After 220 Years, the Fate of the Parthenon Marbles Rests in Secret Talks

Copy of the NYT article that's not behind a paywall:

What possible negotiations would there be? The Brits stole it, as they did probably hundreds of thousands of pieces of art and architecture over hundreds of years of violent and murderous colonialism

It’s pretty fucking simple. GIVE IT BACK.

The sticking points -- according to the Brits, who are obviously biased -- is that the Ottomans technically had control of the Parthenon at the time and allowed them to take the marbles, but also that Britain has conveniently passed a law saying it's illegal to remove anything from the collection of the British Museum unless it's basically too derelict or damaged to be shown publicly.

That's why they're trying to lend the marbles out for decades at a time, reportedly, it's to get past the issue of the law.

Send it back to Greece and watch it be immediately tarnished.

R2, learn some history from R3.

R4 The marbles are made of marble, not metal.

"Tarnish is a thin layer of corrosion that forms over copper, brass, aluminum, magnesium, neodymium and other similar metals as their outermost layer undergoes a chemical reaction."

It sounds like they're nowhere near a deal. Greece wants a longterm loan that will always be extended and not to acknowledge British ownership. BM wants short term loan and constant exchange of artifacts to build trust and can't meet what Greece wants anyway because of its charter.

R4, the Greeks built a beautiful, state of the art museum at the base of the Acropolis several years ago. I am very sure that the Marbles will be very safe there. I believe in the past the British sited a lack of appropriate site for them, but back then, the museum was little more than a taverna near the Parthenon.

Given the historical magnitude of the Acropolis and Athens itself, I say return them, though this would probably cause a floodgate of demands for the return of artifacts, which, in many cases, wouldn't be wise.

Greece needs to acknowledge that the BM is the legitimate owner of the Elgin Marbles. There must not be any deal or movement of the marbles without that.

The English have permanently damaged the marbles. They destroy whatever they touch.

r10 Oh good if they're damaged you won't need them back then. Thanks Stavros.

Why would the British Museum start to behave ethically now?

You could have left the word "Museum" out and that's still a valid question, R12.

Wait till Holland demands its Rembrandts and van Goghs back. And Pittsburgh all the Warhols. I can see a lot of hair pulling coming.

Yes, we all remember when the Ottomans conquered Pittsburgh and sold all the Warhols to the British, r16.

R14 is an idiot who thinks buying and selling artwork is the same as pillaging ancient ruins in another country.

The Greeks really must kidnap Camilla and hold her ransom for the return of those damn Marbles! Enough is enough

"We'll send you the marbles if you to keep Camilla!"

Those are property of the King! We stole them fair and square.

PS Meagan Markle must die!

The Acropolis Museum is magnificent. That is where they belong.

I believe the Museum has a room waiting for the marbles. Currently the walls of that room are bare, constantly challenging the British Museum to relinquish them

If they go to Greece in an "extended trip," they're not going back

Well we DID have receipts for their purchase, R16, you scabby bum sucker.

The Greeks did far more damage to the Parthenon itself than the Brits did to the marbles, though both neglect and an appalling restoration in the 70s. This sort of argument gets nowhere.

Since the push is to move the clock back and undo settled things from the past, the UK should demand that Greece first restore its monarchy.

It would also be nice if the UK received Calais back from France.

Well, R24, the Ottomans using it as an ammunition magazine and the Venetians deciding to cannonball it didn't help. Greece was occupied for 400 years by the Ottomans, being Christians, the Greeks were treated basically like slaves, The Ottomans didn't take care of it either.

Well, obviously not, R25, but they are not currently party to any negotiations.

Britain should give them back, They are spoils of empire. They don't belong to Britain

I want my virginity back.

No, they aren't r9. The damn British need to give them back.

What about your marbles, Madge at R29? Don't need those anymore?

Good news!

The British stole them fair and square.

The have been well taken care of by the English for 220 years. God knows if they'd even still exist or what condition they would have been in if they had remained in Greece. There were many wars in Greece in those years. Anything could have happened.

Glad the Luftwaffle missed them.

The German Wehrmacht would have stolen what was left of them when they occupied Athens. R35, they couldn't get them. They were evacuated to a bomb proof tunnel for the duration of the war.

