Murder on the Orient Express (1974)

Lumet wanted an all star cast. To achieve this, he call his old friend Sean, who happened to be the biggest star in 1973. Sean agreed, then Michael York agreed. Then Redgrave, then Bergman. Then Perkins, Bisset, Gielgud, and Betty Bacall followed.

Paul Dehn was an excellent screenwriter.

Richard Rodney Bennett's score is TO DIE FOR.

Betty Bacall as Lady Macbeth is the biggest mystery

I saw the first half hour of it and I was bored to tears.

Never tried to watch it again.

R4 how/why were you bored?

Ingrid Bergman is amazing in this. Well-deserved Oscar.

Can someone explain the ending? Poirot really didn't solve it, did he?

Oh, *SPOILER ALERT* (almost forgot)

I love Albert Finney. I’ll watch anything he’s in.

I’ll alert the media.

One of the best first scenes ever.

How to get the exposition in up front while filling the audience with suspense and dread.

Terrible adaptation. One of the worst. Up there with the Kenneth Branagh trash.

[QUOTE] Can someone explain the ending? Poirot really didn't solve it, did he?

There wasn’t just one murderer. They all did it.

Thanks, r12. I assumed by the ending that Poirot was speculating they all did, but he didn't know who it actually was.

r13 Correct. Everyone though was acknowledging each other with sly smiles, winks and a champagne toast. In a way Poirot let everybody off the hook, even though he would wrestle with his conscience(or words to that effect), something he would do again.

Vanessa Redgrave was at her prettiest in this film. I wonder if she and Connery "did it"?

It was nice to see Wendy Hiller after so long a time.

Sean Connery "harrumph-ed" his way through this with style.

Michael York was Roman concubine beautiful.

I actually felt bad for Ingrid Bergman, she'd always been front and center in her films. I wonder why she took this throw-away role?

Lauren Bacall was, as usual, Lauren Bacall.

John Gielgud was practicing for "Arthur," although he didn't realize it at the time.

Albert Finney was OK.

Anthony Perkins couldn't quite let "Psycho" go.

Richard Widmark had always terrified me, with or without an old lady in a wheelchair.

Rachel Roberts looked and sounded like she just stepped out of Buchenwald.

Jacqueline Bisset looking appropriately dewy.

Martin Balsam should've drawn on his NYC background in order to have had a better Italian accent. But he still made me weak in the knees.

I was getting Ingrid Bergman to sign a program and I congratulated her on the nomination, r6. She was very humble about it.

[quote]I actually felt bad for Ingrid Bergman, she'd always been front and center in her films. I wonder why she took this throw-away role?

She originally was cast as the Princess, r14, but she preferred the role of Greta.

Thanks for the info r16. Hiller was so good as the Princess I'm glad Ingrid switched.

Do any of our Hollywood experts here feel that Bergman's win was for her body of work, even though she had 2 Best Actress Oscars by that time?

Lauren Bacall was the one who really stood out for me, this may be her best performance. So many little moments that seem ordinary, until you watch the film again!

And for years and years, I thought Wendy Hiller had been very old and disabled by a stroke when she made the film, and I assumed she was in her 80s. I was wrong, she was in her sixties and in good health when she did the movie, she was just playing a frail old lady who'd had stroke. She fooled me!

Excellent film. Far, far, far superior to that awful Kenneth Branagh as Poirot remake that came out in 2017 with Johnny Depp as the one being killed.

I think everyone has at least one moment to really shine:

Finney's 25 minute denouement is incredible to watch.

Balsam is okay. I like when he argues with the guests when the train stops.

Bacall played a loud and obnoxious American, only to be outed as the greatest tragic actress of day.

York and Bisset are fucking beautiful in this.

Redgrave winks and smiles like she is in on some inside joke with everyone else.

Connery is authoritative. points for Connery punching Cassel.

Cassel's crying scene gets me. so much pain. So raw and real.

Perkins is 100% closeted and inspiring.

Hiller's interrogation scene is always fun to watch.

Roberts gives off big dick Nazi energy.

Gielgud and Bergman could have played Poirot and the movie would be just as good if not better.

Widmark's poison death is the weakest scene. A little awkward.

R20 Cassel’s scene was heartbreaking and poignant.

I saw Wendy Hiller on stage as Lady Bracknell at least 12 years after this film, so she still had plenty to give. Oddly, this was several years after I saw Judi Dench in the role, who is young enough to be her daughter.

Wendy was to play the Dowager Empress in the Natalie Wood Anastasia production at the Ahmanson in 1982.

Did you make a fake advertisement for “Anastasia” and then photoshop it onto a modern bus?

Not I, r24. It was to be Natalie's stage debut.

Again?

I loved the opening montage of the facts around the Armstrong case. Effectively eerie.

The scene of the passengers all arriving to the station and the train pulling out to that score? Wonderful!

Other than that, I don’t really warm to this film the way I did with Death on the Nile. But it is well done.

R27 I agree.

Murder on the Orient Express is the best Christie film. It is well written, well acted, and elegant.

Death on the Nile is more watchable.

Evil Under the Sun is a comedy.

[quote] I could not find a DL thread after searching.

You didn't look very hard. There are multiple threads about this movie. Unsurprisingly, since it's DL catnip.

Didn't Bergman do her scene in one take, if I remember rightly?

30 replies and not a goddamn mention of the spectacular production and costume design of Tony Walton? Didn't he even win an Oscar or two for this film?

RRB

I love the term “tragic actress”! Do we have any around today? I can’t think of anyone.

R33 Doubtful, but Linda Arden was!

Bacall?

[quote] One of the best first scenes ever.

And the music is really disturbing. Physically disturbing.

[quote] Rachel Roberts looked and sounded like she just stepped out of Buchenwald.

