The White Lotus, Season 2 (thread 6)

Interested to see what happens like this. I hope like last season there are lots of things that we cannot possibly see coming--that's one of the things I loved about last season. I expected Tanya would pull out of the massage therapy project with the woman who worked at the Maui hotel, but I did not expect the Alexandra Daddario character would stay with her husband, and I think no one expected to see Armond shit on the luggage or be stabbed accidentally by Shane with the pineapple knife.

I’m sticking with my outlandish theory that Dom’s wife is going to show up and kill at least one person.

[quote] I feel like this show would be truly amazing f they really fleshed out the characters and gave them better resolutions. When I say "better resolutions", I don't mean crowd pleasing payoffs, just something with a little more bite.

It's easier to pander to the masses and produce what is essentially soft pron. Isn't that what gets it all the major headlines?

T & A rather than character development. Story old as Hollywood.

I still think the death(s) would be accidental. Nobody intentionally killed someone. Just like in S1.

Same here R4.

R4 I hope not. Itd be boring if every season is full of accidental deaths. Gotta throw intentional murder in there.

I don't think any of the bodies is Cameron. Daphne's reaction wasn't quite like it would be if she her husband floating.

So.....Lucia, Portia and Bert seem to be everybody's fave choices for victims?

It's very quick, but it looks like Cameron is the one who intercepts Daphne on the beach as she is coming out of the water at the beginning of episode 1.

Ethan gets taken out by a riptide leaving Harper a very rich but guilt-ridden widow.

As the show went on, Valentina grew on me, Portia irritated me , Dom got more pathetic and sad, charmed by the hookers at first but quickly saw them as vipers, turns out Bert was a horrible father, hated Cameron and Daphne from the get go.

The moment that Valentina shares with the two stray cats, while she eats her lunch alone, was so heartbreaking.

I'm going to watch this dumb movie next on HBO so I won't miss any of it.

Predictions:

Albie kills Lucia's pimp by accident, but Bert takes the fall. That would make his "there's no love left for me" comment from last week more meaningful. This is the body Daphne finds. Later, we find out Lucia was playing Albie all along.

Quentin tries to kill Tanya with the gigolo's gun but misses and kills Greg, who has returned to see his scheme to the end. Distraught over killing the love of his life, Quentin commits suicide. (I kind of hope this doesn't happen.)

R14, you should be writing for Days of our Lives (not meant to be snarky).

This guy does funny impressions of White Lotus characters:

Illegal immigrants from a capsized raft trying to cross the Mediterranean. And Portia.

At times this show panders, other times, it's more realistic and subdued.

I was looking at the previous thread and can’t believe almost every reply is from the same person. Scary.

I am excited to watch tonight, it's not often I enjoy a show this much. Go Mike White!

Soon, all will be revealed.

Is r20 serious? Does he think he’s a commercial?

On a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being fully satisfied and a 1 being bitterly disappointed I predict it will be a 7 for me on or around 10:20 pm EST.

Hey, Miss r21, I've already gotten a couple of W/Ws.

I saw a side-by-side picture of Tanya in the same dress as the wax figure in the car from The Godfather in an earlier episode. I’ll be pissed if she’s offed!

R23 how nice. Do they actually matter when it’s you giving them to yourself? The same way you kept replying to yourself on the other thread.

The wax figure being the wife who explodes.

You also said something about Sabrina’s nose on the other thread. She’s Italian. Real Italians have always had larger noses.

Loved Mia telling Valentina she was good in bed.

I’ve seen the ending….it’s controversial for sure and I think u queens are gonna be talking about this for many days

Ethan is making me nervous but Cameron is still alive

Portia you in danger girl

Will Sharpe is extremely sexy when he's playing angry.

Jack is not so attractive now, eh?

And here comes the blackmail?

The prenup… ding ding 🛎 ding

R29 how convenient you saw the ending when the showrunners didn’t even allow most critics to see it.

Daphne kills Ethan?

[r36] I’m not a critic. If you have HBO max you can fast forward to the ending now if u want.

As soon as it posted I fast forward to the ending and saw who died and then rewound and to start it over.

I’m not a fan of what happened

R38 why would you fast forward to the end instead of just watch the episode? Wtf. That’s weird as fuck.

This finale has been phenomenal. Much much better than last season.

"These gays... they're trying to murder me!"

Tanya ends up killing the gigolo?

Tanya kills them all?

Tanya's gigolo look like a much, much handsomer Freddie Mercury.

Chekhov's gun! It was used!

"You've GOT this!"

*THUD!*

*SPLASH!*

Tanya killed off. Great. Greg is now filthy rich!

Albie is such a patsy!

Jack did Portia a solid by not killing her. She knows she lucked out since he is "deranged".

Great ending.

What a great show

Lucia hugged the guy at the end she implied was her pimp--he was a doorman at the hotel. Was he just her boyfriend and they were pulling a con on Albie?

Why do you keep replying from other accounts? Saying the same exact thing over and over but switching a couple words around.

Okay now that people have seen it I can post again.

1) I kept hoping for a cameo from Laura Dern who voiced the wife. I’m sad that didn’t happen.

2) I feel Aubrey Plaza was given good material but wasn’t given “the scene” that she would need to win the Emmy

3) Jennifer Coolidge was hilarious but I hated to see her go that way

R52 DID YOU WATCH THE EPISODE??? You really really need this explained? It wasn’t all self-explanatory to you like it was everyone else????

What's His Name got away, he jumped ship.

Holy shit, great finale. None of my presumed dead were it. At one point I thought Daphne was going to kill Ethan, or Ethan kill Harper, Jack kill Portia. Stressful scenes. Loved every tense second.

The third season is going to be a satiric treatment of "death, Eastern religion, and spirituality," according to Mike White in the aftershow.

Laura Dern just voiced his wife. We see Dominick looking at a family pic and the woman is not Laura Dern. Which is believable, as Albie’s mom wouldn’t look like Laura Dern and I get the sense that those men tend to marry “their own”, aka Italians.

R57 because you’re an uneducated idiot. Anyone with half a brain knew none of them were dying. Tanya was the only one of the rich crew who had a chance with death.

I guess Tanya hit her head on the dinghy which caused her to lose consciousness and drown?

In the featurette on HBO Max Mike White basically confirms it will be Asia for S3, the season will he about death and Eastern spirituality. He said S1 was about money and S2 was about sex.

I thought the finale managed a great job of not being disappointing.

I think Daphne busted Ethan’s cherry and that’s why he was finally able to get it on with Harper.

R60 oh sugar booger, why so grumpy? Did you poopie your panties?

I see Matt Anscher is in full evidence on this thread again, screaming at people who ask questions and assuming in his schizoid paranoia everyone is switching back and forth between accounts.

Is Greg having an affair?

Laura Dern was not the voice of the wife. Michael Imperioli has said it was one of the producers, he specifically asked for this person.

It wasn't Laura Dern in the photos on his phone.

But we were told in the press that Laura Dern did the voice of the wife in the first episode.

People thrash against the bars of their cages. But they stay in their cages.

I'm only sorry they all didn't die.

Uh oh the smarter than you guy is back on this thread.

Dear HBO, please bring back the actor who played Jack in some capacity. Another show, we don't care. It would be a shame for that beautiful face and magnificent body to go to waste.

[quote]Laura Dern was not the voice of the wife

Loved it. Satisfying ending. Mike Whites explanation of Tanya’s demise was perfect.

Mike White never disappoints!

R68 yes. They didn’t use Laura Dern because it isn’t believable that Dominick would marry and procreate with her, nor would her child with him look like Albie

R72 beautiful to you. I didn’t find him attractive. I actually found him meh. He has that super British face

Yeah Daphne fucked Ethan.

OMG R77 I so disagree but you're entitled to your opinion even if it is wrong.

The buildup to the finale of White Lotus was so intense, it was bound to be a disappointment, and so it was for me.

But overall, I love the show, the writing, and everything about it.

On some level I was kind of hoping Harper and Cameron would fuck but great finale overall.

"Ethan, years from now when you talk about this - and you will - please be kind."

- Daphne

I must have this R77 ignored.

Could Portia wear uglier shoes?

Do you think the next will be Portia on a spiritual journey?

R61 thanks for stating what has been said by me since thread 1. Season 1 was about money aka wealthy privilege with a side of racial privilege as a “subplot”.

Season 2 is about sex aka sexual politics and how one can use sexuality to get ahead, fall behind, get conned or do the conning etc especially when attractive. Lucia and Mia both are the perfect examples of sexual politics. They both used their looks and sexuality (and sex) to get what they wanted. Daphne uses sex as revenge for her husbands infidelity, and it’s her way of taking her own power back. Harper flirted with Cameron to gain the upper hand and make Ethan feel how she’s been feeling.

And one can go on and on about how sexual politics was the foundation of this season.

R83 you don’t. At least not on the many many other accounts you keep replying on.

The previous thread was almost all you. That shit was scary to see when I looked into it.

Shit, now I have nothing to look forward to watching on Sunday nights. I'm ready for Succession.

Cameron and Daphne are headed for an ugly divorce. Those kinds of games will ultimately catch up with them.

By the end I was bored with Ethan and Harper.

The demise for Tanya was perfect.

I can see Portia in Japan, but also Ethan visiting his parents' homeland with beloved wife Harper.

Or Greg spending yens like a drunken sailor in a geisha house.

All of the paranoid I'm-smarter-than-you troll's posts so far on this thread:

[quote] [bold] I was looking at the previous thread and can’t believe almost every reply is from the same person.[/bold] Scary.

[quote][bold] Is r20 serious?[/bold] Does he think he’s a commercial?

[quote]R23 how nice. [bold] Do they actually matter when it’s you giving them to yourself? The same way you kept replying to yourself on the other thread.[/bold]

[quote]You also said something about Sabrina’s nose on the other thread. She’s Italian. Real Italians have always had larger noses.

[quote]R29 [bold]how convenient you saw the ending when the showrunners didn’t even allow most critics to see it.[/bold]

[quote]R38 why would you fast forward to the end instead of just watch the episode? [bold] Wtf. That’s weird as fuck.[/bold]

[quote]This finale has been phenomenal. Much much better than last season.

[quote][bold] Why do you keep replying from other accounts? Saying the same exact thing over and over but switching a couple words around.[/bold]

[quote]R52 [bold] R52 YOU WATCH THE EPISODE??? You really really need this explained? It wasn’t all self-explanatory to you like it was everyone else????[/bold]

[quote]Laura Dern just voiced his wife. We see Dominick looking at a family pic and the woman is not Laura Dern. Which is believable, as Albie’s mom wouldn’t look like Laura Dern and I get the sense that those men tend to marry “their own”, aka Italians.

[quote]R57 [bold] because you’re an uneducated idiot. Anyone with half a brain knew none of them were dying.[/bold] Tanya was the only one of the rich crew who had a chance with death.

[quote] R68 yes. They didn’t use Laura Dern because it isn’t believable that Dominick would marry and procreate with her, nor would her child with him look like Albie

[quote]R72 beautiful to you. I didn’t find him attractive. I actually found him meh. He has that super British face

[quote] [bold]R61 thanks for stating what has been said by me since thread 1.[/bold] Season 1 was about money aka wealthy privilege with a side of racial privilege as a “subplot”. Season 2 is about sex aka sexual politics and how one can use sexuality to get ahead, fall behind, get conned or do the conning etc especially when attractive. Lucia and Mia both are the perfect examples of sexual politics. They both used their looks and sexuality (and sex) to get what they wanted. Daphne uses sex as revenge for her husbands infidelity, and it’s her way of taking her own power back. Harper flirted with Cameron to gain the upper hand and make Ethan feel how she’s been feeling. And one can go on and on about how sexual politics was the foundation of this season.

He's killed off all his gay characters in both seasons, I think. Mike White is like a gay incel.

I got tired of hearing Tanya whimper helplessly.

So the title “byg” was for bury your gays?

R89 if he’s planning on making the focus Spirituality, Japan isn’t where he’s filming. Probably Thailand.

Ugh, I hope they start filming season 3 soon! I am going to miss this.

Oooooh what if they filmed in Nepal or Bhutan?

I doubt there would be any White Lotus type resorts in Japan.

Harper did do more with Cameron. But they didn’t fuck. They did mess around though. And while a certain someone on here kept questioning it over and over on his accountS, I was trying to say that at the beginning of episode 6 Mike White made it a point to show that the door that links the two suites was closed and locked. When Ethan comes in the room the door is now unlocked and open.

So yes, Cam and her messed around. When she admitted it (sorta) this episode it wasn’t a shock if you noticed that detail. Mike White is very good at what he does. Definitely not a show for the bleak and uneducated

Even if they started filming S3 tomorrow it wouldn't appear on HBO until next winter.

So where is Greg?

R99 we are probably gonna see him again next season, based on what Mike White said. Sounded like we may see what happens with Greg.

Also, Cameron knows those kids aren’t his.

r99, Mike White said in the aftershow that it's unlikely Greg got away with it since they would have found all those bodies on the yacht and would have started asking questions. But he also hinted he fullest answer might be given in another season.

This would be the PERFECT hotel for next season

It took long enough for that guy on the shore to break up Ethan and Cameron's fight in the water. He looked a lot closer. Slow swimmer, I guess.

I thought this season was dragging...nothing much happens and all we were doing is waiting for the finale to see who the bodies were...to me it just wasn't worth it...I love Coolidge, but I thought the writing and arc of the whole season were dull and spiritless...

R104 they weren’t deep enough for him to swim to them from shore. He had to run to them.

R105 no. YOU did. Because the show is too smart for you. You’re not the demographic for this show. But you wanna feel “in” so you watch stuff you don’t even understand

Nobody is as smart as the smarter than you troll ;)

More fun posts from the troll, since he keeps posting more of his paranoid and grandiose bi-polar bullshit:

[quote] R83 you don’t. [bold]At least not on the many many other accounts you keep replying on. The previous thread was almost all you. That shit was scary to see when I looked into it.[/bold]

[quote]R89 if he’s planning on making the focus Spirituality, Japan isn’t where he’s filming. Probably Thailand.

[quote]Harper did do more with Cameron. But they didn’t fuck. They did mess around though. [bold]And while a certain someone on here kept questioning it over and over on his accountS,[/bold] I was trying to say that at the beginning of episode 6 Mike White made it a point to show that the door that links the two suites was closed and locked. When Ethan comes in the room the door is now unlocked and open.So yes, Cam and her messed around. When she admitted it (sorta) this episode it wasn’t a shock if you noticed that detail. Mike White is very good at what he does. [bold]Definitely not a show for the bleak and uneducated[/bold]

[quote]R99 we are probably gonna see him again next season, based on what Mike White said. Sounded like we may see what happens with Greg.

