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AA/ NA members compared to people who become abstinent through other, more rewarding means.

Steppers are now more defensive and reactionary now that there are people who are abstinent without program . I love the alcohol free hashtags on Instagram . If you compare the posts where people give up booze or drugs and reclaim their lives , to the arduous and joyless followers of the cult , it’s quite striking. steppers never give any real encouragement. Never anything positive about the benefits of being abstinent or reducing their intake . It’s all “ it’s going to be so hard and you never are cured ” it’s horrible . When you read posts of people with multiple years sober and they act like it’s still got them by the balls .

by Anonymousreply 86March 21, 2023 4:20 PM

The 3 steppers at my work were discussing their weekend plans yesterday. It all revolves around meetings, sponsors and step work . BORING!! These are people with years of sobriety. It’s an obsession and addiction.

by Anonymousreply 1January 21, 2023 6:02 PM

Rarely have we seen a person fail. Think about that. It was written 80 years for a very small populace of low bottom drunks. There's my statistical proof that this thing works? Oh yeah, it works if you work it. Whatever that means. But just keep coming back...for more misery.

by Anonymousreply 2January 21, 2023 6:04 PM

So I noticed something and was hoping for anyone’s input on this ….. from NA the narrative is that one is powerless over their addiction (drugs) yet I have heard many claim (almost all of them really) that they had a DOC (drug of choice) do you think this is an oxymoron or contradictory perspective since it gives the addict the impression that ( there is or was a choice in their drug usage?) what are your thoughts?

by Anonymousreply 3January 21, 2023 6:05 PM

“Alcoholism” is caused by drinking alcohol, not “character defects”, “moral shortcomings”, “instincts run wild”, “selfishness, self centeredness” or “self will run riot”. Even if one does have “underlying issues”, 12 step cult religion is the worst way to deal with them. I prefer to deal with my “issues” with trained professionals, not cheap religious crackpots. I will admit that a “spiritual perspective” can help, but aa doesn’t have any. aa is the opposite of spiritual . AA is less than worthless

by Anonymousreply 4January 21, 2023 6:07 PM

Bump

by Anonymousreply 5January 21, 2023 6:36 PM

How sad that you reply to yourself so often.

by Anonymousreply 6January 21, 2023 6:38 PM

Yeh why get sober and then have no life...lol...love my sober life without belonging to a cult.

by Anonymousreply 7January 21, 2023 6:41 PM

R6, I’m just sharing my experience, strength and hope you dullard

by Anonymousreply 8January 21, 2023 6:42 PM

[quote]...people who are abstinent without program...

Yeah, those people have been abstinent for about a week to ten days. I think people who feel as if alcohol use was destroying their lives are different from those who may feel modifying their alcohol intake might offer benefits. Why do you care?

It's puzzling that after thirty-five years sober in AA, the unflattering descriptions I read here about sober people almost never matches the thousands of people I've actually known in sobriety.

by Anonymousreply 9January 21, 2023 7:58 PM

The 13th step was the only step I was good at.

by Anonymousreply 10January 21, 2023 8:04 PM

It's not like "step work" and meetings take 48 hours. In cities, you see people meeting with sponsors or doing stepwork all the time. Look at it this way--its an hour or two that they're not drinking or doing drugs. Meetings are the same.

They are designed to take up time and provide social connection. It is very, very hard for most adults to make new friends. These meetings (and the phone calls in between) force people to get to know each other.

It's great when addicts find anything that helps them stay sober. Programs are in place for when they can't do it on their own. By definition, an addict is someone who can't stop using recreational substances on their own because it temporarily makes them feel better even though it is making them feel bad and ruining their relationships, friendships, and career.

