HOUSE OF THE DRAGON, 10/23/22: "The Black Queen"

It leaked? Where? WHERE?????

On the internet?

Did Daemon have high pitched voice in previous episodes? I didn't notice. He sounded like a lady in this episode. And why is he missing the eyebrows?

Is there a Queen of Blue?

I saw it and it felt unfinished

How did Daemon claimed that dragon? He already has a dragon.Can a person have more than two dragons?n

Just because it leaked early doesn’t make it fair game. Why spoil it? On Monday no one’s going to care that you saw it first.

Saw it yesterday.

R7 Who said you should care?

r7, No one has spoiled it and I suspect no one on this board will spoil it. Just making broad observations on it is not a "spoiler".

Also, stop pretending this is equal to a GOT finale leak. It's not. It's a solid show which has made a decent fist at attempting to tell another story in the world of Westeros, but it is not even on substandard GOT series 7/8 level, simply because the characters are not nearly as engaging (with the exception of Daemon).

I suspect, however, that series 1 was merely a preamble, and the real HoTD starts next year. That's my hope, anyway. They will have an opportunity to really engage the audience now that the stage is fully set. All they need are better dialogue and character development and the series could take off like a rocket. It's made a great start.

Also if you don't want to be spoiled, maybe don't click on this thread?

R10 Season 1 was a lot of stage setting

R10, as I've bitched before on one of these other threads, the show's writing isn't great. Nothing needs this kind of "stage setting." When the Illiad -- the fucking Iliad, composed when people had nothing to do but listen to random singing poets -- starts, the Trojan War has been going on for nine years. We're just thrown into it. If you're going to tell a story, don't wait until next season, do it now.

[quote]but it is not even on substandard GOT series 7/8 level

*giggle*

Anyone who tries to claim that Season 7 of GOT is better than Season 1 of HOTD is someone who either didn't see Season 7 of GOT, or else did not see Season 1 of HOTD, or else does not understand this universe, or else is a troll.

Take your pick.

[quote]Nothing needs this kind of "stage setting." When the Illiad -- the fucking Iliad, composed when people had nothing to do but listen to random singing poets -- starts, the Trojan War has been going on for nine years. We're just thrown into it. If you're going to tell a story, don't wait until next season, do it now.

Like we didn't spend almost a full decade hearing that "winter is coming" before it actually fucking arrived?

R15, and that a was a huge botch because it was so delayed. It turned out you could solve climate change with a single stab.

Well, r16, if you wanted a realistic show about climate change, you should not have turned to a show that posits the existence of dragons, smoke assassins, and ice zombies.

It's interesting in this show we're being encouraged to root for the side wearing black. In the book, it's not so clear that Rhaenyra and the Blacks are necessarily in the right and Alicent and the Greens in the wrong, but I think they realized the television show audience would need a clearer-cut side to root for, and so they have made the Greens more villainous early on. I will note though that I very much appreciate they've made it clear that Alicent is not yet a murderous person and is trying to be good according to her own lights, albeit in a very flawed and compromised way, even if her sons are pretty undeniably rotten; and also that Daemon can be murderous and opportunistic.

Eh, The Blacks were always the "right side" of the conflict. At the end of the day Viserys had his stated heir and the Greens chose to ignore that and steal the throne.

R17, I wasn’t expecting “realism,” I wanted good drama.

R19, in addition to being Viserys’s acknowledged heir, Rhaenyra is sane and competent; she’s an appropriate ruler. Aegon, rather clearly, is not. He’s not worth a civil war.

The Targaryens only have the throne in the first place because just a few generations back Aegon I brutally conquered (by fire and blood) Westeros, killing thousands in the process; so if someone is able to take the throne from them, how can that not be just as "right"? Remember that Robert Baratheon will eventually take the throne away from Aerys II because Aerys goes mad and decides to slaughter all the people living in King's Landing. So the will of the Targaryen king on the Iron Throne is clearly not necessarily "the right side."

Also: Alicent thinks she [italic]is[/italic] fulfilling the will of the ruler by making sure their son Aegon is crowned his successor. She has no way of knowing what we know: that he was referring back to Aegon I in his discussion the night he died rather than their own son Aegon.

I mean they've said last time a women was up for the throne the lords collectively said "nah fuck that" so you can argue Westeros is pretty much male preference primogeniture which certainly gives Aegon a case, and being king doesn't mean Viserys just gets to pick and choose his successor in the face of tradition. There's plenty of real world cases where that's happened and it ended up being unlawful (granted mainly because the person lost the resulting war). This is genuinlly all Viserys fault for not making people reswear the oath to her or doing more than the bare minimum to fix the rift in his family.

