Cultural Appropriation

Ask a Muslim whether they care.

Are people going to fast all day too. Anyway it seems stupid and not Catholic.

All the Christians, Jews, and Muslims should just get together and go back to the Stone Age they came from. World's problems solved.

Religious practices should be legally confined to ones home.

You're totally overthinking this.

Bullshit you go to church. Lying ass Greg.

[quote] I belong to a race equity team

Uh, what?

Iftar makes sense in the context of a lengthy difficult fasting period where people break the fast communally. This reinforces the faith community and the faith itself. None of that is done by Catholics doing a one day fast and evening meal. This is what I mean by stupid and it is merely performative. As many anti racist things are by white progressives. Maybe they could do something real like having lectures on Islam.

May I ask what big city this progressive Catholic parish is in?

R6, what's your trouble?

[quote] Uh, what?

What are you asking me?

R8, I agree with what you say.

Boston

Why are they acknowledging Islam if this is a Catholic congregation? Would Muslims oblige and do the same? If not, don’t.

[quote] I belong to a race equity team in my Catholic parish.

This is the worst collection of words I’ve seen in one sentence in a long time.

R13- It requires two headache tablets to read it.

Because, R12, we pray for our neighbors and we also have parishioners who may be in families where more than one faith is observed. It's called being sensitive and loving.

Well it may interest you to know, R13, that I have been selected as Chairgurl of the Committee on Diversity, Equity and Inclusion (DEI) here at the DL. Muriel formed the committee a two months ago. You should come to a meeting sometime -- we're not so bad.

Please travel to Mecca and serve ham from a cart, you obnoxious parasite.

Cultural appropriation is taking something from someone else's culture and presenting it as something of your own. Everything else isn't a cultural appropriation. White people having dreadlocks isn't a cultural appropriation.

My cats breath smells like cat food.

This thread reads trollish

[quote] This is the worst collection of words I’ve seen in one sentence in a long time.

And why is that, R13?

Is it because you don't agree with race equity?

Or because you don't think a church ought to care about racial equity?

Seriously.

The Jews don’t like it when the Fundies do Passover. I’d skip it.

Jesus said I'm going to hell if I'm not am atheist.

[quote] It requires two headache tablets to read it.

Why? I'm really trying to understand.

Greg, master of turning the other cheek.

What is a race equity team? What’s its purpose and goals?

[quote] This thread reads trollish

Well it's not. But your cynicism doesn't disappoint, R20.

[quote]White people having dreadlocks isn't a cultural appropriation.

Others may disagree.

R28 Well, "others" are idiots.

This shit never happened.

There's that other cheek at R27 and R28.

Can you ever just hold your fucking tongue? You came here with a question, you knew you'd catch stick, and you still have to turn it in to a battle royale about you, not just get responses to your query.

You are an awful, awful person who apparently should pay more attention in church. Fuck off.

Does your church participate in any interfaith activities, OP? If so, perhaps there is an affiliated mosque that would be interested in taking part in a joint activity with your parish?

I would not recommend taking part in a meal that has ritual significance within Islam: the people in your parish probably wouldn’t like it if a mosque acted out one of the sacraments in order to show solidarity with Catholics.

In terms of “praying for them”, it kind of depends on the prayer. Is it, “God, please keep our Muslim neighbors happy and safe,” or “God, please save the Muslims from the fires of hell and bring them to eternal life in the arms of our savior Jesus Christ.”

Being that your church has a racial equity group (I don’t think this is stupid, plenty of practicing Catholics are from different racial and ethnic backgrounds in the US) I’m guessing you’re the Guitar Mass Vatican II-embracing justice-for-all progressive Catholics, but asses can be found in every group.

When you pass off some recipes that you stole from a Muslim chef as your own, then it’ll be cultural appropriation.

[quote] What is a race equity team? What’s its purpose and goals?

Thanks, Egalandy. The chief goal is to work towards becoming an anti-racist parish. We contracted with a local nonprofit that helps organizations work on becoming anti-racist. They were with us for two years, and conducted a parish-wide survey, they interviewed ministry leads; met with staff; had focus groups (young adults; LGBTQ; young families; teens; senior parishioners; parishioners who have left the parish; and BIPOC parishioners); and did some "mystery" visits when we didn't know someone was watching us (they then wrote a report on what they observed and experienced during their visit. How welcomed they felt; church decor; religious imagery; the coffee hour and what type of food and drink is served; the parish bulletin and website; etc. Then they held workshops for ministry heads and also parish staff and clergy. After all this, they wrote a 30-page strategic report outlining a three-year plan.

We paid nearly $100K for all this and are committed to both learning and unlearning with the goal of becoming a truly welcoming place for everyone.

So, the race equity team is made up of a group of parishioners who have been meeting weekly since the murder of George Floyd and who are responsible for the work we've done and the work we have to do over the next three years. This team has created affinity groups in the parish (LGBTQ+; BIPOC; young families; seniors); they are planning for having a Spanish language liturgy; they are doing staff training; they are trying to make a case for the parish to hire a chief diversity officer; they are working with the liturgy director to try to make our liturgies more welcoming; they are working to incorporate in a more specific way racism as a topic in our children's religious ed classes; and they provide learning opportunities like lectures, guest speakers, a movie series with special attention to films having to do with race; and we amplify Black voices, writers, composers, and artists. We are also examining our statuary and are looking into getting some statues of saints who are Black.