It's also totally normal for people to do lots of meetings early on and find what works for them in the long term. Usually some other activity they enjoy will take over.

by Anonymousreply 11January 21, 2023 8:37 PM

R11, trauma is the root of addiction. And describing yourself as addict / alcoholic after giving upon your vice is not healthy . Doing that becomes your identity. It’s sad to see someone who has been abstinent for quite some time, navigate their existence through the lens of addict / alcoholic. They invoke their “ disease”in every aspect of their lives .

by Anonymousreply 12January 21, 2023 10:56 PM

I’m in North Ft Myers, FL right now, visiting my aunt and uncle, dodging the snow back home. Had one of the best weeks of my life, with people I love. Alcohol free. Amazing how you can stay alcohol free without checking your soul into the hands of sick people

by Anonymousreply 13January 21, 2023 11:01 PM

Except no one is doing that r12.

by Anonymousreply 14January 22, 2023 1:11 AM

R14, you’re a liar !!

by Anonymousreply 15January 22, 2023 1:35 AM

Bump

by Anonymousreply 16January 22, 2023 5:37 PM

the 12 step life is a time suck...no time for anything else.

by Anonymousreply 17January 23, 2023 1:15 AM

r12 is a great example why conversation about addiction is important. Imagine so flippantly just writing "trauma is the root of addiction". In movies, it tends to be.

Maybe R12 is right because all humans experience trauma.

12 step programs do say that while some people can point to factors that make some more likely to experience addiction (trauma, abuse, genetic predisposition), it really isn't important because the path out of addiction is the same for all addicts. And it comes down to recognizing their status as an addict who can't control their relationship with a substance, building a social community around them, and giving them tools to stay on top of their emotional, spiritual, and physical well being as they move forward. The social community part is important because it can help prevent relapse. Some addicts are willing to call other people they trust and say "i'm thinking of using again". And the discussion doesn't have to be about that. A discussion about literally anything else puts the addict's focus on something else and stops the repetitive thoughts.

by Anonymousreply 18January 23, 2023 1:30 AM

My ex-boyfriend was an alcoholic. When I discussed alcoholism and what it does to others with my therapist, she told me, "Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic."

Roughly five months after that discussion, he was murdered by his brother. I am still dealing with the fallout from what happened in June. He was in AA after getting a DUI some years ago and had a breathalyzer in his car. He had several AA chips, which I saw on his desk. He was proud of that.

His friend (whom I met after his death) told me that he had obviously picked up drinking again and had gotten a new car. He picked it right back up after the breathalyzer was apparently no longer there. He was gone not long after that.

Drugs and alcohol are just the worst. I'm no saint; I've touched opiates and pot, but I'm not good at drinking. Neither is my mother; I guess I inherited that. And I have a non-addictive personality. I can drop off substances whenever I want.

I am honestly okay with abstaining from alcohol for the most part. I have actually dated two other guys besides him who had a drinking problem. I cannot stand it any longer. Two in a row began their alcoholism because they blamed themselves for a death in their immediate family, in this case, both their mothers. It is vile, and I only hope people who got into this rut will find their way out. We, as a civilization, deserve better.

by Anonymousreply 19January 23, 2023 1:52 AM

Another thing I noticed is steppers never give themselves credit for their sobriety etc . It’s all AA, God and other members . It’s only your fault if you get loaded or you blame “ the disease “

by Anonymousreply 20February 11, 2023 5:32 PM

Why does DL always have to bash AA/NA members.

by Anonymousreply 21February 11, 2023 5:36 PM

R12 I do agree with you about trauma being the root of all addiction. And there is a difference between addicts and situational addicts. I am a situational addict with comorbid depression. I'm also high functioning addict.

by Anonymousreply 22February 11, 2023 5:38 PM

R22, try not to define yourself as addict . It’s not your identity and it’s self defeating

by Anonymousreply 23February 11, 2023 5:52 PM

R20 I’m 8 years sober and give myself enormous credit for getting sober, it wasn’t easy….but I’m also incredibly grateful for all the people who were there for me along the way, many of whom are members of AA. At the beginning AA was a huge help, support, frankly something to do with all this newfound time, and the comradely of being in a group of people are working towards the same goal. Once I was grounded in sobriety I slowly stopped going to meetings and only go a few times a year at most these days. AA was a tool I used in getting sober and it worked for me

by Anonymousreply 24February 11, 2023 5:57 PM

If you a certain mindset, making alcohol “forbidden” is not going to help.

