Claudio Abbado

He has the defining recording of Mahler's Fifth with the Berliner Philharmoniker

Attached is a blog remembering his amazing life

Any other great recordings or gossip you know about him?

I would say he was a better Mahler conductor than Bernstein.

I find his opera recordings hit or miss depending on the cast. While some don't like his CARMEN with Berganza, I do. I also like his PELLEAS ET MELISANDE with Ewing and LeRoux, BARBER OF SEVILLE with Prey and Berganza, and CERENTOLA with Berganza.

On the flip side I wouldn't recommend the AIDA, as Riciarelli is inadequate in the title role.

I love his first Mahler cycle, especially Nos. 2, 3, and 7.

Mahler, Symphony No. 7, Abbado, Chicago Symphony Orchestra

His Beethoven Piano Concerto works with Maurizio Pollini are great.

I worked in the music biz for many many years and nobody but nobody( a multitude of classical music aficionados who obsessively bought their favorite conductors) ever claimed that Abbado was one of the greats. Very good at best which was as said above hit or miss.

People don't listen to many recordings these days I guess.

[quote] People don't listen to many recordings

Recordings are cheaper than concerts.

Claudio Arrau displayed more cleverness than Claudio Abbado.

Was he doing the homosex?

Personally, I think about 95% of the population has no ability to rank or rate a conductor based on performance and I am in that majority. Maybe I’ll learn something from that new Cate movie.

R8 were they pretentious fops like most people in the music business?

Nope. They knew their stuff. They knew what was shit and what was the shit.

Nobody dished Abbado either. He just wasn't a favorite in the top tier.

OP, when you say, "He is one of my conductors," do you mean that you played in an orchestra he was conducting?

As a professional player in an orchestra, I can speak about what a conductor brings to the table. NONE of what the audience sees at a performance represents what the conductor is all about. (All they see is some guy randomly waving his arms, and usually not in a way that seems to represent where the beats fall in the music that they are hearing). It's actually in the rehearsal process that a conductor's skill or lack thereof is revealed. In a professional orchestra, the players have usually only received their parts one or two weeks before the first rehearsal. So we are practicing our parts somewhat blindly, not knowing if the tempos we are rehearsing are the ones that the conductor is going to choose, not knowing if he is going to follow the markings in the music to get louder here or slow down there. If a conductor is conducting a program of 2 hours of music, and he has only 5 rehearsals with the orchestra to pull it all together, what we as players are looking for is clarity and vision. In clarity, we want to understand how he is indicating the beats (many conductors conduct slightly ahead of the beat, in order, they say, to prepare the orchestra for the sound and quality they want - others conduct almost right on top of the beat - the downbeat represents the one beat, and they want the orchestra to meet that downbeat with them). We also want to know how the conductor is going to slow us down or speed us up in transitions. Orchestras are like huge freight trains - they can't start and stop on a dime, because they are reading the music - they don't have time to memorize it. So we can only keep half an eye on the conductor at any one time. But a good conductor will rehearse those transitions very carefully and advise us on what he is planning to do.

We also are looking for some artistic insight into the music we are performing. What was the composer trying to convey? What is the peak or climax of the piece? What are some beautiful details that we should bring out to make it sound more lovely or more engaging? Which instrument family has the most important melody at any given time, and how will the conductor balance us out to help that melodic idea shine? Does the conductor himself communicate love of the music and thorough knowledge of it, or is he too just reading it?

Finally, there is time management of the available rehearsal time. Does the conductor allow enough time to rehearse each part of each piece or does he easily get sidetracked, so that by the time of the performance, some sections have never really had enough rehearsal to gel?

Well put R17. A conductor’s insight into a composition is important for the orchestra, especially if it’s a work they’ve performed with another conductor.

Op, what did Abbado and Leontyne Price work on together?

He was a huge talent but like most conductors who are fiery and dynamic when young, his performances grew safer, softer-edged, and obsessed with orchestral refinement as he got older.

He stole $500 from me.

R17 thanks for these insights. That's why I come to DL!

