Calling all Medical and Experienced Dataloungers for your help... Possible Food Contamination that led to a death

I know there is an ongoing blackberry contamination of Hepatitis A that cause in outbreak in 2019.

Don't try to solve this yourself. Find a lawyer - a white shoe firm specializing in litigation. They will know how to access testing etc. In the meantime, keep half of what you have fresh and maybe freeze half? Bacteria usually survives freezing.

ALDI hasn't had any blackberry recalls recently. Their last recall was in early October for falafel. If it were the blackberries, many other people would have been sickened by now and not every doctor would have missed it.

It sounds like an intestinal obstruction. People can still get "diarrhea" with one, as the water in the bowels can often get past the obstruction, but nothing else.

^I'm a layperson, so that's just my two cents. But the symptoms sound like it to me, particularly given this was a nearly 80 year old man.

Contact the Department of Health in your state and speak with an expert on food product contamination.

Asking about testing the bacteria in the blackberries. On the other hand, blackberries may have had nothing to do with it. Food poison may not be cause of the symptoms and death..

Did he have a flu shot? Even so, at that age, he could have contracted it and it got him.

I have a thread out here about the resistance I'm getting dealing with GI issues, OP. My condolences.

Although laws vary, nearly all states call for an autopsy when someone dies in a suspicious, unusual, or unnatural way.

Many states have one done when a person dies without a doctor present. Twenty-seven states require it if the cause of death is suspected to be from a public health threat, such as a fast-spreading disease or tainted food.

If there was no autopsy, determining the cause would be inconclusive.

PA law, when determining if an autopsy is required:

(7) A death known or suspected to be due to contagious disease and constituting a public hazard.

Did he die at home or in hospital? Such a shame the process seems to have failed here and he was embalmed so quickly. Maybe you can sue the hospital instead, for releasing the body within hours, before the process kicked in. Best of luck.

Be suspicious of anyone who was involved in the decision NOT to autopsy. The fuck?

I mean, how big is his estate? Also, was he well liked in the family or a colossal jerk?

Condolences OP.

Thank you all for your kind words and advice. There is no large estate at play. I thought it was odd that someone dies at home, and that it is just accepted without any kind of autopsy. I guess when they see someone over a certain age they don't question it. My husband is flying back tomorrow to be with his mom. There is not much that can be done until he gets there.

OP, I’m so sorry about this sudden loss. I’m sure it’s been overwhelming.

[quote] Find a lawyer - a white shoe firm

That’ll be very difficult. It’s after Labor Day, you know.

Grandma whacked him out.

he's dead. it's over. family members always seek to blame after a death.

He was 80 and died from a bowel obstruction, which he had symptoms of for several days. This is not unusual or suspicious.

I want to know who to blame for your broken shift key, r19.

your dead momma.

Did he still have his appendix?

The symptoms can sometimes be confused with other things; also, the pain can come and go.

If he unknowingly had cancer that's one cause.

Lawyer here: First, you can have a private autopsy done and that can determine the cause of death. If the cause of death can be linked to contaminated produce, then there is certainly some liability that attaches. You have correctly identified the evidentiary problem -- how to prove that the produce was (a) contaminated and then, (b) that caused the death. If the blackberries were contaminated, then it was likely with e-coli. If you still have them, take them to a standard water quality laboratory or other testing laboratory and ask them to test for bacteria and e-coli.

How do you know the cause of death, if he died at home and no testing or autopsy was done? Sounds like all speculation.

Of course it is. They wanna cha-ching on this old man’s death.

I'm sorry for your loss. From strictly a perspective of alerting State officials to investigate possible contagion, I recommend reporting the suspicion to State Department of Health, Foodborne Illness investigators. They would be able to clarify if a list of other things FIL ate, in addition to the berries, is needed. Long ago I did this sort of survey work, and can attest there are more outbreaks than there are news stories about outbreaks.

(I can also tell anyone interested, never, ever, ever get a pedicure in one of those whirlpool-type machines at a nail place. Saw many cases where people were horribly infected with stubborn fungi and bacterial infections.)

