HOUSE OF THE DRAGON, 10/2/22: "Driftmark"

My Lord Hand Job.

My sense is that the actual Dance of the Dragons (i.e. the war between the two Targaryen sides) won't start until the final episode of the season.

House a da Dragon.

I hope we get more of a sense of why Larys killed his father and brother last episode, other than just to make the queen owe him.

So far he seems like he's pretty much a case of motiveless malignancy--as if being born with a clubfoot just automatically made him evil.

Paddy Considine is such a good actor. I wish he had something to do besides be sick.

The sequence of Aemond taming Vhagar was gorgeously shot, with the full moon over the dunes.

However, it still remains impossible for me to believe these people could ever ride those enormous things that fly straight up and straight down.

SPOILERS!

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This was a very good episode. It was like Anthony's communion at the end of "The Godfather" intercut with Michael's destruction of his enemies--but here we have Rhaenyra's marriage pact with Daemon intercut with the cold-blooded murder of Laenor.

Now she's absolutely no better than Alicent--in fact she is worse. Alicent was not willing to take the lives of the Strongs, and even though Larys killed his father and brother for her, she was horrified; she was going to take Luke's eye because he took Aedmond's, but she did not know at the time that Luke was defending his brother and his cousins (in fact, it looked like Aedmond was about to kill Jace with the stone). But Rhaenyra arranged Laenor's murder in cold blood.

In the book it's never explained why Ser Qarl murdered Laenor, just as it was not explained who set the fire that killed the Strongs at Harrenhal. The series is spelling it out for us, but it's also making the reasons for the coming war between Alicent and Rhaenyra seem much more explicable. The scene of Alicent drawing Rhaenyra's blood at High Tide after Aedmond's loss of his eye is also not in the book (at least that I can remember), but it makes the stakes of the war seem more desperate and believable.

Laenor is moving to Fire Island?

More like Qarth, the Fire Island of Essos.

So who was it that was tossed into that fire?

It might have been the guard Daemon killed on the stairs.

So Daemon and Rhaenyra were NOT going to have Laenor killed, but arranged his escape from the marriage and the appearance of his death.

I guess the producers realized that if they killed Laenor after they killed Joffrey that the gay fans of this show would have had their heads on a pike, since he was the only other major gay character. But it's hard to believe Rhaenys and Corlys would not recognize their own dead son, even burned to a crisp.

This episode and the last have been the best thus far. I like how it's descending into evil and cruelty.

Season 2 and beyond are going to be so fucked up. Some of it will rival the worst stuff on GOT.

[quote]-but here we have Rhaenyra's marriage pact with Daemon intercut with the cold-blooded murder of Laenor. Now she's absolutely no better than Alicent--in fact she is worse.

R7 you might want to watch the ep again. Laenor is fine he sends his love. Rhaenyra just arranges for Laenor to fake his death and escape.

[quote]However, it still remains impossible for me to believe these people could ever ride those enormous things that fly straight up and straight down.

At least in this show we have saddles. Dany just riding bareback holding on for dear life was crazy.

I wonder are the riders strapped in or just holding onto the saddle?

The nighttime scenes with Rhyneara and Daemon, then the kid and the dragon were so dark I could barely see anything. Who felt this was acceptable to release.

Rhaenyra did still arrange an innocent person killed to substitute for Laenor to further her plan.

Yeah . . . The flying part doesn’t work for me. The dragons are good, the cinematography of the night-riding scene was beautiful, but I don’t believe the human riders are actually on the dragons.

I liked the Hail Satan/sealed in blood vibe of the wedding.

The bit about cripples being evil, or evil people being ugly, that’s a trope that should be retired a long time ago, but we seemed destined to see a lot more of it, since Alicent’s kids are to be ghastly in the next episode.

[quote]However, it still remains impossible for me to believe these people could ever ride those enormous things that fly straight up and straight down.

You are complaining about this in a world where Tyrion was one of the main protagonist on the last show? Where the hottest person in the cast is Criston who is now an evil little shit?

Seems like a reach, it's okay that Larys can be a disabled villain.

Whoops, meant to quote this bit of course

[Quote]The bit about cripples being evil, or evil people being ugly, that’s a trope that should be retired a long time ago

Alicent's kids are already ghastly enough. Aegon is a sour wench-chasing drunkard; Helaena is obsessed with bugs and spiders; Aedmond was going to murder his own nephew.

On some people's systems it was incredibly dark r17. I've seen screencaps on Twitter, it wasn't that bad on mine thankfully.

Laenor's death being faked is a change that I think was smart from the writers, him dying this episode would have felt wrong. And it isn't even necessarily a change, whose to say his death wasn't a conspiracy in the text. Given the way the book is a collection of accounts they could easily not know the truth. It works for me.

Is Haelana supposed to be special needs or some type of magical being who can communicate with bugs?

