The Innocents (1961)

A beautifully elegant, yet sinisterly unsettling film

Deborah Kerr's best performance

Absolutely love this film. I have from my first viewing as a youngster. Unsettling, eerie, and lots of light and shadow effects that enhance the moodiness.

My parents took me to see this movie when I was 9. (I'm old.)

I'm sure I was bored to tears during most of it (and it wasn't even in color!) but the Quint/Miss Jessop scenes scared the shit out of me. My parents never let me watch anything scary so I have no idea why they took me to this unless they had no idea how unsettling it was.

I've seen it many times as an adult and I still find those scenes extremely creepy.

The kid who plays Miles is genuinely creepy

We can say it Deborah Kerr's best performance but I reckon that says more about this movie's sensitive, tasteful director.

Jack Clayton helped a supporting actress (Simone Signoret) get the Best Actress Oscar two years previously.

We know this woman was neurotic and the servants were foolish. So why didn't she demand the uncle take some responsibility? Presumably the uncle was sending her wages every fortnight.

This movie bores me. I've tried watching it many times but can't get into it.

Love this movie

Peter Wyngarde was arrested for restroom cruising, btw

One of the most riveting things about this film is that you see the ghosts—they’re there in even in broad daylight, you see one of Miss Jessel’s tears on the desk—yet your conviction that you can’t trust your eyes grows as the film goes on.

I think Henry James’ “Turn of the Screw” pioneered the now heavily overused trope of the unreliable narrator.

I think the opening scene with Kerr and Sir Michael Redgrave is my favorite scene. They are great actors just talking.

Michael Redgrave as the uncle is a total jerk in this!

R12, I think Poe, hard to take though he is, is almost the brand name in unreliable narration and made this an essential technique in horror.

R13 That absent uncle was obviously off elsewhere 'doing a Bunbury'.

[quote]So why didn't she demand the uncle take some responsibility?

The uncle in the novella has zero interest in the kids and hires the governess so he doesn't have to ever deal with them.

IIRC the governess in the James story was young and was made to seem very impressionable, so one begins to wonder if the ghosts were the result of this woman's overactive imagination as opposed to being real ghosts. The things that she sees tend to be preceded by information she's previously told: she hears an anecdote and then at some time later one of the ghosts makes an appearance. It's not a coincidence the housekeeper never sees what she's talking about because it's all in her mind.

I think the film makes an interesting decision by having the governess be an older mannered (essentially repressed) spinster because despite this change, she's basically not that far removed from the young governess in the book - someone whose heart flutters way too easily and who begins to imagine the most ghastly (and sexual) things about these normal bratty kids.

In essence, it's the governess who's the monster.

Truman Capote is saying the 41 year old virgin-governess is hallucinating with Empty-Vagina-Syndrome.

R16, it’s not nearly as good if it’s all that simple, and there’s a lot in the film that suggests that it isn’t.

The ghost's song—

R14 Why is Poe so hard to take?

I love the scene where she runs out into the yard with her hands over her ears, looking frantically at the trees, and it’s scored with that loud clanging electronic sound.

There are two scenes in this film I just love, and they both involve the ghost of Miss Jessel:

*Miss Jessel's ghost standing among the reeds next to the water's edge across the way from Flora in the house's park during the driving rain, as Flora insists there's no one there to the governess.

*The governess hears someone sobbing in the schoolroom, and goes in to see Miss Jessel's ghost crying at the desk. but the time she gets to the desk, Miss Jessel has vanished, but she's left behind a tear on the slate.

What I love about both these scenes are how gorgeously and mysteriously they're filmed--you never get a clear look at Miss Jessel's face in the entire movie.

The kids are great actors- what happened to them?

Martin Stephens was also in Village of the Damned with George Sanders and Barbara Shelly

Wasn't Ron Johnson in that, r24?

Great movie, and one of the scariest ghost films I can think of. The score and cinematography are out of this world. The moment where Kerr catches a glimpse of Miss Jessel passing by in the hallway while they’re playing hide-and-seek is one of the creepiest things I’ve seen in a film.