That really made me laugh out loud. She did look like a concentration camp matron with that practical haircut.

Her photographs help her to pass the time.

Like all of the travelogue Poirot stories, MOTOE is completely preposterous.

^Really, you think so?

Nicholas Clay’s ass (in a black bathing suit) and feets in Evil Under the Sun were even hotter than Maxwell Caulfield’s bare ass and feets on stage in Salonika around the same time.

R40, in response to:

[quote] elegant, witty, and classic whodunnit

The only thing that I like about the remake is Depp's cartoonish portrayal of the murder victim. In the original movie he is a businessman who is hiding something. In the remake he is a shifty, greasy, mumbling pimp with dead eyes. I think at one point Depp points a gun at Poirot's face, just to show what a bad guy he is.

Why she not do duology with Murder on the Occidental Express?

I loved this movie and like to watch it around Christmas time. Wendy Hiller was so fun to watch. I wished her character was in more scenes. No way is it boring. It's a clever, amusing movie, slow-paced to build tension. .

It's the only way to travel!

Lord Marchmain approves

[quote] Evil Under the Sun is a comedy.

I am a bad gay, because I don't really get this one as much as others. It's like, where Death on the Nile pitched the over-the-top comedic aspect just right and balanced it well, Evil Under the Sun went a bit too far in one direction. I mean believe me, I wore the VHS out playing the scenes with Nicholas Clay's arse bulging out of his speedo like any other red-blooded teenage boy, but I could never quite enjoy it as much. I haven't seen it for years though, I am very keen to watch it again as an adult.

I love both versions of the film.

Ingrid Bergman was sublime in the 1974 version.

I thought Michelle Pfeiffer was the stand out in the remake.

The use of “arse” is a dead giveaway on DL. The Brit equivalent of “pee.” You can say ass, just like we can say piss. It’s not too difficult.

Strunk—thank you.

It's ok for a Brit talking about a Brit actor in a Brit dominated film to use the word 'arse', R50. And the work isn't the equivalent of 'ass', which is a much more 'acceptable' term - the Brit equivalent would really be 'bum'. It's 'ass' that is actually the euphemism for the much more vulgar 'arse'.

I saw the film in a theater, when the film was first released. I remember that, during the opening credits, the music swelled when Richard Widmark’s name came on. I thought “ Aha…..that’s significant “. Little did I know how significant, or in what way.

Isn't there some charming moment near the beginning of the film in the train station tea room and the the orchestral combo is playing "On the Good Ship Lollipo?"

Do we think in real life Vanessa Redgrave and Sean Connery were fucking? Two celebs who couldn't be more different but they had sizzling sexual chemistry in this film, and without a heavy love scene.

[italic] The calls were coming from inside the train ?

It would have been a neat twist if the murdered person was completely innocent and it was just a case of mistaken identity. Then everyone would have had to live with that on their conscience.

Exactly R52. Plus "ass" is an animal.

Also, R50, you look foolish when you assume - I'm not British. "Arse" is more common outside of the US in general.

R57 A case of mistaken identity seems unlikely given how carefully they planned the murder. They hunted this guy down.

That disgusting moustache makes me nauseous. In all the filmed versions. It looks like a dried out piece of turd.

R60 I thought Finney's was the best

Well, that's the weakness of the whole plot, how were the conspirators absolutely sure they had the right man? How was it proven beyond a reasonable doubt that he was guilty, or was it proven at all? Or were the co-conspirators taking the word of someone who'd become delusional?

R35 I think that's Eva Illegalalien.

To ask those questions, r62, you clearly don't know the plot. And the victim was an internationally famous businessman, often photographed.

I've read the book many times and seen the movie umpteen, R64, I know the plot. And those questions are never explained in either the book or the film!

But as the conspirators are known to have inside informants, I suppose they got some real info.

R58 you may be the real arse. I did not assume that you are British. I wrote that “arse” is a Britishusm. Which is how it spread to other English-speakiers outside of the U.S.

And I type-o often

[quote]and seen the movie

Oh, dear!

I was 14 when MOTOE came out and was living in London for a short period. It was showing at the movie theater near where we were living and so I could walk down to watch it. I had been reading a LOT of Agatha Christie (buying them at the antiques markets) and so was THRILLED when this came out (should have known then that I was QUEEN!) I saw it several times and then bought the album - which I STILL have - a collector's item. I also asked the movie theater if I could have the movie posters and they let me have them and I put them up in my room. How could my parents have NOT known I was a HOMO?

Does anyone prefer the Japanese version?

No one

How about the Suchet/Poirot version?

The Suchet version unfortunately is totally lacking in glamour. It could be a bunch of commuters on the Metro North traveling up to Bridgeport.

Sure, R66. If you need it to be so.

R73 haha so true. The 1974 is definitely the best.

I was about 4 1/2 when the movie came out & saw it in the theater with my parents. The opening scenes of the kidnapping with that creepy music horrified me back then, & it still stays with me: I have goosebumps just typing this. I remember crying, but my parents shushed me, & I paid attention to the film, I’m sure some of it went over my head, but I loved it, & it started me on a lifelong love of Christie & murder mysteries in general. I’ve probably seen it 7 or 8 times. I don’t get the disdain a lot of people have for Finley, I think he’s sublime. He was only 38 at the time!

I think this is probably one of, if not them greatest casts ever assembled.

No, Finley is absolutely terrible.

In David Suchet Poirot version, after Poirot reveals the truth of events and his seeking justice for the dead man, the suspects tell Poirot that they had originally relied on justice, that there was proof that the villain was responsible, that he was arrested and tried (I think). But due to corruption and intimidation, he was not convicted and went free. They had been denied justice (that they had wanted and expected) for the victims.

