Breakfast at Tiffany's - The Musical - What Went Wrong

That's surprisingly ungracious and seemingly out of character(I thought) for Chamberlain to say something like that.

It sure doesn't help when the book writer for a splashy New York musical comedy is Edward Albee.

And Merrick was choking on all that money he was swimming in from Hello, Dolly!

That's a mean thing for Chamberlain to say (you know how bitchy fags can be). MTM was a good actress. Just miscast as Holly, I'm sure.

Perhaps Joey Heatherton? Liza?

It’s not like Chamberlain ever brought much to the table as an actor (I remember his somewhat dull community theatre Hamlet on the Hallmark Hall of Fame), though he was prettier than MTM and probably would have been better casting as Holly than MTM. Moore was always earthbound and resolutely middle-class, whether as Laura, Mary, or Beth—and found considerable variety in that range. Chamberlain, handsome and moderately charming, was as wooden as Pinocchio in everything I saw him in—including The Thorn Birds.

[quote] Perhaps Joey Heatherton?

I had to think about that for awhile, but actually not a bad idea. Did she ever do Broadway?

I saw him in Night of the Iguana at Circle in the Square. Pretty mediocre. But Dorothy McGuire gave one of the all time great performances I have seen on stage.

[quote]As Richard Chamberlain said years later, "We made the mistake of thinking Mary Tyler Moore could do something other than say "Oh Rob!" or "Mr Grant!"

Link/source, OP? I hardly think she was the problem, although it was a thankless task for any actress to attempt to fill Audrey's pumps.

Chamberlain = TOO GAY

Mary should have done a musical of...

Buck never would have said that about MTM.

I saw Richard Chamberlain play Dr. Sloper in The Heiress at the Pasadena Playhouse about ten years ago. He was excellent; I was quite surprised. The period setting probably provided the proper context for any mannerisms or characteristics that might have seemed “gay” in his performance. Heather Tom was an execrable Catherine.

Their mistake was not including Mickey Rooney.

Where is the source for Chamberlain saying this? Though I can well believe he may have said it privately to friends, I can't imagine he would ever have said it for public consumption.

Not that he was wrong....

And not presenting Rooney in a show stopping oriental production number featuring a dim sum of tasty chorines.

[quote]Not that he was wrong....

Yes he was, r12. That production was going to flop no matter who played Holly. I think Mary's voice sounds strong enough for Broadway and I think it's safe to assume her dancing was. I think Mary could have succeeded admirably in a Broadway musical with a more suitable vehicle.

Miss Kellerman was in it.

The bigger they are...

Faith Prince was the problem, OP.

And she knows why.

When it was called "Holly Golightly

[quote]Perhaps Joey Heatherton?

I would have preferred Lola Heatherton.

Do you think they approached Audrey about doing this first?

It's an excellent score.

Merrick fucked up the show by bringing in Edward Albee to do a new book. He turned it into a weird meta exercise that no audience would accept in a big-ticket Broadway musical in 1966.

The title song is lovely and Mary does a good job with it (at 2:53 below):

OP is full of shit.

Chamberlain never said that about Mary.

The role of Holly needed a sparkling, insouciant ingenue… like Pia Zadora.

I never miss a Richard Chamberlain musical.

Chamberlain has done a few musicals, R24, including a Broadway revival of "The Sound of Music." Are you confusing him with Liv Ullmann?

According to Wikipedia, after Albee rewrote the book it came in at just under FOUR HOURS.

What the fuck were they thinking?

I never miss an Edward Albee musical.

Cat is uncredited on the Broadway Database.

LOCK ‘EM UP!

[bold]#Justice4Cat

Merrick might as well have had Samuel Beckett write the book to a musical comedy. It was probably done as an act of spite because Mary wouldn't sleep with him. He could afford to have a bomb at that point.

It's a DREADFUL SCORE. No one could have made this tripe into a hit.

It had to have been better than Seesaw.

^ WASN'T

[quote]r31 It's a DREADFUL SCORE. No one could have made this tripe into a hit.

I like this song. Reportedly the producers were scared that Sally Kellerman was stealing the show as Holly’s friend, so I don’t know if it was eventually cut.

Elaine Joyce might have delivered a note.

The title song had life.

MTM fantasizing Kellerman fired - -

It was in desperate need of a freewheeling patio number.

[quote]It was in desperate need of a freewheeling patio number.

Featuring Mr. Yunioshi and a chorus line of scantily-clad geishas.

Mary Tyler Less

If this was a hit maybe MTM would have been too busy to make the awful Thoroughly Modern Millie

[quote]Mary's voice sounds strong enough for Broadway

Same for my voice

[quote]If this was a hit maybe MTM would have been too busy to make the awful Thoroughly Modern Millie.

But it was a big hit! And still better than playing in a nun in an Elvis movie, with Elvis playing a priest.

^^ Er, playing a nun, that should be. ^^

The problem with the show is that Nobody had an idea of what story to tell on stage. To follow Capote's novella meant Holly was a pretty tacky tough broad who survived by wits and some street smarts, even though she was originally from down south as a hillbilly. The film changed her into Audrey Hepburn and gave her a sweet love story ending. The first script turned in to Merrick was by Nunnally Johnson and it made her pretty unsympathetic. Nunally was fired and Merrick brought in Abe Burrows, Boy Wonder of Superhits and GhostWriting Librettos. In MTM's autobiog, she says he spent a LOT of time talking about the good old days and that rehearsals started without him having a Second Act written yet. Lots of production numbers and MTM getting reviews that basically said she was miscast as both a sweet Holly (Boston) and tough as nails Holly (Philadelphia), She could sing and of course could act but could never get the right characterization down to make everyone happy. Eventually Merrick turned to Edward Albee - of ALL people - to rewrite the script. What he turned out was a story about a writer trying to write a novel about this fictional Holly Golightly....who appeared on stage As A Figment Of His Imagination, acting out what he was supposedly writing. He was real, she wasn't = audience confused when they expected "Moon River". I think Merrick probably went to every single librettist in the theatre scene to help and they all turned him down: Joseph Stein, Michael Stewart, Comden and Green, Neil Simon, Peter Stone, WHOever, and he ended up desperately seeking Edward Albee who had never written a musical before. Four previews in New York and then CLOSED.

[quote] MTM was a good actress.

Had she ever appeared on a stage before?

[quote] Mary's voice sounds strong enough for Broadway

I bet they were using microphones.

The problem was that the show was in trouble in Boston (critics hated it) and Merrick invited Diahann Carroll to come out to Boston for a week and see the show - see if she was interested in replacing MTM, and how she would improve the character. He liked what Carroll suggested, and made her an incredible offer to take the lead on Broadway. The press found out what was going on behind the scenes (some say it was Chamberlain who tipped them off) and the rumors started that Carroll was taking over the Broadway run. This caused MTM to be convinced she was being fired, and the morale sunk with the cast (who really liked MTM). MTM continued with lackluster performances to finish the Boston run, figuring she was done.

Carroll didn't want to be seen as the 'bad apple' in this mess, and ended up declining Merrick's offer. She made a public statement and asked the press to be kind to her friend, MTM - and let her have a fair chance on Broadway. The show went to B'way with MTM and the rest is history.

[quote] the awful Thoroughly Modern Millie

I thought that movie was adequate. By the thought of the skinny MTM, on stage with microphones to boost her unattractive voice, sounds like the epitome of inadequacy.

She's skinnier than Hepburn; how could these two stick figures make money as prostitutes?

R48, Mary wasn't so skinny in 1967.

Barbra was miked in Funny Girl, r46/r48 - Body mikes began in the '60s, but floor mikes have been used since the '30s.

TMM is terrific until it falls apart towards the end. The bluray is wonderful except for the fact that they inexplicably fucked up the soundtrack.

[quote] floor mikes have been used since the '30s.

R50 Do you mean microphones on a stand?

No, r52.

What? Microphones in the floor?

Foot mics were placed near the footlights, r54.

Also, r54, there are overhead mics.

Sally & Faith

[quote]TMM is terrific until it falls apart towards the end.

The Music Man or Thoroughly Modern Millie?

What does MTM have to do with The Music Man, r58?

R44 Dick said Albee's version was "a dark musical".

I bet it wasn't as dark as La Sondheim's.

Using a live cat must have had its challenges.

MTM was always best when part of an ensemble. See her two hit sitcoms. Pretty and charming under the right circumstances, there was something not entirely likable about her. Her getting outed as a Limbaugh fan was no surprise.

[quote] The problem with the show is that Nobody had an idea of what story to tell on stage. To follow Capote's novella …Holly was a pretty tacky tough broad

I bet that was at the heart of the problem.

How could a miscast bourgeois stick-figure named Mary Tyler play a tacky tough broad?