Not to try to derail this, but I had to read Reddit because DL was paid only most of the evening. So I was reading about unreliable narrators and weather or not Gatsby is black. Go!

R27 Please do not derail this thread. I do not think the narrator is unreliable here. I think Deborah Kerr's character is a represent spinster who was wound too tight and finally gave in.

Isn't this another example of unreliable narration? Isn't it the only time Hitchcock used it?

I reckon Hitchcock may have used unreliable narration back home in the 30s. That one about the boy and the saboteur's bomb on the London bus.

"The kids are great actors- what happened to them?"

Pamela Franklin went on to be a successful teen/young adult actor

The actor who played Miles only did a few more things. Stopped acting in his teens and later became an architect

Very creepy movie. The Others with Nicole Kidman felt like a spiritual sequel or could have existed in the same world.

The scene that always creeps me out the most is when Kerr is by the windows and the ghost of the former caretaker comes out of the shadows. So eerie.

Pamela Franklin went on to do another creepy film for the same director, Jack Clayton.

Everyone raves about Jack Clayton's 'Room at the Top' in '59 and 'The Innocents' but no one (me included) has seen this latter movie.

The bomb on the bus is the only thing I remember, r30, it was decades ago. What unreliable information did that have?

Oh, r30, and the movie's title *is* Saboteur.

^ I'm sorry I've forgotten. I'm an unreliable informer.

(The child's name was Desmond Tester)

Oops, r30, it's Sabotage. He gets blown up, right?

R33 she was also in several other pretty good horror films as an adult—"The Legend of Hell House", "And Soon the Darkness", and "The Nanny" with Bette Davis. She was also in a really weird B-horror movie called "Necromancy" with Orson Welles and a young (and extremely hot) Michael Ontkean.

R33 - In the 1970s Franklin also was also in the ghost movie The Legend of Hell House in which she played a "mental medium."

And around the same time she starred in a cheesy ABC movie-of-the-week called Satan's School for Girls.

Neither can hold a candle to The Innocents.

Oops - meant to say R32 re The Others

[Quote]Deborah Kerr's best performance

and it should have garnered her her 7th Oscar nomination.

Ironically G presented Kerr with her honorary Oscar. Like G Kerr was one of the most nominated performers who never won. And all of Kerr's 6 nominations were for Best Actress

O.K., let's see...let's look up Miss Pamela Franklin.

Great film!

[Quote] Great movie, and one of the scariest ghost films I can think of. The score and cinematography are out of this world. The moment where Kerr catches a glimpse of Miss Jessel passing by in the hallway while they’re playing hide-and-seek is one of the creepiest things I’ve seen in a film.

Along with 1963s The Haunting it's the scariest and best haunted house film. The Innocents is psychological horror, and the Haunting is parapsychological.

R33 I saw part of Our Mother's House on TMC a few years ago. It's not very good. I lost interest before the halfway mark.

"The Haunting" is disturbing because it's only after the fact that you begin to suspect that the only thing wrong with Hill House are the people who happen to be in it.

In The Haunting the parapsychologist picks the guests based on their experience with unexplained phenomena. All of the characters have a shared experience regarding the strange phenomena going on in the house.

In The Innocents the governess is the only one who sees the ghosts and it's likely they are figments of her imagination. She forces the children to face the past they are haunted by which surely includes some form of sexual interaction with Miss Jessel and Quint.

Michael Redgrave interviewing Kerr says Do you have an imagination and she says Oh. yes.

I love this film. Great for Black Cat season.

"So why didn't she demand the uncle take some responsibility?"

Before, then and since many men either by relation (next of kin) and or merely given custody by courts found themselves legal guardian of minor wards.

Many men felt just because they were now entrusted with said wards was no reason to discontinue their lifestyle. The Uncle in "the Innocents" was one such man. A young well off bachelor who lived for his own pleasure and pursuits. Caring for his young nephew and niece did not fit in with those plans, so the Uncle did what many Victorian and Edwardian parents or whatever did with children; left them largely in care of a litany of servants. Only the most serious matters would rate bothering such parents or guardians, and even then for some unless it was death or scandal they couldn't be bothered.