Last episode Haelana bumbled how he will need to lose an eye when Aemond was talking to Alicent about wanting a dragon. It's was a blink and miss it moment but the show seems to be saying she is prophetic.

What is the diagnosis of Alicent's daughter? Medieval autism, I would say.

Gay men sure don't survive long in this world...

So many on here were trashing the way Emma D'Arcy looked in the last episode but that was the point after she had a baby and was post childbirth and nursing. She looked very pretty throughout this episode.

I wish they would explain why Emma d'Arcy's nose is broken while Milly Alcock's was straight. All they need is a throaway line of dialogue: "Oh Luke, don't worry about having a broken nose--I broke mine riding my dragon five years ago..."

*throwaway

I can’t take it anymore. I can only continue watching it I wear a blind fold. These actors are so ugly.

I find the central conflict here to be much more compelling than the story that was told in Game of Thrones.

This show has a very real shot at being better than the original.

[quote] I guess the producers realized that if they killed Laenor after they killed Joffrey that the gay fans of this show would have had their heads on a pike, since he was the only other major gay character.

It’s hilarious that you think this ever crossed their minds for even one second. And it’s also hilarious that you think it should have been a consideration.

R7, too bad there is no edit function here because that was an exceptionally bad take on this episode. You got the whole thing wrong.

I’m deeply unimpressed.

I thought it was interesting they isolated all of the action on the island. That's rare for HotD and GoT--usually if they isolated the action it's in King's landing.

I don't know what they were thinking about shooting the entire episode in "day as night"... it looks HORRIBLE.

This night shooting was something GoT tried with the final battle at Winterfell against the White Walkers, and the fans hated it, so I'm surprised HotD tried it. I watched it on my laptop and so could easily turn off the lights, but when people watch something at home on a large screen they're unwilling to walk up and turn the lights off if they don't know how long the nighttime sequence is going to last. It looked beautiful with all the lights off (and it would have looked beautiful in a movie theater on an even larger screen), but I think it was a misjudgement to film it that way for a TV show.

The cinematography that really impressed me was for the wake. It was a really hard shoot to do because the action was confined to the outdoor terrace at a misty time of day, but it looked gorgeous.

The recasts for the Targaryen kids seem like... interesting choices. Aegons actor doesn't look visibly any older than Ty Tennant so I wonder why they even bothered. Meanwhile a roughly 18 year old Aemond now looks like a Bond villain in his mid 40s.

So Laenor found time to start a staged fight, and when the guard went to notify others, he threw someone in the fire, ran and hid with his bf, and then shaved off all his hair before his escape on a boat? Sure

I can only assume all the Targaryen kids were trained from when they were little how to ride a dragon--the commands, the way to get on a dragon and stay on. That would be the only way to explain how he didn't die.

[quote] I find the central conflict here to be much more compelling than the story that was told in Game of Thrones

I think it's more a factor of having one major plot occurring. GOT had about 5 going simultaneously.

Glad to know I'm not the only viewer incredibly annoyed by the consistently dark lighting. I have a huge TV screen and it does't matter what time of day I watch or whether the lights are on and off, it's almost impossible to see in certain scenes. The interior Kings Landing scenes are the worst, and I don't recall them being pitch black in GOT.

Did HBO blow the lighting budget on all that CGI?

R42, that was a running problem with GoT. They would spend an episode’s budget on dragons, and have to shoot the rest of the show using tight close-ups of the actors because they couldn’t afford more sets or action sequences.

R38 yeah the younger brother now looks quite a bit older than Aegon

The pig prank really aged him.

thinking about how rhaenyra made the unbelievably risky move of having multiple children (heirs to the throne even) with a man who’s not her husband fundamentally because she was lonely… torpedoed her entire line of succession with obvious bastards because her husband didn’t want her and she wanted to be wanted… and how that’s alicent’s problem with it, that rhaenyra didn’t forsake a scrap of happiness for her duty like alicent did, that she wouldn’t be miserable with her, that they weren’t trapped in loveless marriages together. lesbian divorce babey lesbian fucking divorce!!!!

[quote] They would spend an episode’s budget on dragons

You do realize those dragon's aren't real, right?

R47, and here I was thinking it must be costing them a fortune in goats to feed them! To say nothing of the dragon wranglers . . .

R29 "Arcy's is long while Alcock's is small"

Do you mean tall and short?

What a soap opera of an episode this was.

No, I was talking about their noses, r49. Sorry--I should have been clearer.

Whatever they are spending on the dragons, they are not spending enough.

The dinosaurs from Jurassic Park looked way more realistic. And that movie came out 30 years ago.

R38 Do you mean the next episode or? Cause I'm pretty sure the same actor that played him this episode also played him in the last one.

They are recasting the kids, you could see glimpses in the next episode preview. I'm not sure how big of a time jump we are getting, I'd guess about 5 years.

