I don’t like Sondheim musicals

Thread closed

That’s folly, OP.

I’m not saying he has no talent but he’s not the second coming like he’s portrayed. There’s some entertainment there but I just don’t see his work as standing above any other in the last century.

Good for you.

Okay. Thanks for letting us know.

I prefer Jerry Herman and Irving Berlin so I do empathise, OP.

Who sent in this clown?

OP is Richard Rodgers.

Well?

just more of the capitalistic hedgemony of western civilization, colonialism and white people.

let's tear down some statues, burn great books and rename a street.

Well, on this thread we can’t promise that nothin’ gonna hurt you.

calm down r10 this hysteria is only matched by the scare Obama police that were coming to take your guns.

r12 nah, that was with Biden wanting to take our menthols, suvs and guns.

r12 a black man was killed for selling loose rolled cigs, so, do you really want to go there?

I think OP needs a weekend in the country.

Close this thread already.

[quote] Well?

"Well?" what, OP?

Clearly you wanted nothing more than to stir the shit, but, unfortunately for you, no one here cares about your opinion.

Crawl back under your bridge.

Is OP still here!

Garbage troll threads attract garbage troll people.

He was no Meredith Willson!!!

Like many great artists, his later works weren't very good, but his pre-90's output will be revived and studied for years to come. He's not for everyone and never has been, but at least he took a lot more creative risks than several of his contemporaries. They didn't always pay off, but he should be admired for that.

We have 1000 threads bashing Madonna and 100000 bashing Meghan Markle.

Can’t we have have one thread bashing this miserable old hack?

Gypsy was good.

For years you couldn’t say a bad word about this man but now I’m letting it rip. He was arrogant and nasty. He was always, ALWAYS correcting someone. He was condescending and bossy and this is just professionally.

Are you speaking from personal experience R24? Did you work with him?

People always being up west side story which he didn’t write.

I did not work with him and did know him personally but always though his musicals sucked. They took all the joy out of Broadway. Sucked it clean dry.

But the man could make things happen. He was a doer and obviously well placed and connected.

I couldn't agree MORE!!

You gave seen Sweeney Todd and A Little Night Music, right OP?

There are giants in disguise.

Op = Andrew Lloyd-Webber

…and Company?

Troll

I hated Sweeney Todd but again I realize he is beloved and that’s why I’ve always felt forced to keep it in.

Didn’t like company either thought all his musicals would have been better if someone else did them but could have just been a bias after while. Just didn’t float my boat. But I love musicals and consider myself otherwise easy to please.

There is a good song in Sweeney Todd.

You know, since he is so beloved here specifically, and I trust DLs judgment on the whole. So I’ll give them a fresh listen. Especially the ones listed above.

I especially enjoyed Les Miz!

wrong thread r36

[Quote] hedgemony

Oh, dear

I don't like OP's trolling.

So sue me.

Wordy and cloying and too full of himself. Vague generalizations with nothing too specific, so he can freely criticize without having to do any research or have knowledge of the subject. Don't get me wrong, anyone can criticize anything, but to troll without anything to back it up but broad trolling is lazy. He is subpar, considering others have had actual content to share or first-hand experience. He only seems interested in posting a troll headline to upset actual fans who know what they're talking about. Sad.

Did you want a dissertation r39.

Of all the things to troll about. Sorry I offended your god but I’m just not fan of his nor his snooty fans.

Break down ONE SONG. Just one. Let's see what you got.

Sondheim's biggest weakness was his choice of collaborators. Most of them weren't as talented as him. Consequently many of the books don't work: high concept but lacking in drama.

Also thought Hamilton sucked so not all my criticism is unfounded.

We're still waiting for ONE song. Or are you just bullshitting?

R41 All of his songs are too lyric focused and sucks the air out tf the mediocre music that accompanies them. He has always seemed more suited to writing crossword puzzles instead of musicals.

Wow, just generalized defeatist rhetoric. Why are we not surprised.

These Sondheim queens get INCENSED when you question their god of musicals.

Trolling is SO hard...

Keep bumping your thread up, OP--it's amusing to watch you dangling.

(Realize that troll-dar allows us to see each post you contribute as yours.)

“high concept… but”

Exactly.

The only good musical is a dead musical

OP, I 100% agree with you.

His shit got on stage because he must've had one helluva hype man! The tunes are not catchy and the lyrics sound like they could've been written by a middle schooler on the school bus trying to meet a deadline. So much needless repetition and then all the talking/singing over each other! What's the point? It's garbage.

Still waiting on the ONE song...

I don’t like the other guy’s either. The guy with three names.

R53 Sorry, No glory.

I hate all musicals.

And now you know.

[quote]Gypsy was good.

"Gypsy" and "West Side Story" are both great musicals, but they're not "Sondheim musicals." He wrote only the lyrics for both.

R52 = Jerry Herman

I thought his Annie was spectacular! So dark and moody, especially at the end when the Nazi take her away.

For r53

R57 Those are exceptions. The two musicals you named have music by someone else. I would not consider those true Sondheim musicals. In most of Sondheim's work he did the music and the lyrics and that shit is terrible!

R26 - “ People always being up west side story which he didn’t write.”

Sondheim wrote the lyrics to WSS. Leonard Bernstein wrote the music.

I prefer Jerry Herman.

like before high school musical and glee musicals were like totally irrelevant. this is where they started to get gud after the boomers started to od.

R23

Sondheim wrote only the lyrics.

R26

Sondheim's mentor, Oscar Hammerstein told him that he wouldn't like the job, but he'd learn from the experience. Sondheim didn't get royalties, but Leonard Bernstein offered him a small percentage of his. Sondheim declined. He lost out on millions.

I'm not really a musicals person. I like only what I call the "super musicals" in which almost every song is great: West Side Story, My Fair Lady, The Sound of Music, The Threepenny Opera (if that's considered a musical). I have not been able to get through the streaming version of Hamilton. I think Gypsy is the Great American Musical even if there are songs I'd skip.

I love some Sondheim songs, Being Alive and Send in the Clowns are my favorites. But I don't really appreciate his musicals as complete works. I wish I did, but I just don't respond to them.