Largely because The Uncle was a wealthy bachelor who lived for pursuit of his own pleasures that foun

It is the sexual undertones that always get me when watching "the Innocents".

Petals falling off flowers is a long used metaphor for a woman's loss of innocence. We know from that bit early on upon Miss Giddens arriving that something was up.

Miles is evil personified, but not that of a child, least to Miss Giddens. The latter is convinced Quint has possessed the boy, but she also wants a bit of that for herself.

[quote]I think Henry James’ “Turn of the Screw” pioneered the now heavily overused trope of the unreliable narrator.

He also pioneered (or maybe one of the writers to do it most successfully) is that "ghost stories" can exist in both worlds: they're might be a supernatural explanation or there could also be a psychological explanation for what's happening. So it's never clear to the reader which explanation is the correct one or if it's some combination of the two.

The Innocents is a great movie - not sure why it's not played more (I think it's owned by Criterion), though I think you guess pretty early that the governess is nuts whereas it takes longer to get to that point in the book. But the weird sexual undertones with the kids are part of what makes it so creepy

It's years since I saw The Innocents but I would really like to watch it again, especially after reading this thread.

A long time ago (1992) there was a version of Turn of the Screw with Patsy Kensit that I recall as being creepy but I just checked out some reviews and most are 'it's so/so'.

And the novella, or perhaps this film, inspired The Infant Kiss, one of my favourite Kate Bush songs which revolves around the unsettling sexual elements you refer to R51.

Finally, the thriller And Soon the Darkness that R38 mentions was good - one of those 'little' films where the tension builds up. At least that is how I recall it though again the reviews are mixed.

I was a big fan of Pamela Franklin, as we're the same age and I first saw her in 'The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie' when I was an impressionable teen. I looked a lot like Pamela then, with dark hair and glasses. Ended up watching TPoMJB about eight times when it first came out (you could sit through a movie twice back then in small-city movie houses).

She was on a lot of TV shows in the late 60s/early 70s, and I saw quite a few of them (even Green Acres?), but then when she went into a lot of horror movies I stopped watching, because I scare easily.

Then she disappeared from public view for decades, and when I first got on the internet and began searching obscure people, I could not find out much about her.

I then read that she had done a DVD commentary for TPoMJB, and I eagerly rented the DVD. She was a bit reticent on the commentary, but did explain that she quit showbiz because she was treated disrespectfully working on several movies, being referred to as 'the girl' by one director. Also, maybe perhaps she got tired of all the horror. (I frankly don't understand how actors can work on some of those scary things without having emotional trauma from some of it).

TL,dr; she married a fellow actor in the early 70s, they settled down in LA with a couple of sons, and opened a specialty book store.

Towards the end of the film, you start thinking even the Uncle, who is only in the first twenty minutes, is in on it.

That is how good this film and Deborah Kerr's performance is.

[Quote]Finally, the thriller And Soon the Darkness that [R38] mentions was good - one of those 'little' films where the tension builds up. At least that is how I recall it though again the reviews are mixed.

R52 here's an excerpt from the NY Times review of AND SOON THE DARKNESS (1970)

'-But eventually, by mere repetition, the understated effects begin to look like poverty of the imagination. Then terror becomes a function of gratuitous camera technique, and danger the product of dishonest characterization.'

I agree. ASTD creates an effectively foreboding atmosphere and initially the film is compelling but it eventually becomes tedious.

Franklin really held her own with Maggie Smith in Prime of Miss. Jean Brodie.

After the two Netflix series, I watched both movies. The were both good, and this is personal preference, but The Innocents stuck with me more. While I thought it was all in her mind, I thought it was done ambiguously enough where you could interpret it different ways. The supporting cast might be better as well, and the characters seem more like real people that characters that are specifically meant to be a type.

It goes without saying, both movies are better than the Netflix adaptions, although I enjoyed Hill House although it imploded the last few episodes and did not live up to the slow burn that seemed to be building.

[quote]Very creepy movie. The Others with Nicole Kidman felt like a spiritual sequel or could have existed in the same world.

I like The Others; that beautiful, chilly lady of the manor is the role Kidman is perfect for.