I wish some enterprising man would do the Edward Albee version for TV.

[quote] there was something not entirely likable about her.

Her mouth was like a lipless version of Cameron Diaz's mouth.

Merrick was insane to hire two people who may have appeared pretty on TV but were hopeless on stage.

As has been pointed out, r65, Chamberlain is a respected stage actor.

[quote]MTM was always best when part of an ensemble

Ted Knight was part of an ensemble, r62, Mary was the *star* of her show.

To add, r65, Mary later acquitted herself quite nicely on stage.

Oh R66!

Wiki lists her production company's plays and ——

[quote] Moore appeared in previews of the Neil Simon play 'Rose's Dilemma' at the off-Broadway Manhattan Theatre Club in December 2003 but quit the production after receiving a critical letter from Simon instructing her to "learn your lines or get out of my play".

She was also given a Special Tony for Who's Life..., r68, what's your point?

It seems the surname "Golightly" is a real name from Ireland.

I wonder if Capote used it as a symbolic verb because another of Capote's characters has the surname 'Trawler'.

What's in a name? What if Sally Bowles had been Sally Platters?

Anyone who has read Truman Capote's novella can instantly see that it has no plot. It's not a story -just a series of vignettes that illustrate the narrator's run-ins with Holly. Every bit of the story was made up for the film, and Merrick had the rights to the book, not the film. Whatever accomplishments Moore and Chamberlain achieved onstage later in their careers, at the time of Breakfast at Tiffany's they were both neophytes -TV names with no stage cred.

Albee's book was too avant-garde for Broadway. Burrows' book was too old-fashioned. The reason no one would take on the rewrite was that everyone could see that the whole project was doomed to failure. No one could compete with Capote's brilliant writing or the memory of Audrey in the film. Why even try?

Capote says Holly went through life lightly whereas the character named Rusty trawled through life.

Evelyn Waugh had one of his heroes in 'Brideshead' ride through life while the other flew through it.

I wonder if George Bernard Shaw was suggesting that the main character in his play 'Pygmalion' did little with their life?

In Cold Blood would have been a real toe-tapper!

Dan Sullivan in The New York Times saw the final preview performance and noted that while Mary and Richard were troupers neither was ready for a Broadway musical. Their voices were small, their movements uncommanding. Whatever sparkle was left in the role of Holly after all those rewrites was missed by Mary and the unnecessary complexities of Richard's role escaped him.

It's like what would Applause have been like if they'd had the rights to All About Eve?

R72 is why I love the DL

Mary writes about how at one of the previews the audience yelled back at the actors. in one scene Richard saw Mary in a hospital bed and asked, "Where did I go wrong?" and someone yelled out "When you left Dr. Kildare!"

They needed Neil Simon to do the book like he did with Sweet Charity and Promises Promises.

People wanted the movie.

Poor Truman didn't have much luck on Broadway.

[quote]I had to think about that for awhile, but actually not a bad idea. Did she ever do Broadway?

There Was a Little Girl

The Sound of Music

[quote]I wonder if Capote used it as a symbolic verb because another of Capote's characters has the surname 'Trawler'.

Why omit his first name? The character was named Rusty Trawler, which is even less subtle.

^ I've forgotten what "Rusty Trawler" does in the story.

[quote]I've forgotten what "Rusty Trawler" does in the story.

In Capote's story, Rusty is a Nazi sympathizer who has been seeing Holly. Everyone thinks they’ll probably get married. Holly says that she would marry Rusty only because he's rich and that the marriage wouldn’t be real, anyway, because Rusty is homosexual. Rusty's wealth came from his parents, who died when Rusty was very young. His father was killed by an anarchist, causing his mother to die of shock.

[quote] I wonder if George Bernard Shaw was suggesting that the main character in his play 'Pygmalion' did little with their life?

R73 I’ve always thought Shaw chose the name “Doolittle” as a slam to Elisa’s father Alfred, whose main goal in life seemed to be to do as little as possible.

^^ Eliza, not Elisa. That’s what happens when a scientist does literary analysis.

[quote]It seems the surname "Golightly" is a real name from Ireland.

It's real alright

[quote] It seems the surname "Golightly" is a real name

Well, my friends and I had always thought that Audrey was playing a character called 'Holly Gollighty'.

The misogynistic spin here that MTM was some talentless dip that magically became a star with zero talent is completely stupid and embarrassing. MTM is a part of the fabric of the growing up of tv in America. She was an international star. She’s one of the most beloved start Hollywood has ever produced. She headed several unforgettable shows throughout her lifetime. She gave a searing and brilliant performance in Ordinary People that arguably should have won the Oscar and is objectively the most memorable. Does anyone talk about Coal Miner’s Daughter now or Resurrection for that matter? No, they don’t. And all this “oh, she was directed and edited to get that performance” is nonsense. She’s incredible every time she’s on screen in that movie. That’s not direction or editing. It’s her. Period.

So spare me your misogynistic stupidity.

Or your maryogynist stupidity

Richard Chamberlain theatre credits.

I saw Heather Tom in The Heiress and thought she was great.

House of Flowers

Lovely interview with Diahann but she doesn't go until all the turmoil on the show. I wonder why she's just so complimentary and tight-lipped here?

Carroll was a class act. Though she probably relished in the idea of opening in a Broadway musical after her star turn in HoF, she had no interest in making a bad experience worse for her friend, MTM. Would she have 'saved the show' by stepping into the role of Holly ? Possibly - but the show was already 'tarnished' with bad word of mouth for MTM.

[quote]Poor Truman didn't have much luck on Broadway.

I'm sure "In Cold Blood: The Musical" would have been a triumph.

She also had No Strings behind her, r96.

Such a catchy tune...

A solo by Moore of "My Funny Mr. Yunioshi" lamenting the intricate relationship she has with her Oriental upstairs neighbor, could've done wonders.

^^ i'd like to see that. Truman sings!

Any proof Richard Chamberlain said such crass things about MTM?

[quote] Would she have 'saved the show' by stepping into the role of Holly ? Possibly - but the show was already 'tarnished' with bad word of mouth for MTM.

Seriously? Nobody could have saved that piece of crap.

Not yet, r102, and I wouldn't hold my breath.

Richard Chamberlain was HAF so I don't believe he trashed MTM.

R90 So spare me your maryophilia.

RC might have commented on the show in his memoir Shattered Love but the bastard provided no index.

R107 Did Dick present his memoir in chronological order?

Memoirs don't have indexes- autobiographies do.

Mary's has an index.

Buck would never have written a book without an index.

[quote] Mary's has an index.

I've been told that Mary is "one of the most beloved stars Hollywood has ever produced".

Ever!

Mary is/was pretty beloved, r112. Well, make that Laura Petrie and Mary Richards.

Both title songs are solid ("Holly Golightly" and "Breakfast at Tiffany's"), and "Same Mistakes" linked above is a better, if generic, 11 o'clocker than the song she had in that spot before. "Ciao Compare" is fine, Ethan Mordden said it would have become a standard had the show survived. "You've Never Kissed Her" is a bit bossy but a decent ballad.

The "Travelin'" song and Sally Kellerman's replacement song "Quiet Coffee" work, as does "Nothing is New in New York."

But the score really falls down in the generic material for extraneous characters and the side trips that just make the story more anecdotal. The lyrics in particular are not Broadway level at times.

The show has resurfaced only once in (relatively) recent days, AFAIK. The Lost Musicals series in London was able to do a staged reading presentation of it.

Anyway, to the point above: yes, there's some substandard material in the score, but some quality material too, and there are certainly hit shows that have gotten by on less.

Faith Prince is a bit firm voiced on that studio recording, but she sings it all well. The men's material not being divided strictly along character lines makes it hard to tell sometimes what is meant for which character, but John Schneider and Hal Linden are certainly capable.

[quote] a bit firm voiced

LOL

Some of the song are pretty good, especially as rendered by the lovely Ms. Cantrell. This song is hobbled by a bad lyric ("If you're donut is sweet . . . ") but has a haunting melody. Cantrell also recorded I've Got a Penny, another pleasant one. The rest of the score is substandard Bob Merrill, which accounts for about 50% of his work.

[quote]Perhaps Joey Heatherton?

Yes, casting a tacky, minimally talented go-go girl as Holly surely would have made this show the classic it never got to be.

But Holly was redneck trash.

[quote]But Holly was redneck trash.

So you suggest casting somebody tacky and talent-free to play her? That makes no sense.

This production never stood a chance no matter who was in it.

MTM was a really bad choice and she should have known how awful it was. And then it got worse.

Mary, to her credit, took a chance. I still love her.

Mutate or perish.