It was a pleasure to block R52 into fucking oblivion.

What happened R52? Why the unjustified, waaay out of line spew? Did Sondheim dump you for someone way cuter and way more intelligent and tasteful than you? Spill it, Mary.

Sondheim wrote a significant number of memorable show tunes, and the musicals he either wrote solely or in collaboration are still eagerly performed on stage worldwide. You know nothing about the positive impacts of his body of work.

R33

Sweeney Todd is the worst. [italic]Maybe[/italic] if I'd seen it on Broadway with Angela Lansbury I'd have a better opinion, but I doubt it.

THE WORST PIES IN LONDON!

AND SHE WAS BEAUTIFUL!

Please shut up.

I'm not averse to dark subjects. I love The Threepenny Opera. But its music is beautiful and the lyrics are clever and funny.

R49

So you're taking names and keeping score. Whaddya going to do, show up at OP's house and beat him to death with a Playbill?

Why don't I like musicals? I can't participate in the endless discussions here on DL about musicals. Golden Girls, I was forced to watch a scene by my ex, I just can't get into the show so I can't participate in the endless GG threads. Ditto with Murder, She Wrote.

Those who are screaming against cancel culture are demanding that this thread be closed.

[quote] All the over-the-top praising of his “genius” works have always privately irked me.

Oh dear.

[quote] just more of the capitalistic hedgemony of western civilization, colonialism and white people.

[quote]let's tear down some statues, burn great books and rename a street.

Burn books? You just stole our gig!

[quote] capitalistic hedgemony

Oh dear.

OP, are you the “There, I said it” queen? Is “sue me” your new cliché?

I agree that Sondheim would have benefited from someone to curb his excesses. Gypsy is his BEST work even if he seemed to have disowned it. Sweeney Todd has too much going on, and Into The Woods is just low hanging fruit, but Company and Follies are both amazing. I can see why he might be too much, but I love all his word play and I love how he can fit so many words in one song.

I’m sorry but Sundaybin the park… and Into the woods we’re crap. Just crap.

"The woods are just trees. The trees are just wood."

Genius!

There are giants in disguise! Even more brilliant!

R68 You are so completely full of shit! If you blocked me then why are you asking me questions? You're such a fucking liar!

Why are you so butt hurt over my comments? Is Sondheim your god? Nothing he wrote solely is worth the paper it was written on. It is complete trash. And his works as a whole are garbage. They don't really say anything worth hearing. He seems more interested in showing off his vocabulary than telling well constructed stories through music. He makes simple concepts unnecessarily complicated. His messages are so pedantic. There is nothing exciting about his works unless maybe you are a little old lady who doesn't get out and has a very limited perspective on what life is.

Honey you are a sad sack. Go back to your knitting circle and leave theater to people who understand what it is supposed to be. You clearly have poor taste and low expectations in entertainment.

"The art of a making arrrrrrrrrt...

IS PUTTING IT TOGETHER!"

Sublime

This thread isn't going to go anywhere until you offer up what musicals you thought were better than any single one of Sondheim's... for the crowd to drag their talons across.

Most Sondheim musicals are better than Hamilton. I'll give him that.

OP, apparently you just haven't been Sondheim-ized well.

I didn't understand the hullabaloo about Sondheim until I was able to take a class in college that focused on his works. What a revelation! I'm a huge fan now--although even I admit his second acts suffer. Sweeney Todd is his masterpiece, but it's been overproduced.

R86 Ugh, a whole class, that sounds a bit much even for a Sondheim aficionado.

R86 So you now like Sondheim because you went to a class and someone explained to you why you should like it? I'm pretty sure that is not the intent of any artist (Sondheim included).

R88, No, it's more that I didn't know much about his work as an artform and actually hadn't seen many of his shows.

The class allowed me to dissect his work and understand its genius--like we do with Shakespeare in English classes. You can enjoy both Sondheim and Shakespeare at a basic level or you can delve deeper, if interested, to gain more insight about the individual parts that make it run.

OP I get where you are coming from because other than Sweeney Todd I could have cared less for him but spending time in the Theatre gossip thread and forcing myself to watch boots of Company and ALNM I have grown to see that the glowing words these theatre queens slather over him are deserved.

It was the Company production starring Neil Patrick Harris and the ALNM with Bernadette that sold me. The ITW at the Hollywood Bowl made that piece accessible for me. I don't love Into The Woods but I did enjoy it and will spend some time watching the pro shot with the original cast in order to see if I can grow in appreciation.

Give his works a chance, they may not ever grow on you but maybe you will appreciate them after spending some time.

It doesn’t seem to be online anymore, but there was a wonderful and the most accessible version of Into the Woods done outside at Regent Park, here’s the trailer. I thought if I ever see it again it would be best done outside like this.

^^^ I should have added that the new Broadway production clips I’ve seen online it looks abysmal, hardly any costuming or setting and mishmash, visually distracting. If I’m paying that much for tickets better look nexts to flawless, not like the Salvation Army is put it on.

R86/ R89

You said earlier:

[Quote]I didn't understand the hullabaloo about Sondheim until I was able to take a class in college that focused on his works. What a revelation! I'm a huge fan now

You initially said you were not a fan at all of his work until you took the class. Now it sounds like you are saying you already liked him but like him more after the class. Those are two different things.

It's ok to change your mind, but that's clearly not what you said initially.

I think his work is trash, but obviously others (like yourself) enjoy it and that is fine. That is what art is about. It is subjective.

I watched some of the [italic]Into the Woods[/italic] film and it was totally insufferable HOWEVER there was one properly great little moment when Meryl's witch sings

[italic]You're so nice. You're not good, you're not bad, you're just 'nice'. I'm not good, I'm not nice, I'm just right. I'm the witch, you're the world.[/italic]

Perfect delivery by Meryl, in her acidic Jessica Lovejoy voice, and a line with a great meaning to it, but everything else was an absolute nightmare.

R90

I saw the TV version of Company with Neil Patrick Harris. He didn't have the voice for it. The Dean Jones and Raúl Esparza versions of Being Alive are far superior. NPH is a name from TV so he gets cast, but from what I've seen, he's not a spectacularly talented musical theater actor.

