"Affected Accents" —Double Standard

I don't think there is a double standard if the person can pass for what they want to become. The problem is when someone affects a BAD accent, like Madonna and Phylicia Rashad do. They both wanted to sound "fancy" rather than of a specific locale.

But Andrew Sullivan used to sound like the Artful Dodger in the Eighties, and then he got rid of his Essex accent and sounded like an American because he's got a great ear and actor's training.

If there's anyone great lesson of our species, is that we try to survive, no matter what. We do that by adaptations to our environment that may be advantageous in one way or another.

I have made a conscious decision to change my accent. I don't consider it losing part of myself just a step further to who I shall be.

R1 Why were the accents Madonna and Phylicia used considered "bad" accents though? They were more or less a modified transatlantic accent which only 30-years prior was considered to be proper elocution in the same way that the flat, could-be-from-anywhere-and-nowhere newscaster accent came to be known post-mid century. Both are designed to convey the "idea" of elevated class and/or education because they disguise regional (i.e. working class) speaking styles. Both are an affect. Both are a "put-on" if used for those purposes.

^ *anywhere-and-nowhere

I recall reading that James Best, a truly wonderful and versatile actor AND acting coach, essentially got pigeonholed because he could not shake his heavy twangy native West Virginia (IIRC) accent.

Also, please don't get me wrong—I know this isn't the only reason Madonna was/is considered a bit psycho and a lot narcissistic. She's just one of the immediate contemporary examples that came to mind, particularly because she's been so often mocked for it.

R5 Oh, absolutely. Rosie Perez and Fran Drescher are two other examples.

James Best played Sheriff Roscoe P. Coltrane on The Dukes of Hazzard did he not? He was in many significant shows and films before that and was talented.

This is first I’m hearing about Phycilia Rashad’s supposed accent. She grew up in a cosmopolitan household with Harlem Renaissance type parents. She grew up in Houston and Mexico and learned both English and Spanish as a young child.

The Brooklyn accent is perfectly fine and professional and sexy. For one the New York accent doesn’t implore as much grammatical errors as the Southern or Midwest accent or the lazy tongue or vocal fry of SoCal. Perhaps only the mid Atlantic accent is a bit more refined. But New Yorkers speak well and articulate even if they don’t have a big vocabulary. It’s the reason why black New Yorkers who speak AAVE when they code switch sound so much than their southern black counterparts.

R9 Oh, I for one think she has a beautiful and dignified speaking voice, but she's MANY times been mocked here for her allegedly high falutin "accent". I can't help wonder if that has anything to do with her being black (a bit of the old "who does she think she's fooling?"). Although James Earl Jones' speaking voice doesn't seem to be targeted in the same way, so maybe it's something else?

R10, so much more what than their Southern black counterparts?

R11 🤔 Interesting. I think she must sound like when elders gays were young, that style of speaking was called uppity black talk.

R12 so much better. Left out the word better. Ughh. That’s just my opinion however.

[quote] she's MANY times been mocked here for her allegedly high falutin "accent".… Although James Earl Jones' speaking voice doesn't seem to be targeted in the same way, so maybe it's something else?

Speaking of Phylicia Rashad and James Earl Jones, the video below shows her discussing her “craft” while a befuddled James Earl Jones looks on. You can see his is mentally rolling his eyes at her. We had an entire thread about this video on DL.

R15 Yes, lol. I remember the thread well.

For what it's worth, I mentally roll my eyes just about anytime an actor discusses their "craft.

R15 oh my why isn’t this chica a DL icon. Good lawd that was most pretentious piece of drivel beautifully executed with flawless hair. Phylicia Rashaad was quite underrated as Beauty in her youth. She’s acknowledged as pretty but never cited as one of the great beauties in the industry. She was and truly aged beautifully.

R17 It’s great when actors talk about their craft. I’m an aspiring one but her semi word salad and take on theater one would think it was essential as water to life on Earth. This woman just exudes class. she wins even when you think about it and you realize it doesn’t really make sense.

R13 Black girlfriends of mine refer to it as the "grande dame" voice.

The 2008 thread about that video with Phylicia Rashad and James Earl Jones is linked below. Some choice quotes from that thread:

[quote] Poor James Earl Jones -- sitting there watching Phylicia pontificate,looking like he's about to drool.

[quote] I can't tell if James Earl Jones is stunned or amused by her behavior.

