Same day termination / layoffs - American phenomenon?

Your writing skills are atrocious.

R1 = disgruntled ex-employee

R1 I see nothing wrong with the OP’s writing skills.

OP, this is a common practice with large financial firms in the UK.

I’d prefer that to being pulled in one by one.

At will firing is pretty much an American phenomenon. They can fire you at any time, for any reason, without any notice and if you are fired, you are not getting unemployment. If you are laid off, then yes. In the UK, they get employment contracts and I believe something like 3 months notice, plus benefits. In the 'Europeans Different Than Americans' thread, at will firing with no notice was one of the more shocking differences.

Often, you will suddenly lose accesss to your email, teams/chat, etc before they even fire you. That's how you know you are fucked!

I just finished conducting a round of layoffs at my company and while it's never easy, it is noticeably smoother now that we're fully remote. There was no scrambling to reserve a conference room located near an exit, no fist pounding on conference room tables, no walk of shame, no boxing up desk items and walking out to the parking lot with the employee and security. It wasn't happy but I think everyone left the conversation with dignity still in tact.

Previously we would try letting an employee know a few weeks in advance, let them tell the team whatever story they wanted about why they were leaving, and basically they got the same severance package but they were "working" during those weeks. Some did okay with it and just hung out and did nothing, but others became toxic or even attempted to sabotage projects.

There were also times when I walked employees back to their desks to help them collect belongings. Some handled it okay but others started shouting through the halls to other employees and basically threw massive tantrums. We had to stop allowing it.

Ultimately, it's risky to let employees have advance notice or return to their desks because some become volatile and make an enormous scene. It's hard to know who will throw a fit and who will be fine. In the end, offering a nice severance package and making the separation immediate seems to work better for everyone involved. OP, if you were recently laid off I'm sorry to hear it and hope you get to take some time to relax and recharge.

I am afflicted by spastic flatus. I have prolonged and aggressive farting spells. I work in a cubicle. I was once physically by an obese female coworker on account of my spastic flatus. I needed stitches. They didn’t fire her.

Do you think it would be a petty, low key revenge for an awful female boss to find out info on her husband. Then just mail a simple note to him covered in perfume that says something like: "we need to finally have that talk" and address is from his female assistant. I don't think that is a marriage ender, but it might always make her slightly suspicious and that's goo enough for me. Do you think that's too crazy an idea or could it work, You would never know the results, so you'd have to just trust in the universe.

R7 = smooth-brain loser.

I’m a hairdresser and this is common for every shop I’ve worked at. Usually I would take them out for coffee to fire them, (Once, a stylist knowing she was going to get the axe said, “I don’t droning coffee”.

Now that I work for a large corporate chain, I need to have plenty of paperwork, write ups, and signed notices leading up to dismissal.

I’m glad I don’t and never got to work from home because I think it make firing easier and a LOT of people are going to be unpleasantly surprised.

That kind of firing is so 90’s.

R10, you're fired. Pack your shit and go.

Whenever one is called into manager's or supervisor's office first thing Monday morning or last thing on a Friday afternoon it was never going to end well; that I promise you...

In past usual procedure was to get the thing done quietly and avoid a scene. This may or may not have gone as planned.

On more than a few occasions terminated (now former) employee showed their entire ass before going.

Beside usual ranting and screaming one girl began telling of an affair she had with her boss (who wasn't one doing the firing, that was head of department). Another was trans who was close to tearing place apart.

Latter got some of her own back in that a few years later manager who did the termination died in an automobile accident. Caused apparently by reaction to HIV/AIDS medication he was taking....

They made a whole movie about it.

Same-day termination is for security purposes, so disgruntled soon-to-be-ex employees will not have too much time to sabotage the company in retaliation.

When you march out of the office holding your box of personal items, make sure there's a plant sticking out of one side of the box, and on the other side a framed photo lying flat on top of a stack of lever arch files.

R7 illustrates that "firing" and "lay-off" have increasingly merged as something of a distinction without a difference.

Laid-off used to be the good one. To be laid-off was not a negative reflection the employee, only a organizational change such as downsizing, reorganization, merger, loss of clients or contracts, etc. Laid-off employees were eligible for unemployment benefits, given some severance, invited to reapply for jobs at the same employer in the future, offered nominal employment counseling... Something better than a poke in the eye. Years ago lay-offs were not immediate but at the end of the year, the quarter, the month, two weeks... a bit of a transition from work and income to neither.