This then was their reason for their actions. They had believed that justice would be served, but they were cheated because the known killer was freed. They decided to take justice into their own hands.

I'm so surprised that the Pera Palace Hotel in Istanbul hasn't been mentioned so far.

It's a beautiful and historic hotel with Kemal Atatürk staying there and having a museum.

Well worth a visit. I got absolutely slaughtered in the beautiful cocktail bar years ago.

The star of the show is Tony Walton’s costume and set designs.

It’s kind of a plodding movie, script wise.

I have an LP of the score. Beautiful

The first twenty minutes or so of the movie are wonderful, scary and provide a mood that keeps the rest of it going, even the lesser parts. The soundtrack is very important to it all.

Lauren Bacall was miscast, and her glamorous clothes were all wrong. It is not important for the overall ensemble and i end up liking her in it. The only good thing about the Kenneth Branagh remake was Michelle Pfeiffer, who was much better (being a better actress) but in a different movie (she sings as well). The movie didn’t make her shine, focusing instead In Poirot’s action moves.

Ingrid Bergman was extremely clever, i think it is a lesson to acting, an actress of her standing choosing a lesser role and then winning an oscar for it. She also gave us one of the better and more generous speeches of all time.

Having seen the movie countless times I can’t really decide about Finney. But is performance is such an intrinsic part of the movie, with lots of anger, that it contributes a lot to the peculiar feeling of the movie.

Books wise i prefer Death on the Nile, which as a dramatic soul i find superior. But the adaptation, though it had wonderful moments, was not on part to Murder on the Orient Express.

^ preventive oh dear for the typos

I watched it today after not having seen it in about 30 years. It’s decent entertainment but perhaps a tad overrated by Datalounge.

[quote]Lauren Bacall was miscast, and her glamorous clothes were all wrong. It is not important for the overall ensemble and i end up liking her in it.

When I first saw the movie as a kid, I kept thinking: "but isn't Mrs Hubbard meant to be fat?" I don't know if I made that up, but I imagined an overweight and kind of ridiculous woman for the role.

I think I actually preferred Michelle Pfeiffer in the role over any of the others, not that she looked like my idea of the character either. And I really am not that keen on that movie on the whole.

I thought Bacall was great

Don't really get why some posters are surprised by Bergman choosing to play the governess instead of the Princess. Though the character of the Princess is obviously of a higher rank than a governess, any actor reading the script would see that the governess has much better material.

Also, you may prefer whichever Christie mysteries you like, but please realize that Murder on the Orient Express had a solution unlike anything ever written before in a whodunnit. Devilishly clever and original, impossible to foretell and mind-blowing in its time (and still is for my money), much like her unique solution to The Murder of Roger Ackroyd a few years earlier. While Death on the Nile may be great (love the film, the book not so much), there was nothing particularly special about the plotting and solution.

One of the cool things about the plot of MOTOE is that as you watch you obviously will see all the suspects acting suspiciously or whatever. That is par for the course in murder mysteries, to have the audience thinking: "could it be him? or her? or him?" etc.

But in most murder mysteries, once the solution comes out you wonder why half those characters were pulling those expressions - it doesn't always hold up on rewatch. But in this story EVERYONE has a reason for looking the way they do, and rewatches work well for that reason.

R85, you are correct in the sense that Mrs Hubbard is supposed to be a loud, nouveau riche American, fatness maybe is implied as shw is not supposed to be an elegant woman.. Pfeiffer is not the ideal part either but she tried to give a vulgar vibe to her role and gave some pathos to the role. Bacall didn’t change her petrified self

R87, in the books it is a very lesser part. See both other adaptations, Penelope cruz is forgettable . It doesn’t compare, the Princess, in the ensemble, has a more prominent role. Bergman turned it around.

Also, I understand what you mean about Murder in the Orient Express being radical in terms of an original solution to crime fiction, especially at rhe time.. I still think Death on The Nile is a superior book in term of character. MiTOE is ultimately a challenge, a perfect mechanism devised to shock and surprise , Death on The Nile has much more, Jacqueline is a wonderful character (ok, mary, i know).

I'm going to assume Ingrid Bergman read the screenplay before she decided which role she wanted to play. Her choice wasn't necessarily based on the book.

[quote]fatness maybe is implied as shw is not supposed to be an elegant woman

Ahh, I think I remember why I thought she was fat now. At some point Poirot or Bouc describes her, and a couple of the other women (Greta Ohlsson, and... someone else? the German lady's-maid maybe) as being "too broad" to have masqueraded as the mysterious conductor on the night of the murder.

I thought Pfeiffer was awful in the remake. Career nadir, and I like her.

Johnny Depp as the villain gave the only performance that registered for me.

I thought Bacall was brilliant. On first viewing she seems irritating until the end, where she's all cold steel. But if you see it as many times as I have, you can see all these flashes of steel under the false annoying persona, and at the end, well, at the end you see why they hired a Movie Star! She has enough star quality to dominate the has couple of scenes, even when she's just sitting there listening quietly to Poirot, she dominates the screen. And then she reigns over the ending, dominating the screen as all these much better actors walk past her.

I really hated the new Brannaugh version, because fucking Brannaugh had to write in a sort of "win" for his character! He couldn't stand to see his Poirot back down, he had to beat his chief opponent on a personal level, when the opposite is a much more satisfying conclusion. There's a tacit admission that "Mrs. Hubbard" had every right to take the steps she had, and that the happiness in Christie's ending came not from Poirot's triumph, but in justice being served. Fuck Brannaugh!

The toasts/curtain call...