[quote] You know James Earl Jones was like "BITCH?! WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?"

[quote] there is something so satisfyingly silly about that clip of her prattling on and saying such empty pieties with James Earl Jones looking so dazed and out of it in the background.

[quote] James Earl Jones is on autopilot.

[quote] Poor James Earl Jones - he's such a wonderful actor and for him to be stuck sitting next to that pontificating, pretentious cunt - eww.

[quote] James Earl Jones' expression is priceless. I just wish, when she was done, he'd have said, "Bitch, PLEASE!" in his Darth Vader voice.

[quote] I can't stop watching James Earl Jones' face. Somebody stop me.

Debbie Allen, Phylicia’s choreographer sister, doesn’t have this “grande dame” voice.

I always like Phylicia until she defended Bill Cosby a few years back in the face of overwhelming evidence he had drugged, raped, and abused numerous women on numerous occasions.

I don't mind actresses (particularly mature ones) putting on a bit of grandeur. It's a long tradition: look at Hepburn or Bette Davis or Crawford in their prime. People mocked Kathleen Turner for doing the same, but it worked for her. Everything about Turner was a bit larger than life.

Speaking of "downwardly mobile" affectations: George Clooney worked on a movie with Ryan Gosling some years back. It was not good chemistry: they took an almost instant dislike to one another and the movie was a flop.

Among lots of other issues, Clooney mocked Gosling's affected "New Yawk guy" speaking, ie, "This is guy is from a French-Canadian family in Ontario. Why does he sound like something out of a Martin Scorsese movie?"

Finally, had to watch the video my comment. Oh Dear. Obviously taking her self way too serious.

R24, Gosling is French-Canadian or Clooney just thought he was?

R22 I also noticed that Leah Remini's sisters and mother (who were interviewed on her Scientology show) don't even remotely share the same heavy Brooklyn accent that she speaks with, and that when she was interviewing them, she toned hers down quite a bit.

Sometimes it's what someone says or how he or she e-nun-ci-ates and pauses. Dramatically.

I've heard James Lipton be every bit as "high falutin" as Rashad in what he says, if a little less ridiculous for the absence of crazy protracted enunciation.

Rashad has a lovely voice, I think, and no particularly specific accent. When she speaks more or less normally, let's say, I enjoy listening for the quality of her voice. But when she instructs... I can feel some of James Earl Jones' pain. Accent, though, that's more Madonna trying to sounded Cockney brat or jaded posh British girl.

I give a lot of leeway because some people simply pick up on what they hear and soon enough the pronunciation of a word shifts in whole or part (in the case of an American transplanted to the UK, for instance); or they simply start making a hash of one two or more languages they know depending on where they are and who they are around. It's not always a conscious decision to grasp for a word you know perfectly well in your first language but which fleeting escapes you as your mind jumps back and forth between languages. Cognates get pronounced ad they would in another language simply by mistake - maybe it sounds odd but there's no reason anyone shouldn't be able to figure it out if they listen with the least care. It's Hilaria Baldwin's cucumber problem, only real not affected. But it's not the end if the world. Accents creep in and they change or get smoothed over in time

per IMDB:

Born Ryan Thomas Gosling on November 12, 1980, in London, Ontario, Canada, he is the son of Donna (Wilson), a secretary, and Thomas Ray Gosling, a traveling salesman. Ryan was the second of their two children, with an older sister, Mandi. His ancestry is French-Canadian, as well as English, Scottish, and Irish.

The same goes for Jennifer Lopez's sisters, who do have a hint of a slightly lingering Bronx accent, but don't at all have her Puerto-Rican "Jenny from the block" speaking voice.

I miss Joe Mantegna's original Chicago/Cicero accent. I mean, I get it, he probably got pigeonholed into a lot of certain character archetypes because of it, but every time I hear him now he just seems completely neutered and bland.

Madonna's quasi-Brit accent wasn't merely affected, it was stunningly, laughingly BAD.

Like Lina Lamont in SINGING IN THE RAIN bad, but without Jean Hagen's knowing humor.

R32 Oh, the accent she took on post-Guy–yeah, that was...a lot. But I do try to keep in mind that she was living in the UK for years and married to a Brit. Some people are just more impressionable in that way with accents—quicker to mirror. I was more speaking to the one that she used in the 80's.