That photo at r45 of the Hightower clan is hilarious. The new Aedmond (with the eye patch) is sort of sexy, but the new Aegon looks just as much of a degenerate as the last one.

And the new Helaena looks like she has water on the brain.

The lighting was truly horrible.

That said, the last two episodes have finally made this series worth watching for me. I was riveted.

I have lusted after Matt Smith, but in this he looks like an albino salamander.

R42 I think it can be a lot more cost effective to lower the lighting when using a lot of special effects. There's not so much detail to have to etch out, and the nighttime scene was a bit of sex and lots of CGI dragon.

[quote] The nighttime scenes with Rhyneara and Daemon, then the kid and the dragon were so dark I could barely see anything. Who felt this was acceptable to release.

It kind of messed with my eyes. I could see some detail but I still found it frustrating to watch.

Did anyone else notice a lot of the long shots are blurry? I kept thinking it was my eyes that were suddenly losing focus when watching people across the room (in multiple scenes) but then as soon as they cut to a close up it was in clear focus.

There's a lot about how this show is made that I really don't get.

I did follow the story this time, however. Last week, half the episode was lost on me.

So it's okay to complain about skin color and hair color so long as people you're complaining about have white skin and white hair? but not otherwise.

Not only is the lighting terrible but so is the sound. I ultimately had to turn on the subtitles to figure out what they were saying. Turns out I was missing a ton

So what’s the deal with the book this is based on? Is it a novel, or some sort of history book?

R61 Martin wrote it like an unreliable history book from various perspectives like the maesters and Mushroom a dwarf character loyal to Rhaenyra.

R61, Martin's book was inspired by an English civil war that took place between 1135 and 1153 and was called "the Anarchy." Many other novels are based on this time period, including The Pillars of the Earth by Ken Follett. Martin, of course, throws dragons into all of this.

Fans did angrily complain about the lighting of last night's episode. HBO defended it as a "creative decision."

They should have kept the same actors. The new actors add nothing.

I do like the new Alicent

Wake me up when they show Ser Criston Cole’s cock.

[quote] They should have kept the same actors. The new actors add nothing.

Agree!

Game of Thornes was smart by having the original child actors age into their roles each season. With so many different actors playing the same characters, HOT D is starting to feel like that bloated, confusing Netflix series "Dark."

R68 But they jumped 10 years and in the next episode additional 5-7 years. How would same actors play teenagers and then in next episode, 30 year olds.

I had no problem with the lightning. I saw everything just fine.

Miguel Sapochik was the director of this episode. He also directed GOT's "The Long Night" (the one with the massive battle scene against the White Walkers). He made those scenes unbelievably dark as well and got appropriate stick for it. He's getting a reputation for doing these sorts 'unlit to point of blackscreen' scenes.

I liked Dark R68 and did not find it confusing. I thought the beach at night scenes were beautiful in this episode. We just got a new tv two weeks ago, so maybe that helped me be able to see clearly.

The dark was weird. In one second, it's bright daylight. The next second, in the same scene, a dark scrim comes down on everyone. It's still the middle of the day and everyone is still outside.

Those child actors were already adults. They were just playing teenagers. I lost interest when they changed the girls but not the men.

They recast the characters who were teenagers in episode 1-5. That includes Laenor, a guy. They just didn't recast anyone who was already an adult.

You can't have the original actors for Rhaenyra and Alicent playing the mothers of a 20 year old.

But Sir Crisco did not age at all.

[quote] But they jumped 10 years and in the next episode additional 5-7 years. How would same actors play teenagers and then in next episode, 30 year olds.

Maybe not do so much time jumping between episodes. I like that GOT took its time unfolding its story season after season. But I understand that with HOT D, so much of the story happens during the development of these characters from teenage years to adulthood, including their children, so the time jumping is necessary.

It's just that I become so invested with the actors from the earlier episodes that when there's a time jump with new actors, I feel like I have to become reacquainted with the characters all over again.

Criston Cole was not a teenager, he was already an adult when we met him r76. Their logic of who they recast was consistent.

I mean the writers could have started the show with Rhaenyra as an adult already and not have done episodes 1-5, but they made the decision the audience needed that backstory of when the characters were younger.

Overall I still think it was the right call, even though all the time jumping comes with challenges.

I get confused by all the names--So are so similar

R79, I think Martin did that to give it "authenticity" - wealthy/aristocratic families constantly recycle names. But it's not very helpful.

Using day for night wasn't a good idea.

The chemistry between Daemon and Rhaenyra is not as good as it used to be with the younger actress.

I agree. I also felt the younger actress had more vulnerability than the actress who plays Rhaenyra as an adult.

I love the beach night scenes—absolutely beautiful. The dragon flying sequence as well. I had no problem seeing them.

Sir Criston is no knight of honor, integrity or presence. He just stands there looking angry. The guy from Outlander (McTavish) is a better knight and should have more to do.