Fired meant, "It's not me, it's you." The employer determined that the employee didn't meet some measure of performance or contractual obligation -- "for cause.". He usually had no opportunity for severance, unemployment, or other benefits; fired employees were not invited to reapply for employment with the same organization, their badges, passes, keys, company property were taken and the fired employees were escorted off the premises immediately by a manager and/or security officer.

Electronic files make companies more vulnerable to laid-ff employees on their way out the door destroying work files or causing other electronic mischief; it's not as simple as locking the personnel and project file cabinets and letting employees take a few days or a few months to wrap up projects neatly. Lay-offs, particularly on a large scale, foster ill will. With email and other means, employees can contact project leads on collaborative/contractural projects outside the company -- 20 years ago not everyone involved n the XYZ Project had the email addresses and mobile numbers of the outside company that they were working with or indirectly for -- nor did they have the contact info for everyone in their own workplace.

If you're going "to let people go," for whatever reason, there are compelling reasons to do it swiftly and to get their laptops back and to get them off premises immediately. The distinction between laid-off and fired has been blurred in other ways, too. Senior staff with years of service are singled out not by age (because that, of course, would be illegal) but by targeting "units" of work-from-home staff who don't want to change course and come into the office 4 or 5 days a week. It's a hybrid way of firing people they are in effect laying off not for performance reasons but for belt-tightening reasons: they are being let go because they can't/won't meet "asses back on premises in office Aerons" requirements but given some severance package that's again, "better than a stick in the eye." Whether it's 50 people who are fired that way or 500, the company trims costs because full-time work from home staff typically have some significant seniority and higher salaries. Whatever the guise of reducing staff, once out the door, the company often lifts it hard times hiring freeze and immediately hires fresh from university staff and promotes more people to managers to train them to do more for less. They do not rehire people who were let go because of "cost reduction" or "a change in business direction."

"Fired" and "laid-off" used to have very different connotations. Now it's a jumble, but the objective is always to get everyone fired or laid-off out of the way of danger immediately.

R17 et al

Bet in hindsight Facebook regrets not shutting down Frances Haugen's passwords and other means of access soon as she gave notice. Bitch spent those two or so weeks downloading all sorts of files that she later happily gave to Congress or anyone else who wanted.

Ms. Haugen wasn't the first who got up to such antics, nor likely will be last. It isn't just those who are being terminated that can cause mischief, but also those employees who have given notice, even those once formerly highly regarded.

Then you have situations like this....

Read on and learn....

Sadly in many cases you still have heads of departments, supervisors and above who have computer skills rather not unlike some on DL. A 12 year old script kid can run rings around them, and that also goes for many younger employees.

Because they don't understand modern tech in whole or good part, such person also fail to also understand just how much damage can be done with a few mouse clicks. Many simply put all their trust into the "IT guy" or whoever they've delegated such responsibility.

Not an American phenomenon.

I've seen ad agencies in Australia lose accounts and sack everyone working on them the same day. This was years ago, so things have probably changed.

Also know of a German multi-national company where they sack you with no notice and you're out the door immediately. If you complain, you don't get severance pay or a reference.

^ Also meant to add the German company makes you sign something to say you're okay with that deal. lol

I got sacked effective immediately but for some reason had over an hour to pack my shit and also walk around and say good bye to a few people which I requested and for some reason they allowed. I did it with considerable chic and sang froid but now many years later I don't know why I did it. I don't remember those colleagues who seemed important and my saving face was unimportant. I would prefer to be escorted into a waiting town car directly and not even pack my shit. Let them do it.

I work in the US for a very large company headquartered in europe. We just went through laying off 4000 people world-wide. They announced that there would be layoffs, but that we in the US wouldn't know if we were caught up in it for several weeks. So we had a sword of Damocles hanging over our heads for weeks while we tried to continue with business as usual.

Our department director, tired of getting pressed for any developments at every meeting, didn't really provide any updates but did say the extended uncertainty was due to longer notification periods mandated in other countries. I don't know why they didn't lay off people in waves though. It seemed like they were waiting to hit everyone at the same time.

