of a magnitude that will affect them for the rest of their lives. I do not believe they are mentally developed enough.

Wait. I'm a staunch trans ally and supporter and believe in gender affirming care for children which IS support and acceptance and that's the common practice among therapists and doctors. They don't put 7 year olds on hormones or even puberty blockers at that age much less suggest surgery. His response is very rational but I'd like to see what he originally said that got him removed.

As black Twitter might say: What lie was told.

Brilliant response.

DL conservatives think 6-year-olds should be tried as adults in court (read the thread about the 6-year-old who shot his teacher)

If 6-year-olds are adults.....why can't 17-year-Olds make choices for themselves?

Also: we let 16-year-olds drive cars, even though driving a car is one of the deadliest things you can do.

What conservatives want to raise the driving age to 18? I don't know of any

R23 thinks 14-year-olds should be tried as adults in the legal system

R8 is a troll. He made no such assertion in his essay. These people come on threads to deflect or subvert. Dan Snyder specifically addressed children undergoing permanent medical procedures. It’s fucking common sense but some devilish agenda has entered the mainstream. It’s fkin common sense. A child should not mutilate or permanently alter their developing body alongside a developing brain.

It’s common fkin sense.

(Dee Snider)

The Trans are so angry, so filled with hate!

I think this is the insidious consequence (intended probably) of the anti-trans lobby that want to ban all gender affirming care and TERFs who hate trans people.

Dee Snider retweeted a post by Kiss' Paul Stanley that were supportive in all ways except they conflate supportive care with hormones and surgery for children. Both Snider and Stanley say they believe in supporting kids until they're old enough to make their own decisions. But they said it using the wrong language-language that was scripted by right wing transphobes to stir up this imaginary controversy that gender affirming care for kids is something more than psychological and social care. It isn't. With a kid, it's repeated visits to a therapist to confirm that they are insistent, persistent, and consistent in their belief that they are transgender and TO ENSURE that they are able to mature before making a life altering decision.

What they said is reasonable but it's one step shy of calling their parents "groomers".

I believe that Snider and Stanley are both supportive but have been bombarded by this lie that if a boy says he wants to wear a dress, it's off to the surgeons! Getting your penis chopped off at 7 years old!

They both basically said they supported gender affirming care with their language but then seemed to oppose it in summary.

The right wing is crafty. Don't trust those bitches.

The Republican at r30 is so filled with hate

He agreed with Paul Stanley’s statement about youth gender transition R24. That’s it.

That sounds reasonable r31, but I think this is the kind of thing that some people, like Dee Snider and Paul Stanley, are reacting to:

[quote] The World Professional Association for Transgender Health said hormones could be started at age 14, two years earlier than the group’s previous advice, and some surgeries done at age 15 or 17, a year or so earlier than previous guidance. The group acknowledged potential risks but said it is unethical and harmful to withhold early treatment.

[quote] The association provided The Associated Press with an advance copy of its update ahead of publication in a medical journal, expected later this year. The international group promotes evidence-based standards of care and includes more than 3,000 doctors, social scientists and others involved in transgender health issues.

I don't think it's entirely imaginary or all rightwing propaganda. Some Trans groups seem to be onboard with hormones and surgeries for minors.

Drop the T.

r35 is Milo Y.

Republicans think 10-year-olds should be working at 2 am

[quote]Both Snider and Stanley say they believe in supporting kids until they're old enough to make their own decisions. But they said it using the wrong language-language that was scripted by right wing transphobes to stir up this imaginary controversy that gender affirming care for kids is something more than psychological and social care. It isn't. With a kid, it's repeated visits to a therapist to confirm that they are insistent, persistent, and consistent in their belief that they are transgender and TO ENSURE that they are able to mature before making a life altering decision.

If it's all just talk therapy, then what's the problem with banning puberty blockers and sex change operations for anyone under 18?

[quote]Republicans think 10-year-olds should be working at 2 am

r37, Louisville is a majority Democratic area.

r39, do your research. That McDonald's franchise is owned by a Republican donor

"If it's all just talk therapy, then what's the problem with banning puberty blockers and sex change operations for anyone under 18?"

What's the problem with banning kids from being tried as adults in the legal system?

R34, my first question (and I am a medical researcher, but not a trans health care expert) is "is it evidence based?" And the article says that it is and is expert supported. My second question is always "do the benefits outweigh the risks" and again, they seem to believe they do.

If we want to stop people from making unalterable changes to their bodies that they may regret, let's go after the over the hill stars who do what Madonna did to her face. Somebody tell Meg Ryan "no! It's against the LAW!" I bet they way outnumber the total population of trans people and the small minority that detransition and have regrets.

And like any health care, you can get good health care, or you can end up looking like Madonna. What we need are more clinicians and counselors who receive proper training and can identify a trans kid from a questioning kid.

But stop blaming the parents for supporting their kids and trying to allow them to have the best life they can. Parents aren't "transing" their kids. They're probably wracked with stress worrying if their kids will be safe in the real world and want to protect them above anything else.

[quote] this imaginary controversy that gender affirming care for kids is something more than psychological and social care

It’s not imaginary. You are either unaware or unwilling to accept the fact that gender confirming care has two components, the social and psychological support component, and the medical component. Not every minor who receives gender affirming care undergoes medical intervention. But there are a large number who do. That means a large number of minors who are receiving puberty blockers and being put on hormones before the age of majority. That’s where the area of concern lies. Nobody is saying that kids don’t have the right to receive psychological and social support in order to live their lives as whomever they feel that they are. It’s the medical part that most people are concerned with. And even that concern, for those who have an opinion, is limited to minors.

The main causes of death in young people are guns and car accidents. And yet the "protect the children" Republicans have no interest in making it harder for kids to get guns (in fact, they want to make it easier) and I haven't heard any mainstream politician say we should raise the driving age to 18. If you claim that you hate trans rights because you want to protect the kids....try again

[quote]If it's all just talk therapy, then what's the problem with banning puberty blockers and sex change operations for anyone under 18?

Well, at 18 you'd be past puberty so it would be too late to start then, and delaying surgery may be unethical, cause more problems with dysphoria and lead to depression and harm. It's a stepwise process. Talk therapy before puberty, puberty blockers before or shortly after puberty starts, then hormones when they're older and off of puberty blockers, then surgery. Not every trans person can tolerate hormone therapy and some choose not to use them or not to have surgery (often because the cost is prohibitive). So none of those steps are fast and hard rules and are evaluated case by case.

[quote]It’s not imaginary. You are either unaware or unwilling to accept the fact that gender confirming care has two components, the social and psychological support component, and the medical component. Not every minor who receives gender affirming care undergoes medical intervention. But there are a large number who do. That means a large number of minors who are receiving puberty blockers and being put on hormones before the age of majority.

You are either unaware or unwilling to understand that I didn't say minors, I said children. Seven year olds. And starting puberty blockers after 18 would be pointless because that would be after puberty. There would be no puberty to block. I'm well aware that there's a psychological, social, and medical component to gender affirming care. And I understand the difference in what type of care is provided at what age.

R8 Not a troll, and I do agree with him on certain points. But you have to be careful about how you word shit like this in the public eye. An old nostalgia act from the 80s that makes his money through gender expression that goes outside of the norm will absolutely be dropped from events with trans people when he says his 2 cents on a public platform.

He's acting shocked over trans people thinking this goes too far, which shows how out of touch he is with the current reality. You can't say anything even slightly negative about trans topics without risking intense backlash.

[quote]You can't say anything even slightly negative about trans topics without risking intense backlash

And you don't think that's a natural reaction to over 450 bills and house legislatures across the country trying to ban gender affirming care for children, adolescents and adults?

When the right wing is coming after you with rocket launchers, you're not gonna respond with kind words and Nerf guns.

I'm a 90s gay. We were furious, aggressive, and confrontational. And we wouldn't be where we are today if we hadn't been.

[quote]But stop blaming the parents for supporting their kids and trying to allow them to have the best life they can. Parents aren't "transing" their kids.

I, for one, am convinced that many of the adolescents who are presenting with gender dysphoria are actually gay or lesbian, but have decided, or are being pressured to decide by homophobic parents, that they are trans, because the trans movement is so vocal and visible right now. We're suddenly seeing a tsunami of trans kids, something that never existed in the past. It doesn't seem like an organic phenomenon.

The trans movement gets outraged when you say this, which I find suspicious in supposed "allies." But I think gays and lesbians have special reason to be a little leery of the trans movement. None of us want to see straight people start thinking that you can just have surgery and all that gay/lesbian nonsense will disappear.

[quote]It’s the medical part that most people are concerned with. And even that concern, for those who have an opinion, is [bold]limited to minors.[/bold]

I think you're blithely unaware that some states are banning it for adults as well.

[quote]I, for one, am convinced that many of the adolescents who are presenting with gender dysphoria are actually gay or lesbian, but have decided, or are being pressured to decide by homophobic parents, that they are trans.

OK, first show me the evidence.

Second, I think that telling trans kids "no you're just confused, you're really gay" is as harmful as telling gay kids "no, you're just confused, you're really straight."

[quote]I support trans people and their right to live their lives free from hate and discrimination.

r23 I used to say this too until I realized that a lot of trans people consider it "hate" and "discrimination" for biological males who self-identify as females not to be allowed in biological female spaces.

Now, I just support common sense.

[quote] legislatures across the country trying to ban gender affirming care for children

Misnomer used to confuse the issue.. If it was actually 𝒈𝒆𝒏𝒅𝒆𝒓 𝒂𝒇𝒇𝒊𝒓𝒎𝒊𝒏𝒈 it would be counseling to overcome their sex change delusions.

R31: "But they said it using the wrong language-language that was scripted by right wing transphobes to stir up this imaginary controversy that gender affirming care for kids is something more than psychological and social care. It isn't."

You are so shameless in your lying. All of America watched as Jazz Jennings was stunted, sterilized, and surgically castrated, all before the age of eighteen. Chloe Cole was prescribed Lupron at age 13 and had a mastectomy at the age of 15 (google it). I could go on and on with other examples, and you know that very well, so why do you lie?

[quote] And you don't think that's a natural reaction to over 450 bills and house legislatures across the country trying to ban gender affirming care for children, adolescents and adults?