Actress that portrays Rhaenyra looks a lot better with that white wig than her usual hairstyles.

R83 The character of Rhaenyra has matured and hardened over the 10+ years of the show’s timeline. She’s learning how to fight for her and her children’s position as heirs to the throne. That fight is only going to get more bloody. It’s right that the portrayal of this adult Rhaenyra is less vulnerable.

Alicent the Innocent clutching her pearls over Larys the Troll’s offer to exact revenge, an eye for an eye, when she attempted to do just that was highly amusing. In the next breath she’s telling him that he should stay close because she might be needing his particular level of service in the future. Something she can’t ask of poor old Cockblocked Criston. She’s the real villain in this soap opera. Daemon is Rhaenyra’s Luca Brazi.

The changing of the actors is a hindrance to getting close to the story, for me.

Not for me

[quote] Daemon is Rhaenyra’s Luca Brazi

I hope you’re right. She’s going to need it with the Hand, Clubfoot and Maleficent.

I'm guessing all posters bitching about the actors changing must've never been soap opera fans.

I wasn't devastated to miss more incest due to bad lighting, but the story actually is getting interesting so I'm not critiquing much with the last two episodes.

Don’t forget the putty-faced sprat who lost his eye for the love of a dragon, r90. I can’t remember his name. The only thing that comes to mind is Calgon. He’s ten years older and looks positively demented. Demented, I say!

Yes, but we were invested in the characters that we were introduced to in the first five episodes, r91. It was jarring to see them seven years older and looking rather rough. The teenaged Rhaenyra was a saucy wench and more than up for a bit of wicked fun with anyone and everyone. We liked her. The incestuous flirtation with her uncle was icky but marriage between relatives was the norm among the ruling families. Even Alicent the Intolerant was likable in her way. Who knew that Criston was going to go into a murderous rage over losing his cherry and betray his future Queen? I wanted to see how that all played out in real time.

[quote] I had no problem with the lightning. I saw everything just fine.

Welcome, Bat Boy, to Datalounge.

I just realized that Queen Alicent is played by the same actress from Bates Motel! The girl with cystic fibrosis who liked Norman. Weird.

[quote] but marriage between relatives was the norm among the ruling families.

This isn’t really true. Incest was a Targaryan thing. It is frowned upon by everyone else. Which is why Cersei and Jamie were such a scandal 200 years later.

The Targaryens need darker eyebrows like Khaleesi had. That’s why they look so washed out.

This series shows several murders every week, with very realistic bloodshed, heads smashed, people burnt to ashes, etc. but fictional relatives having sex? outrageous!

R93 Maybe it's me, but I'm still interested/invested in the characters, just not the actors playing each part. The young actresses playing Alicent and Rhaenyra didn't work well IMO, and it's only been really picking up with the time lapses. There's 200 years to the fall of the family and without the wit, intrigue and vast array of storylines, in its predecessor, GoTs, casting changes were a good move (for the most part) in pacing this while keeping it engaging.

The incest stuff is vile; I turn the channel when the show goes down that evil road

Everything's Coming Up Alicent!

R100 should probably just stick to Disney shows.

In the books they explain that after the conquest of Aegon the 1st, wars were fought in Westeros because the Faith of the Seven objected so strongly to incest and did not want incest permitted for anyone.

In the end, a compromise was struck: the septons were allowed to prohibit incest among the rest of the people, but they indulged an idea of Targaryen exceptionalism so the ruling family could be allowed to continue to intermarry.

Gross

I don't know if anyone caught it, but the knife with which Alicent cut Rhaenyra is the same dagger that Arya used to kill the Night King.

r103 It essentially sounds like the Ptolemies in Egypt. The Greeks never really got over their opposition to incest, but because the ruling family were seen as gods and the king should have a s pure a bloodline as possible they managed to sidestep the prohibition and at worst people saw it as a familial quirk. And they didn't even have dragons to justify their oddness.

R105 are you sure? Didn't Arya use the dagger/sword Jon Snow had made for her?

[quote]Didn't Arya use the dagger/sword Jon Snow had made for her?

That was Needle, which was a long thin blade. Watch the scene, it's the same dagger that was used in the attempt to assassinate Bran.

Yes the dagger from this show with the prophecy is the dagger that Arya ends up killing the Night King with.

Of course the prophecy doesn't really work for Game Of Thrones since the two Targaryens are Jon and Dany neither one stopped The Long Night.

R108, now that you mention it, someone tending to Rhaenyra emphasized how cleanly Valyrian steel cuts, so she didn't have to worry about the wound becoming infected.

Am I the only one who can't stand Criston?

I hate him too. He adds nothing to the series.

I agree. He's like a cigar store Indian, just standing around like a dumb cow.

The audience isn't supposed to like Criston, they introduced him post time-jump with calling Rhaenyra a spoiled cunt.

And his purpose is that he is an important ally for Alicent r112.