[quote]I did it with considerable chic and sang froid but now many years later I don't know why I did it. I don't remember those colleagues who seemed important and my saving face was unimportant. I would prefer to be escorted into a waiting town car directly and not even pack my shit. Let them do it.

Well, fuck the sang froid, the waiting town car would change everything...

I worked from home full time for many years and always instructed my bosses that I would look very unkindly to being asked to come into the office to be fired in person The much, much kinder thing would not have been a three-hour drive each way but a quick phone call and pre-addressed, pre-paid FedEx box to return an office laptop.

When I retired the HR and IT departments were on my ass like crazy about shipping back a company laptop, multiple emails from multiple people every day asking for tracking details. I was living in another country and they couldn't get it together to give me a working billing code or arrangement for pre-paid international shipping. I showed them an estimate of the cost to ship it (about 200 USD) and said that I would ship it the same day they deposited that exact amount in my account. The HR/IT people were so pissy that I wrote at one point, "Fuck it, stop lecturing me about the great security risk I pose in retiring after 20+ years and start figuring out how to reimburse me in advance or to arrange prepaid shipment of the laptop. It sits in the back of a closet until you do."

Ridiculous, really, as it would have been so simple to simply cut off my server access and, for that matter, write off a 3+ year old laptop (not that I had any use for it but to save the cost/bother of shipping something of little value.) But I lost six months of pay in a company merger so I gave six weeks notice that I was leaving and worked only a couple days the first week of that; I was never going to recover the six months lost pay, but I figured no one would balk at six weeks of doing nothing.

Just an odd footnote: It used to be traditional to fire employees in early December so they could spend more time with their families at Christmas. Yup, that was their logic.

Most terminations are same day. Who wants a fired employee around the office, upsetting everyone and possibly sabotaging the company? This is just common sense. Who would want to be the fired employee, still expected to show up for work the next day, with everybody staring at you with pity, contempt or glee?

The big difference is whether there is severance pay and benefits or not. Layoffs often provide some sort of severance and continuation of benefits. Termination for cause, for attendance issues or poor performance does not. And with a layoff, unemployment will likely be approved, while with a firing it might or might not be depending on the circumstances.

Where I work, it's rare for anyone at a manager level or above to be fired, unless there was gross misconduct. Even poor performers are laid off with severance, and the company will not contest an unemployment claim.

"Termination for cause, for attendance issues or poor performance does not. And with a layoff, unemployment will likely be approved, while with a firing it might or might not be depending on the circumstances."

Things are not exactly so neatly cut and dry....

Employees long on being written up are often terminated with a good to generous severance package. This and also employer indicates they will not dispute any claim for unemployment insurance. Usually terminated employee must sign some papers agreeing to what is laid down.

Yes, OTOH those terminated for cause (absenteeism, tardiness, etc...) are often called into someone's office and told what's what, and get out "now". This usually only happens after employer has laid down a pretty good track record of paperwork (written warnings) so they can dispute any claims for paying UI and or possible legal action.

In most states one can collect UI if terminated for no *fault of their own*, this regardless of what employer calls notice. If there is a factory or company wide temporary termination (laid off), then UI will ask about if employer has any idea of when people will be recalled,

One of first questions asked when filing for UI is does applicant know why they were terminated. If response is "yes, I was late for work one day...", UI will ask if they had been given any sort of warning (written up). If answer to last bit is "yes", and company can back it up, applicant's claim will be denied.

Above gives lie to people trying to get fired just to claim UI. No business is going to fall for that game, so it becomes a stalemate.

Yes, in at will states employees can be terminated for any or no reason, but that does not mean they cannot get UI.

We all know you're a [bold]REAL[/bold] cunt R7.

I worked for one place that laid us off but told us in advance. It was fine. We knew it was coming. We got to say goodbye and have a little party.

I worked for one place that threw us a party at a fancy bar, then called us all at 5 AM to lay us off so we didn't come into work. Our belongings, we were told, would be mailed to us but they didn't deactivate our IDs so a few people went back and got their stuff.

I worked for one place that "terminated" me at the end of the day, after my badge let them know I had walked out of the building. Then my boss called me the next day to ask me why I wasn't at work. I told him what happened and he said he'd look into it because it didn't make sense. Then his boss emailed me, said I didn't answer the phone at my desk and he had questions about a project. I told him what happened. He said he'd get back to me and figure out what went down. Then HR called me and told me they weren't allowed to talk to me any more but they would investigate.