Thank you for you r25 and r28. It's just the initial shock of it all that you seek some kind of answers. He was a healthy man, good health, wasn't taking any medications, liked gardening. He didn't have any health issues that we knew off. But who knows if this was something that was lingering that coincided with him eating the blackberries. I guess we will never really know. We do still have the berries and most likely will get them tested. But who even knows what can be done even if they came back positive. And it wasn't an obstruction of his intestines, it was a Rupture. Something ate away at the lining of his intestines. I guess even at a morgue they look at the internal organs, study them. And that is what they saw. There was no autopsy performed before they embalmed him unfortunately.

CAn I say something here about older adults? I have noticed a very clear difference about how they are treated by medical professionals. My own mother got calls from various specialists reminding her to get her tests, bone density, mammograms, etc. and CT Scans a d MRIs for lungs, pancreas, colonoscopy for her GI tract, etc. But once she turned 75, all of a sudden things changed. We had to insist they do their jobs when she was unwell. They seemed to not do their due diligence when mother got sick. My dad had a stroke. He had been a professional athlete in his youth and he remained fit and sensible about his health. But when my brother had to carry him into the hospital and he was examined, the physicians' biases set in. "Hey, he's doing great for his age..." My brother had to tell him, "No, he's not." At 81 my dad is inn a bowling league once a week, and walks for about an hour or more every day.He is definitely not doing great."

I'm sorry for your loss. I would freeze the blackberries. The longer they stay out, the more likely someone one day would say "Well, how do you know the berries didn't go bad AFTER he ate them?" But do talk to the doctors. Maybe they'll say "No, it wasn't food contamination" and that would give you some peace of mind.

Think perforation, as opposed to rupture. Think "wore out", like a sock or an old bag, as opposed to "something ate away at". He was old and stubborn and may have had pain for a long time and never mentioned it..

It wasn't the berries that killed him it was the lack of immediate medical attention/ surgery. You say he was sick last week and went to the Dr but they didn't do anything? That's the issue to pursue, IMO. As the in-law, remember your place as support, not as a shit-stirrer.

PS Embalming doesn't involve removing organs so there is another miscommunication of some sort. Good luck to you.

You can send the blackberries to an independent lab. Start googling. I do not know if the lab would be able to single out a bacteria from last week (or whenever he ate them) from the normal rotting of the blackberries. I don't know if you froze them, or if freezing would kill any bacteria.

Even if they do find a bacteria, it will still be extremely hard to prove this caused his death. Especially if he's the only person this happened to. If there were other people this happened to, then yes, your chances of winning will increase.

Lawsuits are hard to win. Especially lawsuits against big companies. The media gives a false impression about & sensationalize lawsuits.

The life expectancy in the US is 77.28 years. So he was already living on borrowed time.

He could have had a perforation from diverticulitis.

I’m sorry, OP.

I'm sorry, OP. Shocking deaths among the healthy come with a host of Whys and What ifs.

I'm surprised he was embalmed so quickly within the same day. Is this SOP?

Sorry for your loss and grief, OP.

Unfortunately there is no good legal recourse here as the Courts view the value of an individual solely in terms of the amount of income he/she generates annually. It stinks but this is how it is.

For instance if your father in law had died by neglect at say age 50 and his annual income was $200k in the best case scenario the Court would calculate $200k x 15 years (retirement age) to arrive at $3M. And then tack on estimated retirement income from 65 to 77 years

In addition the Court "might" award punitive damages.

But your father in law was 79 years old. It's likely his income was not great plus he has already exceeded the average life span of Americans. .

You probably ask, what about personal loss and emotional suffering due to neglect? Again, rarely is the Court interested solely in emotions and in your case the deceased was 79. Plus it seems from your story it would be difficult if not impossible to prove neglect.

This is a sad and tough situation. I've gone through it with 2 friends who lost their aged fathers to medical neglect.

Both went through hell bringing cases against 2 major hospitals. Ultimately after about 2 years of attorneys fees and legal bullshit tactics from attorneys representing the hospitals both friends settled.

They were offered a pittance that left them with only about $30k after paying their attorneys. All that hell for $30k.

