The Lion in Winter (1968)

I prefer Eleanor's entrance over Cleopatra's

Richard the Lionheart and Prince Phillip were lovers. A movie from the 1960's that is not scared to address a gay affair.

Medieval heterosexual camp. What's not to like? The acting is, shall we say, em-PHAT-ic.

R3 I think the acting is great. It exceeds Becket. It really only applies to four central perofrmances:

In Becket, you had O'Toole, Richard Burton, John Gielgud, and Sir Donald Wolfit.

In Lion, you have O'Toole, Katharine Hepburn, Timothy Dalton, and Anthony Hopkins.

I read Janet Suzman was set to play Alys of France, but the Royal Shakespeare Company would not loan her out.

My favorite film, and one of the most quotable movies I can think of. The dialogue fairly crackles, and you can feel the venom in their tirades. "I wonder, do YOU ever wonder, if I slept with your father....."

What's not to like?

Glenn Close and Patrick Stewart's version was, and I'm being kind here, less than stellar. 😝

R4 "[I]t just won't do to have actors carrying on as if this were a genuine, 'deep' historical play on the order of 'A Man for All Seasons' ... They're playing a camp historical play as if it were the real thing—delivering commercial near-poetry as if it were Shakespeare."--Pauline Kael

"I'm a match for anything, aren't you?"

It was, really, a love story.

Katherine Hepburn’s best performance!

This is a great movie. ALL of the actors in it were great. Especially Peter O'Toole and Katherine Hepburn. I liked the atmosphere of it, it really does take you back to that time and I liked the storyline of the relationships with his Son's.. Timothy Dalton as Philip and Anthony Hopkins as Richard and their storyline was interesting and well acted. I never get tired of watching it.

I'm aware of all its' flaws but this is my all time favorite film.

R6 I'm sure they realized what a hard act they were following.

R2, in real life, Geoffrey was the son who was closest to Phillip, and Phillip was said to have done a whole coffin-jumping routine after Geoffrey’s death.

It was amusing to see what a corrupt little bit of fluff Alys was at the end.

Sorry, dear, Eleanor is Henry's only worthy queen, and he's not going to execute his sons for you.

I forget--did Katharine Hepburn go for a British accent in the movie, or did she figure her fake posh American accent was close enough?

Fun and campy, except for Hepburn who is pure ham and quite hideous.

Medieval Golden Girls

R15 She was basically playing herself, as usual.

What fun. LOVE this movie.....Two great hams having a WHALE of a time

Hammy, too wordy, tedious and of course what else does one do with historical events?! Fictionalise the fuck out of them.

Leave history alone if you have zero intention of telling it correctly.

I can see why queens love this frivolous, frothy shit.

[quote]in real life, Geoffrey was the son who was closest to Phillip, and Phillip was said to have done a whole coffin-jumping routine after Geoffrey’s death.

I read that too, in "The Plantagenets", I think. I also read that when it came time, Richard refused to marry Alis, much to Phillip's fury.

Katharine Hepburn saying the word "really": "RAH-lly." "RAH-lly I will! RAH-lly!"

Saw it on stage twice. Once in New York with Stockard Channing and Laurence Fishburne, and once in the Berkshires with Jayne Atkinson and Treat Williams. Thought the women were better than the men in both cases., and I think the film version works better than the stage version.

"I even made poor Louis take me on Crusade. How's that for blasphemy? I dressed my maids as Amazons and rode bare-breasted half-way to Damascus. Louis had a seizure and I damn near died of windburn...but the troops were dazzled."

^^ yes, I thought she was so convincing when she said that. I also liked in the beginning of the movie, when Henry greeted her at the boat. I know people upthread bash this movie, but it is a very good movie and I thought KH and PO, were wonderful together

"If I had managed sons for him instead of all those little girls, I'd still be stuck with being Queen of France, and we should not have known each other. Such, my angels, is the role of sex in history."

The ending both completes and upends the whole film. They bid each other farewell and are laughing madly as Eleanor is taken back to her prison. Henry declares "I hope we never die!" and you can tell that he means it.

And historically, Eleanor survived Henry and acted as one of the regents while Richard was on Crusade. She organized collection of the random when Richard was kidnapped.