[quote], there was something not entirely likable about her. Her getting outed as a Limbaugh fan was no surprise.

Wow that is convoluted logic .

[quote] She’s one of the most beloved start Hollywood has ever produced.

She was so beloved no one watched anything she did after 1981

She was good in Thoroughly Modern Millie, but Julie was great so...

r123

Translation: Julie carried her. Julie carried Dick Van Dyke and his racist accent too

Yes dear, R124.

[quote] Holly was a pretty tacky tough broad

She was a prostitute.

Julie gets a lot of flack but she really was a dynamo.

Mary also writes that Edward Albee was overheard to say I hate the musical form when he first appeared to work on the show. Then why agree to do it, Eddy?

Her name was Hawry Gowrightwee...

[quote]She was so beloved no one watched anything she did after 1981

But we've never *stopped* watching her as Laura Petrie and Mary Richards, r122.

[quote]Julie gets a lot of flack but she really was a dynamo.

Who gives her flack? She's wonderful.

[quote]But we've never *stopped* watching her as Laura Petrie and Mary Richards

Lyle and Erik never stopped watching their parents as they were pummelling them.

RC is quoted in the Barbara Siegel book on him. "Mary knew the truth and would cry between scenes... the show flopped and the sound of the crash could have been heard in Texas...Mary gave a closing-night party at her place. We were all very manic - laughing and singing a lot. After the party I walked by the theatre to see my name on the marquee one more time before they took it down. When I saw I started to cry and I wept most of the night."

Doing a bad cockney accent is racist? Somebody is very very desperate. And I bet I know who it is.

R133 Somebody is very very desperate

[quote]Doing a bad cockney accent is racist?

Yes, imagine being white and talking in African-American vernacular. He was an American mocking an English minority.

[quote]Lyle and Erik never stopped watching their parents as they were pummelling them.

Do you have a point somewhere in that, r131?

The only racism I know of is in Bedknobs and Broomsticks.

[quote]After the party I walked by the theatre to see my name on the marquee one more time before they took it down. When I saw I started to cry and I wept most of the night."

MARY!

Anything can be a musical, these days.

An unofficial BRIDGERTON musical, written and performed on TikTok, won a Grammy this year.

R69, R136

[quote] what's your point?

[quote] Do you have a point…?

MTM also tried to get the role of Norma Desmond in the Canadian production of Andrew Lloyd Webber's musical "Sunset Boulevard" back in 1995, but that time Diahann Carroll didn't play too nicely.

"Bitch! You get out of this theater ! This role is mine, mine, mine ! Do you want to close this production down like you did 'Breakfast At Tiffany's ??" she asked. "You're an embarrassment to musical theater, you hussy !"

MTM broke down in tears, turned on her high heel, and left the building.

I had also read about Diahann Carroll being asked to replace MTM. Tammy Grimes' name also floated around. If it was going to be attempted as a musical, they should have gotten the rights to the FILM, not the novella. Although Capote wasn't found of the film. People didn't want to hear Laura Petrie say things like "I've lost my goddamn key!" or lose a baby after getting punched in the stomach by a female officer. (Don't ask....or maybe ask Albee, if he were still alive). Richard Chamberlain came off okay but, let's face it, the whole story/film/musical is all about Holly. There are some really good songs in the show as mentioned above but also songs that act as filler. Sally Kellerman played 'Mag', a hooker friend of Holly's and got to sing a few songs in the show as well.

Faith Prince on the studio recording is a disastrous choice as Holly.

I couldn't disagree more, R143. I thought she nailed every number vocally. Would I ever cast her as Holly? No. But for an album, she was great.

Was Dionne Warwick ever considered for the role? She would have been the right age and type for Holly. Did Dionne ever do Broadway? It seems like a logical move for her.

Don't you remember Mag Wildwood in the movie, r142?

[quote]R42 But it was a big hit! And still better than playing in a nun in an Elvis movie, with Elvis playing a priest. —Whose idea was that?

Isn’t she in an awful movie with an animated parrot or something, too?

Posted above, r147, and it was a toucan.

[quote]R47 Diahann Carroll didn't want to be seen as the 'bad apple' in this mess, and ended up declining Merrick's offer. She made a public statement and asked the press to be kind to her friend, MTM

Some friend. Sneaking into out of town tryouts to study the role, negotiating a deal…!

Dominique Deveraux has her handprints all OVER this!!

Chamberlain glides through "Breakfast at Tiffany's" in two pages in his memoir. He says the reviews in Philadelphia were mixed, but "I was oblivious and having a ball. When we played another month in Boston amid constant script and song changes, even I began to see dark problems looming." By the New York previews, audiences "shouted rude remarks and walked out in droves." He makes no rude remarks about Moore.

R148 Even George Firth (gay) and Dom DeLuise (likely gay), who were both very funny actors, couldn't save "What's So Bad About Feeling Good?" Mary appears to be doing a screwball comedy version of Laura Petrie as Holly Golightly.

Get this quote from George Seaton, the movie's writer and producer: "The sophisticated humor of 20 years ago, the Noel Coward type of thing is not today. Not now." Imagine having the chutzpah to mention that movie in the same sentence as Coward's comedies. If Seaton thought his movie was an antidote for the assassinations and riots of 1968, he had another thing coming.

I think one of the luckiest things that ever happened to MTM was that early test audiences weren’t enthusiastic about the initial version(s) of the first episode of The MTM Show. Mary's writers and producers had the talent (and ability to tone down their egos) to fix the problems by airtime, which saved the show.

The linked video shows a pre-final version of Mary’s interview with Mr. Grant in the first episode. The dialog is at least 95% the same as the final version, but the scene was filmed with one camera without an audience and canned laughter was added. The acting and timing is nowhere near as funny as the final, live performance filmed with multiple cameras and an audience. Given the proper vehicle and behind the scenes support, MTM could shine.

[R145] Warwick is currently reprising her Broadway role on the national tour of "Tina! The Musical" She does an incredible performance as Tina Turner, and ends the show by looking at the audience and saying, "I got that little hussy's number..."

MTM made a comeback on Broadway in 1986 in the AR Gurney comedy SWEET SUE opposite Lynn Redgrave, which is remembered today (if at all) more for the nudity of the 2 young male actors Barry Tubb and John Linton. Apparently, MTM and Lynn weren't on speaking terms (offstage) by the time the show closed prematurely a few months after opening.

Does MTM mention it in her memoir?

If you look for it, you can find plenty of people who say MTM, offstage, could be a tough customer. Given her level of success, that's totally unsurprising.

The filmmaker who did the Rose Marie documentary a few years back said this at a talkback in New York. She was apparently, in private, more like the mom in Ordinary People than like Laura Petrie. Like most celebs, she could affect affability when she needed to.

Did anyone here see her in Rose's Dilemma? Saw it after she left, and the dilemma turned out to be that Rose was trapped in a so-so play, with the ghost of greater Neil Simon works still lingering in the memory.

r154, I also saw Rose's Dilemma after MTM's departure (actually, I think she was gone before previews began) and remember virtually NOTHING about the production. Couldn't imagine back then what attracted MTM to do it, except it was a new Neil Simon play so perhaps she expected improved rewrites. But then, it sounded like she couldn't keep up with the rewrites, causing Neil Simon to write that rude missive to her, delivered by his then wife Elaine Joyce. A sad unnecessary mess all around.

R154 Please don’t give me the mental image that MTM was really more like Beth than Laura.

Just looked it up, R155. Apparently she did previews from Nov 20 - Dec 3. The letter was delivered before a matinee that day, and she left.

[quote]more for the nudity of the 2 young male actors Barry Tubb and John Linton

Armand wasn't available?

Miss Chamberlain's old ass is still among the living!

R156 You must be new here

I had a friend who interned on the production of "Rose's Dilemma". I recall back then how frightened she would be going to work those days - telling me how demeaning MTM was to the cast and crew. All they wanted to do was help MTM give her best performance, and she wouldn't have it. They were quite happy when she was fired.

Mary was 65, r161. I assume her eventual dementia was in very early stages making it difficult to learn lines.

Yes Mary writes about Sweet Sue in her book. Lynn Redgrave replaced Maria Tucci at the Williamstown Playhouse after the backers decided they needed two name actresses. Mary says Lyn was great but as the rehearsals continued her comic acting became broader and Mary found herself looking in the face of someone from another play. Her mugging got laughs at some of Mary's moments! Their divergent styles did not make magic happen with Mary having to relearn how to play well with others. They got decent reviews and ran for 164 performances which was just long enough to sustain Mary's enjoyment.

[quote]MTM made a comeback on Broadway in 1986 in the AR Gurney comedy SWEET SUE opposite Lynn Redgrave, which is remembered today (if at all) more for the nudity of the 2 young male actors Barry Tubb and John Linton.