However, their mistake was not deactivating my email fast enough. I pulled all my evaluations, monthly reviews, and even kind emails from people that I'd gotten earlier in the week.

When a person at unemployment called and said, "they're saying you were terminated with cause but I wanted to talk with you directly," I forwarded them all to her. I thought it was weird she called but long story short, apparently the company had "terminated" "with cause" about 24 people over the course of the month. I got my unemployment and everyone I knew from that group I still talked to got their unemployment as well.

Fast forward three months later, they called and offered me my job back. I told the HR person I was fired. She said, no. My file said I was laid off. I told them to go fuck themselves. No, I literally said that to them. I already had a new job.

Before retirement I worked for a large conglomerate for 3+ decades. Our policy on involuntary separations was that all affected employees would leave immediately. Most received severance pay, but a few who were terminated for extreme cause did not. Those who were terminated on good terms were allowed to return to their offices/work stations unaccompanied to gather their personal belongings and say their goodbyes to their coworkers. Those who were terminated for cause were escorted to their work areas and allowed to gather their belongings and then escorted outside the building. We gave quite lucrative separation packages to most people and made their terminations as easy on them as possible. We usually paid for job search assistance for most people at a rate of 10% of their annual salary. They could either take it in a cash payout, or have the payment go directly to a job search firm. Most took the cash.

Insane that you can’t access unemployment benefits if you’re ‘fired’ when the presence or lack of ‘cause’ is mainly determined by the company that you no longer work for.

Not really... Process is quite fair in most states IMHO. You can request a hearing and appeal decisions not to get UI. Employers don't always win their cases either.

Important thing here is being terminated for cause; an employer must prove someone was let go because of something they did otherwise.....

Again even in an employment at will state people still can collect UI if termination is without a valid reason.

[quote]It wasn't happy but I think everyone left the conversation with dignity still in tact.

There is no dignity to be had in being fired or laid off.

You can challenge the nature of your termination for UI purposes (firing for valid cause vs. no valid cause).

Years ago we had a gal at office who couldn't arrive on time if her life depended upon it. She also had a few bad work habits (including sometimes a nasty attitude), so she was constantly written up with hopes she'd get the hint and leave.

This went on for two or more years, person was never really off warning for long. Keep in mind while on warning she didn't get raises or end of year bonus.

One day there was a major accident on NYC subway early morning rush that pretty much fucked up entire system. So of course Miss Girl was late, and guess what? They terminated her later that day regardless of circumstances. Meanwhile nearly everyone else came in late that day, some by hours, but she was on warning...

Wrapping up Miss Girl went to UI and filed, they asked if she knew why was terminated and explained about trains, etc... Company responded with copies of warning notices for tardiness and UI sided with them, no UI was awarded because girl was fired for cause. She was told not to report late, and she did, reason didn't matter.

Overheard HR and head of department crowing over this and wanted to slap both upside head. It wouldn't harm company to have paid that UI claim and despite her previous work history Miss Girl was trying to improve.

Unemployment benefit should be paid even if you are fired for good reason. You want more people homeless on the streets? Where I’m from you get unemployment when you turn 18 immediately even if you never worked. And it’s never questioned, you can stay on it your entire life if you choose.

I think people should be able to collect UI without having to fight for it. More and more, I’m seeing toxic work environments and managers with zero people management ability. Some people have very good reasons to quit their jobs and shouldn’t be pushed to the breaking point.

[quote]More and more, I’m seeing toxic work environments and managers with zero people management ability.

That same company I mentioned up above acquired another company.

Rather than let go of all of the redundant employees with some kind of severance, some they placed in our offices far outside of town so they'd have long commutes and others they made do manual labor. These were all accountant types. Paper pushers.

You'd see older women and men, trying to lift boxes and put them on shelves. People pushing giant book carts back and forth. Random people doing filing and carting piles of paper around. This one woman had some kind of asthma and another man was constantly helping her because she couldn't do it.

Most of them quit within a few months and ... which meant no unemployment ... which is exactly what the company wanted.

