Rishi Sunak Likes His Elgin Marbles, Thank You Very Much

While I’ve enjoyed the convenience of seeing them in London, they really should be returned to Athens.

Fair enough.

Digital photograph is so good now I don't need to travel across the planet to see paintings and sculpture and stuff.

It's fine. And as your country gets poorer by the minute, you'll be divesting them in no time. Your tourists should watch their asses when in Greece too, cuz you ain't shit on the street.

Revenge is a dish best served cold. - Yet another concept invented by Greeks.

He's a cunt.

[quote] It's fine. And as your country gets poorer by the minute

Compared to that Greek tiger?

Good for Rishi !

He's turning out to be a strong leader after all.

He's doing what every PM has said and done on the matter, R7.

The Rosetta Stone should never be returned to Egypt, either. Finders keepers, losers weepers.

They didn't stumble on these things, R9, so much as made off with them. In the case of the Parthenon marbles, they were pried off the building.

And let's not call them by the name of the guy who stole them.

Sorry, "excavated" them.

Typical British imperialist thievery.

The Brits NEVER steal! Anymore.

Even if it was nailed down, the Brits stole it.

[quote] He's turning out to be a strong leader after all.

Britain's fleet of nuclear-powered hunter-killer submarines could be doubled as part of a landmark deal with the US and Australia.

Rishi Sunak has confirmed a multi-billion-pound deal with the two allies to help develop and build the vessels after meeting US President Joe Biden and Australian PM Anthony Albanese at a naval base in California.

The initiative represents some of the first concrete steps taken by the three nations to strengthen the Aukus strategic partnership they announced 18 months ago.

It will see Britain and the US supply Australia with nuclear-powered submarines for the first time, enhancing its ability to counter the threat posed by China’s growing military ambitions.

As part of the deal, British military chiefs are pushing to increase the size of the UK’s hunter-killer submarine fleet from seven to as many as 20

This is the conclusion I've come to:

If the individual country where the ancient priceless artworks come from want them back then the artworks should be returned post haste.

The artworks can then be lent out by agreement and shown in other counties on loan tours. But the artworks can't be based in/or owned by a country where they didn't originate from unless there is full agreement. There is not agreement because most of the countries where the artworks originated from want them back.

The countries who have stolen the artworks from colonies they invaded (colonialists like the UK, France, Holland, Spain, Portugal etc.) should get on this issue right away. Do a stocktake. Contact the owning country and sort it all the fuck out.

I remember seeing all the stunning Greek statues and artworks in the Louvre and thinking that they belonged in Greece. When I visited Athens a few years later I remembered the Louvre and 100% knew they absolutely should be in Greece - not Paris.

The world of colonialism is long gone. Now we have to fix the wrongs before we can move on. All of these artworks were stolen. There is no other way to describe the situation. [bold]Stolen.[/bold]

Not to mention that Greece was under the control of Turkey at the time and it was the Turkish leader who signed off on Elgin's removal of the marbles he pried off the Parthenon.

Elgin didn't steal the marbles. He asked for them and was given formal permission from the Ottomans running the area at the time.

"The Parthenon was showing its age, having suffered a catastrophic 1687 explosion while it was being used by the Turks as a gunpowder magazine. Years of looting followed. In the early nineteenth century, Greece was still part of the Ottoman Empire, and it was from that government that Elgin obtained a firman, or official permission, for taking the marbles."

Who are you, R14, that we should obey your high-minded, uncosted ruminations?

It doesn't matter now who did what, when and how R15 & R16.

The artworks were stolen and should be returned with immediacy to the country where they were stolen from. It's very simple. End of story.

R16, Greece didn't agree to the removal of its cultural patrimony, its invading army the Ottomans did. And the idea that Elgin was saving them from the marauders (the Ottomans) from using the marbles as target practice adds insult to injury.

What you're quoting from, by the way, is the cookie cutter statement issued by British representatives. Or is it the British Museum, the owner of the stolen art.

I see that (6) is still living in the past. She thanks God every night that there's still Gibraltar!

Colonialist-imperialist Girleen, your ship of foolishness sailed prior to 1920....

And now a full century later, the sun has set on you-know-where!

R14 has made his declaration at R14 and R18 and must be obeyed!

Stolen stolen stolen. It would be like having a home invader (the Ottomans) tie you up and load up your possessions, then invite some other random thief (the British) to come in and help themselves as well.

What a POS.

R17 and R21 - have any of you visited the places where the artworks were stolen from? I have and have seen what was left. Nothing.

As for who I am - I'm nobody. I posted my opinion on this situation. Sorry that the suggestion to return stolen irreplaceable artworks to where they were stolen from causes you both so much grief and angst.

Most people want this to happen because it's logical and fair. It's just you who don't agree.

[bold]The artworks were STOLEN. They must be returned.[/bold]

My virtue MUST be signalled!

Why don't you want the artworks returned R25, R21, R17 et al?

Please explain.

I agree with R14. Museums all over the world are watching what happens, though, and a lot of Museums may have to return works of art and history, if Britain returns those marbles. Slippery slope.

History is written by the winners, and Great Britain voted themselves into being losers. They don't control the narrative anymore.

[quote] Slippery slope.

R27 is referring to the slippery slope of institutions having to return what they own that was stolen. As if that's a bad thing.

What about those crown diamonds ?

Obviously Italy must dismantle the Colosseum and ship it to Israel with a big apology.

The Met MUST return these back to Europe!

They MUST.

Did the MET purchase the artworks by mutual agreement on the understanding from both parties that they would be owned by the Met and reside in the Met - or did they steal them R32?

There's a big difference obviously.

Nothing to say for yourselves R25, R21 and R17???

I thought you'd all have a series of really great, well thought out explanations about why you are so adamant that these priceless, historic artworks should not be returned to the countries they were stolen from.

Guess not...

Not to mention, R32, the Met has, in fact, returned, several stolen artifacts they'd owned.

But R32 equates prying marbles off buildings to paintings that actually have provenance and legit bills of sale.

But of course, R32 is disingenuous.

As disingenuous as Lilly Contino.

The British paternalism complex is in full force here. Even now, British people in comment sections everywhere argue that the Greeks "can't handle" stewardship of their own artifacts.

This is all bizarre Estonian/Oxbridge bullshit and is tied to their obsession with "The Classics", by the way. Those marbles are a huge prize to these wankers.

Who do these beautiful sculptures belong to?

They were created in Athens. But Greece – the nation as we know it today – did not actually exist at the time. Rather, the Greeks populated the area around the Aegean, the Black Sea and Mediterranean. There were about 1,500 (often quarrelsome) city states and communities with their own laws and armies.

European museums, including the British Museum and the Louvre, hold ‘an extraordinary repository of the high points of human achievement across many different cultures’, writes Nick Trend in the Telegraph. Subjecting these treasures to political diktat serves only short-term ends and risks tearing apart these collections. That would be to the detriment not just to these museums, but to the international publics and scholars who visit them.

Thank you for those [bold]facts[/bold] R35.

Like it or not - this is the beginning of stolen artworks being returned. Nobody is talking about purchased artworks where there was a clear and provable sale by the artwork's owner and agreement with the new owner on receipt of payment. Nobody is talking about those artworks. It's the artworks which have been taken from their rightful owners without permission. e.g.; from the peoples of Greece and Egypt, Africa, Australia, New Zealand, Americas, Canada and Asia. And they were stolen and then retained by a very small group of countries, concentrated in one area of the planet. They plundered and stole anything that wasn't impossible to steal - like the Pyramids and the Sphinx.

When Sunak says “We show the world their assets, and the world travels to the UK to view them.”

What a pompous, shitty thing to say. Those "assets" should clearly be in their rightful places. There is no argument against doing this otherwise one of the twats above would have posted the argument. But they haven't - because it's indefensible.

I feel very strongly about this for some reason having seen what remains when a colonist country loots and destroys their colony. It's what colonists do yes I know. But it ALL has to go back. The quicker we just do this - the sooner we can get onto other things. This is a no-brainer and likely to produce a lot of goodwill and appreciation from the countries involved. That's what I think.

I'll come out and post with my authenticated name. I'm Australian. Our First People want their shit back. Pronto.

[quote] I'm Australian. Our First People want their shit back.

Will they place it in their toilets?

Well, you know what I meant R40.

They want their ancient artefacts, artworks, priceless sacred cultural items and all the dead bodies (for display) they took without permission. Under protestation and often death. They want that stuff back. Australians do too. We want the UK and other European countries to do the right thing and to give it back.

If the Greeks want some marbles that badly I have no objection to humoring them

[quote] dead bodies (for display)

Do you claim that these items were on display?

They ARE on display R43. Currently around 1000 stolen Aboriginal bodies are on display in British and European museums.

R44 = me.