How badly did Katharine Hepburn traumatize Anthony Hopkins on the set that years later he impersonated her voice for Hannibal Lecter? "People will say we're in love ..."

[quote]Glenn Close and Patrick Stewart's version was, and I'm being kind here, less than stellar. 😝

'Twas ever thus.

Didn't Hepburn look a lot older than Harris?

Eleanor was older than Henry

Just an example of watching actors "act.". I'd love to see something on that time period but acted out seriously, not just for indulgence.

[quote] Katherine Hepburn’s best performance!

Mary Tyrone from Long Day's Journey Into Night would like to have a word with you.

This was unquestionably Peter O'Toole's most deserving win, relative to the year's competition.

It's difficult to argue that the likes of Brando, Peck or De Niro failed to deliver iconic, justifiably praised performances that have stood the test of time.

But Cliff Robertson? Really?

And the Academy investigated the "excessive and vulgar solicitation of votes" and "many members agreed that Robertson's award was based more on promotion than on performance."

This is Master class level film acting, r33...

Yeah, I really wish this film were more of a boring drag, handling the topic the way it was historically-where nobody interacted with anybody. A thrilless bog of internal dialog. A ‘Look Who’s Talking’ of spotty ugly people in a drab, dank settling.

Horrible, hammy performances.

Preposterous stagey dialogue.

Absurd age difference between Hepburn & O’Toole (Eleanor of Aquitaine was 11 years older than Henry II; Hepburn was 25 years older than O’Toole.)

One of two theatrical adaptations directed by Anthony Harvey (the other being "The Glass Menagerie") where the performances are just about perfect.

I don't believe that any production is "definitive", but Harvey set a high bar with his films.

It's is so, so, so good. One of the very best in the filmography of all involved.

[quote]Preposterous stagey dialogue.

This exactly. Thank you, r38 for saying what we all were thinking!

... with Kimba as The Lion.

[quote]And historically, Eleanor survived Henry and acted as one of the regents while Richard was on Crusade. She organized collection of the random when Richard was kidnapped.

And she was one John's regents, though he mostly refused to listen to her.

Eleanor's life deserves some (if not HBO) Starz/Showtime level multi-part limited series. There's a considerable amount of source material out there & she was a fascinating figure all on her own.

R36, seriously?

It's a masterclass in acting for all those drag queens who do impersonations of Old Hollywood broads like Hepburn, Davis etc.

To paraphrase Homer Simpson; Hepburn "literally chewed the scenery"

[quote] Preposterous stagey dialogue.

The whole thing was positively Brechtian.

Tediously Brechtian.

Hepburn could have been running through any old script by any character (see below).

She's always only ever herself, Eleanor of Aquitaine my ass.

I saw this first run in 1968, At 8, my father would let me pick a movie let me go by my self. I thought it was going to be about lions in the winter so I wasn't very impressed.

A year later he dropped me off at Cactus Flower, which we both thought was going to be one of those Disney, nature, voice-over things. I remember the ticket taker looking at my father when I went to the window, "are you sure?". At work he heard the guys talking about the movie and realized his mistake. If it happened today they'd call the cops.

[quote]I can see why queens love this frivolous, frothy shit.

And they are the EXACT SAME REASONS we despise you r20.

I hope to play this part, some day.

Gonna watch this, I didn't love Bishop's Wife

R46, thanks for that clip. It is the inspiration of a joke on Are You Being Served when Mr. Humphries was dressed as a woman and did that line and I never understood why it was funny.

One of John Barry’s most GLORIOUS scores

[quote] This is a great movie. ALL of the actors in it were great.

[quote] Adapted for the screen by James Goldman, based on his play

His career went down and down after this un-naturalistic, Brechtian, claustrophobic, stage-bound, 1966 talk-fest.

It sure ain't The Christmas with the Crwafords.

Katharine Hepburn is great in this

[quote] Katharine Hepburn is great in this

[quote] I think the acting is great.

[quote] This is a great movie. ALL of the actors in it were great.

[quote] Two great hams

Pauline Kael was 100% right about this film.

R58 what did she say?

[quote] Directed by Anthony Harvey

He did this movie and his career disappeared down a hole.

Pauline Kael said this un-naturalistic talk-fest was full of 'imitation wit and imitation poetry'.