Criston is hot, tho.

He is

He his the hottest guy on the show. But now his character is an asshole.

He needs to show more of his body..... peen in particular (c'mon, Alfie/Theon did it!)

I am actually going to miss this Aegon. He just wanted to drink and cum. Genuinely the most relatable character in the entire show.

I agree r118. I think Ty Tennant was great as Aegon, I'm going to miss him. He was also already 19 while filming so I don't know that he needed to be replaced. Aegon is going from around 14 this episode to around 20 next episode, so r he was already the right age.

But I think those younger characters are being replaced by people in their midtwenties playing younger.

SPOILER

There's a rumour going round that next week that Aemond ends up raping a maid. So to be fair Ty may have been recast at the right time. I know Aemond's actor did a post the other day saying he was glad he didn't end up getting an unnecessary twitter lynch mob like some of the actors from GoT ended up getting. But yeah I'll miss the walking alcoholic meme but at least Tom Glynn-Carney is easy on the eyes.

Point taken, r96.

I enjoyed the past two episodes but there is going to be another major time-jump and more casting changes. Which means I’ll be back here next week bitching about it. And them.😈

With all the names being thrown around on this thread, it just confirms I don't know anyone's name in the show, just what they look like.

Alicent's kids are Aegon, Helaena and Aemond.

Rhaenyra's kids are Jace (Jacaerys), Luke (Lucerys) and the little one Joffrey who is still too young to be much of a character..

So that's three Joffreys so far. The annoying evil one from GoT, the gay one that was killed few episodes back, in the same episode he was introduced and the baby Jeffrey. I like that there are different characters with the same name. That never happens in movies and TV shows, yet in real life everyone knows a bunch of people that share the same name.

R124, you assume people remember who Alicent and Rhaenyra are

In season one of Game of Thrones they had three principal actors cast as Cersei, Ned Stark, and Robert Baratheon, the King . To a lesser degree, Aidan Gillen as Little Finger, and Conleth Hill as Varys, Michelle Fairley as Caitlyn Stark were familiar. The cast was international, and mostly familiar. Almost everyone knew who Sean Bean was. The younger actors, like Maisie Williams, Emilia Clark, Kit Harrington, Richard Madden, John Bradley and Sophie Turner were new faces. But the point is, it was easy to get invested in Sean Bean as one of the good guys facing peril. No one really expected them to kill him at the end of Season 1.(Unless you'd read the books.) But in this prequel, I have yet to be invested in any of them. They seem to be going through the motions as characters, and I see no passion coming from the actors. And honestly, the Targaryen kids are unlikeable.

What episode are we up to?

I like Lord of the Rings Power of the Ring much better.

I’m behind on that show

Same, R123. You're not alone.

I WANT A SINGLE PAGE WITH PICTURES OF EACH CHARACTER WITH THEIR NAMES UNDERNEATH.

I need a "cheat sheet" to refer to, dammit.

R127 international? They were all British. And Sean Bean was the only famous actor among them. House of the dragon had Paddy Considine and Matt Smith. But GoT had a huge cast. HOTD has only a few main characters and a few supporting ones

Peter Dinklage wasn’t ultra-famous but he was decently well-known at the start of Game of Thrones.

Nicolaj Coster Waldau is Danish, Conleth Hill and Aiden Gillen are Irish. Sean Bean and Mark Addy and a few of the others Lena HEady, Michelle Fairley are not unknown , they are well known in the UK and Europe. Yes, Bean was the most famous, but the others weren't chopped liver.

Rhys Ifans and Olivia Cooke are also somewhat famous actors.

[Quote] I like Lord of the Rings Power of the Ring much better.

For me, it’s the reverse, I like House of the Dragon better. I hate those Hobbit-like creatures in Ring

R136, Rings of Power is better than House of the Dragon in every single imaginable way... casting, writing, directing, effects, story, plotting, editing, sound design, set design, costume design... Rings of Power is a STUNNING achievement, while House of the Dragon is basically a little foot-note to Game of Thrones.

R137 Then why does HOTD has so much better reviews by both critics and fans? Rings of Power is kinda for the children.

Who you gonna believe? Reviews or your own good judgement?

[quote] With all the names being thrown around on this thread, it just confirms I don't know anyone's name in the show, just what they look like.

The major characters thus far:

TARGARYENS:

*The long-suffering King VISERYS Targaryen (Paddy Considine), king of Westeros's seven kingdoms, and suffering from a disease like leprosy. He lost his first wife Queen Aemma (by whom he had one daughter, Rhaenyra) when she died giving birth to a song, who lived only one day. He is now married to Alicent Hightower.