R95 NPH was horrible in Company. They also had Stephen Colbert in it trying to sing. Gosh he was awful. Both of them need to stick to comedy. But for the extraordinary talents of Patti Lupone and Anika Noni Rose that whole thing woulda been a flop!

[quote]Those are exceptions. The two musicals you named have music by someone else. I would not consider those true Sondheim musicals. In most of Sondheim's work he did the music and the lyrics and that shit is terrible!

Thank you for pointing out what I had already pointed out as though you had somehow corrected me, R61.

R57 R97 I was agreeing with you. You stupid bitch!

R66 you have that story wrong about Sondheim’s royalties on West Side Story. At some point Leonard Bernstein offered him a higher percentage because Sondheim wrote most of the lyrics, but Sondheim very unwisely said no thanks. But he most certainly did get royalties from the show.

" offered him a higher percentage because Sondheim wrote most of the lyrics, but Sondheim very unwisely said no thanks"

He ended up with plenty of money. What else would he do with more? Buy another rack for his dungeon?

The problem with a lot of Sondheim shows is that he writes for what the librettist offers him. If they write a flat scene between a feuding married couple, he can only do so much to make it come alive and he usually does so by delving into their heads and vomiting out all the nuanced, complicated, and contradictory things we feel as humans. He's usually a better dramaturg than his book writers. His work is always wonderful and deep and trying to hold a mirror to society, but it's usually surrounded by scripts and characters that don't come to life unless they're singing. It can make the shows themselves a slog to get through. This is why Gypsy and Sweeney Todd are two of his all-around best shows. They have the best books.

He's so specific to the character and the moment in the story that it's very difficult to isolate his songs from the shows themselves which makes him a tough sell. Someone can sing "If He Walked Into My Life", "Seasons of Love", or "Memory" away from their respective shows and still be able to conjure up an audience's feelings and imaginations, but it'd be hard to do the same with "Barcelona" or "Moments in the Woods" no matter how winning those songs are within the context of their shows. A few have been able to stand on their own, but not many.

[quote] You initially said you were not a fan at all of his work until you took the class. Now it sounds like you are saying you already liked him but like him more after the class. Those are two different things.

No, I said I didn't know much about his work before the class. I explained that I didn't understand the hullabaloo and hadn't seen much of his works. I never said I wasn't a fan--I was indifferent.

The reason I even took the class was to understand his work and why he was given such accolades.

I never got into Sondheim, and I always loved musicals. His lyrics are ok (not that great) but his music is just not to my taste. I saw a couple of his shows - A Little Night Music, and Sweeney Todd. Just don't like his music, I actually have an aversion to it and can't enjoy it.

I love Sondheim, but hated his last musical "Bounce" or whatever it was renamed to when I heard the recording. It seemed like he was creatively out of steam at that point.

[quote] I never got into Sondheim, and I always loved musicals. His lyrics are ok (not that great) but his music is just not to my taste. I saw a couple of his shows - A Little Night Music, and Sweeney Todd. Just don't like his music, I actually have an aversion to it and can't enjoy it.

He makes more sense when watching a show live. I have a hard time imagining a show just by listening to a recording

I’ve just realized I’ve never owned a cast album from one of his shows, despite having a variety of them from other musicals.

Into The Woods...boring.

The new incarnation in Bway is actually the best Ive seen

R105 I agree with that. I enjoyed those shows, to some degree. I had a boyfriend a long time ago who loved Sondheim and played stuff like Anyone Can Whistle in the car (cassettes, in those days, that he recorded from albums). I didn't outright hate his songs but I (mostly) don't enjoy them or relate to them. Then years later I had a boss who loved Sondheim and used to play the songs in her office. We had a friendly arguing relationship about it.

Honestly, the most I’ve listened to his recorded music is Streisand on her Broadway Albums, she was a good ambassador for him with those.

R81’s post completely verified his critics comments, lol.

At 91, almost three decades after his last success., e died absolutely beloved. He outlived most of his peers, found love (twice) late in life, and was recognized as preeminent in his field.

On his death - there was spontaneous mourning and celebration. His work continued to be produced and filmed.

It’s hard to imagine a life lived more successfully. Even if some anonymous Dataloungers are confused by augmented fourths and like to giggle about dungeons.

Great stuff: Gypsy, West Side Story, Sweeney Todd, Follies, A Little Night Music

OK stuff: Into the Woods, Company, Assassins

Boooring: Pacific Overtures, Sunday in the Park with George, Passion, Merrily We Roll Along

"Pacific Overtures" is one of his best.

I am one of the apparent few who really enjoyed that last revival of Pacific Overtures

I saw the original casts of Sweeny Todd, Sunday in the Park with George and Into the Woods. If you saw any other verson they mostly pale in comparison. The performers need to be up to the level of the martial. Then they're incredible.

Who here loves the Frogs ?

OP is community college trash.

Also, there are way too many revivals of Sondheim musicals and I hope that wanes as time goes on.

[quote]Who here loves the Frogs ?

I don't like anything Nathan Lane was in.

I saw the Frogs at the Lincoln Center the one day Nathan Lane's understudy was on. Lane can elevate almost anything with his schtick. Without him, the show sucked

His Prince musicals were mostly great. Unfortunately, the Lapine musicals have unnecessary 2nd acts and are too preachy. I got sick of Into the Woods with characters running on stage to tell us what they've learned.

"Into the Woods" is a perfect show.

"Sunday in the Park with George" has a bad second act.

"Passion" had an interesting idea but was a tedious show.

"Sweeny Todd" was his best show.

One of the few things I really like about Sondheim is that he loved the Vincente Minnelli/Judy Garland non-musical, The Clock.

It’s funny how the 26 W&Ws likely come from OP refreshing the page and upvoting himself.

Aside from everything else, OP, most of Sondheim's musicals are very different from each other -- e.g., COMPANY as compared to A LITTLE NIGHT MUSIC as compared to PACIFIC OVERTURES as compared to SWEENEY TODD, etc. -- so your lumping them all together and declaring that you don't like any of them marks you as a reactionary fool.