R24 That’s what happens when actors obsess over a filmmaker or certain style of film, in this case NYC mafioso films and associate all those aesthetics and styles with great dramatic acting. I think I noticed it in one of his films. I just thought he might be from NYC metro area. I learned later he was Canadian. I just know he’s not a great actor but a solid one. There is something disingenuous about his execution. I will say he is one of more palatable actors of his peer group. Never pimped his relationship or acted completely insufferable on social media.

Reading the comments on YouTube from the video, the theater students and actors really connect to her message. So maybe she’s onto something. Perhaps it is only pretentious if not in that community.

R24 I'm not so sure it wasn't a wise choice of his. Can you imagine how doofy Ryan Gosling would sound with a hoser Ontario accent? That slight tough guy "New Yawk" affect gives him the air of masculinity he probably wouldn't naturally possess otherwise. He'd just be a bit too dorky without it.

I grew up with a strong regional accent and lost it when I started working in an office environment in a big city. People were so struck by my accent that they would mock it to my face. I’d make a statement and they’d repeat it over and over doing what was usually a very bad, ham-fisted imitation of whatever I said. It got old fast. One of my siblings who worked in the corporate world did the same thing — lost it over time. Another stayed in our hometown and kept his. I married someone who grew up near me and when we’re alone the heavy accents come back. I’m not trying to sound fancy when I drop the accent. I’m just not wanting to be ridiculed.

R37 OP here, and I experienced the same. Even though there are some that subjectively consider a Brooklyn accent sexy or endearing, I was constantly teased about it when I moved to Chicago 13-years ago. It was usually affectionate teasing, but it got old fast. I just wanted to be able to say something without friends or coworkers repeating back a word or phrase and laughing about how "cute" or "funny" it sounds. It's still othering, and it makes you terribly self-conscious.

R33, Madonna was so charming in her youth.

R38 That’s it exactly.

Seth Effrican affecting a posh British accent.

The difference OP, is someone who has a natural, regional accent often LOSES it if he or she goes to college somewhere else (that happened to me) or moves somewhere else while still fairly young. Or just over time. Or one may purposely try to lose it to sound more like one's surrounding.

Putting on an accent ON PURPOSE is what AFFECTED is. Exhibit A: Madonna.

OP/R37, what was your original accent?

R38, the Chicagoans have no room to mock you. The characteristic Chicago accent (“dallah” for “dollar”) is horrid.

[quote] [R1] Why were the accents Madonna and Phylicia used considered "bad" accents though? They were more or less a modified transatlantic accent which only 30-years prior was considered to be proper elocution in the same way that the flat, could-be-from-anywhere-and-now - here newscaster accent came to be known post-mid century.

30 years prior? That's just not true.

R43 Boston.

OP/R37, I just reread your OP and noticed that you said you had a Brooklyn accent.

R43 I was born on Long Island, moved to Brooklyn (Bensonhurst and later Crown Heights) in kindergarten, then moved to Chicago for grad school at 22. Both parents are native Brooklynites with fairly heavy, typical Jewish New York accents. Half of my siblings who remained on the East Coast retained their accents, and the other half (myself, a sister who now lives in San Francisco, and a brother who now lives in Seattle) actively toned theirs down.

Eh, most Chicagoans who live in Chicago proper don't at all have that stereotypical flattened vowel "Chicaaago" accent. That would be southwest suburban ChicagoLAND and Cicero natives. Mayyybe a few Polish/Irish cop and firefighter types from Bridgeport, but even they are few and far between these days. Any that do live in the city proper that have that accent are likely transplants from said suburbs or elsewhere in the Midwest.

“Oh Howard, I don’t have time for your drama. I just want to be luxurious!”

R44 30-years prior to when Madonna and Phylicia began sporting theirs, which was the late 70's for Phylicia and early 80's for Madonna. The transatlantic accent was absolutely still being used by many in the public eye in the 50's.

Whoops R43, thought you were asking me what my original accent was!

R47, the Lonk Guyland accent is not attractive either especially their double t sounds (“buh-un” for “button”). Brooklynese at least has some “heritage” appeal.

^Very much agreed. Luckily we weren't there long enough for it imprint.

R47, I spent quite a bit of time in Chicago for work in the early 2000s, and then the characteristic Chicago accent was still quite common. I’ve been there sporadically since then so wasn’t aware it wasn’t that prevalent now.