That sort of stuff.

[quote] When you pass off some recipes that you stole from a Muslim chef as your own, then it’ll be cultural appropriation.

Oh, okay. Thanks, R33.

Islam is not a race. Muslims come in every color.

[quote] In terms of “praying for them”, it kind of depends on the prayer. Is it, “God, please keep our Muslim neighbors happy and safe,” or “God, please save the Muslims from the fires of hell and bring them to eternal life in the arms of our savior Jesus Christ.”

What do you think? Here's what the parish prayed for on November 28:

[quote] Hanukkah begins at sunset today, November 28. We remember our Jewish family and friends as they kindle the first candle of the menorah and begin their eight–day celebration of light.

I just Googled your church Greg, it looks beautiful. I am impressed at how progressive and charitable your parish is.

[quote] Does your church participate in any interfaith activities, OP? If so, perhaps there is an affiliated mosque that would be interested in taking part in a joint activity with your parish?

Yes, we do. That's a very good idea. Thank you!

Thanks, R38. It's a pretty great place.

Facebook, you ass.

Use it and blow.

[quote] There's that other cheek at [R27] and [R28].

What does this mean?

[quote] Can you ever just hold your fucking tongue? You came here with a question, you knew you'd catch stick, and you still have to turn it in to a battle royale about you, not just get responses to your query.

No, l am not inclined to hold my tongue when it shouldn't be held.

I knew I'd "catch stick" – ah...okay.

You are a weirdo. Read the responses again and ask yourself if I am really in the wrong.

[quote] You are an awful, awful person who apparently should pay more attention in church. Fuck off.

Okay, we're obviously dealing with someone with mental illness here, so I will not respond to that.

Peace, R31.

Nice stuff.

Of course you should discuss this on Datalounge.

Greg I sometimes defend you but we don’t believe you, you need more people.

Egalandy, here you go

R45, if you don't believe me, I don't really care.

It's funny though that this is what you choose not to believe. Interesting.

[quote] Of course you should discuss this on Datalounge.

I guess you're right, R44. It would be better of me to discuss ass eating or Prince Harry or something important like that.

R47 so you admit you have lied about other things. We’re the haters right about you all along?

Egalandy look here, too

[quote] [R47] so you admit you have lied about other things. We’re the haters right about you all along?

No. I don't read what I posted as any sort of admission of lying. Tell us more.

Get a blog!!!

Why not hijack a plane if you want to celebrate Muslim traditions?

Okay, fine.

Never mind.

As if there were ANY doubt how this thread would end.

... which is exactly why it was posted.

Oh, stop clutching your pearls, R55.

I got a few good, sincere, and helpful responses from people.

I'm just surprised at how miserable so many people out here are. I mean truly miserable.

And no, I did not post this to cause such an ugly response. You're very cynical.

[quote]We’re the haters

You sure are.

Thanks, R57.

R49's poor understanding of contractions was unintentionally on target.

The obvious people to discuss this with are Muslims. If you're holding an Iftar fast-breaking without Muslim input or Muslims attending, that's just weird. The second questions are what do you want to accomplish and who do you want to attend?

Now this is just me. I personally would be very skeptical of the consultants collecting 100k to give your church a plan on how to become an anti-racist institution. That money belongs in the pockets of poor people and the DEI consultants my company contracted with were hucksters.

Not cultural appropriation, but kind of an empty gesture without an interfaith component. I do applaud your parish for the effort, though.

Thank you, R59 and R60 — I agree with you on every point.

The key things missing from your argument are context and intent. In fact, this is what's wrong with the whole her too and every other "victim" movement. If you intend on mocking a race or religion or cultural practice, then fine, yes I would say that is cultural appropriation - like black face - not good - but to honor a ritual of another culture I think is not only NOT cultural appropriation but the opposite....

Surprised it was a Jesuit parish.

Jezzies.

Surprised it was NOT a Jezzie parish, I meant to say.

Does it count if I stay at Ramada Inn?

“Kindle the first candle” hahaha

There are 65 comments and no mention of the fact that these are two religions who despise gay men.

Of course, filthy Muslims are way worse. In poll after poll, Muslims around the world have expressed that they want gay men dead.

I don't really care about two gay-hating, pedophile organizations.

Serious question, with no disrespect or snark meant by it, but aren't you at all concerned about doxxing yourself Greg? You've left some pretty big bread crumbs for people to identify you. The DL attracts its fair share of crazies.

Catholics saying that they pray for groups of people is condescending, self-righteous bullshit. You are truly tone deaf to the world around you.

Okay.

There is so much about this post that is bothersome.

First, OP is a supposed gay man who is part of an organization that hates gay men. There are a bazillion gay-friendly churches out there, like the Unitarians, or some shit.

But OP threw in his lot with these freaks. Every damn month or so, I read about another Catholic school that has fired a gay teacher because he dared to post a picture of his bf on social media.