R125 One of them came from me, and I'm not the OP.

R126 I don't get this comment. They're all by Sondheim. If you don't like Sondheim you wouldn't like them. Oklahoma is different from The King And I. Annie Get Your Gun is different from Call Me Madam. But if you don't like the songwriters, you probably won't like their shows.

R128, what I means was that if different shows are written in very different styles, as are COMPANY and SWEENEY TODD (for example), I think it's it's an immature, anti-intellectual statement and a gross generalization for someone to say that they don't like any of them. It's arguably a different story with the Rodgers & Hammerstein musicals or the Lerner & Loewe musicals or the Jerry Herman musicals, which I would say are written in the same general style despite their differences.

R129 Okay - I don't see how Oklahoma and The King And I are written in the same style at all. But I will give you that point.

But if someone doesn't like any of Sondheim's shows, then they don't like them. I don't think it necessarily means the statement is immature or anti-intellectual. It's a matter of personal taste. You have to accept it when someone's tastes differ from yours.

My fey obviously-closeted Sondheim-devotee older cousin has literally stopped talking to me because I once remarked that the only Sondheim I like is PASSION as I personally related to it (being an unfuckable reclusive neurotic bitch) and also I thought it was a high-camp tragicomedy (it's not).

bitch troll

R95 'Being Alive' is such a sweet and memorable and well-crafted song, but does make me uncomfortably self-conscious about being Forever Alone.

The version I've heard that's moved the most is probably John Lloyd Young's. He was never in Company afaik, just sung the number in a couple of benefits.

I’ll sue you

[quote]If someone doesn't like any of Sondheim's shows, then they don't like them. I don't think it necessarily means the statement is immature or anti-intellectual. It's a matter of personal taste. You have to accept it when someone's tastes differ from yours

Fine, but if someone states that they don't like ANY of Sondheim's shows, I suspect that they really didn't give them a chance. They probably heard a few songs they didn't like and then decided, "I don't like Sondheim at all." In my opinion, it's immature and foolish to do that. Because even if, for example, someone doesn't like some of Sondheim's songs because they feel the wordplay is too self-consciously clever, or whatever, how does that prevent them from liking "Nothing's Gonna Harm You" or "Not a Day Goes By" or 'Someone is Waiting?"

"....Great stuff: Gypsy, West Side Story, Sweeney Todd, Follies, A Little Night Music....")

I have to include SUNDAY IN THE PARK, which I love.

Best story (and Urban Legend) : Larry Kert was struggling in rehearsals for his takeover in COMPANY. He shouted out, "Who do I have to fuck to get out of this show?" Answer (legend says Sondheim): "The same person you fucked to get into it."

Not true, r66. Of course Sondheim got royalties for WSS--he got 1% and Bernstein got 3. Bernstein subsequently offered to give Sondheim 1 percent of his since SS wrote virtually all the lyrics.

As for the rest of you: big yawn.

Someone really should re-stage Passion in the style of a John Waters camp comedy. It might finally work. I love Sondheim, but I can't warm to that show at all.

musicals are for fags

that was terrible,, r133

R133 Being Alive is whiny

I don't like Sondheim musicals either.

I don't like ice cream, puppies or kittens.

OP et al., WHO CARES???

Poor Sondheim Trolls. To be constantly barraged by Sondheim songs over and over on TV, radio, Instawhatever, and tripping off the lips of their tricks while fucking. Will they ever find peace?

[quote]I don't like ice cream, puppies or kittens.

I don't like spiders and snakes.

I like blue.

[quote]To be constantly barraged by Sondheim songs over and over on TV, radio, Instawhatever

R145 I can honestly say I have never been "constantly barraged" by Sondheim songs, in any media. You have a highly exaggerated idea of the ubiquity of Sondheim's music.

Poor unfortunate trolls In pain, in need This one longing to be clever That one wants to get the goat And do I block them? Yes, indeed Those poor unfortunate trolls So sad, so blue They come flocking to my website Crying, "Likes, Muriel, please!" Do I help them! With their poo Now it's happened once or twice Some troll couldn't give advice And I'm afraid I had to block them and their goals Now I've had some snide complaints But in their holes I've flushed their taints For those poor. Un-for-tunate trolls...

[quote]I hated Sweeney Todd but...

But I imagine you're a big fan of Les Miz, right?

I love Sondheim, seen 'em all and r113 nails it.

Why is one considered a "troll" if they don't like Sondheim, in a thread about not liking Sondheim?

Now you see why I kept my mouth shut. Jeez the hatred that comes out Sondheim stans is something else.

R141

I don't like John Lloyd Young's version, but Being Alive is not whiney. It's a terrifying song because it's so honest about what it means to be close to someone: one person who knows everything about you.

There are so few Sondheim songs that are well known or popular outside of New York, or musical comedy circles. I mean known to non-fans of musicals. Send In The Clowns was probably the only popular Sondheim song ever, other than the ones someone else wrote the music to. By contrast, many people still know some Rodgers & Hammerstein or Lerner & Lowe songs, Irving Berlin, Cole Porter, and yes, Jerry Herman.

*Loewe

Isn’t it rich?

What hatred, OP/r153? Expressing an opinion contrary to yours doesn't carry a lot of emotional baggage.

So wait, r155: the "standard" or whatever you want to call it, is how well known a songwriter's songs are outside New York? Isn't that a little ridiculous?

I don’t like Mondays, but I also don’t shoot the whole day down, nor post about it on DL.

R158 I don't know how to answer this. I'm not sure what was a little ridiculous. I didn't claim anything was a standard. I wasn't saying he should be judged on how well known his songs are, outside New York. I was just saying they aren't well known outside New York (they probably aren't that well known inside New York, either - they just aren't well known. Other than by musical comedy fans). Maybe the question we should ask is, why aren't they? I

[quote]I don’t like Mondays, but I also don’t shoot the whole day down, nor post about it on DL.

R159 Over the years there have been immumerable threads about how much all of you love Sondheim, about who was better in what role, in which revival, etc. Why do you think it's okay to post about liking something, hundreds, thousands of timess, but it's terrible for someone to post one thread about not liking Sondheim musicals? How intolerant can you get?