I reviewed it in Boston on press night. The nudity of the two young men is about the only thing I remember from it, aside from the gimmick of Moore and Redgrave playing different aspects of the same character. The two young men were seen from the back only in the play's opening, and they were seated on stools. Does a failed play that closed quickly qualify as a "comeback"?

So you only saw the top of the crack of their asses? That's like Doubles where they had the men cover as much of themselves as possible with anything they could find and only be nude while sitting down with their backs to the audience. That's not nudity. Of course Austin Pendleton was seen briefly full frontal but being that was something that nobody in the world wanted to see I don't count that either. I was interested in going back to see it again when Charles Repole took the part but the play was such a yawn it hardly seemed worth the effort.

SWEET SUE was AR ("Pete") Gurney's best play and one of the few in which he allowed his latent homosexual yearnings, as seen through the character played by MTM, some expression. I loved it, thought it was actually very underrated.

[quote]R163 Mary found herself looking in the face of someone from another play. Redgrave’s mugging got laughs at some of Mary's moments!

Oh boy… stand back!

I know how Mary felt!

Well, IIRC Lynn played Mary's uncensored alter ego, expressing all the thoughts/feelings that Mary's character was too inhibited to express herself. So, naturally, Lynn had most of the funny lines.

IMHO, this rather harsh caricature seems like an accurate representation of MTM's face.

Rob's wasn't any more flattering, r170.

A friend of mine did a reading with MTM in the 90s and said it was cool she had her hair pulled back. She wasn’t ashamed of the facelift scars behind her ears.

I guess that’s something.

[quote] after Albee rewrote the book it came in at just under FOUR HOURS. What the fuck were they thinking?

No worse than when Kander and Ebb did a musical version of The Lady from Dubuque. Who knew Sada Thompson couldn't sing and dance?

That Hirschfield caricature is fucking brilliant.

I would sue Hirschfeld for his accuracy.

I would also sue R171.

[quote]As Richard Chamberlain said years later, "We made the mistake of thinking Mary Tyler Moore could do something other than say "Oh Rob!" or "Mr Grant!"

It's really important to try and hurt me isn't it?

Mary and Julie, Mary and Lynn, Lynn and Julie

[quote] the nudity of the 2 young male actors Barry Tubb and John Linton.

Oh, I had the hots for Tubb back in the early 80s as a gayling. I still remember his butt shot on Bay City Blues. Funny, he seems to have never married and his only publicized romance was with, ahem, Kelly McGinnis.

R178 Lynn is definitely 'hoofing' through that rendition.

[quote]Who knew Sada Thompson couldn't sing and dance

She was in the ensemble of Juno...

Diahann Carroll: "Bitch! You get out of this theater! This role is mine, mine, mine! Do you want to close this production down like you did 'Breakfast At Tiffany's?" she asked. "You're an embarrassment to musical theater, you hussy!"

MTM: Maybe this is how they sit around and talk at the hospital, but we're not at the hospital.

She didn't have Julie's gymnastic skills, r180.

It seems more likely that Neil Simon, at age 76, was suffering from some form of dementia (or writer's block) by the time of "Rose's Dilemma" in 2003.

Simon hadn't had a theatrical hit since "Proposals" in 1997, and Rose's Dilemma was his final play, which followed the the dismal failure of Simon's "45 Seconds from Broadway" in 2001.

Simon was under tremendous pressure and spread his misery throughout the company of "Rose's Dilemma" with his unhappiness and his constant rewrites.

On the day of Simon's notoriously scathing letter to MTM, Simon had changed the dialog so many times, all of the the actors, including MTM, were rehearsing with ear buds, so they could be prompted on Simon's latest rewrites.

Simon's fourth wife, the ever-ambitious and ruthless Elaine Joyce, was said to have also contributed to the toxic environment on that production. And Joyce seemed eager to deliver Simon's angry letter to MTM, rather than to try to de-escalate the tension.

"Rose's Dilemma", which finally opened without MTM, ran briefly in Los Angeles and later Off-Broadway, but it soon closed after dismal reviews.

MTM could be cold and aloof, but the whole debacle is far more unflattering to Neil Simon and Elaine Joyce than to MTM.

You could say a lot of things about MTM, but she was never known to be unprepared or unprofessional in her work.

[quote]R184 Simon's fourth wife, the ever-ambitious and ruthless Elaine Joyce, was said to have also contributed to the toxic environment on that production. And Joyce seemed eager to deliver Simon's angry letter to MTM, rather than to try to de-escalate the tension.

I bet she was Mary’s understudy.

I think Rose's Dilemma was also the first time a Neil Simon play couldn't get a Broadway production, hence the "tryout" at the non-profit Manhattan Theatre Club. This was before MTC owned a Broadway theater.

I don't think Neil Simon will be remembered in the future with much more respect or love than whoever wrote Arsenic & Old Lace, Life With Father or Abie's Irish Rose.

Also, was there a wife between Marsha Mason and Elaine Joyce? Wasn't Simon only married 3 times?

This is a FAR more entertaining thread with theatre gossip than the Theatre Gossip Threads.

Shhhhh. Keep the loons out!

Dear R186, I like the irony in your second paragraph; we remember particular playwrights with respect or love even if we don't remember their names.

Elaine was married to television producer John Levoff in between Van and Simon.

There was a wife before Marsha Mason who was there for him in his early successful years who died of cancer.

Sounds like play fodder to me, r190.

Anybody see...?

[quote]Oh, I had the hots for Tubb back in the early 80s as a gayling. I still remember his butt shot on Bay City Blues. Funny, he seems to have never married and his only publicized romance was with, ahem, Kelly McGinnis.

I remember, as a gayling, seeing Barry Tubb as the gay son of Marlo Thomas and Martin Sheen in the 1985 TV movie "Consenting Adult."

Neil Simon's Spouses:

Joan Baim ​ ​(m. 1953; died 1973)​ Marsha Mason ​ ​(m. 1973; div. 1983)​ Diane Lander ​ ​(m. 1987; div. 1988)​ ​ ​(m. 1990; div. 1998)​ Elaine Joyce ​ ​(m. 1999)

How did I miss out on that action?

How did I miss out on that action?

I saw Mary Tyler Moore in Who’s life is it Anyway, and I recall that she was very good and so was the play.

So...anybody see the non-musical version?

^ that picture doesn't look like Capote's "tacky tough broad" viz R44.

[quote]So...anybody see the non-musical version?

Which was even more pointless than the musical version.

[quote]Breakfast at Tiffany's - The Musical - What Went Wrong

It didn't have Mickey Rooney.

[quote]Translation: Julie carried her. Julie carried Dick Van Dyke and his racist accent too

R124 His accent was racist?

Totally agree with [184], that show's failure was not on MTM but on NS. Imagine sending that nasty note backstage Before A Performance. MTM read it and walked right out. Good for her. I think Neil knew his big time on Broadway was coming to an end since most of his later plays didn't run very long. The "Eugene" Trilogy worked well but everything else didn't.

[quote]The "Eugene" Trilogy worked well but everything else didn't.

Including the Eugene trilogy when they tried to revive it, r202.

[quote]She gave a searing and brilliant performance in Ordinary People that arguably should have won the Oscar and is objectively the most memorable. Does anyone talk about Coal Miner’s Daughter now

Well I have no idea if people "talk about" Coal Miner's Daughter now but Sissy Spacek gave a great performance in it, and carried the entire film because she played the title role, while Mary was upstaged by Tim Hutton. But I don't think a performance ought to judged based on how many old gay people on internet forums talk about it.

Pictures from Williamstown production of Sweet Sue

Steven Culp who's seen in the Williamstown photos of Sweet Sue was actually a last minute replacement for soap opera hunk Robert Tyler who did not please Mary (onstage). Steven (son of actor Robert Culp) was ultimately deemed too old to play a college boy and did not make the cut to Broadway and was replaced John K. Linton, who seems to have disappeared after the Broadway closing of Sweet Sue.

I was an apprentice there that fabulous summer.

R204 The debate about MTM vs SIssy for the Oscar has been on here on DL probably since the day DL debuted. Second only to Bette vs Sally.

If there was ever a great argument for a second tie (after Hepburn vs Streisasnd), this might have been it. Hey OP - how 'bout a poll?

[quote]The debate about MTM vs SIssy for the Oscar has been on here on DL probably since the day DL debuted. Second only to Bette vs Sally.

Bette Davis vs. Sally Struthers?

^^ No. Sally Kirkland

But I don't think a performance ought to judged based on how many old gay people on internet forums talk about it.

Let's face it who else gives a fuck?

R206, Steven Culp isn't related to Robert Culp.