Worked in radio for 25 years. No such thing as two-week notice. They're afraid you'll get on-the-air and bad mouth everyone in the place. A friend was at a station for 35 years, taped Saturday show on Thursday and was shown the door. A gracious woman, she would have liked to say good-bye to the listeners. Her firing was in the local papers. Fortunately, she's now on another station in our market.

In many parts of Europe employees of all sorts work via contracts. It can be difficult to get rid of an EU nation employee with a valid labor contract absent some specific reasons.

Right to work as defined and known in USA does not exist in Europe.

Yes, R43. In some countries there are workers "in the black" with jobs but without contracts or protections, with marginal wages and too few hours (e.g., the restaurant business.) For other jobs, the applicant is sometimes asked what he will pay the employer for a contracted job -- also a way of putting people on the books for jobs that don't exist.

UI is an insurance plan the company has to pay for. Companies will fight to keep anyone who doesn't deserve UI from getting it because the more people who collect it the higher the company's premiums go. That's just the way things work. If an employee is terminated not for cause and the company tries to prevent them from getting UI it's rare that the company will win. If they lie about the former employee they open themselves up to far greater danger from a lawsuit.

I seem to remember in NYC that unemployment could not be denied anyone. I thought the difference was that fired for cause people had to wait a time before unemployment would start. Its blurry now. This was a few dacades ago.

Unemployment is different than minimum Income in many European countries. There are three ways to have income if you can't work - unemployment, minimum income, and disability. This is a good idea and they should have differing qualifying criteria.

Minimum income is low but it might come with subsidized housing, and various kinds of subsidized food.

The reason same-day termination became the norm is because of a situation similar to one that happened at one of my former jobs.

The human resource manager? (The human resource department consisted solely of this one man) was given one week notice before termination.

He came in two hours early his last day and wiped the hard drive of every computer in the office.

They lost everything including all backups of sales, accounts payable and payroll even employee information such as health insurance and Social Security numbers.

He had left the building and was leaving the parking lot as the first of the office personnel were arriving.

Over 2000 people had to wait seven days past payday to get their checks.

I agree with same-day termination 100%.

Tell them they are fired and don’t let them go back to their office. Escort them out the door and take them their personal effects.

Any paperwork that has to be filled out can be done in the parking lot.

R47, that guy is my hero.

Surprised to see that no one has mentioned that, at least in the US, if you terminate someone and don't ask them to leave immediately (and sever all access) or tell them they are about to be laid off in a weeks time there's more than a slight chance that they will come into the office with an AR-47 and kill people.

Do employees not contribute to UI through their salaries or does only the company pay for it?

I've been working from home since 2008. I have several freelance accounts, I work in a creative field.

I was at my last on-staff job for several years. It was an in-house art department. The douchebag Creative Director, was always paranoid that a laid off worker was going bring in a gun and kill him, because of this, he always made sure to never be on premises the day one of his staff was escorted out.

This closet case was a spineless creep, a terrible person who always took credit for others work. As far as fired workers, he would tell the people he liked that they were losing their jobs, while others were told the same day and escorted out.

This jerk would know in advance the exact day the people he liked would be let go, that way he gave them time to pack up their belongings. Even in those cases, he made sure to not be there on their last day. He didn't even trust the people he liked who supposedly liked him, he was super paranoid.

This awful man suffered from cancer for awhile, then finally died. Karma.

Have terminated employees actually shot up their workplace? Have their been any notable cases where they have caused mayhem?

You've got to be trolling, R52. Troll better!

This happens a lot, where the fuck do you think the expression "going postal" comes from? USPS employees getting fired, then coming back and shooting up their former workplace.

Not a troll, just not American, R53 and I don't follow US news as much. Workplace killings are extremely rare in Europe.

R52

I don't droning coffee, BITCH!

[quote] Do employees not contribute to UI through their salaries or does only the company pay for it?

Here's the lowdown on UI.

---------------

Who pays for unemployment benefits?

Unemployment insurance is funded through a company’s payroll taxes. Each individual state has its own unemployment office that manages applications and payments, with the requirements to qualify for benefits varying from state to state.

Two sections of payroll tax go toward unemployment: the Federal Unemployment Tax Act fee (FUTA) and the State Unemployment Tax Act fee (SUTA). The FUTA tax is 6% on $7,000 of each employee’s annual wages, costing a maximum of $420 per employee per year. Employers always pay the FUTA tax and in exchange are eligible for a maximum 5.4% tax credit. Companies that qualify for the maximum tax credit end up paying 0.6% of the $7,000 wage liability, making the per-employee cost of unemployment insurance for FUTA only $42 each year.