Side Note: Martin Stephens, the actor that played Miles, is also in a movie called "The Devil's Own" (he's a teen at this point & kind of hard to recognize), but it's about this coven of witches in some rural english village that Joan Fontaine (with this helmet hair that *never*moves) stumbles upon after escaping from this voodoo spell in Africa. And the coven leader is the weird dyky sister of the local episcopal priest (who is more of a bit of an oddball himself). It's a hoot!

R58 I think I have seen that! Wasn't Alec McCowen in that too?

R32 - Completely agree with you re The Others. I rewatched it recently and it still pulls me in.

I've seen OUR MOTHER'S HOUSE and quite liked it. Clayton does manage to get terrific performances from all the children (including Mark Lester pre-OLIVER), but the one real flaw is that too many of them have different accents. Bogarde is excellent.

Clayton also directed Maggie Smith in one of her best films, THE LONELY PASSION OF JUDITH HEARNE.

I thought Pamela Franklin's career would have improved after JEAN BRODIE, but she somehow kept getting typecast in horror films. Perhaps if she'd stayed in the UK she could have broadened the type of roles she did in theater and on TV.

Dennis Schwartz Movie Reviews

Clayton and Bogarde felt the end result was a failure, and I concur. Though the macabre material is intriguing, it never is convincing REVIEWED ON 8/17/2009 GRADE: C+

[quote][R58] I think I have seen that! Wasn't Alec McCowen in that too?

Yes, he was the brother of Head Witch, though now that I think about it, he walked around with a priest's collar, but wasn't actually a priest. Very weird movie!

#*#*#*

This was one of my dad’s favorite films and mention for years what a good horror film it was. I saw it on television when I was around 5 years old and some of the images stayed with me forever. I haven’t watched it as an adult in over 20 years and need to again.

I want to do a double feature watch of The Innocents then The Others. 'Tis the season, after all!

It's the slow building of Miss Giddens prurient interests into what exactly happened between Peter Quint and Miss Jessel that always gets me.

Clearly the housekeeper nor anyone else wants to talk about the subject, and it really wouldn't have been one deemed tasteful for a proper lady to know about, but that doesn't put Miss Giddens off, she wants all the juicy dirt.

Peter Wyngardes was nicked for cottaging, and it cost him his career.

Alan Bates and Peter Wyngarde were flat mates for about ten years. They do say there was a romantic relationship, but who knows...

Love “The Innocents” — from the eerie song at the beginning (and no fanfare music over the 20th Century-Fox logo) to the unsettling finale, it casts a spell. Deborah Kerr and the children are superb.

I agree with the poster above who said that Pamela Franklin more than held her own with Maggie Smith in “The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie” — I wish she’d have been nominated for a Supporting Actress that year (she could have replaced Sylvia Miles). Her commentary on the DVD was interesting indeed. Last time I saw Franklin was on an early episode of “Fantasy Island”, where she played one of four former high school cheerleaders having a reunion. The other girls (pathetic that I remember this!) were Sue Lyon, Michele Lee, and Hilarie Thompson.

DL is surprising me! 70 comments and not one person saying a bad thing about this film. WOW! Let's keep this thread going.

There's something really frightening about a well done black and white movie. This, The Haunting, Night of the Living Dead, and Carnival of Souls are big favorites around this time of year.

Picnic at Hanging Rock, The Boy in the Striped Pajamas, and Requiem for a Dream the only other films that I can think of that really stuck with me YEARS after watching.

Thanks R64 You are awesome!

Lazy boy here but has anyone mentioned that the screenplay is by William Archibald (?) and Truman Capote.

Oh, R75. Three people have mentioned that.

And what about the director choosing the homosexual-knight to play the uncle and that ugly, homosexual lurker with the fake name to play the ghost?

And the director himself married a call-girl (who allegedly was the back-door mistress to a great Hungarian-British film mogul) and who later stripped off on the New York stage.

Outstanding!

R77 The opening credits are actually Deborah Kerr praying about what she did in the film. The opening credits are the epilogue.

This Lesbian goes into LOTS of analytic detail about framing and camera focus.