Many folks don’t like opera either. Philistines !!

Some of his stuff doesn’t do anything for me, but he’s written plenty of songs that I think are brilliant, like this one

Being Alive is so overdone. So over it.

Sondheim's songs are less well known than those from the Golden Age because most of them are so specifically tied to the characters and situation of the script that they are less adaptable outside it whereas the earlier songwriters wrote songs purposely more easily excerpted for the popular music performance of the day.

As a lyricist he was superb. But as a composer his only score with a rich and true melody was '...Forum'. And since that was his only score to have it I wonder if he was actually its composer.

He’s overrated musically and Jerry Herman knew it

Only I have big box office

Liza and The Pet Shop Boys ensured 'Losing My Mind' had an airing beyond the cognoscenti of New York.

Pacific Overtures - Someone in a Tree

"Someone in a Tree" is a study of history and how it is perceived initially and interpeted over time. When Commodore Perry and his men meet with Japanese officials to devise a treaty that will open up the isolationist Japan for trading purposes, history plays out. Instead of showing us the drama unfolding inside the treaty house, Sondheim chooses to start the song from the point of view of an old man remembering how he watched the meeting from a tree outside the treaty house. Soon, his younger self, a ten-year-old boy, leaps into the tree and the two sing with each other, arguing about the details of the story. Time and embellishment have made the old man's story inconsistent with what the boy observes, and he in turn has a very naive view of what is happening. Age, experience, knowledge and hindsight color and shade how we see events and remember them. As if this weren't fascinating enough, a warrior appears from under the treaty house and relates his perspective, only able to hear what is going on. Can the boy assess the situation clearly without audio context? Can the warrior make accurate inferences without visual cues? The story becomes more fleshed out for the audience, but each storyteller is contradicting the other two in the trio because they don't have all the information. There is a side to every story, and no version is the complete or succinct telling. History is not just facts. History is perspective.

Another theme that threads in and out of the fabric of "Someone in a Tree" is the palpable need embedded in all of us to be a part of history, to feel that we are in some way more involved in important moments than we, in reality, are. Sondheim addresses this same compulsion to lesser effect in "How I Saved Roosevelt" from Assassins (1991). The characters want to think that, if they hadn't been there, the outcome may not have been the same. "Someone in a Tree", in its catchy refrain, then manages to telescope out and remind us that this moment is only one small grain of sand in the great scheme of things. "Not the building, but the beam. Not the garden but the stone." It is Sondheim's abilty to offer so many perspectives in one song and have them all coincide within the realm of plausible fact that make this song one of the most compelling, complex, and insightful pieces ever written for the musical theatre.

R160 Because threads in celebration and love are uplifting and pleasant, hate threads are vile, especially about tearing down a man who is yet not dead in the grave a year.

R168, "Losing My Mind" is a diegetic, pastiche song and, as such, is easily understood outside of the show.

I've seen nearly everything he did as live theatre (except Pacific Overtures) and the film verions don't reflect the brilliance of the stage productions. Into the Woods is pretty dreadful as a movie, as is Sweeney Todd, while both shine on the stage, and both lend themselves to new and innovative productions, as does Follies.

The recent revival of Company in London with the gender switch and gay couple (haven't seen its NY version) was amazing. Worth traveling to see.

Weakest: Passion (there is none in the show), Assassins. I've never cared much for A Little Night Music, not very interesting characters or plot, if you can call it that.

Merrily is tuneful and interesting when performed in the original "backwards" version. Revival soon on Broadway. But it's a small show.

Wish I had met him 45 years ago, I'd have inherited a lovely townhouse and fortune!

[quote]Sondheim's songs are less well known than those from the Golden Age because most of them are so specifically tied to the characters and situation of the script that they are less adaptable outside it whereas the earlier songwriters wrote songs purposely more easily excerpted for the popular music performance of the day.

A very astute observation. And to clarify a bit further: Broadway music and pop music became divorced somewhere around the late 1960s, and except for ....FORUM, all of the shows for which Sondheim wrote both music and lyrics came after that. If Broadway songs had continued to be intertwined with "pop" music through the 1970s, I'm sure many Sondheim songs would have become pop hits: "Being Alive," "Someone is Waiting," "Nothing's Gonna Harm You," "Pretty Women," "Not a Day Goes By," "Good Thing Going," etc., etc.

[quote]As a lyricist he was superb. But as a composer his only score with a rich and true melody was '...Forum'. And since that was his only score to have it I wonder if he was actually its composer.

Well, that comment definitely wins you the Troll of the Century award.

Didn’t Liza have a big hit with Losing My Mind? Or Barbra chart off the Broadway Album with some of his songs?

If u want Sondheim perfection, listen to Cleo Laines album

We are so, so sorry for the torture that trolls R152 and R153 have had to endure. Here's a simple tune for you to easily digest.

I think r160/OP expected everyone who doesn't agree to just let his comment sit there, unanswered. Disagreement=intolerance, right?

I think Sondheim was worth only a few million when he died. He never had hit musicals.

Well, there you have it. R181 wins.

Yes, the point of art is to make money.

Fucking Idiots R181, R182

I'm pretty sure that R182 was being sarcastic.

R177. For you...

His estate was estimated at $75m.

ALW is a billionaire.

Sondheim had something Webber will never have

Enough money

R182 was indeed being sarcastic.

I find it fascinating that as someone who doesn't like Sondheim, I've never said he wasn't an artist or was terrible, or without talent or merit, I just stated that I, personally, don't like him. And that his songs have never been very popular with the general public. And for that, I have gotten called a "troll" (for no reason) and it has been suggested that children's nursery rhymes are my level of taste. And I didn't even start the thread.

It's so weird to me that people are so invested in this guy that they freak out if anyone suggests they don't enjoy his shows or music. Are you related to him?

R191, if someone were to state that they don't like Sondheim's work the way you did in this post, that would be one thing, but in my opinion, the language used by the OP is insulting and inflammatory. Hence the strong reactions of so many people who posted here.