The UK government should tell all deluded Americans who think the Elgin Marbles should be given to Greece that first the U.S. should return all Mexican land to Mexico and all Indian land to the Americans. That kind of American extreme hypocrisy needs to be called out.

R44 That link shows no items ON DISPLAY for tourists and other casual sticky-beaks.

Small insignificant little man representing a small insignificant little island with a shrinking economy . More and more isolated . Whoring out the relics of it's own past or better countries they stole, looted or pillaged . A tatty tourist attraction of a nation. A rival to Euro Disney but with worse cuisine. Did we mention their inspiring leadership?

They want their ancestors bodies returned R47. That's the point.

Buck never would have taken the Elgin marbles.

[quote] The UK government should tell all deluded Americans who think the Elgin Marbles should be given to Greece

The woke Brits are calling for it. The same ones who were tearing down statues.

Sunak will eat his words. He is wrong and the Parthenon Sculptures will be returned to Greece.

Yes, R51, statues are racist.

R52 He is wrong

And we are Right!

I wonder what Sunak's thought are on the Koh-I-Noor Diamond. Did Britain obtain it legitimately, steal it, get it by shady means...or should it be returned to India?

[quote] Sunak will eat his words. He is wrong and the Parthenon Sculptures will be returned to Greece.

lol. Sure, Jan.

How many bailouts has Greece had so far? No one is giving them shit.

Sunak’s poll numbers just went up. Brits like a strong non-woke leader. One that can define what a woman is.

Elgin? Is that where the cool kids are headed these days?

[quote]Britain's fleet of nuclear-powered hunter-killer submarines could be doubled as part of a landmark deal with the US and Australia. Rishi Sunak has confirmed a multi-billion-pound deal with the two allies to help develop and build the vessels after meeting US President Joe Biden and Australian PM Anthony Albanese at a naval base in California.

I'm glad AUKUS excludes New Zealand. Even though the Prime Cunt of the country stepped down, the fact that she was ever in power shows the NZ should not be considered an ally of the U.S.

Greek bailouts are nothing new

Greece's ability to preserve its heritage is irrelevant. The Elgin Marbles are looted national treasure, "sold" by an occupying power that had no right to sell them. As long as the Brits refuse to return them, they remain complicit/accessories to theft. If Italy can return Ethiopia's Axum obelisk , there's no excuse why the Brits should not act in the same good faith. Give 'em back!

No doubt Sunak will most certainly not get all bolshi, wave the flag, two fingers up about the Koh-i-Noor diamond.

Good. I an sick of Western leaders cucking their own countries. Perhaps because he is Indian, Rishi has more ability to defend the glory of the UK. More power to him.

UK should say to Greece “pay back the money we gave to the EU to bail you out and then we will talk”.

Absolutely they must be returned as should all ungifted works. Ex colonies should also be returned to the rule of First Nation people.

[quote] Ex colonies should also be returned to the rule of First Nation people.

R64 That worked a treat in Africa, didn't it.

These claims will not work with the Elgin Marbles. Elgin did not steal anything. He respectfully asked permission from the government of the time and got it in. He impoverished himself in getting them back to England (during which journey he was imprisoned by Napolean's forces for a few years as a POW). The Turks never objected to his taking the marbles, and neither did the Greeks later on when they were returned to power.

Once it was established as a money-making attraction in Britain in the 20th century, Greece began claiming it was "stolen". Nonsense. The Ottomans owned Greece when Elgin got permission. At that moment it wasn't "Greece" it was the Ottoman Empire.

Too bad for Greece. They should have fought the Ottomans harder.

The UK didn't give Greece any bailout money, r63.

R57, the majority of Britons believe the marbles should be returned to Greece.

Yes they did, r67. The UK was the major financial contributor to the EU, and the EU bailed Greece out. British taxpayers bailed Greece out.

r68 I thought that number sounded bizarrely high, so I looked at the article and found this.:

"A YouGov poll, carried out on behalf of the Parthenon Project — which campaigns for their restitution, found 53 per cent supported the return"

So the Parthenon Project paid for the poll. Dismissed.

I know Rishi is very short and slightly built but I now want him in me quite deeply.

[quote]Too bad for Greece. They should have fought the Ottomans harder.

That's what it boils down to, R66. History's losers don't want to accept the consequences of their failure.

Lol, bullshit, r69. The UK was never the largest net contributor to the EU and it was the eurozone and IMF that funded the bailout - in the form of loans to Greece, which Greece is repaying.

Britain specifically refused to support Greece during the bailout. Then Chancellor of the Exchequer, George Osborne, said:

[quote]George Osborne, the chancellor, said earlier that he would block any EU move to draw on an emergency fund containing British money for the new bailout programme.

[quote]Arriving in Brussels for a meeting of European finance ministers, Osborne said: “Britain is not in the euro, so the idea that British taxpayers will be on the line for this Greek deal is a complete non-starter. The eurozone needs to foot its own bill.”

Ironically, George Osborne is now the Chair of the British Museum and is very enthusiastic about returning the Parthenon Marbles to Greece.

That only says Osbourne sought to avoid bailing them out, not that Osbornse succeeded.

Are you really that dumb, r74? The bailout was funded by the eurozone, not by the EU. The UK was not a member of the eurozone. The bailout was also in the form of loans, which Greece is repaying, not direct fiscal transfers.

By the way, from December 2022:

[quote]ATHENS, Dec 15 (Reuters) - Greece has repaid ahead of schedule 2.7 billion euros ($2.87 billion) of loans owed to euro zone countries under the first bailout it received during its decade-long debt crisis, a finance ministry official told Reuters on Thursday.

I hope there are many people willing to die on the hill of removing them from the British Museum. I mean this literally, I want to see the slaughter bodies of people outside The British Museum demanding that the marbles be pried from their dead hands before letting them go.

R76, it seems to be quite common for people of your political persuasion to fantasise about your opponents being dead. But you're the good guys, right?

Yes, I've noticed that too, r77. Odd, isn't it. And so consistent.

[quote] the majority of Britons believe the marbles should be returned to Greece.

An online poll, hon. Next.

R75, “source”.

[quote] That's what it boils down to, [R66]. History's losers don't want to accept the consequences of their failure.

Bingo. And according to Marxist, all property is theft, so even the Greeks don’t own it.

R76 = Gary Lineker.

Nobody believes y'all's genteel schtick anymore. You're foppish thieves.

It wasn't an online poll, r79, it was a poll conducted by YouGov. Another poll by YouGov of 7,717 adults in the UK, 59% believed the marbles belong in Greece. Polls in the UK over the years have shown a consistent majority in favour of the marbles' return.

R84 Polls are notoriously subjective. Depends on who commissioned the poll, who compiled the questions, who asked the questions and to whom, how the questions were phrased, and who compiled the resulting data. Polls have more to do with whatever agenda is being flogged than something that passes for reality/accuracy.

R85, even if polls are subjective or prone to error, they still indicate a general pattern. The exact percentage doesn't matter - what's significant is the general trend and all attempts I've ever seen to capture opinion on the return of the marbles indicate that most Brits believe the marbles should be returned.

You're welcome to post polls or any other data that show the majority of Brits want the marbles to stay in the UK, however.

I do love how r85 first tried to undermine the poll by saying it was an online poll. Then when it was pointed out to him that it wasn't an online poll (which he would have been aware of had he read the article), but by YouGov, a respected pollster, he switches to dismissing all polls.

The Acropolis Museum is fabulous and a far better site for the marbles than the British Museum. Being able to view the marbles, then turn around to see the Parthenon would be a far more impactful experience than the mausoleum-like gallery they're held in now.

[quote]We show the world their assets, and the world travels to the UK to view them.

Pervy little bastard, isn't he?

Hawt ^

This is like saying because the Nazis took priceless artwork from Germans, the art belong where they ended up not with the families the pieces originally belonged to.

[quote] even if polls are subjective or prone to error, they still indicate a general p attern

R86 Something subjective is never indicates an objective "general pattern".Or rather it is indicative of whatever "general pattern" fits the agenda.

[quote] I do love how [R85] first tried to undermine the poll

R87 is obviously complete ignorant about how to identify posters. R85 was my FIRST post about polls. This is my second.

NO, r91. It is absolutely the opposite of that.

The Nazis invaded, robbed, and never asked permission, much less got any permission from anyone. They were routed in under a decade. That was a short occupation. Anything they took rightly could and should be returned.

Elgin came to Ottoman Greece nearly 400 years- yes, FOUR HUNDRED years -after the Ottomans had taken it.

Greece was Ottoman land for longer than the United States has even been in existence.

No, R93, the British Empire was like super evil and shit. like so is America obviously but imma stay where I am, my great grandma was Cherokee

[quote] The Nazis invaded, robbed, and never asked permission, much less got any permission from anyone.