R208 I have no idea what the Bette vs Sally debate is. Bette Davis?

R210 The people in the industry who voted for it, originally.

R210 Generally, I don't get the point of re-litigating Oscar wins or losses. It's just an award given at the time buy a large group of industry people, and should mean just that. It doesn't literally mean the whole world thought this was the greatest performance, film, job of direction. whatever. It only means more than other awards, to the public, because the Oscars themselves, and the film industry, have hyped it up to be a lot more than it is (or used to be, originally).

The whole point R214 is that it's an on-going conversation. The whole point of awards shows is the on-going conversation around it from beginning to end and after. It's called promotion.

Huh, Steven Culp being the son of Robert Culp was definitely the gossip that summer at Williamstown, r211, but doing a quick google search tells me you're right. If only we had the internet back in 1986.

The post-Oscar chat can be fascinating in retrospect (or do I mean hindsight?), in analyzing what might have been going on that year to create those wins. Clearly, it was often not just about talent.

r4 Physically, yes, but I don’t think Heatherton had the discipline for Broadway, plus she was definitely looked down upon by the Broadway community. She was also doing Vegas at the time and was making easy money and enjoying the lifestyle that came with the Strip.

Joey was even looked down upon by the Hullabaloo Dancers.

[quote]IMHO, this rather harsh caricature seems like an accurate representation of MTM's face.

R170, it's an HONOR to be caricatured by Al Hirschfeld.

R215 I'm talking about people still talking about how MTM didn't win in 1980 (over 40 years ago - but germane to this thread) Jack Nicholson didn't win in 1974, or Judy Garland in 1954., for ex. People are obsessed by this stuff, now. much more than they ever used to be. The Oscars have been around a lot longer, I guess, and have taken on this almost mythic or religious significance to some people nowadays.

[quote]Huh, Steven Culp being the son of Robert Culp was definitely the gossip that summer at Williamstown, [R211], but doing a quick google search tells me you're right. If only we had the internet back in 1986.

He was the son of Marty and Bobbi Mohan Culp.

Not THE Marty Culp??? Wow.

[quote]I'm talking about people still talking about how MTM didn't win in 1980 (over 40 years ago - but germane to this thread) Jack Nicholson didn't win in 1974, or Judy Garland in 1954., for ex. People are obsessed by this stuff, now. much more than they ever used to be. The Oscars have been around a lot longer, I guess, and have taken on this almost mythic or religious significance to some people nowadays.

I think these conversations are more popular now than ever before because all these movies are now at our fingertips - from streaming, to DVDs. So people see these films with a new set of eyes from 40, 50 or 60 years ago.

Recently, I rewatched 'Ordinary People' on DVD - first time rewatching it since seeing it in the theater when I was 17. At the age of 50+ I saw it with a new set of eyes and a lifetime of experience - and realized what a powerful movie it was (at 17 I recall being bored to tears, but back then my friends and I used to go and see all the Oscar-nominated movies). In retrospect, MTM did deserve the Oscar.

Likewise, I've always been in the Streisand camp that she was 'robbed' of the Oscar for 'The Way We Were' in 1974. However, after finally re-watching 'A Touch of Class' streaming on one of the movie channels, I realize Glenda Jackson was so much better in her role - and she deserved the Oscar over Streisand.

R2`12 - I assume the Bette and Sally debate is over Bette Midler losing the Oscar to Sally Field.

Then there's the Diana Ross / Liza Minnelli debate from 1972.

R224 = the Glenda Jackson troll

Those two roles cannot be compared. Streisand WAS robbed.

I've just started reading Sally Kellerman's memoir. She's full of praise for MTM, saying that she was incredibly hard working. Kellerman took a role in the show on the understanding that she would go on for MTM in he absence, eventually taking over the role in the show's second year, which of course never came.

*in her absence

They should have replaced MTM with George Maharis.

He was doing Barefoot in the Park, r230...

R231 Maharis calls himself a 'cat' and 'Buzz'.

Buck would never call himself a cat.

I'm so glad that 56 years later, we're finally unpacking this.

Did anyone see the Mother of Dragons version? She would seem to be way too short for all of those gestures.

Honestly other than elderly gays who gives a shit who won the best actress Oscar 40 or even 70 years ago?

[quote]Honestly other than elderly gays who gives a shit who won the best actress Oscar 40 or even 70 years ago?

People who are interested in film history, r236.

[quote]R233 Buck would never call himself a cat.

Excuse me… excuse me! I feel this is a matter requiring intervention.

In Beth-Speak it’s properly, “Buck never would have CALLED himself a cat!”

[quote]I'm still prostrate with grief that Audrey wasn't even nominated in '64.

Yeah, and I've still got a prostate.

Well, R239, I'm more concerned that in today's dog-killing thread someone uses a sentence with THREE verbs in it.

[quote]r218 I don’t think Heatherton had the discipline for Broadway

Hey! The little tramp understudied Liesl AND Louisa in the original Sound of Music, so don’t besmirch her professionalism! She was also in something that closed within weeks called There was a Little Girl.

Note:

[italic] During this production's pre-Broadway tryout at Boston's Colonial Theatre, actor Louis Jean Heydt died during a performance. He performed his first scene, then collapsed backstage soon afterward. Understudy William Adler finished the performance in his role. [/italic]

I guess he sensed it was going to bomb.

I wonder how Audrey, ensconced in Switzerland, took the news of this Broadway failure?

Freddy Raphael visited the Switzerland house and noted her relationship with husband "Melchior" had become very sour.

R224 People think Streisand deserved an Oscar for that tripe?

^ Jewish septuagenarians thought Streisand deserved an Oscar for that tripe.

Was Capote still alive at the time of this fiasco ! ?

Yes, r245. 1966 was the same year that In Cold Blood was published.

Truman Capote lived for at least 20 years after this.

Oh yes straight people still care Garland didn't win the Oscar for A Star is Born. And lost it to pretty Miss Cardboard Who Couldn't Act Her Way Out of a Paper Bag of 1954.

Miss Cardboard was a useless clothes horse.

So, r248, we shouldn't care because straight people don't?

Those straight people were mere mitigating circumstances.

In 1966 Sally Kellerman hadn't yet done MASH. Was she known for anything on Broadway or film before that?

She did a That Girl...

Joey Heatherton was in the OBC of Sound of Music. She played a nun and understudied Liesel and Louisa.

Joey Heatherton did summer stock too. She was in TAKE ME ALONG with Dan Dailey and Alice Ghostley.

Joey Heatherton as a nun...

Forget Joey Heatherton, Miss Ann-Margret might have made Holly Golightly work on stage.

Joey and Gene.

^^ this makes the insufferable Gene Kelly look like a child molester working a park.

Sally did an Outer Limits, which got her to the William Morris agency. The agency told her manager that David Merrick was only seeing stars for the leads in Breakfast At Tiffany's. Her manager threw a fit and the Morris agency arranged for a meeting with Merrick. Merrick told Sally that if MTM turned down the offer of the lead, Sally could then audition for the part. Sally's pets, a cat and a dog, also attended the meeting. Merrick thought that Sally pretended her dog was named Holly, though Sally claimed that she didn't.

Chita didn't have a face for the screen, did she.

Thank you for posting that R35. It hit me like a sucker punch to see a NYC that no longer exists. It's now a dystopian post Covid city of unneeded bike lanes, unmoving traffic and every building covered in scaffolding, even Tiffany's. I actually started to cry a bit with nostalgia. Thank you Bill Deblassio for your eight years of destruction and thank you Eric Ryan for continuing the legacy "Get Stuff Done" my ass!

r245 has apparently never heard of Lionel Twain.

[quote]Maharis calls himself a 'cat' and 'Buzz'.

'Buzz' is the name of his character in his most famous role. ("Route 66.")

I wonder if Maharis was catting around the washrooms of Manhattan at this time.

And how did he catch that hepatitis he mentions at R231?

R259 You should see Marjorie Morningstar.

Dancing Mary

Why isn't that show listed on IMDb?

I don't know, r268. It was on the Danny Kaye Show.

Ok. Danny Kaye October 14, 1964. What is the Kurt Weill music mixed in with Ten Cents a Dance?

MTM is kind of a cold performer- which is why Ordinary People shouldn’t have been seen as that much of a stretch for her.

In other news, I’ve never seen her in this sob story, but someday:

There was a recent thread about that movie. Also Mary writes about it in her memoir. The movie, that is, not the thread.

Listening to sultry Joey sing in French almost got me hard.

Isn't that music from Threepenny?

Did any of you old whores see the Emilia Clarke play version of Breakfast? I saw a making of on the English production, and it read very shouty and awful. What was the NY production like?