I love most all of Sondheim’s shows but I detest Passion. It’s about mental illness, not passion

"especially about tearing down a man who is yet not dead in the grave a year."

I don't get this. Can dead people still hear you for the first year after they die? Do they get increasingly deaf or far away as time passes from their death?

[quote] I love most all of Sondheim’s shows but I detest Passion. It’s about mental illness, not passion

R193 exactly, which is why imo it is only meant for the weird friendless unfuckable bitches to understand and appreciate. It has niche misfit appeal.

[quote]Didn’t Liza have a big hit with Losing My Mind?

On the Dance Singles chart Losing My Mind was #11 in 1989.

you're such a turd, r195.

And you are a normie dear R197. Enjoy your fiftieth viewing of Company!

I thought Hello Dolly is great.

[quote]"especially about tearing down a man who is yet not dead in the grave a year."

FWIW, Sondheim stated at least once that he thought it was okay to criticize the work of artists after thy are dead but not while they are still alive. I'm not saying I agree with him, but that is what he said. So, according to his own perspective, it's fine for people who don't like his work to express that opinion now that he's deceased, and they should not feel they have to wait a bit longer to do so.

R135 R175 the title of the song is Not While I’m Around, you dizzy queen.

The reason Sondheim fans are defensive is because of the lengths to which his non-fans will go out of their way to offer unnecessary and often uninformed criticism.

Sondheim’s work is not being forced on anyone unless you are in a theater department. His work has undisputable respect - many critics consider him one of the great American regardless of genre.

If you don’t like Shakespeare or Albee or Kushner or Stoppard, fine. You don’t have to see their work. In fact, feel free to champion artists and make a case for their greatness.

But starting a thread about why you are so special - that your opinions on almost universally well regarded artists are so noteworthy and you have seen through the hype! - is narcissistic.

And yes, criticizing art is fair game, but the criticism basically a variant on “tldr” and “math is hard.”

Sondheim once said that hating someone’s work is a lazy opinion. The work you love says more about you.

[quote]Starting a thread about why you are so special - that your opinions on almost universally well regarded artists are so noteworthy and you have seen through the hype! - is narcissistic.

Agreed, unless the person starting the thread takes the time to intelligently articulate WHY they dislike the work of a universally well-regarded artist. But that is rarely the case.

[quote]Sondheim once said that hating someone’s work is a lazy opinion. The work you love says more about you.

I think I know what he meant by this, but I don't fully agree. Again, if someone can intelligently articulate why they "hate" the work of an artist, I don't think that's a lazy opinion. Yes, if someone says "I hate Sondheim" or "I hate Andrew Lloyd Webber" without any explanation, that's lazy. But I guess it would also be lazy to say "I love Sondheim" or "I love ALW" without explaining at all.

“I hate Andrew Lloyd Webber, but I have cause”

I rarely have anyone whose work I dislike altogether. Even ALW has good tunes.

Well, I nailed “Being Alive” at Carnegie Hall during the 1992 celebration for Sondheim. So, there…

Seem like this is a stealth Sondheim appreciation thread...another one.

R203 I don't see the big deal. Why does someone have to intelligently articulate why they don't like Sondheim? Isn't it just because you think Sondheim is somehow this extra-worthy figure that is above simple dislike? I'm sure there are composers you just don't care for, and, if pressed, would call some choice names. It's just so funny how Sondheim is this exalted figure that one has to be sensitive and articulate about criticizing.

There are many composers I’m not fond of, but not one (not even Wagner) whom I would bother to write a hate thread about.

I’m not a big fan of Jonathan Larson, but if need be I can put together a number of cognizant reasons why.

I don’t like any musicals from the last decade

Name from memory five musicals written in the last decade.

I’ll give you “Hamilton”

Fun Home, Come From Away, Groundhog Day, Dear Evan Hansen, Mean Girls.

[quote] I don’t like any musicals from the last decade

An interesting but odd statement to make on a thread about a composer who didn’t have a new show produced in the last decade.

I was asking r211, not you, r213

Of course theater fans can name five, but you’re not the one claiming not to like any musicals of the last decade.

How come U2 never did another musical?

The same reason Paul Simon and Sting never did a second musical

His songs can be too cute by half.

[quote][R203] I don't see the big deal. Why does someone have to intelligently articulate why they don't like Sondheim? Isn't it just because you think Sondheim is somehow this extra-worthy figure that is above simple dislike? I'm sure there are composers you just don't care for, and, if pressed, would call some choice names. It's just so funny how Sondheim is this exalted figure that one has to be sensitive and articulate about criticizing.

As I specifically and clearly wrote: If someone simply states "I don't like Sondheim's work" or "I don't like Andrew Lloyd Webber's work" without explanation, that's very lazy criticism and pretty much worthless. This doesn't only apply to Sondheim. I'm sorry that your reading comprehension skills are so poor.

Sweeney Todd was Sondheim's last great musical. Into the Woods and Sunday in the Park with George were too boring to be considered great.

I think he knew that he'd lost his touch with Assassins because he never wrote another one after that.

R220, your Amateur Hour factual errors make it hard to even consider your opinion on two works that each won multiple awards and have each been revived twice on Broadway.

They will revive anything. Good or bad. That’s not a alone enough to say a show is good or not. They will revive stinkers from time to time just for the glory and buzz.

[quote]They will revive stinkers from time to time just for the glory and buzz.

Yes, nothing bestows more glory than reviving a stinker.

R212 The fact that someone can’t name musicals from the last decade speaks volume on their quality.

R224 the dearth isn't even specific to or the fault of the 2010s, easy though it is to say.

Imo the last accomplished, ambitious and epic musical premiere was ELIZABETH...in 1992. And to this day that show doesn't even have a book in English.

Sondheim, much like opera, is NOT for the masses.

And of course that explains the OP's reaction to his shows.

[quote] The fact that someone can’t name musicals from the last decade speaks volume on their quality.

It speaks volumes of the quality of the person with the so-called “opinion”

[quote]so-called "opinion"

i:e, opinion

If I say I hate Paris and I’ve never been to Paris, my opinion on Paris would be meaningless

As someone may already have pointed out, your opinion of Paris not having seen it would tell us nothing about Paris but a lot about you. Get it, OP?