If I was forced to dispose of them, I would give them to Turkey, to give a huge Fuck You to Greece.

R37 So very British.

The British taking them also protected them from the notorious Athens air pollution and terrible acid rain that have done quite a lot of damage to the Parthenon and statues on the Acropolis.

I know these are popular and people flock to visit the artifacts, but I was somewhat underwhelmed by them. Maybe it's how they're displayed? But I just don't get the sense of awe that I do from so many of the other treasures in the British Museum.

All I remember about the British Museum is the Bog Man -- possibly gay -- and getting hammered a great pub across the street.

It's far too long overdue - this has been going on for decades. The Brits know they should give it back. Fuck the rules about moving items from the museum.

I've seen them in the British Museum multiple times - they look fine and well preserved, but it always struck me - wtf are these doing HERE? Has nothing to do with British culture or history - at all.

There is no chance Greece gets them back without changing their stance and cutting a deal with the British Museum and agreeing joint ownership. Greece screaming "THEY'RE OURS is just a complete ignorance of the reality of the situation. Possession being 9/10ss of the law is a fact even without the power difference between the two countries (and drunk Brits funding half the Greek economy). If they just agree to joint ownership the BM would gladly swap control of them every decade to make the problem go away. Beyond that what leverage do the Greeksactually have here?

R42 - the British Museum would be empty if it were restricted to items just related to British history & culture … unless you count colonial theft, of course.

r44 You've never been to the British Museum have you. Their Anglo-Saxon collections are fascinating

R45 - I’ve been many times. It is a great museum.

Sorry for being facetious.

[quote] the Greeks built a beautiful, state of the art museum at the base of the Acropolis

I don't regard this as 'beautiful'.

r46 Sorry if I sound angry. I'm getting vaguely defensive over the British Museum these days. I genuinely think its one of the worlds greatest collections of historical antiquities ever collected (yes most of it gathered by British might during the 19th century but that's just how history works. If Alexander appeared in the 19th century and founded the Macedonian Museum it'd be the same) but one of the biggest complaints I've seen against it is the lack of British history in there but that is genuinely not true the Suton Hoo hoard is one of my favourite parts of the entire place

R10 I wouldn't believe any claim from that newspaper.

It's English but it HATES the English.

[quote]Yes, we all remember when the Ottomans conquered Pittsburgh and sold all the Warhols to the British

That was a tragedy and I'll never forget where I was when that happened. Many people didn't survive and the one's who did contracted windmill cancer.

#NeverForget

The Brits removed mummies from Egypt during a time when locals were burning them. They were even being used as fuel to power trains.

The Greeks are dead broke. Have been for years. And their government is iffy at best. How are they to be trusted with the stewardship of the marbles?

This is the art worlds' version of "Free Britney" with a probable similar outcome. Sounds good but it really isn't.

The marbles aren’t displayed that interestingly at the British Museum. They’re on the walls off in a side room. The only reason people go to them is because of the controversy. The BM has a pamphlet about the issue that tries to sway visitors that the marbles belong at the BM.

[quote] The only reason people go to them is because of the controversy.

It's fair to say that someone who believes that is too ignorant to live.

[quote]I've seen them in the British Museum multiple times - they look fine and well preserved, but it always struck me - wtf are these doing HERE?

And yet, people don't look at European art in American museums and wonder wtf are these doing HERE. It shows that the argument that art only belongs in the geographical area it which it was produced is just crap.

[quote] It shows that the argument that art only belongs in the geographical area it which it was produced is just crap.

There’s a fairly big difference between paintings and state treasures R54 don’t be silly.

[Quote] It's fair to say that someone who believes that is too ignorant to live.

And even with the fame of the Marbles, the gallery was pretty empty on a typical summer weekend. I guess everyone is too ignorant to live…except you, of course

[Quote] And yet, people don't look at European art in American museums and wonder wtf are these doing HERE.

Because museum art isn’t usually plundered. It’s bought, borrowed, donated.

a British-Iraqi artist has just offered to give a work to Tate Modern if the BM gives an Assyrian relief to Iraq to replace one destroyed by Islamic State. That's were we are - the BM is supposed to replace something the Iraqis themselves destroyed in return for a different institution getting something basically worthless.