Anyway I think I've decided I'm team Green because they're more interesting since Daemon is probably going rogue next season that only leaves them Rhaenya as an actual character and for the rest of them to quote twitter its "a marxist milf lover, autistic bug prophet, fantasy sex offender gerard way vs brown haired boy #1, brown haired boy #2 (deceased), brown haired boy #3"

Sure you can say the Hightowers have a right to take the throne by conquest, but that starts a brutal war that is going to end badly for a lot of people so still doesn't put them on the right side of the conflict. When Robert rebelled and claimed the throne there was a justification

For me both when I first read Fire and Blood and watching the show, while both sides do bad things it was never in doubt which side was had ultimately acted in the wrong.

They're a quasi medieval dynasty. I think I have a better claim to the throne because the other claimant is a women even though her father the late king supported her claim is a perfectly reasonable cause to start a war.

Now that war has been declared it doesn't matter who was declared the heir.

It will ultimately be decided by whose might eventually prevails, as was the case in the Anarchy (the real life basis of this series, the English civil war between the forces loyal to Empress Matilda, the daughter of the previous king of England who was declared his heir, and her cousin Stephen).

This is certainly the TV show with the most disgusting images of stillbirths I've ever seen. I think the showrunners have an obsession about it.

We have a better explanation of why Rhaenys didn't barbecue the Greens on the dais last week: she didn't want to be responsible for starting the war. Since Aegon's heirs were not on the dais, the surviving lords not in the Dragonpit loyal to Aegon would have turned to them as his heirs, and there would have been a war between them and the Blacks, and Rhaenys would have been responsible for starting it.

Baela's dreads piled on her head make her look like's wearing a giant white turban.

r27 How is attacking the coronation not already a declaration of war? Luke and Jace are publicly at least her grandchildren and also her other grandchildren are betrothed to them she's pretty deep in team black. She then slammed through the floor in the middle of the ceremony killed a few hundred peasants and stared them down as a challenge. That's why that scene is so stupid its meant to be Lukes death that turns a war of words into a war. But what she did as much a beginning to a fight for the throne as if Prince Harry turning up in Westminster Abbey next year with an attack helicopter would be.

I really could have gone without the dead baby dropping to the floor like that.

That was the argument given on the show, r29.

Whether or not you think that's a good argument is another matter--and one about which, frankly, I don't care.

[quote]How is attacking the coronation not already a declaration of war?

Because they were holding Rhaenys captive. Rhaenyra had no idea what was happening. Rhaenys was simply escaping her captors. As Rhaenys tried to explain, she could have torched them, but that war would involve Rhaenyra (the person who should be sitting on the throne) and she couldn't make that call for her.

As we saw and heard: Rhaenyra wasn't going to start a war at all unless she was forced to so Rhaenys wasn't that off base.

[quote]Westeros is pretty much male preference primogeniture which certainly gives Aegon a case, and being king doesn't mean Viserys just gets to pick and choose his successor in the face of tradition.

At least they pointed out the fact that they're not going it alone. Alicent, a woman, is very much responsible for everything that's happening now. She didn't do enough, soon enough, to stop it. As was pointed out to her, she lets the men around her control her.

In the book, it's absolutely clear that Aemond purposefully kills Luke--he's goading into doing it by one of Lord Baratheon's bitch daughters, and supposedly finds the corpse of Luke, removes both his eyes, and gives them to the daughter.

This was actually a change from the book that I think is more interesting, though. It's clear Aemond wanted to terrify Luke and if he could take one of his eyes; but he was shocked when Vhagar killed Luke and Arrax. But since the dragons respond to their master's wishes he must at some level have wished that it happened, as the showrunners suggest in the "Inside the Episode" feature.

I thought Emma d'Arcy was quite good in this episode as Rhaenyra--she had to show a huge range of emotions in just the one episode, from tenderness with her sons, to the agony of childbirth, to despair when she had to cremate the stillborn baby, to pride when everyone bowed to her, to keeping the peace with her lords, to shock when Daemon attacked her, to cold vengefulness when she was told of Luke's death.

Guessing season 2 won’t start airing until.........January 2024?

I was trying to decide how I felt about changing it to Aemond accidentally killing Luke, but I think I like it. It drives home how dangerous dragons are, if you use a weapon that powerful you have to be aware of what the consequences could be. I also thought the dragon sequence looked great, I was nervous going into this episode but happy to see the show pull it off.

Also the table at Dragonstone was gorgeous, have to point that out.

Season 2 is scheduled to film March through June of next year r34. Season 1 took 6 months of post production, so it's definitely not going to be ready til early 2024 at the earliest.

I wasn't entirely sure what the scene with Daemon singing to one of the unclaimed dragons (i.e. Vermithor) inside the cave in the Dragonmount was supposed to be accomplishing.

Yeah I thought that scene was an odd choice r38. I guess the point was to drive home how there are unclaimed dragons laying about but it was a weird inclusion for the finale since it didn't really have anything to do with this episode.

So--they said tonight the Greens have three dragons, which i assume are Aegon's, Aemond's, and Helaena's.