Rain on the roof

R219 Okay, you proved you're rude. Whatever. The person who started the thread DID state reasons why he didn't like Sondheim, though.

Broadway is so insular there are probably a lot of good musicals that we will never see. Once it was decided that everything has to be a juke box musical, or have a pre-existing license, it just made it worse.

Would love to see a return to original musicals based on an original story.

Or at least based on some obscure book.

[Quote] Sondheim, much like opera, is NOT for the masses.

I don’t think so at all. His work can be appreciated at all levels. They are entertaining at their basic levels and intellectually stimulating at their higher levels

Sondheim didn't like your musicals either, OP.

I love a Gershwin tune.

How about you?

R235 Or some famous book.

How’s comes he never put together a Jukebox musical?

R240 Sondheim On Sondheim.

R240 A revue, not a jukebox musical, but I guess I misunderstood the question.

both Putting it Together and Marry Me a Little have something of a story

In fairness, it was a pretty stupid question.

It was obviously in the guise of Cletus had he heard of Broadway, and the Sondheimites fell for it...

I swear, there are those on this board who don’t understand the concept of facetiousness.

There are those who don't understand their own pretentiousness.

And there are those who don't understand the last three comments.

Poor R248, left in the dark again.

[quote] I don’t think so at all. His work can be appreciated at all levels. They are entertaining at their basic levels and intellectually stimulating at their higher levels

I agree with you about some of his work, like Gypsy and West Side Story and Into the Woods.

I don't think Follies or Pacific Overtures or Sunday in the Park with George or Passion appeal much to the masses.

I generally agree, R250. All of those shows you listed in your second sentence have elements that work against mass appeal.

Follies has mass gay appeal

Shows appealing to the lowest common denominator have left Broadway in its current sorry state.

R253 Well, technically Phantom of the Opera hadn’t left yet, but it’s on its way.

I think Sondheim tried to expand the boundaries of American musical theatre.

[quote]I think Sondheim tried to expand the boundaries of American musical theatre.

Which have shrunk considerably in recent years.

I like the idea of Sweeney Todd, just not the music in Sweeney Todd.

Different strokes, I guess. Sweeney Todd is a bleak and hopeless story, but it freed Sondheim to write some of his most beautiful music in his career. Pretty Women, Johanna, Not While I’m Around are gorgeous, but the quartet in Kiss Me and the choral segment in God That’s Good after he gets his chair. When you add in the comic numbers and the really dark songs (My Friends, Epiphany), it’s hard to imagine a better score for a musical.

Sondheim is not my favorite. I can appreciate the complexity and energy, but I tend to find the results ugly and off-putting. Sweeney Todd worked when the New York Opera mounted it, but even then it was a near thing...and that number with the girl singing to the caged birds remained fingernails-on-a-blackboard levels of awful. I remember seeing a televised production with Lansbury in it and she and the male lead were both wonderful.

"Send in the Clowns" has always struck me as pure hokum. Maybe because I loathe clowns, and assume the reason they're there is to kill and eat me.

I love modern classical composers such as Bartok, but Sondheim just rattles me for some reason.

[quote]"Send in the Clowns" has always struck me as pure hokum. Maybe because I loathe clowns, and assume the reason they're there is to kill and eat me.

I hope you realize this sentence alone indicates that all of your opinions are worthless.

Sorry to offend your sensibilities, Bozo. Or are you Happy Harry Hobo, the Littlest Homeless Person, holding back your inner tears to bring a smile to face of Little Timmy?

"Send in the Clowns" is a shmaltzy, saggy, drippy piece of shit - does that nail it down a little more clearly for you?

Have you seen the song in the show, r261? I thought it was sappy until I actually saw a production. The difference is that you see a woman’s hope get crushed in real time, as opposed to Judy Collins’ emo lilting about getting dumped.

[quote] I’m sorry but Sundaybin the park… and Into the woods we’re crap. Just crap.

How can we doubt insights so eloquently put?

(To be honest ITW is my least favorite. But I’d still take it over most other musicals any day.)

Sondheim himself could be dismissive about 'Clowns', no doubt annoyed that it won too much acclaim in the mainstream while other gems were comparatively neglected.

Still, Dame Judi Dench sang it at SS's 80th birthday celebration Prom in London, and it was indeed unforgettably good. Sometimes songs are justifiably revered.

I used to think Send in the Clowns was schmaltz until I saw it in the show itself and it broke my heart. I've never heard a version outside of the show that's done that. Mainly because I don't think most people who sing it know what they're singing about.

The same thing happened with "Everything's Coming Up Roses." I grew up hearing the song, but it wasn't until I saw it in the show itself that I realized how scary and disturbing that song could be.

This is probably why Sondheim had so few popular songs. Even the ones you can isolate from their shows of origin don't have the same impact without the context of the show surrounding them.

R62, I confess I have only ever heard it outside of the show.

Even when the song is heard outside of the context of the show, I don't think there's anything remotely "schmaltzy" or "sappy" about "Send in the Clowns." What is it with you people?

How is this not just another Sondheim appreciation thread? I want to read about why people don't like his stuff, now why they do.

*not

"Send in the Clowns" only works in the context of the show. Everything leads up to Desiree and Frederick being alone and she makes a proposal to him. He declines the invite - she discovers she's overplayed her hand.

Even more than that, Frederick interrupts the song and then Desiree concludes.

You then need to see how the show ends in order to hear the song's reprise, which between the two lovers is humorous and knowing. The two lovers have found and have each other.

I don't really care for his music either, but his lyrics are good. I like Gypsy and West Side Story. It's a pity he doesn't care for them, I think it's his best work.

[quote]"Send in the Clowns" only works in the context of the show.

It's fine to say that you feel the song works better in the context of the show than out of context, but not at all true to say that it "only works in the context of the show." Why do so many people insist on stating everything in absolutes? It's so damned simple-minded and annoying to do that.

Hearing "Send in the Clowns" totally out of context, with no knowledge of A LITTLE NIGHT MUSIC whatsoever, anyone with a heart and even half a brain should still be able to understand that it's a song about two potential lovers who are not lovers because their lives and emotions are not in sync.