[quote]Also, Cameron knows those kids aren’t his.

[quote]R104 they weren’t deep enough for him to swim to them from shore. He had to run to them.

[quote]R105 no. YOU did.[bold] Because the show is too smart for you. You’re not the demographic for this show. But you wanna feel “in” so you watch stuff you don’t even understand[/bold]

Great finale. Tanya being the body in the ocean was totally unexpected since Mike White said in an interview he wanted to use the character again, implying she survives.

The real question is what happened between Ethan and Daphne. I'll go with they fucked and that awakened Ethan's sex drive.

This season was about equal to season one, with some parts better and some parts worse. Season one had more humor. But season two was a little better written.

Foreplay in the surf, and both men recognized it for what it was. Cue the waves crashing against the shore.

Ethan has been wanting to fuck Cameron since college, and finally got his chance through Harper, vicariously. Cue the waves crashing against the shore.

I hope the "spiritual" Season Three doesn't saddle us with the "ghost" of Tanya. With so many questions left unanswered plot points unresolved, I half-expected the words "to be continued" following the end credits.

STY (smarter than you) troll is triggered.

@R-111: "... left unanswered *and* plot points ...

The smarter than you troll must be generally annoying since it's blocked already.

I was pleasantly surprised that Tanya died. I love Jennifer Coolidge, and I’d have been fine with her continuing to be on future seasons, but it was a gutsy move by Mike White to kill off the star of the franchise.

I’d love to see Parker Posey on the next season.

Tanya was both the killer and the dead body. That is a little surprising.

I did like that Tanya took out all the men who threatened her, even if she did die accidentally at the end.

Poor Tanya. I thought JC acted the hell out of that sequence, I was legitimately scared for her.

At first I thought that by showing Lucia and Mia walking alog the street with their arms around each other, we were meant to think they were lovers. But they didn’t kiss romantically and Mia was depressed in ep 1 because she had broken up with her boyfriend and she told Valentina she wasn’t a lesbian. So apart from hooking, this scam (with the friend pretending to be a sinister pimp) is the real way the girls make a killing. Plus, Mia’s dream of being an entertainer came true.

Both Albie and Portia needed a wakeup call from their respective assumptions, they both neededto be roughed up. Would love to see Adam Di Marco again, don’t care if I ever see Haley Lu Sumo Wrestler ever again.

I liked the scene in which Dominic told Albie that he had transferred the money but that he wasn’t going to obligate Albie to put in a good word for him with Albie’s mother, and then Albie telling Dominic that he had already done that. It was a sweet “Gift of the Magi” kind of moment.

[[quote]He's killed off all his gay characters in both seasons, I think. Mike White is like a gay incel.

What's his name got away by jumping off the boat and the gay captain survived also.

I loved the ending. I thought it wrapped up everything perfectly.

Valentina didn’t die. Your homomisogyny is showing!

"Is Greg cheating on me?"

Well, that was some homophobic crap... All the evil gays die, & the pure & holy straights live happily ever after, except Tanya, but, that's what she gets for hanging around fags, right? Hundreds of women & little girls are murdered in the USA every year, roving bands of gay men are responsible, of course!

Lighten up R124. I hope you're being facetious.

[quote]"Is Greg cheating on me?”

Ha-ha. Tanya definitely became more dizzy and stupid as the series went on. She should have gotten away from those men when she saw Quentin getting fucked by his "nephew".

Telling Quentin the guy in the photo looked like Greg wasn't such a smart move either. I can't believe so many viewers saw Tanya as savvy let alone intelligent.

Mike White is a typical self-hating Gen Xer who hasn’t gotten over being a “faggot” circa high school in 1986, something that is probably highlighted and underlined for him since his Jesus Freak dad was one too.

Clock the half-step up from Bret Easton Ellis “super straight but simultaneously super gay” arcs for Ethan (redemption through vicarious lovemaking with his wife but really with his fratty college roommate) and Quinn in season one (redemption through doing shirtless team sports with a bunch of hunky Hawaiians).

I want Will Sharpe’s feets in my mouth.

Now we know why Greg was so irrationally pissed off when Tanya showed up with her assistant.

Almost nothing I expected to happen happened (with the exception of Quentin and his crew dying) but I like the finale. Hugo was the name of the guy who got away. I think.

I’m happy nothing bad happened to Valentina and that she seemed a little happier at the end. She didn’t even yell at hot Rocco for touching Isabella. I hope she goes clubbing with Mia and gets a girlfriend.

Also happy that Albie remained a nice guy. It was interesting the shot of Albie, Dom, and Bert turning to check out the pretty girl at the airport. Was that a sign that cheating is in Albie’s blood? Maybe.

I would like Greg’s fate to be touched upon in season three. Maybe Greg will take his new girlfriend to the White Lotus Asia on Tanya’s dime and he’ll be the next White Lotus death.

So, another case of Bury Your Gay Icons.

I thought Daphne was going to push Ethan off the monument thing when they went to take a walk. The way we got a lingering shot of the waves breaking on the rocks made me think Ethan’s body was going to be falling down in them soon.

Instead, she must’ve fucked him.

Glad we can finally put the ‘where did Ethan and Cameron go to college’ debate from two threads ago to bed— they went to Yale.

Who called it?

I thought Ethan was going to slice his foot open on a chunk of ceramic and bleed out.

Now he will reply to himself saying he called it.

Cameron is such an asshole and I’m glad I don’t know anyone like him in real life, but Theo James looked hot as hell in the water right before Ethan attacked him. And Will Sharpe looked very nice in his wet, white tshirt.

The Peppa Pig line was improvised

R135 I’m not that guy who was debating it obsessively in that thread. Just thought I’d mention it in case anyone missed it.

Well, at least there was no shitty luggage to contend with. And Portia lost all those ghastly outfits, let’s hope she makes better choices in replacing them.

She’s broke. That is why her wardrobe was so bad.

I would still like to know that Daphne actually sealed the deal to get Ethan’s investment and she’s been the secret weapon all along.

Did Daphne and Tanya have any interactions when she was alive? I can’t remember episodes 1 or 2 very well, but maybe they chatted during a breakfast?

Based on Mike White's comments in the end, I'm guessing Greg will be a main character in the next season, bearing all of Tanya's wealth while trying to outrun questions around her suspicious death. It would be interesting to see how a more directly villainous character is handled in the context of this show. Also, will Portia, who has most of the pieces to put together, show up as well, or will she leave well enough alone?

I assumed that the body would be the gay guy who jumped overboard. Tanya’s demise was sad but unexpected and certainly memorable 😆.

Well, after a long history of dead Italian hookers, there finally deserve to be some who get a happy ending. But both Dom and Albie better get a STI screen upon returning and hope the worse they get is a nasty little father/son case of Chlamydia.

If I was Portia I’d forget all about Tanya. Take Jack’s warning seriously- they are dangerous people.

Just when Tanya and Portia were getting to be friends. Damn.

That "You got this!" was hilarious.

“Do you know these gays? Do you know these gays? The gays are going to murder me… so they can decorate their houses or whatever”

I was not expecting her to be the one to die. But it was fitting. Lol.

WL Season 2: Belinda’s Revenge

R149 I laughed my ass off when she said that.

Season 3- Daphne in Japan showing people pictures of her new 1/4 Asian baby.

So Greg is the character that gets to be in all 3 seasons? Not the character I'd expect to have a series centered around. A scummy guy but very bland.

[quote]I assumed that the body would be the gay guy who jumped overboard. Tanya’s demise was sad but unexpected and certainly memorable 😆.

It's assumed that the body floating in the water where Daphne was swimming was either the guy who jumped off the boat or Tanya. But wasn't the yacht far from the resort? I realize it was the next day, but would either body have ended up by the resort? Did I miss something?

Idk how much the Italian police would investigate the deaths if Niccollo was actually a mafia guy (they’d be told to leave it probably), but they could connect Quentin to Greg by the photo if they really tried. Didn’t Tanya mention it to Portia? And she said ‘the prenup’. If Portia gave a shit she could definitely implicate Greg.

And how dumb was Portia to confront Jack about sleeping with his uncle when they were alone in a car? I don’t like her but I was worried Jack was going to kill her then. He looked quite frightening.

Is there going to be some bizarre twist that Tanya survived hitting her head? I put nothing past most of these cable series.

PITCH perfect IMO

For S3, Portia could run into a recently separated Cameron on a plane and explain what happened with Greg. Then Portia could go on with her spiritual journey. I don’t need to see Greg again.

Do we want to see Portia again?

R155, I think the complication would be that even if the Italian police didn't pursue an investigation because of the mafia connections, Tanya was too wealthy for the whole affair to be swept neatly under the rug. Someone on the American side is likely to take an interest, if nothing else.

Where were the stairs on the yacht that lead to the dingy? Were they at the back of the boat, right near Tanya? Nicolo had to get onto the yacht somehow.

Tanya freaked out and didn’t think about how to get down. It fits her ditzy character.

[quote] For S3, Portia could run into a recently separated Cameron on a plane and explain what happened with Greg. Then Portia could go on with her spiritual journey. I don’t need to see Greg again.

R158 I'd be okay with seeing Portia for just this one scene in the S3 premiere episode, where she sets up Greg to get bilked out of Tanya's fortune by handing it over to whatever illicit Ponzi scheme Cameron is running.

It's going to be Greg in season 3 for SURE

Unless season 3 is a prequel, we won’t see JC again.

If Greg is the main character in season 3 I'll probably skip it.

HAHAHA SO dramnatic,. YOU WILL NOT

Coolidge is done. She’s making commercials and bad movies with Jennifer Lopez. RIP Tanya.

said with 12 year old girl voice. "if greg is the main character I'm NOT WATCHING WAHHHHHHHHH!'

R162 I agree. I'm sure in such an adrenaline-filled situation your thoughts are all over the place, but I rewound the scene to watch it a few times and thought, "She would have been just fine if she jumped into the water and swam over to the dinghy instead of trying to land right into it."

Did Lucia's "pimp" work at The White Lotus or was that another hotel at the very end?

Yes, Cameron and Portia bilk Greg and then she becomes Cameron’s assistant and they go to Japan.

Gold

Still wearing her high heels, too. I was expecting a broken leg.

[quote]Someone on the American side is likely to take an interest, if nothing else.

They'll look at the person who benefitted the most from Tanya's death and hone in on Greg. They'll then try and connect who Tanya was with, with Greg.

[quote]"She would have been just fine if she jumped into the water and swam over to the dinghy instead of trying to land right into it."

And Tanya was drunk, scared and could never do anything for herself anyway. It's totally in character for her to accidentally off herself. There was also still one more person on the boat.

[quote]And how dumb was Portia to confront Jack about sleeping with his uncle when they were alone in a car? I don’t like her but I was worried Jack was going to kill her then. He looked quite frightening.

I thought it was incredibly dumb but at least Jack turned out to like her enough not to hurt her.

Instead of him driving her back, he took her to an airport and warned her not to go back to the hotel. I took it to mean that someone was going to kill her too at the hotel to tie up any loose ends. It's possible that someone would have been different than the one who was supposed to off Tanya. It might have even been his directive.

Portia was weirdly compliant with the whole kidnapping thing. As soon as Jack passed out I would have been trying to get away from him.

I've always been terrible at predictions and figuring out "whodunit". I tend to just watch and enjoy.

For instance, it probably never would have occurred to me that Jack was a hustler, if so many posters on here hadn't pegged him as one from his first scene. Same with the Greg-Quentin connection.

I am, however, taking great pride in the fact that I knew the hooker was taking Albie for his dad's money, and that the so-called "pimp" wasn't a pimp at all, and was totally in on it. I even posted about it as soon as that "pimp" made an appearance. I knew it was BS. Yay me!

Coolidge seemed to have saved her best acting for her final scenes. I thought she was pretty great at the end. Tough to portray genuine fear and paranoia convincingly, when you've been the comic relief all season.

I loved the first episodes but hated the finale.

We never really get the Cameron quartet understood, and what happened on that walk with Daphne?

The boat scene was like something out of a bad 19th century tragic opera, which is why the music was, indeed, tragic opera, but it was just silly and poorly executed.

Was there ever any question that Albie was being taken?

All in all, the show promised far more than it delivered.

Question: if Portia never went back to the hotel, how did she get all her stuff and her tickets, etc?

She had her purse and phone. Guess that was enough to get back to America

She didn't. Assuming she was carrying her passport with her, that's all she would need. Surely she didn't have physical plane tickets, and even if she did, those aren't necessary anymore.

She got her phone back for the ticket. And was still wearing that tragic outfit from Palermo at the airport. No luggage. She'll have to raid Lizzie McGuire's closet when she's back in the US.

I'm not sure Greg will be back at all in season three. Sounds like Daphne is the new Tanya and it will follow her (and Cameron?) to the Maldives.

[quote] It's assumed that the body floating in the water where Daphne was swimming was either the guy who jumped off the boat or Tanya.

What? We see it’s Tanya’s body.

I thought the fired piano player was going to come back and kill Valentina and/or Mia.

[quote]What's his name got away by jumping off the boat

Signora Thing was like "OOH NO MA'AM, I'M OUTTA HERE!"

Cameron is hot but I’m done with him. Ethan and Harper too.

I supposed I’d be alright with Daphne coming back. With her hot blond trainer, but I don’t think she will.

The actress was great in the scene where Ethan tells her he thinks something happened with cam and Harper. Her minor facial expressions said so much.

Signora Thing emitted a bit of a Diana Scream while jumping off the boat. I cackled.

Yes, R187, she nailed that scene.

Valentina got a BADONK!

I thought Valentina was going to punish Isabella for manipulating her by moving her to the beachside position and bringing her fiancé Rocco back into the hotel reception area.

[quote]We see it’s Tanya’s body.

Yes, we see her body, but is she really dead? We didn't see her body in the body bag. Someone upthread also assumed it was the man who jumped off the yacht.

You never know with these series, even if she is dead, they might find a way to bring her back. Perhaps in a prequel.

Pretty sure lots of people in the audience are pissed that MW killed off a main character.

Valentina loosened up a bit by getting laid.