The Blacks still have multiple dragons, but with Luke dead, their available riders are Rhaenyra (when she's over her miscarriage), Daemon, Jace, Joffrey (too young yet to fight), Baela, and Rhaenys. There are three unclaimed dragons in the Dragonmount, and three wild dragons nearby.

Danaerys was able to use all of her dragons even though she only rode one of them. Why can’t one or more of these people do that?

She's the only Targaryen to be able to do that, r41. Otherwise it's only one dragon per Targaryen. George RR Martin has never explained why it was different with her.

I'm also not clear if all the other Targaryens are as completely fire-proof as Danaerys was (remember she survived both her husband's funeral pyre and the big fire at Vaes Dothrak she started, killing the Dothraki warlords). If they are, while Rhaenys would have been able to torch Alicent and the other Hightowers on the dais, she would not have been able to burn Aegon, Helaena, and Aemond since they all have Targaryen blood.

All three dragons were birthed to Dany so it makes sense she had a unique bond with them.

But really an how is an untamed, riderless dragon going to behave in a chaotic battle. Need someone trying to control and guide them or they'd be likely to end up burning your own army. I think that's a more "realistic" way to present dragons.

And Daenerys being fire proof was a show decision in Game of Thrones r42. I doubt the writers here would have any characters as fire proof, they'll keep it as a thing that was unique to Dany.

Jesus the dragon sequences have been magnificent in this show. I felt real terror seeing how much bigger Vhagar was compared to Luke’s dragon. It was a like seeing a 727 being overtaken by a 747. Just devastating.

There is something interesting that almost no one on the Green side actually wanted to do any of this while they were doing it. Alicent had accepted Rhaenyas claim until she misheard the prophesy, Aegon had to be dragged kicking and screaming to his own coronation, now Aemond accidently killed his nephew. Only ones who've done anything with 100% intent so far are Otto and the dragon.

That scene with the dead baby was disgusting. Made me dry heave

There are no “right sides” and “wrong sides” in dynastic wars, there are only winning sides and losing sides, and if the war goes on long enough (for decades), even that eventually loses all meaning, because the “sides” fighting by the end are not the same ones who started it.

I didn't like the death of Jace's dragon. Couldn't they have just pushed Jace off his dragon?

r43, Dany's fireproof body originated in George RR Martin's original books, not on the show.

At the end of A GAME OF THE THRONES (the first novel), Danaerys walks into Khal Drogo's funeral pyre with the eggs, planning to kill herself, and then emerges alive with the newly hatched dragons. That's not something they made up for the TV series.

Season 2 will probably be late spring 2024. Post production will be long I bet with even more dragon fights and sequences.

Yes I know, however that was a one time magical event with the birth of the dragons r49. Dany is not fire proof in George's books, a fact he has said repeatedly (and I think he was annoyed with David and Dan for doing in the show, which is why I doubt they will do it here)

[quote]Danaerys was able to use all of her dragons even though she only rode one of them. Why can’t one or more of these people do that?

As R43 pointed out she "birthed" them and raised them (because she was magical) BUT if you remember, she ended up having to lock up two of them because they were all running around killing things and eating them as they saw fit. Then those two snapped at her and turned against her when she left them alone too long. The third dragon, Drogon, was running wild for a while.

It might be better to say that the dragons took what she had to say under advisement but as we were reminded at the start of the series, tonight with the dragon attack, and as she was reminded by Sir Jorah: you can't really tame them/control them.

If so, that might explain why only Dany among the Targaryens can control more than one dragon, since that event was magical.

Alicent screwed up by not following her father's advice about striking first, eliminating the Black team before they realized what was happening.

You obey your father all your life and at the most important moment, you decide do disobey him?

Rhaenys is a moron. She killed all those townspeople, and just blurted out the news, causing the miscarriage.

The book Alicent is apparently a lot more ruthless. someone on Reddit said by trying to make none of the women seem like villains in this they've unintentionally made them feel like pawns to the men around them.

[quote] Alicent screwed up by not following her father's advice about striking first, eliminating the Black team before they realized what was happening. You obey your father all your life and at the most important moment, you decide do disobey him?

Alicent made it very clear last episode, when she did not do what her father wanted at the Small Council meeting (which was to kill Rhaenyra immediately), and when she dismissed him disgustedly after he again tried to compare her to her mother, that she's in command now and considers him her hand and not her boss. That's why she and her father sent out separate parties to find Aegon in the city: Otto would have demanded Aegon to kill Rhaenyra immediately, but Alicent got to him first and made sure he offered terms first to Rhaenyra.

Alicent has definitely been made more sympathetic r56, but she isn't alone. Even in this episode Aemond was made more sympathetic because he clearly felt bad and did not mean to kill Luke.

A good TV adaptation should try to give characters more depth so that's fine with me.