The talented Kerr was also terrific in The Night of The Iguana (1964)

Deborah Kerr was also outstanding in Otto Preminger’s “Bonjoir Tristesse”. She has a long, no-dialogue closeup near the end where she overhears a conversation that is heartbreaking.

Peter Wyngarde, he was the King of Camp. I remember watching a detective show he starred in. I can't remember the name.

I need to rewatch The Others. I enjoyed it, but watched it on either a dying TV or dying VCR and there were some clairty issues. I always felt that is the role that Nicole should have won her Oscar.

The only Kerr-Mitchum movie I disliked was 'The Grass is Greener', a sex-farce also starring Cary Grant and Jean Simmons. It was visually nice, but the coy banter was boring, even coming from such consummate professionals.

The Turn of the Screw is on Audible and narrated by Emma Thompson.

It is free if you are a subscriber.

Give it a listen and then watch the film!

R83 "The Others" is fantastic. Definitely one of Kidman's best films, and an outstanding ghost story in the same vein as "The Innocents". It has some unforgettable moments in it.

[quote]The Turn of the Screw is on Audible and narrated by Emma Thompson.

This is a very good reading of this book; Thompson's increasingly shrill voice really brings out the hysteria of the nanny

Martin Stephens in Village of the Damned (1960) wearing a small helmet under his wig.

The scene by the lake terrifies

I disagree with R79 I think the song before the titles is sung by Miles not a young girl as she says in the video.

UNHOLY

R90 The lesbian in that video at R79 has her biases.

Debarah Carr has a very recognizable and annoying kind of singsong minor key monotone voice. In all 3 parts. Her inflections lend an air of mystery to this Nicole Kidman film because Debbie's rhythm and tone are so unique. She sounds like she knows something. But then - you hear her talking this same way as a nun or while fucking Burt Reynolds on the beach. In other films.

R93 Could you please re-write your post after consulting the IMDB.

I know my film history R94. I am a DL semi regular poster.! Your welcome.

[quote] while fucking Burt

R93 There are no penises on that Hawaiian beach.

Pamela Franklin, Orson Welles, Michael Ontkean in Necromancy (1972)

Whilst fucking Burt Reynolds off the coast of Pearl Harbor, Debbie Carr had a monotone minor key moan. Happy now R96?

Franklin in The Nanny (1965)

Deborah Kerr with Sharon Tate in her first film role and David Hemmings in The Eye of the Devil (1967)

The Changeling

An excellent modern-day haunted house film directed by Peter Medak (The Ruling Class, Let Him Have It) George C Scott gives it his all. It's in a class with the Innocents and The Haunting

"One of the scariest movies ever made" -Martin Scorsese

R76 I did think the Uncle was gay. Maybe it was Michael Redgrave.

R87 I plan on listening today while I work. Thank you!

Did Deborah Kerr ever give a bad performance? I don't believe she did.

Probably not R104 Here she is in a change of pace in 1967s Bond spoof Casino Royale

Henry James was gay himself, makes sense that the Uncle might be a crypto-gay

R106, that’s certainly possible, but he’s not simply indifferent to the children: he’s very clear that he doesn’t want any communication about them. The governess is entirely on her own. It’s one of the many facts that could be interpreted several ways. He might simply be hostile to any suggestion of domesticity or responsibility. Or he might know that a few bad things have happened in connection with the children. And isn’t he responsible for some of the bad hiring decisions in the past?

R107 I also think it is part of eeriness- the governess is entirely on her own.

Pamela Franklin looks a little like Stockard Channing in the photo at R42.

If you have a Roku and want to see this movie, it's on their Classic Reel channel.

Classic Reel is $2.99 a month and has tons of classic films.

You might console yourself with that thought, R104, but she has certainly appeared in some messy failures; for example, R84 and R100 and this painful one—

I love Vacation From Marriage! Thanks for mentioning it!

The Innocents is one of my favorite movies. Even though I have seen it many times, I always notice something new. Based on the video shared above, maybe I have not yet seen it in its full wide screen glory ...?

Here is the Ingrid Bergman version. Since it is early TV it is not going to have the production values and suspect it will be a bit more theatrical, but it might be worth a watch. I had seen a couple of clips on YouTube, but have not watched the entire thing yet. From the little I have seen, the child actors in this version are not bad either.