Much better to think in terms of “I feel so much better when I don’t drink, I sleep well when I don’t drink, I think better and get more done,” etc

In terms of quantity, I don’t drink a lot but it bothers me to rely on it for fun or relaxation. Plus I don’t want to go farther down that path.

by Anonymousreply 25February 11, 2023 6:01 PM

R24, congrats to you , but your AA “ Friends” now consider you a dry drunk or out drinking again . It’s absolute black / white thinking . It’s one size fits all

by Anonymousreply 26February 11, 2023 6:04 PM

R25, I agree absolutely

by Anonymousreply 27February 11, 2023 6:05 PM

R24 You may be right but I don’t really care. I have a large circle of sober friends both in and out of AA and I’ve never felt judged by either group. Just grateful to be sober!

by Anonymousreply 28February 11, 2023 6:09 PM

R28, you only hang with sober people?

by Anonymousreply 29February 11, 2023 6:18 PM

R28 Ha! No not at all, that was in reference to the thread topic. Pretty mixed bag these days, but zero sober or non-drinking friends back when I was drinking as they made me pretty uncomfortable.

by Anonymousreply 30February 11, 2023 6:26 PM

R12 wrote "Try not to define yourself as addict . It’s not your identity and it’s self defeating"

The recognition of addiction is often primary in emerging from substance abuse. It might mean one thing to R12 but I've never heard a mental health professional say "you shouldn't consider yourself an addict because its not your identity." R12 is engaging in rationalizing wordplay. The exact kind of wordplay that leads most addicts straight back into substance use.

It doesn't mean being an addict is all you are. It means that your relationship to a substance or behavior is no longer rational. I am a nicotine addict. Havent smoked in 20 years. Not even one. But I think about it sometimes. That's my addict brain trying out routines to get me back to the substance I have no control over.

An addict's brain will create narratives and thought loops all designed to get them back to a substance that ruins their relationships, finances, and health. "Oh, just once because....." I watch friends who can drink and have a few cigarettes a year and my addict brain wants me to see if I can be that person too. But I know that I'm not. They have control over it, I don't. I have to remind myself of that at least once per week. And every time I watch someone smoking in movies.

by Anonymousreply 31February 11, 2023 6:46 PM

I have nothing against AA or those that attend.

But it wasn't for me at all. First, I wasn't into having homework that felt more like two bit self-help psychology. The steps are actually fine but they aren't the holy grail that AA touts them to be. And I flat out reject having a "sponsor"? Really? Some stranger telling me how to live? No way. I realize some sponsors work out great, but the one I had was a controlling nightmare of a man. Again, the idea is fine. But the added importance given to a sponsor can leads itself it an unhealthy and unnecessary power balance more often than not.

Second, I wasn't into having to hang out with others who I had only one thing in common with (being a drunk).

Finally, I didn't like or agree with feeling I was somehow damaged beyond my inability to control my drinking.

I quit when I was ready and then I quit for good. It was really that simple for me. I realize that's anecdotal.

Again, if AA works for you? Do it.

by Anonymousreply 32February 11, 2023 6:47 PM

R24 here…..and I entirely agree with R32 in regards to sponsorship….I started getting sober in nyc and ended up moving back to coastal Maine. Think I could have found a good sponsor in Ny but zero good fits in my current rural area. I can imagine getting stuck with a bad/poor-fit of a sponsor and having to navigate your way out of that relationship in early sobriety could easily become one more reason to drink. Gives me anxiety just thinking about it!

by Anonymousreply 33February 11, 2023 6:55 PM

12-step programs are a lot of social structures built around one kernel of behavioral truth: it’s easier to stop (“extinguish”) a behavior if you totally abstain.

Behaviors you indulge in pleasurably once in a while (“intermittent reinforcement”) are the most difficult to extinguish.

Then there’s physical addiction, which is another category. Physically addicted people shouldn’t rely on 12- step programs. They should be in medically supervised rehab.

by Anonymousreply 34February 11, 2023 7:23 PM

r34 Its nice to pull apart all those things and yes, physical addiction requires medical supervision. But there's a lot more than that one kernel. The social support for an addict of just having something to take up 2 hours of their day (an hour for meeting, and hour to get there, get home, some time to socialize before and after meeting) keeps addicts engaged with other people. That is the central kernel of12 step programs. It's a time sucking activity that adds more activities like outreach calls so very quickly, people create an immediate social circle of sober people.

When the guy who started AA was in the midst of a hallucinogenic trip, he emerged with the overall concept and that he couldn't do it alone. He needed to share it with people in order for himself to stay sober. It required other people to do it with him. (He was also a huge advocate for hallucinogens to help people get sober).