After Tanya fell into the ocean and drowned, was any body else reminded of this? (2:20 mark if not cued up)

R192, sure Tanya might not be dead. She just floated face down in the ocean for something like 12 hours for the hell of it.

I think Ethan and Daphne fucked; I’m not sure if Cam and Harper did.

Valentina looks like a body builder.

Jack talks like Ozzy Osbourne.

Portia needed strappier sandals, shorter skirts and to stop walking slew-footed.

[quote] You never know with these series, even if she is dead, they might find a way to bring her back. Perhaps in a prequel.

Like Mamma Mia 2?

So if eastern religion and spirituality are going to be the focus next season, I would actually much rather it be in the Himalayas (Tibert, Nepal, Bhutan, India) than in Japan.

Mike White suggested in a oprevious interview the Connie Britton character from S1 might well be back next season. It might make sense if Greg came back to make his own "karmic payback" after Tanya's death 9and the death of Quentin and two of his company) by turning to Buddhism.

One thing: I would like to see White bring in some old money because he has yet to do that on this show. (All the rich people have been nouvelles riches). But probably old money would not go to places like Maui or Sicily for holidays.

The prostitute did feel a twinge of guilt for what she did to Albie.

Cam obviously doesn’t love Daphne or the kids with that flossing scene.

[quote] Sounds like Daphne is the new Tanya and it will follow her (and Cameron?) to the Maldives.

I strongly doubt they'll go to the Maldives next season--it's in Asia, but it has nothing to do with Eastern religion or spirituality.

The part where Tanya found out the old yacht captain was gay too gave me a little of Joan Cusack in [italic]In and Out.[/italic]

Good god Albie needed a slap during the scene when he was asking for the 50k. He deserves to be stuck with Portia.

I love that the people who wins the most (Mia and Lucia) and the least (Jack) are the sex workers. I how Matteo gives Jack a nice severance package.

If you're referring to Valentina's nude scene, R196, check the facial profile; they used a body double.

One interesting thing was except for Quentin and his cohorts on the island, and Tanya, and perhaps Bert, almost everyone else got a happy ending in the short term.

It's hard to believe Cameron and Daphne can stay together for very long 9their marriage is built entirely on cheating and denial), but they were able to pretend nothing bad had happened. April and Ethan seemed happier (though it's also not clear how long that will last), and Albie and Portia found each other. Valentina has found out who she is sexually, Rocco and Isabella will be together, and Dominic will get to go back to his wife. And the prostitutes got everything they dreamed of getting.

And though Tanya died, she at least probably died very, very quickly--too fast for her to know what happened to her.

“There’s not enough people out there who care about old buildings!”

This show was very homophobic.

First of all, all the gays, they literally were the “gay mafia.”

Secondly, they were killed by Tanya.

Valentina was in the gay mafia?

[quote][R192], sure Tanya might not be dead. She just floated face down in the ocean for something like 12 hours for the hell of it.

Of course, I realize Tanya was in the water for a long time, but the BODY in the body bag was not shown. It could have been the man who jumped off the yacht. Or, someone in a small boat could have picked her up.

As if plots in movies and TV/cable series are not convoluted? Give me a break.

I think there will be a lot of backlash if Tanya is dead, if that's the case, there will be some way the character will be brought back.

If she's not dead she's doing an AMAZING imitation. And how did she sing opera underwater without moving her lips?

If Tanya were alive, wouldn’t she have reacted to Daphne getting so close? Like, hey bitch, help me?!

How can Tanya NOT be dead?

I'm glad Valentina got a decent happy ending.

I like Jennifer Coolidge, but the Tanya character ran its course. Her exit was unexpected and clever, and like life, a little messy.

Over 7 episodes Jennifer Coolidge's Tanya turned into a cartoon character, I was rooting for her death on the boat.

I wanted to slap Ethan when he was accusing Harper of lying while also insisting that she believe him.

Unconventional casting, fantastic acting and nuanced writing; I love everything about this show. A window in to a slice of life I could never afford…gorgeous settings and photography, local history, malevolent art and a little mystery thrown in.

Well that was interesting. As dumb as Tanya was, I didn't want to see her die. But I'm glad she was technically killed by her own studipity and not "these gays."

Stanford = 0 Chico State = 1

I never guessed the resolutions for any of the characters, even with all the DL predictions. Refreshingly unpredictable. And that Tanyas death was the result of bad decisions under pressure was perfect. That's what WOULD actually happen.

Speaking of Pitch Perfect, White was obviously influenced greatly by this. I know want to see Tanya’s final boat scenes scored with the Bella’s singing Toxic.

I hated the S2 theme at first, but it really grew on me.

[quote] A feint? Would he really telegraph the Tanya character would live to return for the next season?

As to Mike White saying in an interview with "Town and Country" that he wanted to bring back Jennifer Coolidge for Season 3, I got this right.

[quote] WL Season 2: Belinda’s Revenge

I have to hope that word of Tanya's demise at another White Lotus property got back to Belinda.

I think the actor who plays Greg is hot as fuck. I'd love for him to be the lead.

R158 why would Portia run into Cameron? And why would she speak to him if she did? She doesn’t know him. They never met.

Someone in one of the previous threads said White Lotus sucks compared to some Japanese show. Does anyone know what the show was?

The White Lotus is most similar to Why Women Kill, which was inexplicably cancelled.

I loved the scenery, the cinematography, and the interiors of S2, but lost interest in the characters and thought the writing was weak. For me, the ending was a letdown.

How could Greg not get away with it? Tanya wasn't drugged or killed. She wasn't kidnapped. She wasn't threatened. She had no real proof they were plotting against her. Even if the police found detailed plans to murder her, is that a punishable offence if it isn't executed?

Conspiracy to murder is a punishable offence even if it isn't carried out.

[quote]How could Greg not get away with it?

They'll have the tape, the rope and a few dead bodies with bullet holes as evidence something happened. They'll know she's an heiress. They'll realize those men don't have any money and one of the guys has mafia contacts.

Then they'll ask why she was randomly killing people on a boat.

Then they can track down the guy they left back at the house, even if Jack disappears and if he didn't hide that picture they'll find the one with Greg. I'm sure that's not the only picture either.

Those men didn't think Tanya would kill them so they likely had didn't think to cover anything up before taking her out on the boat.

What’s with all the Hollywood trope of “bury your gays” Mike White? We know he has a complex relationship with homosexuality because of how twisted and broken his father was, but do we really need him murdering gay men repeatedly on screen?

[quote] I think there will be a lot of backlash if Tanya is dead, if that's the case, there will be some way the character will be brought back.

Lol, um how?? She was face down in the water from sunset until the next day when Daphne found her. Tanya is DEAD.

It's Italian law enforcement and a mafia-involved crime, so I wouldn't exactly expect justice to be carried out.

Jack's whole employment scheme is gone now. What will he do?

Some questions/reflections- The yacht was anchored near shore, but knowing the captain got away, later there was a cutaway where the mechanized anchor had been clearly brought back up and he’d be the only one that could’ve done so. We see the next morning it’s now close enough to the beach or have drifted in that you could swim in.

-After she shot everyone, why didn’t Tanya use one of the gay’s phones to call for help? -Cam pretends nothing happened and both couples go along with it at dinner. Nope! -Daphne likely knew Cam wouldn’t get the investment, was either in on the scheme to get their money, and went after Ethan as a last resort to cinch the deal.

I am happily married 7 years, and can wholly relate to Daphne’s speech- I’m grateful and don’t need to know or my husband know absolutely everything I or he are thinking!

I don’t agree it’s “homophobia” and to say so is railing against artistic license, These were a bunch of lying, scheming murderous people that were all in on it-that just happened to be gay.

Unless the captain removed them, the rope, tape, and gun are all still on the boat and have their fingerprints as well as Tonya’s that would expose their scheme.

Two takeaways from the season overall:

1. It showed how easily people cam become paranoid. The viewers knew from the beginning that one person died. From that point onward, every petty little exchange between any characters felt like it was grounds for murder to be committed. This shows how people who have guilty consciences or overactive imaginations in real life can become totally overwhelmed with paranoia and think every little thing people say and do is a threat to them. I find that fascinating.

2. Just like last season, soooo many people complained after the first 2-3 episodes that the show is soooo boring, not worth watching, the writing is terrible, nothing happens, and that Mike White had lost his way. And all the while, the writing steadily built tension among characters to the point that any of them seemed likely to be involved in a crime of revenge. By the end, it was totally wild speculation and people lamented that it was over too soon. This is obviously White's approach to this series of stories, but I'm sure by the next season, people will lament that White has lost his magic, season two was the best, season three is boring and nothing happens, yada yada.

I'm glad Tanya died just because otherwise, this would be two seasons of the series killing off all the gays. I mean, it was anyway, but at least Tanya who so objectified the gay men was also taken out.

I wonder if White is aware that he always kills the gay characters or if it's a subconscious thing.

When I wrote my first attempt at a novel, I "wrote what I knew" as goes the advice, and the protagonist had my worldview and he died in the end. Then I heard an author say that writers always want to kill themselves in stories and they should not do that. That made me rethink a lot of my writing and made my imagination less tragic. The writing kept forecasting that Tanya's life was going to end up like a heroine of a tragic opera, and lo and behold, Mike White's gay men ended up like the side characters of a tragic opera once again.

[quote] After she shot everyone, why didn’t Tanya use one of the gay’s phones to call for help?

Tanya was exceptionally dumb. (Also self-involved...she was clearly traumatized after firing a gun and killing so many people...and she still only cared about whether her dumb husband cheated on her!)

Also, realistically speaking, everyone locks our phones. Portia using Jack's phone was unrealistic. He definitely would have taken his phone with him and even if he had left it, it would have been password protected.

The resolution to the Cameron/Daphne and Harper/Ethan storyline was the big nothing burger Iwas fearing, but the rest fits nicely and pretty satisfying overall.

R238 It's not nothing. The season was an examination of sex removed from romance and the Harper/Ethan storyline showed that Ethan was in a rut of routine, dutifully dedicating his life to work and getting up early every morning to go run, etc., and Harper being inside her self-superior box, and Cameron and Daphne shoved them out of their comfort zones into uncomfortable territory and it got their juices flowing.

Their storyline made me wonder if Eyes Wide Shut might have been a partial inspiration. In it, Tom Cruise's character's whole existence is about status and being handsome and respected as a doctor, using money to get everything he wants, etc., and then he ends up freaked out by a bizarre sex cult that is so far beyond his status or his understanding and he realizes his wife is involved with it. In the end, he asks her what they are going to do [presumably referring to the distance and lack of trust in their marriage] and she says "fuck."

I was begging for Audrey Plaza to kill Ethan after we had to sit through yet another fit of his about how he “NEVER LIED!” He is the worst kind of liar.

The actresses who played Daphne and Valentina were the most talented. When Ethan told Daphne about Cameron, a jolt of cold rage passed over her face for just an instant. Really amazing.

My favorite line of the night: “uhhh, he was kinda…fuckin’ his uncle…”

Unlike last season, the poorer service worker characters mostly ended with the upper hand here. Mia and Lucia walking off into town together - they have the one thing so many of these characters do not - someone who loves them and who they can trust, a real friend. The best things in life are free!

It was interesting that Mike White put in a lot of little callouts to other shows/books. Mad Men used the “some things in life are free” song very memorably when Bert died. (And there was a Bert on this show too.)

What did the head statues in the room represent again? Whatever it was Ethan and Harper broke free of it when the statue (and them) smashed. They’ll probably be fine.

Guess the fortune teller was a good one and did see Tanya’s demise.

[quote]What did the head statues in the room represent again?

Infidelity and lust

Really, Uncle Rico is the mastermind? Uh, not the ending I imagined.

I just saw a meme of Peppa Pig holding a gun with the title “White Lotus Finale” and I’m screaming. I lost it, dammit.

Portia had my favorite "payoff." You knew she was either going to die or end up back with Albie. She does indeed meet up with hm again, but everything surrounding it is pretty fun, biting and sadly realistic.

Did you see it at R173?

R246 What, you don’t bring it to class to share with others?

[quote] Also happy that Albie remained a nice guy. It was interesting the shot of Albie, Dom, and Bert turning to check out the pretty girl at the airport. Was that a sign that cheating is in Albie’s blood? Maybe.

Bert called it Achilles' dick, the Greek Curse. Guys "just" being wired that way = constantly horny.

Daphne taught Ethan how to no longer be a victim on that peninsula (of course, White keeps it vague what exactly happened in a season that is about war of the sexes). That's how Daphne and Cameron's marriage survives, and that's how Ethan is going to deal with Harper from now on, since they no longer trust each other to be completely honest. And man, Sharpe's ass in that sex scene. Wow fucking wow!

Until the end I thought White would manage to keep it vague whether Tanya was right or wrong about Quentin's intention, then we get to the scene with Tanya hiding in the room going through the duffle bag, and it was clear that Quentin and Niccolo were up to no good (not to mention Jack warning Portia how dangerous these guys are). Watching Tanya taking one shot after the other was intense, but I was surprised that she actually hit the guys. I thought she was just randomly shooting stuff with her eyes closed.

That sound effect of Tanya hitting the boat's railing had me howling.

I imagine Coolidge wanted a big death moment like Bartlett got in season one.

Oh no I didn’t R248, I saw it in some finale meme round up. Thank you! It’s at R173, R249.

Peppa pig meme. DL doesn’t allow image links to Twitter any more.

I only see Monica Vitti with a gun.

Tanya to Portia:

I know it's silly / Mary!, but I can't wait what the show will do with the opening credits theme of next season.

What has the world come to when you can't even trust some middle-aged gay men to take you on a trip on their yacht?

Jack was told to get Portia away for the night, which he did. He was no doubt told to prevent her from contacting Tanya, which he almost succeeded in doing.

But was he told to take Portia to the airport, rather than bringing her back?

Could Portia be suspected as a co-conspirator if they had succeeded in killing Tanya?

It would’ve been smarter for Jack to have killed Portia. She’s now a loose end. If the police talk to her she could tell them what Tanya told her and make the Greg/Quentin connection. I hope Greg gets busted. I’d hate for him to win and get Tanya’s money.

Tanya doesn’t seem like the type to have had a will, but who knows, maybe someone smarter than her had her make one.

The Tanya-Quentin and Co storyline seems lifted straight from The Serpent, a true story. Tourists should be wary of over-friendly locals.