^ The maid is played by "Isobel Epsom" (I bet that's a misspelling)

R114 Why waste time with this dreadful version when you can watch the definitive version? The acting lacks conviction and of course there's zero atmosphere.

^ I didn't even know about the Ingrid Bergman version. Thanks for sharing that

I kind of like this one, and the opening credits are witty and fun!

as the governess in The King and I (1956) dubbed by Marni Nixon.

[quote](I bet that's a misspelling)

Indeed it is, r115...

I love The King and I

R121 Deborah Kerr spent so many years in crinolines.

Which I suppose Peter Ustinov would think was a good things seeing as how he said she had such skinny hips.

Tonight I am going to watch The Innocents and then The Haunting! Spooky!

R110, I posted a YouTube link to a good quality rip of the Criterion transfer at R64.

This would be a good double feature with another beautifully shot black and white film, The Spiral Staircase.

I love The Spiral Staircase

Would love to hear a Pamela Franklin interview I’m sure she has a lot of stories from working with some DL faves: capucine, marlon Brando, Deborah kerr and Aaron spelling,

R82 Wyngarde's wigs like Christiopher Lee's were hideous

"Wyngarde" was the worst kind of closet-queen.

Unable to face the reality of his birth date and his birth name Cyril Eustace Goldburg.

The Night of the Following (1969) a dull kidnapping thriller with a poor performance from Brando. I believe it's the only time Brando and Moreno worked together.

Of course Brando and Moreno were fornicating 15 years previously.

Agreed R130. Moreno is the only good thing in the film. Franklin's role is pretty minor.

She's very good in THE LEGEND OF HELL HOUSE, a ripoff of THE HAUNTING that is spoiled only by a hammy performance from Roddy McDowall and a silly denouement. I read the original Richard Matheson novel HELL HOUSE and it was much more violent and sexual than the movie.

R132 Matheson's novel Hell House was written before Shirley Jackson's The Haunting, if I remember correctly.

Wrong. Jackson's novel was written in 1959. Matheson's in 1971.

R134 Ooops. Thanks for correcting me

R132 Pauline Kaels seems to agree with you. From her review of The Night of the Following Day-"Rita Moreno who plays a ticky little drug addict, gives an expert, stylized performance"

I remember a scene in the bathtub with Moreno nodding out.

Rita Moreno was also in The King and I

Rita Moreno is no Jennifer Lopez.

Moreno is a talented EGOT; Lopez is a no got

Moreno is not very talented. It's a huge myth. She's remarkably obnoxious though.

seeing is believing R140 Lopez is more a creature of myth and publicity

Who was in Monster-in-Law? Now that is a classic film to discuss on DL!

There's actually a filmed prequel to "The Turn of the Screw," "The Nightcomers," starring Marlon Brando as Peter Quint and DL fave Stephanie Beachman as Miss Jessel. It gives one possible explanation for what it was that Peter Quint and Miss Jessel did to corrupt the children, and also how they both met their ends (although the latter revelation does not accord with James's novella).

"The movie, which is quite bad under any circumstances, thus qualifies as a particularly listless and greedy parody, the sort that makes no coherent comment on the work it so freely exploits" -Vincent Canby NY Times 2-16-72

The film is cold and unpleasant and doesn't work as a psychological thriller or a horror film. Quint was a sadist as Mrs. Gross' comments in The Innocents makes clear but the Nightcomers dwells on the sadism.

Peter Wyngarde lived with Alan Bates, they were definitely a couple.

We just watched "The Innocents" because of this thread. It was well-made and well-acted. But I am sorry I spent the time on it as it was disturbing and left ne with a kind of sickened feeling. May have to watch some other spooky film now for some good Halloween scares.

R146 Try The Changeling an elegant, haunted house film like The Haunting and The Innocents but in color.

The Innocents sucked.

I think I will watch The Haunting next. Or maybe a comedy. Anything to clear The Innocents out of my head.

"The Haunting" is also pretty disturbing, but it's excellent. Avoid the remake at all costs.