Addicts get stuck in brain loops--flow charts inside the brain that leads them to "maybe you should take the substance." That's why outreach calls and meetings are important--they connect addicts with other people and as long as they're socially engaged, they're focused on that other person and not isolated with their own thoughts

by Anonymousreply 35February 11, 2023 8:01 PM

Also, I love how OP writes that 12 Step people "Never anything positive about the benefits of being abstinent or reducing their intake."

Pretty sure thats what most meetings center on. People talking about what life was like before they got sober and what life is like now.

There are people who end up getting exposed to weird and unsupportive meetings. In NYC and LA, there are AA meetings that run constantly throughout the day and night. but now there are meetings online. If you don't like one, you can try another. They run 24/7 all over the world. For anyone who needs help, find ones that keep you entertained and that you enjoy.

by Anonymousreply 36February 11, 2023 8:12 PM

R35 I totally agree with you. Having a network is great for addicts and non-addicts alike. I think that's a fantastic, useful goal for anyone striving for sobriety - I know it helped me. My friends and family, aka my network, were a godsend as I tried to get sober. AA is wonderful in that respect. A wonderful tool. And I am grateful it exists and helps so many.

I think for me it's how AA has become The Law of All Things Sober by those in and out of the rooms that I take issue with. It's been culturally codified as the Only Way (just look at the court system) and that makes it suspect to me. Or at least makes it primed for more and more and more scrutiny. "Rarely have we seen a person a fail who have thoroughly followed our path" is a big, bold statement. The fact it feels like arrogant, unproven rubbish makes me question the entire construct, unfortunately. And I don't think AA is rubbish. But it's untrustworthy to me. It promises too much that it can never deliver. (Which, oddly, is a very addict thing to do!)

This made more elevated for me because I did, in fact, fail following the AA path. What worked for me was the total opposite of what AA said to do. And it's worked now for years and years. Anecdotal, yes. But accurate.

by Anonymousreply 37February 11, 2023 8:31 PM

R36, is regurgitating stepper talk verbatim actually.

by Anonymousreply 38February 11, 2023 9:49 PM

“Second, I wasn't into having to hang out with others who I had only one thing in common with (being a drunk).” Ding ding 🛎️!!!

by Anonymousreply 39February 11, 2023 9:49 PM

Who wants to hang out with a bunch of drunks?

by Anonymousreply 40February 11, 2023 9:56 PM

A lot of drinkers can be a good time Charlie . But steppers seem morose and self obsessed or worse fake toxic positive

by Anonymousreply 41February 11, 2023 9:58 PM

And the AA troll is back. 80% of the posts are from the same person. Steppers? You really gotta get a new gig.

Keep coming back and work it!

by Anonymousreply 42February 11, 2023 10:17 PM

I went to AA every day for 6 months as a tool, along with counseling, but never got a sponsor or formally did the steps. It was very helpful and still there if I needed it but haven’t gone back and have been sober for 15 years. I am in favor of whatever works.

by Anonymousreply 43February 11, 2023 10:26 PM

R43, you didn’t work the program and you are deceiving yourself if you think your healed - typical AA response. You suffer from terminal uniqueness and are selfish for the staying and helping the newcomer.

by Anonymousreply 44February 11, 2023 10:33 PM

☝🏼 you’re and for not staying

by Anonymousreply 45February 11, 2023 10:34 PM

r43 I'm with you. I've used AA on and off over the past 15 years and have had a few periods of up to 18 months of sobriety during that time. I've only been to rehab once (back in 2009 for a month) and the other times I quit (including this time) I just stopped on my own with no medical intervention nor DTs. It's not because I wasn't drinking enough - I was putting away 2 bottles of wine a night. I'm 1/2 Polish and I think I come from stock that have heavy drinking in their genes.

Anyways, I'm 95 days sober, and in the first 2 months went to A LOT of Zoom AA meetings. I found them helpful, and have found the meetings helpful in the past as well. I've had sponsors before, but only 2 that I really liked and thought made a difference for me. Sadly, in both cases, a move away (once on my part, once on the sponsor's part) ended the sponsorship. I've made it through Step 4 in the past. This time, I haven't gotten a sponsor nor have I done the steps (except the first 2, which happened because I really knew I was powerless and i did come to believe that other people could help me - and that they are a a power greater than myself).