I completely agree, r58.

While many think the Greens are the obvious villains the writers are definitely making them more sympathetic than they could otherwise be.

Of the Greens, Ser Otto and Larys Strong are pretty purely villainous, and Aegon is despicable (he is both a coward and a rapist). But Alicent, Aemond, and Helaena (who is mostly a pretty blank character in the book) have been made much more complex and interesting.

To balance that even further, they've made Daemon more villainous than he is in the book. He's chaotic and manipulative, but in the book it's not clear whether or not he murdered his first wife, "The Bronze Bitch," although he clearly does (in cold blood) in the series. And I don't remember anything from the book about him choking Rhaenyra as he did tonight on the show.

I could have done without three disgusting birth scenes in one season. Somebody has a fetish.

R57, yeah, and what's your point?

Her father's guidance made her queen. Her father's guidance woke her up to what's at stake in the succession. She sees the dangers thanks to her father, and her father had been planning for these dangers and had a "package" of actions ready for the moment. If she'd followed his advice, instead of suddenly deciding she's in charge and no longer needed to follow his advice, the Greens would have won.

It's because of Alicent's decision not to obey her father anymore that the war even starts.

R57, are you elaborating R54? Because nothing you're saying is contrary to R54? Otto wanted to strike first, and Alicent refused to follow his advice, after following his advice on the important stuff for her whole life to that point.

I don't get why people side with the Black team. Rhaenyra was villainous from about the second episode. She essentially coerced Criston Cole to have sex, lied to Alicent while swearing in the name of her mother, conspired to have her husband killed, and had the gall to present her Strong sons as legitimate. Come on.

Alicent has a 4th kid that they're apparently planning to introduce next season. Weird no one at any point has ever mentioned his existence.

I don't think he "felt bad" about killing Jace, R58. I think Aemond was having an "Oh, shit!" moment. He realized that he had gone too far, and had just started the war, big time. Because we know there's no way Raenyra will allow her son's death to go unavenged. And the boy made it clear, he was not a warrior but an envoy carrying a message. But Aemond's dragon was enormous! Damn. I sure home they Black Queen has a few great big dragons.

Problem with Raenyra is she wanted to use a scapel instead of bludgeon. Personally, now is when she needs to turn Daemond lose and let him hack off a few heads.

While it hasn’t been officially confirmed, all the sources suggest that Daemon is singing to Vermithor, a huge dragon that remained dormant in his lair on Dragonstone for decades, not allowing anyone to come near. So, who is Vermithor, aka the Bronze Fury? Well, Vermithor was the dragon of King Jahaerys, the predecessor of King Viserys, who gave the people the right to vote for who they wanted as his heir. Anyway, after King Jahaerys passed away, Vermithor refused to take on a new rider. Instead, the huge, almost 100-year-old dragon remained riderless and spent his days dwelling in his lair on Dragonstone.

We see Daemon enter the Bronze Fury’s lair, singing to him in High Valyrian in an attempt to tame him. It makes sense that Daemon was the one to risk his life to get Vermithor for two reasons. One, he genuinely loves Rhaenyra and would do anything to help her get her birthright back. And, two, he’s King Jahaerys’ grandson, which only strengthens the connection between Daemon and Vermithor and explains why he’d be the one to go into the lair to try and tame the Bronze Fury again.

For those who don’t know, Vermithor is a majestic dragon, larger than Rhaenyra’s Syrax, Rhaenys’ Meleys, or even Daemon’s Caraxes. The only living dragon larger than Vermithor is Vhagar, the female dragon ridden by prince Aemond.

Last ten minutes of the show was really great. Maybe not as jaw-dropping as Ned Stark’s death or Daenerys rising from the ashes with her three baby dragons, but it was the first time where the HOTD felt comparable to GOT.

I agree the dragon chase was beautifully done.

[quote] While it hasn’t been officially confirmed, all the sources suggest that Daemon is singing to Vermithor,

I use closed captioning, which did confirm that the dragon roaring at Daemon in the dark cavern was indeed Vermithor.

Great finale!

I wrote this on another thread about a couple of other episodes and a question about Helaena.

Some thoughts:

I thought the opening sequence was beautifully shot roaming through the castle (last week’s episode)

I hate the White Worm’s accent. She sounds like she has a speech impediment, lovely as she is.

Is Helaena married to Aegon? Are those little blondes their kids? I was confused at her toast on the previous episode when they were around the table and she said he(?) pays attention to her when he is drunk. Am I reading this wrong or is it incest?

I love Princess Rhaenys; she is so noble and wise. Great actress as is Alicent.

I don’t know who I loathe more: Larys or Ser Cole. That scene with Larys and the Queen’s feet is clever making his fetish, feet. It was surprising and creepy.

Ser Cole is just an arrogant , toxic, frat boy who would probably be working on Wall Street if he were alive today.