[quote]Possession being 9/10ss of the law is a fact

It is not a fact. I'm starting to believe that almost no one on DL knows what a fact even is.

If it's pagan art, burn it. If it's Towelhead or Jew art, ship it back to them, C.O.D.

-- Concerned Christian Mothers

R47, from the inside, incredible works are on display with huge windows so you can look at the works with the Parthenon hovering above in all its splendor. Mary, I know, but it is quite an experience. The Greeks did a magnificent job.

History has winners and losers. The Greeks lost the Marbles. Suck it up. On a similar note, I think the "land acknowledgements" now being demanded at the beginning of every event in the US and Canada are ridiculous. Rather than saying "we are standing on land stolen from the Apache", let's tell the whole story. "We are standing on land won from the Apache, who won it from the Cherokee, who won it from the Ottawa, who won it from 14 other tribes who won it from others, dating back to the ones who killed the Neanderthals, who killed the mastodons". (I'm not being literal about tribes - just making a point that people only own things and land as long as they have the power to defend them. When they don't, history moves on.)

I'd have let this Apache scout capture my white ass.

So basically all any country has to do is conquer Britain and everything. Is theirs!

1816 called. They want their narrative back from Marxist revisionists.

[quote] I'm starting to believe that almost no one on DL knows what a fact even is

Marxist revisionists, Prince Harry, and sozzled elder-Dataloungers don't know what facts are.

The Parthenon Museum has—

[quote] huge windows

Having huge windows to look out of it does not excuse the industrial heaviness of this so-called beautiful building.

Have you been there R67? It's not about the museum and no poster said it was a beautiful museum. It is magnificent in how it blends the experience of viewing the artifacts and looking at the Parthenon up above. Besides that, the interior of the building and placement of the artifacts is almost monumental

I wonder why I even address idiots.

"I wonder why I even address idiots."

Perhaps because those who aren't idiots find you tedious and won't talk to you?

R68, today

[quote] no poster said it was a beautiful museum

R8, on Friday

[quote] the Greeks built a beautiful, state of the art museum

R70, a museum is about its collection and how it is presented. No one gives a shit about the outside. This is a the case for the Acropolis museum. Visit it, go inside, trust me, you will experience its magnificence.

R69, you did. The DL is not a conversation and isn't talking, or haven't you noticed yet?

We know how the Greeks take care of things.

R72, so you said that I talked to you, but also that the DL isn't talking. Which is it? I think you may be the "idiot" after all.

The Parthenon Museum project was so successful that it’s Director was chosen to direct the Greek Olympics, which were also a huge success

[quote] No one gives a shit about the outside.

R71 That sentence could only be spoken by a blind man.

[quote] It would also be nice if the UK received Calais back from France.

It was French before the English stole it in 1367, actually.

Looks like they’re headed home ❤️

Interesting how people are still using the excuse that the marbles are “safer” in the British museum.

However, Nazi-stolen art is given back to the owners even if they were in museums

In Athens, you can't put toilet paper in the toilet because their pipes and sewer system can't handle it. Greece should put all of their focus on building a first-world sewer system in Athens. Once they have shown they can accomplish that, only then should discussions occur on Britain relinquishing its rightful ownership of the Elgin Marbles.

Heh, all those smug English nationalists on DL who have been so adamant over the years that they'll never be returned to Greece will have so much egg on their face if this comes to pass.

They can't even recognise how ridiculous they sound. Just look at r81, who somehow conditions the safety of the marbles on the state of the sewage system in Athens – as if London had state-of-the-art sewage when the marbles were stolen – and like he was typing from fifty years ago and the British Empire was still riding high. As much as we bitch about American deplorables, snooty Englismen living in the past are ten times worse, in my opinion.

[quote]its rightful ownership of the Elgin Marbles

Literally stolen loot, but okay. As I said, completely delusional. Russian, Serbian, and English nationalism is by far the worst in Europe, nothing comes remotely close to those three cancers. And I intentionally don't say British because it really is just the English who engage in this "past glories" shit. I enjoy seeing Trump stomp all over you fuckers.

I waited a lifetime to see them in the British Museum, and when I finally did, I was underwhelmed. Maybe I had just set my expectations too high. Make some copies, and send them back.