Because of some recent circumstances, I haven't been attending meetings more than once a week. When i do go to meetings, i like them and hear things that are relevant to remembering why i will never be able to drink normally. I also made myself extremely ill by drinking as much as I did over the past 3+ years, and do feel if I had kept drinking, I would have probably ended up dead. I'm not being dramatic about that, I'm dealing with lasting health issues because of my drinking.

I woke up after my last drunk and got on an AA meeting. The encouragement and positivity I received was extremely helpful. It continues to be helpful and there when i need it. The majority of people i meet and talk to in and out of the meetings are funny, insightful people. like any group, there are the outliers, the critical, the crazy, the ones i sort of just dismiss. you will find those sorts in any gathering.

i think AA can be helpful. some people need it for life, others don't. it's not my place to judge. i'm just sharing what i've found over the years. getting and staying sober is my work and responsibility, and AA was one of the tools that i used. but much like religion, i don't just "give it over to God" and trust that it will all turn out okay...i have to put in the work and desire to not be where and what i was 95 days ago and to keep moving forward.

by Anonymousreply 46February 11, 2023 11:07 PM

My brother, God bless him, kicked booze, pills, and cigarettes on his own, all at once, and cold turkey. He was sober for 8 years until cancer claimed him. After the funeral a friend who had tried for years to get my brother to become a stepper said that maybe he would have had a few more years if he’d acknowledged the higher power earlier. I told him that I was acknowledging a higher power by not decking him. At least that’s what I remember - I was drunk.

by Anonymousreply 47February 11, 2023 11:18 PM

Congratulations on 95 days R46!!!! 90 days was a beast for me to get past think I hit 89 three times before sobriety finally stuck. I entirely agree with all you say regarding AA. It’s an excellent tool and support….and wonderful people for the most part. Wishing you all the best in your sobriety!

by Anonymousreply 48February 12, 2023 12:09 AM

The perennial topics of DL: AA, tattoos, borderline personality disorder, and Vivian Vance.

by Anonymousreply 49February 12, 2023 12:13 AM

You guys know Narc-Anon is a bullshit $cientology Cult front group, right?

by Anonymousreply 50February 12, 2023 12:17 AM

“2, which happened because I really knew I was powerless and i did come to believe that other people could help me - and that they are a a power greater than myself).”

You have very little self esteem.

by Anonymousreply 51February 12, 2023 11:58 AM

AA troll

by Anonymousreply 52February 12, 2023 12:02 PM

Brainwashed tool ☝🏼

by Anonymousreply 53February 12, 2023 12:04 PM

I was a very heavy drinker and I stopped -- cold turkey -- a few years ago (I would start my drinking in the morning).

The key realization that I had was that I was unable to moderate my drinking and therefore had to refuse all alcohol. Previously, the idea of giving up booze forever filled me with horror -- a similar horror I experienced at dinner with my inlaws, when I realized that there was only one bottle of wine for the entire table.

I was very hard for three weeks, with cravings that lasted up to six months. Now it is fine. Of course, I lost my alcoholic friends, and gained a clearer understanding of why I used alcohol to disengage from various pressures in my life.

I myself don't understand the AA rhetoric of "powerlessness" since giving up alcohol was an extraordinary act of will on my part.

by Anonymousreply 54February 12, 2023 12:17 PM

R54, bless you and I think you’re very powerful

by Anonymousreply 55February 12, 2023 12:26 PM

Bumpy

by Anonymousreply 56February 14, 2023 12:07 AM

R38 I attended some 12 step meetings for a while. Not having to do with alcohol or drugs. So it gave me a sense of how 12 step programs operate.

Having known many addicts, some sober, some not, I can appreciate the structure 12 step programs give to people who need recovery. It's something to keep them occupied in the first days, weeks, and months of dealing with addictions.

For anyone struggling with addiction, I'd suggest 12 steps programs are a great place to start. Also great to have a psychiatrist and a therapist. Lots of addicts have some combination of chemical imbalances, depression and severe anxiety.

by Anonymousreply 57February 14, 2023 1:33 AM

R43 You should be ashamed of yourself for what you are doing and trying to exude on this thread. Ashamed. You don't even acknowledge the man has been sober for 15 years because you are evil and want to make a point. Someone like you really should die in a grease fire.

by Anonymousreply 58February 14, 2023 1:37 AM

I'm sorry, I meant r44.

by Anonymousreply 59February 14, 2023 1:37 AM

☝🏼r57 your post contradicts itself.