NYT: "Ms. Clarke comes across as an under-age debutante trying very, very hard to pass for a sophisticated grown-up. This makes Holly’s whimsy go soggy. "

[quote]Forget Joey Heatherton, Miss Ann-Margret might have made Holly Golightly work on stage.

Speaking of, the cast of a new Christmas movie on the Hallmark Channel premiering Sunday, "A Holiday Spectacular," includes Ann-Margret and Eve Plumb. It centers around the Rockettes, but I don't think A-M will be doing any dancing.

Too bad Ann Margaret never did broadway. I know she was offered Sugar and a chance to replace Liza in The Act but what a great Roxie Hart she would have been.

Ann-Margret really wanted Cassie in the movie of "A Chorus Line."

That disastrous stage version of BaT with Emilia Clarke had such a short run, very few people saw it.

Breakfast at Tiffany's and Lolita continue to defy stage adaptations, be they musicals or plays.

Well if they keep trying they might turn into another Pygmalion.

R290 = 17 previews and 38 performances.

Kellerman obviously would have been better as Holly - maybe not perfect, idk, but you need someone offbeat and quirky. Audrey H put that across. Marty Tyler Moore was like a high school Englsih teacher, or yes, a suburban housewife. I can't see Ann-Marget in it. she never registered as an offbeat personality. Maybe Elizabeth Ashley, Could she sing? Or Paula Prentiss.

*Mary

A young Liz Ashley would have been perfect in a straight play version. Exactly the right type after her Barefoot in the Park days.

r283, that's about a month of performances, previews and all. Disastrously short run!

Elizabeth Ashley sings.

R288 You made me click on that!

One of the most surprising and ultimately touching things in the movie was when you find out Holly was born and raised in Appalachia or someplace like that, a rural place, in poverty, that she totally reinvented herself into this surface sophisticate. I can't picture MTM playing that (if it was even in the play) and I can't picture her being warm and supportive to the Paul Varjac character, like Audrey was.

Maybe they could have cast Dolly Parton!

It is a stretch even for Hepburn but her magic is such you go with it.

I didn’t buy Hepburn as a Cockney street urchin in MFL either, but you just have to go with it.

I never miss a Sally Kellerman musical.

You gotta remember Mary was cast as Holly solely based on what they'd seen of her as Laura Petrie. The musical was before the MTM show and even before Thoroughly Modern Millie. It seems pretty insane to me that anyone could have thought she'd be right for Holly.

Well, wasn't Holly thought of as a Marilyn Monroe type but they cast Audrey Hepburn... Unusual casting choices can pay off.

[quote]It's really important to try and hurt me isn't it?...—MTM Had Never Even Said "Mr. Grant" in 1966

The quote says "years later" after both shows were over he was asked about it

[quote}Too bad Ann Margaret never did broadway.

But she got to do "the Flintstones," which is why she is known today, and I, despite being 'Queen of Broadway," am an unknown.

I've heard the sound board recording of Breakfast at Tiffany's which was recorded during one of the Broadway previews. It's not supposed to exist but of course it does. It is the entire show from overture to the audience milling out after the curtain call. It's been a while but as I recall Mary really tries to be engaging, but she was just miscast as Holly. Richard is pleasant and not quite a dull as you might expect. There is no real chemistry between the leads, though they try. The book is a little dark and plodding and overly talky. As people have said upthread the audience wanted the movie on stage and they wanted to hear "Moon River" or a song like it but there are no hits from the score.

Sally Kellerman completely steals the show. The show comes alive when she is on stage and goes to sleep when she goes back off. Sally Kellerman should have been Holly. She can be funny and vulnerable and she connects with the audience. If she were Holly you could see why the Jeff character would be attracted to her. and you would buy that "Holly" is a new persona that Lulamae created for herself. The Holly that Mary created doesn't feel like a socialite or a party girl or even a call girl; she's just a coarser version of Miss Dorothy from Thoroughly Modern Millie.

[quote]Well, wasn't Holly thought of as a Marilyn Monroe type but they cast Audrey Hepburn... Unusual casting choices can pay off.

Truman Capote wanted Marilyn to play Holly in the movie.

They wanted Neely O'Hara for Holly and I told them, "Broadway doesn't go for booze and dope."

[quote] It's really important to try and hurt me isn't it?...—MTM Had Never Even Said "Mr. Grant" in 1966

I can’t believe that queen Richard Chamberlain would have ever said such cruel things about beloved MTM.

I don't think he did say those things.

Isn't it funny how gay men put down other gay men by using the word "queen" but they uplift women, usually heterosexual, with the label "Queen!"

R304. True. You can also be a diva or a Diva.

Emilia Clarke in BAT.

Liz Ashley did a ‘spoken word’ LP recording of Breakfast at Tiffany’s with David Dukes. I have it but haven’t listened to it in many years but I remember thinking Ashley would have made a great Holly on stage or screen.

Pic of cover.

Richard sings.

^ Why do Americans insist on clapping their hands DURING the performance.?

It is rude, distracting and interrupts the performer's art!

I assume they are acknowledging the song. AAAAAAApril LOOOOOOOOOOOVe. He has quite the vibrato.

John Gary makes a nice quiet case for "You've Never Kissed Her" here that gets a bit big at the end, but is enjoyable overall. I like it better than the bombastic Linden on the studio cast album and the twanging Ernie Freeman arrangement with angel chorus background behind Vic Damone's cover (both on RCA).

Wonder why they didn't make Marilyn Maye sing half the score, she was at RCA then.

Frankie Randall's cover of "Holly Golightly" used to be on YouTube but can't find it now.

Nice but they should have nixed those strings.

Sally sings

Let's not forget this infectious singalong.

Was the Chamberlain character in the musical clearly a rent boy?

Sally dropped out of Come Back to the 5 and Dime before rehearsals began and was replaced by Karen Black. Shame she didn’t do more theatre.

Was she touchy about playing a transsexual?

Whoa… judging from those You Tube clips it’s a mercy this thing died early.

The musical I mean. Dear Sally was taken too soon.

As a score, it has several really lovely, fun songs, and some "high-quality" floppo material.

But another issue with the show is that it was vulgar for the late '60s, especially in what audiences expected from an Audrey Hepburn film now with lovable MTM. Audiences simply did not want to see Laura Petrie singing about peeing in bed and taking cocaine in the arm. One song has a lyric about Snow White having sex with a marine, for God's sake! Audiences wanted the charming movie Holly, the lost innocent, not the crass, common opportunistic whore of the novella. The musical tried to have it both ways.

Albee book is deadly. Humorless and pitch dark. Listen to the bootleg of the full show. You can tell the whole thing just thuds there like a lead balloon. DOA.

What was Merrick thinking? Did he think he was being au courant?

In the dull play version, Cory Michael Smith was sexy as hell. One shan't soon forget the sight of his swinging pendulum as he rose from the bathtub.

Albee book is deadly. Humorless and pitch dark.

Like Merrick should have expected anything else? Merrick knew exactly what he was doing. What one has to wonder is exactly why he did what he did when he knew just what audiences were expecting from this musical. It's like Mack and Mable. The Broadway audiences of the time were not going to see a David Merrick/ Gower Champion/Jerry Herman musical to see it end with the heroine dying a drug addict. Maybe possibly being run over by a train in a comic stunt gone wrong but by a heroin overdose no.

Mable, Mable, sweet and able

Get your elbows off the tabel

Yes let's get Edward Albee to spice up the book because his Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? was so funny. I can't recall one laugh in it. It's tortuous.

Actually, "Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf" has a lot of dark humor and some very funny lines in it. Where did you see it, R326? At the Burt Reynolds Dinner Theatre?

I just had to watch the movie and hated it. Give me an example of a funny line in it?

[quote]Actually, "Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf" has a lot of dark humor and some very funny lines in it. Where did you see it, [R326]? At the Burt Reynolds Dinner Theatre?

Yes, and let me tell you, Ruth Buzzi and Arte Johnson were MASTERFUL.

Buck would never have admitted he came from Appalachia.

I’m picturing Burt Reynolds and Sally Field as George and Martha.

Burt and Sally as George and Martha, circa 1994, would have been amazing.

[quote]I just had to watch the movie and hated it. Give me an example of a funny line in it?

If you watched the movie and didn't find any of the lines funny, I can promise that you won't find them funny if I repeat them to you outside of the context of the play and an understanding of how the characters are interacting. It isn't Neil Simon.

Here's one Al Pillay, singing Holly's replacement 11 o'clocker, complete with gestures, in his cabaret act. "While I'm salty and I'm young"

Interesting fact about Joey Heatherton...she was a WHORE!

R334 -- Al Pillay! I never heard of Al Pillary until your post. But now, I'm obsessed. From the hand gestures to the song choice to the delectable twink at the piano. Is he still around singing? Is he the gay Shirley Bassey? Will he be at Don't Tell Mama's for the holidays?