R93 They sure did "get permission". They put a Bill of Sale on the table, stuck a gun into the side of the owner's head and said "Sign here, Jew". And courts in both America and Europe consider those "Bills of Sale" legal and refuse to return property to Holocaust survivors and their descendants/heirs. See "Woman in Gold" for just one example.

[quote] Elgin came to Ottoman Greece nearly 400 years- yes, FOUR HUNDRED years -after the Ottomans had taken it.

R93 And the operative word is "taken". An even better word is LOOTED. The Ottomans knew it, the Greeks know it, the Brits know it. Pretending to be stupid does not alter the fact that the Marbles were, are and will forever remain part of Greece's heritage. Give 'em back!

A 400 year occupation is not some "blip". For at least 12 generations, Greece was Ottoman.

Elgin came at the end of that 400 year period of ownership, asked the people who had been owners of the Parthenon for those 400 years if he could take the marbles, and was given permission. Then he gave the marbles to the British Museum.

History is 'hard' for some. Especially for those with a political agenda the actual historical facts do not favour.

What's the big deal? I'd return whatever artifacts and art other states have asked for, the good diplomatic will is certainly worth more than having one more tourist trap.

R97 needs to look up the words "occupiers" and "owners". The Ottomans were the former.

Why should Britain give them up? They acquired them completely honestly and correctly.

Belligerent England looted the world. It's naive to expect them to ever change.

666The "I'm Anti-Britain" Troll has SPOKEN

R100 Purchasing looted property stolen from someone is neither honest nor correct. It's a crime.

It wasn't looted property, r103. It was taken after obtaining written permission from its owners.

R104 The Ottoman occupiers were not the owners. Greece was. And it sure didn't provide "written permission".

Everything used to be better.

After 400 years? Ok, r105. If you say so.

FUCK ALL THE WAY OFF RISHI HATERS

R107 An occupier is never an owner. Not after 100 years or 400 years. Someone who loots property is never an owner. He's a thief.

You're like the Muslims who believe that once Muslims have occupied someone else's land, it is forever Muslim. There are people in North Africa who have keys hanging on their walls. Those keys are supposedly to the houses their ancestors owned in Spain during the Muslim occupation. 500 years later, and they believe that those house and the entire Iberian peninsula belong to Muslims, retaining the keys to their homes for the day of the Muslim reconquest.

"We show the world their assets, and the world travels to the UK to view them."

That's a weird way to phrase it. Unless he's trying to say that the UK really is a gallery of dicks...(?)

Well honey, denying history has never worked for me, but if it works for you, go hog wild. The Ottomans were the owners of the Parthenon. They had made it into their chief mosque not long after they took Greece in 1453. Then, centuries after they turned it into a mosque they accidentally blew it up, because Muslims always use their mosques as weapons stores, per the Koran, and by the time explosives were invented , they kept those there too.

I see that you categorically deny history for political reasons. But I do not deny history, you cannot make me do so, and your "argument" is that of a 12 year old who never read a book.

And so, I dismiss your 'argument', and you, as irrelevancies.

[quote] denying history has never worked for me,

R111 But misusing the English language believing it makes your point does seem to work a treat.

[quote] The Ottomans were the owners of the Parthenon

Occupiers. They didn't purchase it from the Greeks. No permission, no Bill of Sale. Then they looted parts of it. Again, no permission, etc. The Ottomans were occupying THIEVES. Certainly not owners.

The Ottomans owned Greece from 1453 until the Greek War of Independence in 1821.

OWNED.

If the Ottomans hadn't owned it, there would be no need for a War of Independence, now, would there?

Everyone is allowed to keep everything that they had up until the point when the United States was founded. Then keeping stuff became bad.

Not everything is about America, r114, which is 245 years old.

The Ottomans owned Greece for 155 years longer than that.

R113 Occupiers don't own. They occupy. International laws regarding foreign/hostile army occupation were finally codified at the end of the nineteenth century. But a foreign country invading another and remaining is called OCCUPATION by any reasonable definition. Exacty like property summarily removed from the occupied land is called LOOTING/THEFT. Even the Italians understood these concepts and did the right thing.

[quote] If the Ottomans hadn't owned it, there would be no need for a War of Independence, now, would there?

War has nothing to do with "ownership" and everything to do with power/control. Independence is obtained by the weaker from the stronger. Again "ownership" plays no part.

r116 Oh, honey...Yes they do.

"Possession is 9/10ths of the law."

That old phrase was not coined with regard to tchochkes. It was coined in regard to war.

Occupiers were owners until the United States was founded. Then occupiers became occupiers.

The British always uses terms like "we were gifted," and "we asked permission."

Please, they plundered. Asking permission is a formality when they have colonized you.

The Ottomans owned Greece from 1453 to 1821 and there is nothing you attemptive historical revisionists can do about it.

[quote] The Ottomans owned Greece for 155 years longer than that.

So?

The marbles belong in the country of origin, specifically when the country is asking for them. They are part of Greek history, not British history.

[quote] "Possession is 9/10ths of the law."

R118 Not when it comes to a hostile army of occupation. Just because they have power over the land does not signify ownership.

The British say the same with the Kohinoor diamond. "The Indians gave it to us"

Good. I want you Cultural Marxists to waste your time on irrelevancies such as this. Go ahead. Fight your hearts out.

[quote] The Ottomans owned Greece from 1453 to 1821 and there is nothing you attemptive historical revisionists can do about it.

R121 The Ottomans OCCUPIED Greece from 1453 to 1821 and your mangling of the English language does not change that.

[quote] Good. I want you Cultural Marxists to waste your time on irrelevancies such as this. Go ahead. Fight your hearts out.

Cultural Marxists? More like property owners

R125 Instead of whinging/bitching, make some popcorn!! Lots of butter, a bit of salt!

r127 Whatever. Keep focussing on this and on trying to alter history1984-style. whatever you do.

Keeps you uselessly occupied, which suits me.

Christoher Hitchens wrote a book about the tangled history of the Parthenon Marbles, and in it he details the way Elgin spirited them out of Greece after being given a sign-off by the Ottoman occupiers. (By the way, in prying some of them off, some fell and shattered.)

As for this notion, he went bankrupt doing a noble thing for beloved Britain--his intention was to personally profit off them by displayng them on his own property; the cost of that was prohibitive and he then tried to get the government by "gifting" them to the nation, which is what happened. So much for the nonsense spouted by R66. And R66, saying a country isn't entitled to keep its cultural patrimony if theity can't force out invaders is about as disingenuous and crass as saying Ukraine, should God forbid it lose its fight against Russia, deserves to have Russia rape and pillage its cultural heritage and sell it to the highest bidder.

Polls are irrelevant when it comes to the cultural patrimony stolen from another country, but as far as polls go, yes, the majority of Brits think the marbles should be returned.

That's funny, r130. Much of my information is taken from the Hitchens book, which I read long ago.

My historical argument perfectly aligns with the one Hitchens put forward.

R131, I did read it, and Hitchens was a big proponent of seeing the marbles returned.

R131, by the way, I have the book handy and can look up anything you like. Shall I?

Did YOU read it?

I not only read it, I was a friend of his.

Go on.

Well, then, R134, you should know how passionately Hitchens felt they should be returned. His book was called, "The Parthenon Marbles: A Case For Reunification."

So YOU go on.

Yes, he did. He was wrong. I must say, he argued his case FAR better than you have argued yours, r135.

"In 1801, ord Elgin, then ambassador to the Ottoman government, had chunks of the frieze sawn off and shipped to England, where he subsequently sold them to Parliament to help pay off his debts.

"This scandal, exacerbated by the inept handling of the scultpures by their self-appointed guardians at the British Museum, remains unresolved to this day. In his fierce, eloquent account of a shameful piece of British imperial history, Christopher Hitchens makes the moral, artistic, legal and political case for reunifying the Parthenon frieze in Athens."

From the book.

He wasn't wrong, R136. He was, of course, completely right. And wha exactly are you doing to further your argument?

Plutocrat immigrant trash defends his new country's looter practice of stealing cultural artifacts and profiting from their display.

Nothing to see here.

Never mind the fact that his own ancestors were basically enslaved by this same country, and had their own culture looted by this very same logic.

The other great thing about him was how wonderful he was with those who disagreed with him . He was fun to chat with. You, on the other hand, are what he would term as a "bore". He was so much fun.

[quote] Occupiers don't own. They occupy. International laws regarding foreign/hostile army occupation were finally codified at the end of the nineteenth century. But a foreign country invading another and remaining is called OCCUPATION by any reasonable definition.

Except they weren’t occupiers, unless you also consider the American Southwest to still be “occupied” territory. The area that is Greece today wasn’t just some occupied foreign territory. It was an integral part of the Ottoman Empire for hundreds of years, having been made part of it after the fall of Constantinople. Even if a part of the U.S., Puerto Rico, for example, were to gain independence, there can be no dispute that the American federal government has until such time legal authority over the island and is not an “occupier”.