Then we have the issue of the "equity committee" or whatever the fuck they call it.

Recently, I checked out the website for the running club that I jogged with for several years in the mid-2000s. And what do ya know. On the front page, there is a DEI statement. What exactly is their plan? Are they going to talk about structural racism as the lace up their shoes?

They never mention any concrete steps they're taking to get black people to start jogging.

But here's the most insidious part: There is a report button on the website that encourages members to report instances of microaggressions. It's like freakin' snitch culture of East Germany or the USSR.

What started out as a casual jogging club for gay men and lesbians, has been hijacked by a cabal of 20-something "queer" people who aren't even same-sex attracted. But of course, starting a DEI committee looks great on a resume (at the current moment) and I'm guessing this was the real reason why these idiots felt that a running club needed a corporate-style DEI committee.

And getting back to religion: Both Catholics and Muslims preach that non-believers will be tortured in Hell until the end of time.

If you think I'll be tortured for eternity because I don't believe in your particular sky daddy, then how the hell can we share a meal and "reach across the aisle"? How does that even work?

[quote] Both Catholics and Muslims preach that non-believers will be tortured in Hell until the end of time.

hedda, I can only speak for the Catholic Church. It does not preach that at all.

Oh and if one ends up in hell, it is just until the end of time. It’s for eternity.

Eternity, by definition, has no beginning or end. The end of time is the destruction of the universe, at which point space and time as we currently know it will cease to be. Eternity, however, would continue unabated.

Correction:

Oh, and if one ends up in hell, it isn’t just until the end of time. It’s for eternity.

Look OP, I don't know your history with datalounge or why there is so much animosity between you and some other dataloungers who have been here for years. I've only been here for a few months and really don't give a crap about all these tit for tat exchanges.

To me, you're the recipe guy. But I gotta say, your nit-picking about the definition of "end of time" compared with "eternity" tells me that you're a bit of a troll.

That doesn't matter. What matters is that you see people who don't follow your particular religion as less than human. Both your religion and the Islam faith revel in the belief that non-believers will be tortured. That's sick and twisted.

And the self-hating gay stuff is also sick and twisted. Your church has done so much harm to children, gay men and lesbians. It's all so vile.

The supposed afterlife and the pedantic definition of "end of time" vs "eternity" is not important. What is important is that we can measure the harm that your group has done to gays and lesbians in the here and now.

@ confessional, the Church of the Holy Cut and Paste:

Forgive me, father, for I have sinned.

What is this sin?

I have felt hatred toward Greg.

Oh, don't worry, that's normal. Everybody says that.

Catholics are either hyper liberal or hyper conservative these days, and it's very confusing.

[quote] What matters is that you see people who don't follow your particular religion as less than human. Both your religion and the Islam faith revel in the belief that non-believers will be tortured. That's sick and twisted.

False

OP, I don’t want to get into any philosophical discussions about why are you Catholic, or why adapt a Muslim practice, etc. I love learning, attending and participating in cultural events. If your congregation wants to observe a day of Ramadan, go for it! I can 100% guarantee you not a single Muslim would ever be offended. On the contrary, they’d be touched and honored. It’s not offensive in the least. I have family abd friends that are Muslim, and they love any interest in their holiday. If your congregation wishes to visit a mosque and eat a meal there, that would be a welcomed gesture too.

In my little town, there is an interfaith iftar every year that’s open to the public and it’s great fun. Lots of delicious food and lots of interesting people. The one I go to is a potluck, so you get the best homecooked food from every culture possible. You literally see the love and pride that went into the dishes. Just spending the evening bonding over the food is worth it. No one discusses politics or sinning or anything like that.

OP shut the fuck up. Homages are not appropriations. Unless you're Quentin Tarantino.

God how much more of this idiocy can we take?

Why do you start threads like this? I don't want to argue with you again, and have you say I'm a ho, and a cunt, but you must realize how awful, most religions have been to gays, women and kids. I don't think its cultural appropriation if there is Interfaith worship or cultural exchange. All religions have different races too. Are you Greg, who posts recipes? I've enjoyed your posts about that, I just don't understand why you want to provoke people. If you aren't that Greg, I apologize.

Because, at heart, he's a troll.

R81 I am the Greg who posts recipes.

I never have nor would I ever say that you are a ho and a cunt. Are you?

Grow up. My church is full of young families, babies, gays and lesbians, trans.

I wasn’t being provocative. I asked a sincere question.

You are really something.

No Greg, YOU are something. I answered you sincerely too. You couch your posts in rhetoric that makes you seem troll like.

This is a question for you OP: can you sincerely explain why you've decided to part of a group that despises gay men and lesbians?

Don't you see a contradiction in what you're doing? How do you reconcile being a gay man and being part of a group that hates gay men?

Of course, the elephant in the room is that you're not a gay man. Are you actually a woman who is cos-playing as a gay man?

And if it's a faith community you're looking for, why not attend a church that is gay-affirming?

Op, weren't you the one who had the Juneteenth BBQ? Maybe you are better off sticking to your prunes in clam sauce.