Only DL would discuss Betty Bacall out of stars such as Albert Finney, Ingrid Bergman, Sean Connery, Vanessa Redgrave, Anthony Perkins, Jacqueline Bisset, Michael York, Wendy Hiller, Richard Widmark, and the legendary Sir John Gielgud

I prefer Peter Ustinov's Poirot. I find this movie dark and dull, and I always like Sidney Lumet.

Sean Connery: HOT daddy Michael York: HOTTIE - though he looks like he has a small dick Albert Finney: smarty pants that is sexy in some weird way... Martin Balsam: fattie Anthony Perkins: 'mo John Gielgud: kinda sexy bald guy Richard Widmark: sexy in a str8 kind of way

This is R97 - sorry I f7cked up the formatting...

R93, i totally agree that Bacall gave a good performance, My point about her being miscast is in respect of her physical aspect and clothing , both more elegant than as iit was written in the book (a loud, vulgar, typical American woman, sort of like a nowadays Karen if you will). In physical terms, Ingrid Bergman the time would have been more appropriate, for example.

R95, Bacall is one of the more relevant roles in the story. Almost everybody is perfect but a lpt pf them don’t have much to do (Bisset for instance, outside looking fabulous).

R97 Finney was HOT when he was young. He just likes to eat and drink way too much and he truly didn’t give a fuck - which in itself is also attractive.

"My point about her being miscast is in respect of her physical aspect and clothing , both more elegant than as iit was written in the book"

Perhaps that was meant to be yet another clue that she wasn't what she pretended to be. And I totally disagree that Bergman could have thought about the role, she couldn't play annoying to save her life, or American.

But you're right, a lot of the actors in this huge ensemble had little to do, for instance Connery and Redgrave play extremely minor characters and don't even get any good scenes. Bergman, Gielgud, and Hiller at least get to make an impact with their scenes and backstories, and York and Bissett look so good that they stand out in spite of little screen time, but the two biggest stars in the ensemble cast are really sidelined.

R101 In 1974 Connery was the star, I the rest follow in this order:

Ingrid Bergman was Ingrid Bergman

Michael York was fresh off of The Three Musketeers

Anthony Perkins was and always will be Psycho

Lauren Bacall was the Old Guard of Hollywood

Jacqueline Bisset and Vanessa Redgrave were hot young things

Richard Widmark was known for westerns

Sir John Gielgud was a legend, but more known in England than internationally

Albert Finney was more known in England than internationally too

Wendy Hiller and Rachel Roberts were character actresses

Martin Balsam was a character actor

Jean Pierre Cassel was a good French actor, not known internationally either

[quote]Albert Finney was more known in England than internationally too

Tom Jones (1963) made Finney a star, r102.

In the Japanese version, everybody murders Yoko Ono and the cops give them a slap on the back.

Connery and Redgrave were luxury casting for sure but it was great having them on board.

In the book, don't those 2 characters have a clandestine early love scene in a secluded alleyway outside of the train station that Poirot overhears (but nor knowing yet who they are)? I believe it was done in the Suchet version, didn't see the Branagh version - was it done there? I just can't remember if Lumet includes that scene but, if so, I can't quite picture it.

Much is made by Christie about how all the suspects seemingly come from different worlds, different countries, different classes, and it's what disguises from Poirot the fact that they all could be conspiring together.

R102

[quote] Richard Widmark was known for westerns

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.

Maybe you know him from those kinds of movies, but those who have followed his career love him for "Don't Bother to Knock", "Halls of Montezuma", "Red Skies of Montana", "Panic In the Streets", "Pickup on South Street". And above all and foremost, the unforgettable Johnny Udo in "Kiss of Death".

We were desperate to secure an autographed grapefruit from Richard Widmark's garden.

r93:

B-R-A-N-A-G-H

I saw it when I was in high school. The theater was packed so we had to sit in the front row. Bergman had a few lines that were very funny. I actually thought Bacall was one of the weaker ones in the cast.

Apparently they first offered the Countess Elena role to Helen Mirren, but talks broke down over nudity.

I remember first reading this tale long ago while I was in high school. Long before the movie.

I still remember the enjoyment and puzzlement as I kept considering and then rejecting each suspect.

Cleaning off my bookshelves lately, I was reminded of that long ago first encounter when I found the book I had read long ago. The title on my book is "Murder in the Calais Coach", published by Pocket Books, Inc. Inside front pages indicate it comes from the 20th printing December 1965.

R111 did you devour more of Christie?

Alternative Cast:

Poirot- Paul Scofield

Mrs. Hubbard- Barbara Stanwyck

M. Bianchi- Marcello Mastroianni

Greta Olsson- Liv Ullmann

Countess Andrenyi- Helen Mirren

Pierre- Jean-Louis Trintignant

Colonel Arbuthnot- Oliver Reed

Beddoes- Alec Guinness

Princess Dragomiroff- Brigitte Helm

McQueen- Sam Waterston

Mary Debenham- Julie Christie

Hildegarde Schmitt- Janet Suzman

Mr. Rachett- Burt Lancaster

Count Andenyi- Klaus Maria Brandauer

R112, funny you should ask.

I have been doing a major redistribution and sorting and shelving of books, since some of the books had been double or triple tracked on my standard bookcases. I was surprised and delighted to discover these old paperbacks in the back of the shelf. It was there I discovered "Murder in the Calais Coach", along with "And Then There Were None", also published by Pocket Books (15th Printing May 1965). Both of these books were slightly smaller (4 &1/8 x 6 & 1/4) than what was to become a more standard size PB (paperback). The price printed on the front of each of these 2 was 50 cents. I suspect I bought them at the large downtown Kroch's and Brentano's book store on Wabash in Chicago.

Besides these 2 there were 14 other Christie paperbacks on the back shelf. I also have more recently bought copies of "Death on the Nile", "Evil Under The Sun" and a couple others.

R114 do you prefer Poirot or Marple?