Jack admitted that he's not smart. He's lost. He's in "a hole." And all his lifelines we know of have been severed now—his sugar daddies all are dead, and the last call to Monica Vitti's phone was made from his phone. He's going to be on the run, and he'll probably get caught. He's a Brit and certainly will be extradited to Italy.

Jack is a stupid street rat, but he had a conscience. Assault and murder, or being complicit in a murder (handing Portia over to someone at the hotel who kills her?), was a bridge too far for him. That is why he drove Portia to the airport.

R259 Definitely. I was thinking throughout the series that if I were Portia or Tanya or Albie, I would have withdrawn immediately as soon as the locals started cozying up to me.

In Hawai'i, all the locals were indigenous people who were exploited by the colonizing Americans.

In Sicily, the arrogant, ignorant Americans romanticized the Italian mafia from silly American movies and ended up being leeched by them.

Well, there is a reason why some tourist destinations are called tourist traps.

Jack was shocked and hurt when Portia called him on fucking his "uncle." I think he had the upper hand in his mind until she said that and then he was immediately disempowered, realizing that she knew what he had been doing while he thought he was playing her. He realized he was in over his head again and was relegated to victim status.

He told her that she is smarter than he is and that if she is smart she will go home and not ask questions. That told me how he got trapped in their world. He somehow was drawn in and asked too many questions and there was no way out for him. He wasn't really a willing participant. He was probably some desperate hustler like the hotel hookers with some level of street smarts and then before he knew it he was enmeshed with the mafia and had no escape.

Portia is also in a bad situation - she could get herself Amanda Knox’d easily if she turns to the police there and they are connected to the hit man’s family. But once I was back in the US, the first thing I would do is contact a lawyer and then go turn over all the information I had to the State Dept.

Clearly, Quentin had to make last minute arrangements for separating Portia from Tanya, which led to Quentin's bad judgment in putting Jack in charge of Portia. Jack was not mentally equipped to "outsmart" Portia (who went along with pretty much everything and stuck with Jack even when it was clear he was up to no good, not exactly the smartest choice, but necessary for the plot to unfold).

Jack might not get caught. All the evidence is that Tanya went on a shooting rampage, and then drowned after hitting her head when trying to make her escape. Jack and Portia are not complicit in killing Tanya. I mean, Tanya killed four people because she thought they were going to kill her?

R265 Portia knows Albie's dad is rich and she knows Albie is obsessed with "wounded birds," so she is going to exploit the resources available to her. She's not dumb. She's not just crushing on Mr. Nice Guy. The season is about the transactional nature of sex and attraction. Albie's money is going to be useful as she navigates what to do now.

R267 That's not quite right. The Italian guy's backpack is on the bed with the rope and tape. It was his gun. His prints are probably on all of it, and the police will know he was tied to the mafia. It wasn't Tanya's gun. They'll see a bunch of men whose money ran out, and who had ties to the mafia, had a rich lady on a yacht, and this rich American lady who had no history of violence randomly killed them and then died jumping off the boat. It'll hardly look like a murderous homophobic rampage.

And if they do their forensic research, they will find the ties between Greg and Quentin.

The logical thing would be that Portia gets in contact with the lawyer who manages Tanya's family estate in the US, protecting her from Greg. Unless the lawyer is female and Greg's secret lover, then Portia is fucked.

I’m gonna be that guy, but I’m disappointed in the whole killer gays Brokeback Mountain storyline.

If White kills off the gay man/men in his next season, it'll definitely confirm he's got issues he should take to therapy.

He's angry at his gay father.

“I have a bad feeling about this”

Terrible writing. I’m sure it’ll win the Emmy.

I read it as Portia saving her own ass and maybe even hooking up with Albie and his rich family. I don't see her going to the cops.

Even with a will, you can't disinherit a spouse, r258. Greg is getting paid. Tania already made that connection that the pre-nup would cover her in a divorce but not death...

Isn't there a clause that if the inheritor killed the person, then they don't get the inheritance?

Albie double crossed his father. He didn’t work things out with his mother. The whores are the only winners, maybe Portia, too. She was spared a grim death. I’ve always enjoyed Tom Holland’s performances. He was perfect here. I didn’t understand why Ethan wouldn’t fuck his wife. Jennifer Coolidge’s performance improved once they got her out of that hotel. She plays innocent stupe very well. Cameron seemed unfazed by the fight in the water. His character is a determined player. I liked the bit where he ignored his wife until he finished flossing.

Some people read the ending as Portia being stupid. I just thnk she doesn't really care about Tanya, wants to save her own skin and maybe move on with Albie and his rich family.

Let’s face it, Tanya was never going to give Tanya a glowing recommendation anyways.

[quote] Isn't there a clause that if the inheritor killed the person, then they don't get the inheritance?

Someone would have to get the ball rolling and start an investigation first tying Greg to the murder plot. Is there someone who actually cared about Tanya?

[quote] Albie double crossed his father. He didn’t work things out with his mother.

He probably did, since the mother changed her mind from the previous loud and angry phone conversation to being willing to talk with Dominic when the guys are back home.

R281 I'd assume that the cops would. A mega rich American heiress and a boat full of dead people? That would be a huge story and the media/public would want answers if nothing else.

[quote] In it, Tom Cruise's character's whole existence is about status and being handsome and respected as a doctor, using money to get everything he wants, etc., and then he ends up freaked out by a bizarre sex cult that is so far beyond his status or his understanding and he realizes his wife is involved with it. In the end, he asks her what they are going to do [presumably referring to the distance and lack of trust in their marriage] and she says "fuck."

Eyes Wide Shut is about a gentile doctor who discovers the Jewish Illuminati are responsible for molding women into moronic sex dolls.

[quote] Is there someone who actually cared about Tanya?

If Tanya had life insurance, depending on how big the policy is, someone in corporate there may care.

There may be fallout among the yacht gays because a few of them survived - the guy who was crying saying goodbye to Tanya at the manse, then the two who jumped overboard. There may be ramifications from the hit man's family or from the police. Some people at the hotel know about Portia, and Albie knows about Jack too. There were lots of people at the big rager the gays threw Tanya. Tanya's phone will show a call from Jack as her last contact. All of these are threads someone interested could pull on.

Albie’s betrayal of his mother to help his wounded bird shows he inherited the Achilles cock.

Mike White dropped the ball with the Daphne/Cameron/Harper/Ethan storyline.

Hmm, I can see Tanya’s death being covered by a true crime podcaster months later and go viral and that’s what will spur the American cops to investigate. Otherwise I’ll say the Italian police will label it ‘death by misadventure at sea’ or something like that. Due to corruption and mafia ties they don’t want to investigate properly.

#JusticeForTanya will trend and they’ll solve the crime!

[quote]months later

No, this would be a big story from the get-go. International media would be all over it. The Americans, the Brits, and the Italians.

[quote] [R281] I'd assume that the cops would.

The cops only care about closing the case as fast as possible, because tourists getting killed isn't good for local tourism. Death by misadventure, or something like that. Especially if the Nico was part of the mafia. Then everything gets swept under the rug and Tanya's death was a tragic accident of her falling off the boat and drowning.

Portia and Albie back as newlyweds on their honeymoon in S3.

[QUOTE]The cops only care about closing the case as fast as possible

Intense media attention which this story would definitely attract would make that virtually impossible.

[quote] Mike White dropped the ball with the Daphne/Cameron/Harper/Ethan storyline.

I agree somewhat. But the story was there to see, he just sort of underemphasized it. Mr. I NEVER LIE, I ALWAYS TELL THE TRUTH cheated on his wife after he lost his trust in her, after she lost her trust in him. Daphne showed him her ways of either empowering herself or corrupting herself, depending on how you see it. And that either saved Ethan and Aubrey Plaza’s marriage, depending on how you see it. What I love about Mike White’s shows is you can see it either way.

Mob-related people murdered----I think the police will try to wrap it up so it will be forgotten. Portia will go home and never be involved. If they can implicate Jack (e.g. Tanya's last call), he could be in trouble. Portia is a user--she'll spin Tanya's death for sympathy. She was a really annoying character until she confronted Jack. I hope she isn't brought back because she'll be 95% annoying again.

The Cameron/Ethan/Daphne/Harper thing was just bad writing that went nowhere---the make-up sex was entirely predictable.

Tanya could recur as a ghost. Coolidge is White's friend. If she exists as a voiceover in S3, that might be enough. It would be more tolerable than having her as a main character. This season pretty much turned me off to her---she's really annoying. The shooting scene reminded me of Shelley Winters in "A Place in the Sun"---you just wanted her to get knocked off and the accidental death finally put the audience out of its misery.

We no longer seem to have the character driven, not plot driven poster. Thank God, because it's obviously about the plot at the end. And the visiting relatives thing was a red herring---just a chance for him to write-in something he'd done with his father in Norway. There's a point where "write what you know" becomes gratuitious.

Someone upthread thought Thailand would be better than Japan for death and spiritualism----clearly you know nothing about Asia. Thailand has beaches, though and White seems to like water.

The local press will NOT sensationalize a death of a tourist when the area relies on tourism. The foreign press will not be able to make a big deal out of it when the coroner confirms that she died from falling off a boat and drowned.

The visiting relatives bit told us the DiMarco men’s Achilles cock extends to their ancestors/more distant male relatives too.

[quote]Portia needed strappier sandals, shorter skirts and to stop walking slew-footed.

Agreed. Terrible costuming for her but I guess that was the idea. She looked dumpy and squat-legged.

Tanya's body shows no sign of struggle or being manhandled (like being pushed underwater). Her death would not be considered suspicious.

R295 You forgot the boat of multiple dead people, one of whom owned a fancy palazzo. Hardly a common occurrence.

But her shooting three men before she fell will make the story more interesting. That’s what will make it a true crime sensation that people want solved.

Why did this American heiress murder three guys (two of them gay) and then fall and die? And if the yacht is as it was when the died, the cops will see the rope and duct tape and that’ll add another layer of intrigue.

I hope they don’t just sweep it away and say Tanya went nuts and murdered these guys. That’s probably what the captain and Hugo will say if they get questioned.

Can't believe Mike killed off Peppa pig.

Regarding the deaths.

Everything relies on how the local press and the local police deals with it first. Do they want to cause trouble for local tourism, do they really want to turn it into a big scandal or conspiracy? Sure, the foreign press may jump on it later, but all they will get is whatever the local press and local police will offer to them.

I mean, who would question a drug deal gone bad with a rich heiress (with drugs in her system) drowning?

A major heiress dying on a boat full of dead gay men with literal mafia ties would be huge international news, instantly. Period. And there are a million things tying Jack and Portia to it. I’m shocked Portia would get out of the country. Multiple people would have said “where’s Tanya’s assistant?” She would have been detained at the airport immediately. It’s ridiculous she didn’t go to the police in the first place. It was all way too sloppy and in public view. They never would have pulled it off in the first place.

ANYWAY, White has said Greg’s story is probably not over, so we’ll see in what capacity he potentially returns. And to whoever is railing on Coolidge: shut up. No one agrees with you. She was incredible again this season and is going to win another Emmy.

I’d like Daphne to get an Emmy nom over Harper. Harper was fine, but Daphne actress was very good pretending shit was perfect when it wasn’t and her scenes showing Harper her kids’ pictures and this last episode with Ethan were top notch.

The Emmy would go to Sabrina Impacciatore for me. She even improvised that brilliant Peppa Pig line.

Albie is wised up enough now to know he can do better than dwarfish Portia. He’s had sex with a beautiful, sexually skilled pro, he’s not gonna settle for Jack’s sloppy seconds.

If Portia is smart, she will go straight to the U.S. police when she gets home and sees the headlines about Tanya’s death. She can plausibly claim she was duped into a vacation fling which kept her away from her employer for days at a time, and that she only became suspicious that something was up when her phone went missing. The interesting question with her is her conscience — does she have one? She resented Tanya, who was right to warn her off Jack.

Also, I think about Tanya’s message to Portia: “You remind me of me.” Will Portia wind up dead? She’s a loose end for Greg since she can link him to the crime he otherwise has an ironclad alibi for . . .

[quote]I didn’t understand why Ethan wouldn’t fuck his wife.

Me neither. If there was supposed to be gay subtext, it turned out to be vague beyond belief.

R307 There was never supposed to be gay subtext. It was made clear early on that Ethan was jacking off to a female pornstar. Then Harper talks about how he's a porn addict and no longer interested in her sexually.

Just seen someone refer to Albie as 'Handsome Screech' and now I can't unsee it.

Ethan and Cameron were college roommates/rivals. Cam always took whatever girls Ethan liked or fucked them first. Harper leveled the playing field by fucking Ethan.

Harper is a very interesting character.

I saw it more as if Ethan leveled it by fucking Daphne who was Cameron's actual wife (not confirmed, but implied)

This season was enjoyable, but I thought the whole Harper/Ethan/Cameron/Daphne storyline was very unsatisfying. There was just no payoff for the intrigue behind these two couples. It's a minor point, because I always enjoy seeing Audrey Plaza, but the idea of Daphne as being this mastermind seemed like a bit of a stretch

I agree with r308 - being porn addicted and simultaneously not interested in the real thing happens, especially with somebody like Ethan who's a tech nerd. Real sex with somebody you've been with for a long time takes effort he'd clearly lost interest in expending. Jerking off when you've got the urge becomes programmatic, part of the schedule. Another person's schedule and whims complicates it, if the couple's not in sync.

[quote]White has said Greg’s story is probably not over, so we’ll see in what capacity he potentially returns.

Some plot details tied up nicely, some left kind of loose, and some not addressed at all. Like life, no? Greg:

Who was Greg talking to on the phone on the terrace (overheard by Tanya)? "I'll be there soon. I love you." I don't buy it was Quentin.

Why did Quentin leave the old pic of him and Greg out so prominently? Was it intentional? If you are planning on offing Greg's wife it seems odd he wouldn't have "cleaned up" those pics.

Season one: wasn't Greg with a bunch of other guys at the resort when he first met Tanya? Is Greg really dying of cancer?

[quote]Albie is wised up enough now to know he can do better than dwarfish Portia. He’s had sex with a beautiful, sexually skilled pro

... who manipulated him and played him for a fool. Of course, Portia also "betrayed" him when she went off with Jack. It doesn't seem he's learned anything from this experience.

Jack leaving his phone on the table when going to the bathroom was dumb. His phone not being locked was even dumber.

There's no way Tanya would kill three guys with that shooting of hers, especially through the closed door and at the angle that room was compared to the main room. Even shooting two people is a stretch. That q-tip looking gay guy would run away right away.