[Quote] Once they have shown they can accomplish that, only then should discussions occur on Britain relinquishing its rightful ownership of the Elgin Marbles.

England still have different faucets for hot and cold water. It must forfeit the Marbles!

[quote] Once they have shown they can accomplish that, only then should discussions occur on Britain relinquishing its rightful ownership of the Elgin Marbles.

R81 girl they’ve already talked, why are you talking conditional when it’s past and present. Those marbles are going back.

[Quote] I waited a lifetime to see them in the British Museum, and when I finally did, I was underwhelmed. Maybe I had just set my expectations too high. Make some copies, and send them back

I was underwhelmed too. I think it’s the way they are displayed in that big room. Both times I’ve been to the British Museum, visitors were ignoring that room

I mean, it's just incredible to me that Lord Byron already called them stolen and he was on the same fucking ship as the marbles when they were leaving Greece, yet Little Englanders like r81 two centuries later call them "rightfully theirs." A cognitive disconnect only explained by rabid nationalism.

And of course that litany of conditions would never stop. What if Athens improved their sewage (to British standards, I gather)? You'd take issue with the condition of their roads next? Their GDP? Something tells me these excuses would never stop. I just don't understand how someone can contort themselves into even thinking that, let alone typing it out. Total fucking brain rot.

Greece deserves some kind of recompense from the rest of the Western world for agreeing to take on Kimberly Guilfoyle as their US ambassador.

Give them back!!

I was recently disappointed by some watery tzatziki. The marbles stay!

Just give them back.

[Quote] Greece deserves some kind of recompense from the rest of the Western world for agreeing to take on Kimberly Guilfoyle as their US ambassador.

Holy shit! I didn’t know this

The new Acropolis Museum is a brilliant modern venue with a magnificent view of the Acropolis designed specifically for the Parthenon Marbles. Return them where they belong let the limey looters keep replicas in their dreary Victorian crypt.

R73 - holy crap - I know Greece has major financial hardships after 2008 for years and years - but that's just sad to see. Billions poured into developing those facilities and just abandoned.

I have to wonder if the spending on 2004 Olympics started their economic spiral - outside of the fact that no one fucking paid their taxes and they lied to the EU about their finances.

I really don't get it - Greek Americans usually do very well and are very respectable in the US. You never hear about those 'terrible Greeks' - nobody really has much bad to say about them and they work hard.

Why is Greece so fucked up then? Oh and PS - give them back - there's a perfectly fine temp-controlled Museum to house them in their original historical location. Thanks for babysitting them Britain, but give them back.

r79 Is there actually any believable source on this because Guido is the only other site reporting it and they say the Museum has denied anything being reached and from the sounds of it they're still at the stumbling block of Greece saying the British museum actually doesn't have the right to lend them back since they say they don't own them.

R88, Dora Bakoyiannis, former Greek foreign minister and current MP for the governing party, as well as sister of the current prime minister of Greece and daughter of an earlier prime minister of Greece, is delighted with the choice of Kimberley Guilfoyle as amabassador to Greece. So, I think it's safe to say that the Greek government is more than ok with Guilfoyle.

[quote]“What I understand is that this is a woman who is competent, [works] hard at her job, and has the ‘ear of the president’ that she might need. Beyond that, what I hear is sexist, I hate it, let her come and see how she behaves,” Dora Bakoyannis added.

[quote]What possible negotiations would there be? The Brits stole it, as they did probably hundreds of thousands of pieces of art and architecture over hundreds of years of violent and murderous colonialism It’s pretty fucking simple. GIVE IT BACK

Of course, it's simple, but you have to be realistic about the way people are. Inevitably people will defend British ownership using claims that the cries for their return reflect hypocrisy, bandwagon thinking. empty do-gooderism, and a total lack of proportion. You and I know those criticisms are irrelevant, but they are there. I think one thing that would help practically in achieving their return would be if America gave back a symbolic portion of the land previously owned by the native inhabitants. Now, I realize that property was achieved under much more honorable circumstances and that, unlike the Greeks, the Native Americans were not materially harmed by its loss and left with an enviable standard of living. However, I think it could have symbolic importance in countering any spurious claims of hypocrisy and empty headedness if a symbolic return of some of the property could be offered. It wouldn't need to be a material percentage----probably not more than 30 or 40 percent. What do you think?