Being frustrated is a very natural reaction. Attacking an ally as if they're an enemy is stupidity that leaves you with fewer and fewer allies. It wins no one over. Smart people overlook an occasional misstatement from an ally. Save the vitrol to attack the enemies. The allies aren't the ones attacking you.

[quote]I think his position is a reasonable one. I support trans people and their right to live their lives free from hate and discrimination. I do not support gender related medical intervention for anyone under the age of 18. If that makes me a monster then so be it.

Looks like I'm joining you in monsterville R23

R52 does also make a reasonable point in that a just balance needs to be found between the rights of biological females and trans. That can only happen with calm, rational discussion and a willingness to compromise on both sides, something that is sadly lacking currently

Pretty wild when a straight guy not only proudly appears in support at Pride, but agrees to perform his song "We're Not Gonna Take It" and that becomes the whole theme of Pride.

[quote]So, my lifetime of supporting the Transgender community's right to identify as they want and honoring whatever changes they may make in how they present themselves to the world isn't enough? Why not?

Because you weren't using their approved language, expressing their approved thoughts. Sorry, man, but that's the way it is these days.

[quote]Misnomer used to confuse the issue.. If it was actually 𝒈𝒆𝒏𝒅𝒆𝒓 𝒂𝒇𝒇𝒊𝒓𝒎𝒊𝒏𝒈 it would be counseling to overcome their sex change delusions

First of all, why does your post look like a ransom note?

Second of all gender, affirming care does not refer to transitioning exclusively. When straight women get breast implants to feel more feminine, that is gender affirming care. When men go on testosterone, that is gender affirming care. When your doctor calls you he because "he" is your pronoun, that is gender affirming care. Gender affirming care is care that reaffirms your gender whether you're transgender or cisgender. You're naïve to think that it only applies to transgender people.

[quote][R52] does also make a reasonable point in that a just balance needs to be found between the rights of biological females and trans.

This conversation hardly ever happens around men and trans men. The only time it comes up as when gay men complain about trans men in bathhouses.

Why are people so focused on transgender women in particular?

[quote] TRAs are just going to destroy everything the LGBT community has fought to attain.

The Ts did nothing.

[quote]Being frustrated is a very natural reaction. Attacking an ally as if they're an enemy is stupidity that leaves you with fewer and fewer allies. It wins no one over. Smart people overlook an occasional misstatement from an ally. Save the vitrol to attack the enemies. The allies aren't the ones attacking you.

They're not attacking allies. If you're a gay person who thinks they support trans people can you say " I support, you support you, but here's a laundry list of things I don't agree with" you're not an ally. You're the problem.

I'm not talking about Dee Snider. I'm talking about everyone posting here.

R58 drank the Kool-Aid. There’s no such thing as trans. Humans aren’t butterflies.

[quote] Second, I think that telling trans kids

Trans “kids”. Jesus Christ. In 15 years you’re going to see what a crime this was. Go look at gender reassignment surgery. It’s Nazi experimentation. These drugs also cause tumors.

[quote]Why are people so focused on transgender women in particular?

r59 Because they are biological males with a mental disorder who were raised and socialized as such. This means they were brought up with male privilege. They are also physically stronger than females and have an appendage between their legs that can more easily be used as a weapon to harm others; especially females.

They are biological males. And no amount of "self-identifying" out of that should permit them to infringe on the rights, comfort, and safety of biological females. If they want to feel safe, they need to fight for their own spaces.

Also, r59, how many transmen (read: biological females) are "fighting" to be allowed to be housed in all-male prisons? None? I wonder if the fact that they know that they'll be vulnerable and in danger in a space for biological males who are still physically stronger than them.

A "man" with a vagina in an all-male prison is 100% going to be victimized. They're willing to acknowledge that [bold]those[/bold] biological females would be in danger in a male prison, but for whatever reason, the biological females in women's prisons have nothing to worry about when biological males start entering their spaces. It makes no sense whatsoever.

^ *has something to do with that

Thinking faster than I type

[quote]You are so shameless in your lying. All of America watched as Jazz Jennings was stunted, sterilized, and surgically castrated, all before the age of eighteen. Chloe Cole was prescribed Lupron at age 13 and had a mastectomy at the age of 15 (google it). I could go on and on with other examples, and you know that very well, so why do you lie?

Why are you lying about me lying? I was talking about gender affirming care for kids before they start puberty blockers, not adolescents or young adults.

You go ask Jazz Jennings if she regrets transitioning. And ask Chloe Cole why she gives talks alongside right wing conservatives.

And then post more. Post them all. I want to see every example in the world that you've got.

There’s no such thing as gender affirming care. That’s as truthful as saying that you’re pro-life. This is castration, drugging, mastectomies, and hysterectomies on children.

[quote]R58] drank the Kool-Aid. There’s no such thing as trans. Humans aren’t butterflies.

It's useless to talk to people when they deny the existence of others.

We never had trans kids before. Children weren’t all killing themselves over having a penis. This is hysteria. Gender dysphoria was always a very, very rare disorder. Now it’s risen to 200% in just a few years with young girls.

R69 is a child abuser. Ignores.

R69 is a child abuser. Ignored.

Oh, cool! I blocked R71 and half the stupidity in here disappeared.

Until we see nuance in every group can we say fairness is achieved.

He's right. Everything he said is right.

What's up with major cities choosing straight people as the Grand Marshalls of Pride in the first place?

When I lived in DC, the only three Grand Marshalls I could remember were Valerie Harper, Lynda Carter, and the parents of Matthew Shepard.

TRAs expect and demand complete acceptance of whatever they spout on any given day. Even then they will demand more. It’s not about their human rights as they claim, it’s about total capitulation to their privilege.

I remember Howard Stern telling listeners that Dee Snider’s wife told him that Dee’s cock was so big it made sex painful.

[quote]TRAs expect and demand complete acceptance of whatever they spout on any given day. Even then they will demand more. It’s not about their human rights as they claim, it’s about total capitulation to their privilege.

And you want to tell them how to live their lives, what medical care they can receive and when, what spaces they can access, and you want to control their bodies. So it's also about their total capitulation to YOU.

So it's a fair fight. And I hope they win and you lose.

What does trans have to do with being gay? Pride is GAY Pride. Anything else is about shitting on gay people.

[quote] And you want to tell them how to live their lives,

No one is free to live their lives however they want. There are limits for everyone. Trans people are no exception.

[quote]what medical care they can receive and when,

Only minors under 18.

[quote]what spaces they can access,

r79 Has apparently never seen an "authorized personnel only" sign.

[quote]and you want to control their bodies.

When it comes to minors under 18, the parents "control their bodies." A minor isn't even allowed to get a tattoo without parental consent. We are merely suggesting that parental consent should be usurped when the procedure being consented to can cause permanent irreversible damage to a child's normal development and health (i.e. puberty blockers).

[quote]So it's also about their total capitulation to YOU.

Nope. Just common sense.

[quote]So it's a fair fight. And I hope they win and you lose.

We know you want a world ruled by disorder, devoid of all reason and sense. We know.

Sorry r81, I got the notice you mentioned me, but I already had you blocked, so can't see it. I'm sure it was a thoughtful and well-written response. 🙄

R57 the dividing line runs not between straight and gay anymore but between "Let's promote mutilating children" and "How about let's not".

It’s not about winning or losing r79. Trans can live their lives how they choose provided it isn’t impinging on the rights of others which their demands all too often do. Their demands do not outweigh my rights. People are cancelled, lose jobs simply for disagreeing with the woke agenda.

I don’t believe people can change sex. All the angry demands won’t change that.

It’s quite likely Increases in bisphenol exposure in uterine are driving the increase in the percentage of young people who are trans. Ironically, right wing nut jobs undercutting the EPA might be causing the thing they are freaking out about.

A related, but separate issue:; there have always been more gender dysphoric young people than gender dysphoric adults. There needs to be more research done on markers for dysphoria that will extend to adulthood vs. dysphoria that will resolve. If we could do better separating the two groups I would be in support of early, aggressive medical intervention in the former. But when you are talking about a mixed group it’s like saying here’s 100 woman, half of them have breast cancer, the other half don’t, we can’t tell which are which, should all or none of them have mastectomies?

On another note, his music is not my cup of tea, but Dee Snider is a righteous dude.

[quote] They're not attacking allies. If you're a gay person who thinks they support trans people can you say " I support, you support you, but here's a laundry list of things I don't agree with" you're not an ally. You're the problem.

Actually, you're the problem. An ally is trying to communicate and work through where they are to get to your position. You're classifying them as "the problem". You're turning them off instead of also explaining your POV like a rational person. Meanwhile, the Repubs are taking away rights and dignities and you're pushing allies away because someone simply said aloud where they are on their, as Obama called it, "evolution". That's a very dumb strategy. I don't see how you think that wins anyone over to support you.

I want to know more about Dee’s big cock.

R76 You don't think the parents of Matthew Shepard should have been grand marshalls of the DC pride parade? (It was the 20th anniversary of his death.)

R89, not R76, but pretty sure thy were happy with the ones they mentioned being marshals - it's the explosion of straight marshals since they were querying.

R89, I do. But I was questioning why all are Grand Marshalls seem to be straight

R90, you're correct. I love the fact that we could have celebrity and notable grand Marshalls even if they're straight. And I posted that in a thread where I think half the posters would like to see transgender people excluded from the Pride celebrations.

R91 Well *they* were straight (we assume) because they were Matthew Shepard's parents. As for the other two, I don't know why they were chosen. Maybe to bring attention or sponsors to the parade.

[quote]An ally is trying to communicate and work through where they are to get to your position. You're classifying them as "the problem". You're turning them off instead of also explaining your POV like a rational person.

Being a trans ally that tells trans people I support you, but I think you should have to wait until you've gone through male puberty and your body has irreversibly changed when that could have been prevented so now you will always be a tall trans woman with masculine features is not being a good ally.

Would you have accepted gay allies who said, I support your right to marry and love anyone you want, but I don't support laws that would offer you protection against discrimination at work or housing because I believe employers and landlords deserve the right to their own opinions?

No! Because that's not an ally!

[quote]An ally is trying to communicate and work through where they are to get to your position.

No. Absolutely not. If someone is still working on their feelings or needs time to come around on an issue, they're not an ally. They're a spectator.