He was wrong. He was also a Marxist for an extended period of time, which he later turned against. He was wrong about that too. I loved him. He was an honourable man.

Get her at R140--she "knew" Christopher! You, hunty, are the textbook definition of a bloated bore.

R142 has decreed that, though flawed by socialism, Hitchens was still an honorable man.

Well, I did, and it was a fun time back then, and I'll bet you've never had the kind of fun our Conde Nast gang had in what used to be the Village.

None of you will ever know. You're all too politicised and closed-minded ever to have that kind of fun. It was spectacular.

The real question is what motivation would the Ottoman Empire have to give some rando guy permission to rip the marbles off the Parthenon and take them home. THAT is what makes little sense.

[quote] Whatever. Keep focussing on this and on trying to alter history1984-style. whatever you do.

I guess when a thief comes and steals from my house, wanting my stuff back is 1984-style tactics.

Wonderful, R145, and good for you, but who cares about your jog down memory lane? The fact is Hitchens was on the morally correct side of repatriation of returning cultural patrimony that was sawed off and removed from the country where they were made.

R146, Elgin was thr ambassador to the Ottoman Empire, which had no interest in preserving Greek cultural patrimony.

The Ottomans either killed or raped (or both) everyone they saw, took evey temple they saw and turned it into a mosque. How do you think they invaded such a large area so quickly? Do you understand what an Ottoman invasion was like?

Ultimately, there is no excuse for Britain to hold onto these stolen artifacts. It should graciously return them. Their sculptures. They're not land, they're not people. They're art and they can and should be returned.

*They're sculptures.

He wasn't. I never discussed this topic with him. The last book we ever discussed was Julian by Gore Vidal. We both loved but were also critical of the book, him for some reasons, me for others. This was in the Oak Room after a dinner party and we went into the wee hours. He could put it away. I was SWAYING by the end.

I'm surprised that the British authorities, acting in all their sense of entitlement, haven't requested from Greece the remaining marbles, so that the British Museum can be "reunite" all the marbles, including those that Elgin pilfered.

[quote] The Ottomans either killed or raped (or both) everyone they saw, took evey temple they saw and turned it into a mosque. How do you think they invaded such a large area so quickly? Do you understand what an Ottoman invasion was like?

Oh, BS. Like you were there.

What war isn't full of killing and rape? The Ottoman Empire itself was actually peaceful and well-run except for maybe the last part, when it started breaking down without strong central leadership.

[quote] I'm surprised that the British authorities, acting in all their sense of entitlement, haven't requested from Greece the remaining marbles, so that the British Museum can be "reunite" all the marbles, including those that Elgin pilfered.

If Britain were still a world power, it wouldn't hesitate to

r154 Sure, honey. That why the Ottomans have been famous for rape, kill, convert for all these centuries.

Of course you must know better than the people who were actually there.

Another 12 year old who is proud of never having read any legitimate history book.

[quote] The area that is Greece today wasn’t just some occupied foreign territory. It was an integral part of the Ottoman Empire for hundreds of years,

R141 The operative word is "empire". Greece and Turkey were separate entities. Greece was FOREIGN territory vis-a-vis Turkey. Turkey OCCUPIED Greece. Anything taken by Turkey from Greece was STOLEN, because Turkey was the occupier of a foreign country, Greece, who never permission for Turkey to walk off with whatever the fuck it wanted from Greece.

Your US/Puerto Rico example is erroneous/irrelevant in this instance.

[quote]It should graciously return them. Their sculptures. They're not land, they're not people. They're art and they can and should be returned.

People can't be returned, R150? I beg to differ. One can leave Britain by train, plane or boat. There are lots of ways of moving people safely - indeed it would be much easier to move a human being than to move the Elgin Marbles.

Who gives a fuck about your semantics, r157.

Ottomans owned Greece for 400 years. That is the fact, and it is the only relevant fact here.

By your logic, R159, and anyone else here claiming an invading country "owns" the country it conquers, Germany "owned" Poland and France in WW2 and by extension owned everything in those countries' museums.

[quote] Who gives a fuck about your semantics

R159 Sensible people who understand the difference between the terms occupy and own. Not those who believe that repeatedly mangling/misusing English is "factual".

[quote] That is the fact, and it is the only relevant fact here.

"Facts" are subjective. See your posts for examples.

Well, yes, dear. That is what that means. When Germany rolls over Poland, for example.

That was rather the point of WORLD WAR TWO.

So, dear R162, Germany owned Poland and everything in it. That's what you're saying. Right?

If Germany had held Poland for 400 years, yes Germany owner Poland for 400 years.

Do you have NO understanding of history? Of War?

Jesus Christ the woke generation are pathetically underinformed. I suppose they need to be in order to believe in and spout this level of nonsense.

So, R162, you see nothing wrong with Germany "owning" (your word) a country because, hey, it was able to take it over, so who cares?

So what's your definition of "occupy" vs "own"?

[Quote] Sure, honey. That why the Ottomans have been famous for rape, kill, convert for all these centuries. Of course you must know better than the people who were actually there. Another 12 year old who is proud of never having read any legitimate history book.

And those history books were written by….ah, now you get it

[Quote] That why the Ottomans have been famous for rape, kill, convert for all these centuries

Ooh, wait until you find out what the Catholics did in the Czech Republic…

R164 doesn't seem to acknowledge that the word "occupation" (as in Germany in France during WW2) is what it's called in historical terms, not "ownership." It was not an ownership, it was an occupation, as defined n every history book.

Who gives a sweet greasy FUCK what kind of people the Ottomans or Ancient Greeks were? It really wouldn't matter if they were carved by Satan and Kathie Lee Gifford themselves!

These marbles don't belong in Britain. End of story, fuckwits!

R164 must think the USSR, the U.S., Britain and France "owned" Germany after the war as well.

Ah, I see. So you take the Maoist view that anything written before your time is false.

What an 'historian' you must make.

There was a time of empires and it has passed.

When a country wants something from its history back, give it back.

You just can’t justify keeping it, no matter how you got it.

Extreme right-wing troll alert at R171, where anyone who doesn't agree that invading countries are "owned" by their invaders is a Communist. Aren't you about 50 years past your political relevancy?

Anyway, getting back to the Marbles and not Mao...

R172 The Limeys keep an entire museum full of the shit they've plundered from all over the world. It's massive - one of the world's largest and most valuable collections.

They used to pretend the artifacts were in safer hands by being kept in London for tourism, or kept away from regional wars and theft in developing countries. But ever since Thatcher, they've dropped that thin pretense. They're just keeping shit because they can, and because it makes them feel like they're still a part of a world that's passed them by. They're like their disgraced former king, who lazed around Paris for forty years in a house full of bullshit souvenirs from when his life used to matter.

Ahhh - so if one mentions Mao's crimes, one magically becomes a "right wing troll", r173.

I'm an old school liberal who has been part of left wing NYC life for decades.

However, unlike you, I am neither a liar, a screecher, or an authoritaritarian.

R176, what does Mao have to do with the Parthenon marbles?

He brought it up, dear.

Who brought it up, dear?

Well, let's drop it, shall we, and stick to the topic?

[quote] I am neither a liar

What have I lied about, R176? Please explain. I'll wait.

The history is the history, and no amount of struggle session will change it. Sorry.

I'm still waiting to hear from R176 how and where I "lied." I guess backing up your claims isn't necessary when you throw mud and hope it sticks. For your information, falsely accusing someone of something is itself a lie.

Greece is corrupt, unstable and broke. So is Egypt.

These objects, like it or not, are better off at the British Museum.

People have short memories.

R184 is spouting the saame tired excuse Hitchens in his book shot down years ago.

"I'm sorry, but the Monet I stole from your house looks much prettier and is much safer in my penthouse."

r196, corrected: I'm sorry, but the Monet I just found in the house you left after you voluntarily lay down your arms 400 years ago in order to have a more peaceful life since you were unwilling to fight, looks pretty and is much safer in my Mosque, and anyway you've had it for 400 years

R187, Elgin didn't "just find" the Parthenon marbles, he targeted them for removal in his role as ambassador. The Greeks didn't peacefully "lay down" their arms, they were brutally invaded and conquered by the Ottomans for centuries.

As for how long they were in Greece, where they were meant to be by their makers, I quote from The London Magazine, 1890-91: "The Parthenon Marbles are to the Greek nation a thousand times more dear than they can ever be to the English nation, and what are the 74 years that these dismembered fragment have been in Bloomsbury when compared to the 2,240 years wherein they stood on the Acropolis?"

The anti-Muslim hate in this thread is palpable.

YES, Muslims WERE allowed to sell the Parthenon Marbles, bigots.

Faux-outrage alert at R189.