Hepburn to Hopkins—

[quote] Don’t act. Leave that to me; I act all over the place. You don’t need to act. … you’ve got a big body. . . . Just show up and speak the lines.”

Pauline Kael couldn't even manage imitation wit. Thankfully, I am unaware of any attempts by her at poetry.

Pauline really laid into Hepburn and her performance. She thought O'Toole was great, but she felt Hepburn relied too much on her "Hollywood goddess of the screen" persona, which many mistook as a tour de force performance, while Pauline found it appalling and lazy.

It wasn't like Pauline was a major hater of Hepburn, either. She gave her a glowing review for her performance in Long Day's Journey Into Night and said it was Hepburn's crowning achievement.

Anthony Harvey was a competent, uninspired director who someone like Hepburn would like because he wouldn't try to butt heads with her. I was shocked anyone would think his film of GLASS MENAGERIE was good given how miscast Hepburn was as Amanda.

I agree that Kael had the right idea about this movie - it's third-drawer Albee with costumes, and Hepburn carries on like she's doing Shakespeare. I first saw it in college and no one in the audience took it seriously. I did like Timothy Dalton, who is one member of the case who knows exactly what kind of material it is.

[quote] like she's doing Shakespeare.

This movie, Becket, Game of Thrones and those Maxwell Anderson plays are all ersatz plays for people who feel they should like Shakespeare but just can't cope with the effort of Shakespeare.

Or we like them on their own terms, most of them, r66. I couldn't quite get into Becket for some reason, although that does seem like something I want to like. But somehow, I just didn't.

Lion in Winter though, is a treasure.

You sound easily satisfied, R67. You may think differently when you mature.

WE HATE EVERYTHING!

Well, hopefully we can all mature someday r68 and not just curdle.

… or go rancid.

Imagine the level of camp if they had cast Bette Davis in Hepburn's role.

I played a bigger queen, r72...twice!

with an eye patch.

r74, Bette Davis is my all time favorite actress but The Anniversary was HORRENDOUS! THE LION IN WINTER was a much better film.

^ The Anniversary was worse than horrendous.

The Wintry Lion was camp and horrendous.

My only complaint about the Lion in Winter is the too clever by half exchange referencing the knife. Other than that misstep it's terrific.

John: A knife! He's got a knife!

Eleanor of Aquitaine: Of course he has a knife, he always has a knife, we all have knives! It's 1183 and we're barbarians! How clear we make it. Oh, my piglets, we are the origins of war: not history's forces, nor the times, nor justice, nor the lack of it, nor causes, nor religions, nor ideas, nor kinds of government, nor any other thing. We are the killers. We breed wars. We carry it like syphilis inside. Dead bodies rot in field and stream because the living ones are rotten. For the love of God, can't we love one another just a little - that's how peace begins. We have so much to love each other for. We have such possibilities, my children. We could change the world.

^ Normal human beings don't talk like that. Only self-consciously camp people go on with all that declamatory declaration.

Harold Pinter's dialogue is much closer to normal natural speech.

You can’t deodorize a turd.

Anthony Hopkins told a funny story about how Hepburn explained movie acting to him - he'd only ever appeared on stage. They shot a scene together and she told him "your performance would be greatly improved if you didn't turn your back to the camera".

Bitchy but helpful. Respect.

She’s 25 years older than Peter O’Toole and looks doddering.

I will always know it as Lion in The Winter because this is how Ingrid Bergman announced it.

In what was probably 1977, when I was working at a record store in Greenwich Village, a sweet older man would often stop in, and we’d have friendly conversations. I was 28 or so.

He was diffident, but endearing, and indicated he was romantically interested in me. I was flattered, but frightened, because I was very closeted. I really liked him. But I eventually sent him away, making him sad, which I regretted. I just couldn’t handle that open a level of intimacy at that time.

And that was how I met Anthony Harvey.

[quote] Anthony Harvey

Why did his career fail?

This movie came out just 6 years after Lawrence.

And the transformation in O'Toole's face was frankly shocking. Actually 'degradation' is a better description than 'transformation'.

He was haggard and dissolute with bags under his eyes. At least he could wear a beard to cover part of the face.