[quote]Trans can live their lives how they choose provided it isn’t impinging on the rights of others which their demands all too often do

Please tell me how they impinge on your life.

"When straight women get breast implants to feel more feminine, that is gender affirming care."

...or it's just straight woman "affirming" the Patriarchy that has brainwashed them since the day they were born, but whatever.

"women"

[quote]These drugs also cause tumors.

Oh My God

I feel like I'm posting in crazyland. Lupron was developed as a cancer drug for prostate and breast cancer.

Testosterone can increase the likelihood of prostate cancer and is given to trans men (who don't have prostates)

Estrogen is given to trans women and can increase the likelihood of breast, ovarian, and uterine cancer. Trans women don't have ovaries or uteruses.

Both men and women can develop breast cancer but both drugs are provided to cisgender people all the time.

Please direct me to where you're reading that "These drugs also cause tumors."

Please, don't feed the troll.

[quote]Please, don't feed the troll.

I don't want to, but I can't stand them spreading lies knowing that someone here will read them and then insist it's true because they read it on a gay gossip board.

[quote]...or it's just straight woman "affirming" the Patriarchy that has brainwashed them since the day they were born, but whatever.

That is a WHOLE other conversation. I don't disagree with you, but it doesn't negate the fact that it's gender affirming care. And some women want them after mastectomies because they don't feel "whole" anymore and I think that's an important reason to have them. But again, still gender affirming care.

Dee Snider wrote a book I found in my public library when I was around ten years old— “The Teenage Survival Guide” or something like that. He had enough money, he didn’t need to write a book for pre-teens, but he did, and it was pretty good.

I was only a fan of two of their songs, and it was 1989 or 1990, so their moment had long passed. But I checked out the book because I was a voracious reader and I loved it. One of the chapters was “Family: Can’t Live With ‘Em, Can’t Shoot ‘Em”, and that resonated with me.

I credit that book with teaching me that laughter was the best coping mechanism. I read the book three or four times and I’ve had a soft spot for Dee ever since.

The trans could learn a thing or two from that book. How can they look in the mirror and take themselves so seriously? That’s kind of the trick, laughing.

R3, Hummers are now electric and hybrid vehicles.

R103, It's easier to survive one's teenage years with a huge dick in your pants.

He's right and why are Trans issues dictating who and what the gay commununity does?

[quote]He's right and why are Trans issues dictating who and what the gay commununity does?

How are they dictating who(?) and what the gay community does?

Did you read the article, R107?

Have you been on earth the past couple years?

R108, yep, I read it. You still didn't answer my question.

Not all these kids should be transitioning. These are just US numbers. Over 42,000 in 2021. The number climbs significantly every year on this chart. More in California than anywhere else. I would guess many children go through a period when they have insecurity about gender identification. Many of them outgrow it. You can argue with this or not, but 42,000 is 3 times the size of the town I live in. It's a very large number.

R109, you are talking to two different people.

Dee is totally overreacting. The Trans movement is totally open, reasonable and never vindictive.

I don't think anyone can blame the trans folks for gays losing control of pride. That happened years ago, way before the trans movement became what it now is.

Let the Trans community have their own pride

So who WOULD the transgender community approve of? I bet the list is so small at this point because they would only allow who... other trans people as Grand Marshal? I feel like this decision to drop him is going to cause more harm than good. He seems (or seemed) like a rational ally. That's too bad.

[quote][R109], you are talking to two different people.

Thanks. They're just a brain washed hive mind anyway. So I'll way til my question gets passed though their creepy tentacles to r106.

Oy vey R116. You are an outlier here.

[quote]Oy vey [R116]. You are an outlier here.

That makes me think you're an asshole everywhere.

[QUOTE]So who WOULD the transgender community approve of?

Sam Smith

The ghost of Marsha P Johnson

No just here and to trolls R118.

Those supporting the Dee ban offend a number of people so they should be banned from DL.

Exactly what R87 said

Who said anything about banning people, R121?

Or are you permanently stuck in Victim Mode?

R121 no one mentioned banning anyone.

[quote]No just here and to trolls [R118].

Dude. The "oh god, think about the CHILDREN!" trans haters ARE the trolls. They side with right wing conservative homophobic politicians and repeat Fox News talking points. They make up their own science like anti-vaxxers and want to control the bodies of other people like pro-lifers. And they don't even HAVE KIDS! And if they're gay, they're just dumb enough to not realize that 450 nearly identical bills across the country aren't a fluke: they're a well orchestrated attack plan. Why would they go after such a small population as trans people? Because they're not the ultimate target. We are! First they ban gender affirming care and then they use the term "groomer" constantly. Then we become the groomers and the next wave of attacks is against US. And they've tipped their hat and already started introducing legislation against us. And don't think that we're protected by the Supreme Court. Roe v Wade was the law for 50 years and look what they did to that. Clarence Thomas has already said he thinks the marriage equality issue should be revisited.

Opinions don't change because people are suddenly enlightened. They change because people don't think and they believe that laws are moral even when they're not. Before Obergefell, less than half of American believed gay marriage should be a right. Almost overnight, that number went up to 60% because now it's the law.

So when I see the drop the T gays and others not fully pushing back on the outrageous amount of legislation against trans people, I think I'm surrounded by a bunch of people who would willingly vote against their own self interest.

A troll wouldn't have taken the time to write all that. Trolls drop in, drop a bomb and leave. I am not a troll.

That's nice R125 but I'm not anti-trans and neither is Snyder. I just don't think kids should be transitioned.

Who benefits from prepping a child for transition? There’s a reason why they insist that a potential candidate for transition surgery should wait a while before deciding to switch genders. I hate to bring their name up again but Jazz Jennings should be a cautionary tale for everyone…

[quote]I just don't think kids should be transitioned.

When the American Academy of Pediatrics recommends gender affirming care based on science and evidence and you, a layman, decide they're wrong, you are not NOT anti-trans. Don't call yourself an ally because you aren't one.

[quote]I hate to bring their name up again but Jazz Jennings should be a cautionary tale for everyone…

Yeah. That poor kid turned out so bad the only college she could get into was Harvard. Ask her if she regrets transitioning. Has she ever said she did?

You have no answer for any of the legit concerns about safe spaces for women, youth gender transition or women’s sports r125, you just DARVO, dodge, and dance around the questions. The right flew with this because no one could offer any kind of reasonable answers to these questions it’s all just TERF, NAZI or REPUG. Most people side with Martina Navratilova and not Chase Strangio, 2 left leaning people who would agree with a lot of other issues but are on the far side of each other on these issues.

R130 don't even engage with it.

I love Dee Snyder, & while I support trans people all the way, I also agree that kids aren’t ready for surgery as kids.

If I had a trans child, I’d support them in these ways:

*Therapy.

*Allow them to dress however they wish, including experimenting with makeup when they’re into their teens.

*Call them their preferred pronouns, and new name.

*Make sure they’re growing up in a state and in an environment, where others also accept them and their choices.

*Communicate in ways that encourage them to voice their displeasure with anything or anyone, including myself.

*Listen to their fears, hopes, and dreams, without ridicule or judgement.

*Remain objective enough to understand that hormone therapy is at times, necessary, in order to protect the child’s mental health, once they hit puberty.

Again. I would support my child in every way possible, but I would not deprive them of their own conclusions or choices regarding irreversible surgical procedures.

That decision is on them once they turn 18.

And yep. I’d even pay for the surgery, as long as it’s a choice they made as a legal adult, & if I had the money to do so.

I don’t understand how having these boundaries, makes Dee Snyder, or someone like myself, non supportive of the trans community.

What happens if you completely trans your child via surgery before they’re 18, and then they regret the decision?

Will you be blamed for it?

Maybe.

But a decent parent isn’t necessarily concerned by this.

A decent parent wants to make sure that their child is exercising their free will (a fallacy, I know, I know) or more succinctly described, their autonomy.

I am childless. I am very involved in the day to day lives of two young ladies who consider me to be a parental figure.

Currently, one of them is experiencing a VERY difficult time with substance abuse.

She believes that only religion and Jesus can help her. I’m an atheist, and disagree full heartedly. She knows I’m an atheist. She’s perfectly fine with it, and does not preach to me, nor do I attempt to turn her into an atheist.

We have spent many, many hours sharing our own stories about addiction and recovery with each other, which is preferable than her not having anyone she can trust and turn to.

I am now a part of a weekly Bible study she has, and I couldn’t be happier about it.

Religion is the tool she is using at this time, to cope with her addiction, while exercising her creativity, her ability to organize and be a leader, and her need for community and wanting to be of service to others.

I’m SOOO proud of her for taking charge of something, as I have ALWAYS encouraged her to do, since she was a toddler.

Am I going to shut her out because she’s going about her objectives and goals in a way I am not in agreement with?

FUCK NO.

Why?

Because that’s what true love for others, is all about. And let’s not forget that it is way more important for her to be sober, even if through religion, which may eventually resolve its way out of her life, than to ridicule her and put her down because she doesn’t believe or think as I do.

We should RESPECT our children.

We should allow them to express themselves however they wish, and only intercede when observed behavior is rooted in suicidal/homicidal tendencies.

The trans community should consider giving high profile people like Snyder leeway.

Most decent people who have LGBTQ+ children, or are friends with people who have kids who identify as LGBTQ+, feel the same way. The ghouls on the new GOP are NOT the majority. They’re just the loudest and the most heartless/careless.

We can fully support the trans community, while also advocating for children to make their own, permanent, surgical decisions, once they’re of age to legally do so.

R132 goddamn, Frau.

Fuck, this place smells like tuna now.

Most polite, rational people are prepared to accept trans identity for what it is which is a social characteristic only, not biological and not legal.

[quote]When the American Academy of Pediatrics recommends gender affirming care based on science and evidence and you, a layman, decide they're wrong, you are not NOT anti-trans. Don't call yourself an ally because you aren't one.

Studies that exist do not support this. If i am not mistaken there simply isn’t enough evidence to determine whether the medical community should be in favor of or against gender affirming care for children. Further some within the pediatric medical community have said that there is a great deal of pressure to comply with the latest trend of immediately affirming children who identify as gender dysphoric. Not remain neutral, but to affirm. Many within the medical community do not feel this is appropriate.