I fast on Jewish holidays (my choice! I like the discipline and altered consciousness that comes from it) and, like Islamic fasts, that means not only abstaining from food (which is fine) but also from WATER for 24 hours+, which is horrible! (I’m not sure most people know about the no water thing…?)

Jewish fasts are rigourous, but nothing like Ramadan, which is hardcore.

Christians, with their “omg - I can only eat molluscs (gross!) for the forty day of lent! However will I cope?” can go fuck themselves for thinking they’re actually depriving themselves of anything.

[quote] All the Christians, Jews, and Muslims should just get together and go back to the Stone Age they came from. World's problems solved.

R3 is obviously ignorant of the human condition of dominance. Men will go to war over eye color.

[quote] The Jews don’t like it when the Fundies do Passover.

Passover (which starts sundown 5 April) is the celebration of the liberation of the Jews from 214 years of slavery in Egypt. Given this, non-Jews "doing Passover" is not only ludicrous, it's yet further cultural theft.

Sounds like white-guilt pandering/patronizing, applied now to Muslims, too. At my work, the DEI person was thinking about how to support employees who were going to be observing Ramadan. As if they needed her help.

If the parish has done interfaith things before, then go for it.

(PS: almost all the measures described at R34 sound absurd.)

Snack burka!

R43/Greg - your church really does sound lovely, but as someone raised atheist and whose only exposure to monotheistjc religion has been conservative Judaism… I have to say I just don’t get the whole Jesus thing but that’s okay! I’ve read the bible (ours, plus the little christian part)

As long as it’s a social group focused on doing GOOD and making the world a better place (tikkun olam), then who can object 🤷🏻

the appropriations of the romans and the greeks by the christians

R22 The fundies try to turn Passover into the Last Supper. It isn’t.

The "Fundies" should keep in mind that if Jesus returned tomorrow, he'd walk past every one of their churches looking for a synagogue.

Muslim (religion) = "race"?

^ I mean religious group

Muslims are not a race or religion, except in the US. Islam is an intrinsic part of cultural/national identity and lifestyle of Muslims. If you are not Muslim, then you are not considered Egyptian, Jordanian, Saudi Arabian, Iranian, Iraqi, Turkish, etc. etc.

You should serve up Halal Snack Packs (HSPs) to your group. They are fucking tasty and after eating one I feel positively Muslim adjacent.

Iftar isn’t some sacred ritual. It’s literally just an evening meal. If you do it, I would invite a local mosque ir perhaps a local Muslim heavy refugee group. Have the meal catered to ensure it is halal.

Of course,I personally wouldn’t do it. Why are Christians always cucking themselves and simping for Muslims? Praying for Muslims? The only time Muslims pray for you is for you to be converted.

the muslim killed everyone in the middle east n stole their cultures

Uh, huh. Why don't you just start tossing gay people off the top of buildings too. The Muslims won't mind you appropriating that aspect of their culture.

I don't think honoring the religious traditions of other people is cultural appropriation, but there are ways to do it sensitively and ways to do it clumsily. In general, various religions invite others as a gesture of hospitality. I'm not Jewish but I've been invited to probably 20+ seders in my life, mostly in the homes of Jewish friends. I'm respectful of the traditions, and say whatever prayers are required for the occasion. In various parts of the country, Catholic parishes offer some sort of fish fry on Fridays during Lent, and people who come don't have to show their "catholic card". But in general, Catholicism doesn't have many rituals around food and food preparation, which both Judaism and Islam have in spades. Some Catholic countries have special meals before Christmas (the meal of the 12 fishes, or the meal of the seven fishes for instance) - but that is not universal by any means. Both Judaism and Islam have many precepts about sheltering strangers. (A remnant from their tribal origins, when nomadic people depended on a kind reception at an oasis or well). I'm sure that if Greg's parish has made overtures to the Muslim community, informed some community Muslims of their desire to hold an Iftar and seeking advice on how to do it in the most respectful way, it would be looked upon very favorably, particularly if they invited representatives from that community to assist in the preparation and participation in the eating of the meal, maybe a presentation about the history of the tradition, as well as ecumenical prayers.

There's nothing grosser than people inviting people of other faiths and then lecturing them or offering prayers for their conversion to the faith of their hosts.

Along those lines, there's a very old Jewish joke about a lone Jewish man living in a small village in medieval France. He was very well-liked as the best tailor around. . However. on Friday afternoons, when the village people were preparing their dried and salted cod meals or some barely edible lentils and bread, they were tortured by the delicious smell of chicken soup wafting through the town as the tailor prepared his sabbath meal. Finally the village people couldn't stand it. They went to the priest and said, "Father, you've got to do something about Moishe. He's driving us crazy on Fridays". After a few weeks, the priest decided he had no choice but to forcibly convert the tailor. So one day, the townspeople burst into Moishe's home and dragged him off to the church, where the priest did a formal conversion ceremony, culminating in the words, "Domine domini domini, once a Jew, now a Christian". Everyone went back about his business, relieved that the matter had been settled and they'd no longer be tortured on Friday afternoons. However, the next Friday arrived and once again, the delicious smell of chicken soup cooking wafted through town. Now the townspeople were livid and en masse, they sped to Moishe's house, determined to punish him. When they burst through the door, there was Moishe in front of the fire where his soup was cooking. He was on his knees, desperately saying a prayer...."Domini domini domini, once a chicken, now a fish".