Even if it is a hamfest, this movie aged well and it's still an enjoyable watch, if for no other reason than to see O'Toole in his prime & Hopkins & Dalton as young men. As someone else noted, Beckett is a movie you're supposed to love, but somehow it just leaves you cold while this movie is an entertaining little gem.

O'Toole's face was blasted by the desert sun for two years during the making of 'Lawrence', so it's no wonder his thin Irish complexion went into rigor mortis way before the rest of him did.

Of course people don't really talk like they do in this movie. It's not a history lesson, but a family drama. Yes, it's quite hammy, but also fun. Also, that dialogue is not that easy to deliver. Patrick Stewart and Glenn Close made a mess of it.

It was shit

I'd prefer the gay fisting XXX version; My Loins in Splinters

Hepburn, O'Toole, Hopkins.

WE'RE ACTORS!!

I could peel you like a pear and God himself would call it justice!

[quote] I read Janet Suzman was set to play Alys of France, but the Royal Shakespeare Company would not loan her out.

She would have been more interesting than the person they chose who was as profound as Sanda Dee.

R51, I hate to do this at Christmas but hand over your gay card.

[quote] One of John Barry’s most GLORIOUS scores

Mr John Barry Prendergast was an extremely clever man but this particular score is heavily reliant on Car Orff—

Why, R23?

Because it was shorter?

[quote]R87: As someone else noted, Beckett is a movie you're supposed to love, but somehow it just leaves you cold while this movie is an entertaining little gem.

I hold Richard Burton responsible for that.

The LESBIAN In Winter

I love Becket, A Man For All Seasons, and The Lion in Winter. ❤❤❤

[quote] I can see why queens love this frivolous, frothy shit

Boy, you sure sound like someone people tend to avoid.

[quote] Becket, A Man For All Seasons, and The Lion in Winter.

Three good examples of Ersatz Shakespeare (suitable for Americans)

or Anne of the Thousand Days

or 'Joan of Lorraine'.

or 'Elizabeth the Queen'.

or 'Mary of Scotland'.

or 'Richard of Bordeaux'.

Don't forget to add Mary Queen of Scots and Nicholas & Alexandra on that list!

The Lion in Winter is basically The Crown. Names remain the same, everything else has been dramatised for US audiences seeking camp dialogue and a total disregard for historical accuracy.

[quote]everything else has been dramatised for US audiences seeking camp dialogue and a total disregard for historical accuracy

It's based on a *play*, r106. It isn't a documentary.

Dumbass incoming at R107.

Honestly, does anybody think Shakespeare's plays were based on "historical accuracy"? Are you kidding me with this nonsense?

Project much, r108?

Bette Davis as Eleanor of Aquitaine would've been a camp riot.

Joan Crawford as Eleanor

It is best enjoyed to watch Becket then The Lion in Winter.

Someone should do a loose remake of this about The Trumps and call it The Lyin' in Winter

Or the Lying-Ass Grifter

Good God! It's Hepburn at her worst. Where she really shines is in Holiday.

R109. Are you going to compare Shakespeare's genius with the Goldmans' boy from Chicago?

WHET John Castle?

I could never watch the movie again and take it seriously after seeing this:

Holiday holds up beautifully.

I was thinking of viewing this over the holidays, is it streaming anywhere, I couldn’t find it?

Watch it here.

Thanks, r122!

Lovely score

R119, that was hysterical

R119 Yes, that was hysterical and accurate.

Burton and O'Toole were both ranters.

Burton occasional did two sentences in sotto voce and then returned to his monotonous ranting. Only strong directors could contain them which is why they both threw their careers away playing in rubbish with weak directors.

Scenery chewing at its most delightful. I love how caustic everyone is.

Haven't seen the film and saw a community theater production so long ago I can't remember many particulars.

But it's fascinating to see that, among various DL posters, this seems to have elicited quite the love it or hate it reaction.

[quote] the love it or hate it reaction.

Young people are swayed by the lavish costumes and scenery.

Mature people are appalled at the blatant scenery-chewing.

I love how cunty everybody in this movie is to each other.

Scenery chewing can be very entertaining. It's what makes some actors so memorable and loved. Pacino, Plummer, Davis, Crawford, Burton. All faaaaamous scenery chewers.

Scenery chewers belong in scenery-chewing movies.

They are trashy and camp.