Greece long ago built a beautiful, state-of-the-art museum, The Acropolis Museum, that overlooks the Acropolis and where the stolen marbles would be housed alongside the remaining marbles that weren't stolen by Britain.

The charge of "safety" has always been a spurious one--the nation that long ago stole them says they would be much safer where they are, as if that's even a claim they have a moral right to make.

The Muslims came, saw, and conquered, as they always do. They rarely have ever kept the artifacts of any conquered country. They usually destroy them on first sight as was done to the Bamayan Buddhas.

Why WOULDN'T the Ottomans give Elgin the marbles? The marbles were offensive to Allah as they portrayed pagan gods.

We're lucky they still exist at all.

NO, R192! Whites are evil, none more so than the Brits, and all people of colour are put-upon angels!

The UK is trying to hold onto the last traces of its disgusting imperialism, with Sunak shamelessly stating it's basically tourism to the British Museum that drives the immoral claim of ownership through a private sale between a corrupt British ambassador in 1801 and the marauding Ottoman invaders who, to put it mildly, weren't interested in Greek history and culture, but more interested in doing business with a (then) "great" imperialist nation.

Cut to before and after WW2, when Britain couldn't keep up or maintain its great country manors or their contents and were reduced to selling to the "great" American robber barons. So much for being able to maintain and secure Britain's own patrimony.

Notice how the pro-Empire set are all style and sentiment, add a dash of subtle intimidation, but deliver precious little substance. That's their MO.

R196, that's because they have no legitimate argument or claim to what belongs to Greece, and they know it, so they just go silent in the face of overwhelming arguments against their support of Britain's imperialist past. I'm surprised Britain didn't steal the American Declaration of Independence when it briefly invaded the United States during the War of 1812 and stick it in the British Museum as an example of its history and its "safeguarding" of historical treasures.

The historical treasures of other countries, I might add.

r196 Notice how the anti-Western set are all sublimation and silencing. Add a dash of not-so-subtle intimidation, but deliver lots of torture and inprisonment. That's their IMO.

Back to Mao, R199? You don't believe in staying on topic, apparently.

The defenders of your side, r200, engage in Maoist tactics.

I would have thought you'd be proud of that, rather than as ashamed as you seem in your response to me.

Let's face it, this sort of thing is solely about money. The Brits and the Greeks both want the Elgin Marbles because they help to generate income from tourism.

There's no true sense of loss from the Greeks because no one is alive from the days when they were moved to the UK. The old adage "you don't miss what you never had" applies here.

Besides, how do you really denote ownership of anything so old, given country boundaries and the ethnicity of people living over the world have changed so many times over history?

I just think if you start this kind of thing, you'd need to start moving all kinds of things all over the world. I'm sure the Greeks have ancient objects that don't technically 'belong' to them as well.

The Elgin marbles only exist because of the British, or more precisely, the Earl of Elgin. When Elgin was in Ottoman controlled Greece he was horrified by the lack of care and disrespect he witnessed by the Ottoman authorities towards the ancient heritage of classical Greece. In fact the Ottomans had work crews crushing and burning the marble of the Parthenon to obtain lime.

It was only due to his intervention that they were saved and the continued destruction halted after the Ottomans realised that there was more money to be made selling Ancient Greek artefacts to wealthy collectors than simply destroying them.

Anyone who even slightly disagrees with the nonsensical leftist bullies on here will be treated to a Struggle Session worthy of the Red Guard's notorious, murderous struggle sessions

[quote] I would have thought you'd be proud of that, rather than as ashamed as you seem in your response to me.

Whatever that is supposed to mean, R201, it seems more proof you have no argument and are latching onto anything.

Back to the topicL: not Mao, marbles.

[quote] There's no true sense of loss from the Greeks because no one is alive from the days when they were moved to the UK. The old adage "you don't miss what you never had" applies here.

R202, that's like saying no Greek has any interest or love of their rich history so they dont care about the marbles. But they do care.

[quote] The Elgin marbles only exist because of the British, or more precisely, the Earl of Elgin. When Elgin was in Ottoman controlled Greece he was horrified by the lack of care and disrespect he witnessed by the Ottoman authorities towards the ancient heritage of classical Greece.

Wrong again. He wanted to cash in by selling tickets to view them in his house.

Sculptures of old white men destroy them!

Yes, r203, and also there were written reports of the people who lived on the Hill taking stone from the Ottoman-bombed Parthenon to make their stoves and floors and such. Elgin came upon this scene, realised that if he did not petition the Ottomans to romove the glorious sculptures, they'd be used in hovels for flooring or whetstones or whathaveyou.

That;s your only point, isn't it, r206: "Sculptures of old white men destroy them". As if it were a computer code. As if you wokists were Daleks (you seem very like Daleks, I must say).

You're only 'solution' is DESTROY DESTROY DESTROY, right?

R207 continues to try to paint Elgin as the savior of the Parthenon sculptures rather than the opportunist he was documented as being.

R205: No he didn’t. Elgin was genuinely horrified by what he saw happening to Ancient Greek sites like the Parthenon. He obtained them at great expense, and although he did display them initially, it was only later due to personal reasons that he sold them to the British government for far less than it cost him.

Elgin did save the marbles, r209.

That is exactly what he did. They would no longer exist but for his intervention. That's why he destroyed his own life in trying to preserve them.

Prove me wrong. Go on. Try.

r210 has read actual, fact based history. Refreshing to see.

R210, it has been documented that Elgin's goal was to sell tickets to the marbles in his house. When tax issues came up, he sold them to the British state. That is not made up.

Neither R211 nor R213 has read Hitchens' book.

Sorry, that was for r211 and R212.

[quote] The Limeys keep an entire museum full of the shit they've plundered from all over the world. It's massive - one of the world's largest and most valuable collections

What's a Limey?

r210 WRONG

Elgin was made a POW by Napolean during his journey home from Greece, and when he finally arrived home a broken man to a heroin-addicted wife, became desperate,

Your Maoist 1984 version of "history' will never float HERE, dear. We know too much.

[quote] The Muslims came, saw, and conquered, as they always do. They rarely have ever kept the artifacts of any conquered country. They usually destroy them on first sight as was done to the Bamayan Buddhas. Why WOULDN'T the Ottomans give Elgin the marbles? The marbles were offensive to Allah as they portrayed pagan gods.

Bamayan Buddhas were destroyed at first site. They were destroyed by a wacko right wing Taliban centuries after Afghanistan turned Muslim.

In most Muslim-led empires, other religions were far more tolerated than in Christian empires. When Jews were forced out of Europe, they were welcomed by Muslim empires in the Middle East

[quote] Greece is corrupt, unstable and broke. So is Egypt.

Hold my beer!

^^^^ Arrgh no edit button

That was for pathetically uneducated 213, not well-educated r210

[quote] Your Maoist 1984 version of "history' will never float HERE, dear.

You've totally discredited yourself with this accusation of Marxism that you continually float and that has nothing to do with the thread. I'm not engaging with someone who deliberately refuses to engage and makes up nonsense.

Have another drink, dear R220.

And then maybe consut the Hitchens book, which mentions Elgin trying to open his house as a museum to charge admission to view the marbles.

R213: He put them on display but he was never going to recoup the huge expense that he laid out to obtain them. What you’re also ignoring is that when he sold them to the British government he refused higher offers from other collectors.

Are you offended, dear? I would have thought you would be proud of Marx, given how much you obviously love him. He hated blacks, did you know? And, despite being Jewish, he hated Jews. He lived off his wife and raped his servant.

Quite a 'hero' you've got there.

[quote] He put them on display

So, R223, you finally admit it! That took a while.

Let me get this right: There are basically two people posting on this thread, arguing with each other and actually believe they will change each other's minds?

The Datalounge has looked into the abyss.

I have R224 on ignore.

Irrespective of his motives, it seems likely that they wouldn't still exist today without him. Let them stay.

r222 I don't see how the story of Elgin trying to display the marbles (which he did in many ways, including a boxing match) in any way changes the hard evidence that he obtained them very legally and properly.

r222 It's not crossed the yardarm where I am. I'm still on tea.

[quote] Irrespective of his motives, it seems likely that they wouldn't still exist today without him. Let them stay.

Good for Elgin. Now give them back.

R225: I’ve never said he didn’t put the on display. It doesn’t change the fact that he went to huge expense to obtain and preserve them after witnessing the continued the continued damage being inflicted against the Parthenon.

r227 Of course you do, dear. That's why you're weighing in on this conversation.

[quote] I don't see how the story of Elgin trying to display the marbles (which he did in many ways, including a boxing match) in any way changes the hard evidence that he obtained them very legally and properly.

What is "legally and properly mean when you're part of the conquering empire?

Can you imagine going to England now and taking the Crown Jewels? Britain, as the conquering empire, did exactly all around the world. The vice versa did not happen. Hmmm..why not?