I love me some Lord Commander Westerling.

The cinematography/framing of the shots are fantastic like at the funeral.

Even the way they handled the final scene of Daemon revealing to Rhaenyra Jace‘s death was beautifully done. That scene could’ve turned into a melodramatic soap but it was handled with so much restraint and grace from everyone involved.

The weird thing about this season is it actually needed more episodes in the last half after the time jump. We needed to see more of the characters, particularly since I felt almost nothing with Luke Velaryon was killed--until this episode he ahd almost no personality at all, and this episode he had almost no time given to him to develop the personality. To the very last, I thought of him and his older brother as basically interchangeable (especially since they had the same color hair and bad late 60s hairdos that made them look like Cowsills). So I just couldn't feel all that bad he was killed. We also still know little of Alicent's children except for the simplest outlines: one's a pervy rapist, one's a bully, and one is a spooky Cassandra.

I hope over the next few season they slowly the story down and allow more time for character development. The showrunner said tonight in multiple interviews he's going to try next season to put more humor into the show, which should also help.

I liked when Aegon was being crowned king, there was coughing in the audience which made it feel more realistic.

R78 thanks, I had COVID.

This season has SO much promise. The finale was pretty great to me. So were most of the episodes after the big time jump.

I wish they would have, somehow, had the bulk of the backstory (Queen's death, male heir's death, etc.) in one episode. I feel the main part of story - the good part - was told too quickly because three or four episodes were backstory. But who knows. I could be dead wrong about that.

But I am glad I stuck around and watched. It's been worth it.

[quote]One, [Daemon] genuinely loves Rhaenyra

Yes, that was especially clear when he was choking her near to death.

I think they're going for the interpretation that while Daemon does like Rhaenyra. He likes himself and power a lot more and he's not going to let anything even her get in the way. One of the main writers seems to have a real downer on him so I'd expect the relationship to be very strained by his actions in s2.

Daemon is not a "nice man" and never was. The Targaryans have a history of mental instability over dreams and omens (among other things), so his rage about "Don't you DARE go down that road" was intense.

Also, Daemon and Rhenyra look like they are very hot together. They clearly keep fucking all the way through, given her many pregnancies. Who's to say this is not how they roll in bed?

He clearly loves her. He spends the episode doing anything and everything he can think of to help her, including going into the lair of a famously dangerous dragon who has refused any rider for decades. The final scene nicely demonstrated their total bond without even showing their faces. The show demonstrates in this episode that they are clearly 'one', without ever being soppy or pathetic about it.

[quote]He clearly loves her.

It may be clear to you. It's certainly not to me - nor to at least one of the HoD producers, apparently. I'm closer to R82's interpretation: Daemon loves himself. And I would say only himself. Rhaenyra is a means to an end for him.

[quote]Daemon loves himself.

I'd say Daemon loves himself first. Everyone else is either his enemy, he's indifferent towards or he cares for more than others.

Although he might love his daughters. We haven't seen much about their relationship with him.

[quote]Problem with Raenyra is she wanted to use a scapel instead of bludgeon.

This show is like the "Into the Woods" song, "Your Fault."

If Sir Otto hadn't of sent his daughter to woo the King. If Alicent didn't follow along. If the King had of been more proactive about installing his daughter as his heir AND keeping Otto away. If Daemon wasn't manipulating Rhaenyra ...

Add in the family surviving because they weren't torched, Jace's death by accident, Alicent being a shitty mother who covered up her son's crimes. They all fumbled their way to this point.

Alicent's gambit that if they offered Raenyra something she wouldn't go to war was very much correct until her own son took out Jace.

[quote]I don't get why people side with the Black team. Rhaenyra was villainous from about the second episode. She essentially coerced Criston Cole to have sex, lied to Alicent while swearing in the name of her mother, conspired to have her husband killed, and had the gall to present her Strong sons as legitimate. Come on.

She was a child. She didn't make his dick hard. He did like her. Cole is just a psycho who couldn't accept that their relationship would never be more than that. He didn't let it go for years. Alicent's father through Alicent was out to get her so she couldn't tell her the truth, only that she didn't sleep with Daemon which was true. Laenor, her husband, husband got his happy ending with her and Daemon's help ("Change" from the book.) Her husband loved the boys, knew they weren't his but didn't care. That was part of their arrangement. Even his father and Rhaenra have accepted the boys as part of their family. She was forced into a marriage with a gay man. They know she was. They got grandchildren out of it. They don't care how.

[quote] Cole is just a psycho who couldn't accept that their relationship would never be more than that.

That's your interpretation? I took it as he was massively guilty that he'd broken his celibacy vows. Which is why when Joffrey comes over and accidently rubs it in his face thinking he'd be on board he ends up hatecriming him, and then attempting suicide. He's now developed this notion in his head she's a vile succubus and the very devil etc. And I would say there was some coercion into the sex from his perspective. He's only about 20 at the start (why they've not slapped some makeup on him to age him is a weird choice btw) She's the heir to the throne and the kings favourite, while he could have been executed on the merest rumour he'd acted inappropriately towards her.