R97 - ever hear of Indian Reservations? There are tons of them. It's 2.3% of total US land mass and they are owned and run by Indians independent from the government.

No state income taxes or sales taxes on the reservations either - and some exempt federal statuses of varying kinds as well.

So giving back some of the land has already been done. And they built casinos on them, tax-free.

Returning 2.3% of the Elgin marbles to Greece would be like cutting off a hostages ear and mailing it to the family.

R98. Oh. I forgot. Thanks for the reminder. I have heard of reservations and that, like most reservations, they are wonderful.

I guess America did do the right thing by the native inhabitants. America usually does the right thing.

Sounds like you might have a case for Native Americans handing back some of that two or three percent. Or at least owing reparations.

[Quote] I guess America did do the right thing by the native inhabitants. America usually does the right thing.

Sarcasm, I understand.

The US broke EACH AND EVERY treaty it ever signed with every troop. Jackson forced the Southern Indian to walk to the West and use land that wasn’t there. Thousands died. Of course, Americans tried to kill Indians by given them measles-laden blankets. The US govt keeps taking their land and desecrates their holy places.

The Brits stole them. Return them. Pretty simple.

Isn’t that what we demand with Nazi-stolen art?

Generally, there’s no better way to launch a moral defence of your country than a reference to its reservations.

[quote]The Brits stole them. Return them. Pretty simple. Isn’t that what we demand with Nazi-stolen art?

Exactly. People are simply distracted by minor distinctions like the fact that one took place in the early 19th century and the other in the mid-20th century and one involved a genocide of an entire people, and the other didn't. People get very confused.

Just fuck off R104.

R105. Duly noted. You are wonderful!

The self-righteous Americans are pissed.

R95 yea the Times, daily mail (lol) etc. Fantastic news.

r108 The mail

[quote] In responde, the museum said that talks has not advances sinc late last year when the PM hosted Greek counterpart Kyriakos Mitsotakis at No10.

The Times

[quote] In return, Athens would agree to ­provide the museum with revolving displays of other ancient Greek artefacts, many of which have never been shown in the UK. Critically, the deal would not involve the British Museum giving up its legal ownership of the sculptures, which would require a change in the law.

[quote] The plan is for the agreement to come into effect when parts of the British Museum close for refurbishment later this decade as part of planned redevelopment of the Bloomsbury site in London. However, sources stressed that no deal had been completed and an announcement was not imminent.

[quote] However, museum officials denied reports that a deal had already been done, insisting the talks were still some way off reaching a conclusion.

[quote] Downing Street also denied suggestions of an imminent deal. “It remains the case that decisions relating to the management of the Parthenon sculptures are a matter for the trustees of the British Museum, which is operationally independent of the government,” a No 10 spokesman said. “We have no plans to change the law that would allow the permanent loan of the Elgin Marbles.”

Also the times:

[quote] Under an agreement being pursued by the former chancellor, now the chairman of the British Museum, the marbles would return to Greece on a long-term loan deal.

Imagine the Brits are gaining a conscience. I’m shocked. Good for them.

Yes, the British are uniquely horrible. Just look at how they kept all their ill-gotten lands while the US gave all their away.

R111 I’m not American so you can’t get me that way sorry. Remind me where were most of the American colonists from?

r110 He's been trying to negotiate since 2021. As I've said before the stumbling block is Greece won't admit British ownership in order for them to agree they'd only be on loan since that would mean they can be called back at any time, and the British museum and by extension government can't return them in any other form except a loan. Which is why talks have stalled again. Other than in the opinion of a The Critic a website that no one who doesn't have a web alert for "Elgin Marbles" set up has ever heard of.

[quote] Remind me where were most of the American colonists from?

This very relevant! Touché. You are the logician par excellence!

I hope the UK parliament introduces a bill apologizing for the Tulsa Race Massacre, the Japanese internment, etc.

R114 dickhead you’re the one that brought it up 😂 “This is very relevant!” lmao

R115. Dear God. Are you in the advanced stages of dementia? Or illiterate? Or both?

[quote] and the British museum and by extension government can't return them in any other form except a loan.

They can if they change the law. They’re gonna end up sending them back regardless, would be good for them to do it in a more honourable way (I know).