*His mercurial and self-centered brother, DAEMON Targaryen (Matt Smith)

TARGARYEN-VELARYONS:

* Princess RHAENYRA (now Emma d'Arcy) Targaryen, Viserys's oldest child by his first wife the late Queen Aemma, the designated heir to succeed him on the Iron Throne, previously married to Laenor Velaryon, and now married to her uncle, Daemon Targaryen

*RHAENA and BAELA Targaryen, the daughters of Daemon Targaryen by his first (now dead) wife, Laena Velaryon

*JACAERYS (Jane), LUCERYS (Luke), and JOFFREY Valeryon, the three sons and heirs of Princess Rhaenyra. Their ostensible father was Rhaeynra's first husband, the gay (and now departed from Westeros) Laenor Velaryon, although secretly they are really her sons by the former late head of the City's Guard, Ser Harywn Strong

VELARYONS:

*Princess RHAENYS Velaryon née Targaryen (Eve Best), the patient and wise cousin of King Viserys. She had a better claim to the throne than he did but before the show began the nobles of Westeros deicded the throne could not be handed to a woman, so she was passed over in favor of her cousin Viserys, whom she gets along with very well. She is married to the Sea Snake, Corlys Velaryon, and the mother by him of the late Laena Targaryen and the now-disappeared Laenor Targaryen,

*CORLYS Velaryon (Steve Toussaint), aka the Sea Snake, the king's Master of Ships and the lord of the island of Driftmark. He is the husband of Rhaenys Targaryen, who had by him Laenor and Laena Velaryon.

*VAEMOND Velaryon, Corlys's brother, and the potential heir to Driftmark

HIGHTOWERS and HIGHTOWER-TARGARYENS

*Ser OTTO Hightower (Rhys Ifans), the scheming hand of the king, and brother to the Lord of Oldtown

*Queen ALICENT Targaryen, née Hightower (Olivia Cooke): the beautiful daughter of Ser Otto, and the second Queen of King Viserys (and as such, the stepmother to her former close friend Princess Rhaenyra). Although she started out as a sweet if overly compliant character, she has become embittered and twisted through the years because of anxiety of her and her family's fate should Rhaenyra inherit the Iron Throne, since her sons are threats to Rhaenyra's claim on the throne.

*Prince AEGON Targaryen, the oldest son of Viserys and Alicent. His existence is a direct threat to Princess Rhaenyra's claim to the Iron Throne, since even though she was declared Viserys's direct heir, women are not supposed to inherit the monarchy according to Westeros's customs. He loves wine and is a bit of a pervert.

*Princss HELAENA Targaryen, the daughter of Viserys and Alicent. Although beautiful, she seems to be quite strange, and has a fascination with bugs and spiders, and an apparent gift (unrecognized as of yet) for uttering prophecy.

*Prince AEDMOND Targaryen, the second son of Viserys and Alicent. Without a drgaon in early childhood, he claimed the dragon of Laena Velaryon Targaryen after her death. In doing so, he incurred the anguish of her daughter Rhaena Targaryen, who had wanted to inherit the dragon, and his nephews Jace and Luke Velaryon, who are cousins of Rhaena . In the ensuring fight with the newphews, Aedmond lost an eye. (cont.)

(cont.) OTHER MAJOR CHARACTERS:

*Ser CRISTON Cole (Fabien Frankel), a handsome and gifted knight who is a member of the king's Guard, and personally sownr to protect Queen Alicent. He had previously broken his chastity vows to fuck Princess Rhaenyra (at her invitation), but then he felt betrayed when subsequently she would not run away with him to Essos as his bride. Embittered, he now secretly schemes against Rhaenyra and her children. (Most people seem to agree he is played by the hottest actor on the show.)

*LARYS "Clubfoot" Strong (Matthew Needham), the Lord Confessor to King Viserys. Like Ser Criston, he is also backing the claims of Queen Alicent's children to the Iron Throne. He arranged to have both his father, the previous Hand of the King, and his brother Ser Harwin, the lover of Princess Rhaenyra, horrible killed in a fire; he is now lord of House Strong and master of the castle of Harrenhal, the largest castle in Westeros. So far he seems the most evil of all the characters.

At this point in the series, the two sides contending to inherit the Iron Throne are "THE BLACKS" (named for the black-and-red clothes standard of the Targaryen family) led by Princess Rhaenyra (the designated heiress), her husband Daemon Targaryen, and the Velaryons, and "THE GREENS" (named for the green standard of the Hightowers), led by Queen Alicent and her father Ser Otto Hightower, who favor her son Prince Aegon to inherit the throne from his father.

So far neither the Blacks nor the Greens have moved decisively to claim the throne, but Viserys's death seems to be oncoming, and will result in a fierce war between the two sides.

[quote] when she died giving birth to a song,

"son," not "song"

I would pay you if I could, R141.

Thank you for that!!

I agree Ser Criston was the most attractive, but I can't stand him since he killed Joffrey. I hope he end up as a dragon's snack.