Is there still an element of suspense during the actual performance? Do the musicians think "wow, he is good tonight"? Do you actually make eye contact ? Was exactly are you lookin at? Do you get a review by the conductor after the performance? Do you admire conductors that know the score by heart?

As an aside, do you know the "Vier Kaffee" anecdote of the Vienna Philharmonics?

R18 I thought he conducted a performance of Aida

r21 - the answer is yes - sometimes the conductor seems completely energized and enthusiastic and can get the orchestra excited - and other times, he has made the orchestra so angry during rehearsals that we will usually glare at him and give attitude. There are lots of stories of abusive conductors that have singled out and insulted players. That is less common now, because conductors are evaluated on a regular basis by players in symphonies and those evaluations can by used by the unions to bring to the table during negotiations. Of course, conductors will often raise an eyebrow if some part sounds crappy, and a player knows right away if he is getting the death glare from a conductor. The days are long past where players worship the conductor. In fact we have many conductor jokes

What's the difference between a bull and an orchestra? (answer below) *

If I have a solo that sets the tempo for the orchestra, you bet I'm making eye contact, so that he knows I'm ready and watching - otherwise, I don't look at the conductor directly very often. No, I don't know the Vier Kaffee story of the Vienna Philharmonic.

* A bull has horns in front and an asshole behind

But neither are conductors held in the veneration they once were or considered godlike. And they were considered godlike from the musical treasure they brought out in an orchestra. Does it still happen? It might but I haven't heard. Toscanini blew his top, so did Szell, Klemperer, Rodzinski. Nicer(which is relative) Bernstein, Furtwangler, Knappertsbusch, Munch, Karajan, Beecham, Monteux, Celibidache...As far as I've heard conductors since then are not held in awe or worshipped because there is no reason to.

Love his Pelléas

Didn't Levine get Me-tooed. One wonders how Solti would have handled all that.

Am a new but enthusiastic opera listener...

Could someone please simply explain the chain of command in a show/house, and where the conductor sits in that chain? Is a Musical Director of a show more or less powerful? How do they work together and communicate, especially if there are snags or disagreeements?

Also, how is a conductor brought into a show or house, and is he in a position to negotiate what he wants to do for a show and how?

There are so many questions I have about how the moving parts of the backstage and rehearsal process works. Any links to resources that break it down would be most useful. Thank you everyone!

This is my favorite song by him.

R27: Theaters have an intendant or a general manager who's the administrator of the whole shebang (although he might be answerable to a board, as at the Met).

Then the theater may have a conductor who is the music director. The MD is closely involved in planning seasons and has a lot of say in the singers on the house's roster and in the casting of specific shows. He will personally conduct a lot of the big-ticket items, new productions and important revivals.

What the MD doesn't conduct (because he's not interested in the repertoire, or it's not his specialty, or just because there's always much more work in a season than any one person can handle) is overseen by other conductors. They might be prestigious guest conductors in their own right, or they might just be up-and-comers or veteran journeymen, so their influence will vary. When the Met had Riccardo Muti as a guest conductor for the first time about 12 years ago, the general manager let him choose EVERYTHING: the opera (he picked one the Met had never performed), the whole cast, the stage director, the design team, even whether it got an HD movie broadcast with cameras (no).

The theatrical side of opera is the province of the stage director, but stage directors don't typically get a choice in which singers are in a production. Many of them would LIKE to, and they would probably prioritize good acting and looking the part over the singing, but they tend to be stuck with the theatrical abilities of the singers whom the conductor, casting department, and administration want to feature.

The most powerful conductors have a lot of influence over the whole show. Levine at the Met, for example, had very conservative tastes, and so at the peak of his power in the '80s, '90s, and early '00s, there were a lot of new productions by his established favorite directors.

I hope that helps a little. It's a hard subject to get into, because there are a lot of variables and exceptions. A young conductor coming to the Met to conduct five routine Bohèmes won't have influence over the casting and won't get a great deal of rehearsal time. A famous conductor coming to the Met for a new production will be a different situation.

Abbado comes up in the new movie, Tar, which is very pertinent for this discussion. I found it fascinating. It gives a lot of behind the scenes looks at the conducting world, and the politics of orchestras, among other things. Cate Blanchett is over-the-top fantastic in the role!!!