The first play I ever saw was at this theatre in the early '60s. It was Ten Little Indians.

R115, As far as video goes, I love David Suchet. And thanks to him for pushing so that all the Poirot stories and books were finished before they stopped. I have my favorites that I've seen many times - Sad Cypress is one. Also Poirot's Christmas. And his "Death on the Nile" and Evil Under the Sun".

Love Hickson's Miss Marple. Did not like Geraldine McEwan as Marple. No reflection on the actress's talent, but she played Jane Marple as Perky! I never saw Miss Marple as Perky. As for MacKenzie, she to me gave of "official" vibes, almost as if she was a professional detective.

Add to that they interjected Jane Marple into mysteries where she does not appear. Case in point is "The SIttaford Mystery". An interesting puzzle in the book but no Marple. In fact, inserting McEwan's annoying perkiness detracted from the mystery along with changes to the plot.

As for Poirot, I was distracted by Finney's makeup for the movie role. A terrific actor, but knowing it was him with all that makeup to try to match the famous character - it was too much.

I hate it when people making these videos use the opportunity to mutate that story into something they want. Even changing the murderer. I've seen some of these more recent BBC version and was irritated by the screenwriter's obvious disdain for Christie. I think it was that new (awful IMO) version of "Witness for the Prosecution". In the extras, the actors and participants were asked if they had read Christie and the only one who delightedly answered "Yes" was Kim Cattrall. The bitchy screenwriter sneered with her reply "We NEVER had ANYTHING like THAT in OUR House". Bitch.

For a more positive view, watch this video found as an extra on the "Witness For the Prosecution" (Tyrone Power, Marlene Dietrich, Charles Laughton) DVD where Billy Wilder talks about Agatha Christie and Raymond Chandler.

There's a stage version of MOTOE that's definitely subpar. Characters are combined and eliminated, and the whole thing feels unnecessarily streamlined just to reduce costs.

R117 I remember you posting that comment about Phelps before, I was not happy that she was so snobbish. I did like her version of And Then There Were None.

R105, that scene is in the 1974 movie too, pretty much word for word from the book. That whole scene: "Not now - later - when it's over - then - maybe" or something similar, is what you mean, yes?

I remember the first time I read the book as a kid. For a story that in one way follows a simple path of crime - interviews/investigation - solution, it also was kinda delightfully creepy. Cries in the night, mysterious people seen on the train who seem to vanish into thin air... it really was the perfect step up in reading as a child from the Enid Blyton type mysteries to something a bit more adult.

R101, i was not suggesting Ingrid Bergman for the role, i was suggesting that her body was more a Mrs Hubbard type, in other words, portly. Mrs Hubbard/Linda Arden is a grandmother, some time has passed since her granddaughter being dead and she is a celebrated Shakespearean actress. At fifty, Lauren Bacall, thin, elegantly clothed is miscast as Mrs Hubbard but she did well.

Sarah Phelps adaptation of And Then There were None is the best and, I think, the only one faithful to the book. But it all went downhill from there. She admits she didn’t know Christie but in interviews also says she was very much surprised how much darker the books were than her idea of cozy. She didn’t have to mangle them though.

R120, i did exactly that evolution, Enid In my 6 to 9, Agatha Afterwards. I think it is a pretty common step up of a certain generation. I think i started eRlier because i was really a pretty intense reader.

The idea of a "cosy Christie" is funny because on the one hand they are the kind of enjoyable book you can read on a wet Sunday afternoon with a cup of tea... but my god she didn't shy away from the dark side of human nature at all. A lot of Christie reviewers/fans these days have spoken about their issues with the stories being called "cosy".

I was the same as you, R122. Also very intense reader, who got into my parent's bookshelves as soon as I could. I always felt I wanted to get away from the kids stuff as quickly as possible, for some reason. Read a lot of stuff too old for me probably, but it was fantastic, and my parents were great at letting me read what I liked and watch adult movies too, just checking in every now and then to see how I was taking something that might have been quite adult.

Your Bisset-VR match is way off. VR had multiple Best Actress niminations, she was way beyond any nepo charge by then. Bisset was…hot🔥

They all do it

R123, exactly the same, my parents had a lot of issues but they did let me read everything and saw most things on tv, it was the 80s, children were not yet overprotected. My first Agatha Christie was After The Funeral which involved an old woman being killed with an hatchet. So much for cozy. I was 9.

No one likes my alternative cast? No comments?

On the one hand, posters are complaining that Bacall wasn't believable as a respected Shakespearean actress but OTOH that she was too refined and elegant and well-dressed. And then OTOH that she was too vulgar and then OTOH that she wasn't vulgar enough. She was too thin, she wasn't thin enough.....

R128: she was too thin, refined, elegant, well dressed and not believable as a respected Shakespearean actress. None of these are a paradox. Still, she did well for the part, was only miscast as the role was written in the book.

Shakespearean actresses of the 1920s and 1930s were not thin, refined, elegant and well-dressed?

Katherine Cornell, Helen Hayes, Eva Le Gallienne and Lynne Fontanne would like a word with you, r129.

R130, that is exactly my point. Read again

Ok, sorry, my bad, r130. But i still stick to she didn’t look like a retired Shakespearean actress, though that is the minor point on her being miscast. But ok, to each her bacall own 😎

I'm not r130, but I like you, r132. I really do.

You're cool.

[quote]R124 Your Bisset-Vanessa Redgrave match is way off. VR had multiple Best Actress niminations, she was way beyond any nepo charge by then. Bisset was…hot

She’s a very beautiful lady whose mild talent didn’t stand in her way. Which is fine, as she seems like a kind, modest person. Not everyone can be super talented.

Don’t shoot me but I think of Lisa Vanderpump as a Bissett wannabe. Without the charm & with tons of shade though!