R53 Huh. Interesting. What part of Chicago did you stay in? I've been here since 2010 and could have counted on one hand the number of times I encountered it. Perhaps it was the crowd I was surrounded with back then though, which was mostly Logan Square/Pilsen SAIC MFA's and Columbia film students.

George Clooney has a lot of balls calling someone out over their accent when his entire persona is fake. I say that as a fan.

I’m surprised he’s French-Canadian. “Gosling” as a last name wouldn’t suggest French background, and he’s otherwise so white bread. I did think there might be some non-Anglo or non-Northern European ancestry to him which is why I asked about his ethnicity on one of the Barbie threads.

[quote] Reading the comments on YouTube from the video, the theater students and actors really connect to her message. So maybe she’s onto something. Perhaps it is only pretentious if not in that community.

Oliver Hernandez, one of the commenters on the YouTube video, must be a Datalounger. He wrote eight years ago:

[quote] this never gets old.

OP how old are you? If we fuck will you say dirty slurs to me in your Brooklyn accent.

A cawfee enema a day keeps the schmeckle kaka away.

Charlize Theron dropped her South African accent to become a California girl.

Charlize today.

At R60, she doesn’t sound like a California girl. She also doesn’t sound like she’s trying to sound like a Calif. girl.

R10

implore as much grammatical errors

*as many grammatical errors*

Oh, Dear.

"For one the New York accent doesn’t implore as much grammatical errors..."

lolz

"For one the New York accent doesn’t implore as much grammatical errors..."

lolz

Ees no fair, the people should no be, how you say, tissed for the way they spika.

R63, lol. Forgive my sins.

R64/65 why da fuck you post your shit twice. You some type of tourettes having cunt?

I lived with my aunt's family in a town near Pasadena for a while when I was growing up. I had a Boston accent and I was not made fun of, I was always told by girls I went to school with that it was sexy.

Johnny Depp used to speak normally without that fake English accent.

This isn't about the women . .

Another example of how New Yorkers think they are so much smarter than others are. With supporting evidence from their own post, r68.

Then see your r68 post.

Phylicia Rashad does not speak fluent Spanish. She understands it but she has probably been away from it so long she forgot how to speak it. It happens.

Southerners who move elsewhere work hard to lose their accents if they think it will impede their progress in their chosen professions. I speak with the standard American accent of television. I was raised in a part of the west that has no discernable regional accent. I lived for a long time in NYC and then in the deep South. I could do a better job imitating a southern accent than a New York accent, but I never tried to acquire an accent that was not my own. In short bursts, I can imitate a British accent, but I wouldn't be able to sustain it without a lot of practice. In my accent, Mary, merry, and marry are all pronounced identically. I can hear people with different accents differentiating between them, but never felt it was important to do so myself. MARY!

[quote]In my accent, Mary, merry, and marry are all pronounced identically.

Do they rhyme with fairy, sherry, or clary?

Maybe this short will answer that question.

I'm British and we do a lot of code-switching here. I grew up in SE London and I'd speak in a completely different dialect at school than I would at home with my parents. I'll speak with a different accent with my friends than I would at a job interview.

I've noticed Americans tend to pick up the British accent and certain Britishisms very easily - I've worked with a few whose American accents became quite tempered within weeks. It's pretty natural. Not quite to Madonna's extent, but I think she was taking the piss.

Luke Evans puts the Welsh accent on a lot more when he's doing British TV interviews.

And Lily Allen started her music career trying to pretend she wasn't a posho twat nepo baby with her mockney accent. Now she's doing serious acting she's gone back to Severe Posh levels of accentage.

R78 We have a love/hate relationship with regional accents in the UK. RP is pretty much dead apart from the odd newsreader or stage actor. Regional accents are loved on TV. But at the same time there was a massive fuss over a BBC sports presenter having a very distinct London accent recently. I can't remember her name as I'm not a huge sports fan but it made headlines.

There can be a lot of charm in regionalisms. There are so many cute Southern sayings that just don't have nearly as much charm if spoken without a Southern accent. The problem is intelligibility. Standard accents that can be understood everywhere are best for TV. Very local accent with lots of specific slang and eccentric pronunciations can be very fun and might make some situations more real. A scene filmed near St. Paul's in London with all the actors speaking RP would be odd indeed, as would a mafia film set in Brooklyn but where all the actors sounded as though they were reared in Los Angeles. On the other hand, films about lawyers or other professions don't need to have the actors speaking in street language.