[quote]That's your interpretation? I took it as he was massively guilty that he'd broken his celibacy vows.

No, that's the actor's. Criston has a temper and he has a dark side. He was presented one way but that's not who he really is. He was intentionally meant to be shown as vindictive in the tourney at the beginning. That is how he was playing him and he (not really a spoiler) keeps on being an asshole.

A good person would have never broken those vows, and if he had that person wouldn't eventually help crown a traitor as a King. We saw Criston beat a gay man to a bloody pulp until the meat from his skull came flying out. We saw him push a man down so hard on the table it cracked his skull and then move on like nothing happened.

He didn't suddenly get this way because he "broke his vows." He got this way because he's not mentally stable and doesn't like it when he hears the word, "No."

Raenyra dodged a bullet.

R69 So what does that giant dragon eats in his lair? Spiders? No, seriously, what do the dragons eat? Cause they would run out of all the sheep, goats, cows and deer pretty quickly.

R65 When did she conspired to have her husband killed? Also, a teenager lying to her best friend and seducing an older guy isn't villainous. No one hold a gun to his head. He was a grown up man, she was a child. He should have known better.

A crocodile in the wild eats on average about once a week. A dragon being kept in captivity isn't burning a lot of energy r88, you shouldn't need feed them that often. It's only when they are out flying and burning shit that presumably they would need to feed more regularly.

But the show had a scene of the dragon keepers bringing a goat to.a dragon in the dragon pit, so we are meant to believe there is live stock raised as dragon food.

Isn't there a dragon called "Sheep Eater" or something?

There's no doubt in my mind Daemon loves Raenyra. Always has. He also wants to rule. With her, not instead of her. She trusts him. She knows she needs him to be able to have any muscle. And she believes she can rely on him. Because face it. If anything happened to her he could easily seize power. OF course now she has kids (4 kids left.) she has an heir. But Daemon isn't going to betray her.

I think one-eye is going to go home to find he started a war and is now called a kin-killer. Then, I predict he will at first resist the label but then say "fuck it" and kill his older brother, so that it is he who is leading the charge against Daemon/Rhaenyra et famille.

(No, I haven't read the book. I just think that would be a good turn for adding tension within the Greens AND for adding extra fire amid the Blacks)

Daemon certainly loves Rhaenyra in his own way, but he is not a good person. This is still the same guy that callously murdered his first wife.

I liked the choking scene because it reminded the audience not to romanticize Daemon that much, he is still Daemon.

As tragic as it will be to see all these dragons and their riders die that Vaghar scene made me excited to see the dragon battles to come. Though that one wasn't much of a battle. Arrax was sooo much smaller.

R94 He has a duality. He loved his brother the King too, but hated what he saw as weakness. His brother was a weak king who allowed problems to fester, and was all into his mysticism, and Daemon thinks almost every problem can be solved by violence and cunning. It will be interesting to see how Raenyra attempts to balance those impulses. Daemon is more calculating that he appears, and not nearly as impulsive as people think. But that Aura of the explosive, unexpected behavior serves him well with adversaries. He seems to have some basic, even primitive code that is pretty rigid when it comes to his family. No one fucks with his family. He knelt to his queen. And he meant it. He's not given to artifice. IMO he's not duplicitous in that sense.

I wonder if they'll keep this scene in? It sounds kind of out of character for show Aegon. But it also sounds hilarious given how they've altered Luke's death.

R97 Um...altered? It's pretty much the same

[quote]She trusts him.

It's pretty clear from the way she was side eyeing him in last night's episode that she does not entirely trust him.

R98 I meant altered it from murder to manslaughter. In the book he possibly even goes as far as cutting out Lukes eyes goes home Otto and Alicent freak out and Aegon throws a party. If they do that in the show its going to be Aegon leading a conga while his entire family including Aemond weep.

I asked this at r74: Do Aegon and Helaena have children together?

R101 Yes genius. Incest is a Targaryen tradition.

To be fair it isn't like Helena and Aegon had a marriage scene or any real scenes together as a couple. So if you aren't paying attention it's possible to miss they got married.

But we saw Helena playing with her two kids in episode 9, her and Aegon do have two children.

[quote]Do Aegon and Helaena have children together?

Yes, you saw them playing on the floor next to her when Alicent went to speak with her. They have three children but you only have seen two of them.

[quote] In the book he possibly even goes as far as cutting out Lukes eyes goes home Otto and Alicent freak out and Aegon throws a party.

This is the thing I love about this series: the books are what we're told happened but not from first hand accounts, the series is supposed to be what actually happened. That gives the writers some freedom to manipulate events. The public may think Laenor was murdered (possibly by his wife) but the show tells us that yes, the public thinks that but the truth is they helped him escape since his wife really did care for him.