Al Pillay is the poor man's Liza!

Funny you say that R336, I thought at first he was doing late career Judy in her "Summer of Love" Valley of the Dolls pantsuit and hair look, what with the left-handed gestures. Then he sang "New guy!" and I realized, that's just Al.

Love the ladder climbing gesture, the "overcome the shakes" gesture, the "fingers get the feel" theatre for the deaf gesture, and the finger to the temple (which I don't quite get) for "some supreme variations on a theme".

in thigh-highs

R338 - exactly! The gestures are done with complete conviction, even if totally nonsensical. The finger-to-temple is a prime example. I also love how on "shakes" he does jazz hands. Wonderful!

R326 & R327 Your comments reminded me of the old SCTV version of "Who's Afraid of Virginial Woolf" with Andrea Martin as Barbra Streisand playing Martha.

[Quote] Al Pillay! I never heard of Al Pillary until your post. But now, I'm obsessed. From the hand gestures to the song choice to the delectable twink at the piano. Is he still around singing? Is he the gay Shirley Bassey? Will he be at Don't Tell Mama's for the holidays?

He had a "You Spin Me 'Round"-alike record in the 1980s: "Pistol In My Pocket," credited to Lana Pellay.

Sally Kellerman was friends with Jennifer Jones, and this apparently began (or maybe continued) when Sally was in group therapy, with Jennifer running the group as a lay therapist. I remember her talking about it when JJ died.

[quote]Yes, and let me tell you, Ruth Buzzi and Arte Johnson were MASTERFUL.

Sadly, no one wanted to play "Hump the Hostess" with Ruth.

[quote] Sadly, no one wanted to play "Hump the Hostess" with Ruth.

R344 Until the aging Johnson and Buzzi thought they were back on Laugh-In playing Tyrone and Gladys.

I always get Sally Kellerman and Sally Kirkland confused.

I prefer American Dad's, r341...

'Yes, and let me tell you, Ruth Buzzi and Arte Johnson were MASTERFUL.'

And who played Martha and George?

Er, "What a dump!"

Holly Golightly as a swingin' jazz waltz, courtesy of Ken and Beverly

If there was a sound board for the musical, that would have meant it was mic'd, right? (or miked, idk.)

Somebody pointed out shows have been mic'd since the 30s. I believe the original Funny Girl was the first with body mics.

How did they ever hide those early mics, like the one Streisand supposedly wore in FG? There are scores of production photos of her in FG yet none expose a mic, either on her forehead or on her chest (and several of her costumes were quite low-cut). I've never seen a production shot of any star from that era in which the mic was seen. How was it hidden and yet did its job?

When the more modern mics started, as on Glenn Close in Sunset Boulevard, the mics were clearly seen on her forehead. She had to wear 2 so that there was always a back-up mic. Did sound designers and costume and wig designers just give up and let the mics be seen? Why??

What is a mic?

Mic(rophone)

[quote]Somebody pointed out shows have been mic'd since the 30s.

"Somebody pointed out". Does that mean that it's accurate info? All shows? My parents (who were in their 20s, at the time) saw South Pacific and had to sit in the back of the upper-most balcony and always said they couldn't hear most of it.

Microphones in the footlights were common in musicals in the 1930s and 1940s but body mics started to be used much later. Mary Martin wore one just for the flying sequence in PETER PAN in 1954. Anna Maria Alberghetti wore one in CARNIVAL! in 1961. Barbra Streisand wore one in FUNNY GIRL. They were hidden in costumes and not meant to be seen. Nowadays, performers have them right on their faces--we are supposed to not notice.

This says foot mics were first used in the 1950s. No idea if it's correct, though.

Those huge pimples on people's face are horrible

Microphones have always been problematic. Even in the movies.

Helen Traubel required some mic help (bizarre, given her opera background) for Pipe Dream. Not a body mic, but mics onstage.

Also overhead microphones.

I still don't understand how mics could be that well-hidden and do the job effectively. Why don't they just use those old body mics??

R358, that article was definitely wrong that the first body mics were introduced with FUNNY GIRL so I wouldn't believe the assertion that foot mics weren't introduced until the 1950s--they had been in use in the 1930s and 1940s. For one example, music director Robert Emmett Dolan wrote to Oscar Hammerstein about microphones and theatres in 1938 presumably for their upcoming production of VERY WARM FOR MAY.

During a performance of Carnival Anna Maria Alberghetti used the facilities but forgot to turn off her mic. Poor Jerry Orbach was onstage singing his heart out and FLUSHHHHHHHHJJJ

^ How mortifying!

[quote]Poor Jerry Orbach was onstage singing his heart out and FLUSHHHHHHHHJJJ

I heard that it was a particularly loud #2, r365.

I wonder if the porcelain echo helped Jerry's pitch.

I think the sound man, not Alberghetti, would be responsible for turning off the microphone.

Then Alberghetti in a taxi shouldn't have pissed off the sound man, r369.

Alberghetti in a taxi?

Alberghetti was taking a loud resounding good old fashioned gassy Italiano #2? And delighted the audience in which theater? The Imperial or the Winter Garden where long run turds have taken up residence for many years at a time?

Get with it, r371...

I read this on a Broadway World forum:

"Rodgers and Hammerstein insisted that floor mics be used for SOUTH PACIFIC because they thought that the dialogue and lyrics were getting lost up in the rear mezzanine and balcony of the theatre. Apparently, they put a mic on the stage and went up to watch the show in the balcony and could hear every word. The rest is history..."

So I'm guessing my parents saw the show before that...

At least Anna Maria hadn't eaten corn.

That we know of, Carol.

[quote]What is a mic?

A loudmouth drunk Irish...

"Corn, when did I eat corn?"

R373 I'm not American and never saw that Tv show so I don't understand why that joke is funny.

Are we supposed to be laughing AT that old guy on the right instead of laughing at the joke itself?

Isn't it a song lyric?

It's supposed to be *so* bad that it's funny, r379.

OK, thank you, R381.

It seems Anna Maria Alberghetti still alive. I wonder if she was consulted before this bad joke was broadcast?

Yes, r380, without the AMA bit...

[quote]I'll be down to get you in a taxi, honey, haw

Please, be ready 'bout half-past eight

[quote] I'm not American and never saw that Tv show

Two strikes against you, R379. One more, you're banned for life

[quote]According to Wikipedia, after Albee rewrote the book it came in at just under FOUR HOURS.

BULL! Merrick isn't that crazy!

[quote] Albee …came in at just under FOUR HOURS.

I'm only a youngster but was that back in the days when a proper night at the opera, ballet or legitimate theatre included TWO intervals?

[quote]"Corn, when did I eat corn?"

Hasn't this gag died of old age yet?

R373, get with it? It's a bad joke from 1975 that doesn't make sense unless you include the "honey," honey.

Many ballets and operas still have two intervals. I don't know why you don't know that unless you never go. You might want to experience them.

A lot of theaters must have been built, before there was miking, with the assumption that actors and/or singers would be heard from every seat, though, right? Whatever happened to speaking up, projecting, or singing loudly enough to be heard?

Shows are orchestrated differently. Broadway singers could not be heard over some latterday type orchestrations.

R391 It's a two-way street. Shows are orchestrated that way because there's miking. But, anyway, what about straight plays?

[quote]But, anyway, what about straight plays?

I saw "Oslo" at Lincoln Center and missed half the dialogue. And when you miss half the dialogue in a play like "Oslo," you're in for a very long three hours. I should have gotten one of those headsets for the hearing-impaired.

I wouldn't even go to Oslo, never mind play called Oslo.

They'd drum you right outta Oslo, r394.

R395 Because?

I loved Audrey in Givenchy and Pat in Trigère...

I think Audrey Christie would have been great in it.

(R334), here's the real deal.

^

She can only do one note per syllable.

It reminds me of I'll Plant My Own Tree.

🙈 It was a huge error in judgement to vainly attempt to turn this into a musical.

Nobody likes musicals. Well, I suppose Helen Keller might enjoy an occasional musical.

That live cut of Moore would have been sensational on a real obc. It seems like it would have been a favorite lp of a flop musical.

Honestly that song is better than anything in a big hit like Applause.

[quote] A lot of theaters must have been built, before there was miking, with the assumption that actors and/or singers would be heard from every seat, though, right? Whatever happened to speaking up, projecting, or singing loudly enough to be heard?

You have to remember that audiences back in the days before mics really strained to hear, especially in those gigantic Broadway houses like the Palace and the St. james and the Winter Garden. it's often been said of Ethel merman that she was a star not because she was necessarily that charming or had such a beautifully voice but because in those days without mics she was so loud everyone could hear her, even at the very back of the theater. Few people had that kind of a voice, so the move to mics was really welcome, especially for older people.