(Talking about the US here. UK accents are a whole different thing.) I don’t think there’s a double standard. I think the expectation is that people in prominent roles or professional positions will have a more-or-less neutral “General American” accent. If you move toward that from a strong regional accent, then it’s not just OK, it’s expected. If you move away from the General American accent and attempt an old-fashioned mid-Atlantic accent or blatantly fake accent (British or regional American), then people will mock you and say you’re pretentious or a poseur.

Although it’s not as obvious here as in Britain, there are class associations with accents. Strong regional accents are usually a marker of working-class status, especially in post-Boomer generations. Americans don’t think there’s anything wrong with aspiring to appear middle-class and “bettering yourself”. It’s when people try to seem upper class, despite coming from a very ordinary background, that we point and laugh. Or when they move to Texas suddenly affect a Texas accent that fools no one (at least, no one from Texas).

TL;DR: Moving from a working-class or regional accent to a neutral, middle-class, "newscaster" non-accent: OK. Moving from unaccented American English to something regional, exotic or ultra-posh to impress people: Laughable.

[quote]But at the same time there was a massive fuss over a BBC sports presenter having a very distinct London accent recently. I can't remember her name as I'm not a huge sports fan but it made headlines.

It wasn't a massive fuss, just an old man who used to be important complaining on Twitter and that went viral. Hardly anyone defended him.

Alex Scott (a Black/Jewish occasional lesbian) responded in style when she opened the Olympics show after the criticism.

Mr. Black can fuck himself. Anyone who has read Chaucer knows that the original ending of the progressive English verb froms was not "ing", it was "en" and "on"

And smale foweles maken melodye, That slepen al the nyght with open ye, So priketh hem Natúre in hir corages, Thanne longen folk to goon on pilgrimages,

And he said she's not pronouncing her "g's" but no English speaker in the entire world pronounces the g at the end of a verb. It's just there to remind them to say "een", instead of 'in".

What became "proper" English pronunciation was just the affected speech of a small number of people who had money and influence and others around them began to imitate their vowels and endings. There is nothing "correct" about it. Again, it's a matter of intelligibility - but people can certainly understand Ms. Scott, even if they pronounce their endings differently.

Links to YouTube shorts don't work on this site, R80.

I don't mind it so much if someone attempts to lose certain aspects of their accent over time. But when people attempt to adopt the accent of another country it's toe-curlingly cringey.

Madonna is a case in point that many have mentioned above. Another is the awful Andy Ngo who was born in Portland, Oregon yet moved to London recently (ostensibly for his safety) and now has a really fake 'English' twang to his accent. Adults who emigrate to another country rarely change their accent to that degree naturally, because accents tend to be fully formed by early adulthood and, even when slight changes do occur, they take place over many years - especially if the immigrant has a spouse, children and work colleagues who all speak with a different accent.

However, Ngo moved here quite recently and - due to the nature of his occupation and the fact he's terminally online - I find it unlikely that he converses with English people day in, day out. So his current accent is clearly affected and makes him seem like an even bigger arsehole than he already was.

[quote] And he said she's not pronouncing her "g's" but no English speaker in the entire world pronounces the g at the end of a verb. It's just there to remind them to say "een", instead of 'in".

There are English regional accents where ‘running’ is pronounced run-nin-guh with the G emphasised.

There are tons of people in the South who exaggerate their accents- Southern "society" is a weird thing. Every Carolina Cup, there's some drunken girl screaming "AHHHH WAWANNNNT MAH DAHDDDDY" after she gets caught banging in a horse stall.

Southerners (U.S.) can have a great facility for adjusting up and down their Southern accents for the occasion and company, or simply to make a joke better, or to add, by various degree, layers of meaning or innuendo or incredulity.

Some posh Southerners have just a touch of softness to the edges of certain words for one audience but can sound elite or very down home or peppered with a backwater sound in another situation.

The awareness of their own accent and the agility in dialing it up and down is something I particularly like. There's nothing phony about it, just a hyper-awareness and talent for how they sound.

[quote]no English speaker in the entire world pronounces the g at the end of a verb. It's just there to remind them to say "een", instead of 'in".

What are you talking about? Where I live no one pronounces ing as "een." They pronounce the g or they don't, but many do pronounce the "ng" sound.

[quote] I speak with the standard American accent of television.... In my accent, Mary, merry, and marry are all pronounced identically....