PS Catholics do "real fasting" on Ash Wednesday and again on Good Friday, where food is usually not consumed until dinner time. (The "rule" is only one meal eaten on that day).

Would the opposite be done? Answer is no and answer is no!

Among Christians the various Eastern churches, Eastern Orthodox, Eastern Rite Catholics, etc. observe pretty harsh fasts during Lent. Basically no animal products the whole time and no olive oil (their churches basically originated in the eastern Mediterranean area, including the Middle East, so this is harsh.) Probably observed more in the breach but nonetheless.

OP, why don’t you just focus on Lent and meditate on Jesus’ suffering and sacrifices…which is what Catholics are supposed to be doing during this time, and not worrying about what Muslims are doing?

Since Vatican Council II it's certainly acceptable for Catholics to pray for people of another faith, including non-Christians.

I don't know whether you ignored me or have me on block Greg, but seriously, aren't you worried about some unhinged DLer working out who you are based on your posts about your life in Boston?

[quote] This is a question for you OP: can you sincerely explain why you've decided to part of a group that despises gay men and lesbians?

It doesn’t despise gay men and lesbians.

[quote] Don't you see a contradiction in what you're doing? How do you reconcile being a gay man and being part of a group that hates gay men?

No, I don’t. It doesn’t hate gay men. Many priests I know are gay.

[quote] Of course, the elephant in the room is that you're not a gay man. Are you actually a woman who is cos-playing as a gay man?

What difference does it make?

[quote] And if it's a faith community you're looking for, why not attend a church that is gay-affirming?

I never said I am looking for a faith community. But thanks for your interest.

I assume R34 is a parody post from the Onion.

[quite] OP, why don’t you just focus on Lent and meditate on Jesus’ suffering and sacrifices…which is what Catholics are supposed to be doing during this time, and not worrying about what Muslims are doing?

R105, why don’t you stop being so insulting? You have no idea what you’re talking about. I believe my church is focusing plenty on Lent. But the rest of life doesn’t stop. And we’re not worrying about what Muslims are doing. You’re an idiot.

No, R109, why would you think that?

[quote] Op, weren't you the one who had the Juneteenth BBQ? Maybe you are better off sticking to your prunes in clam sauce.

Another member of the Datalounge intelligentsia.

Isn’t culturally relevant stuff so others can admire it and want to be part of it? So you own braids now, black women? But yet you can straighten and bleach blonde your hair and no one calls you “cultural appropriating?”

[quote] I assume [R34] is a parody post from the Onion.

Why?

[quote] Are you actually a woman who is cos-playing as a gay man?

Can you do that? I need to check my Datalounge owner's manual.

op, drop dead murderers

[quote] I don't think honoring the religious traditions of other people is cultural appropriation,

R102 "Honoring" is a nebulous term. Being invited to a Passover seder as a guest may be "honoring" your hosts but it is most certainly is not "honoring" the injunction (not tradition) to retell the story of the liberation from slavery/going out from Egypt, since that injunction is not incumbent upon non-Jews. Non-Jews preparing a feast or otherwise "celebrating" a holiday with which they have no connection is very much cultural theft and as previously mentioned, ludicrous.

[quote] Both Judaism and Islam have many precepts about sheltering strangers.

Jewish law has TWO injunctions about sheltering the JEWISH stranger within the JEWISH community:

Vayikra19:33-34 -

וְכִֽי־יָג֧וּר אִתְּךָ֛ גֵּ֖ר בְּאַרְצְכֶ֑ם לֹ֥א תוֹנ֖וּ אֹתֽוֹ:

כְּאֶזְרָ֣ח מִכֶּם֩ יִֽהְיֶ֨ה לָכֶ֜ם הַגֵּ֣ר | הַגָּ֣ר אִתְּכֶ֗ם וְאָֽהַבְתָּ֥ לוֹ֙ כָּמ֔וֹךָ כִּֽי־גֵרִ֥ים הֱיִיתֶ֖ם בְּאֶ֣רֶץ מִצְרָ֑יִם

You should send a delegation to a Muslim-hosted Iftar and invite a Muslim delegation to attend a titty-bearing, hard-drinking Mardi Gras celebration.

Addendum to R117

גר in this instance can be either a stranger, someone sojourning in the community who is completely unknown by anyone in the community. Or it can be a non-Jew who accepts/adopts the laws and customs of the Jewish nation.

I have attended an Iftar meal during Ramadan as a guest. I have attended an Eid al fitr meal at the end of Ramadan as a guest. I see no harm or insult in wanting to acknowledge Muslim traditions. I have Jewish friends who regularly celebrate Christmas and I don't regard it as "cultural appropriation." Now. maybe you may want to do a joint celebration so some of you will feel more comfortable. Celebrate with Muslims. Becoming aware is not appropriating.

[quote] Becoming aware is not appropriating.