R103 there was an extended scene of him whining about their betrothal.

R104 there's nothing about Luke's eyes being cut out. The show seems pretty accurate to the book in regards to his death.

Spoilers if you don't want to know what the revenge is...

Thanks r103 and r104. I did see the kids playing there but I just wasn’t sure as I had not seen or heard of their marriage, I haven’t read the books and I didn’t know the Targaryens (the whole lineage) are rooted in incest.

R102: 🖕🏻

R106, this is a really excellent article on who is who, who are their children and which dragons they ride.

Just to re-emphasize: She did not conspire to kill her husband. She conspired to fake the death of her husband so that he could flee to live life with his boyfriend, and she could be free to marry her uncle.

R108, yes they did intend to kill her husband. It’s just that his lover actually loved him and took the money and the man, the best option. There is nothing that’s suggests that the plan was anything more than a pay off for murder.

But this also presents a problem in the show about his dragon. The dragons bond with humans for each of their lives until the dragon or human dies. So, his dragon is sitting around unclaimed which may be a bit odd.

Put down the pipe r110.

In the show Rhaenyra and Daemon were always planning for Laenor to escape. Daemon literally kills a servant to use as a decoy body and they speak about how their enemies will think they had him killed and be scared of them but only they know the truth.

I have no idea how you got such a crazy idea in your head that goes against everything that was put on screen and said in interviews by people making the show.

R110, immediately prior to Leanor's fake death, we see Daemon seize and kill a random guard; that's clearly whose body was found in the fire instead of Leanor's. So, no, Rhaenyra and Daemon did not plan to kill her husband, they plotted to save his life.

I'm going to kill some innocent servant/guard so your husband can visit every bathouse in Essos isn't exactly redeeming.

For those of you who like the background music and the haunting woman’s voice that’s heard sometimes here it is. The woman’s voice starts at 0:52.

Rhaenyra really had a bad luck when it comes into her men .The gay husband faked his death to eloped wtih his boyfriend and the secret boyfriend Harwin Strong murdered. The one alive is the vindictive asshole Criston Cole and abusive uncle-husband Daemon.

I thought it was hysterical that Daemon kept insisting Viserys was murdered. Dude was a barely mobile Walking Dead extra the last time you saw him.

[quote]The gay husband faked his death to eloped wtih his boyfriend

That was the best relationship she ever had and she knew it.

Rhaenyra was forced to marry someone so she married a gay man, Laenor. He treated her as his equal. They had an open marriage that satisfied them both and they were both okay with. He gave her lover's children his name and treated them as his own. Laenor stood by her side until she let him go. He never betrayed her and always supported her.

That meme that depicted the two as Kurt and Rachel from Glee wasn't that far off base. They gave the girl a gay BFF and in the end she and the man she wanted to be with helped him escape with his lover and be happy.

She or Daemon could have easily killed him in this world which is why his mother still thinks she had something to do with it. That's their reality. It was a shock that both were so nice to him. (You could argue Daemon wouldn't want to piss off Rhaenyra since she did like him a lot but he liked his sister "enough" and apparently does love their children ... even if they cut that scene ... so I can see him helping instead of secretly taking them out because of that as well.)

So Rhaenyra was okay with Daemon killing innocent man?

R118, that's their reality. Same deal with Rhaenys bursting through the floor of the coronation, no doubt killing people, with her dragon. They don't care about "commoners" and "servants."

[quote] She or Daemon could have easily killed him in this world which is why his mother still thinks she had something to do with it. That's their reality. It was a shock that both were so nice to him.

One thing Eve Best said on the "Inside the Episode" feature that they should had clarified on the show is that Rhaenys thought all this time Rhaenyra likely had something to do with Laenor's death and so she was very suspicious of her, and so when everyone else took the knee at Rhaenyra's coronation, she did not, not certain yet whether or not Rhaenyra would be better for the realm that Aegon. (I think this is in part why she did not torch the Greens on the dais.) But then when she saw Rhaenyra trying not to rush to war in her council meetings, Rhaenys's education as a princess took the better of her and she realized whatever happened to Laenor, at this point she and Corlys have to think about what's best for the entire realm and especially all their grandchildren.

The showrunners needed to indicate all this more clearly actually on the show and not just on the "Inside the Episode" feature.

Why doesn't Rhaenyra just say the truth about Laenor to his folks?

Unless she's allowed to have two husbands, if it gets out that her husband is still alive, then her marriage to Daemon isn't valid, r ight? She needs Daemon a lot more than Laenor.

R121, Rhaenyra can’t be revealed to be a bigamist. The fewer people know her secret, the better.