There are also young people out there who are sharing their experiences of being given cross sex hormones within a month of identifying as gender dysphoric. For those who now regret taking these drugs this fast track access to them was not a positive.

R133, when will you finally realize that your ridiculous misogyny does not affect me?

Seriously.

Focus on someone else, because I’m absolutely solid with myself, and nothing you say to me, “shakes me to my core”.

You’re a child inside an adult’s body.

Hopefully, you might grow up some day, & realize how fucking awesome it feels to not be innately shook up by the minutiae hurled at you by total strangers or even loved ones.

People like you, are sadly, nothing but REALLY insecure, lonely, hateful people who have failed sorely at genuine, human connection.

I’m not mad at you, however, I am concerned for you, & genuinely hope you can turn things around someday.

I will not engage with you any longer after this post. I know you are in a state of constant fear, pain, & insecurity, hence you seek attention & validation.

It’s not my job to help you. But surely others can, but you’re either too cheap to pay for help, or even worse, you believe you do not need help.

Best of luck to you, dear one.

Hey r125 would you care to let us know about some of the legislation against trans people you refer to? I think they enjoy the same rights as everyone else. Their demands are not rights but simply them seeking special privilege.

R125, I honestly hope you ignore R137.

R137 is a true blue troll.

Ignore it, stand tall, & be happy.

R136 a cunt through and through. Wow, the passive aggression is phenomenal. Here you are shitting on gay men and taking over OUR space but i guarantee you wouldn’t say a single ill word to a macho straight daddy. The umbrella of projections is a great technique. You type incest survivor who should work out her daddy issues in therapy and not glomming into gays.

That’s it r138? Throw out an insult and encourage r125 to stand tall and be happy? You bring so much to the discussion.

R138 and R125 are one and the same.

r96 how about demanding admittance to single sex spaces and trying to erase same sex attraction preferring their gender gibberish?

Thank you r141. That makes sense.

Thanks r138. They can google it. I'm blocking them but for anyone else interested the link is below.

[quote][R138] and [R125] are one and the same

No we're not. Use ignoredar and you'll see.

Denying kids access to puberty blockers means they will go through their biological sex puberty and develop female or male features that cause them dysphoria. Puberty, blockers are intended to delay puberty until they're ready to start hormone therapy and can go through cross-sex puberty.

Why would someone think it's in the best interest of making a male child who tells you their trans go through male puberty, get taller, grow more muscular, and grow facial and body hair that they won't want when no amount of hormones after 18 will change their size and body shape? So they'll forever be reminded that they were born a male but identify as a woman.

Snider isn't taking about giving surgery to minors. He never explicitly says that. Or even refers to puberty blockers or hormones. But everyone hearing him is hearing "No treatment until you're 18l" and agreeing with that.

Well guess what, at 18 it's too late to undo the effects of not having access to puberty blockers.

And if a male adolescent started puberty blockers then followed it with hormone therapy, he would go through female puberty and remain smaller and wouldn't have any natural advantage over biological females in sports. Which seems to be a chief complaint, But people spout bogus science and deny real science to push an agenda. Mostly on OTHER people's kids. That is what's cruel.

As far as surgery, very few surgeries happen before 18. If you want to legislate barring surgery before 18, fine. But it's also cruel because it's unethical and it can worsen dysphoria.

And the majority of states have some provision that allows for minors to consent to their own medical care, often under fucked up situations like being homeless (not an uncommon occurrence for trans kids). Even the reddest states allow for it. Some with no age limit.

Gays and trans need a divorce PRONTO. The Dylan Mulvaney crap had people saying it was a gay beer, not a trans beer. People can’t differentiate gay from trans. We’re getting blamed for this insanity. Gay orgs now taken over by TRAs want it that way. They hitched their wagon to the progress we made for themselves. They also needed a new grift after gay marriage passed.

They didn’t even have a gay man up there for the Pride event.

All these gay guys fucking trans man pussy now is disturbing.

The Pride match last year featured all trans, and one lesbian as the deputies of the parade. Gay men are too straight for Pride now.

[quote]Studies that exist do not support this. If i am not mistaken there simply isn’t enough evidence to determine whether the medical community should be in favor of or against gender affirming care for children.

So you say studies that exist don't support it, but at the same time you may be mistaken Sounds like you've done a ton of research.

Here's the list of medical societies that support it. Go read all their policies and see what research they're based them.

American Academy of Child and

Adolescent Psychiatry

American Academy of Dermatology

American Academy of Family Physicians

American Academy of Nursing

American Academy of Pediatrics

American Academy of Physician Assistants

American College Health Association

American College of Nurse-Midwives

American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists

American College of Physicians

American Counseling Association

American Heart Association

American Medical Association

American Medical Student Association

American Nurses Association

American Osteopathic Association

American Psychiatric Association

American Psychological Association

American Public Health Association

American Society of Plastic Surgeons Endocrine Society

Federation of Pediatric Organizations

GLMA: Health Professionals Advancing LGBTQ Equality

National Association of Nurse Practitioners in Women's Health

National Association of Social Workers

National Commission on Correctional Health Care

Pediatric Endocrine Society

Society for Adolescent Health and Medicine

World Medical Association

World Professional Association for Transgender Health

R144 I blocked hours ago. Why are you showing up again? Mtiple accounts?

I have never had a problem with trannies. Now I can’t stand them.

^^^multiple

R151, then you didn't block me because I only use one account. I'm not a troll who's scared to have people see what I've posted. Sometimes when I block people it doesn't work and I have to do it a second time. Block me again.

R152, that's obvious through your use of the slur "trannies".

[quote] Why would someone think it's in the best interest of making a male child who tells you their trans go through male puberty, get taller, grow more muscular, and grow facial and body hair that they won't want when no amount of hormones after 18 will change their size and body shape?

Why?? Because teenagers and children are naive, fickle and highly suggestible.

In my years at DL I've come to notice that trolls generally must respond to every.fucking.response even when they know they've been blocked. Poo, Greg, etc.

R148, that thing ain’t no pussy! We don’t want to be lumped in with these sad clowns, either.

You trans are on your own. Make your own way like everyone else has to.

[quote]So you say studies that exist don't support it, but at the same time you may be mistaken Sounds like you've done a ton of research.

I don’t do a “ton” of research, I just like to stay informed. Much of what I know comes from transgendered women who have platforms on social media. I have not seen any transgendered men speak on the issue except those that regret taking cross sex hormones and are now transitioning back to female. Needless to say, they share the view that cross sex hormones are given too quickly and easily. Many transgender women are very much against giving cross sex hormones to underage kids as well. Not all, but there are many that feel very strongly about it.

Finally, as I mentioned on another thread, I saw a great doc that was posted by someone on DL that was about the issue of gender identity, young people and hormones. There were doctors that were interviewed that spoke out against the pressure they see and feel is being put on the medical community, including psychiatrists, to immediately affirm all young people that say they are dysphoric. Given the turmoil and confusion that comes with the teen years for most, common sense would be to remain supportive, but neutral at least initially.

I’m not really convinced by that list of organizations you posted. Have they all done studies regarding the issue? No. What are their policies regarding giving young people cross sex hormones and when it is appropriate to do so? Is there a consensus? If so, based on what? And so on.

What gay men are fucking tranny pussy?

[quote] In my years at DL I've come to notice that trolls generally must respond to every.fucking.response even when they know they've been blocked.

If they are blocked by you then what or whom are they responding to? Troll.

[quote] I'm blocking them but for anyone else interested the link is below.

You can’t block anyone here. You can only ignore.

R150 is correct. There are no studies that exist to support the use of puberty blockers or hormone therapy in children.

[quote]I don’t do a “ton” of research, I just like to stay informed. Much of what I know comes from transgendered women who have platforms on social media. I have not seen any transgendered men speak on the issue except those that regret taking cross sex hormones and are now transitioning back to female. Needless to say, they share the view that cross sex hormones are given too quickly and easily. Many transgender women are very much against giving cross sex hormones to underage kids as well. Not all, but there are many that feel very strongly about it. Finally, as I mentioned on another thread, I saw a great doc that was posted by someone on DL that was about the issue of gender identity, young people and hormones. There were doctors that were interviewed that spoke out against the pressure they see and feel is being put on the medical community, including psychiatrists, to immediately affirm all young people that say they are dysphoric. Given the turmoil and confusion that comes with the teen years for most, common sense would be to remain supportive, but neutral at least initially

Well staying informed through social media and doing research are really not the same thing. What you see through social media is filtered through the lens of people who already have an opinion. And you're going to see the people who had problems posting about them, not the people who didn't have problems and are happy. What you see on social media is very skewed towards the negative.

Same thing with the physicians and therapists. They are in the minority, because nobody is interested in hearing from care providers who are doing a good job and believe that it is beneficial. It's the nature of news. If it bleeds it leads.

[quote]I’m not really convinced by that list of organizations you posted. Have they all done studies regarding the issue? No. What are their policies regarding giving young people cross sex hormones and when it is appropriate to do so? Is there a consensus? If so, based on what? And so on.

That list is societies of providers in different specialties, and they don't do research at all. They examine the evidence in expert panels and make recommendations. And those recommendations are what clinicians follow. And they all follow a fairly rigorous process to create their recommendations. I worked with the AMA for two years before they would recommend routine HIV testing for all persons between 13 and 64. It took them two years to conclude that it should be their recommendation. If you want to see the research, you'd have to go to every single individual article and read it yourself. And outside of these organizations, nobody has the time or resources to do that. So what you're seeing are the top medical society's recommendations based on evidence that they have reviewed. And that's how all medicine works.

I hope you understand that I'm trying to come across as sincere and not argumentative. But there are experts out there. And if we don't trust the experts, and we rely on the tweeters and the redditors, we're gonna be way worse off!

[quote][R150] is correct. There are no studies that exist to support the use of puberty blockers or hormone therapy in children.

You mean in prepubescent children, right? Otherwise that's not what we're agreeing on.

[quote]You can’t block anyone here. You can only ignore.

Semantics

R161 are you dumb? Troll.

Didn’t the US base it’s ‘policies’ or whatever on a Swedish study that had now fallen under scrutiny?

Europe has pulled back from this and the US is lagging behind a bit, but I think they will, too.