He’s the only looker. GoT had Jon Snow, Jaimie Lannister, Robb Stark, Ned Stark, Loras Tyrell, Tormund Giantsbane, Edmure Tully, Oberyn Martell, Little Finger, Renley Baratheon, Viserys Targaryen, Jorah Mormont, Roose Bolton, Ramsay Bolton (if you like elfish men), Benjen Stark, and Stannis Baratheon. I’m sure I’ve missed some.

How could I forget Khal Drogo and Daario Naharis (both).

Bron was kind of hot in a coarse crude way.

And Hodor for the chubby chasers, R145.

We can't forget them. Inclusivity and all.

Yes. He had beautiful blue eyes.

[quote]And Hodor for the chubby chasers

Better yet, Samwell Tarly.

So we accept all the incests that go on in the show ?

Yes, it's very realistic.

#teamAlicent

Fuck that slanty-eyed incestuous whore and her bastards.

I've never read the books but are there examples of when incest goes wrong in the books? Are there any babies that have the physical problems associated with incest? Jamie and Cersi's children seemed to be fine

It's been years since I read the books but I seem to remember he used the constant inbreeding as an excuse for why the later Targs were mostly batshit insane.

R154, I seem to recall their first child being a bit . . . off. Actually, I think incest doesn't instantly produce genetic errors. It's repeated inbreeding that's the problem.

The first kid of incest can be screwy. Depends on how the chromosomes line up

It is cumulative though. In cases of cousins having children the risk of defects is only something like 0.05% more than normal cases and adds up over the generations. Which is a major issue in the European Muslim community these days due to arranged family marriages.

Though you can be lucky and escape it. Cleopatra was descended from 300 years of brother sister marriage and had half the normal number of grandparents due to her family tree collapsing into a twig but was apparently not hideous, no obvious health issues and notably intelligent. Granted the rest of her family were mostly overweight murderous lunatics.

It’s relatively boring

R139 My own judgement. HOTD is way better.

One of big tasks with arranged marriages are that parents delve deeply into the genetic and social backgrounds of potential mates to be assured the offspring will be healthy and smart

I'm remembering that conversation Tyrion had with Jon in the final season. Or maybe it was Varys. Talking about with the Targs, you never knew whether they would turn out wonderful like Rhaegnar, or batshit like Dany....or her father. But it wasn't attributed to them incesting.

Even though the world of the Targs isn’t Earth, it’s analogous enough to our Middle Ages to assume that people in that world didn’t understand human genetics the way we do now. It also seems obvious enough that in their world, as in ours, marriages among the aristocracy were made to ensure wealth and power, and, among royals, to preserve “royal blood.” No one ever thought that some outside blood could occasionally be helpful. Our European royal families were riddled for centuries with problems (craziness, the Hapsburg lip, hemophilia) due to inbreeding.

The original GOT had so much more intrigue and smart dialogue.

The incest is repulsive

R154: While it’s not explicitly attributed to incest, some of the children are deformed when they’re born. In the book Fire & Blood, Rhaenyra and Daemon have a daughter who’s deformed when she’s born.

Incest isn’t inherently bad but if there is a genetic defect, there is a higher chance it gets passed on.

And Gendry, r146! Talk about a pair of arresting blue eyes. Paul Newman level gorgeous peepers. He was the total package. Handsome, sexy, with a bod to rule them all.

FINALLY! A cheat-sheet so I can keep the names and faces straight!

I don't get it, r169.

The actor who plays the one with the eye patch has gone full tit 'n' minge before.

The past few episodes have gone through great lengths to imply Daemon is likely bisexual. If that’s the case, I can’t wait to see more flirting between him and Aemond…although the window of opportunity is quickly closing (SPOILER ALERT: The likely events of Episode 10, in which a member of “The Blacks” is killed, causes an irrevocable rift between the 2 sides.)

[quote] The past few episodes have gone through great lengths to imply Daemon is likely bisexual.

it has? Could you explain the evidence? I missed it somehow, and I thought I watch this show pretty closely.

I saw no flirting between him and Aemond, just suggestions they want to fight, which to me is sometimes flirting but usually not.

The only gay thing I've seen with Daemon this series is his scene with Laenor's bf Qarl was flirty. But he was trying to seduce him into supporting their plan so that made sense to me.

Anything else is reaching IMO

So is Aliself Righteouscent over Rhaenyras self serving bastards because she has some legitimate incest babies with old Uncle Daemon?

R175 Who? What?

I’m not seeing it. I thought it was implied that he sometimes has a problem achieving lift-off but not because he’s into men. I think he really loves Rhaenyra but might be missing his concubine. Or is he? Why would she have a spy in the Red Keep unless it’s at Daemon’s behest? Did one of her whores give old Vaserys an overdose of the milk of the poppy to facilitate his wife’s ascension to the Iron Throne?

Uncle/niece combos happen a lot in real life...but definitely done in secret.

Also, is the spy sleeping with Aegon and perhaps slowly poisoning him with wine? Must go back and rewatch the episode again.