If you pronounce Mary, merry, and marry identically, then, IMO, you don't speak with the standard American accent of television.

Personally, regional dialects are really musical and sexy and fascinating to my ear, and it saddens me that grammar school from age 11 essentially removed most traces of my local accent from childhood, so I sound like a bland Home Counties Tory when I speak. I actually try consciously to speak more like a local or like someone of my national/regional background when I remember. My father & sister & cousins all still have the local accent to varying degrees, so I can still copy theirs while they're in my life, but brutally it's not entirely natural for me to speak that way anymore.

One of the reasons I'm such a close follower of EPL football is because of the array of strong and broad working-class Brit accents one hears from the players & managers & pundits. It's a lovely variety and palette, one which really tickles my frontal lobes in the most pleasurable way (the effect that some have with ASMR). One of the best things left about Britain is our linguistic richness.

[quote] Alex Scott (a Black/Jewish occasional lesbian)

on the floor haha

(she is a full lesbian though, just in denial for religious reasons)

People who affect a working-class or "authentic" accent are irritating in their own way, just like those who affect a supposedly upper-class one.

Tina Turner owns this thread.

I don't know what the fuck that accent is, but it sure as hell ain't from Nutbush, Tennessee.

I never really thought about Tina Turner, but yeah. The way she talks sounds like the preamble (long version) of "Proud Mary." ("We nevah, evah ... do nothing nice ...) Except, she would probably say "anything." But the cadence is the same.

Haha! You said “Nutbush”.

R90, I agree with you, but there is some regional variation. Easterners still mostly observe a marry-Mary distinction. Westerners less so, regardless of their educational background. What's really grating is when they close down on the vowel so that "marry" becomes "meery".

[quote] no English speaker in the entire world pronounces the g at the end of a verb. It's just there to remind them to say "een", instead of 'in".

R89, the "-ing" ending is pronounced with an "ng" sound. It is neither an "n" nor a "g". It's a sound unto itself, the same sound as at the end of "sing" or "thing". Pronouncing "ing" as "een" - as in "I'm runneen errands and doeen some shoppeen" - sounds ignorant or as if the speaker has a speech impediment.

Dropping the g at the ends of -ing vowels is, in American English, a sign of poor education or rural background unless it's done on purpose, with humor. That's why some members of the so-called bear community like to affect this pronunciation - they think it sounds manly and working class, when in fact it just sounds stupid.

R87/R88 I've often wondered whether Clark Duke plays up or exaggerates his Southern accent to seem more charming and to stand out, considering he isn't exactly leading-man material aesthetically. It's what I'd do if I were in his position and profession.

Likewise, sports commentator Jim Ross, who is memorable and beloved for all his heavy Southerisms.

Jim Ross in his own frame, for reference:

The difference is blending in vs standing out.

Madonna’s accent came on so quickly it seemed silly.

𝓢𝓸𝓶𝓮 𝓹𝓮𝓸𝓹𝓵𝓮 𝓼𝓲𝓶𝓹𝓵𝔂 𝔀𝓪𝓷𝓽 𝓽𝓸 𝓼𝓹𝓮𝓪𝓴 𝓯𝓪𝓷𝓬𝔂.

I tried to keep my Ozark Appalachian accent because I liked it, and also because it was an easy way to weed out assholes if they immediately assumed I was stupid or made fun of the accent. Over time I lost it, and the few times I went back to Southern Missouri I realized many of them don't speak with the accent anymore, either.

Very few people can do the accent right. No one on "Ozark" ever got it right. Oddly enough our Glenn in "Hillbilly Elegy" did pretty well, but unfortunately she was supposed to be an Ohio Appalachian, not a Southern Appalachian, and there is a difference.

[quote] Unfortunately she was supposed to be an Ohio Appalachian, not a Southern Appalachian, and there is a difference.

R102 Cincy accents are just awful, nasal and flat.

One slightly disconcerting scenario where I don't believe an accent is affected is online gaming. I used to follow an English guy who had an American twang to his accent. People would ask him if he lived in the US and he confirmed he never had. Then it became clear that so much of his socialising was with online gamers in America over a headset that it had influenced his accent.

I thought that was quite sad in a way. Not to have another accent but to get that accent from 'socialising' while sat alone in your bedroom day in, day out.

That is a bit sad, R104. Not to say that acquiring an accent from time spent in backyard U.S. barbeques or down the pub in the U.K. is much "better" a route to a result, but at least it might have some ancillary experiences as well.