Lucia just scammed someone of off $50k and she would just stay in town, probably stay around the same hotel, in hopes that she doesn't run into that person again?

R315 Of the several details that just seem a little over the top.... 50,000 euros? Really? Dad is rich enough to simply give 50k to a son so the son can give it to a hooker? No dad would do that. Would Mia run the scam for that much? Unlikely.

Gifts are gifts, you can't criminalize them. But I agree that the dad just handing over 50k even if it means the son talks to his wife is not particularly realistic or maybe I just don't grasp the very rich enough.

[quote]Jack leaving his phone on the table when going to the bathroom was dumb. His phone not being locked was even dumber.

He wasn't exactly a Mensa candidate.

R319 He wasn't mentally challenged either.

[quote]There's no way Tanya would kill three guys with that shooting of hers, especially through the closed door and at the angle that room was compared to the main room. Even shooting two people is a stretch.

Yeah that's why it was funny! Sheesh. It was a punchline. Seems Tanya had a buried killer instinct and would've made an excellent assassin if she'd known that was there the whole time. But mostly it's just OF COURSE that woman would luck into killing everybody with her eyes closed -- she's great at destroying other people without even trying. But she still couldn't save herself because she's also a dipshit. It was funny and sad, ridiculous and perfectly keeping in line with everything we've come to know about tanya this entire time.

Why do Dataloungers always want to pick this show apart? You all want to prove you're smarter than Mike White.

I would agree R321, though her death felt a bit mean spirited to me.

R322 Or said another way, why do you want to pic Dataloungers apart? You want to prove you're smarter than all of them?

R209 you see. You get mad that we think you’re stupid and have no business watching this show because despite it being subtle but obvious in its writing, you don’t understand it.

You need everything explained to you or shown to you. Your brain seems incapable of breaking anything down like ours. Maybe you should go watch Sesame Street.

^It's called "buzz" Mike White is probably delighted that people are engaged enough in the show to comment, talk about it, even criticize it. If everyone just ignored it, even if it was praised by the critics, that's not good.

{quote] The season is about the transactional nature of sex and attraction.

Yes! Sorry I forgot this poster's number.

As far as making all the gays murderous criminals, I'd argue that Jack the hustler is the most sympathetic character of the season because he was the only one who did the right thing without a payoff. Saving Portia even put himself at risk.

Also, someone was asking about the head statues. They symbolized lust and betrayal but, most directly, jealousy and revenge. The legend was about a local girl decapitating the foreigner who seduced her while lying about having a family.

Anyone think it odd that the last episode leaned so heavily on Purcell instead of Italian opera?

I know Portia gets a lot of shit for her wardrobe, but I work near a university and see a lot of younger “cool” girls dressing themselves in very the same (garish) way.

It’s part of the early/mid-2000s revival. Dressing like Lizzie McGuire seems to be replacing the “normcore” wave — which has had hipsters dressed like Jerry Seinfeld for the last decade or so.

R328 Maybe because Dido's Lament is a foreshadowing of events?

Thy hand, Belinda, darkness shades me, On thy bosom let me rest, More I would, but Death invades me; Death is now a welcome guest.

Aria When I am laid, am laid in earth, May my wrongs create No trouble, no trouble in thy breast; Remember me, remember me, but ah! forget my fate. Remember me, but ah! forget my fate.

But women in Baroque and Bel Canto opera are always welcoming death. Dido and Aneas is a favorite of mine, so I was glad to hear two selections from it.

But it is so English that it was weird to hear it when everything else has been so studiously italian.

Here is Joyce DiDonato singing When I am Laid In Earth...Dido's Lament, Purcell...she is amazing. Just saw her at the Met in The Hours. She was Virgina Woolf and the moment she enters she is revelatory...

DiDonato is too heavy for this music. You need transparency and spontaneity.

Lorraine Hunt and Janet Baker are better for the role.

R331. Good point. I shouldn't have said death but rather revenge and volatility, but I what I know about baroque is not much.

[quote] Dressing like Lizzie McGuire seems to be replacing the “normcore” wave — which has had hipsters dressed like Jerry Seinfeld for the last decade or so.

What?

Anyone else think Dom's wife was in the middle of fucking around with someone when Dom calls her, and that's why she tells him to call back later?

[quote] Do we want to see Portia again?

NEVER!

[R336] Absolutely. That is why the 50k have been a total wash. I was expecting Greg to greet Portia at the airport...

She really was R187. Also, the way she was lit made her seem like the most gorgeous woman alive. Great scene. For her Emmy reel no doubt.

Matteo the guy they left behind was probably waiting back at the hotel in Sicily to kill Portia when Jack brought her back.

Daphne will return in S3 with a mixed asian baby in tow.

It's definitely to White's extreme credit as a writer that everyone here is talking about the fates of all the characters as if they are real human beings whose lives will continue after the finale but *not* complaining about loose ends being left untied.

These characters came alive.

I don't think that Ethan and Harper's storyline went nowhere, either. Their whole marriage almost fell apart and the marital/sexual corruption of their rivals, who neither of them liked or appreciated at all at the beginning, ended up being their saving grace in a way. Ethan is addicted to porn and he was caught in boring routine and became totally complacent. Harper felt unattractive and like he was inevitably going to abandon her as he becomes richer. Their marriage now has a chance not only of not failing but of being fulfilling and exciting because they've learned the value of creating tension where none exists. It's very insightful.

Did Portia shoplift the sunglasses?

Season 3 hasn't started yet, and Mike White has us already speculating and anticipating what is going to happen next with some of the characters like Greg and maybe Portia while he's going to introduce to a whole new group of travelers. Very clever on his part.

And Greg really seemed like a minor character with little airtime in both season 1 and 2, but he actually is the biggest player of them all with a lot of mystery surrounding him. Like they say, it's the quiet ones that you have to look out for.

I really sort of love this comment from gaymermaid on Vulture:

The most terrible people for ME on this show were Tanya, Cam and to a lesser degree Ethan. But my feeling that they are terrible is a reflection of personal biases against wealthy stupid people, mercenary finance bros, and men in long term relationships who won't talk out their feelings before they explode. And again, with all of them, I can find moments of empathy if I remain open to them.

You are blaming Albie's actions on Lucia, as though he has no free will. He has free will. Dom has free will. Dom chose to give her that money, knowing it would be the most effective way to teach his son the lesson he needed to learn, and hearing the truth of what Albie said: "It's nothing to you." In the grand scheme for him, teaching his son that lesson and earning his wife's forgiveness was worth $50,000. To blame Lucia for the choices made by Albie and Dom is to grant her power she doesn't have and to infantilize the men.

Mia didn't think she was giving the piano player a drug that might kill him. She thought she was giving him Viagra. This was an honest error. Were her actions after his hospitalization mercenary? Yes. Was he actually going to help her music career, or was he just saying whatever it took to get her into bed? We don't know. I thought the storyline was satisfying, because in my view he had no intention of helping her, but because of a chain of events caused by his choice to sleep with her, he did wind up helping her. Again, he made choices. The piano player is not a victim. Neither is Mia. Again, human beings.

I also thought that Mia's behavior with Valentina was incredibly kind. She gave her a safe first sexual experience with a woman to demonstrate her gratitude for the time Valentina gave her at the piano. She communicated clearly that there was no possibility for long term romantic connection, but that she could guide Valentina into a world where she could find real personal happiness. It was a beautiful illustration of queer sexuality and community. I found it affirming and lovely to watch. A person capable of such kindness is not terrible. She's complex.

Is there any interest in discussing Enlightened? I will start a thread if anyone wants to dissect the misadventures of Amy Jellicoe...

r336 No. As shown before she has no problem ignoring his calls when she doesn't want to talk to him, plus she told him to call her when he gets back. Her attitude towards him has obviously changed.

I don't think Dominic would have been surprised to hear Lucia conned Albie, but I don;t think he was by any means certain she she would. I think they were having a nice "Gift of the Magi" moment where the father and son did something nice for one another without knowing the other would necessarily reciprocate. Dominic is rich so as Albie pointed out in the end he would not feel the loss of the money that badly.

IRL, rich people do not give away $50,000 to a stranger. Never.

R275 she won’t go to the cops because Jack told her to just go home and forget about it all. He made a point in telling her that those people are very powerful with a lot of connections.

Also, the two couples storyline was brilliantly written. Mike White dropped no ball there.

That was the best part of the season, to me. I loved it.

A scene that really got to me was when Ethan was looking at Harper, who was wearing sunglasses, and he saw that single teardrop roll down her cheek before she quickly wiped it away. I think it was at that moment when Ethan realized just how much Harper loved him.

R340 No, Jack was supposed to kill her. Why would they kill her at the hotel?

Portia getting on a plane just a few hours after her boss was found dead wouldn't be suspicious to police ar all.

^ as someone said, she probably wouldn't even get on that plane, they would stop her and the police would come and pick her up.

R354 she didn’t know until Albie mentioned it.

There was very little paper trail between Portia and Tanya. Tanya did not allow Portia around at the beginning of the trip because of Greg. Portia was elsewhere. Then Portia was around Tanya but no one besides Albie and his family knew that, but they didn’t know who the boss was.

Tanya’s phone in at the bottom of the sea. It’s gone.

Tanya's phone may be at the bottom of the sea, but her cellular provider will have call and text logs.

R356 That wasn't my point. My point is that Tanya came to Sicily with Portia, who escaped the crime scene, left her dead boss behind and jumped on the first flight back.

She didn’t know Tanya was dead until boarding.

R352 Do we think Ethan told her he had sex with Daphne and that's why she was crying?

So were Greg and Quentin lovers or not? Greg obviously had no problem fucking a woman, but on that photo they did seem more than just friends.

R361 No. That would make no sense.

R363 exactly. That person really is stupid. It’s so sad.

[quote]I don't think Dominic would have been surprised to hear Lucia conned Albie, but I don;t think he was by any means certain she she would.

I think Dominic has had enough experience with hookers to know that the chances of Lucia being honest with Albie were slim to none.

The Season 2 finale drew 4.1M total viewers across HBO Max and linear telecasts, which is more than double that of the 1.9M people who tuned in for the Season 1 finale. It’s also a staggering increase from the debut audience for the Season 2 premiere, which was 1.5M.

This season, The White Lotus has managed to grow its audience every week over the past seven weeks.

In delayed viewing, Season 2 episodes are now averaging about 10.1M viewers across platforms, which is about 50% ahead of where Season 1 episodes were tracking at this point in time.

If Tanya had no family, I doubt police in Sicily would mount much of an investigation. The captain would tell then that the dead “fat lady” killed the passengers. Greg would have to get a copy of Tanya’s death certificate but as the spouse that would be reasonable. He also has an alibi because he wasn’t there (as far as we know).

It depends on when exactly everything is happening, and how efficient the local cops are, or want to be in some cases r355. I think everything is happening pretty close together, the body being discovered, the body being identified, the initial call for the cops, the initial investigation of her status at the hotel and the very early questioning of hotel employees, followed by any guests who may have encountered her. It might actually take awhile before anybody says, oh yeah, she had this assistant with her, at least sometimes. Also, technically Portia is still at the hotel, as far as people know, having not checked out at all, I believe. There might well be a delay in trying to track her down before figuring out, oh yeah, she is probably at the airport waiting for her plane, even if everyone really, truly wants to solve this case, which I'm not sure about. Which reminds me, there's also a huge distraction of some wealthy guys shot on a yacht and the dead mafia guy also with them.

Anyway, I'm not sure everybody is just hopping to it and stopping all possible suspects of leaving right away.

sorry, "from leaving" not "of leaving." I hate when we all misuse prepositions on this site, and I just did it.

What is the name of guy with funny voice? Giuseppe? He was funny. Pretending he didn't hear Valentina when she was calling him, hitting on that young girl the entire time, with his cookie monster voice

Knowing Italians they would not spend much time on this case unless someone was bugging them. The murderer is known and if they were dead mafia, they would have a nice dinner and forget about it.

R370, Salvatore, the prototypical older Italian male lech

How was the mafia guy supposed to kill her? Shoot her? Tie her up and drown her? All of those things would obviously be suspicious and traced back to her husband who inherits the money. Wouldn't an accidental death be the best way to get rid of her? Or overdose on drugs? They could have spiked the coke. And killing her employee on the same day, in a different place on the island? It just didn't look like those guys thought it through very well. It all seemed very amateurish.

Lotta drama at the Beach Desk. A lot of seething resentment from those who've been exiled there that week. It could be a show all its own.

In the absence of any DNA the Italian Police arrest Amanda Knox.

A twist! r375

Is it possible they weren't going to do anything to Tanya? Remember, the gigolo always carried that bag with him, as he was in the mafia. Perhaps Tanya's paranoia took over and she shot everyone for nothing.

That damn well better not be true r377

If people would just finance a few palazzo restorations, this whole thing could've been avoided.

For S3, they could have a new hit man who would take out Greg and recover the money. There was one survivor who would tell the mob boss what happened.

R379 Hugo was offended when she called him what's his face.

R361, I don’t think Ethan told Harper. Instead I think she became so deeply sad realizing how much she loved him and yet their relationship had fallen apart.

“The question of whether Harper and Cameron did more than the kiss, I think probably that’s just all that happened. At the same time, there’s some time that isn’t really accounted for and I think that’s why it’s eating at Ethan,” White said. “Did Ethan and Daphne have some kind of a dalliance on the island or whatever happened? That allows [Ethan] to let go of the jealousy that has been brewing with him. It kind of brings back that first kind of sexual charge that happens in the beginning of relationships and sometimes fades away over time.”

We don’t know for a fact that Nicollo was actually in the mafia. Just because Quentin said it, doesn’t necessarily mean it was true. Quentin was probably going to shake Tanya down for money. Having her think his friend was in the mafia, it would have made her even more nervous and willing to hand over money to Quentin. .

[quote] Is it possible they weren't going to do anything to Tanya? Remember, the gigolo always carried that bag with him, as he was in the mafia. Perhaps Tanya's paranoia took over and she shot everyone for nothing.

No. When she was trying to find the gun in Niccolo's bad, she also found cord and duct tape. And Mike White's comments also make clear there was indeed a conspiracy against her,

Idk, Quentin, Niccollo, Hugo, and the other guy were awfully quick to follow Tanya when she went to the restroom on the yacht. She went into the bedroom and they were right there knocking on the door repeatedly asking if she was alright. I think they saw she took Niccollo’s bag and she’d see all the stuff inside and freak. They were going to kill her.