[quote]I have never had a problem with trannies. Now I can’t stand them.

I believed every one who claimed to be trans, because they were like someone finding a previously unknown painting by a major artist in the attic. It happens, although it's rare. Now it's as if tens of thousands of Rembrandts and Renoirs are being found across the country in every attic and garage in every city, town and village. It's starts to become less believable. There will come a day when the number falls back to something realistic.

It's a fad R169. There are real transsexuals but now every adolescent seems to be using it for shock value. I too believe it will subside to more believable levels.

[quote] There are no studies that exist to support the use of puberty blockers or hormone therapy in children.

Only for precocious puberty. Now, Europe and Scandinavia is banning puberty blockers and hormones for “trans kids” because of the damning research that came out.

The girls declaring that they’re trans are cutters.

R37 How about "child labor is bad, but so is mutilating children". The two are not mutually exclusive, you know.

[quote]Many physicians in the United States and elsewhere are prescribing blockers to patients at the first stage of puberty — as early as age 8 — and allowing them to progress to sex hormones as soon as 12 or 13. Starting treatment at young ages, they believe, helps patients become better aligned physically with their gender identity and helps protect their bones.

[quote]But that could force life-altering choices, other doctors warn, before patients know who they really are. [bold]Puberty can help clarify gender, the doctors say[/bold] — for some adolescents reinforcing their sex at birth, and for others confirming that they are transgender.

[quote]“The most difficult question is whether puberty blockers do indeed provide valuable time for children and young people to consider their options, [bold]or whether they effectively ‘lock in’ children and young people to a treatment pathway,”[/bold] wrote Dr. Hilary Cass, a pediatrician leading an independent review in England of medical treatments of adolescents presenting as transgender.

[quote] In my years at DL I've come to notice that trolls generally must respond to every.fucking.response even when they know they've been blocked. Poo, Greg, etc.

And just how would you know that?

TROLL

Of course that shit is going to fuck people up physically.

[quote]“The most difficult question is whether puberty blockers do indeed provide valuable time for children and young people to consider their options, or whether they effectively ‘lock in’ children and young people to a treatment pathway,” wrote Dr. Hilary Cass, a pediatrician leading an independent review in England of medical treatments of adolescents presenting as transgender.

That's a fair article but you cherry picked all the negative quotes. And the comment that puberty blockers " ‘lock in’ children and young people to a treatment pathway” is the exact opposite of its intended person. They're supposed to delay starting hormones until someone is old enough and sure they want to proceed and give them time to opt out.

But like I said before, there's good care and bad care. And if we banned all care where people may regret the results Madonna wouldn't look like a bridge troll and Michelle Pfeiffer wouldn't still be a gorgeous woman.

Dr. Marci Bowers weighed in on this after the article was published and her comments were so badly misinterpreted and used as a weapon against trans affirming care. She suggested that puberty blockers were still important but maybe should be delayed in male to female trans adolescents until they had enough time to develop enough penile tissue to make a reassignment surgery more successful. But she was only taking about male to female patients and only suggested delaying it a little bit.

But the anti-trans brigade LOVE to use that quote against her even when they are knowingly presenting it in a misleading way.

It doesn't matter. Your side will not win this argument.

r177 The fact that you're even trying to defend the act of delaying a natural and normal process of human development (puberty) is problematic. The entire process is regulated by the endocrine system which is guided by the pituitary gland in the brain; a very sensitive body system as any endocrinologist will tell you.

The research used to state that the effects are "reversible" is used disingenuously because they are using cases related to children suffering from "precocious puberty." In these cases, there is something already [bold]wrong[/bold] with the normal pubertal development process of the child and the puberty blockers are only delaying an already [bold]irregular[/bold] process and then stopping it once the child's body "catches up" by allowing the child's already abnormal puberty process to continue.

That's the "reversal" they're referring to. There has not been sufficient research nor evidence to support that use of puberty blockers on healthy children who would otherwise develop normally doesn't have irreversible and negative consequences on their reproductive systems and sexual function in the future.

Neither side can win because both sides are wrong.

r180 How exactly is the side that states puberty blockers shouldn't be given to healthy children who don't have precocious puberty because the long-term effects are still unknown "wrong?"

R177 You are conflating middle-aged celebrities getting fillers with teenagers being sterilized and turned into lifelong medical patients.

Who is this troll advocating for kids to get puberty blockers?

[quote] Semantics

Leave the Jews out of this

R181 Early and aggressive medical intervention in trans minors who will go on to become trans adults will decrease the the number of surgeries needed over a lifetime while also decreasing concerns over sports advantages/disadvantages and psychological issues around failure to pass.

Trans minors who will go on to be trans adults are obviously a subgroup of all trans minors and there’s the rub that makes both sides wrong because we don’t have a reliable way to distinguish the minors who will be trans for life from the trans minors who will become cis-adults.

[quote]Who is this troll advocating for kids to get puberty blockers?

I'm a research scientist.

[quote]Trans minors who will go on to be trans adults are obviously a subgroup of all trans minors and there’s the rub that makes both sides wrong because we don’t have a reliable way to distinguish the minors who will be trans for life from the trans minors who will become cis-adults.

There is no research on it or numbers but the best guesses are the numbers of detransitioners are very low and very vocal on Reddit.

Medical interventions in minors so far have been relatively rare so there’s no way to know how many there will be now that it is becoming more common. Trans identity in adulthood is stable.

Better and more research is urgently needed, but instead we get these extremist, idiotic, vitriolic arguments. Trans kids deserve better.

[quote]Better and more research is urgently needed.

Indeed, we do. But answering questions like whether it's better to withhold treatment from minors is a dangerous proposition when we know that they're depressed, express more suicidality, and an outcome of withholding treatment could be suicide.

Lol he looks like Joe Biden

I would think suicide would more likely be the result of an inadequately supportive family, bullying or co-morbid mental illness R190.

But if you are concerned about mental health it’s disingenuous to ignore the mental health of people who will have to detransition.

[quote] Who is this troll advocating for kids to get puberty blockers? -- I'm a research scientist.

ok

[quote]But if you are concerned about mental health it’s disingenuous to ignore the mental health of people who will have to detransition.

I never said that the mental health of people who choose to detransition wasn't important. I don't know where you pulled that out of. I said, a trial where an endpoint could be suicide would be unethical.

Period.

And when you say "[bold]I think[/bold] suicide would more likely be the result of an inadequately supportive family, bullying or co-morbid mental illness, it tells me that you're basing your decision on your opinion, not data.

I don't know why you wanna fight about this.

R193, HIV, clinical researcher. I helped bring you PrEP. Worked on it from inception to FDA approval.

How is it reversible - you can't reverse a micropenis.

Here's the very unpleasant truth ...

Severe dysphoria where those involved sincerely see themselves as the other sex has been eclipsed by autogynes and the ... confused, those with "issues".

[quote] an outcome of withholding treatment could be suicide

There is no evidence to back that up. Frankly, this argument only supports the sense that this is a mental health issue and not a physical one.

[quote]I'm a research scientist.

Not going to fly here, doll.

I guess it’s personal R194 because one of my dearest friends when I was a minor was trans as an adolescent and I think given her persistent sense of herself as male and doing things like breast binding (in the 80s) and her desire to surgically transition she’d likely get medical intervention as a young ‘un now. As an adult she’s a happy cis straight woman so that would have been a bad decision and might have resulted in serious mental health issues.

I don’t think we were ever discussing clinical trials. Of course suicide as an endpoint is unethical. I was thinking more of NLP reviews of the EHRs of adolescents treated for dysphoria looking at outcomes over says a 10 year period say from age 15 to 25, to look for markers of persistence of trans identity into adulthood.

[quote]There is no evidence to back that up. Frankly, this argument only supports the sense that this is a mental health issue and not a physical one.

There is plenty of evidence to back that up if you even bother to look. And yes, suicidal ideation is a mental health issue brought on by a physical medical issue. Addressing the medical relieves the psychological. Even folks going through cancer treatment can require mental health support but you wouldn't say "we don't need to treat your cancer, you're just depressed!" 🙄

[quote]I'm a research scientist.

[quoteNot going to fly here, doll.

Ignoredar me. I've posted about it before. It's not like I decided 20 years ago to make up this lie and keep repeating it so that one day I would be asked and I could drop it here when asked who I was.

And I've said before, it's just a job. I went to school and studied medicine and epidemiology and then got a job doing HIV research. Someone has to do it.

I could just as easily challenge you that you're not *really* the manager at a Burger King or accuse you of lying about it.

But I wouldn't do that, because it's beneath me to be unkind. 🤗

Fry cook.

Voice of the Night, a glorified chiropractor who posts here, studied medicine, too, and he does a GREAT JOB of reminding everyone every fucking post.

[quote]Of course suicide as an endpoint is unethical. I was thinking more of NLP reviews of the EHRs of adolescents treated for dysphoria looking at outcomes over says a 10 year period say from age 15 to 25, to look for markers of persistence of trans identity into adulthood.

That would be an excellent idea, but I can already see problems.

In response to a legislative request, I did an analysis on the percentage of young persons in my state receiving gender, affirming care, and it's 20%. We know how many patients receive some type of care, and we have an estimate of the number of transgender youth. It's increasing annually, but it's far from 100%.

And even doing that analysis was a nightmare. Working in sexual health, we've been asking doctors to collect SOGI data (sexual orientation and gender identity) for years and the uptake has been sloooow. So some transgender women are coded as sex=female and some are coded as sex=male. And we can't tell the difference. When they get diagnosed with a gender identity disorder, there can be an ICD-9 or 10 code that says they have gender dysphoria or have been diagnosed as transgender. But if that all happened before EMRs were instituted, we will never see that diagnosis again. And we have to resort to things like looking for males that have had gynecological appointments or have a history of pregnancy. And we can't use pharmacy data reliably, because the same drugs are used for transgender and cisgender people who are taking them for hormone replacement therapy. So the data is fraught with problems.

And then the other problem is all we have is observational and survey data. And if you present that, people just throw their hands up in the air and scream "but it's not a clinical trial!" I have thought about this for a long time. I cannot design a clinical trial that could predict whether a young person was transgender or merely questioning without it being unethical or posing harm. What we do know is data from gender clinics where patients have returned to detransition and that's less than 1% of patients. And undoubtedly some detransitioners don't go back to their gender clinic to detransition, so it's an underestimate, but we don't know by how much.