Oh yes. I’m sure fellow Brit Bisset was her idol. Lisa Vanderpump was a D level version at best, tho.

Dame Maggie Smith as Mrs Hubbard!

I never thought of the re-casting any role in this movie, and I can be pretty picky about casting.

Always loved that clue about the embroidered letter on the dropped ladies' handkerchief. Was it an H or....?

Christie had a penchant for using, for the basis of her plots, tragedies that happened to famous people of her time (Gene Tierney being exposed to a fan with German measles while pregnant, the kidnapping and killing of Charles and Anne Lindbergh's baby). It seems incredibly insensitive and tacky, to me. To do this for her personal gain. Has she ever been criticized, for this? I don't know much about her.

But other than those two instances, r140, were there others of the hundreds of stories she wrote for over 60 years?

[quote] She originally was cast as the Princess, [R14], but she preferred the role of Greta.

She has arguably the most quotable line from the movie: I was born backwards. That is why I work in Africa as missionary, teaching little brown babies more backwards than myself.

Priceless, especially with that OTP Swedish accent.

R141 Yes, I'm not a Christie expert but there were others - more centered in England. Maybe they were less sensitive subjects. But the Tierney and Lindbergh tragedies strike me as things she shouldn't have exploited just to write mystery thrillers.

[quote] Murder on the Orient Express is the best Christie film. It is well written, well acted, and elegant. Death on the Nile is more watchable. Evil Under the Sun is a comedy.

What the hell, did you fuckers forget about me? ME?! I should've won an Oscar playing Rock Hudson's wife! It was like a God damn revival of Cat On a Hot Tin Roof! Bastards!

Bacall was NOT miscast. She might have been cast for the role of Mrs. Hubbard, a genuine gabby matron of that period, but as Linda Arden! You can believe she'd mastermind of a revenge plot that took years to organize, harangue a dozen people into line, and and win a battle of wills* with Hercule Poirot.

Yes, Bavall's star quality and utter real life cuntitude made it work.

R140, it was not only Christie, using real life murders and stories was a famous trope of the Golden Age of Detective Fiction, Dorothy Sayers, Anthony Berkerley and others always did this. Christie did it rarely.

R146 The two I mentioned seem insesitive in that the famous people in question were victims, not murderers, and it involves, in one case, a child with birth defects and the mother having a mental breakdown, and in the other case, their little baby being senselessly murdered. That's my point, you can agree or not.

*insensitive

Let's discuss Anthony Perkins in this

R143 - have you seen See How They Run?

^ Forgot the link!

You can’t tell from the trailer, but your post is relevant to this film!

R150 No I haven't seen it.

R152 - You and r140 would probably appreciate it.

No more spoilers.

R150, R151 I just read the synopsis! Yeah, I see what you mean! Sounds cool.

R113, I love your parallel casting. Imaginative with the Princess Dragomiroff, though I find Wendy Hiller perfect.

I’d jettison Oliver Reed from the list, even though he’s a suitable blowhard, and replace him with the far more appealing Alan Bates, who’s much more on the same aesthetic and charm levels as Julie Christie.

Was Tony Perkins ever particularly distinguished, except in Psycho? He's always overacting.

[quote]Christie had a penchant for using, for the basis of her plots, tragedies that happened to famous people of her time (Gene Tierney being exposed to a fan with German measles while pregnant, the kidnapping and killing of Charles and Anne Lindbergh's baby). It seems incredibly insensitive and tacky, to me. To do this for her personal gain. Has she ever been criticized, for this? I don't know much about her.

You think *ripped from the headlines* is something new, r140? Also look up the term *roman à clef*.

R155 Bates is a good choice! I had a few names for Colonel Arbuthnot: Reed, Bates, Robert Shaw, Richard Johnson, and Christopher Lee

R158, if you need more homework, you need to replace Colin Blakely and Dennis Quilley, the former an important and emotional interrogation scene, the last, in which Poirot had “one last card to play.”

Note: both Blakely and Quilley ended up as suspects in the delightful but drastically different in tone Evil Under the Sun less than ten years later.

R157 If ten people do something vile, does that make it less vile if another person does it?

R160 - That's like the difference between an orgy and masturbation, dear.

R140 maybe you shouldn't be reading Christie if you are so offended that she very occasionally used real stories as a basis for her novels. You sound like a very easily upset person.

R157 And I don't need to look up the term *roman à clef*, thank you.

Let's say a beloved celeb today has their child kidnapped and brutally murdered. Then some writer writes a book - not a deep work, trying to illuminate the tragedy in some way, but just a mystery where she uses the incident because it makes a good basis for a plot. To me, it's cheap. Maybe I don't think of whodunits as high art, that may be another reason. It just seems like exploitation.

R162 I'm not upset. My God. I'm just thinking a little more deeply about the effects of using people's real-life tragedies to write murder mysteries and enrich oneself. Guess such things never occur to you.

You're really just too good for DL, r164. My stars, how your halo glows.

R165 Hey, it was my honest reaction to seeing this film and the other one (Mirror Crack'd)...I'm not good or particularly nice. Just an observation. Why do people on DL see everything in black and white, either-or terms? I loved the movie (Ortient Express, not the other one). I can love it and still make that observation. It was supposed to be food for thought. I do wonder about it. Sorry.

*Orient Express

I admire Chriatie, too. I just question that ONE THING. Apparently people don't see gray areas. It's like how people seem to see politics around here, too. Heroes and villains. No in between.

*Christie (sorry)

[quote]Guess such things never occur to you.

That's a tad Judgmental, r166.

[quote]Heroes and villains. No in between.

Good people on both sides, r167?

R164 needs that stick out of her ass and a cock up there instead. Relax you silly old sow.