Ethan was a coward who avoided conflict by retreating into his shell and letting Hunter be in charge. Daphne showed him a way to change the power dynamic in his relationship with Hunter. Notice that he initiates the sex and is on top of Hunter in the finale. He uses sex to assert his dominance in a relationship where Hunter is in charge.

I hope Harper and Ethan don’t ever vacation with Cameron and Daphne again. Cameron is such a douche. Ethan doesn’t need that shit.

Well Ethan might not, but Harper's seen that sweet, sweet giant peen.

Maldives, here she comes!

I am super impressed how White delivers by giving us dramatic main characters' deaths instead of doing some cop-out where it's only side characters who die.

I couldn't believe that he'd go there and kill Tanya.

I would have preferred the Tanya storyline as one giant misunderstanding and she gets away with killing a bunch of innocent people.

The stuff in the bag indicated they were planning to murder her (and deep six the body) in which case they would need to murder Portia also

Why couldn’t they just get her drunk and coked out and shove her overboard and stage an accidental drowning. Then they would only need to Portia away from the boat until after the “accident “?

I agree r391. And then she finds spiritual healing in the ancient cultures of Asia, because no matter how many people she killed, She's The Victim Here. The eternal frau.

To keep

I couldn't have been the only one disappointed Portia didn't wake up next to Jack's bare man ass -- thought we'd get to see that London Broil one last time.

[quote] Ethan was a coward who avoided conflict by retreating into his shell and letting Hunter be in charge. Daphne showed him a way to change the power dynamic in his relationship with Hunter. Notice that he initiates the sex and is on top of Hunter in the finale. He uses sex to assert his dominance in a relationship where Hunter is in charge.

Harper would have KILLED Ethan if she knew he was also fucking someone named Hunter!

Fuck, r396, you're right. Had a complete brain fart regarding the name of the character played by Aubrey Plaza.

It's OK, R397, I always mix her up with Audrey Pizza!

White Lotus isn’t a smart show, R107, but people who think they are smart, but actually are not, think it is.

What is a "smart show" to you, R399? Titles, please.

Agree r390. Tanya was the one character I was sure wouldn’t be killed. I figured she’d be around for season 3. I love that White actually did it.

I bet she’ll show up in season three in some way- a voicemail to Greg, a flashback, a recorded message, idk. But one small cameo is enough, I’m ready for some new characters.

[quote] R363 exactly. That person really is stupid. It’s so sad.

SAD!

My oh my, did we all get it wrong..!

Mike White was purposely playing with the audience by talking about bringing Coolidge to season 3. Had me thinking there was no way Tanya was dying.

The scene of Cameron's face when the kids want to talk to him definitely implied he knows they aren't his.

And I am happy we did get the answer of where they went to university, Mike White knew we would want to know.

Very different season than Season 1, can't believe this show gave us a Coolidge going on a shooting spree. He really upped the drama.

Where can I find a hotel room that is full of decorations and knick knacks like The White Lotus?

R405, the Madonna Inn for sure.

Michelle Goldberg complains in the NYTimes the show did not punish toxic masculinity, as if the point of the show was to endorse her vision of the way the world ought to be.

I’m surprised they didn’t eviscerate the show for not having dignified black characters.

I swear I thought F. Murray Abraham died last year.

Same here R409.

So Aubrey Plaza, Jennifer Coolidge and F Murray Abraham got nominated for Golden Globes. Surprised that Murray got recognized.

Meghann Fahy deserved a nomination. She was so interesting to watch. Plaza has two facial expressions, neither of which involve her eyes.

R404 All these little threads/subplots in the script... yes, he was in no mood to come and say hello to the kids (he was flossing fer chissakes!!), and you may conclude that he knows the kids aren't his... but also remember when Cameron and Daphne were talking about the birth (of the second kid?) and how they had to do an emergency C-section (somehow the C-section scar disappeared on Daphne's hot and perfect body, eh?) and Cameron was still shaken with emotion on how intense the experience was... guess he'd finishing flossing before he went into delivery room.

R407 Seriously. Anybody who resorts to banal, stupid, lazy catchphrases like "toxic masculinity" has already lost the argument.

[quote]Michelle Goldberg complains in the NYTimes the show did not punish toxic masculinity,

Albie got played by his "wounded bird." His father lost $50,000 & while he and the wife will talk again they're still not back together. Albie's grandfather had a moment where he realized that this is it. He'll never be with a woman like he used to be able to and no one will love him like that again. Cameron has money issues, maybe a kid or two that isn't his and a wife that will play games with him when she pleases. She's not a victim. Ethan became the thing he hated.

[quote]Mike White was purposely playing with the audience by talking about bringing Coolidge to season 3. Had me thinking there was no way Tanya was dying.

Bring her back as Tanya's long lost twin sister, Anya who doesn't think she looks like that dead heiress at all.

Well, if it makes Michelle Goldberg feel any better, toxic femininity was very well rewarded.

R332, I ready your user-name as Jack's Rump.

^ only reason he was cast

I love Michelle Goldberg’s politics, but she doesn’t get “White Lotus” at all if she thinks the point of the series is to right the wrongs of the world.

White is more cynical than that — he knows there are such things as kindness and grace but he also knows good people don’t get their just rewards while douchebags continue to flourish.

White is pitiless about peoples’ delusions and vanities but humane about them too. I’m impressed by the complex layering of characters, motives and relationships he managed to bring alive here. This is good filmmaking.

All the characters were white & cis. The gays were stereotyped, as were the Italians. No one offended by that?

[quote] All the characters were white

Aubrey Plaza is Hispanic.

Will Sharpe is of Asian descent.

It offends me their non-white ethnicities are invisible to you.

Do better, r420.

No, I wasn’t offended R420, and neither were most other people.

I wasn't offended at all.

Offended by the lack of trans people?? Which forum do you think you're on???

(HINT: It's not Datalounge.)

He cast Will Sharpe and showed Japanese men are hot too.

Next year, it's the Maldives!

We're meant to believe that Portia has Tanya's cellphone number memorized? That's as equally unlikely as Jack's phone being unlocked. Had he a record of her number already on his phone through other means, would raise even more questions.

R427 that’s where Daphne suggested they holiday next! I’d love to see her again. I’ve had sufficient of Tanya, that was a fitting end. No need for “ghosts” or a prequel.

Would it be premature to compare Meghann Fahy favorably to a youngish Michelle Pfeiffer? She does have a little of that white gold pristine quality. And she can fucking act.

We know Adam di Marco was sleeping around on set, so it's criminal if he didn't tap the ass on Leo Woodall. I'd give a lot to stick my tongue in his ass.

[quote] [R405], the Madonna Inn for sure.

Please, please no White Lotus, or other trendy show set in SLO. It'll ruin the place.

Regarding Greg's inheritance - it varies from state to state, but in CA the remaining spouse is entitled to half of all community property unless s/he relinquishes his/her inheritance rights in a pre- or post-nuptial agreement. However, the community property would only cover assets acquired after the marriage; that would not have included Tanya's inheritance.

I'd be happy to discuss Enlightened. I just binged it after I read that Mike White wrote, directed and acted in it. Seeing him act, you get some insight as to what he is like.

$50K, that's an 830% mark-up over Lucia's standard rate for 3 nights. Easy to see why she says she likes Albie.

[quote]Lol, um how?? She was face down in the water from sunset until the next day when Daphne found her. Tanya is DEAD.

A prequel? Why not? It's been done many times before. Some writers and producers will find any way to keep rabid fans happy and make more money. Many TV shows and cable series have outlived their expiration dates.

A prequel might also reveal if Greg was gay or bisexual and answer other unresolved plot lines. The series can then switch over to the present day with Greg getting arrested.

Tanya seemed to marry that grifter Greg quickly. Was it at least year or longer before they got married? Damn, Tanya was such a bloody moron. She must have had the word "Mark" tattooed on her forehead.

I'm okay with no more Greg. Or Portia.

Given my dislike of the ending of the show, I had to skim DL to see if it is shared. It doesn't seem to be.

So please clarify this for me. A "genius" and gay director/screenwriter ends a season devoted to "sex" with this:

1. A cabal of rich gays decide to kill a woman for her money so that they can continue to restore their palaces. "We're stewards, after all, of things" (since we can't have children): the old "gay collector" trope. 2. The woman they kill is the epitome of a fag hag (well played of course): the "fag-hag" trope 3. One of the collectors is being fucked by his "nephew" : the "nephew" trope 4. The "nephew" gives his girl the only bit of honesty in the entire show (get on a plane, these people are killers): the young straight with the heart of gold trope. 5. His "uncle" has been devoted to an apparently straight cowboy for his entire life (the only man I could ever love is a straight man trope) 6. The same uncle gives the "only thing I care about is beauty" speech, even though he is a sociopath: right out of Hollinghurst 7. The straights in this film, after their frisson of infidelity, return to their relationships sexually refreshed (the "it all works out for straights Hollywood ending) Is there ANYTHING I MISSED HERE? oh, yes, 8. The "can't you see it is all ironic" as the "irony as an excuse for wild homophobia" trope.

Bitches, this is one of the most unpleasant television shows I have watched and you should be pissing on Mike White now. Dear god in heaven.

Your misreading of everything is my validation.

It's actually 50,000 euros, which is about $52,500.

I hope Greg doesn't return for season 3. The actor is not very charismatic or interesting. Someone could make a casual reference to the incident so we know what happened to him and Tanya's money.

Even Mike White called himself "overpraised." If he wasn't a fan of the peen, the homophobia and other weird things would receive far more criticism.

[quote] A prequel? Why not? It's been done many times before. Some writers and producers will find any way to keep rabid fans happy and make more money. Many TV shows and cable series have outlived their expiration dates. A prequel might also reveal if Greg was gay or bisexual and answer other unresolved plot lines. The series can then switch over to the present day with Greg getting arrested.

Why not...it's not The Tanya Show. Jennifer and Mike are friends and he wrote the career-sidekick actress a role that won both of them Emmy recognition, so they carried her character over from season one to season two even though the design is an anthology series with new characters in new settings every season. He killed Tanya almost certainly in part to justify to himself why he allowed himself to replicate her presence in a different location. Everyone on these trips has bad experiences. It doesn't make sense that they would move from one resort location to another and keep encountering the same people all across the globe.

Tanya had her story, from ashes to ashes. It's over. Moving on. The show isn't about Greg's fate, either. It's not about his travels from hotel in Hawaii to hotel in Italy to hotel in east Asia. The season is over and the rest of the series is not meant to go into the legal proceedings and insurance settlements that will follow. Those characters' lives will continue on offscreen and we'll get new characters next time.

R377, no, the mafia guy was going to kill her on the boat, he had pulled the bag out and was ready to leave with it, and when she asks someone else to go on the boat with her she was denied. You can hear in his voice his irritation when she delays by drinking more wine.

Why does everyone keep saying that he's a mafia guy? He may just be a regular assassin for hire. There's nothing to say that he's part of a criminal *organization*.

That is pretty fucked up for a killer to have sex with his victim the night before. Or is that supposed to be some "final meal" generosity?

Having to eat Tanya's cooch is what drove the gigolo to become homicidal.

I'd think the best way to do it would be to have her drown 'accidentally' but what was the rope for? And they should have removed all links to Greg like that photo.

R444 The characters in the show mentioned several times that he was involved with the mafia.

The show was set in Sicily.

The man was hired by a gaggle of gay men to give tons of cocaine to and to have sex with a heavy older woman, and he had a backpack that contained a gun, duct tape and rope, and the plan was to wait until dark and then put him on a small boat with her.

The whole setup that he was a hitman with connections to drugs who slept with her to violate her prenup could not have been more explicit and clearly depicted, and yet people are arguing that this most likely was not the case.

The show makes a lot of implications, but some aspects of the show are just clearly laid out. This was clearly laid out. There's no reason to speculate wildly.

[quote]The characters in the show mentioned several times that he was involved with the mafia.

I don't remember this.

[quote] That is pretty fucked up for a killer to have sex with his victim the night before. Or is that supposed to be some "final meal" generosity?

My guess is that it locked in the argument that she violated her prenup. Not only is she dead, but if anyone challenges the inheritance, the gays could testify that she did a ton of cocaine and slept with some Italian dude the day before she died. So it shows not only that she died, but that she lived recklessly and she cheated on her husband.

But yeah, the tape and rope do beg questions about the gay guys' and Greg's plan. If Tanya were found with her mouth taped and her body hogtied, then that would definitely undo the 'lived recklessly and cheated on her husband' story and change it to 'was murdered by someone experienced in murder,' likely pointing fingers at the mafia.

Maybe the idea was to redirect the blame away from the gays and to the mafia so that the case would be closed and not investigated—like, instead of the policia harassing the gay men whose custody she was last in, they'd learn that she did drugs with and fucked a mafioso and find her murdered and just write her off as some dumb rich lady drawn into bad company. My assumption/prejudice is that in Italy, the cops accept that the mafia run a lot of shit and they just look the other way when someone is bumped off.

I mean, that requires *a lot* of projecting, but White's story does seem to send our minds five steps ahead of where every storyline goes.

R439 I'm sorry you don't remember it, but it was right there in the dialogue. The gay guys told Tanya multiple times that he was involved with the mafia.

Tanya's body would've had to look like she had died of natural causes (like, accidental drowning) in order to not cause suspicion and not prevent Greg from inheriting. That is why the gear in Nico's duffle bag look so perplexing to me. Any coroner would've noticed if Tanya's body was bound and gagged before her death.

The easiest solution would've been to drug Tanya (the guests seen her high out of her mind at the party the night before) and drop her in the bay, for her to be discovered that she drowned while drugs were in her system. Dropping her in the ocean would've made it impossible for Greg to get his money quick if Tanya's body isn't found.

R451 I downloaded the subtitle for the last episode and did a search for 'mafia'. The ONLY mafia reference is Tanya telling Portia on the phone that he's in the mafia. So it's just an American assuming that he's the mafia just like you guys.

r453, you do realize the character is talked about in the previous episode, right?

R454 Downloaded the subtitle for ep 6 too then. Again the only mafia reference is Tanya assuming that he's in the mafia. Quentin clearly wanted her to think that he was but did not confirm it. So there's no confirmation that he is working as part of a mafia org.