And before anyone asks, I am the HIV researcher, I have also done analyses on gender affirming care, but it's not my specialty. But I still know a hell of a lot about the topic. And I didn't get that information from the Internet.

[quote]Voice of the Night, a glorified chiropractor who posts here, studied medicine, too, and he does a GREAT JOB of reminding everyone every fucking post

And I've only posted it when people asked what I did or questioned where I was getting my information from.

The fact that there are "gender clinics" at all is insane. Gender is made up. There are traits and preferences. If a boy likes pink and is sensitive it means he is a sensitive boy who likes pink, that's it. It's child abuse that these "atypical" children are then carted off to a gender clinic, often to become lifelong patients all because of "gender."

If we have gender clinics we might as well have phrenology clinics and blood-letting clinics, bring back all the old-timey quackery.

I'm available to take his place! And I'm a GAY MAN!

[quote]The fact that there are "gender clinics" at all is insane. Gender is made up.

Do you know the difference between genotype and phenotype? Think about it in those terms. Sex is your genotype. It's what your genetics say. Phenotype is your gender, it's what you look like on the outside. Saying gender doesn't exist is like saying a brunette can't go to a salon and become a blonde. Sure they could go back to brunette, but they'll probably want to stay blonde for the rest of their life. That's not a great analogy by any means, but I tried to keep it simple for you.

20% r204? Not 2%? 20%? How exactly is gender-affirming care defined in that figure?

[quote]20% [R204]? Not 2%? 20%? How exactly is gender-affirming care defined in that figure?

20% of young persons that identify as transgender received some type of gender affirming care that included medical and pharmaceutical care that ranged from things as simple and non-invasive as talk therapy all the way to surgery. Our report was on persons 24 and younger, so that's why surgeries were included. We did not include things like treatment for depression, because we couldn't tell if a person was receiving treatment related to gender dysphoria or to something else.

And you really think it would only be 2%? When people here go on and on about how many kids are being "forced into the trans pipeline"?

But we had to be very careful and our report has a ton of cautions about interpreting the data. Because we only have 20% of the population, it's very non-representative. And it probably skews to young people who have support of their parents and the resources to pay for treatment. So the only take away is that only 20% are receiving some type of gender affirming care.

And R210 and this post may have to be my last, because this thread (website) are getting buggy as hell, and keep deleting my posts that I've typed before I can click post, and the page refreshes, and gives me a page not found error. (So rejoice trans haters!)

Oh, okay, thanks r210. I thought you were saying 20% of young people in the state were receiving some kind of gender-affirming care. Thanks for the explanation, and I for one hope you stick around. Some of us are honestly looking for answers, and you seem to have some.

[quote]There is plenty of evidence to back that up if you even bother to look.

No, bitch. That study is a secondary analysis of previous research done almost 10 years ago. And here is what the study says about its own limitatations:

[quote]It is possible that people with better mental health status at baseline are more likely to be able to access GAH, thus confounding associations between GAH access and adult mental health outcomes measured.

[quote]The 2015 USTS sample is younger, with fewer racial minorities, fewer heterosexual participants, and higher educational attainment when compared with probability samples of TGD people in the U.S [32].

[quote]Because all participants identified as non-cisgender, [bold]those who initiated GAH and subsequently identified as cisgender would not necessarily be represented in this study.[/bold]

That last limitation is a pretty major one, don't you think? How can you measure the positive benefits of GAH in children when your data has excluded all of the people who decided they did not want to go through with it?

You have no evidence. Only propaganda.

[quote]No, bitch. That study is a secondary analysis of previous research done almost 10 years ago.

Oh, you read the study, how nice! Do you know what a secondary analysis is? I don't see how that has any bearing on the report. It means that they used a data set to answer something beyond their primary research question. It doesn't mean it's bad in any way. And so what if the data is 8 years old? The data from the 2022 survey isn't available yet how do you propose the analyze data that they don't have?

[quote]The 2015 USTS sample is younger, with fewer racial minorities, fewer heterosexual participants, and higher educational attainment when compared with probability samples of TGD people in the U.S [32].

Nice work! Scientist like to list their limitations. People without evidence don't.

[quote]Because all participants identified as non-cisgender, those who initiated GAH and subsequently identified as cisgender would not necessarily be represented in this study.

[quote]That last limitation is a pretty major one, don't you think?

You conveniently (intentionally?) left off the end of that last quote. "Because all participants identified as non-cisgender, those who initiated GAH and subsequently identified as cisgender would not necessarily be represented in this study; [bold]existing literature, however, suggests that this is a rare occurrence [2, 33]."[/bold]

See? They even provided you with references!

Don't go around, calling people "bitch" when you're a DUMB bitch.

Thanks R212. I can see the misunderstanding about the 20%. I wasn't clear that it was only among transgender young people.

Why would he bother even responding? Would he care if Jim Jones spoke out against him? Stop sensationalizing this cult.

Twishted Shishter.

[quote]Why would he bother even responding?

Are you talking about Dee Snider?

I think it was smart for him to respond. He said the San Francisco pride organizers gave him the boot, but they claim it was a mutual decision, and they had a lovely educational conversation.

I believe him over them.

And even though I'm the one posting all the pro-trans posts in here, I actually think the SF pride organizers overreacted. I think they could've had an easy conversation with him, he could've clarified his remarks, and we could've all gone about business as usual.

So I think defending himself was an appropriate thing to do.

I'm still never gonna concede that denying trans kids gender affirming care is wrong and dangerous. But I can tell the difference between an ally and a trans-hater.

I bear no ill will towards him.

[quote]I'm still never gonna concede that denying trans kids gender affirming care is wrong and dangerous.

Just like the Republicans who will never concede that the 2020 election was fair.

Actually, solid research indicates the human brain remains immature and does not finish forming adult decision-making faculties until about one's mid-20's. That is not some experimental theory, that is established mainstream research. Based on that, arguably responsible medical doctors should be refusing or at least strongly advising, no gender transition surgery until the mid-20's. Of course, I won't win on that one, since a person can make their own choices once they're legally of age.

But . . . "gender-affirming care for kids," is supposed to be a euphemism for, surgery and hormone-dosing on minors? Unbelievable. That's more like child abuse. To oppose hormone dosing and/or surgery on minors is the opposite of bigotry, it's is being ethical and humane, protecting kids from irreversible, medically risky life decisions until they are old enough to evaluate the pros and cons and exercise an adult choice to take that step. That's characterized as evil or bigoted? What a world we live in.

[quote]Just like the Republicans who will never concede that the 2020 election was fair.

Except it's Republicans standing on house floors in states across the country lying and making claims that girls are transitions because of social contagion (which is a lie and has been disproved) and that Lupron causes tumors (it's an anti-cancer drug) and passing legislation to ban it based on zero evidence. So YOU'RE actually the one participating in the BIG LIE and you can't even see it.

[quote]Actually, solid research indicates the human brain remains immature and does not finish forming adult decision-making faculties until about one's mid-20's.

Great. So you believe in research and evidence but ignore the evidence and recommendations of every major medical society that gender affirming care is necessary and prevents adverse outcomes among trans youth because of anecdotal evidence from Reddit. That sounds logical. And I hate to break it to you, but children need medical interventions that are MUCH more dangerous all the time. If you had a child with a heart valve defect that you knew you could operate on, and potentially prevent their premature death as an adult, would you tell them "no you can't have it until you're an adult because you're too young to make that decision"?

[quote]But . . . "gender-affirming care for kids," is supposed to be a euphemism for, surgery and hormone-dosing on minors? Unbelievable.

You need to define kids because the recommendations for pre-pubescent children DO NOT include hormones or surgery. I've repeated that a 100 times in this thread. And the recommendations for starting puberty blockers and hormones before someone is fully an adult is because it will prevent them from going through puberty into a body that they hate and will have to live with for the rest of their lives. So why do you want to harm trans children by letting, say, trans girls, grow 6 feet tall, develop adams apples and beards when you could prevent that and allow them to have a body they want and spare them being harassed and ridiculed for their appearance. Is that not harm? Explain to me how that's a GOOD thing.

There's that euphemism again. There's plenty of "gender-affirming care" available to MINORS that does not involve irreversible and medically risky procedures that should be the province of ADULT decision-making. Having "a body you hate" is a rite of passage for many kids and teens--it may or may not indicate that person will choose in mature adulthood to irrevocably alter that body through surgery or subject that body's endocrine system to a hormonal drug regime in perpetuity, let alone, starting when it isn't even fully formed yet.

Decades ago, the Los Angeles Times Letters column hosted letters from readers for months and months prolonging a "Separated at Birth" type running joke comparing Twisted Sister's Dee Snider to King James II. It simply wouldn't die and may have gone on for years. Week after week, there those side-by-side portraits were in the"Letters" column as readers were subjected by letter-writers to one bad gag after another on the topic.

R223, I don't know what you think gender affirming care is a euphemism for. What would you call it? The care provided to prepubescent children is non-medical. It's therapy to determine if they are persistent, consistent and insistent in their belief that they are not the sex they were born.

And yes, hating your body is extremely common among young people, but it's different than believing you were born in the wrong body.

And if you don't understand why it's important to start transitioning before your body has reached adulthood, then you're missing the point. By adulthood, you can't change the effects of puberty. It's too late. The reason to intervene before adulthood is to prevent people from living in bodies that they will always hate, not bodies that they hated as teenagers but grew to accept.

And I'll challenge the notion that any changes that trans youth undergo are irrevocable. If you can transition from one gender to another, then you can transition from that gender back to your original one. It's a costly mistake, but it's not irrevocable. And it's a very small minority of people that do. If you opt for vaginoplasty, sure you're never getting your penis back. That's a personal decision that needs to be made by an individual, not you And if you want to tell people to hold off on surgeries until they're adults, I have no objection. But denying them access to puberty blockers, and hormones, and not allowing them to go through the puberty of the gender they need to is inhumane.

And r223.

P.S. You're a terrible writer. Your sentences are overly long, awkwardly constructed run-ons in the passive tense that are practically indecipherable. Learn to write more concisely. Your writing is pretentious.