R30. Yes, I liked Tar a lot! I have the recording of Mahler's Fifth that Abbado did. It is beautiful.

I have sung with several great/world-famous conductors through the years. Singers have a different perspective from the musicians in the orchestra (who generally despise singers as not being true musicians). We look at the conductor far more, as we usually have the music memorized, even if we are told to hold those stupid black folders. We also classify conductors as orchestral or choral, based on how they run rehearsals and how they communicate with the singers. I never sang for Abbado, but watching him conduct the final part of Mahler's 2nd in the video below, I'd say he "gets" singers. He makes full eye contact at entrances, and his intentions are clear. When the soprano soloist (who is wonderful) gave a little too much there was a gentle, but clear, instruction to pull back - and she is clearly keeping her eyes on him. I don't know the Lucerne Festival Orchestra to say whether he brought out the best in them, but the playing is wonderful, with great restraint in the brass. At one point near the end he brings the orchestra down a notch so the power of the chorus holds sway. Clearly he is in total command of piece, and the performers have bought into his vision. What I find most interesting is how none of the emotion is registered on his face -but in his arms and hands.

This isn't my favorite version of this symphony, but it is excellent, and I give full marks to Maestro Abbado for setting an exemplary high standard and bringing it out in everyone on the stage.

This might be the most pretentious Datalounge thread of all time.

Classical music can be one humankind's most beautiful creations, but talking about it like these posters do only makes most people want to vomit.

R33 How am I making this pretentious? I just wanted to discuss Abbado. On DL we have discussed Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Bernstein, Callas, and a myriad of other people in the opera and orchestral scene

I hadn't thought of 'vomit,' r33, until you posted your oral excrescence.

A friend sang in a chorus under Levine in Verbier. She said he was amazing and she finally understood why so many people put up with his shit for so many decades. Of course the man died in complete humiliation and disgrace and his greatest platform the Metropolitan Opera pretends he never existed(at least that's the impression I get)so his ability and talent as a musician over the course of a long career is wiped away.

Abbado’s Mahler recordings (at least 1, 5,6,7) with the BPO are my imprint from way back when Imeem existed lol. I prefer Solti/Chicago’s Mahler 2, an obscure Haitink/Vienna Mahler 3, Tennstedt/LPO’s Mahler 4 with Lucia Popp’s airy voice, and the Boulez/Chicago Mahler 9.

I also love his set of Hungarian Dances, his well-known Carmen, and his 90s Emperor with Barenboim half playing, half trying to conduct 🙄

Visually, Abbado’s beat patterns and cues are so elegant. He’s the conductor on which I model myself when I’m drunk conducting in my apartment.

[quote] I would say he was a better Mahler conductor than Bernstein.

Das ist nicht Mahler!

The recent re-mastered Lenny Columbia Mahler box set with original covers is fabulous. I'd get his DG traversals but I understand they are live and when I get into the mood applause at the end is very jarring and ruins it.

Boccanegra is a favorite opera but I understand despite the wonderful cast Abbado's recording is something of a bore. I like the Solti and Santini very much so they'll do.

Differing with R39: That Boccanegra is one of the essentials for me. Not just for the cast, either. I find Abbado himself very atmospheric. That was a great era for the Milan orchestra, and in their treatment of the preludes under his direction, I really hear and feel the sea. The most beautifully played recording, IMO.

It was a fantastic stage production by Strehler too. I used to wish the television broadcast would get a proper video release, all spiffed up to look as good as a filmed stage show from the '70s can look. I guess if it hasn't happened yet...

Abbado's later Boccanegra video from the early 2000s was like a fixed fight for someone intent on proving that the quality of opera singing had plummeted over about 25 years. In the '70s, he had had had Freni, the young Carreras, Cappuccilli, and Ghiaurov. Thirty years later, he had Karita Mattila (an excellent singer, but Italian opera was never her best suit) and three men it's hard to believe ever got out of the provinces.

[quote]The recent re-mastered Lenny Columbia Mahler box set with original covers is fabulous.