Being a guest at a cultural event is being aware. Recreating a cultural event with which you have no connection is very much cultural theft.

Jews celebrate Xtian holidays because they are both a tiny minority in someone else's country and have lost/jettisoned their identity.

I understand going to a gay affirming Catholic parish if one was raised Catholic and wanted to maintain some connection to the faith and have some form of spirituality. It’s Greg’s decision and it’s not a terrible one. Granted the Episcopal Church is more gay affirming, less hypocritical than to the Catholic one but not everyone wants to be Pete and Chasten. Greg said he was Italian American. The Episcopal Churches I’ve visited are very white and still affect a certain middle class Waspiness. The gay men there are all put together and a lot like Pete and Chasten.

Yes, I too would prefer to go to a Catholic parish than hang out with Pete and Chasten clones.

R124 That's interesting.

So instead of hanging out with and out and proud gay couple you would rather hang with self-hating closet cases in the Catholic Church.

And for the record, there are no "gay-affirming" Catholic churches. Name one where they will allow a gay couple to marry.

I just don’t like pretend Wasps like Pete and Chasten.

R126 You're contradicting yourself. In one comment you said that you don't like Pete & Chasten because they're too waspy and now you say they're not waspy enough.

And by the way, how old are you? Who the fuck says "wasp" anymore?

[quote] self-hating closet cases in the Catholic Church.

Hardly. My church has a very active LGBTQ group and they have hosted a gay film series, they do volunteer work with PFLAG and also with an organization that takes in LGBTQ youth when they are kicked out of their homes. We have had many funerals for gay people where their spouse is exactly where any spouse should be at a funeral. We have parishioners marching in the Pride parade with a church banner. We usually have parishioners handing out brochures at Pride telling people how welcome and loved they’d be at our church. Anyway, R125, you don’t know everything.

R128 What concrete steps have you taken to help the numerous gay and lesbians teachers and admins who have been fired from Catholic schools?

I don’t like wasps and I like pretend wasps even more. No contradiction.

dislike even more^

Nothing, R129.

It has been stated by the Cardinal-Archbishop of Boston that gay people will not ever be fired from any Catholic institution, including schools, for being gay, including gay people in partnerships.

I’m afraid I have no power in other dioceses.

Though we have had parishioners create petitions to say how outrageous it is when that happens. In particular with that Jesuit middle school in Worcester that list its Catholic identity (technically) because they refused to take down their BLM and rainbow flags from in front of the school.

^ list = ‘lost’

To be clear, the Archbishop of Boston is only speaking about the Archdiocese of Boston. He only has jurisdiction there.

Greg,

I like your posts and think you’re probably a sensitive and sweet guy. I’m curious how old you are. Would you mind sharing?

The only gays I know who are still practicing Catholics are over 50 (mostly 60+). I’m significantly younger than that and was raised Catholic. However, I told my parents I refuse to go to church with them or support the Catholic regime. I understand why some people are drawn to it, but even if a handful of parishes are good, the organization as a whole has some very discriminatory practices and I don’t want to endorse it in any way. I am still somewhat spiritual, but I don’t talk about it in public and am somewhat turned off by people younger people who let you know “I’m a Christian” or “I’m a Jew” or “I’m a Muslim.” If they’re older, I kind of give them a pass. It just seems like those types of people are insular and also feel they are superior to those who don’t share their religion. I’m not saying you’re that way, but many are.

I Walked away from the Catholic Church after the sex scandals and the cover up. I now attend an Episcopal Church and they are WONDERFULLLL!

There was a video on my FB feed with some big douche crying cultural appropriation because some little girl in his daughters class got her hair braided because her friend, who was a little black girl, had the same style and she liked it. I posted a comment reminded him that women have been braiding their hair for centuries all over the world in that same style, and she was just a little girl who wanted to look pretty - she wasn't appropriating any culture - I mean is this BS ever going to stop? It detracts us from people who really are doing harmful things....like the drunk guy at the Christmas party who put his hand on your ass is not the same thing as the CEO who is pressuring women to have sex with him to keep their jobs, yet, they are both treated the same.

R134 — 56

And, R134, my church has quite a few younger gay practicing Catholics. Even converts to Catholicism who are gay and lesbian. We also have children with two mothers or two fathers. And we have younger trans and non-binary parishioners. We also have people leading ministries who are both gay and trans. There’s no problem with it.

Here’s the thing about those who think they’re attending a “welcoming” Catholic church. If you’re having gay sex you are fornicating. Fornication is a mortal sin. If you go to Confession and willfully omit a mortal sin, your confession is invalid, as are all future confessions until you confess the mortal sin you’re hiding. So if you’re a practicing Catholic attending mass, and you’re a sexually active gay man, then I assume you are confessing your fornicating. However if you have no intention of refraining from this same mortal sin in the future, your confession is invalid. The Catholic faith is not a cafeteria. You don’t choose only the things you like. It’s all or nothing. So which is it? All or nothing?

r139 = Ross Douthat

^I don’t believe what I wrote! I’m just explaining what the church teaches.

Greg/r138, what's your opinion of Catholics who attend Mass daily? Devout or fanatical?