Well...

This film reminds me of every Christmas with my family. We are all high-camp scenery chewers.

The costumes in this film are anything but lavish.Everyone but Hepburn wears the same thing through the film and they all look dirty.

[quote] all look dirty.

Why does king and his royal family look so dirty?

What is there no palace? Why no courtiers?

Because this mess was dreamt up by a nobody from Chicago.

This Goldman-guy from Chicago was trying to imitate Bertolt Brecht (see R45) who was fashionable back in the 1960s.

Laundromats didn't gain popularity until the next century, r135.

[quote]R136: Why does king and his royal family look so dirty?

Because it was the Middle Ages, and Christianity taught that personal filth was a measure of virtuous piety.

'Becket' (1964) depicts Thomas as having instructed Henry to bathe, but apparently it didn't take. In 'Lion,' Henry is never seen to bathe (save splashing ice water on his face), and his son John is singled out as being particularly unclean (a "walking pustule").

[quote]What is there no palace? Why no courtiers?

You didn't watch the film.

Typical of socks who come here to smear shit on films they haven't themselves seen.

It's a Christmas during the Little Ice Age. Excessive washing during those unheated centuries would have been an invitation to pneumonia.

[quote]R139: It's a Christmas during the Little Ice Age. Excessive washing during those unheated centuries would have been an invitation to pneumonia.

The 'Little Ice Age' didn't begin until nearly a century later than this film is set (1183 CE falls within what's called "the medieval warm period").

And no one is calling for "excessive washing." Just a little hygiene would have gone a long way.

You were opposed to masking during the Pandemic, I bet. You're one of the gay-hating socks pontificating on George Takei's supposed "creepiness" on that thread, and before that, you started another thread screaming about the "antifa goon" in Atlanta.

WTF is this shit about complaining about people not bathing in the Middle Ages? Don't you know history? People didn't bathe very often back then.

If we had a time machine and could go back to the Middle Ages, we would be overwhelmed by the disgusting hygiene and sanitary conditions. Even people at the highest levels of society lived in conditions we would consider unacceptable.

R141, that is a historical fallacy. Bathing didn’t fall out of vogue until later. Peasants bathed daily at home and weekly at a bath house. Royalty bathed even more often.

Peasants did a whore bath daily, not a full bath. The bath houses, or "stews," were disgusting. The water wasn't changed and a person just got into a wooden tub of water that the last person had just used. It wasn't like a modern bathhouse at all.

John Castle was so hot in this

It's just a bunch of theater stars and Katharine Hepburn dressed up in burlap robes making bitchy put-downs and touching each other's emotional sore spots.

It should have been called "Who's Afraid of Eleanor of Aquitaine?" (or "The Boys in the Band Go Medieval").

Unwatchable

[quote]R142: that is a historical fallacy. Bathing didn’t fall out of vogue until later. Peasants bathed daily at home and weekly at a bath house. Royalty bathed even more often.

There's a couple of problems with your source, Tony. One is that 'Dr' Eleanor Janega (who emphasizes her own honorific) is the one dealing with a later period, the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries (her specialty is the 𝑙𝑎𝑡𝑒 medieval period).

Another is that she seems to be part of a relatively recent trend in scholarship towards apologetics on behalf of the historical Roman Catholic Church, whitewashing both it and the medieval period in general (to any extent that the Church or Christianity can be seen to have been responsible) of charges of ignorance and atrocity ('Christians did not destroy books or knowledge, but instead preserved it;' 'the Middle Ages were not filthy, but clean;' 'the so-called Dark Ages were not dark,' etc.). It's a bit ironic that one of her attributed specialties is said to be 𝑝𝑟𝑜𝑝𝑎𝑔𝑎𝑛𝑑𝑎, since she may well be disseminating some. (That she sprinkles her blog output with profanity does not make her more 'hep,' but is rather more characteristic of the rhetorical aggression practiced by many of these self-appointed champion scholars of the Church.)

The paintings and illustrations offered by Janega, late though they are, do not depict the daily activities of everyone, but rather the wealthier classes. The bathing practices were likely depicted because they were regarded as unusual, rather than common.

In the Middle Ages, Christian monks often advocated the discipline of 𝑎𝑙𝑜𝑢𝑠𝑖𝑎, the state of being unwashed. Lice were called "the pearls of God."