That's also seen (or, rather, heard) in people with autism, at least where I'm from. So many of them have an American twang to their English.

R94 and r95 😂 😆. Love you.

There's nothing wrong with online socializing, particularly face-to-face Zoom-type socializing.

Otherwise, I wonder if "accent bleed" is something that will become more frequent as English-speakers are exposed to an increasing variety and quantity of different accents. Already you hear British English words coming from American English speakers because they watch so many British youtubers, etc.

This if for r97 from a English stack discussion on pronunciation of ing by linguists:

"If you are an American, (except for some parts of the East) then you pronounce words like king, ring, and sing just as they appear. Progressive verbs that end in ing, such as running and being, are essentially pronounced een at the end of the word, basically rhyming with seen, mean, lean, etc. There are some dialects of English where the g can barely be heard in progressives, but in contemporary English this is gone. The informal is to pronounce the ing not like een, but like in, thus rhyming with words like sin or fin.

The above statement was disputed in the discussion, but I'm quoting it so show you that many people say it een - and in any case, never pronounce the g s a separate or individual sound. Insead it affects the end of the n sound. (Closes it off at the back of the throat.

When I listened to British speakers pronouncing "running", they used the nasal ng (not a g sound, as in finger, but a closing off of the throat at the end of the n sound). However, the majority of American speakers in the examples I listened to pronounce it exactly as I do "runneen".

I do agree that runnin' is a completely different animal - "runnan" - and to me sounds rural or southern, or as in the British sports broadcaster, denotes a specific non-standard accent.

In the link below, the teacher explains VERY clearly the difference between core words (like sing) from added ing (verb forms that add ing in progessive forms) in his speech, which he describes as Western speech. And he says "een" in the latter. It doesn't sound affected at all to my ears - but then again, it's the way I pronounce it, as a westerner. So I wouldn't say "I will seen this opera aria". I will say, "I will sing this opera aria". But I will say, "tonight I'll be see -een a production of an opera."

Thank you for that, R109

R109, thank you for the detailed description and the video. Side note - that guy is cute but creepy, with the quiet voice, constant hand gestures and extremely careful enunciation. (I know the last is intended to make things easier for non-native speakers, but it really stands out to a native speaker.) Every BDSM dom I've met talks in the same quiet, authoritative voice. I'll bet he's a mean fuck, and I intend that as a compliment.

Anyway, I've been listening (not "listeneen") carefully today on CNN and MSBNC - none of the hosts say "-een". They all say "-ing" for the continuous tense. This is borne out by your video; Daddy Dom explicitly describes the "-een" as bein Western dialect, while "-ing" is General American, the version of American English actors, broadcasters and others who want to avoid sounding regional aspire to.

I will add that, to Eastern ears, the Western marry-merry merge and -een instead of -ing make the speaker sound plebian, just as East Coast regional accents sound working class. I doubt most Westerners care, but someone trying to appeal to general American audience is better off aiming to speak General American, where marry and merry sound different and it's "speaking", not "speakeen".

R111 here, oh dearing myself!

"Plebeian", not "plebian". And typing "bein" instead of "being" was a particularly apt typo.

There's a gap between what people say or believe they are pronouncing and what they are actually pronouncing. In the linked video, the teacher gives explicit instruction on how to pronounce ing in an unstressed syllable. Time after time, in her "slow motion" version of the pronunciation, marked by her air-quote hands, she very clearly uses the nasalized n. When she pronounces the words in "real time". she very clearly says EEN, not the nasalized n - EVERY TIME.

American actors and television personalities many of whom come from California, or places like Colorado, tend to use "western" or "midwestern" accents - very rarely do they use East Coast accents, with the exception of sportscasters. So I disagree with your premise that they would never use een.

Are you a linguist, menluvinguy?

[quote]Dropping the g at the ends of -ing vowels is, in American English, a sign of poor education or rural background

Actually it's very common in Northern New England, where it's not a sign of poor education/rural background.

R115 Is what you're describing a bit like the way the gentleman in this recording pronounces "morning"? I think though I do still hear a very soft -ing in there.

For interested parties: this is actually a VERY cool site, by the way. It's got over 1,600 recorded samples of English language accents and dialects from 135 countries and territories.

R116 No, I was talking more from Boston north through southern New Hampshire to Maine.