R170 I'm not a Trumper. You really are a button-pusher, aren't you? It's okay to observe something negative without cancelling the person. Try being a little open minded. I don't care if you don't agree with me, different points of view are fine. Whatever. I haven't name-called anyone.

And now we’ve gone full Datalounge.

I was responding to your reply, r172. You're the one that brought politics into it.

[quote]Apparently people don't see gray areas. It's like how people seem to see politics around here, too. Heroes and villains. No in between.

R174 In a general way. You made it specific quoting Trump about good people on both sides. Aka putting words in my mouth.

I was saying people only see things in black and white, either-or terms, i. e. someone is either wonderful or terrible. It actually has zero to do with "good people on both sides."

I wonder if Poirot ever had a cheeky wank over Miss Lemon's a-cups?

If you don't see actual villains in our politics today, r175, then yes, you are saying "good people on both sides".

R177 When did I say I don't see actual villains in our politics? Anyone can see what I was saying. I'm talking about black or white thinking, about anything. I. e. you can't say anything bad about Agatha Christie because she's my hero and she couldn't possibly do anything wrong. That's it. Not replying any more and I hope people can hopefully get back to talking about the film.

[quote]I. e. you can't say anything bad about Agatha Christie because she's my hero and she couldn't possibly do anything wrong.

Who posted that on this thread, r178?

R176 - I think he just sticks to his daguerreotype of the Countess Vera Rosakoff.

Peter Ustinov played Poirot in 6 movies, only 3 of which were theatrically released.

Death On the Nile - 1978 - I won't bother listing the cast because you all know them

Evil Under the Sun - 1982- I won't bother listing the cast because you all know them

Thirteen at Dinner - 1985 - with Faye Dunaway, David Suchet appears at Inspector Japp, Bill Nighy

Dead Man's Folly - 1986 - with Jean Stapleton and Constance Cummings

Murder in Three Acts - 1986 - with Tony Curtis, Emma Samms, Diana Muldaur

Appointment With Death - 1986 with Lauren Bacall, Carrie Fisher, John Gielgud, Piper Laurie, Hayley Mills, David Soul

How many have you seen?

Two.

Rewatching Murder On the Orient Express right now….you bitches inspired me!

Such a wonderful old school intro….so excited, Sunday night feature!

Yea 2 for me too, plus I got halfway through Appointment With Death but director Michael Winner takes all the life out of it I didn't finish it.

If Branagh had to do a third Poirot I wish he'd done as faithful version of this, as the Suchet version deviated so much from the (pretty good) novel so much I barely consider it an adaptation!

[quote] Can someone explain the ending? Poirot really didn't solve it, did he?

No, he solves it alright.

SPOILER:

They all did it--everyone in the train car, including the conductor. They were all connected to by blood or by love to the kidnapped and murdered Daisy Armstrong, or her mother (who went into premature labor when she heard of Daisy's murder and died), or to her maid or her father (both of whom committed suicide after the kidnapping). Mrs. Hubbard (Lauren Bacall) is really a well-known actress who was daisy's aunt and her mother's sister, and she plotted the whole thing and the cover-up. They all drugged Ratchett/Cassetti for masterminding the kidnapping of Daisy and her murder, and then jointly stabbed him to death in a weird vengeful ceremony.

Poirot figures it all out, but he does not tell what he knows to the police because they have all suffered so much from Daisy's murder and the suicides.

AWKKK!!!

SPOILER TO FOLLOW

[quote] Mrs. Hubbard (Lauren Bacall) is really a well-known actress who was daisy's aunt and her mother's sister

Wrong.

Mrs. Hubbard was Daisy's grandmother!!!

Angela Lansbury as Mrs Hubbard

Murder On The HOMOSEXUAL Express (2023)

I didn't care for Albert Finney as Poirot nor did I like Kenneth Branagh in that role. The book, however, was exceptional.

HOw can people say Poirot didn't solve the case/ Did they see the same movie I did?

Finney is far and away my favorite Poirot. He’s perfect for Lumet’s tone, finding the light humor as well as the profound tragedy in the script.

I enjoyed Ustinov in Death on the Nile and Evil Under the Sun. He’s more comic than Finney, but also empathetic, especially in Nile. He had great chemistry with Mia Farrow.

The film is one of my all-time favorites. The scene with the arrival of the passengers and the train departing Istanbul is classic

Sideny Lumet as director (as well as Finney) is what makes this the superior Poirot film. He's a great director of actors. Even if you don't particularly like whodunits you can enjoy it for the actors giving great performances, and the intelligent direction. The other films are good whodunits, with good acting but not on the same level.

It had such style. One of the DVD extras is a discussion of why they didn't go with a typical suspense score and went with the lush RRB one.

R160/r163, as i said above using real life cases was often used at the time, she did it among many others. I actually see your point and it has some validity, to the point that i think Agatha Christie herself denied she was using the Gene Tierney case, so i guess she was not absolutely fine with it.

I disagree with you about being meretricious, especially re the Lindbergh baby, a kidnapping that was in the news. The Tierney case was more complicated (would love to know more details). But also, for instance, everybody at the time used the Dr Crippen story , there were victims as well. I think a writer’s moral limits are complicated but should not be constricted. I also disagree with your view that crime fiction is a lesser form of art.

Having said all this i love how this thread is so typical datalounge. Kudos to all.

Cheers. I love her on this but Vanessa Redgrave does little in this movie outside winking. Also, Anthony Perkins decided to come out at the end.

R195 I can't explain my personal reaction but I appreciate your agreement with some of it. I think since both cases involve children and their parents in one way or another, and in both cases the parents were (at least at one time) beloved figures, they are particularly poignant to some people.