[quote] Are you in the advanced stages of dementia? Or illiterate?

Diagnosis; English.

I am not

[quote] They’re gonna end up sending them back regardless

Are they? News to me given those articles you quoted have even Starmers Labour government that have just made us pay to return some islands say a change in the law is a red line for them Unfortunately for Greece I see very little way they can force a change in the law so the ball is pretty much in the museums court.

[quote] Are they?

Yup. Long term loan from which they’ll never return to UK, while retaining “legal” ownership. Or they could change the law and transfer ownership. Both scenarios end up with them back in Greece, one being the more honourable version of the two. But end result is the same in terms of the objects being in Greece. The Brits being brits means they’re less likely to do the right thing of course. Either way, a step in the right direction. Great news 😍

r121 Dream on. But see you in 10 years when you start a new thread about their imminent return because some waitress at a gyros restaurant got a tip

R122 if it wasn’t happening the brits would have categorically said that it wasn’t happening. Instead we have:

[quote] The prime minister’s spokesman said that the “care and management” of the sculptures was a matter for the British Museum, opening the way for a long-term loan deal that would not require explicit government approval.

This is clear as day.

[quote]from the sounds of it they're still at the stumbling block of Greece saying the British museum actually doesn't have the right to lend them back since they say they don't own them.

Until the Greeks are willing to acknowledge that the British are the valid current legal owners of the Elgin Marbles, there's no point in any other discussion about them.

[quote] the British are the valid current legal owners of the Elgin Marbles

In dispute R124. And discussions are happening even without your express consent ;)

That's fucking preposterous R124! The "Elgin Marbles" are part of the Parthenon and Acropolis of Athens and are a national and historical treasure dating from 447 BCE which belong to Greece. They were obtained unethically by Elgin at a time when Greece was colonised and ruled over by the Ottoman Empire and must be returned to their rightful home. End of discussion.

R126 has spoken! What is the timeline for turning over Australia, Canada, and the United States to their rightful owners? End of discussion.

Great to see members of the wealthy elite campaigning to move objects from a free public museum to a private museum with a high entry fee.

R128 it’s not a private museum, it’s state owned.

R39

And the Greeks gave done 'irreparable ' damage to the Parthenon itself. These sorts of claims get things nowhere.

I hope the BM doesn't give an inch. Most of their artifacts wouldn't be in existence if left to their previous owners or in private ownership by wealthy elite.

What R126 said. If the occupying Nazi's had sold the Mona Lisa to the U.S. the French would have every right to demand its return.

It’s important to have a place where everyone can go to see a selection of all the treasures of the world, instead of having to travel all over the world to find them. I’m never going to be on Easter Island, for example, so it was great to see the statue from there at the BM.

R63

Did you just do a Google search on “hot Apache scouts”?

[quote] If the occupying Nazi's had sold the Mona Lisa to the U.S. the French would have every right to demand its return.

Wouldn’t Italy have a better claim?

"It’s important to have a place where everyone can go to see a selection of all the treasures of the world, instead of having to travel all over the world to find them".

Word!

A.H.

R137, the term is encyclopedic museum.

[quote] Encyclopedic museums are large, mostly national, institutions where objects from all over the world, representing different cultures are kept in one building or a complex of buildings. They offer visitors an abundance of information on a variety of subjects that tell both local and global stories. The aim of encyclopedic museums is to provide examples of each classification available for a field of knowledge. Some scholars note the importance of encyclopedic museums in building civil society, especially given the significant number of people living outside their country of birth. They argue that these institutions benefit society by exposing visitors to a wide variety of cultures, fostering a sense of shared human history.

[quote]What [R126] said. If the occupying Nazi's had sold the Mona Lisa to the U.S. the French would have every right to demand its return.

That is certainly the standard we have applied since World War II and the one we are likely to continue to apply. It is very easy to show this would lead to complete chaos if applied back to the beginning of time. You wouldn't be able to live with the consequences of the standard you are proposing.

I expect horrible writing from The New York Times, but "rests in"?

r140 "Rests in" was part of the collection of obsolete English idiom stored safely in the British Museum until a worldwide shaming campaign concerning its provenance forced the museum to return it to everyday use.