R229 He bought them off the occupying government standing on an invaded/plundered country. He's no different from those Hobby Lobby heirs who used the Invasion of Iraq to buy artifacts plundered from Iraqi museums.

It wasn't the Turks' property to sell.

And if we stick with his totally-bullshit excuse of preserving the marbles against destruction - meaning he sought to preserve Greek history - then it naturally follows that the marbles should now be returned to the safe and modern Acropolis Museum for the Greek people to share with the world.

[quote] very legally and properly

R229, that's like saying Japan would have done a "very legal and proper" deal with Nazi Germany in Poland over the contents of one of its museums.

The Greeks were left out of this "very legal" and "proper" agreement between Elgin and the Ottomans, so it wasn't legal or proper.

And Elgin broke some of the friezes trying to pry them off the edifice of the Parthenon. The idea that he's a great savior in pilfering wat remained is comical.

Anyway, they should now be returned to the country that never aurthorized their removal to begin with.

Elgin petitioned the Ottoman rulers of Greece for the marbles because he was horrified to see what the Ottomans were allowing to happen to the site. The people living on the hillside beneath the temple were scavenging the marble to furnish their own little hovels. It was being dismantled before his eyes.

The marbles being fought over by a very disingenuous, politicised group of people who would just as soon tear the same marbles down for portraying the sexes as male and female had they somehow survived in situ, would not today exist but for Lord Elgin.

No, R226, there are more than two arguing here, but thanks (?) for playing and for the quote from Shakespeare.

He had no legal right to take them. Just because the thugs running his government and the thugs running the Ottoman occupation force agreed on terms at the time doesn't make it legally binding.

The British Museum Act - aka "Whitey's No Backsies Law" - says the British Museum may not return any of the plundered items in its collection. Ever.

[quote] The marbles being fought over by a very disingenuous, politicised group of people who would just as soon tear the same marbles down for portraying the sexes as male and female had they somehow survived in situ, would not today exist but for Lord Elgin.

R237, the quest to return the marbles to their rightful owners has been a cause IN BRITAIN since they were taken. Did you see the quote from a London magazine in 1890?

He had every legal right to take them, r239, and his legal right still stands today. He asked for, and received permission from the Ottoman rulers of Greece.

[quote] he had every legal right to take them,

R241, he had no legal right whatsoever, except the "right" of plundering spoils.

R241 The Ottomans were an invading force. They had no legal right to sell another country's assets. International law has long since defined this as plundering, and a crime.

The Limey FUCKS don't have a legal leg to stand on, and they know it. The world has hated their destructive empire for centuries, and they've finally run out of excuses and bullets. The world wants its shit back.

There are no more excuses to hold onto what was literally pried off with a crowbar the cultural patrimony of another nation in 1801.

The cultural patrimony of another nation that was being occupied in 1801.

The Elgin Marbles portray sex-specific figures of gods whose legends are sex-specific. Additionally, they were made by a society which heartily embraced slavery. There is every liklihood they were carved by slaves.

Surely, by neo-Maoist standards, they ought to be turned to dust, rather than "returned" anywhere?

No? If not, why not?

Regardless of the number of you people (?) arguing here r238, has anyone convinced someone to see the error of their position?

Do you hope to?

R246, the Elgin Marbles wouldn't have touched down in Athens before the Left would start attacking Classical Civilisation classes, all without a hint of irony. The constant roiling and disorientation is the point, because these are people who believe in nothing.

I don't care if anyone is convinced by what I am saying, r247. I'm not saying what I say for any other reason than I believe it to be true.

It's fucking true, and damn the torpedoes.

As for the disingenuous arguments that Greece can't care for its own posessions, even the British Museum calls bullshit on that. From the British Museum website:

Myth: The British Museum argues that the sculptures in their collection should remain in London because there's nowhere to house them in Greece and that the Greek authorities can't look after them

The British Museum: Neither of these claims is true, and the British Museum doesn't argue this. The Trustees argue that the sculptures on display in London convey huge public benefit as part of the Museum's worldwide collection. Our colleagues in Athens are, of course, fully able to conserve, preserve and display the material in their care. We admire the display in the Acropolis Museum, in which the Parthenon sculptures are complemented by casts of all of those in London and elsewhere, creating as full a picture as is now possible of the original sculptural decoration of the temple.

As an aside from the discussion of returning the marbles -

I (used to) understand the inclination not to restore ancient sites, because I've always been sentimental and a 'purist', if you'd call it that - but as I've gotten older I've changed my mind. If the ancients could see the Parthenon, Colosseum, Pyramids, they'd wonder why we don't restore them with new stone, new carvings, where necessary.

If the same level of love and dedication and craftsmanship is poured in - something new should be of no less worth than something ancient.

But I don't think we 'believe' that we can create that kind of magnificent beauty today, or if we do, it's ho-hum, who cares... so we don't even bother trying, we just stew in mediocrity, and marvel at ruins.

That is not the argument, r250.

The argument is how the marbles were acquired.

And if the British Museum wants to turn on proud son of Scotland Lord Elgin, they might find they've got slightly more fierce opponents than anyone in so-called "Greece"

R252, I'm not defending any positon of the Brityish Museum. Quite the opposite. I'm merely shooting down the contemptible notion that they're safer and better off in London. Even the British Museum says that's a lie.

[quote] so-called "Greece"

So-called Greece, R252? The last thing I heard, Greece goes by the name Greece.

This is an interesting discussion and I think it shows the difference between the kneejerk "the UK must send them back!" response and the more calm and considered viewpoint that maybe it's not that simple.

r253 How can you know that?

Anyway the marbles were legally transferred to the only man who would have them at the time. He saved them. They would no longer exist but for him.

r254 Yes, When I think of "Greece" I think of the lessons taught to me by my Classics tutors, not of the hodgepodge monstosity availiable now on the Grecian Peninsula. Two very different things. After all, Greece was Muslim for 400 years.

R256, you're supposed to believe western civilization was always far advanced and there were no contributions from those "dusky" types. Don't tell them about Spain.

[quote]We show the world their assets, and the world travels to the UK to view them.

All of it stolen.

R255, this is no "kneejerk" response. There has been a movement within Britain since the 1800s to return them.

R256, Greece was taken over by Muslims. It wasn't Muslim. Do you see the difference?

I was quoting from the British Museum website. That's how I know.

And it's a complete guess that "none" of the Parthenon marbles would have survived without the great savior (read opportunist) Elgin.

r257 Hmm. "All of it stolen"? Could you provide examples so I can better understand your meaning?

I'll assume you will not give any examples because activists never do, but I'll give you benefit of the doubt.

Go on. I'm listening.

[quote]Greece was taken over by Muslims. It wasn't Muslim. Do you see the difference?

Are you attempting to do that thing where you want to pretend there's no influence in the art, architecture, food, etc, only when it comes from the east? I bet you're the type who'd use a St. George's cross or a Crusader as your avatar.

r258

Tell me everything you know about Muslim invasions.

I'm willing to bet you will never respond to this post.

I've made it my life to understand Ottoman Invasions, the sheer cruelty of which is unimaginable in the West.

I see r260 is avoiding the question.

R260, I'm saying Greeks did not become Muslims.

Who said they did, r263.

[quote] After all, Greece was Muslim for 400 years.

From R256, R264.

That is a correct and factual statement, r265.

The Ottoman Empire ruled Greece for 400 years. During those 400 years Ottoman laws were enforced upon Greece.

What is it about this that you deny?

Frankly, I couldn't give a shit whether or not Elgin was entitled to take them. The Brits have had the benefit of having them for 200 years and the Greeks want them back. It's reasonable for them to be returned.

Are you saying Greeks were forced to convert to Islam, R266?

Is it that you do not *like* this history, r265?

I am sorry to break it to you, but documented history remains whether you prefer it or not.

Nothing, R259. The British never stole a fucking thing EVER. Now use the word "woke" while you're at it.

[quote]I've made it my life to understand Ottoman Invasions, the sheer cruelty of which is unimaginable in the West.

Jesus fucking Christ, you're really full of hate. Are you seriously trying to diminish cruelty from the west by just telling everyone the "ragheads" were worse?

No, I'm not avoiding the question, you fool. My post came before I saw your question. You're someone who has "made it your life" to be an asshole incapable of perspective. You're the type who will deflect during a discussion on American slavery by telling us Africans/Muslims were worse! If we're having a god damned discussion about AMERICAN slavery, that isn't your cue to say "look over there at the sandn*****s"

No, R269, I'm saying the Greeks themselves were not Muslim, nor did they convert to Islam, which is what you were implying. It has nothing to do with liking history.

r267 The Greeks have no right to them. Anymore then you have a right to a house you sold.

But the Greeks didn't sell them to the British, R272. And no obfuscation on your part changes that fact. Their invaders, the Ottomans, sold them.