I hope I never have to engage in this type of litigation. It's a dirty game and the big guy nearly always wins. And The Olds have next to no value in society.

there is no proof he ate the berries. no case.

oh yes, it's very sad, once you reach a certain age, they just do the bare minimum since they know you're gonna die soon anyways.

R30 and anyone in this age cohort or who has parents this age (and that's most of Datalounge now as the clock ticks on), check out "Being Mortal" by Atul Gawande.

He's a doctor who wrote compellingly in this book that doctors basically start writing patients off after age 50-- they can't get you out the door fast enough because it is much more complicated than dealing with a younger person, and they don't like it.

I can't recommend that book enough. He will tell you what you need to do to better your odds or the odds of your parents in the these situations. I checked out audiobook from my library's website and I re-listen every year or two as my parents get older.

Step one in the book, R30, would be would be to find your mom a geriatrician, a doctor who specializes in older adults.

So my other also had a ruptured intestine over the summer, amazingly when I was in town visiting her. The ER doctor said she had less than an hour to live. Emergency surgery and a three month recovery. Most often such a situation is caused by diverticulitis…it’s not caused by eating a certain food at a certain time. It’s a condition that deteriorates the intestines over time, Sorry for your lose 😞

OP, I go through similar phases when a loved one is seriously ill or dies. It seems to be a coping reaction for some of us, or maybe something denial-adjaicent.

A few years back when my dog developed kidney failure rather suddenly I started suspecting that a neighbor with whom I had a falling out a year before had tossed something over the fence to harm my dog. Once the delerium of grief had cleared, of course I realized that the odds of this happening versus the luck of the draw were extremely low.

When my dad was diagnosed with Parkinsons I think I was near manic searching for the statistics of false positives of things that mimic Parkinson's, although the test he was given is 99.5% accurate. I used to wake up in the middle of the night with these neurological terms looping in my mind, because all I was.reading at night was Parkinsons and neurological case studies and all that. I just did not believe it was Parkinsons. It took a good six months before I STARTED to accept it.

I could go on, but the brain does weird things in these situations.

A few years from now you will see that you had a beloved and probably wonderful person, who also happened to be a stubborn 80 year old man with 80 year old body parts that gave out -- probably due to bowel obstruction whether you see it now or not. Most of us don't just die in our sleep, even though gardeners should probably earn the right to go that peacefully.

Something will get every one of us in the end. I am glad he was able to go while he was independent and able-bodied-- at that age it's about all one could hope for, much better than wasting away for six months or six years.

Again thank you for all of your comments and listening. Yes I have friends to turn to as well. But sometimes anonymous people will tell you things you need to hear that your friends don't want to or know how to say to you in times like this. My husband is on the plane now back to PA to be with his mother. We live abroad so it is also a bit more complicated.

At this point, given the circumstance and his age, there is not much more than can be done. But the last case for the blackberries that I will make is this. It has been a hard year for us with my mother in law suffering a stroke due to covid earlier in the year. At that time however they both got all of their blood work and checkups done. My father in law checked out and was in very condition for a man his age - low blood pressure, no diseases he was taking medication for. He was physically active with gardening. No issues.

Full disclosure he bought the blackberries from Aldis. They were from Mexico and he ate them without washing them. I know. When this first started happening my husband gave him the third degree for doing something like that in this day in age. But the day after eating them he started experiencing shivers and fatigue. That lead to vomiting and uncontrollable diarrhea. He went to the doctor and they gave him something for the diarrhea and told him the only thing to really do was ride out what they thought might be food poisoning. It subsided a bit but started back up - the vomiting uncontrollably until he died yesterday early AM. He was sitting on the couch, out of it, and died on the living room floor trying to make it to the bathroom. That was that.

It's a long road ahead with everything that comes when one's parent dies and you are left with an elderly mother in your large childhood home and you live 6,000 miles away.

Yes, sad and difficult situation. We were living in Switzerland when my partner's mother died in San Francisco so I empathize and understand. Everything will be OK. 79 is a very good run. We all hope to die quickly and with dignity but usually this is not the case.

So sending you the best, hun.