“ Also great to have a psychiatrist and a therapist. Lots of addicts have some combination of chemical imbalances, depression and severe anxiety.”

How are the 12 steps helpful to psychic and emotional trauma ? AA and NA teaches powerlessness and lack of personal autonomy.

by Anonymousreply 60February 14, 2023 1:39 AM

Change is extremely difficult. For that reason, you won't get sober until you decide to get sober, regardless of the program (or lack of program) you choose. No program will work if you are going there for someone else (family, loved ones, court order, etc.) and not for yourself.

I was not in AA, but I was in other 12 step groups. I went to 12 step meetings and Smart Recovery meetings. Smart Recovery offers a lot of cognitive behavioral therapy tools. Some of the 12 step members looked down on Smart Recovery precisely because it is not a 12 step program. I don't care. I say find whatever works. I cast my net wide and picked what worked for me.

Religions are bullshit, especially any extreme religions. I am not religious at all, but I am spiritual. I find beauty in art, nature, and music. Fortunately, I had several people tell me not to worry about the religious aspect of the 12 steps. Thinking of the nature and the "Group of Dudes (and Dudettes)" at the meetings worked for me.

Probably the most helpful recovery book that I've read is [italic]Recovery -- The Sacred Art: The Twelve Steps as Spiritual Practice[/italic] by Rami Shapiro. He talks about how the 12 steps relate to lessons/stories from major religions. Again, I am not religious, but I found it helpful.

I don't know what meetings people on DL are going to, but I was surprised by the humor, laughter, and love at meetings that I attended. People who bitch about meetings should know that you aren't bound to a meeting or a sponsor just because you attended a meeting and got paired with a sponsor, especially now that there are so many zoom and telephone meetings. If you don't like zoom meetings, dial in (with a pencil) by phone.

If you don't like your sponsor, find another one. If you aren't connecting with people at a meeting, find another meeting. Don't give up after one or two meetings. Every meeting is different. You will find a group that works for you if you try.

I found this video helpful.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 61February 14, 2023 2:29 AM

Don’t like AA, r4? Then don’t go.

Other people get a lot out of it—structure, understanding, socializing, help staying sober.

Whaddyou care what other people find helpful? If AA doesn’t work for you, you have our permission not to participate.

by Anonymousreply 62February 14, 2023 4:43 AM

Bump for leaving the 12 step delusion

by Anonymousreply 63February 14, 2023 1:36 PM

Bump

by Anonymousreply 64February 15, 2023 12:17 AM

This is such a sad thread. If being in AA/NA isn’t conducive to your sobriety, so be it. Not everyone is like you.

I can imagine fighting an addiction can be lonely and frightening; to think that others facing the same battles would see fit to belittle you for how you go about getting healthy is disgusting.

by Anonymousreply 65February 15, 2023 12:23 AM

Bump

by Anonymousreply 66February 17, 2023 12:10 AM

Bump for more positive, more rewarding alternatives

by Anonymousreply 67March 19, 2023 3:02 AM

Oh, for fuck's sake, it's the Anti-AA Troll [bold]YET AGAIN.[/bold]

OP/A-AA Troll, [bold]no one cares.[/bold]

by Anonymousreply 68March 19, 2023 3:48 AM

If you have no dog in the fight , why comment ?🤔 r68

by Anonymousreply 69March 19, 2023 3:51 AM

According to Ignore-dar, OP (the A-AA TRoll) has not only responded to his own thread multiple times but keeps bumping it up again and again.

by Anonymousreply 70March 19, 2023 4:07 AM

Christ. The anti-AA bunch is as cracked as the trans haters.

by Anonymousreply 71March 19, 2023 4:12 AM

Apparently the OP couldn't cut it in AA/NA. That's fine.

I know some people who've gotten sober and changed their lives because of the 12 Step programs so I don't knock them. It actually saved their lives as far as I could see.