I believe EPIC now has different fields for sex assigned at birth and Gender so that should make such a study much more feasible as large medical centers use it.

And again the study isn’t about treatment or non-treatment; just predictors of dysphoria that will persist vs. not.

[quote]The reason to intervene before adulthood is to prevent people from living in bodies that they will always hate, not bodies that they hated as teenagers but grew to accept.

“Grew to accept” doesn’t mean millions of non-trans people in that boat didn’t stop hating their fate of having the body they have. However, with age most people do accept reality and find a way to make the best of it. The problem seems to be then of getting young people over the hump with proper mental health care, not mutilation, until they are mature enough to learn to deal with some awful things that life can hand us.

[quote]So YOU'RE actually the one participating in the BIG LIE and you can't even see it.

If that’s the case, include transracial, trans-handicapped, (trans identities as of now), and ex-gay, then I’m onboard.

Obviously my response at R227 was directed at R204.

Here’s an article about the EPIC addition.

A NLP AI review of thousands of EMRs would not be treated like a survey or human chart review. Just look at the excitement around NLP AI’s ability to flag prodromal schizophrenia.

R225: "If you opt for vaginoplasty, sure you're never getting your penis back."

Don't you think this comment is a bit... cavalier? We're not talking about a botched manicure, here.

R231 You are also sterilized, will never have an orgasm and will you be a medical patient doe the rest of your life. We are letting teenagers do this to themselves.

Transgenderism is extremely rare. It’s not the numbers we see today. Not even close.

I would argue it might not even exist.

I’m with r181.

I’m disappointed in ElderLez.

T is a hoax.

No child is trans.

Nobody is born in the wrong body.

This is a medical attack on children.

We are in the midst of an atrocity.

Why does that disappoint you, R235? Gays and lesbians are the biggest proponents of transgenderism. Don’t let the “anti-“ cult gay contingent here (myself included) fool you. We are a very tiny minority.

And the sad thing is, in 10 years these gays and lesbians will lie and deceive (naturally) by stating they were never “pro-trans”, fuck them. The damage is done. No forgiveness, and forgiveness happens with these “reformers”, that’s terrible.

True, r236.

How do we get past this?

As long as Rachel Maddow, Gloria Steinem, Rosie O’Donnell & all of our liberal institutions are completely captured by this absurdity, lives will be ruined if not cut short.

How could people be so stupid?

You cut them off completely, R239. These are not your friends (or brothers and sisters). I don’t associate with the gay community at all. I don’t donate, support, vote for gay candidates. You cut them off, for good. And the “pro” cultists today will claim to not be years from now, no forgiveness. They caused such an inconceivable mess. You might forgive, but I never will.

This thread shows what a mess we’re in with this issue.

Epic is not an acronym, r230.

Big Tech has been the driving force for this hoax from the outset…this is from

[quote] Dana McCallum, a transgender activist and former Twitter Engineer, confessed before the court to a vicious attack on his wife. On January 29, 2014, Mr McCallum was charged with three counts of Spousal Rape, one count of False Imprisonment and one count of Domestic Violence, all felonies. In 2020, it was revealed that Mr McCallum is now known as Dana Davidsen. The man who once faced the court for the brutal rape of a woman now works part-time in aviation, where he is able to teach young women how to fly.

Epic’s founder looks trans.

Same, r240.

Anyone who supports T ideology in any way, shape or form has zero credibility. They are also dangerous because they use newspeak to justify unspeakable things including outright violence.

We should be focusing instead on finding those kids who got separated from their families at the border when Trump was president.

We should instead be focusing on ending violence against women & children.

We lost abortion rights under President Biden…the man who threw Anita Hill under the bus.

[quote]I believe EPIC now has different fields for sex assigned at birth and Gender so that should make such a study much more feasible as large medical centers use it.

I am very familiar with EPIC. Only slightly more than 50% of patient records are in EPIC and almost always in large hospital systems. The last hospital I worked at only switched three years ago and a hospital where I get some specialty care just started using it May 1 this year. And the problem with EPIC is that outside of our STI clinic and our gender clinic, most of that data is missing from other providers. And they didn't even add a field for gender identity until 2017 and EPIC is epically (haha.) configurable, so hospitals can leave the question off if they choose to.

So it's potentially a great source of information, however, it's not as widely used as it could be, it doesn't represent much more than half of all patients, and it's missing a lot of data. So places like big community LGBTQ, health centers, like Fenway health in Boston, probably don't even use EPIC. I don't know. But I know people at Fenway and I'll ask.

[quote]Don't you think this comment is a bit... cavalier? We're not talking about a botched manicure, here.

After all the invective thrown out here, NOW you're expecting nuance? I posted that because I don't think people are understanding or willing to try to understand half of what I said. So I resorted to speaking to them on their level. And I don't really see how it is cavalier. I didn't say "get yourself a vadge and you're never getting your wiener back".

I'd like the people who claim that banning children from puberty blockers is "right wing" to explain why European countries are also banning them.

Are socialist Scandinavian countries now conservative?

R244 (you are the PrEP researcher, right?) the good news is, I think, that there is likely to be substantial overlap between health systems that use both fields, health systems that go out of their way to provide respectful care to transgender patients (and so are likely to have more than average numbers) and health centers with the super computers capable of performing NLP reviews. And even though the field was only added in 2017, if it is there it still links to the whole chart, not just entries since.

What this this thread needs is an FOA. Oh wait FOA is the dead name. What this thread needs is NOFO.

ElderLez, at r248 yep, I am the researcher. EPIC does have the capacity to integrate data from different systems into one data set, however, most hospital risk managers wouldn't go for it because they can't share patient information, even with other hospitals, without individual patient consent. However, many states have HIEs (health information exchanges) where doctors can access patient medical records for patient they share with another hospital system. But even those have limitations. They may not have all the data variables, a lot of large, hospital systems don't subscribe to them because they're so large that they can make internal referrals and already have access to their own patient data so they don't need to get it from another doctor (because they're not referring their patients to other doctors).

And I have worked with an HIE, and again, very incomplete data, limited data variables, skewed towards smaller hospitals.

I like your ideas. But I think the best thing to do would be to create a large, prospective observational cohort. Create a study, enroll young participants, and follow them for years.. There would be no arms of treated versus untreated, but you could look at outcomes and get information about what characteristics are associated with transitioning and halting transitioning. But it will be super hard. Because the population is so small, and you need a huge number of participants to have the statistical power to detect significant differences if there were very small differences in outcomes between groups.

And I guess ultimately, I think survey data is the most feasible option.

Just an example, but the prep trials in women couldn't be done in the US, because the incidence of HIV is so low that they couldn't recruit enough women to conduct a study. And then they conducted the studies in sub-Saharan Africa, where the incidence is high, but access to HIV care was low. And the two major studies in women taking prep were both halted for futility. I think it was for one of two reasons: a lot of women enroll in trials simply because it's their only access to healthcare, and they're being told they're getting a medication that we don't know if it works, and they could have a placebo. So they go in for the care and the pills go in the trash. Or, they have a spouse or a sibling or a friend who has HIV, but doesn't have care, and they're being told these are the same drugs that are used for treatment. So they enroll in the trial, then give the drugs to their HIV positive loved one. That's called diversion. I think prep works in women, but it didn't work in those trials, because there were too many incentives for women not to take them.

It would be nice if DL could go a whole day with no mention of Trans or MM/BRF. Both topics are becoming tedious.

R250, I completely agree with you, and I'm half the posts in this thread! It's exhausting, but I hate seeing all the anti-trans hate go unchallenged and terrible misinformation spread. I would love not to talk about this for a day. So please ask the anti-transers to give it a rest.

Maybe we should start a "no trans posts Wednesdays". Like a no meeting Fridays?

[quote]I completely agree with you, and I'm half the posts in this thread! It's exhausting, but I hate seeing all the anti-trans hate go unchallenged and terrible misinformation spread.

As you spread misinformation about ex-gay calling it a hoax, etc? Or transracials, transhandicapps? Transmarried? You stigmatize these groups just as much as the “anti-trans” l groups. I’m in favor of all of them, I will not stigmatize any if them, especially ex-gays who get the most hate and mockery.

Sorry for typos^.

Dee, the LGB community appreciates your support all these years. Don't pay attention to the hetero men in dresses, barging their way into girls dressing rooms, etc. who have hijacked the LGB community.

R254 you are aware Dee Snyder is a hetero man (occasionally) in a dress?

Yes to make the hypocrites tremble in fear, which he did very well in the 80s. Not to gain access to girls locker rooms, dressing rooms and showers.

So what R255.

R225, does the same apply to a 12 year old who believes they were meant to be blind and are wrongly sighted? Should they be allowed to have their eyeballs removed to fit what they are imagining their "real" bodies are supposed to be?

And, why can't a white person choose to be black if they feel like that's what they really are on the inside? If one can choose to change something so deeply and inherently biological that it is literally based on an entire chromosome pair, then surely you would have to agree that something that is determined solely by a couple little genes that determine melanin production should be even more malleable in its determinism, right?

Is age a concrete reality to you? Species?

Trans ideology (almost a religion at this point) makes no sense at all and cannot be defended by its supporters when faced with even the most simple of questions.

R255, are you aware it’s impossible to change sex?

R251 is doing God’s work by making sure toddlers can begin their transition. Yassss!

Well, toddler boys that like Barbie, R260.

I am SO lucky and fortunate to not be the feminine boy today I was back in the 80s and 90s.

R261 and little girls that like trucks! We have to help them understand that they’re TRAPPED IN THE WRONG BODY! They’re meant to be straight Frankensteins, no gays & lesbians makes everyone feel safer, right?!

That’s exactly it, R263. Protecting children from the gay boogie man.

[quote][R251] is doing God’s work by making sure toddlers can begin their transition. Yassss!

No, r260, clearly I want them to go in and do sex reassignment on fetuses in utero. Anything less than that is a human rights violation. 🙄

And you obviously want to make them wait until they're 40 so that they're easily identifiable as transgender and you can more easily spot them so you can make fun of them in public.

[quote] easily identifiable as transgender

r265 = transphobe

I got the notification that you posted at me R266, but I have you on ignore it, so I can't see it or respond. Sorry.