R123 I doubt his parents would tell anyone. They are on her side. And would be even more on her side if they knew that she didn't kill him

There is zero chance Corlys would be okay with his only son shirking all responsibility and running around Essos partying with his boyfriend r121.

R125 And what exactly would he do? Tell the greens that his son is alive and Alicent isn't a murderer? (Well she kinda is cause she had some random servant killed, but he was a nobody in the GoT world, so no one cares)

R126 do try to keep up. YOu meant Raenyra, not Alicent who has enough sins of her own.

R127 Jeez, yes I meant Raenyra. You know what I meant. All these weird names are confusing

The dragon chase and fight was spectacular to watch. I do like the change from the book to have Luke's death wind up being a result of both Aemond and Luke losing control of their dragons. In the book it seemed clear that Aemond intended to kill Luke. The scene where Vhagar flies over Arrax was very well done. It showed just how huge Vhagar was compared to Arrax.

I do like that the showrunners have some freedom. Fire and Blood is told from third-person accounts. It's never presented as the actual history. It's interesting to see the tweaks the show has made, like Laenor secretly leaving with his lover.

No one is perfect in this world, but I do find myself rooting for the Blacks. Viserys was very clear that Rhaenyra was to succeed him and had the noble houses of the realm swear to back her. He had many chances to change this and did not. The Hightowers, mainly Otto, are power hungry usurpers. Aegon is not fit to be king, they know it, but they put him on the throne anyway. I think Rhaenyra would have been a decent ruler, but Luke's death is going to be a game-changer.

Forgot to add that I completely agree with R120. Too much is explained in the "Inside the Episode" features. They need to do more explaining within the show. I had no idea that was Vermithor Daemon was singing to. They aren't very good at identifying the dragons.

I highly recommend watching the show with closed captions enabled

"Vermithor roars."

It helps with dragons and the names.

To be fair, did anyone NEED to know it was Vermithor right now?

Daemon is recruiting a very large dragon to the cause. Cool!

Next season: We've got King Jaehaerys' mount, Vermithor on our side, everybody!

Agree r132, I don't see how they name of the dragon was really relevant, it was just Daemon visiting an unclaimed dragon. All the audience needed to know. But I do think it was an odd scene, felt like that time could have been spent elsewhere

R124, I agree. I have a feeling she’ll tell them at the very last moment she can. I also think it says a lot more if she tells them after they’ve already decided to support her and are working with her. It might be seen as manipulation (you want our support so now you’re lying) if it’s any time sooner.

Later on it’s, “I already have you at my side, you’re supporting me, you’re fighting with me and by the way - your son was alive and well the last time I saw him.”

And I think after spending time with her they’ll be more ready to believe her.

They may even bring Laenor back to the show, for all we know. The historians don't know about him returning to Westeros, but that doesn't mean it can't happen but no one recorded it.

To brighten up your day

I was bored by it. The calm, measured response to treachery isn’t terribly dramatic. The kid falling out of the sky wasn’t soul searing because the character was a void on screen.

Matt Smith has a lovely singing voice. I think HOTD is the first time I've ever found him attractive when in the past, he always looked too much like Glenn Close's Albert Nobbs to me.

I fell in love with his young Prince Phillip.

A handy Dragon cheat-sheet:

When is Season 2 ?

[quote]When is Season 2 ?

Sometime in 2024.

Such a long wait. I am impatient so I read up on line of succession.

I’m rewatching from the beginning because I need an escape. I love the attention to detail and the production values.

It was great watching Daemon take on the Crabfeeder himself. The music matched his run through the battlefield killing his enemies—and the running itself is what I liked. He moved FAST. I don’t know how many shows I’ve watched where there is a running sequence and they’re so slow (save Tom Cruise.) In The Hunger Games Jennifer Lawrence could barely move! So whoever was in charge of that sequence hired a stunt double who was fast and nimble (probably a Parkour dude) which really made Daemon heroic to me. That attention to detail is what I like.

The best running in movies is Robert Redford in The Sting, Dennis Weaver In Duel, the chase scene in Point Break and the supremely athletic dancers in the original West Side Story—especially Baby John.

That was one of the worst scenes. They would hit him with arrows, a million times. They turned him into some kind of a super hero

Do they ever explain why all of them have that white hair?

And, more importantly, if it's a family trait, why are people with white hair making out with each other...

The Valyrian people were famous for having "silver-gold" hair and "violet-purple" eyes which made them look different from other people r146. The show ditched the purple eyes idea.

The Targaryens and Velaryons escaped from Valyria before it was destroyed, so they have that coloring and look different than other people.

I wish we had more of the villainous Alicent. Criston and Alicent are too righteous for the world they operate in (especially with Cristons love of crushing skulls).

I haven't watched every episodes extra 'cliffsnotes' episode that explains the giant gaps in storylines, but are the balls in the plates of the small council ever explained? Are they relative to each position? They seemed so arbitrary until this last episode.