The turd in the toilet 💩

The alternative cast:

Henry II- Alan Bates

Eleanor- Barbara Stanwyck

Richard the Lionheart- Albert Finney

John- Tom Courtenay

Geoffrey- Derek Jacobi

Prince Philip- Michael Jayston

Alais- Britt Ekland

The Bishop- Reginald Owen

Captain Marshall- Leo McKern

On the dark web you can still find there's Helen Lawson's two scenes as Eleanor - the arrival on the river and then the pull-up-the-drawbridge gag that got her fired.

R147 That’s interesting and closer to my understanding of that era. But how did you ever find a way to use italics here? You must be top computational scientist posting from a some lab, maybe DARPA or someplace like that.

[quote]Peasants did a whore bath daily

Pics please.

[quote]R151: But how did you ever find a way to use italics here?

Datalounge has an established way to use italic and bold; just click on 'Help' in the upper right hand corner, and then 'More Help.' There is a list of FAQs, with the last one being instructions on 'Post Formatting,' which will tell you how to do it.

That said, I don't like to use DL formatting, because it's extremely easy to screw up and not get the result you want. I typically use a free outside online text source, like Yaytext. It has several options, although using combination fonts like Bold / italic (serif) often does not display properly here; it's buggy with certain letter characters. But 'italic' and 'bold' work fine.

Still other free online text links will permit you to do a few different fonts which will display here, do underlined words or strikethroughs, perhaps even upside-down text.

Great film

R153 People who are obsessed with archaic knowledge are bores.

This film is boring

The end where they are laughing and waving - the whole thing is just a huge game between them, albeit one that was also deadly serious.

"Let's deny them all and live forever!" "Tusk to tusk for all eternity!"

Yes, indeed.

Thank you, R177, John Castle was indeed gorgeous, I’ve had a retrospective crush on him for years, amd he aged into middle age very nicely.

I'm sorry, but Hepburn is ridiculous in this. That bizarre, leering grin plastered on her face through most of it is, well, bizarre. I doubt medieval queens let alone Eleanor of Aquitaine swanned around their castles grinning like they're shooting a Crest commercial. Her intentionally shrill voice and characteristically mannered up to HERE performance grates even more than usual. Just complete cinematic dreck. Never understood the love for this film.

R159 revoking your gay card

My husband would have this on a 24 hour loop if he could. Makes me insane. I seem to be the only gay who is NOT enchanted by this movie or Hepburn. Take away my gay card.

Revoke away r160. But r159 gets to keep the toaster oven.

This shit is coming up on TCM today

I’m watching this until my boyfriend gets home.

Who cares about the scenery chewing? the movie is great fun to watch. If only they had gone a bit further with Philip and Richard...

It's a costume drama, so of course, much of the acting won't be subtle. Hepburn & O'Toole obviously had a good time with this, which gives it some energy.

I'll take Beckett any day over Lion. Hepburn was always too shrill.

Becket

"WILL YOU LET ME OUT FOR EASTUHHHHH!???"

Hate this movie and dislike all Hepburn except early career, when all her mannerisms were charming and chic.

Oh, I love this film. My parents went to the Irish premiere and I still have the programme. The script lends itself to endless reuse: "What would you have me do? Give out? Give up? Give in??" That and, "How about eternal peace?" get said the most around here.

Hammy, dysfunctional family fun for all, and agreed, R124, a beautiful score.

Apologies, R52, you remarked on the loveliness of the score too.

O'Toole and Hepburn got along famously and for years after, would prank each other by leaving a sword (? someone please correct me) from the film in the other's dressing room or hotel room if timing and opportunity presented itself. This was Hepburn's first film after Spencer Tracy died and O'Toole must have reminded her enough of the old man that she enjoyed sparring with him.

Who goes to a movie for historical accuracy? That's for documentaries.

The original Broadway cast looks interesting. Robert Preston and Rosemary Harris.

Yes John Castle was unbelievably gorgeous. He should have had a great career but then for some reason seems to have disappeared. Maybe doing theater in England? My favorite line is Hepburn's to him 'Well well what shall we do with mother.'

I love the instant scenery chewing, salacious content and Timothy Dalton.