Off topic but Mack Beggs is back! Remember, the bio girl who transitioned but they wouldn't let Mack play with the boys H.S. wrestling team?

Mack has accepted a former UFC fighter's challenge to fight telling him 'I'm going to f--- you up'.

But isn't Dee's opinion just part of the mainstream? The Washington Post recently did a poll and found out just how out of step the newspaper is with the average American.

The Washington Post-KFF poll, which asked 1,338 U.S. adults whether they felt trans women and girls should be allowed to compete against other women and girls, found that the vast majority of Americans reject the idea of including males in women’s sports.

Specifically, 62 percent opposed allowing trans athletes in youth sports, 66 percent opposed trans inclusion in high school sports, and 65 percent opposed trans inclusion in college and professional sports.

The poll also found significant opposition to gender-affirming medical care for children and teens. Nearly 7 in 10 adults said they oppose allowing children ages 10 to 14 access to medication that stops the body from going through puberty, and nearly 6 in 10 oppose giving 15- to 17-year-olds access to hormone treatments.

The trans movement is losing the battle of public opinion. The more people learn about transgenderism the less they support it.

The democratic party needs to lose the trannie cause. It is turning off most voters, especially women.

[quote] I think it was smart for him to respond. He said the San Francisco pride organizers gave him the boot, but they claim it was a mutual decision, and they had a lovely educational conversation. I believe him over them.

Of course they lied. The trans community at every level lies. That's all they have - lies. Now that they have so much money they can commission survey after survey and buy all the experts they want to fill the propaganda coffers.

No one should be supporting this utter nonsense.

R270, it's too late for the Democrats to back away now.

Just look at Biden. He had a transgender in his cabinet proclaiming him to be the first woman something or other for the past 4 years.

Biden also appeared with Dylan Mulvaney. You know that will be in Republican campaign videos! Just like with Bud Light it's impossible for the Dems to disassociate now.

R272, I suppose you're right but they did this to themselves. Were there no same people to say Do Not Do This?

Throwing women under the bus as a whole and at every level and then pretending you care about abortion is the height of hypocrisy.

R273, the left has pretty much had control of most of the media and entertainment industries for years. Except for Fox News, of course. This led the left to believe that transgenders were more accepted than they actually are.

But it has all been a mirage. Support for transgenders is dropping because it was never solid to begin with and now with increasing understanding of and experience with transgenderism the public resistance just continues to grow.

I do not have a problem with transgender people whatsoever and I believe that most Americans do not have a problem with transgender people. My issue is with puberty blockers and hormones for minors. A lot of those kids are just fucking gay and they need time and space to learn to accept themselves in their own skin. I'm not saying that is the case for all kids who believe they are transgender. But the numbers are high enough that I will NEVER support the argument that they represent an acceptable level of collateral damage, only the flimsy ass logic that blocking puberty or inducing a "cross-sex puberty" (whatever the fuck that is) is maybe, possibly going to prevent kids with genuine dysmorphia from suiciding themselves. No. Fuck that. I'm not willing to sacrifice one fucking gay child, period. And yes, I care more about the gay kids than the trans kids, but I also think the trans kids are probably better off with psychological care enough. Especially if they are threatening suicide unless they get some puberty blockers, for christsakes. This shit is madness.

If you are an adult then live you life. I love you and support you no matter what your identity is. But leave the fucking kids alone.

[quote]But the numbers are high enough that I will NEVER support the argument that they represent an acceptable level of collateral damage, only the flimsy ass logic that blocking puberty or inducing a "cross-sex puberty" (whatever the fuck that is) is maybe, possibly going to prevent kids with genuine dysmorphia from suiciding themselves. No. Fuck that. I'm not willing to sacrifice one fucking gay child, period

W-o-w. You said out loud you'd prefer a child die than be trans. You can't say that after "I do not have a problem with transgender people whatsoever" and expect to be taken seriously. You're a monster.

Oh shut the fuck up, propagandist. You know full well that’s not what I said. This is your whole problem in this debate, you can’t actually have a discussion without resorting to extreme hyperbole and putting words in other peoples mouth that they have an actually said. You better change your tactics, because your current approach is not working out too well for your point of view. You’re losing. And the reason you’re losing is because you’re a dishonest asshole.

[quote] You said out loud you'd prefer a child die than be trans

More ridiculous trans lies. The infrequent instances are not happening because they cannot get puberty blockers or cross sex hormones or binders or whatevers.

The issue is also the mental health of these kids apart from any supposed gender dysphoria. What will help that? Real serious mental health counseling but the trans have declared that is "conversion" therapy unless it absolutely "affirms" the beliefs and feelings of a CHILD. They can't even probe where these feelings and beliefs came from. Well without that real probing and questioning there is no real therapy.

When I was young, one of my closest friends was a trans woman in New Orleans. She was the most popular, nicest, funniest person in the whole New Orleans gay scene in the 90s. She WAS the scene. And not only was she popular nice and funny, she was smart! (But loved to play dumb because that was her sense of humor). Her main job was as a a chef at a large restaurant, but she also taught and interpreted sign language.

Everywhere we went, people would drive by and scream out their cars "I love you!" because she was so popular and they all knew her name.

And even though I wasn't popular, being her friend made ME feel special. I was friends with the most popular person around. She didn't know all of their names, but I could sit and watch a movie at home with her and drink beer. I was one of the chosen ones, the ones lucky enough to be her real friend. (And once, she intentionally got me drunk enough and sent me home with a hot police officer. She kept buying drinks for us until she finally told us to leave, and we went back to my place!)

One night I drunkenly asked her "how did you know that you're trans?" And she very kindly replied "well, probably the same way, you knew that you were gay." And I asked her when she first knew, and she said she couldn't remember a time before she knew. She knew since she was a child

It was like a lightbulb went off over my head. "Oh. Of course."

I moved away and she died within two years of the last time I saw her. And because this was before cell phones had cameras, the only picture I have of her is very low resolution, and came from her obituary. I have that photo saved in my phone still. And I still get sad and miss her.

So I don't have any respect for the folks who are siding with Republicans and claiming that children can't be trans or hate trans people in general. Those are people that I could never be friends with.

And if anyone remembers this quote from Bianca Del Rio on drag race, I'm 99% sure it's about her. And anyone who hung out in gay bars in New Orleans in the 90s probably knows exactly who I'm talking about.

R277, I didn't have to put words in your mouth, I posted a quote that you wrote. Those were your words.

And calling me a propagandist and a dishonest asshole isn't supporting your argument. They're just exposing that you're full of rage and, like you said, you'd accept a kid committing suicide over being cared for as a trans person.

So, no. I'm not losing. Because I've remained rational while you have gone off as a psychopath. You've already lost and you don't even know it.

How many "trans" kids kill themselves because they can't get access to hormones or those life saving surgeries ?

Is it millions per year like the murder rate of black transwomen ?

[quote]How many "trans" kids kill themselves because they can't get access to hormones or those life saving surgeries ?

What do you care? You don't believe kids can be trans which is obvious by your use of "trans" kids. You don't believe there are trans kids so no matter what the number is, to you it will always be zero.

[quote]Is it millions per year like the murder rate of black transwomen ?

Again, why do you care? You obviously don't or you wouldn't exaggerate that by claiming "millions" of black transwomen are killled.

You're just trolling. Troll along. Also hiding your posts now, so adieu!

r282 seems to be stupid. Just a hunch.

Tangent, but PrEP researcher what do you think about the verdict yesterday on the patent infringement case siding with Gilead?

Dee is surprised because the rage usually goes against women who dare to say anything that might be considered not completely supportive.

For a bunch of males who aspire to be a woman, Ts seems to be really misogynistic and very keen to oppress them and try to intimidate them. JK Rowling was one of the few who refused to apologize for what she said, and she is being persecuted as hateful , bigot "Karen". But what she said was nothing compared to Dee or Musk or other men.

Even the T supporters here always shows their disdain for women, just give them time.

Because Ts and T supporters will never be real women. They have to chop and mutilate and trowel on the makeup and maybe, MAYBE they can pass as a woman in the right light.

It infuriates them that women are women without trying.

[quote]You've already lost and you don't even know it.

More psychobabble nonsense. To be perfectly clear: You represent the Walter Freedman side of this debate. I am happy to be on the right side of history.

And history will be decided much sooner than later.

[quote]So I don't have any respect for the folks who are siding with Republicans and claiming that children can't be trans or hate trans people in general.

First of all, your story has nothing to do with the people we are talking about. We are talking about kids, not your trans mom on the gay scene in New Orleans back in the day.

Second of all, I do not hate trans people and I have said that many times. I understand that you need to lean hard into that rhetoric, but on my own behalf and on behalf of others on this thread, I want to be clear: It is entirely possible to like and respect trans people while opposing puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones for minors. This is the majority perspective and it is completely reasonable.

If there was a pill that would turn a man into a woman or vice versa, the trans would call it erasure. They would rise up against the oppressor trying to force the nonexistence of trans people upon the trans community. There would be an anti-trans-erasure movement. They would formally negate their main current argument, that they are really men or women and there is no difference between them and actual men and women all in the name of maintaining attention.

Do you know why they wouldn't be happy that their greatest wishes came true and they could actually easily change sex? Because they wouldn't get any attention for it. Trans is a movement of attention-seeking beta male misogynists supported by stupid women.

(And, of course, the world would end up 80% male and real women would end up as chattel treated like the street dregs in India are treated every day or just tied to beds used as birthing machines.)

R226: Linguistically insecure, much?

R279, I was roofied & sexually assaulted by a transwoman who was a close family friend.

When I came to & realized what was going on, I decided that I would never consider a man a woman ever again.

It’s the only time I’d ever been sexually assaulted because I know how to avoid dangerous situations.

Hats off to the T predators…you are ingenious. Literally getting away with sex crimes in plain view. 😕

[quote] My second question is always "do the benefits outweigh the risks" and again, they seem to believe they do.

They don’t outweigh the risks. Certainly not to teenage girls who enter menopause when they have hysterectomies.

Always wonder about creatures like this ^^^^

Thread is over two years old. How did it even FIND the thread to reply?

Weirdly, I was searching for neurolinguistic programming (NLP) on DL and this thread came up, and I started reading the whole thing. I didn’t see how old it was