As for detective fiction, what I meant was that in Christie's books these real-life events are used as plot points and nothing more. In other words, you need to base a murder mystery on something, and these events are treated as merely something to base a murder mystery on. Not the tragedies they are.

It's been a while since I've seen it but The Mirror Crack'd seems to come to a climax with the revelation of the murder motive and how it relates to Taylor's character meeting the fan. So Christie must have looked at the Tierney case and thought, "What a good idea for a motive". And then written the book based on that. Whether she ever considered what Gene Tierney must have suffered, while she (Christie) was writing the book, or if she just thought it was a good idea for a plot I guess we'll never know, but it seems a little callous and I don't blame her for denying it.

I should know this but I've forgotten.

How did this sad chapter in Gene Tierney's life become known to the public? When Gene's baby was born, I don't believe she or her doctors understood what had occurred to cause the birth defects in her child. Was it only the woman who came into contact with Gene (I think during a WWII USO show?) coming forward years later, telling her story....and did she tell it directly to Gene, as it happens in the Christie book?

How did it all spill out? As tragic as it all is, what a fantastic and horrific and unforgettable story. I can only assume it wasn't all that well-known to the general public when Christie wrote The Mirror Crack'd.

R197, tks for the comment, i like discussing these issues, they are not black and white. You refer to the movie, have you read the book? The Mirror Crack’d From Side To Side is one of the Christies that is actually sim pathetic to the killer. It conveys the tragedy that came upon Marina Gregg and explains what she does in what is clearly a moment of madness on her part. It is a very flawed book because it goes on to other murders that are out of character. There is actually some room for interpretation that these were carried out by her husband.

None oft this invalidates Tierney’s suffering, of course.

^ I also thought the Marina Gregg character would never have gone a murder spree like she did in the book, where she racked up an even higher body count than in the movie. It would have been a more powerful, albeit less sensational, story had the crime stayed focused on the initial murder.

R198 Yes the woman - who was a female Marine - ignored quarantine to see Tierney (maybe at the Hollywood Canteen) and a few years later met her again and told her about it. I don't know if it was public knowledge or if Christie just heard it through gossip.

R199 No, I didn't read the book. When I was a kid, mid-teens, I read a lot of Christie stuff one year, then I never did again.

Completely agree, r200, it is a shame because it detracts to the book, which major theme is tragic and would be so much better if only centered on the main murder. I think it involved word count….

R201, if you are interested do read the book, the Taylor movie has no nuance at all. Again, it is a flawed book for the second part. The Marple adaptation with Lindsay Duncan is much better.

Which Marple adaptation is with Lindsay Duncan, r203. I'm hoping it's the Joan Hickson version as those are by far the best adaptations.

McKenzie, r204.

Liz and Kim Novak’s scenes were loads of fun, though.

Kim Novak was originally going to play Liz's role in The Sandpiper and she would have been well cast as a free spirited artist.

The Joan Hickson "Mirror" has Claire Bloom as Marina, erstwhile "Petrocelli" star Barry Newman as her husband, and Daisy from "Keeping Up Appearances" as Typhoid Heather Badcock.

Petrocelli

[quote]”Petrocelli" star Barry Newman as her husband

That actor was very well cast, looks wise, he has that “clown face” that the character is described as having in the book.

I beg your pardon, r210!?

[quote]is actually sim pathetic

Oh, dear!

I really love the Finney movie. But even though fans don't seem to appreciate it, I thought the Suchet version for TV was quite good, too. I'm sure the producers were very well aware that the movie was hard to top. So they tried hard to find a new and unusual spin to the story - which I think worked well. The TV version played up a lot of Poirot's moral dilemma. It was a fair question to raise and legitimate to emphasize on it. Now, the TV version was probably a bit heavy handed in this regard. But if I compare the TV version with both movie versions, the 2017 version really fails imo, because it has nothing new to say.

Has anyone sat through this abomination? I lasted four minutes.

It features Meredith Baxter as Mrs. Hubbard!

[quote]It features Meredith Baxter as Mrs. Hubbard!

Mrs. Hubbard as Betty Broderick....

High drama

I bet Barry Newman was a good time in bed. He was sort of a Greg Mullavey with an edge.

[quote] He was sort of a Greg Mullavey with an edge.

Forget Barry, Louise. You couldn't even handle Greg!

I really enjoyed the Suchet one too R213. They made it it seems, assuming most people had seen the original. Poirot seems to know what’s up straight away. The way he looks at the passenger as they tell their story.

I also found it emotional too. It’s quite affecting as the passengers break down at the end when reliving the kidnapping and quart happened there, why they felt they wanted to commit this crime.

A couple of bits are silly - like the woman being stoned in Istanbul - this is Ataturk’s Turkey, not Saudi Arabia or something, but overall, I liked it. I didn’t realise Jessica Chastain wasn’t British even.

I just posted this on the Eddie Izzard thread...

Oh my god, she does! Haha!

It's the pretty eyes.

I saw Racel Roberts in a play once, she was hilarious.

(I also saw Rachel.)

Rachel, of course, is in one of my favourite movies of all time: Picnic at Hanging Rock.

Rachel was a great actress.

Rachel Roberts would get drunk an howl like a wolf

Lucy Worsley’s Agatha Christie documentary states that The MouseTrap was inspired by Dennis O’Neill, a WW2 one of three brothers evacuated from the city and and placed in a foster family, who abused, starved and eventually beat hint on death. Christie wondered what would happen if the dead boy’s brother took revenge as an adult.

R227 She'd get on all fours and bark like a dog.

She was one of Rex Harrison's wives.

R229 Yes. I read she howled like a wolf and barked like a dog

Anthony Perkins was beautiful in this

r231 - No dear boy, that was Jacqueline Bisset you're thinking of.

R232 she's a slut