If it wasn't the right program for the OP then he should find a different program and move on. Continuing to harp on about AA/NA just makes him look like a sore and resentful loser. Let it go, OP.

by Anonymousreply 72March 19, 2023 4:13 AM

Oh, my. So many issues:

AA/ NA members compared to people who become abstinent through other, more rewarding means. Steppers are now more defensive and reactionary now that there are people who are abstinent without program . I love the alcohol free hashtags on Instagram . If you compare the posts where people give up booze or drugs and reclaim their lives , to the arduous and joyless followers of the cult , it’s quite striking. steppers never give any real encouragement. Never anything positive about the benefits of being abstinent or reducing their intake . It’s all “ it’s going to be so hard and you never are cured ” it’s horrible . When you read posts of people with multiple years sober and they act like it’s still got them by the balls .

The 3 steppers at my work were discussing their weekend plans yesterday. It all revolves around meetings, sponsors and step work . BORING!! These are people with years of sobriety. It’s an obsession and addiction.

Rarely have we seen a person fail. Think about that. It was written 80 years for a very small populace of low bottom drunks. There's my statistical proof that this thing works? Oh yeah, it works if you work it. Whatever that means. But just keep coming back...for more misery.

So I noticed something and was hoping for anyone’s input on this ….. from NA the narrative is that one is powerless over their addiction (drugs) yet I have heard many claim (almost all of them really) that they had a DOC (drug of choice) do you think this is an oxymoron or contradictory perspective since it gives the addict the impression that ( there is or was a choice in their drug usage?) what are your thoughts?

“Alcoholism” is caused by drinking alcohol, not “character defects”, “moral shortcomings”, “instincts run wild”, “selfishness, self centeredness” or “self will run riot”. Even if one does have “underlying issues”, 12 step cult religion is the worst way to deal with them. I prefer to deal with my “issues” with trained professionals, not cheap religious crackpots. I will admit that a “spiritual perspective” can help, but aa doesn’t have any. aa is the opposite of spiritual . AA is less than worthless

Bump

Yeh why get sober and then have no life...lol...love my sober life without belonging to a cult.

R6, I’m just sharing my experience, strength and hope you dullard

R11, trauma is the root of addiction. And describing yourself as addict / alcoholic after giving upon your vice is not healthy . Doing that becomes your identity. It’s sad to see someone who has been abstinent for quite some time, navigate their existence through the lens of addict / alcoholic. They invoke their “ disease”in every aspect of their lives .

by Anonymousreply 73March 19, 2023 4:25 AM

So many issues, as noted, with this OP:

I’m in North Ft Myers, FL right now, visiting my aunt and uncle, dodging the snow back home. Had one of the best weeks of my life, with people I love. Alcohol free. Amazing how you can stay alcohol free without checking your soul into the hands of sick people

R14, you’re a liar !!

the 12 step life is a time suck...no time for anything else.

Another thing I noticed is steppers never give themselves credit for their sobriety etc . It’s all AA, God and other members . It’s only your fault if you get loaded or you blame “ the disease “

R22, try not to define yourself as addict . It’s not your identity and it’s self defeating

R24, congrats to you , but your AA “ Friends” now consider you a dry drunk or out drinking again . It’s absolute black / white thinking . It’s one size fits all

R28, you only hang with sober people?

R36, is regurgitating stepper talk verbatim actually.

“Second, I wasn't into having to hang out with others who I had only one thing in common with (being a drunk).” Ding ding 🛎️!!!

A lot of drinkers can be a good time Charlie . But steppers seem morose and self obsessed or worse fake toxic positive

R43, you didn’t work the program and you are deceiving yourself if you think your healed - typical AA response. You suffer from terminal uniqueness and are selfish for the staying and helping the newcomer.

☝🏼 you’re and for not staying

compared to people who become abstinent through other, more rewarding means. “2, which happened because I really knew I was powerless and i did come to believe that other people could help me - and that they are a a power greater than myself).”

You have very little self esteem.

Brainwashed tool ☝🏼

“ Also great to have a psychiatrist and a therapist. Lots of addicts have some combination of chemical imbalances, depression and severe anxiety.”

How are the 12 steps helpful to psychic and emotional trauma ? AA and NA teaches powerlessness and lack of personal autonomy.

by Anonymousreply 74March 19, 2023 4:27 AM

R74, is a stalker with no counter argument

by Anonymousreply 75March 19, 2023 4:34 AM

I don't give a fuck how people get sober. If drugs and/or alcohol are a problem in someone's life, get whatever help works out best for him/her as an individual.