Each state determines its own rates for SUTA tax, so it’s important to research the requirements where your company is based. Companies that operate in multiple states or have employees working remotely in different states may be subject to additional unemployment tax. While the federal taxable income limit for unemployment insurance is $7,000, states can set their own wage base for SUTA taxes.

SUTA tax rates can be impacted by the number of unemployment claims made against your company. Employers who dismiss a large number of employees may be subject to a higher SUTA rate than those that have not been liable for any unemployment claims.

R48 he did jail time for it.

In reality almost anyone who is terminated will be able to collect unemployment. It's rare that companies will fight it, too much of a hassle and bad PR, and it's rare that government wouldn't end up letting it go through. It would have to be pretty unusual circumstances to not get it.

The days of the once standard two week notice are long gone.

It makes zero sense to tell someone they are terminated and still expect them to show up and do their job for another two weeks r59.

R60, An intelligent employer would not want an exiting employee on the premises for two weeks.

The states usually side with the employee.

I’m involved in a nonprofit where on occasion we’ve terminated employees for really egregious behavior, and we provided a full accounting to the state of what happened, yet they always have approved the UI.

R61, right, but the company might pay the employee for two weeks. "Here's you two weeks' notice. We'll keep paying you and continue your benefits, but don't come to work." And, of course, their access and ID badge are immediately invalidated.

In my state all employers are required to provide a written "termination letter" to any employee who is involuntarily separated. That letter must be presented to the UI office when they apply for benefits. There are some small companies that are ignorant of the law and the UI offices usually don't go after them. But they do give them a chance to answer when someone applies for benefits. But one thing is for sure. If someone is terminated for cause it's rare they would be approved for benefits if the company chooses to fight it.

Two or more weeks pay plus severance.

Payment for unused PTO days

Won't contest UI benefits

Any and all is on the table when a company wants to get someone out the door if they don't have (or believe they do) solid footing.

Just sign these papers and please get the fuck out....

Same-day terminations are necessary where security risks are high. I hate it, too, but have had to "walk off" several employees. Except in three cases where criminal or dangerous behavior was discovered and circumstances called for the person being removed (theft of other employees' property, violent threats, destruction of data and using company IT to target someone). Otherwise I give people a month's pay, even if it's best they leave pronto.

The problem is a severe decline in people's judgment - bad-vibes, acting out, damaging things, etc. One time at a place I worked the CEO was all "so sorry" with a 25-year-old incompetent twat and the twat did her two weeks and proceeded to super glue all the keyholes to the building doors. There were four businesses in the building and it was a mess for a bit. Bitch came back late at night and somehow forgot the comprehensive coverage of security cameras. We had her arrested, mainly to cover the hassle to the other companies, who were our tenants in the building. She cried her little heart out at the hearing and ended up taking a guilty plea. The tears stopped like a faucet shut off.

I did have one ex-employe "stalk" my house. She'd park in front of the house for several hours at night and did the flashlight-in-the-windows routine. Creepy. I finally took out a tray with milk and cookies and she took off and that was that.

[quote]Same-day terminations are necessary where security risks are high. I hate it, too, but have had to "walk off" several employees.

I used to work with an admin assistant who had been at a company for 45+ years. She was great. She had, "seen them come and go." We had "open" offices and I believe she was the only one on my half of the floor. She was like an office grandma. She was the woman that always had "candy."

I saw them have armed guards escort her out of the building because they decided to terminate her two years before retirement.

The "kindness" they gave to her, was going back upstairs, putting everything on and in her desk in boxes and taking it outside to help her carry it back to her car.

They did lay off a bunch of people a few weeks later but they told them in advance. I barely made the cut since I'd been there two years but the people who came after me were let go as well as a few execs.

They replaced her with a hot 20 something that would sit on the edge of her desk, one high heeled shoe dangling from her toes, holding court for all the straight men in that office because they found everything she said funny.

R67, that example you gave is the type of situation where they need to make exceptions.

At my former long-time employer, management was always complaining that we didn’t have a robust alumni network. I was blunt: when you exit everyone so callously, how can you expect better?