[quote]The Catholic faith is not a cafeteria. You don’t choose only the things you like.

And yet virtually every church-going Catholic does. Very few of the faithful are confessing contraception - also a mortal sin, and employed by up to 90% of Catholics at some point in their lives - to their priests.

[quote] Greg/[R138], what's your opinion of Catholics who attend Mass daily? Devout or fanatical?

Devout. Though it’s possible that individuals are fanatical. But being a daily communicant doesn’t make one fanatical. We have a lovely group of about 12 daily communicants. They are good, generous people.

People associate Islam with brown Middle Easterner/North African. Ignoring millions of Muslims are also black, white and Asian due to Islam's spread to Subsaharan Africa, Eastern/Southern Europe and South and Southeast Asia.

Also many MENA people are Christian and Jewish, as well as practice other religions like Zoroastrianism and Mandaeism.

Thanks r144

[quote] And yet virtually every church-going Catholic does. Very few of the faithful are confessing contraception

Because, R143, the Catholic Church teaches primacy of conscience—that people are obliged to follow their (informed) conscience, even if is not in agreement with Church teaching. We will be judged according to our conscience.

[quote] The Catholic faith is not a cafeteria. You don’t choose only the things you like. It’s all or nothing. So which is it? All or nothing?

That is a juvenile, uninformed, and inadequate explanation. You’ve left out the role of conscience.

[quote]My church has a very active LGBTQ group and they have hosted a gay film series, they do volunteer work with PFLAG and also with an organization that takes in LGBTQ youth when they are kicked out of their homes.

No Catholic Church does any of that.

[quote] No Catholic Church does any of that.

Oh okay, R149. I must belong to a different church.

There are plenty of links to my church above, asshole. Go look for yourself. Idiot.

Greg, I have to admit, you're growing on me

Hello, R151. To what do I owe the pleasure?

Glad I’m growing on you.

Sorry guys - but I have a serious problem with jerks like R149. He has no idea what he’s talking about, makes statements that are false, and is just really stupid.

What I'm getting at is Catholics can believe what they want if they feel it's just and consistent with their conscience. But why still be associated with the Vatican that's anti-gay and anti-woman? I get wanting to maintain your culture and community. And upholding Apostolic traditions but many high churches do this especially Episcopalians and some Lutherans and Methodists and they allow gay marriage and female pastors.

Shouldn't Catholics who still actively practice and support gay marriage, women as priests and abortion rights just create their own denomination?

R154 “shouldn’t they”? I honestly never understood people deciding what others “should” do in matters of conscience especially when they are highly personal and often influenced by many factors. Don’t you grasp that such issues are complex and maybe it’s best to try to let people make judgements without imposing a “should”?

Barfburgers.

Greg is a frau, it is so obvious.

When I was a kid in religion class we learned that the purpose of marriage was for the procreation of children. We learned sex outside of marriage was a mortal sin. No Pope has ever indicated that any of this had c hanged to accommodate modern times. Sex outside marriage is still a mortal sin, and marriage is still primarily for the procreation of children. So basically what R139 is saying about the church is correct. And it leaves no room for Gay sex or Gay marriage. The modern church says being Gay is not a sin, but having sex is. Go figure.

Greg, seriously, are you trying to be identified? You may as well post your own pic at this point, because it won't be long until someone you've pissed off here posts you in the OP of a Womanly Asses thread. Not hating, I am genuinely alarmed by how unconcerned you seem to be about your cyber safety.

R139 is a narcissistic and uninformed cunt. Educate yourself, bitch, or listen to Greg and R143. You sound like a pre-Vatican II member of the John Birch Society.

R160, yes most Catholics break the rules and pick and choose. But the rules have not changed.

You know, here's what I don't get. Yes., there are rules. I remember as a kid if you ate meat on Friday it was a mortal sin and you'd go to hell. Same with missing Sunday Mass. Then suddenly that rule gets thrown out and you can eat meat on Friday, and you can go to mass on Saturday, if you like, and a bunch of other rules get changed about marriage too. Like if a Catholic married a non Catholic they couldn't have a mass and and a bunch of other stuff, and now who gives a shit? Right? Nowhere have I Read in the 10 Commandments about premarital sex. Only that you can't fuck your sister and you can't commit adultery. Coveting is sinful. My point being it ought be that I can have sex whenever I want to as long as the other person is single like me.

[quote]But the rules have not changed.

You know pretty much nothing about Catholic history (or the history of Christianity, for that matter), r161

Greg's religion is his business. If you don't like Catholicism, don't practice it. Greg, tell us what your congregation ended up doing.

Greg is lined out.

That just means a lot of posters F&Fed him, r165. He hasn't actually been red tagged.

r166, "red tagged?" what does that mean?

It means that Muriel has flagged them as a troll and they can no longer post on DL -- at least from the account/IP address they had been using.

[quote] It means that Muriel has flagged them as a troll and they can no longer post on DL -- at least from the account/IP address they had been using.

Very interesting.

It's switched IP numbers. Some of his replies are gray lined. Others, like above, aren't.