*"had such a beautiful voice," not "beautifully"--sorry.

[quote]Breakfast at Tiffany's - The Musical - What Went Wrong

Breakfast at Tiffany's - The Musical

[quote] those gigantic Broadway houses like the Palace and the St. james and the Winter Garden.

R405 But were those houses any larger than the opera houses of Europe?

(I regret that the art of singing has regressed over this last century and the use of microphones)

The people too for the most part probably had better hearing. Especially the younger people. And they were accustomed to being more involved in what was going on on stage. They had to be really focused and involved. It was a necessity. I don't know for sure I wasn't there. At least I think I wasn't though at times I do think I might have lived then and might have been reincarnated. I enjoy the old stuff too much for it to make much sense.

R405 But not every show had Ethel Merman in it.

R409 Why would people have had better hearing then?

[quote]Nobody likes musicals. Well, I suppose Helen Keller might enjoy an occasional musical.

Meanwhile, DL just reached its 100 millionth post about "Follies."

It's clearly and understandably very hard for younger people to understand what a different experience going to Broadway theatre used to be. That the sound was generally unfiltered by body microphones gave the performance an immediacy and directness that just doesn't exist today. Instead of being disembodied as today, the sound actually emanated from the performer's throat.

The audience was very aware of the conductor as they could see his head and even sometimes members of the orchestra in the pit. The scenery and lighting were also relatively simpler, if more primitive, so there was less of a "barrier" between the performers and the audience. A little thing like wigs - there was much less wigging so the actresses all felt more real, less artificial.

I remember seeing shows in the 1960s, way up in the balcony, and you would see tape on the floor denoting where pieces of scenery and props had to land, often pulled in by the ensemble cast. Much less automation, it just all felt more alive.

I could go on....but you get the idea.

What musicals have ever improved upon the film version? (yes, I know BaT was based on the book - but you know what I mean).

Newsies, r413!

[quote]A little thing like wigs - there was much less wigging so the actresses all felt more real, less artificial.

Wrong, r412.

I was talking to somebody about those beauty shots of young women on postcards during the Edwardian era where they don't wear a hat and they've got all this hair. You know like Gladys Cooper when she was young. I said what's with the hair and he said they added falls. That hair wasn't all real. I didn't know. I thought they just might have been healthier and had more lustrous hair.

What do you think?

Not falls, r416. Women would save their hair from their brushes. That hair could be used for pieces that they'd comb their hair over to create height and volume. Like a Bump-it.

[quote]Hair receivers were common on the dressing tables of women from the Victorian era through the 1950s. They were used to collect hair from hair brushes for a variety of purposes: making hair art, filling pincusions or other small pillows, or for creating elaborate hair styles.

And voodoo dolls.

Those little hair fillers were called rats. Most women used them, as those Gibson Girl dos were so voluminous. But most women had quite long hair, so there was a lot to work with even without the rats.

I suspect there's some additional hair added to r416's hair, you can almost see a texture difference in the bun, or Nike Knot, as that style of bun was called then.

The rat...

Kind of far afield from what went wrong with Breakfast at Tiffany's - The Musical.

David Merrick was a rat.

A big, fat rat.

Missing songs from that studio recording:

"Scum-Dee-Dum"

Sally Tomato's other song, "Stay in the Sun"

and the duet that would bring Jeff and Holly together at the end of the Albee version, listed in the Playbill but not on the bootleg from the NY preview, "Better Together"

Wonder why these aren't on that studio album that purports to be so thorough?

Also, after the Exit Music on CD2 that starts with "Holly Golightly" it goes into some other tune that isn't heard anywhere else on the album, that fades out (we don't hear the ending as we would in the theatre). What tune is that?

[quote]I remember seeing shows in the 1960s, way up in the balcony, and you would see tape on the floor denoting where pieces of scenery and props had to land, often pulled in by the ensemble cast. Much less automation, it just all felt more alive.

I used to see that in the 70s or later. I never saw them pulled in by the cast, but anyway, I'm curious - how do they know where moveable scenery is supposed to go, now? Like a table. Wouldn't they have to have marks on the floor?

R412 See above.

Yes I remember Carol Channing at the St. James pushing in the staircase when they were setting up the Harmonia Gardens right after Elegance.

It was certainly better than "Breakfast at Tiffany Trump's."

Where did Bob Merrill leave his papers? Lincoln Center library? It seems like there would be a significant collection.

Now it has its own spinoff!

R424, there was also a song for Mr. Yunioshi called "Holly Gollucci" although I've never heard it. On Bob Merrill's composer demo, two other songs that weren't included on the studio recording are "Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farm" and "Latin Temperament". There are some pretty decent songs in this show: "Traveling" and "Grade A Treatment" are two of my favorites.

Holly Golluci was its name when the Naples, Italy production opened.

R431 is Holly Gollucci for Mr. Yunioshi for sure? Or Sally Tomato to sing about Holly/an Italian-themed alternate lyric to the "Holly Golightly" song we already know? "Stay in the Sun" and "Better Together" are the two I really want to hear.

In reacquainting myself with the novella and the studio cast recording, it's hard to see why this would be so unsolvable as long as there was someone to keep the dialogue funny, snappy, and bubbly and occasionally deliver a core of emotion. Abe Burrows at his best could've done it, no question. It's a story with a pretty linear progression about Holly and five guys: Jeff, Rusty, Doc (for the first act curtain), Sally, and the Brazilian. She's the naughty one in the long line of big 60s musical ladies - Dolly, Mame, Fanny, even Christine and Anya. She can't be pinned down, and you just end up grateful for the time you had with her.

The movie version is what has definitely won out in people's minds in 2022 when they think of this property. People today would want a "movie with songs", set in the time period of the movie, tending to be boisterous and not dark, edgy/naughty and maybe occasionally smarmy but not nasty and bitter, with at least some kind of connection between Holly and Jeff at the end.

This poor show! About a hooker, trying out in Boston, of all places. All the "shocking" and groovy elements probably wouldn't make anyone blink today, and after Sally Bowles and Cabaret, any vulgarity here probably would've felt like weak tea to late 60s Bway audiences. Making Holly harder and foulmouthed, putting the show in the late 60s...these ideas don't seem so great in hindsight.

It's the swearing that puts people off, the use of the actual swear word, not the talk about the activity if it's written well: "I can't find my goddamn key" as one of the first things out of Holly's mouth is unnecessary in a bandbox broad-appeal musical like this and would put people off; a passing lyric in a funny song, once you knew Holly and Mag, about "taking cocaine in the arm" would be fine today. They wouldn't want to see Holly lose her baby in a brawl with the cops though.

Was just reading James Burroughs' autobiography and he says MTM fell into his arms crying at the end of every performance.

R430 I used to go to movies at that theater.

Thanks R434, I saw that his autobiography had come out but didn't know if he spent any time talking about BAT.

Just listened to the full recording of a Broadway preview, Albee book, made from the audience. The songlist listed in the Broadway Playbill doesn't match what's on the recording. So there's a difference between what the audience saw and what's on the Playbill page. Yet another variation in this much-changed show.

The Broadway Playbill lists "Lulamae" in Act I for Doc and Holly but on the live performance recording they sing "I'm Not the Girl". "I'm Not the Girl" is listed in the Broadway Playbill for Jeff and Holly in Act II, but it's not there at all, not even as a reprise.

There is a reprise of "Holly Golightly" sung by Jeff (after the "Dance" in Act II) that's not listed in the Playbill.

The Broadway Playbill lists "Ciao Compare" in Act II but it is not on the live recording.

It lists "Better Together" in the Playbill but Jeff just sings a reprise of "Stay With Me" (as "Stay With Her") in that spot.

Also, the overture (or what's left of it) is different from what's on the studio recording, as the songs that comprise the overture on the studio recording had been cut by Broadway.

I'm definitely not an MTM fan, but heck, on this live recording she's giving it all she's got. Holly sings a lot, and MTM does well with the comedy as well as the toughness without losing her innate charm. It's funny to hear her spout the vulgarities in the name of comedy, like an R-rated Laura Petrie.

Larry Kert gets entrance applause.

The band is loud and brassy. It cooks even more than the studio album, and the tempos are faster as a rule. It must have been thrilling and energizing in the theatre. The audience gives several of the numbers a good round of applause.

On a whole other note, the second CD in the studio set is only about 35 minutes. There was plenty of room for the unrecorded songs, and if the materials for them didn't exist, they should have disclosed that in the liner notes. Otherwise we're left with an incomplete BAT, which is frustrating in that it strives to be completist but ultimately isn't.