12 Steps not for you? Cool. Do some other program and if it works for you that's great.

12 Steps working for you? Cool. Do that program and if it works for you that's great.

Not sure what works for you yet? Cool. Try a few 12 Step meetings and see what you think. Also try some of the other programs out there and see what you think. Go with whatever makes the most sense to you.

It's not rocket science and it doesn't take some wacko anti-AA crusader to turn you away from the "evils" of AA/NA. Anyone can check these groups out and anyone can make the choice that is most comfortable for their own lives.

by Anonymousreply 76March 19, 2023 5:09 AM

[quote] So I noticed something and was hoping for anyone’s input on this ….. from NA the narrative is that one is powerless over their addiction (drugs) yet I have heard many claim (almost all of them really) that they had a DOC (drug of choice) do you think this is an oxymoron or contradictory perspective since it gives the addict the impression that ( there is or was a choice in their drug usage?) what are your thoughts?

I work with addicts who have legal troubles. So, I'm not an expert on the medical side of things. However ...

IMO, the "drug of choice" question is important because it helps those who provide treatment to understand what they're working with. Also, it's important to know, for certain drugs (meth, etc.), whether someone injects (vs. smoke or ingest orally). If there's injection involved, then that's very serious.

Does having a "drug of choice" indicate that someone is not "powerless" to choose not to use? I'd say no, but I'd also say "powerless" is not a helpful descriptor, either.

People have different personalities and reasons for using drugs. Different drugs also affect people in different ways. Hence, drug of choice.

I was working with someone who only started using meth because his "drug of choice" (oxys) was hard to find.

I've recently worked with someone whose drug of choice was meth. She was clean for maybe a year, then started drinking ... which led her back to her drug of choice.

My point is that addicts might have a "drug of choice," but if it's not available, they'll use something else.

To me, that indicates that it's not so easy for an addict to "choose" not to use at all.

by Anonymousreply 77March 19, 2023 5:32 AM

The powerless concept teaches helplessness. And AA describes alcohol as “ cunning , baffling and powerful.” How do people manage going outside a meeting where alcohol is so ubiquitous? This is why the success rate is so low and the people in the program remain self obsessed, neurotic messes .

by Anonymousreply 78March 19, 2023 4:27 PM

In AA/ NA - everything is your fault except staying sober , then it’s God, sponsor and fellow members of program

by Anonymousreply 79March 19, 2023 6:35 PM

If this isn’t gaslighting, I don’t know what is

by Anonymousreply 80March 19, 2023 6:57 PM

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by Anonymousreply 81March 19, 2023 6:58 PM

[quote] In AA/ NA - everything is your fault except staying sober

The accountability part of the steps is a good thing, IMO. I work with addicts and some of the shit they say (blaming everybody but themselves for their situations) is ridiculous ... and said with a straight face.

by Anonymousreply 82March 19, 2023 7:07 PM

r60 There's no contradiction.

If someone is an addict and it's ruining their life, I can highly recommend 12 step programs AND a therapist AND a psychiatrist.

At the absolute very least, 12 step programs are very good at helping people with their first few weeks of abstinence. And creating some structure and support for that. Substance abuse really fucks with the brain.

Once someone has gotten some sobriety, a psychiatrist is a great next step. Many addicts have chemical imbalances and anxiety. Anti-depressants are great for that. Even if they numb a person out, it can help mute the out of control anxiety response that pushes people back to substance use. Even if they decide to go off them in the future, it can be a helpful tool.

A therapist is there to help you focus on you. It would be great if recently sober addicts (who aren't in programs) could have therapy several times per week. It tends not to be affordable for most. That's the greatest benefit of widely available meetings--They're free and there when you need or want them.

These are all tools. Every addict will try lots of them and figure out a balance if they want to get sober.

by Anonymousreply 83March 21, 2023 2:48 AM

Whatever makes someone happy even if that means being miserable, I don't care. I just don't have time to listen to it all so I don't. But have at it if it helps.

by Anonymousreply 84March 21, 2023 4:07 AM

Can you imagine someone who has distanced themselves with multiple years of abstinence , that continues to attend several meetings a week, sponsors people etc, imagine having to hear the same fucking stories over and over , dreadful and not progress

by Anonymousreply 85March 21, 2023 4:10 AM

Bump

by Anonymousreply 86March 21, 2023 4:20 PM
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