Chairman Mao would be proud of r270 and him/her/its Comrades on here.

R258 It sounds like it's largely driven by emotion, though.

r273 The Ottoman empire did, though. I'm sorry you're Grecian History is so hazy. Try to keep up.

Come on, people. The Greeks deserve something for inventing anal sex.

The Greeks didn't sell them to the British. Their invaders, the Ottomans, sold them to Britain. The Greeks were completely left out of it. That's what happened.

Civilisation did NOT begin with the Greeks, r277

Oh Wait, let's check:

[quote] The Ottoman empire did, though.

That's been said countless time here, by me chiefly, maybe you should keep up, R276.

I'll repeat, since you're dim: The Greeks didn't sell them to the British. Their invaders, the Ottomans, sold them to Britain. The Greeks were completely left out of it. That's what happened.

Between the Meghan Markle and Greek Marble threads DL has an infestation of pretentious limey wankers. Muriel please do something.

Hmmmm. It's you who sounds very slow, r290.

We all in this thread completely understood that bit, and here you come, white-knighting for the attention-seeking Dunning-Kruger Brigade.

You must live in D.C. I can think of no other excuse for you.

R282, you're calling me R290, and we haven't even got that far on the thread, so I'd say YOU'RE slow.

^^^So sorry, r280, not r290

Too late, stupid R284.

Hm, r285. I see you would be useless at a place like Oxford, where one has to present one's case and then listen to opposing sides in a weekly tutorial

R281 Why don't you fancy Brits? We're such an attractive lot.

[quote] I see you would be useless at a place like Oxford,

Faggy, smug Brit alert at R286.

Arrogant, entitled, Amerifat alert at r288

Blathering on about Oxford when you don't bother to defend your arguments or pretend you didn't say them, and then can't keep track of what number the posts are. Yeah, you're a genius, R286.

I'll defend them, r290. Be specific.

China should give up Tibet. Turkey should give up Constantinople. Both are occupiers.

I've already pointed them out, R291. So just scroll up and reread them. Did they teach you to scroll at "Oxford"?

Still waiting, r290. I thought you wanted to prove you're "brilliance". Bit slow.

r293 Your presumption is astonishing. I'm not going to re-read your bilge. Either defend your ideas here or back out, as I suspect you will.

I claim to have some vague association with Oxford. I pretend I didn't say things about Greeks and Muslims I clearly said upthread. Then I fuck up and don't know who I'm talking to and pretend that didn't happen, either.

[quote] I'm not going to re-read your bilge.

I'm sure you're not, troll.

To recap: the Greeks didn't sell them to the British. Their invaders, the Ottomans, sold them to Britain. The Greeks were completely left out of it. That's what happened.

r296, I went to Oxford. Both Undergrad and Masters. Both at Balliol.

You?

So what, R299? You're still just some bitch on Daalounge.

And I went to Columbia.

Columbia?

um..ok

That was a great school in the 1950's. We all see Columbia for what it is now. some of you come over here and attempt to take our basic examination papers. To much amusement.

Yeah, it's only an Ivy League school and all.

[quote] We all see Columbia for what it is now.

R301, you precisely the kind of Brit wanker no one likes and everyone mocks. Sorry, your empire is dead. Sorry about Brexit and all.

I'm R301, and this is my idol!

I see this has descended into a 'let's insult the UK' topic.

And I wouldn't mind, but it's funny how people act like wankers while deriding wankers.

Mind you, maybe that's why the arguments exist; they're too similar.

r302 You sound bitter.

Why are you bitter?

What have you to be bitter about when you went to (formerly) great Columbia University?

It used to be one of the great universities. Shame it's lost it's lustre, but I'm sure YOU are such a wunderkind that you can drag it back up into the ranks.

[quote] I see this has descended into a 'let's insult the UK' topic.

Like you insulted Columbia University, R304?

[quote] where one has to present one's case and then listen to opposing sides in a weekly tutorial

This thread is devolving into uncharted waters of cringe.

No, dear, it was me who insulted Columbia, not r304

So, since R305 has more than proven herself to be a pure troll who deflects from the real argument of this thread by picking fake fights to deflect from having no coherent argument on the topic of the thread, I won't any longer satsify their faggy Brit wankery. The takeaway is this: the Greeks didn't sell the Parthenon marbles to the British. Their invaders, the Ottomans, sold them to Britain, way back in 1801, and sold them namely an opportunist Brit wanker named Elgin. The Greeks were completely left out of it. And the British have used every lame excuse to defend their imperialism in this matter. That's what happened.

See ya, fag Brit wanker. You can play superior Baillol professor with yourself.

Columbia really was, once, the greatest university in the world. It was incredibly open-minded and incerdibly inventive

It used to be the envy of Oxford in the 1950's. I've heard my tutors talk about Columbia's former greatness and what a shame and all that.

And then...

R306 I didn't insult any university.

Mock me all you want, r302. I got a decent education and you didn't.

Although you paid 50,000 a year for your poor imitation and I paid 9 thousand pound a year for my genuine article.

R312 you paid £9000 a year for an arts degree? Yikes. My third level education was free.

Yes, Am I meant to be ashamed of an History degree? You sound very much like someone who never went to university - or perhaps it was just one of those Blairite redbrick imitations. Who knows.

The bitterness from r313 is palpable.

Sorry, honey. I genuinely am. You got truly fucked.

Coumbia was once skimming the heights, and is now plumbing the depths.

No R314 that’s not what I was saying, it just seems expensive. No need to get so defensive. FWIW I didn’t go to a university but architects tend to go to an architecture school rather than a university outright. And I didn’t study in the UK either.

R315 uh I’m not that commenter. And I didn’t study in the US, and my third level education was free, as it is to everyone in my country. I’m not bitter at all, but tbh you sound a little yourself.

No shame in not going to university at ALL, r316. Universities seem to be slop shops for indocrination now, so anyone with anything important to do, like architecture, are best left out of it.

No one cares what you did or where you went, r318.

^^^ apologies, that was for vapid r317, not intelligent r318

[quote] You sound very much like someone who never went to university - or perhaps it was just one of those Blairite redbrick imitations.

R319 babe I was answering you lol. Maybe time to put the phone down and breathe x.

Am I the only one keeping this thread on Watch purely out of morbid curiosity to see how much longer these broads will stay at each other's throats?

No one's forcing you, R322.

So what if Elgin "saved them" from certain destruction? That doesn't convey ownership in perpetuity once the crisis has passed.

If my neighbor rescued my dog after my house caught fire, I'd expect him to return the dog once I got home and settled the emergency situation.

When Joan Crawford accepted the Oscar on behalf of Miss Anne Bancroft, the old clam didn't get to KEEP the statue forever (although she sure tried!)

He gave them a safe storage place. Good for him. Crisis over. Send them back where they belong, and where they stood for centuries before this asshole yanked them down with a crowbar.

Rishi is losing his marbles

He is the unwhitewashed history of the thief Elgin and his part in stealing the marbles from Greece, with the eager help of the Turks, who were very willing to placate Britain's imperialism.

It's in English, by the way, with Greek subtitles.

You'll see Tory fave and future failed PM Boris Johnson at the 16 minute mark in the video above, then a student arguing at Oxford in a debate about the marbles.

The Greeks did not become Muslim. The Greeks don't mutilate their males or females.

These works of art belong to the world. They shouldn't be hidden away in a museum where you have to pay and book on the internet to see them.

They should be nailed to the Acropolis for all the world to see.

For free.

The empire strikes back.

The OTTOMAN empire demands them back!

As a Briton, I say let Greece have its marbles back. They've been here long enough and I don't see them as the draw for the museum that others may. There is a reasonable chance that had Elgin not bought/stolen/whatever them, there would be none left today between the indifference of the ruling Ottomans, the same lack of interest of whatever Greek elites were around at the time and the absolute antipathy of the Orthodox church towards the heathen carvings. Nonetheless, the current custodians of Greece seem to care very much about their heritage so back they should go.

As much as any other reason, the British Museum is sitting on a shit ton of antiquities, a lot from this outcrop in the Atlantic itself, that it currently does not have the space to display. Time for those marbles to make way for something that actually matters to us.

[quote] I don't see them as the draw for the museum that others may.

R332 But have you seen them?

[quote]As a Briton, I say let Greece have its marbles back. They've been here long enough and I don't see them as the draw for the museum that others may.

If Greece had possession of the Elgin Marbles, do you think they would choose to keep the marbles or give them to another country based on museum attendance? No country would give away them away based on that and certainly the UK won't.

Ah, R322, your vocabulary marks you as an intelligent and aesthetic expert

[quote] As much as any other reason, the British Museum is sitting on a shit ton of antiquities…

They won’t give them back because it will set a precedent for other antiquities held by the British Museum. For example, in the past the Egyptians have made noises about the return of the Rosetta Stone, so it’s not surprising that the U.K. government wants to try and avoid the issue.