And rather inexpensive today, r39. Overall, it's my favorite Mahler cycle, followed by Abbado's first, with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra and the Vienna Philharmonic.

R40 I don't know if you are in the NY area but did you see the Met production With Frittoli and Hvorostovsky? That was very wonderful. Years before I had seen Kiri as Amelia/Maria. I wasn't going to see it but somebody told me she was excellent. I was like really? Kiri doing Verdi? She was splendid. I'll never forget how her voice soared above all in the council chamber scene. People call her dreary Kiri but she won my heart permanently for that alone.

He was a good looking man all the way until his death

Muti was very good looking as well. Musicians would joke about his vanity.

Unfortunately the complete Mahler Abbado set recommended above is out of print. I believe it's his second traversal which is still available.

Speaking of Mahler, what do folks here thing of von Karajan's Mahler recordings? I think his live recording of the 9th is sublime, and I also like his 4th with Edith Mathis.

[quote]Speaking of Mahler, what do folks here thing of von Karajan's Mahler recordings?

The best of them, IMO, are the 6th, his second attempt at the 9th (the live one), and the songs with Christa Ludwig (Kindertotenlieder and the Rückert Lieder). I remember being happy that the recordings with Ludwig were included as fill-ups on the DG Originals release of the 6th, which put a lot of Karajan's best Mahler in one place.

I have other preferences for the other Mahler works he recorded (the 4th, 5th, and Das Lied von der Erde).

It's a shame he came fairly late to Mahler...but then, Mahler had to wait for his time to come. HvK probably would have done well with the 2nd and 8th.

Abbado was the last true celebrity conductor.

Toscanini, Klemperer, Furtwangler, Beecham, Stokowski, Solti, Bernstein, von Karajan, and finally Abbado.

Ozawa is still alive, but I never looked at him as a celebrity like the aforementioned

Maybe Simon Rattle or Valery Gergiev

Aren't Muti and Mehta still conducting or have they retired? Or dead?

And while Abbado was a celebrity conductor nobody who is a passionate collector of classical music would have put him on the exalted level of the previous mentioned conductors.

Was Giulini a celebrity conductor? I always thought his work was stellar, certainly better than Abbado.

Yes most definitely.

I think in any era there are celebrity conductors in the sense that they're in great demand, they're constantly flying from here to there to fulfill a packed calendar of engagements, they're respected for their knowledge and ability, they're coveted by organizations that will need a new music director soon, they make recordings for the major labels, etc.

In that sense, Nézet-Séguin, Dudamel, Nelsons, Petrenko, and others provide continuity with those who preceded them.

But classical musicians in 2023 are far less likely to be household names than was the case 50-60 years ago. When Vincent Bugliosi was making his closing arguments in the Manson case, he memorably described a long-winded member of opposing counsel as "the Toscanini of tedium," and he knew this reference would land for ordinary jurors. Nothing like that would happen today, and it's been a gradual process. It's hard even to imagine a symphonic conductor being on the cover of TIME magazine, as Levine (never a Bernstein-level famous person) was in the early 1980s.

So, are people less musically educated today?

People are organically less interested in classical music now, due to changing tastes. But also Western art is no longer seen as objectively good. Everything is looked at more critically than in past years. Conductors and other leaders can’t really have a “reputation” anymore, else they’d get exposed as some kind of public villain.

Bernstein's first Mahler cycle with Sony is mostly exceptional and never bettered (3, 4, 6, 7, 8 if you care about it, 9 is pretty great) but it's got that total dud of a Fifth. His DG remake of the Fifth is so, so much better. But the DG box has the Fourth with the boy soprano, which just doesn't work, along with great recordings of 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, and 9. It's frustrating that neither of Bernstein's recorded cycles are completely satisfying, but if you selected between them you'd have all the recordings you'd need.

My favorite Mahler 8 is a live recording with Klaus Tennstedt and the LPO. I know some pooh-pooh that symphony but I enjoy it.

Abbado conducting Tchaikovsky's Symphony No 2 with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra

He died ten years ago on January 20, 2014.

Abbado was a great Brucknerian as well. Attached is Abbado leading the Wiener Philharmoniker

Claudio Abbado on Desert Island Discs