[quote]My point being it ought be that I can have sex whenever I want to as long as the other person is single like me.

Of course you can. But the Catholic prohibition against premarital sex is constructed on a much broader foundation than the Ten Commandments.

Not that it matters much, since I don't know a single Catholic couple married after 1980 or so that observed this particular tenet.

That has no bearing on it, r170. Individual replies from users can become greylined if they receive too many F&Fs. They might also get a time out.

When Muriel red tags a troll, that's totally different. All their posts became greylined and they are labeled Troll 3942 (or whatever).

That makes sense of it, R172. Thx. I guess the trollmark of shame comes after cumulatively too many F&F. No doubt this lady's day will come.

And there was a long gap in its replies. Maybe the time out.

Yawn

I have my account set on asbestos eyeballs and he’s grayed out for me, so there must have been a lot of FFs.

Anyho, to the person above who talked about meat on Fridays and Saturday mass. I was taught it was not eating meat on Fridays that sent you to hell but intentional violation of the Church’s rule against eating meat on a Friday. (Crazy of course.) Apparently it became popular and almost universal for bishops to just do away with the rule after Vatican II. I’m told the Catholics in England must still observe it as it is still the local rule there. (May not be true.) Saturday mass in the evening fulfilling Sunday obligation is also post Vatican II and is an adaptation of the Jewish custom that he holy day begins the night before. I suspect this was done in Catholicism in the past and discontinued. I’m no expert just your average Catholic Joe over 60. In special circumstances a local bishop (called the ordinary) can designate any day a day to fulfill the Sunday obligation. I saw this in the far north of Canada where there was one priest serving an immense region. He would travel around and the bishop had designated Thursday as the ok day in one Native village and Tuesday that day in another.

The Saturday evening (must be 4:00 or later) anticipatory Mass was permitted as a Mass of convenience for people who could not make it to Mass on Sunday because of hardship (work). It was not conceived as something for just anyone to attend—though that is exactly what has happened.

And, like R176 said, the Catholic Church marks time in a similar way to Judaism. One day (liturgically speaking) begins at sundown on the previous day. Hence Christmas Eve, the Eve of Easter, etc.

[quote] No doubt this lady's day will come.

What a big queen you are. Embarrassing.

If I'm a big queen, so be it. Better that than the kind of gay man who mocks others for who they are as gay men, you filth. Some Christian. Some gay man. You just expose your rotten, twisted self more every day.

[quote] If I'm a big queen, so be it. Better that than the kind of gay man who mocks others for who they are as gay men, you filth. Some Christian. Some gay man. You just expose your rotten, twisted self more every day.

If I mock you, R179, it’s only because you desperately deserve it. Just how do I mock others “for who they are as gay men?” Tell us.

You did refer to me as a lady, didn’t you?

Now go back to your room and don’t come out until you can act like a big boy.

I suppose as a bad Catholic your interest in boys had to surface eventually.

R181, I don’t share your enthusiasm for making jokes about child rape and the sexual abuse of children.

And the people who gave you a ‘WW’ are nearly as bad.

We're still better than you, asshole. And it wasn't a joke, it was an insult.

How the fuck did this thread go from A to Z so quick. Dear lord.

[quote] We're still better than you, asshole. And it wasn't a joke, it was an insult.

Oh. Very interesting.

1. While some may be better than me (whatever that means), I am confident that you are not among them.

2. It was a joke. You should admit to yourself that you joke about child rape and the sexual abuse of children.

Or - tell me right now that you think it’s appropriate to insult someone by suggesting they are sexual abusers. Is that what you think? It’s what you said.

Please grow up and think twice about your insults or jokes.

[quote] How the fuck did this thread go from A to Z so quick. Dear lord.

Is that a real question, R184?

Sorry — “better than I” at R185.

The "we ate meat on Friday" circle of Hell really is the most embarrassing district. I mean, we torture them horribly, but still, it's just more a chore than a pleasure.

Greg, I have questioned you multiple times about your flippant attitude towards protecting your real life identity. Yet you respond in a timely fashion to your detractors. Am I not worthy of a response? I'm genuinely curious. You've revealed much of yourself in an anonymous (and extremely bitchy) forum. That takes some balls.

R189, I am not concerned.

And I have balls.

How are you? Are you in the UK?

No, I'm Australian. I used to take the piss out of you in your earlier days, but I have to admit Greg that you're growing on me. You are obviously an intelligent bloke and rather funny. Respect to you, mate.

Greg's growing on me too, r191

R191, I’m glad you’ve had a change of heart. You are in the minority.

I touch many nerves out here. And most would disagree with you regarding my being amusing.

I appreciate your kindness.

Awww … R192.

I’m glad I am.

[quote] Surprised it was NOT a Jezzie parish, I meant to say.

R63/R64: they are never called "Jezzies."

They are often referred to casually as the "Jebbies."

Since we're so off topic here, I'll mention that I like Greg.

Greg, while home for Christmas, I made one of your recipes (chicken with mustard sauce) for my finicky parents and it went over well. Thanks.

I'm so happy to hear that, R196. And I'm glad your finicky parents liked it as well.

I hope you're having a nice day.