Greece was occupied.  The Ottomans did not own Greece.  They occupied it.  They had no right to sell something that was part of the national heritage of Greece.  And yes, 400 years is a long time.  However, the Parthenon Sculptures are part of Greece's antiquity and part of Greece, the country that is the cornerstone  and foundation upon which Western Civilization was built and that flourishes to this day.

It does not matter that Greece had to fight for independence in the 1800s or that it has had a series of financial setbacks in recent times.  These circumstances do not entitle Britain to keep them.  The Parthenon Sculptures then and now belong in Greece.  For years, Greece was accused of not being able to care for the Parthenon Sculptures if they were to be returned.  Greece then built a state-of-art and one of the leading museums in the world--the Acropolis Museum--to show that it is more than capable of housing these items which are an integral part of the very structure--the Parthenon--for which there is no dispute.  Greece has the right to the entire structure of the Parthenon, not simply the parts of the Parthenon that couldn't be removed, dismantled, sold and carted out of the country.  Greece has a right to ownership of the Parthenon Sculptures just as much as it owns the columns of the Parthenon that remained standing atop the Acropolis.

For whatever advantage the Ottomans or the British may have had when the Parthenon Sculptures were removed, we are now in a time in history when wrongs need to become right, when the civil society of Great Britain should not have the label of thief hung above its name.  Ill-gotten items must be returned to their rightful owner. The very core of the Parthenon Sculpture are Greek.  They are not Ottoman.  They are not British.  They are Greek.  The Parthenon Sculptures may be part the world's history, but their very essence is the heritage of the Hellenic people.  The Parthenon Sculptures belong in Greece for all eternity.

With the Coronation coming up, will Rishi demand to keep the Stone of Scone?

The Brits have no ground to stand on! It was an American that had to stir up interest in Shakespeare’s Globe Theatre. They were too busy stealing the culture of other countries to attend to their own.

Go and fuck yourself, r337. The issue isn’t just the Elgin Marbles, it’s also the fact that Museums throughout Europe and the United States are stocked with antiquities from numerous countries and cultures. If the boot was on the other foot and say the Metropolitan Museum of Art was under fire for refusing to return something to another country then I’m sure your opinion would be different.

However, because it’s the Brits, asswipes like you feel you can jump on your high horse.

Let's not lose sight of the fact that those who believe in reason, history and rule of law can celebrate that Sunak has done the right thing by stating that the UK's Elgin Marble will remain in the UK, and has not given in to the demands of the irrational mob. So the nutjobs can demand all they want that the UK should give away its priceless sculptures from the Parthenon, but it ain't happening.

[quote] If the boot was on the other foot and say the Metropolitan Museum of Art was under fire for refusing to return something to another country then I’m sure your opinion would be different. However, because it’s the Brits, asswipes like you feel you can jump on your high horse.

R340. No, I wouldn't feel differently especially if it were something so significant to world history and the heritage of the originating country. Besides, you don't know how I would feel. You are just screaming out in defiance with no reason to defend or justify your anger. I like England very much having visited there many times from the U.S. But the Parthenon Sculptures belong to Greece and belong in Greece at the state-of-the-art Acropolis Museum. I wrote a lengthy post at R337 offering reasons and justifications why I feel the way I do. You offered nothing but a vulgar, obnoxious, temper tantrum accusing me of something that is not true and defending England for no apparent reason.

I'd like to have Rishi's marbles bouncing off my chin while sucking him off.

[quote]the UK's Elgin Marble will remain in the UK, and has not given in to the demands of the irrational mob.

R341. The Elgin Marbles are called the Parthenon Sculptures, and they don't belong to the UK. They belong to Greece. And Greece is not a demanding, irrational mob. The Parthenon Sculptures are an integral part of the Greek heritage, part of one of the most important structures in the history of the world and a monument to Western Civilization. The Parthenon Sculptures do not belong in England simply because they were allowed to be carted away. The Parthenon Sculptures are just as much a part of the Parthenon as the columns that secured the Sculptures to the building and that remain standing today. The Parthenon and the Sculptures are one and the same.

r344, reason and the rule of law have carried the day and the Elgin Marbles will not given away by the UK.

^^The battle is not over. The Parthenon Sculptures will return to Greece. Sunak is not the final word and neither are the current British courts..

To all the holier-than-thou Americans in this thread bashing Britain, calling them looters, thieves etc….let me ask you this: Do you never consider that you live on stolen land, that you are occupiers, that you are the ones who benefitted from colonialism? You are not natives in America, you pounded the local people into virtual inexistence, and have the nerve to call the British looters and thieves.

r346, it's true that the UK government and people must be vigilant in defending their rightful ownership of the Elgin Marbles and keeping them where they belong in the UK.

Perhaps I would be more convinced by the soaring rhetoric of the leftist paeans to the Marbles' unique and unbreakable link with the Greek people if leftists didn't also believe that Western Civilisation is evil anyway and that indigenous Europeans (like the Greeks) are not entitled to their own nations and cultures but must instead turn them over to newcomers.

If circumstances were different, I can see the case to be made for Britain giving the Marbles to Greece (not "back" to Greece, mind), purely out of goodwill, but this push is being pushed in Britain by anti-British troublemakers whose priority is to hurt Britain rather than do justice to Greece.

That's pretty hilarious that R347 is defending the biggest landgrabber and thief in history. The UK has had its tentacles in every country on earth over the millennia.

Anyway, the belligerants here call the Parthenon Marbles the "Elgin Marbles" because they think it grates here, the way Trumpers act, but of course their stupidity in this matter (among many issues) is such that the British Museum itself, on its webpage, refers to them as the Parthenon Marbles, never the Elgin Marbles. So be stupid and arrogant, limey wankers. The MAGAts in the US would love you because you think and look and act just like they think and look and act, only you don't have the red baseball caps.

Losers.

[quote] the belligerants here call the Parthenon Marbles the "Elgin Marbles" because they think it grates here

People refer to them as the Elgin Marbles because they are the Elgin Marbles. Saying otherwise is like saying that we should call Presidents Day “Washington’s Birthday” since that is its “official” name.

Really, R351? So the British Museum should revert to calling them that, even though they are, indeed the Parthenon Marbles, as it rightly calls them? I guess you think you're smarter than the British Museum. Your mention of the presidents' birthdays is a stupidly poor analogy, by the way.

The UK loves other countries' stuff and has helped itself to many artifacts over the centuries. Attached is a long list of things it's stolen from other places.

I guess Judi Dench must be considered one of those screaming nuts who support the return of the marbles to Greece where they belong, because this octogerarian Dame Commander of the British Empire and beloved Brit believes the Parthenon Marbles should be returned, as do many, many Brits, not just "woke leftists" as some liars here pretend.

And they’ll always be the Elgin Marbles.

Yeah, R353--if you live in the 1800s. Meanewhile, the British Museum refers to them as the Parthenon Marbles.

But you go, honorary British Trumper.

And thanks to Sunak, the Elgin Marbles will stay where they belong in the UK.

Sunak is the temporary PM. He has no more authority to keep there than any other PM who's espoused the same line. It won't be up to a single PM, honorary MAGAt at R355.

More than half the UK believe they should be returned. It's inevitable that it will happen--some say by 2030.

As long as any PM keeps the Elgin Marbles in the UK where they rightfully belong, it’s a good thing.

Catching up on this thread the "return the marbles" guy is just trolling you.

You're gonna lose them, tosser R358. And I'll be laughing very hard when that happens.

It’s good that the British people can engage in the academic exercise of discussing giving away the Elgin Marbles as a gift to Greece, while keeping them permanently in the UK for many future generations to see them at the British Museum.

There's more than one of us here, R359.

I have no doubt that they will be given to Greece eventually, by a Labour government. Maybe not the next one (at least not early on in their term) as they are still uneasy about being openly anti-British, but once the demographic shifts do what they were intended to do and give Labour an entrenched majority, it'll be goodbye Elgin Marbles, hello Glupta tou Parthenona!

Invaders don't care about the riches and heritage of the country they invade. So, of course, the Ottomans were fine with giving away Greek antiquities.

And now, of course, the Greeks want them back.

Give them back.

When I went to the British Museum last summer, there were actually very few people in the gallery displaying the marbles. The marbles are also just stuck on a the walls, like in a ribbon around the room. It's just a big white room. Considering their fame, I expected them to be displayed more artistically and more people in that gallery.

R363, it was your hero BoJo and the lamentable last PM Liz Truss that will make an entrenched Labour majority possible. The present guy is a bookmark PM.

That poll upthread shows 53 percent of the British think the sculptures should be returned. All they are Labour, R363?

*Are they all Labour

[quote] The present guy is a bookmark PM.

I assumed that as well when he took power, but he seems to be doing well in office. He just might surprise us.