R177, to me, the existence of the spy suggested that an outside party might have an interest in the goings-on at the castle.

Larys? But he has the Queen’s confidence. Although she’s guarded and keeps things close to her chest and is smart enough to know that he is capable of anything. Patricide being the least of it. It seems the one she trusts the most is Criston. Someone from Essos who has guessed Laenor’s true identity perhaps? So much bloody intrigue! I love it.

[quote] Our European royal families were riddled for centuries with problems (craziness, the Hapsburg lip, hemophilia) due to inbreeding

It looks like the latest Aemond might be afflicted, but to a lesser degree.

Aemond:

I know this was discussed before by me and others, but I still wish they had cast the older counterparts to look at least a little like the younger. Rhaenyra’s ski jump nose to a hook nose with a bump; Aemond’s round, doughy pink face is now cut like a laser with a pointy chin. I think the casting people should’ve tried harder.

Other than that, I’m enjoying the series very much.

I agree, r184. There is no way that putty nosed kid grew up to be the older version of Aemond.

As anyone read this book? Does it actually get more interesting ?

I didn’t read the book, or books?, but I thought the latest episode was rather shocking and made clear that Alicent the Not So Innocent knows the full extent of what Larys is willing to do to keep close to power and the price SHE pays to have him do her dirty work. Eww. It seems there were quite a few sparrows spying for the concubine. The entire privy counsel is corrupt and was plotting against the King and Rhaenyra save for one. And Criston proved that he is truly the Queen’s Luca Brazzi. What a poon licking asshole. Great hour of television.

What was the deal with the house on fire???

I believe it was madame's chambers. Alicent gave Larys Clubfoot the green light to burn it. Or I got the whole thing wrong. This episode was quite confusing.

Why are you asking this on the thread for two episodes ago rather than the thread for the episode r188?

And the fire was the building that the kids fighting ring was in. Presumably that was Otto keeping his promise to put a stop to it.

R190 You see, that makes a lot more sense than what I have written.

No, the burning building was Mysaria's house, probably done by either Larys or Ser Otto.

Mysaria objected to the kids' fighting ring--she would have nothing to do with it, and tried to get it stopped.

OK. The finale leaked online. HAs anyone seen it? Where can I find it?

R193 Torrent sites like PirateBay? Is this your first time looking for torrents?

Just wait a fucking day to watch it on TV

Some thoughts:

I thought the opening sequence was beautifully shot roaming through the castle (last week’s episode)

I hate the White Worm’s accent. She sounds like she has a speech impediment, lovely as she is.

Is Helaena married to Aegon? Are those little blondes their kids? I was confused at her toast on the previous episode when they were around the table and she said he(?) pays attention to her when he is drunk. Am I reading this wrong or is it incest?

I love Princess Rhaenys; she is so noble and wise. Great actress as is Alicent.

I don’t know who I loathe more: Larys or Ser Cole. That scene with Larys and the Queen’s feet is clever making his fetish, feet. It was surprising and creepy.

Ser Cole is just an arrogant , toxic, frat boy who would probably be working on Wall Street if he were alive today.

I love me some Lord Commander Westerling.

The aging of the kids makes ZERO sense. Six years pass and the Strong boys barely age, while their uncles (close in age an episode or 3 back) have cycled from babies, to adolescents/tweens, to fathers and Bond villains, while their nephews are just getting marriages arranged.

The aging of some, not all, is becoming increasingly problematic. Also all of the brother/sister pairings; I could get cousins and second cousins or half nieces/nephews, just open up the gene pool a little. If they can perform crude C-sections , Maesters would have to have some idea about the consequences of inbreeding to extremes.

The dragon bit was surprising, (pardon the lack of specifics I'm trying to avoid spoilers).

Aegon is around 20/21, while Jace and Luke are about 16 and 14. There should be a difference there.

Aemond should be about 17 though, but does seem way older. I'll grant you that.

Yes its following the book.

Fire & Blood: 300 Years Before A Game of Thrones (The Targaryen Dynasty: The House of the Dragon).

Great finale!

In the book, Alicent places her crown upon Helaena’s head and says, “My queen.” I thought it was much more effective to do what the show did, and have Daemon make the gesture to Rhaenyra.

That guy with an eye patch is born to play a villain

One of the most powerful moments is when Luc gets off his mighty dragon Arrax, who makes a nice, weighty thud upon landing Storm's End, dismounts and hears a massive roar behind him only to find that there is a dragon 50 times the size of Arrax already there. Meaning, after all the discussion of how many dragons each side has, we see that in fact, not all dragons are equal, and perhaps pure numbers of dragons is not the advantage the Blacks assume it is.

Also the dragon fight had my heart in my mouth. Best television since GOT itself.

Yes, it was great, but it was also very predictable... it's interesting how they managed to create tension when you already knew deep down what the outcome was going to be.