It makes me think that maybe there was an extortion plot as opposed to murder? If Tanya believes that he's in the mafia and is tied up, kidnapped, she may have gone along with giving up a bunch of money.

Quentin himself claims that Nico is a drug dealer associated with the Mafia. It didn't ring any alarm bells for Tanya that these gay men socialize so casually with drug dealing Mafioso, apparently.

But then she also believed Quentin when he confirmed the woman in the opera house is the Queen of Spain.

Ups, sorry, Queen of Sicily.

R457 Here's the exact conversation. Quentin does not confirm it but why is he trying to make Tanya know/think that Niccolo is in the mafia as opposed to just a fun gigolo?

00:36:38,070 --> 00:36:41,824 Well, what does he do for a living?

00:36:41,908 --> 00:36:43,659 Oh, this and that.

00:36:43,743 --> 00:36:46,579 Niccolò may or may not have ties

00:36:46,662 --> 00:36:50,416 to a very influential local family.

00:36:50,499 --> 00:36:51,918 Oh, he joined the mafia?

00:36:52,001 --> 00:36:53,711 Did I say that? I didn't say that.

00:36:53,794 --> 00:36:56,797 We don't use that word in Palermo.

Quentin is clearly manipulating Tanya, making her assume and believe things.

I think Quentin was trying to extort money from Tanya by making her believe that she's been kidnapped (hence the rope and duct tape), but Tanya got it in her head that she's getting murdered by an associate of Greg for the inheritance and panicked.

So is it even possible that the photo *wasn't* Greg? That would be hilarious and tragic. I guess it didn't make sense that photo was up there. As usual lots of questions - so fun.

The White Lotus got a Golden Globe nomination for Best Limited Television Series or Motion Picture Made for Television.

Aubrey Plaza and Jennifer Coolidge were both nominated for a Golden Globe for Best Performance by an Actress in a Supporting Role for White Lotus.

F. Murray Abraham was nominated in the male category.

S1 had better dialogue and characters, but S1 had a more entertaining plot and finale.

The main message I got out of S1 and S2 is that rich people should not allow poor people to get too close to them because sooner or later they will prey on them.

S1 had better characters and dialogue, but S2 had a more entertaining plot and finale.

What I really missed in S2 was any interaction at all between the various guests.

I really hope season 3 is different and a gay man doesn’t die again.

Mike White talks about ep7

Armond, Olivia and Shane's mother were the stand-out characters of S1 for me and the musical score was fantastic. S2 had the most wonderful cinematography, scenery and interiors (!!!!!), but the characters were largely forgettable, though Jack and Quentin were quite good, Dom and Bert also. I thought Ethan and Harper were repellent.

Tanya’s death and gays cavorting on a yacht strikes a chord with me

Shall we start speculating how and why the uppity gay men will die in the Asian season?

[quote]The main message I got out of S1 and S2 is that rich people should not allow poor people to get too close to them because sooner or later they will prey on them.

Who were the 'poor people', the two female whores? As if anyone would be shocked that whores would prey on the naive son of a very rich man?!

Portia? Wasn't she getting paid to be an assistant? How did she prey on the nutty Tanya?

The grifting gay men who wanted Tanya's money? How did she know they were in hock up to their ears and only wanted to get close to her to rip her off?

I think it's funny that White says "Fuck you" to the "Bury your gays" trope, mostly because it's clearly irritating the most humorless cunts of all on here

R472

The gay man will do something bad to a straight and will be killed in self-defense. That has been the theme so far.

Sometimes it pays to be old and hard of hearing…

S1 - yes, Armond (charging Shane's mother for a more expensive room than he actually got), possibly Belinda (giving Tanya more attention than she would have otherwise, in the hope of her funding her business), Paula, and Kai; S2 - yes, Lucia the local girl, the cash-poor gay expats, and possibly Greg.

This is not to say that the rich do not exploit or prey on the poor.

R465

[quote] A prequel? Why not? It's been done many times before. Some writers and producers will find any way to keep rabid fans happy and make more money. Many TV shows and cable series have outlived their expiration dates.

This is prestige TV, not a Marvel movie. We’re not going to get Tanya’s origins ffs. Some of you people are so fucking weird.

[quote]Bring her back as Tanya's long lost twin sister, Anya who doesn't think she looks like that dead heiress at all.

She could be like the country twins in [italic]Big Business,[/italic] Tuesday panties and all!

I love the ambiguity of this show and how Mike White doesn’t tell the viewer what to think - like whether Daphne and Cameron’s marriage is brilliant or repellant.

Mike White is difficult to look at. Like one of those geckos with translucent skin.

I’m going to watch Bros again for the positive gay representation, not this shit. This is why I hate Ryan Murphy as well.

In what way is a bunch of murderous flaming euros a positive representation?? Again, some of you people are so fucking weird.

Oh sorry R482, I read the comment in the exact opposite way.

R453, the "nephew" indicates to Portia that Quentin was involved with the mafia when he drops her at the airport.

Most references to the mafia are not going to use the actual word.

R474: "I think it's funny that White says "Fuck you" to the "Bury your gays" trope, mostly because it's clearly irritating the most humorless cunts of all on here"

Consider the possibility that those of us who found the final episode troubling are not "humorless cunts" but rather disgusted that Mike White continues to trot out all of the stereotypes of gay men -- cabals, restoration, "uncles" and "nephews" and generally sociopaths.

And then kills them.

Yeah, the ending wasn’t good. Besides Tanya’s death it was just like season 1 - the weapon from a previous episode suddenly becomes relevant as the straight uses it for self-defense against the invasive/predatory gays.

[quote] I really hope season 3 is different and a gay man doesn’t die again.

It will be different. Probably an asian lezzie will bite the dust.

Somebody should get him in touch with Bai Ling.

When you look at Mike White, even though he isn't obese or disfigured, you can see that he wouldn't exactly be the belle of the ball at any gay get-together. I think that revenge drives a lot of his writing about gay characters, making them disgusting or villainous.

Let’s get down to brass tacks: R430, exactly how do you know Adam DiMarco was sleeping around on the set of “White Lotus”?

He’s very conflicted about his sexuality, he doesn’t call himself gay, he calls himself gay-ish or bi in interviews and he’s very uncomfortable about it. He talks extensively and brokenly about his miserable closeted father and that it had a huge impact on him as his father tried conversion therapy for decades and tried to stay married to his equally miserable mother. The whole family knew about it and went through it with the father. I can’t imagine that, it must have been horrific, especially as a budding gay child.

He’s a good writer, is self reflective (a VERY rare quality in Hollywood) and is a smart guy. I’m sure he’s examined his attitude toward gays, but he needs to examine it further because what he’s showing on screen concerning gays is cringeworthy and cliché, to be sure.

Okay, R492 is talking about Mike White, which is interesting, though as a cis gay man I found nothing offensive in his presentation of gay men here in either entry of “White Lotus.” We are far enough along as a culture (Republican politics not withstanding) that ‘gayness’ can be depicted all sorts of ways. White may be personally conflicted, but the way he shot DiMarco, Woodall, James and Sharpe is with a gay eye, someone who clearly sees the erotic in men.

By perusing the Interweb, I can see there was a lot of carousing on the set, Meghann Fahy and Leo Woodall had a very open affair, and Haley Lu Richardson and Adam DiMarco hung out together so much it was assumed they too were having a fling (if true, this disappoints me. He could do WAY better even if he’s straight). Michael Imperioli and his wife were deemed “eccentric,” whatever that means.

I think a lot of you don’t understand the concept of tragedy, that not every story should sublimate the gay lifestyle, and that it’s in this day and age- it’s actually liberating from traditional and expected gay genre to make gay men the villains and also kill off the protagonist rather than let her live. If all the men were straight and Black, there would be an absolute uproar by SJW’s.

But then she never would’ve gotten on the boat in the first place. The gays were a plot device.

We know all that R494. That doesn’t make it any less of a problem that gay men have been portrayed as worth killing twice in two seasons by a gay writer and the serious lack of representation across the years compounds this issue.

I can enjoy the show overall and still raise an eyebrow and be critical of how gay men are portrayed by a supposedly “queer” writer and director. It’s verging on self hating, and it’s a conversation that should be had.

I don't care that they gay characters were "villains". I do care that the plot was overly complicated. If all they wanted to do was kill Tanya they could have easily done so already. It being a TV show dictates they wanted to wait til right at the end. But ultimately the resolution was fun to watch, which is what matters. Even if you can't think about it too much.

[quote] the "nephew" indicates to Portia that Quentin was involved with the mafia when he drops her at the airport. Most references to the mafia are not going to use the actual word.

Oh please, Jack is a chav from Essex who says that Portia is smarter than him, so what the hell would he know about the mafia in Italy?

R475 Maybe the caption people just made a mistake? They often do.

R492 Maybe he's just, you know, bi?

R497, did you understand the story at all?

R500 I am European so I know that not every criminal in Italy is 'mafia', unlike you Americans who have stereotypes of Italy. And it's clear that Quentin wanted Tanya to think that Niccolo was in the mafia. Which is odd because if he just wanted to kill her, it would make sense to not raise her suspicions at all. Jack is a chav i.e. not a well-educated Brit.

I'll never understand those who identify as "European".....

R502 Someone who was born in and lives in Europe.

Yeah, anytime I read “you Americans” I immediately ignore.

I miss the longer seasons shows used to have. HBO's Six Feet Under had about 12 per season as an example.

R504 But you propagate stereotypes about Italy and 'mafia'. (yes, it does exist there but it's not everything) I'll give Mike White credit; he played on that ignorance through sly Quentin. Same thing with Bert, Dominic and Albie turning up at some random household in Italy expecting to be welcome. That kind of thing.

Has anyone mentioned the false note of Portia knowing Tanya's cell phone number without the aid of her own phone's contact list?

R505, I really like that Mike White makes his season only as long as he needs it to be, to tell his compelling stories. Often, shows like The Handmaid's Tale really overstay their welcome, and start to feel stretched, tedious and repetitive.

In an interview last night, Aubrey Plaza told Seth Meyers Harper and Cameron did more than just kiss.

Aubrey Plaza didn't write the script. She doesn't know any more than the rest of us - it's just her opinion.

Yeah, Aubrey, anything to divert attention form all the praise Fahy is deservedly now getting for her finale scenes, her talent as well as her beauty. I wonder how those two got along on the set?

[quote] The characters in the show mentioned several times that he was involved with the mafia.

[quote]I don't remember this.

Then you weren't paying enough attention.

R512 Hello, I provided evidence. The only person who articulated the word 'mafia' was Tanya. The word 'mafia' was only said twice and both times was by Tanya who assumed it. It was never confirmed by anyone.

But weren't the "Mafia" remarks just to intimidate Tanya? I don't think Niccolo was really tied to it.

It was purposely left open to interpretation, but I think Mike White wanted us to believe they did do more than kiss. Ethan certainly believed they did and that Harper was still lying and he knows her well.

[quote] But you propagate stereotypes about Italy

And you propagate stereotypes about Americans just like you did in your original post. Everyone does this. You’re not not gaining some moral superiority because you’re stating how Americans stereotype. So do you, dear. To the degree that I think or care about Italy, which is not at all, the mafia wouldn’t be the first thing I’d bother thinking about. More like your backward disaster of a barely functioning government which has basically crippled you into a third world country.

Dismissed.

[quote]It was purposely left open to interpretation, but I think Mike White wanted us to believe they did do more than kiss.

“The question of whether Harper and Cameron did more than the kiss, I think probably that’s just all that happened. At the same time, there’s some time that isn’t really accounted for and I think that’s why it’s eating at Ethan,” White said.

Nicco was a murderer for hire, it's not hard to believe a murderer for hire in Sicily would have connections to the mafia

Sorry I won't read this whole thread but is there anyone else who thinks that Mike White is pretty homophobic and that his gay characters are all either evil or caricatures rather than people?

I know he's gay but so many gays, well, hate gays.

Fucking Christ some of you nitpicky queens are exhausting.

Unless Quentin swore a signed affidavit that was properly witnessed and notarized, I refuse to admit Niccolo was Mafia! I am a European and we always know best when it comes to this sort of thing!

R521 You mock but you look stupid to me when you assume that crime in Italy is mafia and that the police won't investigate. Italy actually isn't that corrupt. They do and will investigate mafia crimes.

Sicilians are quite traditional, no? I find it hard to believe that a Sicilian Mafia family would be willing to get into business with a bunch of queens, much less allow one of their own to act as a rent boy for some American

R523 I'll be honest - that is something that I found hard to buy. I think it's more likely that Niccolo was a gay man who was pretending to be mafia to extort money from Tanya.

Hey, even the mafia keeps up with the times r523.

And incidentally, I think the American mob at least had plenty of connections with Roy Cohn, and I'm sure they knew what he was up to on his off hours. Mafiosi have to be a little flexible when it comes to strict Catholic doctrinal purity, even if they go to church and all their kids are baptized.

And I don't think Jack was "one of their own." More of a hustler who was around and was useful in this particular incident.

oops, you didn't mean Jack did you, you meant Niccolo. sorry.

r525 Sure, but I think there's a world of difference between Cohn and a bunch of queens who go to the opera with handbags. And that's without even getting into Cohn's political connections, which would've been useful to them. Whereas in this case, the gays would've just been more people to share the money with.

Of course, I'm aware we're picking over the minutiae of a series which itself is willing to handwave away reality on multiple occasions, like the idea there aren't already professional hookers working The White Lotus, that Jack's phone wouldn't be locked, etc.

Yeah there is a lot unknown about Nicco. I mean he was asked to both fuck Tanya and murder her. How did Quentin know this guy, has Quentin had people murdered before.

When he first appeared I assumed he was just a sex worker, but he was obviously more than that as he was the one in charge of actually killing her.

The actress who plays Daphne is in a relationship with Billy Magnussen who I assumed was gay.

R501, I think the confusion is that in the US the term mafia often is used to mean organized crime--especially if Italians are involved. You seem to be using it for a specific crime organization.

Jack is saying that the men are involved in some kind of organized crime in Italy, and it is reasonable to assume he is telling the truth. We just label that mafia because most of us have no specific knowledge of distinctions among organized crime groups.

Probably going to be crucified for this opinion, but did anyone else cringe anytime Mia sang??? Every song was done in the same cadence and off melody. Otherwise she was this season’s sweetheart.

[QUOTE]We just label that mafia because most of us have no specific knowledge of distinctions among organized crime groups.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Now try to imagine an Italy that is less corrupt than you think. An Italy that actually investigates and prosecutes mafia crimes?