The only problem with Send In The Clowns is its treacly, weak melody. But the poetry of the lyrics more than make up for it.

[quote]I like Gypsy and West Side Story. It's a pity he doesn't care for them, I think it's his best work.

I'm guessing you think they're his best work because he didn't write the music. Can you see why maybe Sondheim didn't consider them his best work?

Yes R274. I don't like any of the music he's written but I do like a lot of his lyrics. I'm not sure why he doesn't like Gypsy but he said he thought the lyrics in West side story were silly considering they were supposed to be teenaged street thugs.

And why didn't they talk that Shakespeare talk?

R272, I say that because I've listened to singers "sing" SITC - and for me, it just doesn't work. The song needs context - the plot of the play. I wonder how many people even understand the meaning of the phrase "send in the clowns"? More than singing, the song needs to be acted. Here's Lansbury singing & acting SITC - as close to a solo performance that makes the song work as possible - and yes, just my opinion, but I don't think I'm wrong.

[quote]I say that because I've listened to singers "sing" SITC - and for me, it just doesn't work. The song needs context - the plot of the play. I wonder how many people even understand the meaning of the phrase "send in the clowns"? More than singing, the song needs to be acted. Here's Lansbury singing & acting SITC - as close to a solo performance that makes the song work as possible - and yes, just my opinion, but I don't think I'm wrong.

People not understanding what "send in the clowns" means is a separate issue, one that has been rehashed over and over, but for those who don't know the meaning of the phrase, it isn't any clearer when the song is sung in context than when it's sung out of context.

I just saw that Lansbury performance yesterday for the first time, and I actually found it disappointing because (1) the song is severely truncated, and (2) she's not acting it very deeply, probably because she felt it would be inappropriate to do so when singing the song out of context.

Anyway, here's an out-of-context performance that I think works just fine.

To each his own R278. I watched the Bernadette clip... my mind wandered. I find her mannered and stiff - perhaps she's going for minimalism. What I did enjoy was seeing Sondheim as accompanist... not sure how often that happened and Peters was one of his favorites, so I'm sure he enjoyed her interpretation (and that's important).

Whatever, R279. Regardless of how you feel about Bernadette Peters, my point was that "Send in the Clowns" works just fine out of context. There are lots of other versions you can sample via YouTube, if you like, but I'm not going to spend any more of my time linking to them for you.

Gloria Swanson inspired Follies

R281 I always loved looking at this picture in my Grandmother’s Best of Life Magazine coffee table book along with the Empire State Building suicide picture.

"A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum" alone shows how the OP is just a troll.

Or was. Maybe she's no long alive at this point. If it could happen to Steve it could happen to anyone, after all.

Barbra Streisand made him relevant again when she released The Broadway Album in 1985. It was a huge smash and everybody started to talk about Sondheim again. It introduced a whole new generation to his music, most of whom had never heard his songs before. Sondheim was mostly forgotten up until that point, and certainly to anyone under 40.

In many ways, he owed his legendary status to Barbra.

Hardly...

Not true, R281. Prince has said that the photo inspired his concept for the production, but it didn't influence Goldman or Sondheim.

That's ridiculous, r284. Sondheim "owed his legendary status" to his writing.

R284 People under 40 were still listening to Barbra Streisand in 1985?

[quote]People under 40 were still listening to Barbra Streisand in 1985?

If they were gay, yes.

R289 If they were gay men, you mean.

[quote]he had the time to write such wonderful music and GREAT lyrics!

Even in paying tribute to him Barbra's homage is subtly throwing shade, underscoring what many people say about Sondheim's songwriting: his lyrics are more accomplished than his music.

As Irving Berlin once said, "Lyrics will make a song a hit, but the melody is what makes it an evergreen."

[quote]Even in paying tribute to him Barbra's homage is subtly throwing shade, underscoring what many people say about Sondheim's songwriting: his lyrics are more accomplished than his music.

Well, if that's how she feels, then she's as stupid and taste-fee as those "many" other people.

Neither do I, but I do l like specific songs from them.

I’m with OP keep your Soundhiem shit.

Too many notes, my dear Mozart!

We just got tickets for Old Friends with Bernadette and Lea on Broadway!!

OP = Jerry Herman

Same here OP! Too dark and convoluted. Not for me.

And you're going to have a fantastic time, R296. I just saw it in LA on Saturday. It truly was an embarrassment of riches - one brilliant showstopper after another. The cast is amazing, too. Bernadette, bless her, is showing her age vocally (though still as beautiful as ever), but she puts over her material and has wisely given her big standards to others.

I guess haters are always gonna hate, but Sondheim's music will be around long after they are moldy clumps in the ground.

r284: Interestingly, Streisand never recorded any of his songs early in her career. Even though he was enthusiastic about her from the start recommending her to Mary Rodgers as a replacement for the very ill Judy Holliday in HOT SPOT in 1963.

It bothers me that GYPSY is often referred to as a Sondheim show while composer Jules Styne is ignored. Styne is perhaps the most underrated popular song/musical theater composer of the 20th century.

I am sorry Sondheim bowed out of writing the lyrics for FUNNY GIRL. Though Streisand made the score a hit, I find Bob Merrill's lyrics to be pretty third-rate. Comden & Green would have been much better.

Streisand recorded one Sondheim song from Anyone Can Whistle early in her career, but it went unreleased for many years. I can’t remember which one it was, though.

Sondheim sang her praises when she did the Broadway Album with so many of his songs, but when someone sent him a copy of her follow-up Back to Broadway album, with those two big Sunset Boulevard songs, he was very snarky about it. I find that follow-up album almost unlistenable.

Nice Frank Loesser reference, OP.

Me neither. Good lyrics but the same randomn melodies..or lack of melodies.

What I dislike are the countless concerts of Sondheim music under the guise of a "tribute." They all feature the same songs. Sondheim tributes need to be "re-imagined for a contemporary audience."

What about an all-Asian production of " Gypsy" with Lea Salonga as Rose?

Randall Park for Herbie!