It's hard to believe you nitpicky queens are single!!

Was the entire meeting of Tanya and Greg in S1 all a setup?? With the intention of a sham marriage and later murder? How serendipitous that Greg’s room was next door to Tanya’s. They met when he drunkenly thought her room was his. Mike White had this thought out through at least two seasons. Did he connect it through three….and how…and who? If Greg or Jack now show up in S3, we’ll be suspicious immediately. It will have to be a connected person who we don’t know yet.

Has anyone seen Will Sharpe and Meg Tilly in the same place at the same time?

[quote]Was the entire meeting of Tanya and Greg in S1 all a setup??

Jennifer Coolidge:

I do not think that Greg had planned — I think Mike was trying to figure out what he was going to do with Greg. God, it was so funny because I have all these smart friends and neighbors that go back and look early on at the episodes, and one of my neighbors in New Orleans said, "Oh my God, I went back to episode 1 and there was this line that Greg says where you realize he had this planned all along." And you're like, "Oh my God, that is so smart of them to figure that out." But I think Mike had not planned for Greg to go this way. He had good intentions for Greg, but thought maybe it'd be more interesting if he was awful.

I think it is highly unlikely that Portia didn't leave her passport at the villa or at the hotel, along with her clothes. Tourists do not walk around with their passports; they are a huge hassle to replace if they are lost or stolen.

I actually do walk around with my passport r537. I know many don't, and my husband didn't like that I did that. But I just always felt more secure having it with me.

It's a mistake, R538. Carry around a paper photocopy or take a picture of the ID pages on your phone. I have a friend at the US embassy in Paris, and one day when we were out for lunch, he was on duty. He took so many calls from distraught travellers who had either lost their passports or had their bags containing them stolen.

r531 I didn't cringe, but I certainly didn't think she was as good as the other characters made out she was. And I'm not sure if that was deliberate: look, once it's an attractive woman everyone's willing to overlook the same flaws the old man had

So, in Italy you can hire someone to fuck an old lady, kill her or even do both in one night? You’d think those would be two different skill sets and require outsourcing for each?

Both seasons have some weirdly conservative payoffs to most of the storylines. I can't tell if that is Mike White being cynical about the world and relationships. or is it his conservative upbringing subconsciously coming out through his writing?

The thing I thought was so implausible was that Portia was told by Jack that Tanya was with REALLY bad people and she needed to get away from them.

Tanya already told Portia she thought she was in danger.

And what does Portia do? Pick out some cute sunglasses at the airport without a care in the world.

To me, that was just bad writing. Even Portia wouldn't be so stupid that she forgot to make sure Tanya was OK. Even the "she's not answering her phone" would be a tip-off that she was NOT OK, not permission for Portia to forget the whole thing and find her gate without her luggage.

Conservative in what way, R542? Do you mean politically, or do you mean the payoffs are not as powerful as you would like?

r543 I thought the sunglasses were her (kinda clueless) way of disguising herself

Well, R541, English Jack wasn't up to the job, was he? I wonder if he intended to pretend that he'd finished Portia off as planned.

I don't blame Portia for bailing on Tanya, R543. From the start, she was complaining that Tanya and Greg were crazy, and then Tanya dragged her on a trip to stay with people she barely knew. Jack warned her about the danger she was in if she returned, and he knew what he was talking about. Tanya had put herself and Portia in danger; it wasn't Portia's job to rescue Tanya.

Why are some of you so infatuated with your gayness that you fail to comprehend the most basic parts of this show? Two gay men were killed, as were two straight people. I hardly think the show represents some sort of gay massacre. Get the fuck over yourselves and your "representation".

Who was the second straight person, R547?

I 'm not r547 but I'd still presume Niccolo was straight (and a well-paid if would-be assassin). What evidence is there that he was gay?

And, of course, Tanya, r548, making for 2 straights.

I agree R547. Early depictions of gay people in tv or films had them as being villains and criminals. Later that turned into tragic characters that were only appreciated after they were killed for being gay.

Now gay characters are just part of the story. Sometimes they’re villains. Sometimes they’re tragic. Sometimes they’re stereotypical. Sometimes they’re boring. Just get over it. As long as they’re not being killed because they’re gay and they deserve to, I couldn’t care less. Take it from an Eldergay, we are in a much better place on tv/film than 50 years ago….hell, even 15 years ago.

Sometimes it is useful to make a little imaginative translation:

A bunch of Blacks invite Tanya for an overnight trip to take part in a Gospel Choir festival. They live in Public Housing -- really sordid! Although apparently religious they all have a hidden drug problem and need money for their dealers. Therefore they plan to whack Tanya and make it look like a drug deal gone bad. One of their kids (from multiple fathers) will do it, since if caught they'll be tried in juvenile court.

However Tanya grabs one of their guns (of course) and whacks them all, including the kid -- isn't that great! Unfortunately climbing out of an upper floor window she impales herself on a security spike. That's what she gets for slumming.

I found it laughable that Greg and Quentin met in some kind of Brokeback Mountain dalliance, but then I remembered there was a throwaway line about Greg working for the Brueau of Land Management, so he's basically a Federal cowboy. Alas, what in tarnation would bring "beautiful" Quentin to dude livestock in Wyoming?

[quote] Probably going to be crucified for this opinion, but did anyone else cringe anytime Mia sang??? Every song was done in the same cadence and off melody

Well, at least she was better than the lounge-lizard crooner she replaced.

That would be awesome, R551. I can see Tanya doing it, too.

R553 Debatable. They were both pretty awful in their own unique ways.

Yes dear, R553. And getting stabbed in the nose is better than being stabbed in the eye, right?

Lucia was clearly the smarter whore. She got $50,000 while all Mia got was a job singing at a piano

But that's all Mia wanted, r557. Remember how resistant she was to whoring initially? For her, it was all about getting her singing out there.

Depends on how you look at R557. Lucia and Mia are not just best friends…they’re a team. Lucia will share that $50K with Mia. And Mia only did what she wanted. Mia seems pretty smart.

The prostitutes are success stories of how women use sex to their advantage. Some women manage to work with what they got or dealt with. They aren't victims, and they are also not considered villains because the men are either creeps (like the piano player) or total fools (like in Albie's case: A fool and his money are soon parted).

Lucia wants to go to LA, the true bonfire of the vanities. All that glitters is gold as far as she’s concerned, and, she’s as manipulative as they come.

Mia has a life-long dream, and the piano bar gig was a first, but tiny step in that direction, and something that she was more than satisfied with in the moment. She’s become self-serving, too, but for what she views as a more noble aspiration.

I'm not so sure that Lucia ever wanted to go to LA.

Yeah she probably could have gotten Albie to take her to California. But she ditched him as soon as the money landed in her account.

[quote] The prostitutes are success stories of how women use sex to their advantage.

To me, that makes the plot between Daphne and Ethan so interesting. A woman shares her secrets to a guy who feels powerless in his relationship. So it's not just a "woman" thing anymore.

Lucia would’ve never been able to make it in LA.

Plenty of people have what we call pipe dreams.

I found Daphne to be the most nefarious character. Keep in mind she is the first character we saw in the new series, and she was gushing about how she just had a marvelous time (meanwhile it some weird straight people sex highjinks). I think she meant to get Harper away to the villa on purpose. Furthermore, she seemed to get a thrill with turning a blind eye-- a typical masochist. I say straight people highjinks but I still think Ethan desperately wanted Cam to fuck him; all he could manage during the orgy was to watch, and don't forget the morning-after Molly come-down boys talk about how Cam wanted to be inside Ethan.

Of course Portia would take her passport with her if she was going to leave the White Lotus to spend a couple of days in another part of Italy. She would have kept it in her bag or her luggage and certainly not kept it in her hotel room, where it might have been stolen. She may have been asked to produce it for identification purposes, perhaps for a credit card purchase.

And of course she knew her employer’s cell # why wouldn’t she? She also left some of her things back at the White Lotus, meaning that after Tanya’s nurder was revealed, Portia would be considered a missing person. This may not have happened by the time she got on a plane to go home, but she would have been smart to go straight to the police when she landed.

None of Portia’s many hideous outfits were worth going back to recover.

She annoyed me in the beginning but I’m thankful she got out of the series alive. I thought she was great in the last couple episodes as she was piecing things together (finally).

I'm glad that Cam finally paid his debt to the hookers.

R531, god forgive me but I died inside a bit when she sang. Her character was a sweetie pie but lawd god, I wasn’t sure if we were really supposed to buy that she was a great talent.

She and Lucia were my two favorite characters though.

[quote]she was great in the last couple episodes as she was piecing things together (finally).

She really was - she had that frozen downturned mouth thing down pat, where you could tell she was utterly terrified but was doing everything she could to hold it together and not let on, even as her face betrayed her - if you told one thousand actors how to "act scared" only a handful would nail that specific but extremely realistic behavior as well as she did

[quote] Lucia wants to go to LA, the true bonfire of the vanities. All that glitters is gold as far as she’s concerned, and, she’s as manipulative as they come.

She said that to Dominic, but I think she said that just to make herself seem more attractive to him. She told Mia (whom she's more likely to have been honest with) that what she really wanted was to buy a shop in Taormina.

R573, I think some people on DL are as naive as Abie.

A prostitute with no discernable legit skills and not great english thinks she can improve her life by moving to LA? Right....

R574 In fairness, her English was pretty good. That was something I noticed from the beginning: how did these girls (stuck in Sicily and Italian education) speak English so fluently. (Maybe in Mia's "theater arts" school).

For anyone with the ear for it.... was the Italian spoken mostly/wholly Sicilian dialect or was it Standard or mixed? I speak Spanish and I've always though I could understand Sicilian dialect better than other regions.

Lucia, with some help and some connections, would do just fine in LA as a sex worker. Trust.

While I'm totally onboard with Portia tucking her passport into her purse for that last car trip with Jack, where she already sensed she was being dangerously pushed some place she didn't want to go, I just can't believe she would know Tanya's cell number without her contact list. I could never tell you some of my best friends' numbers. Could you?

Plus her plane ticket. I've never lost one, do airlines just replace them with no issue? Especially given it would've been bought for her by Tanya

In 2022, how does one “lose” a plane ticket? Her phone and passport would have been plenty. I can overlook the phone number, but it would have been easy to fix with a short scene. I can totally imagine Tanya insisting that her assistant commit her phone number to memory.

R531 Cringeworthy for sure, but this is what passes as talent/emotion now, so it was kind of realistic (in a depressing way). Definitely over-the-top and arm-hair-raising, but the "Britain's Got Talent" thing reigned supreme here, and (thank god!) she wasn't out of tune.

Maybe Portia checked whitepages.com on Jack’s phone to get Tanya’s number. Who knows.

I also thought Mia’s singing wasn’t great. Especially the last song.

Loved Mia, hated her "That's Amore"

With the exception of Quinn, pretty much every storyline resolution in S1 and S2 could be read as socially/politically conservative. Now, I'm not saying Mike White votes Republican nor trying to make some grand cynical statement about the world. I just he's a (relatively) talented artist jerking off (literally and figuratively).

r582, your post makes no sense. Socially/politically conservative??? What does that even mean?

R582, how do you get that?

The rich people are all morally compromised and get away with out consequences.

The poor suffer for less egregious transgressions.

That is the opposite of what social/political conservatives think. They feel the world is fair as it is.

I did enjoy this season but not sure what to think about the finale... it's still percolating in my brain... maybe the point is that it's very rare that we ever get the full story or something wrapped up neatly in life. There are way too many loose ends that we won't get answers to

In the White Lotus buffet of ass - Shane, Dillon, Kai, Jack, Albie - I'd still go back for seconds of Kai.

Seconds of Kai, thirds of Jack. Leaving Shane off the plate.

I thought S1 was good because it seemed to have a message or two. S2 was just unimaginative soap opera, making me think I imagined any meaning in S1. Unlikely to watch S3.

In season: one; the emasculated husband "man's up", fucks his :pants-wearing" wife and it revives their marriage. A very similar thing happens in season two. It's presented as a positive and, thus, reads as conservative to me. That last shot of Harper and Ethan embracing at the airport hits the bullseye. Anything else is more subjective and debatable.

Ok…..R589. Now we know what you’re about. Hmmm.

You do know R589 that your explanation is the opposite of conservative.

Just as you might be the opposite of not a dingbat.

R588 If the trend continues, I'd watch S3 just for the visuals. Even with the sound off maybe.

[quote]Bitches, this is one of the most unpleasant television shows I have watched and you should be pissing on Mike White now. Dear god in heaven.

[quote]I’m going to watch Bros again for the positive gay representation, not this shit. This is why I hate Ryan Murphy as well.

Tell me you haven't been laid since the Carter administration without telling me you haven't been laid since the Carter administration.

Better yet R593, tell me you have a brain tumor the size of a papaya without telling me you have a brain tumor the size of a papaya.

[quote]A bunch of Blacks invite Tanya for an overnight trip to take part in a Gospel Choir festival. They live in Public Housing -- really sordid! Although apparently religious they all have a hidden drug problem and need money for their dealers. Therefore they plan to whack Tanya and make it look like a drug deal gone bad. One of their kids (from multiple fathers) will do it, since if caught they'll be tried in juvenile court.

That would be the Tyler Perry version of "White Lotus". Your point?

Why are some of you putting politics into this? Not everything is about politics. Just watch and enjoy. Gays and straights can be good and bad. I doubt people like MTG and other magats are watching and reading "oh those guys are terrible".

[quote] I just can't believe she would know Tanya's cell number without her contact list. I could never tell you some of my best friends' numbers. Could you?

Tanya was not Portia's friend; she was her boss, and an especially demanding one at that who expected Portia would always be available for her 24/7.

Portia would have been stupid not to memorize Tanya's number.

I'm sorry but do the straight couples in this come off looking *better*?

R596, actually everything is about politics. Shakespeare, Chaplin, MGM musicals, Miller, etc. How can anyone create anything without their beliefs about the world entering into it?

Netflix and Amazon Prime have entire GLBT libraries of grade-Z gay Hallmark romcoms. Shit writing, shit acting, with all the dramatic intensity of a sexual harassment training video.

I hope Mike White does a spinoff series that shows how the inept local police stumble at solving Tanya's "crime" on the yacht. There could even be a crossover episode with the Moscow, Idaho police department.

Hilarity ensues.

Ratings. Bonanza.